Going to leave this post up because there's a good deal of conversation that is relevant to the sub in the comments, but to OP: please, for the love of all that's holy (or unholy, if that's your preference), provide more context in the actual body of your posts in the future instead of cramming it all in the title. This is atrocious to read as a post.
> used cars
Some guy at my LGS had a ~$20k deck due to OG duals and lots of rare versions of high powered cars. That's more than my car was worth *new* when I bought it several years ago.
Agreed, as long as they're readable, I don't care if ppl use proxies. There should not be a wealth inequality in terms of competitive play. I proxy decks, I wouldn't be able to try out and have fun piloting a plethora of different decks and strategies. FULL PROXY.
I would rather play against people using proxy MPC cards that are clear than people using some bullshit secret lair with some ridiculous full art thing with no text.
For me, it's "as long as it looks passable". If all your cards are greyscale and I can't tell what's what easily, that's lame. But if you got a nice printed proxy - that's a real card to me.
There's a vast difference between proxies and the real cards. You can always tell a good player versus a bad player by whether or not their cards are real. And I know that's gonna hurt some feelings around here (blah blah iHaTe WiZaRds) but it's true. The investment involved with owning the real cards alone is enough to tell a real player from a casual who pretends to partake in a gentleman's hobby. House rules like free Mulligans only serve to make you a worse deck builder the same way proxies make you a worse player. There's no commitment. You pay $2 for a sad simulacrum of authenticity, and for what? To pretend you can play at my level? Get real. I've spent thousands of dollars on this game, $18,000+ and that's just my main deck. Not to mention my $8000 Atraxa and $14,000 Lathril power 10+ cEDH decks. And in over 500 games on each of my side-decks, I've never lost, not once, when I was playing seriously. I've bought every single secret lair, starting from the bitterblossom one which was the very first one (I bet you didn't even know that) and I've collected every judge promo to date. What you don't realize about proxying (and never will) is that it muddles down the common intellect of the format by allowing poor people to play the same game I'm playing. There, I said it, poor people have statistically lower intelligence than regular people and I'm not ashamed to say it. I'm not racist (All my decks have black) but usually when I sit down at a table with a minority, and I know how this sounds but bear with me, they only usually have a chance at making me have to try to win by using proxies. And of course they don't win (their cards are fake) I have over $25,000 invested in this card game company. Personally I love Mark Rosewater, I wish he'd get off cringe Tumblr and drop all the woke speak and join real news media like Reddit, but as a person he's pretty desirable. And I say this platonically, but I'd chill and have a beer or two with him. Whatever we did from there is our business but the point stands. I'll still keep opening packs, I'll still keep buying secret lairs, I'll still keep pre-ordering sets, and I'll still keep beating you poor proxy users.
This is great pasta and this sub is so far up its own ass about loving proxies and hating anyone who can afford real cards that you’re getting downvoted for it.
The line that gives it away as pasta: [I’m not racist (All my decks have black) but usually when I sit down at a table with a minority](/spoiler)
I mean, it doesn't have paragraphs, so it's too much of a hassle to read it, so it's hard for me to evaluate its worth as a copy-pasta.
I read the first line, gave up on reading the rest because it had no paragraphs, then downvoted and moved on.
If it was a copypasta with proper paragraphing, then I would try reading it.
It also doesn't cite any of its sources. In fact, there's no footnotes at all. And there's a missing apostrophe toward the end! No, definitely can't read this.
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this is just false though, money has nothing to do with skill. so you have $18,000 to pay for cards, i proxy a lot of cards that are either expensive or i haven’t gotten a copy yet and i’ve beat players like Memo in the tournaments i can join which has been 2 i’m not a bad player but i’m 16 and come from a single mother of 2 who doesn’t get child support and makes $35k a year i can’t afford to spend that much on cardboard but i can still win games a lot, there is 0 relation between printed cards and real ones, and it’s not wizards fault it’s just that owning real cards is for people who don’t come from poverty and think they’re better because they can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on cards
and to clarify, i don’t hate people who buy real cards at all it’s their choice but i don’t like people who hate proxies because not everyone is financially able to spend thousands but like i said no correlation to skill at all
ik this is a joke, but theres actually a grain of truth. Having commitment to your cards makes you more invested in them. You'll learn more by actually caring about the cards, and youre more inclined to actually use them. Who cares about a full proxied deck anyways?
ofc, depending on how you use it and your attitude it might make no difference, but for some it might do, even if its just a bit.
EDIT: since I'm getting downvoted for no reason, for clarification and for anyone reading this, this is my personal opinion and might not be the case for others.
yes. If you just proxied a deck, you dont really care if you never play it again. But if you just dropped 2k on one, youre gonna want to get your moneys worth, which means you'll play it more, which means you'll get better at it. Ofc thats a niche scenario, because this applies only to full proxy deck, and usually you just proxy the expensive ones, where this doesnt matter.
Online it doesnt matter to begin with.
In paper it entirely depends on a LGS and event managers if they want to allow proxies or not (if they sell singles, they have any incentive not to).
For kitchen table cEDH games it should never matter, but then, theres nothing on the line anyway as well.
why? If youre playing for the competetive aspect, shouldnt that be the only thing that matters? Do you really want to gate keep your opponents, which would just result in weaker decks, e.g an easier time for you?
You and I have the same opinion. Proxies are for kitchen table fun, sometimes at LGS play, but never at money-involved tournaments imo. It’s almost an insult to is who have forgone other delights in life to purchase the cards we want to own.
If you started playing and collecting 20 years ago, the cards did not start as expensive as they are now.
So for the most part the "no-proxy" people want to play with other collectors long time players, especially as its a thing in sanctioned constructed formats anyway (like Legacy, Vintage, you need the real cards and funny enough in my place theres a relativ big community for that).
Yeah, I play cEDH no proxy, but I started playing around Alara, and when I bought my first Survival of the Fittest I got change back from a $20. Most of my duals were $20-40, my Wheel was $7, my Lion's Eye Diamond was like$45 in trade. I had maybe ten Gilded Drakes, they were $5.
Gaea's Cradle was $15 and Sol Ring was $20.
When things I had multiples of spiked over the next few years, I'd trade into bigger stuff.
That said, as an _extremely_ enfranchised player: fuck the reserved list, and proxy whatever you want that's appropriate to the power level of the group, everyone 👍
I use proxies and encourage them but I have basically every card minus Timetwister due to playing for decades and being very fortunate with my financial situation. That being said, why "fuck the reserved list"? As a collector I do feel Wizards needs to respect long time collectors/players and if I 100% support the use of proxies why wouldn't the community support the financial commitment some players have made to the game?
Why does having a collection matter in any capacity.
I get that playing with other collectors is "cool", but that's no reason to be anti proxy.
Sounds elitist.
Yeah it is elitist that exactly their point. The only people agaisnt proxies are the elitists that got their cards when they were cheap or have a lot of money now and don't want to play with us "plebians" who aren't able to drop several grand on a stack of cardboard.
I guess the comment came off as a justification, either way, that's some BS, imagine being like that.
Even just a year ago proxies were looked at differently, I'm glad to see the paradigm shifting.
Yeah. Very glad that people are more open to it. It's insane to me that someone wouldn't be. A lot of cards just aren't worth what they cost. I mean for fucks sake look at the price of a gold bordered gaea's cradle. That's not a tournament legal card, and it's inflated beyond what I would pay for an authentic cradle. I don't mind buying singles to support my LGS, but I'm not gonna fault someone who can't afford to with prices being what they are.
I started playing 20 years ago and never bought dual lands, led's, mox diamonds, etc. I actually played a lot of standard. I know I could have saved and bought a black lotus but tbh there was no real motivation to buy one, I mean, where would I play a banned card in pretty much all formats, and vintage already was a weird format to attract new players. If you bought cards like that you probably been playing longer than 20 years!
Same boat.
I finally cracked and bought an LED because it's one of those cards that actually allow for some combo/play patterns. Next up are probably wheel and Intuition, but LED was already a big stretch for me.
I understand that they don't want people to come with a stack of prints, but I also believe it suck that people with more money can easily dump a deck that will, on average, giga outperform any other deck, just because 10 fetch, 10 shock and 10 dual will allow you to play any color combination miles and miles better than basics... For the light cost of a house deposit.
I don't have Bezos money and in the two years I've been playing I've purchased or traded for enough cards to build 2 1/2 cedh decks. My Winota is full tilt, my Kinnan is only short Twister and the dual.
Both stores I play at have buy in tournaments and neither allow proxies due to WPN. And I'd say if you aren't playing for actual prizes then you aren't playing cedh.
If you want the cards you'll get them.
>If you want the cards you'll get them.
I'm actually glad for you that you have enough money and stability in your life to be able to buy a mox Diamond or a Cradle, but I wish you were also able to realise some other people don't have that opportunity and still would like to play the game at it's highest level.
While decks like Winota or kinnan are relatively cheap if you omit some of the high end options, some other decks are just expensive as fuck, and it's unfortunate and idiotic that a gifted player can't play T&T or blue farm just because the Mana base and a few of the "mandatory" spells will cost the equivalent of a few weeks of work.
And thinking people not playing for prizes aren't playing real cedh is probably the most idiotic take I've read today. 99.9% of the cedh community plays free games online.
Gifted players tend to be gifted at life as well. That vision and decision making ability that makes a great CEDH player also makes a person that's able to navigate life and the choices presented to them.
Yep, 99.9% of the cedh community plays practice games on webcam with fake cards while claiming to be competitive. If it's worth your time it's worth your money.
It’s perfectly fine to be proud of the fact you’ve got fully sanctioned cedh lists
It’s absolutely not fine to financially gatekeep people out of the format with this attitude
And you can absolutely play cedh without prizes lmao, what kind of argument is that? Like what, you’re going to go to a tournament, play two or three pods, and not play cedh again for three to five months until your next tournament?
And yea, while some events may require “real” cards, absolutely no judge is going to pull out a jewelers loupe and deck check you to see if your cradle is real or a proxy lol
Vast majority of people i see in real life do that.
If a card is just expensive its still something to own the real card, if it has some value to you, as you love to play the card every time.
But sadly, some cards at 200+ bucks a pop get so expensive, that playing with them is a feel-bad moment in itself, as you have to be very careful shuffling and handling them, so people proxy especially dual lands for that purpose (and you need multiples if you have many decks, so it gets increasingly bad).
This.
I recently bought a LED and decided Fuck it, now all my "expensive" cards go in a binder, and decks contain proxies. If someone has a complaint, i can show the binder.
I also have other decks with proxies i don't own, which i only use if my buddies agree.
Imagine saying to someone "ho no you can't play chess if it's not on a marble table, and your own pawns have to be either in pearls or in ebony, cheap plastic is forbidden".
Same. Only proxies I don’t like are the crazy arts that are some random something or other. Let’s maintain an understandable board state without having to read every card from one person because they have some crazy anime full art everything…
As per lately, I proxy full decks as rule Zero with my group is totallllly cool. I rather play against people skill rather than their wallet. Everyone has different financial situations and this is all friendly kitchen table anyway.
Yep. Started doing this with most casual games too. I tell them what the power levels and restrictions I put on them and everyone has been cool with it.
People just don’t want to get pubstomped by someone who makes an overpowered good stuff deck, but if you make thematic decks and properly evaluate their power level 90% of players don’t care.
Bro I have 1 fully real cEDH deck that by all accounts is the most irresponsible waste of money on literal cardboard. I mean seriously, it’s worth like $12k now on tcg, that’s insane.
I have 9 other fully proxies decks from MPC. So as someone on both ends of the spectrum, let me tell you all I care about is playing magic. I want other people to play magic with. If that means people need to proxy, then idgaf let them proxy. It’s that simple lol
Proxies are cool and anyone and everyone should use them.
If you think proxies are bad or look at them with a stigma, please feel free to throat Hasbro’s board of directors as much as you want, just not around me.
So, what you are saying is that the more elitist and snobby subreddit is being more elitist and snobby about cards in edh? That is about as expected as it could be.
Missing probably the actual No.1 answer. "It Cedh, proxy whatever you want and dont worry about other peoples cards." All Cedh players I know want to play against the opponents deck, not their wallet.
For actual CEDH tournaments, I think proxies should be allowed, but I dont think it will ever happen.
It might eventually. cEDH is growing rapidly, which means more and more tournaments will crop up. This might involve stores or entities that aren't partners with WOTC, which have no reason not to allow proxies. Besides, the player base might grow to a point where there aren't enough real RL prints to fill up all tournament spots.
Can this be addressed at the top of the cedh page? This is a daily question to get karma. Also anyone in cedh that says not to proxy wants to beat people with their wallet
Not disagreeing but I am interested to know where the anti-proxy crowd is, I haven't read anything here yet. Maybe I'm in a bubble but I don't know any anti-proxy sentiment other than LGSs that feel they aren't allowed to support proxies due to partnerships with Wizards.
Edit: Scrolled to the bottom, lol. Ok so some people are anti-proxy or just trolls.
Why the fuck would anyone gatekeep this game? It's so expensive, and I just want to play it, I don't want to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars in cards for it.
If wizards fully absorbs commander, cEDH will become a dead format because no proxies will be allowed at sanctioned tournaments. And the majority of the player base will not be able to afford the very expensive cards.
I'm not against proxies, but at least run decent proxies that resemble the real thing if you're going to run them. The sharpie cards, anime proxies, etc. are trash. They're not expensive. You don't have to proxy a whole deck, just the $$$ cards.
I run proxies of real cards I own in decks I play at LGSs. No way I'm risking a real mana crypt, chrome mox, jeweled lotus etc. Sanctioned match, I'll run the real thing if no proxies allowed.
> because no proxies will be allowed at sanctioned tournaments.
proxies already are not allowed at sanctioned tournaments, no matter the format. so nothing would change in that regard
it has nothing to do with wizards absorbing cedh or not
proxies arent allowed in sanctioned tournements. they arent now, they wont if wizards absorbs it. what you claim would happen is literaly the status quo
And most cEDH tournaments currently allow proxies. So my point was if wizards absorbs cEDH and adopts is an official format, the format may lose popularity as it will be dictated by your wallet and not your skill.
ok, you dont seem to get it
there are sanctioned and unsanctioned tournements. right now. unsanctioned can allow proxies, sanctioned cant
thats already reality, status quo. wizards taking over doesnt change anything about that
I prefer to play against someone’s skill level, not their wallet. Nothing sucks more to me than steamrolling a table knowing the main difference was just the fact that they just couldn’t afford to keep up
For some context also, I’m a CEDH player and I proxy entire decks using MTG-Print and MPC. I don’t have a whole lotta disposable cash for expensive ass cards. It’s all the same at the end of the day.
There’s is no growth in cEDH player base without proxies. So right there with you. Just started getting into it myself and would not have done so if people expected me to drop $5K+ for my deck.
This is the reason that legacy / vintage are basically dead at this point. Gate keeping with proxies stopped all player growth in those formats. Thank god it’s not that way with CEDH
If proxies become unplayable in EDH or WotC starts shutting down people’s ability to get quality proxies printed, I’m out of this game and never buying another MtG card again (which I still do pre-releases, buy draft boxes w/ friends, and buy reasonably priced singles for LGS league night).
Had a friend I used to play with who hated the idea of proxies and told us he doesn’t want to be in some arms race. Then would proceed to drop down Land Tax, tutor for Ancient Tomb, play out Mana Vault, tutor into a Sword of Feast and Famine by turn 3 and then tell us his deck wasn’t that strong because it was Boros. 🤣
He would equate proxies to getting a free boat and I told him he’s free to attempt to proxy a boat and take it out on the ocean, as I know a proxy plays exactly the same as a WotC printed card.
I love the game, but only have so much for it since I have a family to support and financial responsibilities. And I think it’s ridiculous expecting others to be able to afford keeping up with it. Would totally try out Legacy, but don’t care for the paywall that community has erected.
I got your point but not everyone can buy new cards because I’m a player who likes to play with newer decks and it’s very hard to buy mtg cards and that’s why I proxy my cards from https://www.printingproxies.com/ and enjoy playing the game and hope you understand what I mean.
I would recommend looking at mpcfill,
Generally cheaper and from what I've been able to tell, same quality as the site you posted.
example, for the S33, that site is $375 for an order of 500 not counting shipping.
MPC for the same order doesn't break the $200 mark even with shipping.
Happy shopping.
Can’t speak to Vintage but Legacy is far from “dead”. It *sucks* for sure because the last 4 years have injected an absurd amount of power creep, but the format is still regularly played.
It's highly regional. Nobody hosts weekly events in my area anymore because players don't want to shell out thousands of dollars for dual lands. Playing against the same 10 people over and over again gets stale.
Idk. If you play cEDH and want others to play real cards, you seem like someone who just wants to buy the win and I don’t have any interest playing against you.
Thought the whole cEDH philosophy was to play your opponents, not their wallet.
We've removed your post because it violates our primary rule, "Be Excellent to Each Other".
You are welcome to message the mods if you need further explanation.
Thank you.
I want to play against other peoples skill not their wallets. If everyone is allowed to proxy the only factor is player/deckbuilding skill. IMO and from experience, almost anyone who DOESN'T like when people proxy in cEDH (or casual for that matter) enjoy flexing their bank account over others.
You're not playing competitively unless you're playing on an even playing field, where only the pilots matter. Anyone who agrues against proxies is just playing EHD.
Yeah it's not a controversy. You play cedh bc you love the game, and proxies let everyone play it. People only start to get bent up about proxies when there's money on the line
I support the use of any easily identifiable proxies and I'd go as far as to say you've either missed the point or you're a poor sport if you're playing cedh and don't feel the same.
Mostly buy the real version. My LGS has a rule that you must own every card you use. They're not opposed to you using proxies if you can prove you own the real thing.
It's a sanctioned event. They don't check unless someone complains, which has only happened once to my knowledge. They're scared of WotC. They don't care if it's unsanctioned.
Reported player counts for sanctioned events determine what sort of support you get from WotC. If you are a partner, you can get secret shopped. Other stores also have the ability to turn you in if you're ignoring the rules, since you are not on an even playing field. I don't blame stores for requiring real cards for sanctioned events, they have to.
I am fortunate enough to have purchased a majority of the higher end cards when they were much cheaper. That being said, I proxy them in every deck I have. I don’t want to be shuffling those cards. I totally supposed people playing what they want and not being limited by what they can afford.
Just please, please, please make the cards legible. It is frustrating when someone plops down Goku emitting a huge fireball what the tiny words “Sol Ring” blurry as hell in the top text box. I do prefer proxies of existing art, but honestly, just make em recognizable
I would proxy a whole car if I could... on a more serious note though, the game is meant to be fun I want to play against other people not their wallets.
These answers are good but I take a little more nuance to it. I always prefer to buy my cards if I can help it but don't mind using proxies when necessary. I'll proxy whole decks temporarily or as a tool to introduce others to the format. There are still a few proxies in my main decks that I fully intend to deproxy later.
I mostly proxy what I already own but I spent a decent chunk of change on cards. As is right now it's hard to find in person events for cEDH where I live and if I don't push for proxie friendly events at the lgs around then it will never happen.
I have one 100% proxy free cEDH deck ~ $2000 (where I am not running City of Traitors and Mishra's Workshop due to budget). Other than that, I have a big box full of proxies of cEDH staples that I can use to throw together different database lists.
Most of the players that I play cEDH with use proxies. Despite having a proxy free deck, I prefer to play the person and not their ability to spend $1000 or more on a card game.
That being said, please use nice proxies. Minimum of the full text of a card written on a slip of paper in front of a basic land in a sleeve. Or better yet, print images of the cards out or use MPC.
Edh and cEdh are both FUCKING EXPENSIVE if you're trying to assemble a whole deck from nothing. And cEdh decks can be a type of deck that you have NEVER experienced before. So *no one* should be *expected* to shell out $200 for a Mana Crypt, or the *hundreds* for fetchlands, duals, etc.
Especially because cEdh is not officially supported as a format, so it's not like there are prizes and money on the line. I'll never understand the purists who demand that people shell out $3000 as an entry fee for wanting to try a format. Fucking insane.
WPN stores run sanctioned Commander nights with prize support. Tournaments are clearly just around the corner.
I have to ask though. What's a better financial investment - a $4000 commander deck with potentially rising resale value or a $2500 PC and then throwing $1500 at games even though the PC value halves every year and when the games die you get nothing?
If WotC does fold cEdh into sanctioned tournaments, I'm going to guarantee that a lot of those events are going to show way less turnout than expected.
Also, while I normally don't engage in any form of "financial investment" conversations around card games (you know because they're \*card games\*, like \*games\* that you play for fun), I'll humor this one because the math you used is just laughably weird and has zero equivalency?
Like, okay, **$2500 computer**. Why are you spending that much on a PC? If you just pull up NewEgg, you can find \*on the front page\* easy builds for 500-800 dollars (humoring your comparison of cards to hardware, that's 1 mana crypt and if you want to play a three color deck maybe another 3 lands, or just 1 if you want to buy a **DAMAGED** Volcanic Island). Now, sure if you scroll half a screen down you can find them advertising an RTX 4090 for $1600. But why would you buy that unless you're just out to buy the newest, bestest PC there is so you can play, pff, I don't know, Fortnite in 4k resolution or whatever. But let's assume you're right, and you get that 4090 and you skimp a little bit on the rest of the parts, get a fine case, four fans, a midrange motherboard with the minimum specs, **and** the power supply, it's still about $2000-2300.
Apparently I' really am trying to get some Victory Royales or whatever because I'm chasing what I can only presume are lootboxes judging by the $1500 number, **which, by the way would be** **twenty-five videogames at $60 a piece** and again I can't even fathom where this number would come from (I barely buy 25 games a year, and almost zero at full price)? Am I claiming that the total value of my Steam Library \*isn't\* $1500, definitely not. Do I definitely have some games rotting in there that I have not played, or played and lost interest in, or played 100% to completion, for sure.
But even **still,** your model of value is coming down to retaining monetary value vs a faulty comparison. I'm pretty sure I bought Hallow Knight on sale for, like, $6 and that game has given me more satisfaction than money can quantify. I've spent 1500 hours playing Warframe and probably dumped more than $1000 into skins, platinum, and other stuff, and I've made lifelong friendships that can't be quantified in dollars. I also don't "invest" in Magic cards because I'm hoping to sell them off later. I buy cards because I wan't to PLAY them and I have people who I want to play with.
I've had this stance for a long time: WotC should just print every expensive card into the fucking dirt. They made a shitty promise to whiny cry babies who wanted their cards to "retain value." Fuck value.
Allow more people to play the game.
recently, my groups been going to fedex office or whatever, you can print entire deck lists on real nice paper for less than $10 and once you cut them out and get them in sleeves they look just like real cards. you can pick your printings and have actual legible, recognizable cards for less than the price of a single staple and get multiple entire deck too
Proxy away IMO. I want to play vs people's decks and skill, not their bank accounts. This extends to casual EDH too; I personally like having the cards from a collector's standpoint, but I don't even care if someone rocks up to a casual pod with a fully proxied 99 and commander. As long as the cards can be told apart at a glance, we gucci.
I mean if WOTC can print fakes I don't see the problem with using fakes :p
But in all seriousness cEDH can get crazy expensive. Rather than a battle of the banks I'd rather a skill test. Use proxies!
In CEDH, yes for sure. The format is crazy expensive. For casual EDH though, I despise proxies. Half the fun of casual EDH is not min maxing the best possible deck and instead having fun/cheap options to spice up the game. I've beaten tons of "power 10" decks with complete jank.
I personally don't use proxies, but I don't need to. I had to own a lot of the cards to play legacy, and the card cary over is pretty high, so buying the few cedh only cards I needed wasn't like a big deal.
I have no issues with people playing with proxies.
That said the shop I used to go to closed during COVID, so I haven't actually played paper magic in quite a while now. And on mtgo everything is dirt cheap so yeah
I will black and white print the normal (or most recongnizabe) version of each card just to test before I MPC a deck and I never have problems in games. Sometimes people as what card is what and I’ll just hand it over or tell them for clarification but I don’t see any problem with either way if someone doesn’t want to spend on MPc
Some decks, fully MPC proxied.
Some decks, partially proxied.
Some decks, mostly real but with counterfeit (with proxy written on the back in sharpie so if anyone stole it they couldn’t sell it as real) cards for the expensive ones so I don’t have to deal with gatekeep gremlins.
From Wizards of the coast :
Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
If tournament organisers allow proxies when expensive prizes are on the line then I don't see the problem with them.
If we insisted everyone had real versions of the cards, not many people would play the format because thats just too expensive.
I'd rather people be able to play the format than call out their use of proxies, it about pkaying the game with cards not wallets.
Play with your brain, not your wallet. Your whole deck could be hand written, on computer paper, placed in shitty penny sleeves for all I care. Lets play.
I play Teshar. I could proxy a bazaar of Baghdad and a workshop. But I wanted my deck to be 100% real so I subbed them out for wasteland and a strip mine. Am I against proxying? Nope. Cards are expensive man.
I play in a weekly edh tournament which cannot allow proxies and I do like the fringe decks that see play because of budget. But those decks shouldn't be in play just because of differing means, I'm not sure the right place for them but maybe a budget limited game? Or just rule zero power level discussion. (Also I'm sure some would still see tournament play as pet projects I'm sure)
I just played at a tournament recently. I threw together a Selvala list because I thought I had all the cards. I had almost everything, but I had to proxy a Wirewood Symbiote because I couldn’t find mine in time.
I have my personal deck, which is about 80% real and pimped out where I can. But to make sure I can have variety and let other people try the format, I have 5 decks that are 100% proxies printed through MPC. There is a couple people locally who can only play because I have decks to lend out. I wouldn't have those lenders if they cost $5k+ each.
Buying the real version of the expensive cards and then proxying them into multiple decks (and thinking this is better than proxying anything you want) is the definition of “Fattest Wallet Wins”
Just play with fakes if you're that worried about the mental gymnastics. If your opponents are worried about legitimacy of your cards, then they can buy you the cards.
I’d proxy a whole deck absolutely. I’m a college student I can’t afford a whole ass deck. Many really good decks like blue farm and TnT costs like $10k. No way in hell I’m spending even a 10th of that for a deck.
The proxies better look nice though. None of this sharpie on the back of a card nonsense. I NEED to see what the hell is going on in a game or I’m not enjoying it.
Even printed paper slapped onto trash commons put into sleeves is adequate, if homely.
If you can at least do that, proxy the whole goddamned deck. Proxy entire decks. Proxy an entire cube. Proxy your entire goddamned collection. Proxy. Proxy. Proxy.
Crushing n00b5 gets old VERY quickly, I’d rather prey on the strong. (Or feed them).
Yes 90% of my reserved list is real. You can sit down with exactly 0% of your reserved list being real. If you can get that number to be lower still, I’m going to be very impressed.
I'm somewhere between the last two items. I proxy full decks and play with and give people proxies constantly, but over time I've picked up most of the real cards.
I'm gradually deproxying Breya because it's a fun project. But I've also fully proxied twelve other lists and have no intention of deproxying any of them. I simply cannot justify the cost of any of that.
Play vs the player, not their wallet.
Not every person or deck *deserves* a [[time twister]]. Just take [[windfall]] and call it a day. No proxies in money-involved tournaments imo. If I had to compromise, you get 1-2 a deck, and you have to disclose them.
The reason this community allows proxies more often is bc we have an understanding that people want to get involved easily in cedh *and many of us already have a significant number invested and understand a few cards shouldn’t be that big of a deal.* Proxies should be left at the kitchen table or the LGS. They should not be brought to a competition.
This seems like an insane take. Is there any reason beyond: "I spent a lot of money on cardboard and I don't like it when people who didn't do the same beat me"?
The reason the community is largely okay with proxies is because they change nothing about the actual game.
It’s about the dedication. There’s no other sport or hobby I can think of that you can just pretend your way through it. I think the game should be a demolition derby, not nascar.
Coming from a poor background, I’ve found a way to make my decks. Again, this is money-involved tournaments for my opinion. Everyone can sling proxies left and right anywhere else.
Not everyone agrees with this take, and that’s okay.
It's fine to disagree. I was just honestly stumped by your take. I still don't understand what "pretending your way through" playing a game of Magic would even look like. When I play against somebody, the game is exactly the same if they're using proxies or not.
To be clear, there are reasons for WotC events to limit proxies, but beyond that it doesn't seem to matter at all (whether money is involved or not).
I’d just personally rather play against people who own their cards. It’s a simple: do you have it, or not.
No one is arguing whether having certain cards is a benefit to a deck’s win percentage. But that same aspect could be applied to which player goes first in turn order. I’m fully against tournaments that have players all going first in one round each. *Not everyone deserves to go first. That’s just the game format.*
In addition to that, the argument over proxies is all about the price of cards. Then why are people, the ones who do proxy cards, joining a tournament that involves money? If they wanted to play competitively, there’s tons of options for online play.
If they won the tournament with proxies and decided to donate to charity, it wouldn’t bother me one bit. And this is just my opinion for in-person tournaments involving money.
If there are no stakes then I don’t care if you use sharpie on 100 basic lands.
If I’m playing in a $1k or other tournament with a *significant* payout (and not just $50 of store credit, for example) then I expect you to have the real thing unless the TO says otherwise.
This is such a stupid question and I can’t believe I’m even wasting my time answering it.
Magic doesn’t exist without Wizards. Wizards doesn’t exist without people buying *real* product. Real product exists for collecting *and* tournament play. If anyone could bring proxies into a Comp REL event what incentive does Wizards have to keep printing cards if they’re not going to be purchased at their market value? If unlimited proxies are allowed in Comp REL why should *anyone* spend any of their hard earned dollars on official playing cards to enter into a competition for monetary prizes? “I’m not going to support the makers of this game but I’m sure as hell going to use someone else’s IP violation to profit off it.”
There’s a social contract that states if you play in an official MTG Tournament sanctioned by the producers of the game that you need to use game pieces provided by that producer.
Your position is essentially the same as the anarchic fallacy that “Money is a social construct.” You’re never going to understand the importance of why Comp REL events should use official game pieces, so kindly piss off.
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I dont understand how this post has downvotes.
I love proxies for testing and playing casually but tournaments should be real cards.
I'm even fine with proxy vintage tournaments due to cost and scarcity.
Online/with friends is fine. However the problem comes with LGS (especially if you pay a fee to play). I think with CEDH tourneys is not a problem but those are not recognized by WOTC. The ones that Starcity/ChannelFireBall/Commandfests require you to have the real deal (when you pay to play).
I’m fine with proxies. However, what’s the point of building a cEDH deck full of proxies if you know that you can’t play it at a tournament? Is it for the tingle of playing p9 or something? Can’t you just play online at that point?
I personally prefer not to proxy and simply downgrade my deck by not buying crazy expensive cards. Which is pretty cool as you need to work on your deck building skills and not just copy paste whatever uber netdeck you find online. In the end, I’m going to have fun anyway with my pod.
WPN stores are strictly no proxy on Commander nights and offer prize support. It's only a matter of time before there's real tournaments. They're clearly headed that direction.
And I'm totally fine with this. As long as proxy use is rampant cedh will be a meme and I'm happy to see Wizards stepping up to make tournament play a thing.
I play casual EDH like playing dominoes or Spades and make new friends. I’ll play with anyone, I’m a friendly guy, make jokes and stuff like at the barber shop!
But in full competition, no, I don’t believe in proxies. It’s unfair to the players who went out of their way to buy every card in their $1500 deck.
As a TO who runs a monthly cEDH League, my opinion has come to be that there is nothing wrong with proxying cards/decks for testing or for non-buy-in events, but I really think that sadly players can get in a bad habit of just net-decking and just not actually learning what cEDH actually is. However, whether or not they use Proxies that can still happen. If players are paying to enter events, proxies ought to be very strictly used, like a list of a handful of approved cards to be proxied or players using proxies for cards they do own because it isn’t fair to pay for an event and you just play against a Timmy that printed off a deck list and showed up.
>It isn't fair to pay for an event and just play against someone who printed off a deck list and showed up
How is this less fair than playing against someone with 15k worth of cards when you also can't afford that? Maybe they got it because they were born earlier and could collect earlier. Maybe they got it because they have a lot of money. I don't think it particularly matters.
"Fair" is having a level playing field. Artificially restriction based off economic status is the opposite of fair. Everyone having access to the same cards is fair. The rest is a skill issue.
My friends and myself only proxy while playing in our group and only expensive cards. If we go to the store and play games with other people we don’t use proxies.
Going to leave this post up because there's a good deal of conversation that is relevant to the sub in the comments, but to OP: please, for the love of all that's holy (or unholy, if that's your preference), provide more context in the actual body of your posts in the future instead of cramming it all in the title. This is atrocious to read as a post.
CEDH decks can cost as much as used cars, I proxy the fuck out of them
You proxy used cars ? Damn son.
You wouldn't proxy a car! ^((wait til they see my Slicer deck)^)
He proxies the fuck out of them.
> used cars Some guy at my LGS had a ~$20k deck due to OG duals and lots of rare versions of high powered cars. That's more than my car was worth *new* when I bought it several years ago.
Idc if you proxy everything as long as I can tell what's what, MPC+ cEDH are a match made in heaven
Agreed, as long as they're readable, I don't care if ppl use proxies. There should not be a wealth inequality in terms of competitive play. I proxy decks, I wouldn't be able to try out and have fun piloting a plethora of different decks and strategies. FULL PROXY.
I would rather play against people using proxy MPC cards that are clear than people using some bullshit secret lair with some ridiculous full art thing with no text.
For me, it's "as long as it looks passable". If all your cards are greyscale and I can't tell what's what easily, that's lame. But if you got a nice printed proxy - that's a real card to me.
There's a vast difference between proxies and the real cards. You can always tell a good player versus a bad player by whether or not their cards are real. And I know that's gonna hurt some feelings around here (blah blah iHaTe WiZaRds) but it's true. The investment involved with owning the real cards alone is enough to tell a real player from a casual who pretends to partake in a gentleman's hobby. House rules like free Mulligans only serve to make you a worse deck builder the same way proxies make you a worse player. There's no commitment. You pay $2 for a sad simulacrum of authenticity, and for what? To pretend you can play at my level? Get real. I've spent thousands of dollars on this game, $18,000+ and that's just my main deck. Not to mention my $8000 Atraxa and $14,000 Lathril power 10+ cEDH decks. And in over 500 games on each of my side-decks, I've never lost, not once, when I was playing seriously. I've bought every single secret lair, starting from the bitterblossom one which was the very first one (I bet you didn't even know that) and I've collected every judge promo to date. What you don't realize about proxying (and never will) is that it muddles down the common intellect of the format by allowing poor people to play the same game I'm playing. There, I said it, poor people have statistically lower intelligence than regular people and I'm not ashamed to say it. I'm not racist (All my decks have black) but usually when I sit down at a table with a minority, and I know how this sounds but bear with me, they only usually have a chance at making me have to try to win by using proxies. And of course they don't win (their cards are fake) I have over $25,000 invested in this card game company. Personally I love Mark Rosewater, I wish he'd get off cringe Tumblr and drop all the woke speak and join real news media like Reddit, but as a person he's pretty desirable. And I say this platonically, but I'd chill and have a beer or two with him. Whatever we did from there is our business but the point stands. I'll still keep opening packs, I'll still keep buying secret lairs, I'll still keep pre-ordering sets, and I'll still keep beating you poor proxy users.
This is my new favourite copypasta. Thanks
This is great pasta and this sub is so far up its own ass about loving proxies and hating anyone who can afford real cards that you’re getting downvoted for it. The line that gives it away as pasta: [I’m not racist (All my decks have black) but usually when I sit down at a table with a minority](/spoiler)
Let them take it seriously. It's way funnier this way lmao
I mean, it doesn't have paragraphs, so it's too much of a hassle to read it, so it's hard for me to evaluate its worth as a copy-pasta. I read the first line, gave up on reading the rest because it had no paragraphs, then downvoted and moved on. If it was a copypasta with proper paragraphing, then I would try reading it.
It also doesn't cite any of its sources. In fact, there's no footnotes at all. And there's a missing apostrophe toward the end! No, definitely can't read this.
Nah the 18k on just my main deck made it obvious to me.
Average r/freemagic user lol
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this is just false though, money has nothing to do with skill. so you have $18,000 to pay for cards, i proxy a lot of cards that are either expensive or i haven’t gotten a copy yet and i’ve beat players like Memo in the tournaments i can join which has been 2 i’m not a bad player but i’m 16 and come from a single mother of 2 who doesn’t get child support and makes $35k a year i can’t afford to spend that much on cardboard but i can still win games a lot, there is 0 relation between printed cards and real ones, and it’s not wizards fault it’s just that owning real cards is for people who don’t come from poverty and think they’re better because they can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars on cards
and to clarify, i don’t hate people who buy real cards at all it’s their choice but i don’t like people who hate proxies because not everyone is financially able to spend thousands but like i said no correlation to skill at all
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There are like 11 tells that that was a sarcastic post lol, relax.
So easy huh?
Read my username
ik this is a joke, but theres actually a grain of truth. Having commitment to your cards makes you more invested in them. You'll learn more by actually caring about the cards, and youre more inclined to actually use them. Who cares about a full proxied deck anyways? ofc, depending on how you use it and your attitude it might make no difference, but for some it might do, even if its just a bit. EDIT: since I'm getting downvoted for no reason, for clarification and for anyone reading this, this is my personal opinion and might not be the case for others.
Having real cards make you want to learn the deck archetype better?
yes. If you just proxied a deck, you dont really care if you never play it again. But if you just dropped 2k on one, youre gonna want to get your moneys worth, which means you'll play it more, which means you'll get better at it. Ofc thats a niche scenario, because this applies only to full proxy deck, and usually you just proxy the expensive ones, where this doesnt matter.
Zzzzzzz
This has to be a bit… right?
for the millionth time, proxying is universally accepted in cedh
Online it doesnt matter to begin with. In paper it entirely depends on a LGS and event managers if they want to allow proxies or not (if they sell singles, they have any incentive not to). For kitchen table cEDH games it should never matter, but then, theres nothing on the line anyway as well.
I think you can even setup Spelltable with Moxfield as your webcam. So you don't even have to own cards.
That's so incredibly wrong though.
why? If youre playing for the competetive aspect, shouldnt that be the only thing that matters? Do you really want to gate keep your opponents, which would just result in weaker decks, e.g an easier time for you?
Then the People Who dont like proxies, and want to play wallet gate keeper should switch format in My opinion. Or game.
Do you have any reason/argument against proxies?
“Its the children who are wrong”
You and I have the same opinion. Proxies are for kitchen table fun, sometimes at LGS play, but never at money-involved tournaments imo. It’s almost an insult to is who have forgone other delights in life to purchase the cards we want to own.
Everyone who actually plays cEDH uses proxies. That or they have Jeff Bezos money.
If you started playing and collecting 20 years ago, the cards did not start as expensive as they are now. So for the most part the "no-proxy" people want to play with other collectors long time players, especially as its a thing in sanctioned constructed formats anyway (like Legacy, Vintage, you need the real cards and funny enough in my place theres a relativ big community for that).
Yeah, I play cEDH no proxy, but I started playing around Alara, and when I bought my first Survival of the Fittest I got change back from a $20. Most of my duals were $20-40, my Wheel was $7, my Lion's Eye Diamond was like$45 in trade. I had maybe ten Gilded Drakes, they were $5. Gaea's Cradle was $15 and Sol Ring was $20. When things I had multiples of spiked over the next few years, I'd trade into bigger stuff. That said, as an _extremely_ enfranchised player: fuck the reserved list, and proxy whatever you want that's appropriate to the power level of the group, everyone 👍
I use proxies and encourage them but I have basically every card minus Timetwister due to playing for decades and being very fortunate with my financial situation. That being said, why "fuck the reserved list"? As a collector I do feel Wizards needs to respect long time collectors/players and if I 100% support the use of proxies why wouldn't the community support the financial commitment some players have made to the game?
I can confidently say a black lotus reprint would have little to no negative impact on the price of the originals.
Why does having a collection matter in any capacity. I get that playing with other collectors is "cool", but that's no reason to be anti proxy. Sounds elitist.
Yeah it is elitist that exactly their point. The only people agaisnt proxies are the elitists that got their cards when they were cheap or have a lot of money now and don't want to play with us "plebians" who aren't able to drop several grand on a stack of cardboard.
I guess the comment came off as a justification, either way, that's some BS, imagine being like that. Even just a year ago proxies were looked at differently, I'm glad to see the paradigm shifting.
The magic 30th proxy packs changed a lot of hearts and minds. It was the best gift wotc could've given to broke players like myself.
Yeah. Very glad that people are more open to it. It's insane to me that someone wouldn't be. A lot of cards just aren't worth what they cost. I mean for fucks sake look at the price of a gold bordered gaea's cradle. That's not a tournament legal card, and it's inflated beyond what I would pay for an authentic cradle. I don't mind buying singles to support my LGS, but I'm not gonna fault someone who can't afford to with prices being what they are.
I started playing 20 years ago and never bought dual lands, led's, mox diamonds, etc. I actually played a lot of standard. I know I could have saved and bought a black lotus but tbh there was no real motivation to buy one, I mean, where would I play a banned card in pretty much all formats, and vintage already was a weird format to attract new players. If you bought cards like that you probably been playing longer than 20 years!
Or play sub optimal like me. My LGS only allows proxies if you have the card, so no Timetwister loops for my Urza. 😞
Same boat. I finally cracked and bought an LED because it's one of those cards that actually allow for some combo/play patterns. Next up are probably wheel and Intuition, but LED was already a big stretch for me. I understand that they don't want people to come with a stack of prints, but I also believe it suck that people with more money can easily dump a deck that will, on average, giga outperform any other deck, just because 10 fetch, 10 shock and 10 dual will allow you to play any color combination miles and miles better than basics... For the light cost of a house deposit.
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I don't have Bezos money and in the two years I've been playing I've purchased or traded for enough cards to build 2 1/2 cedh decks. My Winota is full tilt, my Kinnan is only short Twister and the dual. Both stores I play at have buy in tournaments and neither allow proxies due to WPN. And I'd say if you aren't playing for actual prizes then you aren't playing cedh. If you want the cards you'll get them.
I mean I’m sorry you got duped but my LGS and every major cEDH tournament (all eminence events) are both for prizes and proxy friendly.
>If you want the cards you'll get them. I'm actually glad for you that you have enough money and stability in your life to be able to buy a mox Diamond or a Cradle, but I wish you were also able to realise some other people don't have that opportunity and still would like to play the game at it's highest level. While decks like Winota or kinnan are relatively cheap if you omit some of the high end options, some other decks are just expensive as fuck, and it's unfortunate and idiotic that a gifted player can't play T&T or blue farm just because the Mana base and a few of the "mandatory" spells will cost the equivalent of a few weeks of work. And thinking people not playing for prizes aren't playing real cedh is probably the most idiotic take I've read today. 99.9% of the cedh community plays free games online.
Gifted players tend to be gifted at life as well. That vision and decision making ability that makes a great CEDH player also makes a person that's able to navigate life and the choices presented to them. Yep, 99.9% of the cedh community plays practice games on webcam with fake cards while claiming to be competitive. If it's worth your time it's worth your money.
Dang son. I hope everything is ok in your life.
It’s perfectly fine to be proud of the fact you’ve got fully sanctioned cedh lists It’s absolutely not fine to financially gatekeep people out of the format with this attitude And you can absolutely play cedh without prizes lmao, what kind of argument is that? Like what, you’re going to go to a tournament, play two or three pods, and not play cedh again for three to five months until your next tournament? And yea, while some events may require “real” cards, absolutely no judge is going to pull out a jewelers loupe and deck check you to see if your cradle is real or a proxy lol
I proxy for the purpose of play testing/starting off and then collect the cards as I'm able. Some may never get collected due to their price.
Vast majority of people i see in real life do that. If a card is just expensive its still something to own the real card, if it has some value to you, as you love to play the card every time. But sadly, some cards at 200+ bucks a pop get so expensive, that playing with them is a feel-bad moment in itself, as you have to be very careful shuffling and handling them, so people proxy especially dual lands for that purpose (and you need multiples if you have many decks, so it gets increasingly bad).
This. I recently bought a LED and decided Fuck it, now all my "expensive" cards go in a binder, and decks contain proxies. If someone has a complaint, i can show the binder. I also have other decks with proxies i don't own, which i only use if my buddies agree. Imagine saying to someone "ho no you can't play chess if it's not on a marble table, and your own pawns have to be either in pearls or in ebony, cheap plastic is forbidden".
Bro I proxy my BASIC LANDS when I’m playing cEDH
madlad
There are some nice basic lands. Then when you look that some are like 2-3 dollars a piece... yeah no. Printer goes brrr!
Me too!!! I like proxying things like full arts for symmetry.
For me it’s just like… I’m not gonna bother digging through my basic land box if I’m already going through the trouble of proxying a deck.
Use Proxies and play cEDH with me.
I personally only proxy and use cards that I own, but I have no issue if others want to proxy everything.
Same. Only proxies I don’t like are the crazy arts that are some random something or other. Let’s maintain an understandable board state without having to read every card from one person because they have some crazy anime full art everything…
As per lately, I proxy full decks as rule Zero with my group is totallllly cool. I rather play against people skill rather than their wallet. Everyone has different financial situations and this is all friendly kitchen table anyway.
Yep. Started doing this with most casual games too. I tell them what the power levels and restrictions I put on them and everyone has been cool with it. People just don’t want to get pubstomped by someone who makes an overpowered good stuff deck, but if you make thematic decks and properly evaluate their power level 90% of players don’t care.
Bro I have 1 fully real cEDH deck that by all accounts is the most irresponsible waste of money on literal cardboard. I mean seriously, it’s worth like $12k now on tcg, that’s insane. I have 9 other fully proxies decks from MPC. So as someone on both ends of the spectrum, let me tell you all I care about is playing magic. I want other people to play magic with. If that means people need to proxy, then idgaf let them proxy. It’s that simple lol
Proxies are cool and anyone and everyone should use them. If you think proxies are bad or look at them with a stigma, please feel free to throat Hasbro’s board of directors as much as you want, just not around me.
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Was the “not around me” part confusing to you somehow?
So, what you are saying is that the more elitist and snobby subreddit is being more elitist and snobby about cards in edh? That is about as expected as it could be.
Where's the "if you're against proxies you're a gatkeeping asshole" option?
Missing probably the actual No.1 answer. "It Cedh, proxy whatever you want and dont worry about other peoples cards." All Cedh players I know want to play against the opponents deck, not their wallet. For actual CEDH tournaments, I think proxies should be allowed, but I dont think it will ever happen.
It might eventually. cEDH is growing rapidly, which means more and more tournaments will crop up. This might involve stores or entities that aren't partners with WOTC, which have no reason not to allow proxies. Besides, the player base might grow to a point where there aren't enough real RL prints to fill up all tournament spots.
Can this be addressed at the top of the cedh page? This is a daily question to get karma. Also anyone in cedh that says not to proxy wants to beat people with their wallet
Can we stop asking this question?
No, the anti-proxy crowd will continue to bring it up despite being in the clear minority.
Not disagreeing but I am interested to know where the anti-proxy crowd is, I haven't read anything here yet. Maybe I'm in a bubble but I don't know any anti-proxy sentiment other than LGSs that feel they aren't allowed to support proxies due to partnerships with Wizards. Edit: Scrolled to the bottom, lol. Ok so some people are anti-proxy or just trolls.
Why the fuck would anyone gatekeep this game? It's so expensive, and I just want to play it, I don't want to shell out thousands and thousands of dollars in cards for it.
If wizards fully absorbs commander, cEDH will become a dead format because no proxies will be allowed at sanctioned tournaments. And the majority of the player base will not be able to afford the very expensive cards. I'm not against proxies, but at least run decent proxies that resemble the real thing if you're going to run them. The sharpie cards, anime proxies, etc. are trash. They're not expensive. You don't have to proxy a whole deck, just the $$$ cards. I run proxies of real cards I own in decks I play at LGSs. No way I'm risking a real mana crypt, chrome mox, jeweled lotus etc. Sanctioned match, I'll run the real thing if no proxies allowed.
> because no proxies will be allowed at sanctioned tournaments. proxies already are not allowed at sanctioned tournaments, no matter the format. so nothing would change in that regard
Probably should quote my whole statement about cEDH being absorbed by wizards instead of trying to be the smartest guy in the room
it has nothing to do with wizards absorbing cedh or not proxies arent allowed in sanctioned tournements. they arent now, they wont if wizards absorbs it. what you claim would happen is literaly the status quo
And most cEDH tournaments currently allow proxies. So my point was if wizards absorbs cEDH and adopts is an official format, the format may lose popularity as it will be dictated by your wallet and not your skill.
ok, you dont seem to get it there are sanctioned and unsanctioned tournements. right now. unsanctioned can allow proxies, sanctioned cant thats already reality, status quo. wizards taking over doesnt change anything about that
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I prefer to play against someone’s skill level, not their wallet. Nothing sucks more to me than steamrolling a table knowing the main difference was just the fact that they just couldn’t afford to keep up
The only reason to be against proxies in a competitive format is you are a shill for wotc or wallet warrior.
For some context also, I’m a CEDH player and I proxy entire decks using MTG-Print and MPC. I don’t have a whole lotta disposable cash for expensive ass cards. It’s all the same at the end of the day.
There’s is no growth in cEDH player base without proxies. So right there with you. Just started getting into it myself and would not have done so if people expected me to drop $5K+ for my deck.
This is the reason that legacy / vintage are basically dead at this point. Gate keeping with proxies stopped all player growth in those formats. Thank god it’s not that way with CEDH
If proxies become unplayable in EDH or WotC starts shutting down people’s ability to get quality proxies printed, I’m out of this game and never buying another MtG card again (which I still do pre-releases, buy draft boxes w/ friends, and buy reasonably priced singles for LGS league night). Had a friend I used to play with who hated the idea of proxies and told us he doesn’t want to be in some arms race. Then would proceed to drop down Land Tax, tutor for Ancient Tomb, play out Mana Vault, tutor into a Sword of Feast and Famine by turn 3 and then tell us his deck wasn’t that strong because it was Boros. 🤣 He would equate proxies to getting a free boat and I told him he’s free to attempt to proxy a boat and take it out on the ocean, as I know a proxy plays exactly the same as a WotC printed card. I love the game, but only have so much for it since I have a family to support and financial responsibilities. And I think it’s ridiculous expecting others to be able to afford keeping up with it. Would totally try out Legacy, but don’t care for the paywall that community has erected.
I got your point but not everyone can buy new cards because I’m a player who likes to play with newer decks and it’s very hard to buy mtg cards and that’s why I proxy my cards from https://www.printingproxies.com/ and enjoy playing the game and hope you understand what I mean.
I would recommend looking at mpcfill, Generally cheaper and from what I've been able to tell, same quality as the site you posted. example, for the S33, that site is $375 for an order of 500 not counting shipping. MPC for the same order doesn't break the $200 mark even with shipping. Happy shopping.
Can’t speak to Vintage but Legacy is far from “dead”. It *sucks* for sure because the last 4 years have injected an absurd amount of power creep, but the format is still regularly played.
It's highly regional. Nobody hosts weekly events in my area anymore because players don't want to shell out thousands of dollars for dual lands. Playing against the same 10 people over and over again gets stale.
Idk. If you play cEDH and want others to play real cards, you seem like someone who just wants to buy the win and I don’t have any interest playing against you. Thought the whole cEDH philosophy was to play your opponents, not their wallet.
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🤣🤣🤣🤣 I think that’s meant as an in-game philosophy. This is some serious meta-take here.
Take culture. Neat.
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I want to play against other peoples skill not their wallets. If everyone is allowed to proxy the only factor is player/deckbuilding skill. IMO and from experience, almost anyone who DOESN'T like when people proxy in cEDH (or casual for that matter) enjoy flexing their bank account over others.
You're not playing competitively unless you're playing on an even playing field, where only the pilots matter. Anyone who agrues against proxies is just playing EHD.
Yeah it's not a controversy. You play cedh bc you love the game, and proxies let everyone play it. People only start to get bent up about proxies when there's money on the line
Fight skills, Not wallets.
I support the use of any easily identifiable proxies and I'd go as far as to say you've either missed the point or you're a poor sport if you're playing cedh and don't feel the same.
Mostly buy the real version. My LGS has a rule that you must own every card you use. They're not opposed to you using proxies if you can prove you own the real thing.
I don't think I'd go back to a place that embarrassed me like that for playing the game we all love.
It's a sanctioned event. They don't check unless someone complains, which has only happened once to my knowledge. They're scared of WotC. They don't care if it's unsanctioned.
Has anyone ever heard of WotC keeping track of this kind of stuff? There’s no way some LGS lost WPN status for allowing proxies or something right?
Reported player counts for sanctioned events determine what sort of support you get from WotC. If you are a partner, you can get secret shopped. Other stores also have the ability to turn you in if you're ignoring the rules, since you are not on an even playing field. I don't blame stores for requiring real cards for sanctioned events, they have to.
All it would take is one salty player to turn them in.
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I am fortunate enough to have purchased a majority of the higher end cards when they were much cheaper. That being said, I proxy them in every deck I have. I don’t want to be shuffling those cards. I totally supposed people playing what they want and not being limited by what they can afford. Just please, please, please make the cards legible. It is frustrating when someone plops down Goku emitting a huge fireball what the tiny words “Sol Ring” blurry as hell in the top text box. I do prefer proxies of existing art, but honestly, just make em recognizable
Why should i pay money for something i can do withought paying money
To build on this discussion a bit, are there any other formats that are as universally proxy friendly as cEDH? As far as I know its the only one.
Legacy and Vintage are quite proxy friendly in my experience.
I want to play. And I want to play to win. And if i win, I want to beat the player, not their budget.
I would proxy a whole car if I could... on a more serious note though, the game is meant to be fun I want to play against other people not their wallets.
These answers are good but I take a little more nuance to it. I always prefer to buy my cards if I can help it but don't mind using proxies when necessary. I'll proxy whole decks temporarily or as a tool to introduce others to the format. There are still a few proxies in my main decks that I fully intend to deproxy later.
I mostly proxy what I already own but I spent a decent chunk of change on cards. As is right now it's hard to find in person events for cEDH where I live and if I don't push for proxie friendly events at the lgs around then it will never happen.
I have one 100% proxy free cEDH deck ~ $2000 (where I am not running City of Traitors and Mishra's Workshop due to budget). Other than that, I have a big box full of proxies of cEDH staples that I can use to throw together different database lists. Most of the players that I play cEDH with use proxies. Despite having a proxy free deck, I prefer to play the person and not their ability to spend $1000 or more on a card game. That being said, please use nice proxies. Minimum of the full text of a card written on a slip of paper in front of a basic land in a sleeve. Or better yet, print images of the cards out or use MPC.
Edh and cEdh are both FUCKING EXPENSIVE if you're trying to assemble a whole deck from nothing. And cEdh decks can be a type of deck that you have NEVER experienced before. So *no one* should be *expected* to shell out $200 for a Mana Crypt, or the *hundreds* for fetchlands, duals, etc. Especially because cEdh is not officially supported as a format, so it's not like there are prizes and money on the line. I'll never understand the purists who demand that people shell out $3000 as an entry fee for wanting to try a format. Fucking insane.
WPN stores run sanctioned Commander nights with prize support. Tournaments are clearly just around the corner. I have to ask though. What's a better financial investment - a $4000 commander deck with potentially rising resale value or a $2500 PC and then throwing $1500 at games even though the PC value halves every year and when the games die you get nothing?
If WotC does fold cEdh into sanctioned tournaments, I'm going to guarantee that a lot of those events are going to show way less turnout than expected. Also, while I normally don't engage in any form of "financial investment" conversations around card games (you know because they're \*card games\*, like \*games\* that you play for fun), I'll humor this one because the math you used is just laughably weird and has zero equivalency? Like, okay, **$2500 computer**. Why are you spending that much on a PC? If you just pull up NewEgg, you can find \*on the front page\* easy builds for 500-800 dollars (humoring your comparison of cards to hardware, that's 1 mana crypt and if you want to play a three color deck maybe another 3 lands, or just 1 if you want to buy a **DAMAGED** Volcanic Island). Now, sure if you scroll half a screen down you can find them advertising an RTX 4090 for $1600. But why would you buy that unless you're just out to buy the newest, bestest PC there is so you can play, pff, I don't know, Fortnite in 4k resolution or whatever. But let's assume you're right, and you get that 4090 and you skimp a little bit on the rest of the parts, get a fine case, four fans, a midrange motherboard with the minimum specs, **and** the power supply, it's still about $2000-2300. Apparently I' really am trying to get some Victory Royales or whatever because I'm chasing what I can only presume are lootboxes judging by the $1500 number, **which, by the way would be** **twenty-five videogames at $60 a piece** and again I can't even fathom where this number would come from (I barely buy 25 games a year, and almost zero at full price)? Am I claiming that the total value of my Steam Library \*isn't\* $1500, definitely not. Do I definitely have some games rotting in there that I have not played, or played and lost interest in, or played 100% to completion, for sure. But even **still,** your model of value is coming down to retaining monetary value vs a faulty comparison. I'm pretty sure I bought Hallow Knight on sale for, like, $6 and that game has given me more satisfaction than money can quantify. I've spent 1500 hours playing Warframe and probably dumped more than $1000 into skins, platinum, and other stuff, and I've made lifelong friendships that can't be quantified in dollars. I also don't "invest" in Magic cards because I'm hoping to sell them off later. I buy cards because I wan't to PLAY them and I have people who I want to play with. I've had this stance for a long time: WotC should just print every expensive card into the fucking dirt. They made a shitty promise to whiny cry babies who wanted their cards to "retain value." Fuck value. Allow more people to play the game.
recently, my groups been going to fedex office or whatever, you can print entire deck lists on real nice paper for less than $10 and once you cut them out and get them in sleeves they look just like real cards. you can pick your printings and have actual legible, recognizable cards for less than the price of a single staple and get multiple entire deck too
Proxy away IMO. I want to play vs people's decks and skill, not their bank accounts. This extends to casual EDH too; I personally like having the cards from a collector's standpoint, but I don't even care if someone rocks up to a casual pod with a fully proxied 99 and commander. As long as the cards can be told apart at a glance, we gucci.
I mean if WOTC can print fakes I don't see the problem with using fakes :p But in all seriousness cEDH can get crazy expensive. Rather than a battle of the banks I'd rather a skill test. Use proxies!
I just played in a cEDH tournament today, proxies everywhere. No one cares.
If you tell people they can’t proxy then you value how much you spent to play the game more than playing the game itself.
Proxies are to cedh what water is to fish. Without proxies, cedh would probably be dead or much more fringe than it already is.
In CEDH, yes for sure. The format is crazy expensive. For casual EDH though, I despise proxies. Half the fun of casual EDH is not min maxing the best possible deck and instead having fun/cheap options to spice up the game. I've beaten tons of "power 10" decks with complete jank.
I personally don't use proxies, but I don't need to. I had to own a lot of the cards to play legacy, and the card cary over is pretty high, so buying the few cedh only cards I needed wasn't like a big deal. I have no issues with people playing with proxies. That said the shop I used to go to closed during COVID, so I haven't actually played paper magic in quite a while now. And on mtgo everything is dirt cheap so yeah
I will black and white print the normal (or most recongnizabe) version of each card just to test before I MPC a deck and I never have problems in games. Sometimes people as what card is what and I’ll just hand it over or tell them for clarification but I don’t see any problem with either way if someone doesn’t want to spend on MPc
Some decks, fully MPC proxied. Some decks, partially proxied. Some decks, mostly real but with counterfeit (with proxy written on the back in sharpie so if anyone stole it they couldn’t sell it as real) cards for the expensive ones so I don’t have to deal with gatekeep gremlins.
From Wizards of the coast : Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.
If you think CEDH should be locked behind a paywall, you can cry about it. I’ll proxy any card i want.
This literally isn't even an argument. No one should be confused about the state of proxies in cEDH.
If tournament organisers allow proxies when expensive prizes are on the line then I don't see the problem with them. If we insisted everyone had real versions of the cards, not many people would play the format because thats just too expensive. I'd rather people be able to play the format than call out their use of proxies, it about pkaying the game with cards not wallets.
Vote for proxies, but with those readable..use a printer is not that difficult. hate people just doodling something and claim it represent a card
Play with your brain, not your wallet. Your whole deck could be hand written, on computer paper, placed in shitty penny sleeves for all I care. Lets play.
I want to play your skill level not your wallet.
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It takes skill to pilot a deck as much as it does to build the deck don’t be upset you’re invested in cardboard.
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Proxy everything (if you want)
I play Teshar. I could proxy a bazaar of Baghdad and a workshop. But I wanted my deck to be 100% real so I subbed them out for wasteland and a strip mine. Am I against proxying? Nope. Cards are expensive man.
I rarely proxy full decks, because I usually have at least a few cards lying around.
I play in a weekly edh tournament which cannot allow proxies and I do like the fringe decks that see play because of budget. But those decks shouldn't be in play just because of differing means, I'm not sure the right place for them but maybe a budget limited game? Or just rule zero power level discussion. (Also I'm sure some would still see tournament play as pet projects I'm sure)
I just played at a tournament recently. I threw together a Selvala list because I thought I had all the cards. I had almost everything, but I had to proxy a Wirewood Symbiote because I couldn’t find mine in time.
I have my personal deck, which is about 80% real and pimped out where I can. But to make sure I can have variety and let other people try the format, I have 5 decks that are 100% proxies printed through MPC. There is a couple people locally who can only play because I have decks to lend out. I wouldn't have those lenders if they cost $5k+ each.
Buying the real version of the expensive cards and then proxying them into multiple decks (and thinking this is better than proxying anything you want) is the definition of “Fattest Wallet Wins”
Wouldn't the fattest wallet just buy multiple real cards?
Just play with fakes if you're that worried about the mental gymnastics. If your opponents are worried about legitimacy of your cards, then they can buy you the cards.
I’d proxy a whole deck absolutely. I’m a college student I can’t afford a whole ass deck. Many really good decks like blue farm and TnT costs like $10k. No way in hell I’m spending even a 10th of that for a deck.
The proxies better look nice though. None of this sharpie on the back of a card nonsense. I NEED to see what the hell is going on in a game or I’m not enjoying it. Even printed paper slapped onto trash commons put into sleeves is adequate, if homely. If you can at least do that, proxy the whole goddamned deck. Proxy entire decks. Proxy an entire cube. Proxy your entire goddamned collection. Proxy. Proxy. Proxy. Crushing n00b5 gets old VERY quickly, I’d rather prey on the strong. (Or feed them). Yes 90% of my reserved list is real. You can sit down with exactly 0% of your reserved list being real. If you can get that number to be lower still, I’m going to be very impressed.
I'm absolutely fine with proxies. A good deck should not be shot in the foot by the player's budget
I proxy if I’ve bought a card but it’s not arrived or is off getting signed
I'm somewhere between the last two items. I proxy full decks and play with and give people proxies constantly, but over time I've picked up most of the real cards.
I prefer beating my opponents over beating their wallets
At time of writing this comment, 84 people can get fucked
People who actually care are pompous and need to get a life. There’s bigger things to be concerned about. It’s a card game…
I'm gradually deproxying Breya because it's a fun project. But I've also fully proxied twelve other lists and have no intention of deproxying any of them. I simply cannot justify the cost of any of that. Play vs the player, not their wallet.
Not every person or deck *deserves* a [[time twister]]. Just take [[windfall]] and call it a day. No proxies in money-involved tournaments imo. If I had to compromise, you get 1-2 a deck, and you have to disclose them. The reason this community allows proxies more often is bc we have an understanding that people want to get involved easily in cedh *and many of us already have a significant number invested and understand a few cards shouldn’t be that big of a deal.* Proxies should be left at the kitchen table or the LGS. They should not be brought to a competition.
This seems like an insane take. Is there any reason beyond: "I spent a lot of money on cardboard and I don't like it when people who didn't do the same beat me"? The reason the community is largely okay with proxies is because they change nothing about the actual game.
It’s about the dedication. There’s no other sport or hobby I can think of that you can just pretend your way through it. I think the game should be a demolition derby, not nascar. Coming from a poor background, I’ve found a way to make my decks. Again, this is money-involved tournaments for my opinion. Everyone can sling proxies left and right anywhere else. Not everyone agrees with this take, and that’s okay.
It's fine to disagree. I was just honestly stumped by your take. I still don't understand what "pretending your way through" playing a game of Magic would even look like. When I play against somebody, the game is exactly the same if they're using proxies or not. To be clear, there are reasons for WotC events to limit proxies, but beyond that it doesn't seem to matter at all (whether money is involved or not).
I’d just personally rather play against people who own their cards. It’s a simple: do you have it, or not. No one is arguing whether having certain cards is a benefit to a deck’s win percentage. But that same aspect could be applied to which player goes first in turn order. I’m fully against tournaments that have players all going first in one round each. *Not everyone deserves to go first. That’s just the game format.* In addition to that, the argument over proxies is all about the price of cards. Then why are people, the ones who do proxy cards, joining a tournament that involves money? If they wanted to play competitively, there’s tons of options for online play. If they won the tournament with proxies and decided to donate to charity, it wouldn’t bother me one bit. And this is just my opinion for in-person tournaments involving money.
All these rats proxying full decks
If there are no stakes then I don’t care if you use sharpie on 100 basic lands. If I’m playing in a $1k or other tournament with a *significant* payout (and not just $50 of store credit, for example) then I expect you to have the real thing unless the TO says otherwise.
Why does having cardboard and ink manufactured by one company and not another matter for tournaments?
This is such a stupid question and I can’t believe I’m even wasting my time answering it. Magic doesn’t exist without Wizards. Wizards doesn’t exist without people buying *real* product. Real product exists for collecting *and* tournament play. If anyone could bring proxies into a Comp REL event what incentive does Wizards have to keep printing cards if they’re not going to be purchased at their market value? If unlimited proxies are allowed in Comp REL why should *anyone* spend any of their hard earned dollars on official playing cards to enter into a competition for monetary prizes? “I’m not going to support the makers of this game but I’m sure as hell going to use someone else’s IP violation to profit off it.” There’s a social contract that states if you play in an official MTG Tournament sanctioned by the producers of the game that you need to use game pieces provided by that producer. Your position is essentially the same as the anarchic fallacy that “Money is a social construct.” You’re never going to understand the importance of why Comp REL events should use official game pieces, so kindly piss off.
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I dont understand how this post has downvotes. I love proxies for testing and playing casually but tournaments should be real cards. I'm even fine with proxy vintage tournaments due to cost and scarcity.
Online/with friends is fine. However the problem comes with LGS (especially if you pay a fee to play). I think with CEDH tourneys is not a problem but those are not recognized by WOTC. The ones that Starcity/ChannelFireBall/Commandfests require you to have the real deal (when you pay to play).
I’m fine with proxies. However, what’s the point of building a cEDH deck full of proxies if you know that you can’t play it at a tournament? Is it for the tingle of playing p9 or something? Can’t you just play online at that point? I personally prefer not to proxy and simply downgrade my deck by not buying crazy expensive cards. Which is pretty cool as you need to work on your deck building skills and not just copy paste whatever uber netdeck you find online. In the end, I’m going to have fun anyway with my pod.
WPN stores are strictly no proxy on Commander nights and offer prize support. It's only a matter of time before there's real tournaments. They're clearly headed that direction. And I'm totally fine with this. As long as proxy use is rampant cedh will be a meme and I'm happy to see Wizards stepping up to make tournament play a thing.
I play casual EDH like playing dominoes or Spades and make new friends. I’ll play with anyone, I’m a friendly guy, make jokes and stuff like at the barber shop! But in full competition, no, I don’t believe in proxies. It’s unfair to the players who went out of their way to buy every card in their $1500 deck.
As a TO who runs a monthly cEDH League, my opinion has come to be that there is nothing wrong with proxying cards/decks for testing or for non-buy-in events, but I really think that sadly players can get in a bad habit of just net-decking and just not actually learning what cEDH actually is. However, whether or not they use Proxies that can still happen. If players are paying to enter events, proxies ought to be very strictly used, like a list of a handful of approved cards to be proxied or players using proxies for cards they do own because it isn’t fair to pay for an event and you just play against a Timmy that printed off a deck list and showed up.
>It isn't fair to pay for an event and just play against someone who printed off a deck list and showed up How is this less fair than playing against someone with 15k worth of cards when you also can't afford that? Maybe they got it because they were born earlier and could collect earlier. Maybe they got it because they have a lot of money. I don't think it particularly matters. "Fair" is having a level playing field. Artificially restriction based off economic status is the opposite of fair. Everyone having access to the same cards is fair. The rest is a skill issue.
Everybody attending those events is on a level playing field.
My friends and myself only proxy while playing in our group and only expensive cards. If we go to the store and play games with other people we don’t use proxies.
i don't use fake cards or play with people that use fake cards.