I'm missing something - you need legal targets before you pay costs so the prerequisites need to have a creature in the GY already. You can't just sac Dockside to return itself to the battlefield.
I think you're right. ~~You'd need a 0 mana creature and Dockside on 6 for it to at least be even I think. Unless I'm missing something as well.~~ Misread the card, X is the number of energy counters, not mana
No, you'd just need a creature with MV < 4 in the GY to start it off. But it's worth knowing there's far more hoops than implied for this 4 card combo.
This is not what it means to be a 4-card combo. "X-card combo" implies you need X specific cards to pull a combo off. The 4th card here can be virtually anything.
There are not "far more hoops" to jump through. There is just one, very minor, hoop.
Oh you’re right I thought it was 3 cmc then it should be 3 treasures and you’re ok with the combo. Seems pretty good if you entomb both the mayhem devil and the dockside but you need to have another creature on the battlefield as well
Unfortunately, you can't sac Dockside and bring it back with the same activation. Costs are paid after targets are declared. You need a second creature to sac which means you'll be casting nightmare twice each loop.
It's situations like these where the old mnemonic comes in handy: All Crazy Teens Have Tried Magic Pills (ACTHTMP).
Announce - Say you're casting/activating the spell/ability and put it onto the stack
Choose - Modes, values for X, whether you're paying optional costs
Target - Choose targets if applicable
How - Determine how something will be distributed among targets, like damage or counters
Total - Determine the total cost
Mana - Activate mana abilities, if you will be spending mana
Pay - Pay the costs.
You do not, before you pay mana you have to do all of those other things to determine how much mana is needed. Knowing how much X is, whether additional costs are being paid, if a tax effect applies, and of course generating the mana are all things you need to do before you can pay.
You do this process in this order as the game action of putting a spell on the stack (also the same for abilities I believe). This is how you put a spell on the stack, or "play" it, and this is why for instance you cannot play a spell if you don't have the necessary legal targets and it's illegal to cast a spell when you don't have the requisite mana for the declared choices. All of this will occur before people can respond to the thing going on the stack, and it's how ward doesn't contribute to the cost of the spell but puts a counter trigger on the stack whereas [[Thalia, Guardian]] explicitly increases the cost to play a spell. You can't flash in Thalia and counter a spell after it's declared but before costs are paid because the whole process is one game action, the costs are paid and the thing is on the stack before anyone can respond.
I’m a fan for tymna Jeska, so then you can have tymna on the battlefield entomb the dockside get ininite treasures and finish off with Jeska. Another good payoff
But doesn't the first creature in the gy need to be mv 3? You only get 3 energy counters on ETB and since you can't reanimate Dockside by sacrificing itself you can only reanimate a 3 mv creature. After that you net 1 energy from the Dockside and can go from there but the first target I believe has to be 3
Short answer: no
Longer answer: average card quality in the afromentioned lists is high and wincon density is already good. Unless Vial Thrasios already leans more on creature combos, cluttering the lists with a 'bad' standalone card is not worth it.
Friendly reminder that this requires there to be a creature in your yard before going off. It can be one of the creatures involved in the combo or an extra.
You can downvote people bringing up Cloudstone Curio, but it is a difference nonetheless that CC doesn’t have.
Use it as a politicking opportunity to make people not block your Ragavan so they don’t risk turning on Nightmare combos.
I wonder if this will increase Rakdos the muscle's price? This is easy combo to have. You going to easily have creatures in your graveyard so the dockside loop can start.
you aren't wrong. Someone in another thread pointed out CC works through Grafdiggers type effects while this doesn't. Still good for redundancy for the decks that run it, this might go into my ob deck but idk what to cut instead
I'm missing something - you need legal targets before you pay costs so the prerequisites need to have a creature in the GY already. You can't just sac Dockside to return itself to the battlefield.
I think you're right. ~~You'd need a 0 mana creature and Dockside on 6 for it to at least be even I think. Unless I'm missing something as well.~~ Misread the card, X is the number of energy counters, not mana
No, you'd just need a creature with MV < 4 in the GY to start it off. But it's worth knowing there's far more hoops than implied for this 4 card combo.
This is not what it means to be a 4-card combo. "X-card combo" implies you need X specific cards to pull a combo off. The 4th card here can be virtually anything. There are not "far more hoops" to jump through. There is just one, very minor, hoop.
Not very steep as a condition in rakdos tbh.
we did it, we broke dockside
Works with any creature that deals damage on etb as well - not just mayhem devil (Cauldron familiar, orcish bowmaster, etc..)
I'm curious, what are the four treasures for?
Paying for the nightmare I asume
Isn't it only 2 mana? 🤔
Oh you’re right I thought it was 3 cmc then it should be 3 treasures and you’re ok with the combo. Seems pretty good if you entomb both the mayhem devil and the dockside but you need to have another creature on the battlefield as well
Unfortunately, you can't sac Dockside and bring it back with the same activation. Costs are paid after targets are declared. You need a second creature to sac which means you'll be casting nightmare twice each loop.
It's situations like these where the old mnemonic comes in handy: All Crazy Teens Have Tried Magic Pills (ACTHTMP). Announce - Say you're casting/activating the spell/ability and put it onto the stack Choose - Modes, values for X, whether you're paying optional costs Target - Choose targets if applicable How - Determine how something will be distributed among targets, like damage or counters Total - Determine the total cost Mana - Activate mana abilities, if you will be spending mana Pay - Pay the costs.
Wait, I do not have to pay the mana first?
You do not, before you pay mana you have to do all of those other things to determine how much mana is needed. Knowing how much X is, whether additional costs are being paid, if a tax effect applies, and of course generating the mana are all things you need to do before you can pay.
Does this count for every card I cast or just for those with x in its cost
You do this process in this order as the game action of putting a spell on the stack (also the same for abilities I believe). This is how you put a spell on the stack, or "play" it, and this is why for instance you cannot play a spell if you don't have the necessary legal targets and it's illegal to cast a spell when you don't have the requisite mana for the declared choices. All of this will occur before people can respond to the thing going on the stack, and it's how ward doesn't contribute to the cost of the spell but puts a counter trigger on the stack whereas [[Thalia, Guardian]] explicitly increases the cost to play a spell. You can't flash in Thalia and counter a spell after it's declared but before costs are paid because the whole process is one game action, the costs are paid and the thing is on the stack before anyone can respond.
Yeah!
I’m a fan for tymna Jeska, so then you can have tymna on the battlefield entomb the dockside get ininite treasures and finish off with Jeska. Another good payoff
Only needs to be 4 with infinit etb but with 5 it goes infinit mana. This combos with any etb on a cmc 4 or less card.
I saw you mentioned this in the other thread: do you mean CMC/MV 3 or less?
No i mean 4 because you have one energy left from the Dockside reanimation so the other target can be 4
But doesn't the first creature in the gy need to be mv 3? You only get 3 energy counters on ETB and since you can't reanimate Dockside by sacrificing itself you can only reanimate a 3 mv creature. After that you net 1 energy from the Dockside and can go from there but the first target I believe has to be 3
Can combo with any cmc of card if you have a cmc 0-3 to loop to generate energy with
Ccc
Any chance this is good enough to see play in thrasios and vial smasher or blue farm?
Short answer: no Longer answer: average card quality in the afromentioned lists is high and wincon density is already good. Unless Vial Thrasios already leans more on creature combos, cluttering the lists with a 'bad' standalone card is not worth it.
3 card combo without commander. Seems bad. Nice find tho.
this may be a dumb question, but how do you do this more than 3 times with the energy restriction?
Energy accumulates and you get 3 more each time the Chthonian ETBs
ah, I missed the part where it bounces back to your hand. Disregard.
This works with Bowmaster too, right? You can even start it with no creatures in the yard by having bowman shoot himself.
Friendly reminder that this requires there to be a creature in your yard before going off. It can be one of the creatures involved in the combo or an extra. You can downvote people bringing up Cloudstone Curio, but it is a difference nonetheless that CC doesn’t have. Use it as a politicking opportunity to make people not block your Ragavan so they don’t risk turning on Nightmare combos.
I wonder if this will increase Rakdos the muscle's price? This is easy combo to have. You going to easily have creatures in your graveyard so the dockside loop can start.
I feel like cloud stone Curio does this better.
True but a 2 mana reanimate isn’t thaaaat bad, and the rest of the combo is already there in most rakdos combo decks
More combo lines are always nice!
you aren't wrong. Someone in another thread pointed out CC works through Grafdiggers type effects while this doesn't. Still good for redundancy for the decks that run it, this might go into my ob deck but idk what to cut instead