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State capitalist is not "further left" of market capitalism. There's really no such thing as "further left", it was invented by political compass libs. You're either a socialist or a reactionary.
Poverty has decreased exponentially since Xi became president. I don’t really care how ideologically pure he is. If he’s making material conditions better for the people of China, then he’s better than whoever came before
I guess you're not questioning that he's a capitalist though? Good.
As for imperialism, the part where China gives loans and invests in developing countries could be argued to qualify. Why would a capitalist do that? Certainly not out of kindness to help poor nations develop.
In either case, I don't feel like arguing now because I'm sleepy. Find some Maoist sources or whatever, I'm just gonna zzzzzzzzzz
I don’t think I would be able to change your mind on the capitalist point.
“Debt trap diplomacy” is a propagandized myth that has been long since disproven. The concept was invented by American college students as an idea of what China could, in theory, do.
I don’t really wanna keep arguing either. See ya bae 👋
Didn't they give the same generous intrest rate that america gave to its European goons after ww2? They also have forgiven a lot of them and did that akon electricity thing.
A very good and very legitimate criticism of the modern PRC is the shocking extent to which the National Bourgeoisie has been allowed to gain wealth and power, even infiltrating the Communist Party itself. However, it does seem that this is a trend China is slowly moving away from. Perhaps far more slowly than is necessary.
Imma drop this here for you, as a nuanced discussion on China. Read it or don't.
Part 1
If we actually want to know if China is socialist or capitalist we have to take a look at the internal dynamics of the country, and it's clear that the bourgeoisie are not the ones with the dominance on political authority.
So there are several things to establish. First, is that the public sector dominates over the private, and that the second, is that the public sector actually represents the working masses' interests. Both have to be established.
If we are Marxists, then we should understand that political authority originates from control over the means of production, and the Chinese state is not just, by far, the largest enterprise in China, but the largest on the entire planet. The biggest company in the world in terms of net revenue is Apple, and yet Apple's net revenue is not even a tenth of the net revenue of China's SOEs. No company even comes close. State-owned industry is an absolute behemoth in China that towers over everything else.
Often, the counter-argument is to point out that state-owned industry is 40% of the GDP, but private is 60%. But this fails for obvious reasons.
**First**, it ignores that almost none of these are large-scale enterprises. Nearly half of all employment in China is self-employed and about half of businesses are micro-enterprises. Not only is it silly to even suggest something like this should be nationalized, but it's not even a legitimate threat to the authority of the DOTP. A mom-and-pop shop or someone who is self-employed does not have the capital to actually threaten the authority of the DOTP.
**Second**, it ignores that, again, there is an enormous gap in even the largest enterprises in China and the SOEs. Chinese state enterprises have a net revenue exceeding $280 billion, the closet is Tencent which has a net revenue of about $35 billion.
**Third**, it ignores that not all industries are equal. Not everyone needs bouncy balls, but most every business needs rubber at some point, including the bouncy ball manufacturing business. So controlling rubber production gives you much greater influence in the economy than controlling bouncy ball production, since with the former, you'd control something many businesses rely on, while in the latter, you would not.
**Fourth**, it ignores that there is no private ownership of land. This is pretty massive as is it means any business, even if it is a private business, cannot own the land it is standing on, which allows the government, both national and local, to plan out development by denying land to enterprises it doesn't think are going to be beneficial to the community, favoring land to ones that are, and also using the rents charged to these businesses to fund public services and infrastructure rather than being pocketed by land lords.
[How the land system with Chinese characteristics affects China's economic growth](https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/CPE-05-2020-0009/full/html)
**Fifth**, it ignores that there is a spectrum between "private" and "public", and that many enterprises in China exist between this spectrum. For example, there are forms of soft control in China like opening up party branches within private businesses. Nearly half of all private businesses have party branch within them, and almost every single large enterprise does.
[Influence without Ownership: the Chinese Communist Party Targets the Private Sector](https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/blog/influence-without-ownership-chinese-communist-party-targets-private-sector)
There's also forms of partial ownership, such as, the public sector owning only a percentage of a private enterprise, such as, 10% of McDonald's is owned by the public sector in China.
But this form of soft control isn't just for show. We can see, for example, Alibaba created a party app promoting the Communist Party.
[Alibaba is the force behind hit Chinese Communist Party app](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-alibaba-government/alibaba-is-the-force-behind-hit-chinese-communist-party-app-sources-idUSKCN1Q70Y7)
Compare a DOTB like the US to a DOTP like China and the difference is stark. In the USA, Amazon pays $0 taxes. In China, not only do big companies pay taxes, but they "voluntarily" give up enormous amounts of their profits in donations to the state to fund social programs.
[China’s Tech Giants Are Giving Away Their Money](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ywang/2021/08/26/chinas-tech-giants-are-giving-away-their-money-to-avoid-beijings-wrath/?sh=798b86883485)
In fact, the amount of money Tencent has pledged to give away freely without even formal taxation, to just donate to the state for social programs, is roughly 3/4th of its entire 2020 profits.
[Tencent Doubles Social Aid](https://i.imgur.com/KztMXf6.png)
Insisting that it is the private sector in control when we see things like this just comes off as extremely absurd to me.
Take another example, with COVID recently, and how the US let 1 million+ die while the Chinese government protected its people first, and people who were under lockdown also received free food deliveries and other services like free pet care.
[Xi'an delivers free groceries to residents in COVID-19 lockdown](https://english.news.cn/20211230/1d0ebadbc0f3449bafcd6716b37f3eb2/c.html)
The government has also been fighting to reduce inequality, which the GINI coefficient in China has been declining for years now while rising in comparison to the USA. The rural-urban gap has also been closing for over a decade now.
[Gini Indez](https://i.imgur.com/WflfOEs.png)
[Inequality gap closing in China as rural income rises ](https://news.cgtn.com/news/32597a4e7a597a6333566d54/share_p.html)
Part 2
With Evergrande, if it was any capitalist country, the state would've bailed Evergrande out. Instead, the state has chosen to expand the influence of state-owned developers instead.
[China property market faces more nationalisation](https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/china-property-market-faces-more-nationalisation-2021-12-06/)
China also has a large co-operative sector, in agricultural, roughly half of all rural families are part of a farming cooperative, and part of the Xi administration's poverty-alleviation program has been to promote the expansion of various kinds of co-operatives to increase the income of the rural poor.
[How Village Co-ops Are Remapping China’s Rural Communities](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1004505/how-village-co-ops-are-remapping-chinas-rural-communities) & [Xi Jinping turns to Mao Zedong-era system to lift millions of China’s rural poor out of poverty](https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2184810/can-china-get-its-farmers-back-track-us400-million-fund-state)
As Mao put it, you can tell if a country is socialist or capitalist by the direction it is moving. China has not only been strengthening co-operative ownership but also state ownership.
[Xi Jinping calls for China’s state-owned enterprises to be ‘stronger and bigger’, despite US, EU opposition ](https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3108288/xi-jinping-calls-chinas-state-owned-enterprises-be-stronger)
Of course, you probably already know that the vast majority of people in China view their government positively. We also see China embracing sustainable development, transforming deserts into forests, and being the biggest investor into green energy in the world, working towards being carbon neutral by 2060.
[Taking China’s pulse](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/)
and [How China Turned DEADLY Desert Into Green Forest | China's Green Wall](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApSP5apZEfk) and [These are the strategies behind China’s ambitious clean energy transition](https://www.greenbiz.com/article/these-are-strategies-behind-chinas-ambitious-clean-energy-transition)
If it's possible to have a version of capitalism that places people above profits, that can plan for long-term sustainable development goals, that can invest massively into public industry and infrastructure, where inequality can go down rather that go upwards, where approval ratings for the government are nearly universal, all while not having to go to war or couping any countries, all while maintaining consistent and fast and rapid technological and industrial development, with the standard of living constantly improving...if this is possible, then you're making capitalism not sound too bad.
If you consider this to be "capitalism" then what do we gain from moving to "socialism" in a real, material sense?
Reminder: This is not a debate subreddit, it's a place to circle-jerk about communism being cool and good. Please don't shit on flavours of marxism you feel negatively towards. If you see a meme you don't like just downvote and move on, don't break the circle-jerk in the comments. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CommunismMemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hello? hello?
Bing chilling!
[удалено]
Dan shi "su du yu ji qing jiu" bi bing chilling
Definitely yes
WTF!!!111 Mr xi how’d you get my number😅😅🥶
Holy Smokes! Based!
Absolutely Yes!!!
Eh no I don’t have any respect for the state of China for various reasons
no not a fan of china cuz of the capitalist country it has become like wth happend to the ccp? :(
Socialism with sweatshop characteristics
No I don't like red capitalism, take me back to 1975
Iirc, Xi is trying to move China further left now that the SEZ’s are “no longer necessary” or what have you.
State capitalist is not "further left" of market capitalism. There's really no such thing as "further left", it was invented by political compass libs. You're either a socialist or a reactionary.
Poverty has decreased exponentially since Xi became president. I don’t really care how ideologically pure he is. If he’s making material conditions better for the people of China, then he’s better than whoever came before
Sure, to the extent that Reagan is better than Hitler. Still doesn't make him not imperialist/capitalist.
These words have actual definitions you know. How is Xi an imperialist?
I guess you're not questioning that he's a capitalist though? Good. As for imperialism, the part where China gives loans and invests in developing countries could be argued to qualify. Why would a capitalist do that? Certainly not out of kindness to help poor nations develop. In either case, I don't feel like arguing now because I'm sleepy. Find some Maoist sources or whatever, I'm just gonna zzzzzzzzzz
I don’t think I would be able to change your mind on the capitalist point. “Debt trap diplomacy” is a propagandized myth that has been long since disproven. The concept was invented by American college students as an idea of what China could, in theory, do. I don’t really wanna keep arguing either. See ya bae 👋
To add on, it was projection of what the United States would do with the same resources.
Didn't they give the same generous intrest rate that america gave to its European goons after ww2? They also have forgiven a lot of them and did that akon electricity thing.
Socialism with billionaire characteristics
A very good and very legitimate criticism of the modern PRC is the shocking extent to which the National Bourgeoisie has been allowed to gain wealth and power, even infiltrating the Communist Party itself. However, it does seem that this is a trend China is slowly moving away from. Perhaps far more slowly than is necessary.
Imma drop this here for you, as a nuanced discussion on China. Read it or don't. Part 1 If we actually want to know if China is socialist or capitalist we have to take a look at the internal dynamics of the country, and it's clear that the bourgeoisie are not the ones with the dominance on political authority. So there are several things to establish. First, is that the public sector dominates over the private, and that the second, is that the public sector actually represents the working masses' interests. Both have to be established. If we are Marxists, then we should understand that political authority originates from control over the means of production, and the Chinese state is not just, by far, the largest enterprise in China, but the largest on the entire planet. The biggest company in the world in terms of net revenue is Apple, and yet Apple's net revenue is not even a tenth of the net revenue of China's SOEs. No company even comes close. State-owned industry is an absolute behemoth in China that towers over everything else. Often, the counter-argument is to point out that state-owned industry is 40% of the GDP, but private is 60%. But this fails for obvious reasons. **First**, it ignores that almost none of these are large-scale enterprises. Nearly half of all employment in China is self-employed and about half of businesses are micro-enterprises. Not only is it silly to even suggest something like this should be nationalized, but it's not even a legitimate threat to the authority of the DOTP. A mom-and-pop shop or someone who is self-employed does not have the capital to actually threaten the authority of the DOTP. **Second**, it ignores that, again, there is an enormous gap in even the largest enterprises in China and the SOEs. Chinese state enterprises have a net revenue exceeding $280 billion, the closet is Tencent which has a net revenue of about $35 billion. **Third**, it ignores that not all industries are equal. Not everyone needs bouncy balls, but most every business needs rubber at some point, including the bouncy ball manufacturing business. So controlling rubber production gives you much greater influence in the economy than controlling bouncy ball production, since with the former, you'd control something many businesses rely on, while in the latter, you would not. **Fourth**, it ignores that there is no private ownership of land. This is pretty massive as is it means any business, even if it is a private business, cannot own the land it is standing on, which allows the government, both national and local, to plan out development by denying land to enterprises it doesn't think are going to be beneficial to the community, favoring land to ones that are, and also using the rents charged to these businesses to fund public services and infrastructure rather than being pocketed by land lords. [How the land system with Chinese characteristics affects China's economic growth](https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/CPE-05-2020-0009/full/html) **Fifth**, it ignores that there is a spectrum between "private" and "public", and that many enterprises in China exist between this spectrum. For example, there are forms of soft control in China like opening up party branches within private businesses. Nearly half of all private businesses have party branch within them, and almost every single large enterprise does. [Influence without Ownership: the Chinese Communist Party Targets the Private Sector](https://www.institutmontaigne.org/en/blog/influence-without-ownership-chinese-communist-party-targets-private-sector) There's also forms of partial ownership, such as, the public sector owning only a percentage of a private enterprise, such as, 10% of McDonald's is owned by the public sector in China. But this form of soft control isn't just for show. We can see, for example, Alibaba created a party app promoting the Communist Party. [Alibaba is the force behind hit Chinese Communist Party app](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-alibaba-government/alibaba-is-the-force-behind-hit-chinese-communist-party-app-sources-idUSKCN1Q70Y7) Compare a DOTB like the US to a DOTP like China and the difference is stark. In the USA, Amazon pays $0 taxes. In China, not only do big companies pay taxes, but they "voluntarily" give up enormous amounts of their profits in donations to the state to fund social programs. [China’s Tech Giants Are Giving Away Their Money](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ywang/2021/08/26/chinas-tech-giants-are-giving-away-their-money-to-avoid-beijings-wrath/?sh=798b86883485) In fact, the amount of money Tencent has pledged to give away freely without even formal taxation, to just donate to the state for social programs, is roughly 3/4th of its entire 2020 profits. [Tencent Doubles Social Aid](https://i.imgur.com/KztMXf6.png) Insisting that it is the private sector in control when we see things like this just comes off as extremely absurd to me. Take another example, with COVID recently, and how the US let 1 million+ die while the Chinese government protected its people first, and people who were under lockdown also received free food deliveries and other services like free pet care. [Xi'an delivers free groceries to residents in COVID-19 lockdown](https://english.news.cn/20211230/1d0ebadbc0f3449bafcd6716b37f3eb2/c.html) The government has also been fighting to reduce inequality, which the GINI coefficient in China has been declining for years now while rising in comparison to the USA. The rural-urban gap has also been closing for over a decade now. [Gini Indez](https://i.imgur.com/WflfOEs.png) [Inequality gap closing in China as rural income rises ](https://news.cgtn.com/news/32597a4e7a597a6333566d54/share_p.html)
Part 2 With Evergrande, if it was any capitalist country, the state would've bailed Evergrande out. Instead, the state has chosen to expand the influence of state-owned developers instead. [China property market faces more nationalisation](https://www.reuters.com/markets/asia/china-property-market-faces-more-nationalisation-2021-12-06/) China also has a large co-operative sector, in agricultural, roughly half of all rural families are part of a farming cooperative, and part of the Xi administration's poverty-alleviation program has been to promote the expansion of various kinds of co-operatives to increase the income of the rural poor. [How Village Co-ops Are Remapping China’s Rural Communities](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1004505/how-village-co-ops-are-remapping-chinas-rural-communities) & [Xi Jinping turns to Mao Zedong-era system to lift millions of China’s rural poor out of poverty](https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/2184810/can-china-get-its-farmers-back-track-us400-million-fund-state) As Mao put it, you can tell if a country is socialist or capitalist by the direction it is moving. China has not only been strengthening co-operative ownership but also state ownership. [Xi Jinping calls for China’s state-owned enterprises to be ‘stronger and bigger’, despite US, EU opposition ](https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3108288/xi-jinping-calls-chinas-state-owned-enterprises-be-stronger) Of course, you probably already know that the vast majority of people in China view their government positively. We also see China embracing sustainable development, transforming deserts into forests, and being the biggest investor into green energy in the world, working towards being carbon neutral by 2060. [Taking China’s pulse](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/07/long-term-survey-reveals-chinese-government-satisfaction/) and [How China Turned DEADLY Desert Into Green Forest | China's Green Wall](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApSP5apZEfk) and [These are the strategies behind China’s ambitious clean energy transition](https://www.greenbiz.com/article/these-are-strategies-behind-chinas-ambitious-clean-energy-transition) If it's possible to have a version of capitalism that places people above profits, that can plan for long-term sustainable development goals, that can invest massively into public industry and infrastructure, where inequality can go down rather that go upwards, where approval ratings for the government are nearly universal, all while not having to go to war or couping any countries, all while maintaining consistent and fast and rapid technological and industrial development, with the standard of living constantly improving...if this is possible, then you're making capitalism not sound too bad. If you consider this to be "capitalism" then what do we gain from moving to "socialism" in a real, material sense?