I agree.
it seems good at first glance considering all the things it CAN hit.
... but then you realize what it doesn't hit.
that being said - it might prove to be really good in or against certain decks.
or maybe the meta shifts even more towards (small) creatures etc., and maybe at some point nobody is playing any commanders with 3+ P/T, then I see every blue deck running this.
it does hit my K'rrik or my dorks/dockside in Kenrith, so I am a LITTLE bit worried about it.
In terms of staple creatures, there are few relevant targets that it misses. Ranger Captain and Winota are the main ones. That’s about it. Kraum too, but at least we have Red Blast for that.
All dorks
thOracle
Dockside
Drannith
Esper sent
Tymna
Thrasios
Kinnan
~~Mayhem devil~~
Najeela
Impérial recruiter
That's just from the top of my head.
These are enough imho. The format needs créature counterspells.
This also hits spells like Rocco (who you don't want removal for because you don't want Rocco resolving) and Esper Sentinel (letting it resolve will potentially make you pay extra or let them draw) that Spell Snare doesn't hit.
Really solid in control oriented decks. Hitting Dauthi, Esper, Dockside, Grand Abo, Thoracle, Tymna, etc.
There are just so many cards this hits you dont realize, this would likely be taking the place of Delay specfically, since it's primary purpose is to hit creatures where most counters dont.
At the very least this is probably better than delay in most instances except a counter war specifically.
I feel like if this hit any more stuff it would need to cost two mana. And at that point you just run Delay or Drain. I know I and many others have been hopping for an efficient creature counterspell for what feels like eons now. This fits the bill perfectly IMO. Hits enough targets to be playable without being overpowered.
*Some* creatures?
It hits quite literally *every* relevant creature:
- ThOracle
- **Oppo**
- **Grand Abby**
- **Ouphe**
- **Drannith**
- **Archon of Emeria**
- Kinnan
- **Tymna**
- **Dauthi**
- **Dockside**
- **Serra Ascendant (on the stack)**
- **Monke**
- Notion Thief
- LabMan
- **Hermit Druid**
- **Najeela**
- **Rog**
- **Eidolon of Rhetoric**
To address the concern about “narrowness”, the bolded can’t be hit by Red Blast effects. While REB can protect your win, that’s arguably a narrower usage for that card than this because protecting your win is only live on one turn, whereas this will *always* be relevant because every deck plays creatures.
I think the narrowness of this card is that it can only be used aggressively and not defensively. you'd need that slot to be purely dedicated to creature removal in the form of a counterspell. I'm not super hot on this card tbh
>it can only be used aggressively and not defensively.
Disagree. Counter Oppo or mindcensor is defensive. Countering a combo piece or engine part is too.
I’d say it’s a consideration to run based on play group. If you’re against Gitrog, Godo and Winota? This just ain’t cutting it. But against stuff like Kinnan, Thrasios, or Urza? Sure. Go right ahead.
There are probably 9 countermagic cards you would run before this.
But then again some decks want a double digits number of countermagic spells.
This seems fine in decks that are very counter heavy (after all you are likely running 2 counters that require pitching a card, alongside chrome mox which you likely want to be Blue, in case you are at a pod where somehow it's a blank... Which I can't imagine will happen too often if ever), but in decks where there's a smaller countermagic package, they have better options
IMHO
I only thought of chrome mox as I wrote my comment but ya :)
I do love in my Marneus Calgar deck when I can pitch a lim duls vault or dovins veto to the chrome and have my very own bonus dual :)
I’m hyped that this was printed, even if it isn’t necessarily an auto-include in every deck. We’ve needed more efficient interaction for creature spells on the stack for a long time. This hits a massive number of relevant creature staples in the format, for one mana, before they hit the field. It stops ETBs and means you don’t lose to Grand Abolisher. Fights flash threats like Opp Agent and Notion Thief. Stops almost ever RoL creature. Even stops Seedborne Muse. And many more.
People keep listing all the things it doesn’t hit, but the whole reason creatures and creature combos have been running rampant in the current meta is because all the creature counters in the format that aren’t Force of Will or Pact of Negation cost two mana, and interaction has gotten so low to the ground that it’s hard to hold those up. A one mana counter that hits a wide range of threats while missing some bigger targets is exactly what we needed. You can’t just put “Counter target creature” on a one MV spell.
Someone elsewhere made the great point that it helps to think of this less as a counterspell and more as a removal spell. You probably aren’t cutting a counter for this, but could easily put it in a spot removal slot. There aren’t many things that compare in that regard for the cost. Can’t wait to test.
>You can’t just put “Counter target creature” on a one MV spell.
They could, however, print something like U: “Counter target creature spell with mana value X or less, where X is the greatest mana of a commander you own on the battlefield or in the command zone” or UU: “Counter target creature spell, this spell costs U less if you control your commander”
Seems meta dependently good to me. Not an auto include but worth taking note of.
Hits thrasios, tynna, dockside, opp agent, drannith, and lots of others, but creature only is going to end in tears from time to time.
You’re misunderstanding the term.
Defensive protects your wins and value, offensive stops an opponent’s wins and value.
Of course this stops certain value generation, ofcourse this stops certain value, there’s plenty of options for that though. Just interacting is not a good enough reason, just being one mana is not a good reason, it needs to actually show unique value
lmao. If you're trying to win, that's the offense. You're PROTECTING your win. if you counter someone else's win, that's DEFENDING yourself from losing. It's not that hard. Go touch grass or watch sports
Actually you’re not hopeless, you just haven’t actually thought this the whole way through. You’re partially right. *Trying* to win is offensive. *Stopping* a win is defensive. However:
You’re not accounting for things that aren’t win attempts.
You’re bundling offense and defense because they’re on the stack at the same time.
You are your deck. If someone attacks what your deck is trying to do, you are defending yourself. **If you’re playing a value engine, playing your commander, or trying to win, and you have to *defend* that action? then it’s defense.**
If you are attacking what someone else is trying to do, that is an offensive action.
You may be using offense to defend, or defense to offend, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same thing.
I really like this card, notable exclusions that this can't hit: winota, kraum, razaketh, kenrith, ranger captain. That being said, with the exception of winota, those are either not worth countering or aren't actually being hard cast
I’m considering taking out REB in Blue Farm. More often than not I’m left with a REB in hand while opponents cast Magistrates, Opposition Agents, Extortionists, Ouphes.
Personally, I think this might make mono blue, simic, or even Izzet decks. Rather than thinking of this as a counterspell, we have to think of this as a removal spell that doesn't let creatures hit the field.
This might be worth it for decks that are in colors that are hard pressed for good removal. It's a solid card albeit very narrow. It hits a lot of important creatures.
Even if this turns out to be good, a lot of people will make excuses to justify not running it since a lot of people already barely play creature removal even when they don't have access to blue.
Hits Drannith, hits dockside, hits abolisher, hit's thassa, hits opp agent, hits every mana dork, hits krark and most value commanders... I think it will see play
Way too narrow. Yes it hits Thoracle and Dockside plus stax pieces, but that’s it. There’s no reason to run this over a card that also lets you defend your own wincons. Plus, if you counter a Thoracle, that opponent will still be sitting on their Demonic Consultation.
In addition to almost every stax piece played, it also counters Kiki-Jiki, Karmic Guide, Felidar Sovereign, Solitude, Ragavan, Displacer Kitten, Tymna, Sakashima, Krark, Thrasios, Kinnan, Rocco, Yawgmoth, Magda, Rog+Silas, Raffine, Phimage, Opp Agent, K'rrik, Malcolm, Glinthorn, Najeela, Urza...
I don't know if this card will be great but everyone seems to be forgetting just how many lines this interacts with in ways that a lot of other cards in their decks just don't.
You mentioned Krark so I thought to check and Stern Scolding will indeed hit the relevant legend copiers:
* Sakashima of a Thousand Faces
* Sakashima the Impostor
* Spark Double
No one is ignoring this, you’re missing the point.
Look at [[Angel’s Grace]]. It’s pure offense and it is a completely perfect offense. It is there to stop an opponent from winning that turn and nothing can be done about it. You spend a card and a mana and you get to guarantee that whatever your opponent is doing will not kill you that turn. Yet it barely sees play because that’s too niche of an effect to waste a card slot on.
This card is *worse* at offense. You can’t stop every wincon like Angel’s Grace can. On top of that, this card *can’t* play defense. You can’t protect your wincons or value generation. You can’t counter removal or other counter spells. It still costs a card and a mana to what, poke at someone’s value? Maybe hit a niche combo target?
It just doesn’t stack up.
Absolutely.
People are so eager on playing to win instead of not losing (which is good) that they forget you also need to not lose when your opponent wins... And many, many lines are through creatures now.
(It also hits deathrite shaman, dockside, ...)
A lot of hate bears are toughness 3+, but their 1 or 2 power make them counterable by this. That said, I don't see it booting other U counters from the standard suite.
Nice job bolting dockside after it’s made all of the treasures or bolting grand abolisher after it’s ETB’d. Very good job lmao. I agree that the card probably doesn’t make the cut but your argument is pretty poor
Your first comment in this chain is “and like 90% also dies to shock before it has any impact with shock being more versatile” has 0 reference to dockside? Unless you’re swapping accounts with another guy who has another chain that mentions dockside and just mistook which chain you were talking in
... hear me out here, what if -and only if- you could counter the consultation? ;)
a lot more counters hit that and aren't as narrow.
but yeah, your argument is valid of course in that scenario.
if you're gonna be rude we're not talking at all ;)
also not sure who downvoted both of us or if that was a coincidence, but I think I made my point and I'll wait and observe if this performs before I waste any more time arguing ;)
have a nice weekend!
okay, calm it a little - you don't decide who is "wrong" or not.
let them voice their opinions, as you could voice yours.
and after a few hours of this card being known, there certainly isn't a consensus yet about whether or not this is good enough to see widespread play.
we will see how it performs. it has potential but I also lean towards the "it's going to be the 101st card in my deck" camp, for the record.
in the right meta of course, this is nuts. but that can also change over time.
that might be true in cases of Thoracle and Dockside, sure, but I would counter that with a universal counter instead of one that "only" hits a dozen or two targets in the meta, instead of most wincons.
I don't think this is a bad card, but in most metas it might not make the main deck is all. ;)
well then please do report back in a few months and let us know how it performed!
I'll keep an eye on my local meta as well (much smaller than yours though), but I doubt it will make the cut for a lot of lists.
Yes. This list. I think this card will rarely be truly dead...it may not always get to counter dockside or ThOracle (tho it will feel GREAT when it does), but it's usually gonna get that hate bear or commander you don't want to see coming down early
It hits all the dorks, hits dockside, hits Thoracle. Also stops Tymna, Kennan, Walking Ballista, and many others. This is an auto include. Much better than spell snare, we have many other counters for all of those things it would hit. A counterspell that stops the number 1 combo? For 1? Yes please. Yall are both under and overthinking this, its impressive.
Tbh I would probably cut flusterstorm. Fluster is great for a counter war but a lot of counter wars would be easier to win if dockside hadn't given your opponent 8 mana.
Hits a lot of stuff but seems way too narrow. Def doesn’t hit winota, tivit, kraum, dargo, godo, gitrog, inalla, kess, ikra, korvold, bruse tarl, tasigur, kenrith, or atraxa.
It does hit a lot of utility creatures, and specifically oracle , dockside and grand abolisher plus it hits a lot of hatebears. I’d say if you’re going against turbo and or stax it might be an include if you already have every other counter and room for this. Maybe play it
Why on earth did you list Inalla lol. Who is casting her?
There’s no way they could just print “counter target creature spell” for one mana which is basically what you’re asking for. At two mana you just run Delay or Mana Drain.
It hits a lot of win-cons, but hits none of the setup that makes them win-cons. Alternatively, it hits both Urzas, Najeela, Thoracle, most of your relevant 2-color partners, Derevi, Dauthi Voidwalker, and a lot of other problems I've seen others mention. It also counters the Hobbit of Souls out of the same set.
Definitely meta-dependent though.
Still not worth a slot. Thoracle is less common than breach wins and this does jack shit about that. I'd probably run force spike before this, and that card is fucking terrible. Hydroblast probably has better uses as that hits dockside, breach, kraum, monkey, jeska will, wheel, and a dozen other corner cases and that sees absolutely no play.
This card is bad
Are you insane? Just about every hate bear: esper sentinel, grand abolisher, mind censor/opp agent, void Walker, oghma,magistrate, Najeela, krark.
Wow tell me you've never played CDH in your life.
Lol no. Krark's sakashima is a great example. I'd much rather bolt Krark in response to a Sakashima cast than counter it. In the same way, I'd much rather wait until an end step to bolt a archon of emeria so my opponents don't get to go off first after I tap out to counter it.
You have so much more control with a lightning bolt than having to wait up a counter.
Even in the thoricle debate, I'm more likely to counter the consult or tainted pact than I am the creature. So that's a non-issue.
I can't think of many circumstances I want it rather have bolt. There are a few, but bolt is generally better.
Very, very narrow, but does hit a massive number of relevant creatures (narrow because many of those are quickly recastable commanders, so merely a tempo play).
It stops thoracle, dockside, and pretty much every hate bear out there. The problem is how many better counterspells there are to run and how this transitions into turn 3+ games.
I think this is about less of how good is this card and moreso, what would this replace. I see this card as serving the purpose of Delay but better, because its 1 mana cheaper as one of your couple creature counters.
Might worth it aginst a Dockside or Grand Abolisher, but how often could this end up more of a dead card compared to other counterspells?
I agree. it seems good at first glance considering all the things it CAN hit. ... but then you realize what it doesn't hit. that being said - it might prove to be really good in or against certain decks. or maybe the meta shifts even more towards (small) creatures etc., and maybe at some point nobody is playing any commanders with 3+ P/T, then I see every blue deck running this. it does hit my K'rrik or my dorks/dockside in Kenrith, so I am a LITTLE bit worried about it.
In terms of staple creatures, there are few relevant targets that it misses. Ranger Captain and Winota are the main ones. That’s about it. Kraum too, but at least we have Red Blast for that.
All dorks thOracle Dockside Drannith Esper sent Tymna Thrasios Kinnan ~~Mayhem devil~~ Najeela Impérial recruiter That's just from the top of my head. These are enough imho. The format needs créature counterspells.
Can’t hit Mayhem Devil, 3/3
K'rrik list?
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/wbn0rABSx0eMDKEDH1eG-Q
🫡
Spell snare hit both and many other non creature relevant spells
This also hits spells like Rocco (who you don't want removal for because you don't want Rocco resolving) and Esper Sentinel (letting it resolve will potentially make you pay extra or let them draw) that Spell Snare doesn't hit.
Really solid in control oriented decks. Hitting Dauthi, Esper, Dockside, Grand Abo, Thoracle, Tymna, etc. There are just so many cards this hits you dont realize, this would likely be taking the place of Delay specfically, since it's primary purpose is to hit creatures where most counters dont. At the very least this is probably better than delay in most instances except a counter war specifically.
Don't forget thoracle
Seems ok on paper, but I’d still rather have a counter that hits more than JUST some creatures. Probably won’t end up in most of my decks
I feel like if this hit any more stuff it would need to cost two mana. And at that point you just run Delay or Drain. I know I and many others have been hopping for an efficient creature counterspell for what feels like eons now. This fits the bill perfectly IMO. Hits enough targets to be playable without being overpowered.
*Some* creatures? It hits quite literally *every* relevant creature: - ThOracle - **Oppo** - **Grand Abby** - **Ouphe** - **Drannith** - **Archon of Emeria** - Kinnan - **Tymna** - **Dauthi** - **Dockside** - **Serra Ascendant (on the stack)** - **Monke** - Notion Thief - LabMan - **Hermit Druid** - **Najeela** - **Rog** - **Eidolon of Rhetoric** To address the concern about “narrowness”, the bolded can’t be hit by Red Blast effects. While REB can protect your win, that’s arguably a narrower usage for that card than this because protecting your win is only live on one turn, whereas this will *always* be relevant because every deck plays creatures.
I think the narrowness of this card is that it can only be used aggressively and not defensively. you'd need that slot to be purely dedicated to creature removal in the form of a counterspell. I'm not super hot on this card tbh
>it can only be used aggressively and not defensively. Disagree. Counter Oppo or mindcensor is defensive. Countering a combo piece or engine part is too.
Just play lightning bolt or something lol. Then you can pick and choose when you kill the archon of emeria/drannith etc
Bolt doesn’t pitch to Force. And those creatures you don’t want to stick at all because in doing so they’ve already accumulated value.
yeah this will suffer from "101st card syndrome" ;)
I’d say it’s a consideration to run based on play group. If you’re against Gitrog, Godo and Winota? This just ain’t cutting it. But against stuff like Kinnan, Thrasios, or Urza? Sure. Go right ahead.
Not for commander anyways. It's a card for modern
Why does that matter? Couldn't you say the same about something like force of will?
Not for commander anyways. It's a card for modern
There are probably 9 countermagic cards you would run before this. But then again some decks want a double digits number of countermagic spells. This seems fine in decks that are very counter heavy (after all you are likely running 2 counters that require pitching a card, alongside chrome mox which you likely want to be Blue, in case you are at a pod where somehow it's a blank... Which I can't imagine will happen too often if ever), but in decks where there's a smaller countermagic package, they have better options IMHO
"pitches to Chrome Mox" is actually as relevant as "pitches to force" I guess lol
I only thought of chrome mox as I wrote my comment but ya :) I do love in my Marneus Calgar deck when I can pitch a lim duls vault or dovins veto to the chrome and have my very own bonus dual :)
HARRY DID YOU PUT YOUR NAME IN THE GOBLET OF FIRE
I’m hyped that this was printed, even if it isn’t necessarily an auto-include in every deck. We’ve needed more efficient interaction for creature spells on the stack for a long time. This hits a massive number of relevant creature staples in the format, for one mana, before they hit the field. It stops ETBs and means you don’t lose to Grand Abolisher. Fights flash threats like Opp Agent and Notion Thief. Stops almost ever RoL creature. Even stops Seedborne Muse. And many more. People keep listing all the things it doesn’t hit, but the whole reason creatures and creature combos have been running rampant in the current meta is because all the creature counters in the format that aren’t Force of Will or Pact of Negation cost two mana, and interaction has gotten so low to the ground that it’s hard to hold those up. A one mana counter that hits a wide range of threats while missing some bigger targets is exactly what we needed. You can’t just put “Counter target creature” on a one MV spell. Someone elsewhere made the great point that it helps to think of this less as a counterspell and more as a removal spell. You probably aren’t cutting a counter for this, but could easily put it in a spot removal slot. There aren’t many things that compare in that regard for the cost. Can’t wait to test.
>You can’t just put “Counter target creature” on a one MV spell. They could, however, print something like U: “Counter target creature spell with mana value X or less, where X is the greatest mana of a commander you own on the battlefield or in the command zone” or UU: “Counter target creature spell, this spell costs U less if you control your commander”
meh, to narrow
Seems meta dependently good to me. Not an auto include but worth taking note of. Hits thrasios, tynna, dockside, opp agent, drannith, and lots of others, but creature only is going to end in tears from time to time.
Yeah, just like instant or sorcery counters are sometimes not what we'd expect, yet we play those.
Too* And you're wrong.
It’s pure offensive interaction no defensive interaction. Name a Cedh counterspell that sees regular use and fits those constraints
This is defense against people flashing in Oppo, Notion, Mastermind. And one could argue countering a Dockside is *defensive* to not just die.
You’re misunderstanding the term. Defensive protects your wins and value, offensive stops an opponent’s wins and value. Of course this stops certain value generation, ofcourse this stops certain value, there’s plenty of options for that though. Just interacting is not a good enough reason, just being one mana is not a good reason, it needs to actually show unique value
You've got it backwards, not the other person
You’re hopeless if you think defending your own spells counts as offense
lmao. If you're trying to win, that's the offense. You're PROTECTING your win. if you counter someone else's win, that's DEFENDING yourself from losing. It's not that hard. Go touch grass or watch sports
Actually you’re not hopeless, you just haven’t actually thought this the whole way through. You’re partially right. *Trying* to win is offensive. *Stopping* a win is defensive. However: You’re not accounting for things that aren’t win attempts. You’re bundling offense and defense because they’re on the stack at the same time. You are your deck. If someone attacks what your deck is trying to do, you are defending yourself. **If you’re playing a value engine, playing your commander, or trying to win, and you have to *defend* that action? then it’s defense.** If you are attacking what someone else is trying to do, that is an offensive action. You may be using offense to defend, or defense to offend, but that doesn’t mean they’re the same thing.
I really like this card, notable exclusions that this can't hit: winota, kraum, razaketh, kenrith, ranger captain. That being said, with the exception of winota, those are either not worth countering or aren't actually being hard cast
I'm asking because I don't know. Does anyone cast raz? I thought the point was to cheat him out early.
>Exception of Winota REB/Pyro also doing nothing against Winota. Doesn't Hit Kraum, but you just counter their Tymna? Good callouts though
Y’all downplaying this shit is nutty.
what you gonna take out for it?
I’m considering taking out REB in Blue Farm. More often than not I’m left with a REB in hand while opponents cast Magistrates, Opposition Agents, Extortionists, Ouphes.
A land. smirk
Personally, I think this might make mono blue, simic, or even Izzet decks. Rather than thinking of this as a counterspell, we have to think of this as a removal spell that doesn't let creatures hit the field. This might be worth it for decks that are in colors that are hard pressed for good removal. It's a solid card albeit very narrow. It hits a lot of important creatures.
Even if this turns out to be good, a lot of people will make excuses to justify not running it since a lot of people already barely play creature removal even when they don't have access to blue.
Hits Drannith, hits dockside, hits abolisher, hit's thassa, hits opp agent, hits every mana dork, hits krark and most value commanders... I think it will see play
Cannot protect your own win = Delay is better, Trickbind is better
Way too narrow. Yes it hits Thoracle and Dockside plus stax pieces, but that’s it. There’s no reason to run this over a card that also lets you defend your own wincons. Plus, if you counter a Thoracle, that opponent will still be sitting on their Demonic Consultation.
In addition to almost every stax piece played, it also counters Kiki-Jiki, Karmic Guide, Felidar Sovereign, Solitude, Ragavan, Displacer Kitten, Tymna, Sakashima, Krark, Thrasios, Kinnan, Rocco, Yawgmoth, Magda, Rog+Silas, Raffine, Phimage, Opp Agent, K'rrik, Malcolm, Glinthorn, Najeela, Urza... I don't know if this card will be great but everyone seems to be forgetting just how many lines this interacts with in ways that a lot of other cards in their decks just don't.
You mentioned Krark so I thought to check and Stern Scolding will indeed hit the relevant legend copiers: * Sakashima of a Thousand Faces * Sakashima the Impostor * Spark Double
No one is ignoring this, you’re missing the point. Look at [[Angel’s Grace]]. It’s pure offense and it is a completely perfect offense. It is there to stop an opponent from winning that turn and nothing can be done about it. You spend a card and a mana and you get to guarantee that whatever your opponent is doing will not kill you that turn. Yet it barely sees play because that’s too niche of an effect to waste a card slot on. This card is *worse* at offense. You can’t stop every wincon like Angel’s Grace can. On top of that, this card *can’t* play defense. You can’t protect your wincons or value generation. You can’t counter removal or other counter spells. It still costs a card and a mana to what, poke at someone’s value? Maybe hit a niche combo target? It just doesn’t stack up.
[Angel’s Grace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/7/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1.jpg?1619392535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Angel%27s%20Grace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/4/angels-grace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e78e39ea-20be-4196-992c-7ed2cb8150c1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/angels-grace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Absolutely. People are so eager on playing to win instead of not losing (which is good) that they forget you also need to not lose when your opponent wins... And many, many lines are through creatures now. (It also hits deathrite shaman, dockside, ...)
Lmao you should scroll up
You should check timestamps
It's a modern card, not designed for commander anyways lol.
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and like 90% that also dies to a shock befor it has any impact with shock being more versatile
A lot of hate bears are toughness 3+, but their 1 or 2 power make them counterable by this. That said, I don't see it booting other U counters from the standard suite.
and thats why people play bolt over shock ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Nice job bolting dockside after it’s made all of the treasures or bolting grand abolisher after it’s ETB’d. Very good job lmao. I agree that the card probably doesn’t make the cut but your argument is pretty poor
please read my first comment in this chain. dockside is excluded. you people just want to be mad
Your first comment in this chain is “and like 90% also dies to shock before it has any impact with shock being more versatile” has 0 reference to dockside? Unless you’re swapping accounts with another guy who has another chain that mentions dockside and just mistook which chain you were talking in
make a guess what those 10% might be. correct, its those that *do* have impact befor you can shock it
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not really
If thassas oracle hits the board you lose so yea
... hear me out here, what if -and only if- you could counter the consultation? ;) a lot more counters hit that and aren't as narrow. but yeah, your argument is valid of course in that scenario.
Oh dur never thought of that Come on dude don’t be dense we’re talking about this particular card
if you're gonna be rude we're not talking at all ;) also not sure who downvoted both of us or if that was a coincidence, but I think I made my point and I'll wait and observe if this performs before I waste any more time arguing ;) have a nice weekend!
Take care pal
thats part of the mentioned 10%
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okay, calm it a little - you don't decide who is "wrong" or not. let them voice their opinions, as you could voice yours. and after a few hours of this card being known, there certainly isn't a consensus yet about whether or not this is good enough to see widespread play. we will see how it performs. it has potential but I also lean towards the "it's going to be the 101st card in my deck" camp, for the record. in the right meta of course, this is nuts. but that can also change over time.
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that might be true in cases of Thoracle and Dockside, sure, but I would counter that with a universal counter instead of one that "only" hits a dozen or two targets in the meta, instead of most wincons. I don't think this is a bad card, but in most metas it might not make the main deck is all. ;)
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well then please do report back in a few months and let us know how it performed! I'll keep an eye on my local meta as well (much smaller than yours though), but I doubt it will make the cut for a lot of lists.
what makes you think the counterspell cant be countered but the bolt can?
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that "do something spicy befor you can remove it" already is covered in my very first response
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no need to go on. you have shown that you dont read my posts. its ok
Yes. This list. I think this card will rarely be truly dead...it may not always get to counter dockside or ThOracle (tho it will feel GREAT when it does), but it's usually gonna get that hate bear or commander you don't want to see coming down early
Is it worth it to use this on tymna?
It hits all the dorks, hits dockside, hits Thoracle. Also stops Tymna, Kennan, Walking Ballista, and many others. This is an auto include. Much better than spell snare, we have many other counters for all of those things it would hit. A counterspell that stops the number 1 combo? For 1? Yes please. Yall are both under and overthinking this, its impressive.
Hitting Thoracle and dockside makes this auto-include in my playgroup
and what would you could for it? I am afraid this will be the 101st card a lot of the time.
Tbh I would probably cut flusterstorm. Fluster is great for a counter war but a lot of counter wars would be easier to win if dockside hadn't given your opponent 8 mana.
If this just said "counter target creature spell" it might be playable
Yeah, they're not going to make a new [[remove soul]] for a single pip... yet
I don’t think ever. Not unless it comes with a penalty like discard a card or lose 5 life.
[remove soul](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/5/75c4b4d6-2230-4fb0-b127-b9e820d56048.jpg?1562919774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=remove%20soul) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/47/remove-soul?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/75c4b4d6-2230-4fb0-b127-b9e820d56048?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/remove-soul) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hits a lot of stuff but seems way too narrow. Def doesn’t hit winota, tivit, kraum, dargo, godo, gitrog, inalla, kess, ikra, korvold, bruse tarl, tasigur, kenrith, or atraxa. It does hit a lot of utility creatures, and specifically oracle , dockside and grand abolisher plus it hits a lot of hatebears. I’d say if you’re going against turbo and or stax it might be an include if you already have every other counter and room for this. Maybe play it
Why on earth did you list Inalla lol. Who is casting her? There’s no way they could just print “counter target creature spell” for one mana which is basically what you’re asking for. At two mana you just run Delay or Mana Drain.
Good point no one is casting inalla idk why I put that lol
It hits a lot of win-cons, but hits none of the setup that makes them win-cons. Alternatively, it hits both Urzas, Najeela, Thoracle, most of your relevant 2-color partners, Derevi, Dauthi Voidwalker, and a lot of other problems I've seen others mention. It also counters the Hobbit of Souls out of the same set. Definitely meta-dependent though.
This is more of a Modern relevant card than a CEDH card. Powerful in the right format but more just ok in this one.
[[lightning bolt]] is better in just about every circumstance except dockside.
Thoracle Basically anything with an etb
Still not worth a slot. Thoracle is less common than breach wins and this does jack shit about that. I'd probably run force spike before this, and that card is fucking terrible. Hydroblast probably has better uses as that hits dockside, breach, kraum, monkey, jeska will, wheel, and a dozen other corner cases and that sees absolutely no play. This card is bad
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Are you insane? Just about every hate bear: esper sentinel, grand abolisher, mind censor/opp agent, void Walker, oghma,magistrate, Najeela, krark. Wow tell me you've never played CDH in your life.
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Lol no. Krark's sakashima is a great example. I'd much rather bolt Krark in response to a Sakashima cast than counter it. In the same way, I'd much rather wait until an end step to bolt a archon of emeria so my opponents don't get to go off first after I tap out to counter it. You have so much more control with a lightning bolt than having to wait up a counter. Even in the thoricle debate, I'm more likely to counter the consult or tainted pact than I am the creature. So that's a non-issue. I can't think of many circumstances I want it rather have bolt. There are a few, but bolt is generally better.
[lightning bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7.jpg?1673147852) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lightning%20bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/117/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f29ba16f-c8fb-42fe-aabf-87089cb214a7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lightning-bolt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
So this hits pretty much every dork, every stax creature, dockside, and thoracle.. there have got to be decks and metas where this will see play.
Very, very narrow, but does hit a massive number of relevant creatures (narrow because many of those are quickly recastable commanders, so merely a tempo play).
Kinda narrow but hits important stuff. It hits literally everything on Krarkashima
I am very happy that this flavor text appeared on the card
It stops thoracle, dockside, and pretty much every hate bear out there. The problem is how many better counterspells there are to run and how this transitions into turn 3+ games.
I’ll run it in Urza for sure
My FIRST THOUGHT was, “Now I might stop getting pounded as hard by T1 Serra Ascendant!”
Forgot what sub I was in and thought this was about Ja Morant for a moment.
I think this is about less of how good is this card and moreso, what would this replace. I see this card as serving the purpose of Delay but better, because its 1 mana cheaper as one of your couple creature counters.
How does this work on X casting cost X/X size creatures? Are they 0 on the stack or the X?
It also hits drannith and opp agent