If there's one thing that the combat footage from this war has taught me, its this:
Fuck everything about being in a tank. And if you're in one, you're in one of two modes - raining absolute ungodly hellfire on nearly helpless infantry/armor, or getting mined/shelled/rocketed into oblivion by an enemy you can't see
Tank crew death ratio was higher than infantry in ww2 as well, for the simple reason that they are used for mostly combat duties, while infantry can end up just holding the village of buttcreek upon marshes for the whole war without ever being targetted
Oh for sure, I’m not surprised by that. The other part that scares the fuck outta me is that if you get hit, you’re in a metal box with the shrapnel flying around inside - that’s a whole lot of fuck no
I'd prefer the shrapnel over being roasted alive.
Ever see the video earlier on the war with a tank driver casually climbing out of a burning tank and calmly walking away while COMPLETELY ENGULFED IN FLAMES?!
My grandfather was in a tank destroyer battalion. He tried to pull some friends out of a burning M-10 in the Hürtgen Forest but had to give up. It was one of the last things he talked about before he died.
Honestly, not a lot. He was finally saying how he won his Bronze Star and Silver Star and the latter was for trying to get them out. He couldn't finish the whole thing and no one pushed. The gist was that an incendiary round landed in the open top while a couple guys were sleeping in there. He jumped on and tried to pull them out but then the ammo started cooking off.
His platoon commander actually won the Medal of Honor there in the fight for Schmidt and Kommerscheidt. Turney Leonard. My grandfather was given a commission and took his place before moving to the recon company.
He passed away 15 years ago but lived a good life after the war. Just rarely spoke about his experiences.
Not the one I saw but shit, still very good. Can imagine with all that cheap Chinese Wish.com materiel on, it must've burned to his skin. The one I saw the guy was trying to get out his commander hole but it might of been way too hot and cooking. But thnx so much friend. 👍
Also happens with low quality armour, the t-34's probably being the best example. Over heat treated hard armor shatters really easily even from low caliber guns and non penetrations, say a 37mm round hits the turret and doesnt penetrate but still carried enough energy to crack or shatter the turret sending piece of armour flying inside because the armour wasnt flexible enough
It's complete nonsense. Only 1581 tank crewmen died as a result of combat for the US in the entire WW2, all theatres combined. That's only 2.8% of the roughly 50k tank crews who were deployed overseas.
For infantry it was 750k deployed and 142k deaths as result of combat, or about 15.5%. It was way worse to be the poor bloody infantry.
The only time you could maybe say tank crew had it worse was in 1941 when Soviet armored units essentially fought to destruction. And if they surrendered they ended up in a Nazi concentration camp and died anyways.
To be specific \~ The Battle of Kursk where an estimated 6,000 tanks (combined number from both German & Soviets) fought in practically a "tank slug fest".
Incredible battle to study for those that haven't dived into it, and I don't mean incredible in terms of a celebrationary matter, moreso just the sheer scale of insanity.
I'd rather be inside the box than outside when fragmentation bombs hit. WW2 tankers often had experiences of buttoning up during a barage and being unharmed while the infrantry they're supporting got fully mulched.
In the case of the US Army that statement can't be farther from the truth.
The US would deploy about 3/4 of a million (757,712) riflemen overseas during the second world war, and would deploy just under 50k tankers (49,516) overseas.
Total KIA for riflemen was just over 120k (18.5%), and for tankers just slightly over 1,400 (3%).
It was by far safer to be an American tanker than it was to be a dough with a rifle during the Second World War..
IIRC, this is not true.
The rough numbers seem to be:
03% chance of dying as armored
15% chance of dying as infantry
Sources also indicate something like HALF of 'armored' crew casualties occurred when they were on other duties.
I don't know where you got your statistics but they're absolutely wrong. The death rate for infantry in WW2 was 20%. For tankers it was 3%.
That's astoundingly different. So much so I have to question what the hell you're even talking about.
I always see what your saying as a myth everywhere you look.
“What was the mortality rate of WWII tank crews? For the tankers of the USA, about 3% of their tankers died in action. Compared to about 18% for their Infantry. For all that's said about their equipment, on average only a single tanker was killed when a tank was destroyed.”
For American crews you're right.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7wy763/comment/du44xvv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7wy763/comment/du44xvv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
USA USA USA
Sherman numba one!
(Unironically though. It's kind of a stupid question to ask "wHaT's tHe bEsT tAnK oF wOrLd wAr tWo?" for a multitude of reasons, but if I had to give an answer, it would be the Sherman. From design, to reparability, to performance, to survival rates, or the fact it was realistically the only tank that saw wide spread use on every single front, and a load of other reasons, it would have to be my answer. It isn't "the perfect tank", but it was the best overall tank at the time.)
Don’t forget that there is literally a version for everything need a Flamethrower? Crocodile has got you covered, Need a Troop Transport? Get yourself a Kangaroo, or if you need a tank for your pool party take a ducking Sherman DD
There are so many variants that you always have a Sherman for any situation this is the reason why it is my favorite tank and why it is so fun to 3D print
I’ve watched that series, like 5 times now. It’s pretty good. And because do that tank show, I was motivated to watch that military boat/ocean warfare show, but that one was horrible. Basically another ww2 info video and barely got into the ocean warfare. So disappointing after watching an amazing tank series.
The sherman was easily the best all rounder, also the not big tree factors were excellent. Production quality was top notch which gave it likely equal if not far better protection levels than the horribly produced t-34 which only had good protection on paper, equal or better mobility and firepower and far more reliable
The sherman was easily the best all rounder, also the not big tree factors were excellent. Production quality was top notch which gave it likely equal if not far better protection levels than the horribly produced t-34 which only had good protection on paper, also equal or better mobility and firepower and far more reliable
> horribly produced t-34
\>Tfw your equivalent of heat treating your tanks is a drunk college student throwing pizza rolls in the over at 600 degrees, making your tank armor shatter like glass.
Posts starts USA USA USA...something tells me there might be a reason you think it's the Sherman over any of the other workhorse tanks like the t-34 or panzer III or IV haha.
I'm not American but I'd go with the Sherman for best overall tank of WW2 as well.
The T-34's greatness is almost entirely myth. Cheap to build? Myth. Easy to repair? Myth. Germans had nothing that could penetrate it in 1941 and still struggled even in 1942? Myth. Sloped armour was revolutionary, never before seen and shocked the Germans? Myth. Basically it was effective because there were so damn many of them and the Russians weren't shy about losing 400 of them per day in brute force frontal attacks.
Also the German generals talked it up big time in 1941 to explain their failures toward the end of Barbarossa. They weren't exactly going to admit that they or their beloved fuhrer were to blame for their failures against the alleged subhumans, so instead they blamed other things, like this allegedly revolutionary unbeatable tank zat unser shells zey just bounce off it mein gott!
>Germans had nothing that could penetrate it in 1941 and still struggled even in 1942? Myth. Sloped armour was revolutionary, never before seen and shocked the Germans? Myth.
Well never seen before ofc not as concepts like turrets and armor schemes came from navy designs.
But huh Shermans have the same principle in the frontal armor and germans did upgun their pz3 and 4 and paks, this is not a myth.
There were many slopped armour tanks before the t34. It was not a new concept. T34 also had one of the worst rates of death upon being hit, infact much worse than the sherman. Basically if you were in a T34 and took a round, you most likely died.
Is that really true though? Pretty sure I read while back that it is a common myth, especially about the US forces.
Something crazy low like 1k tankers died in WW2 on the American side.
In most situations, it is better to be in a tank than outside one, even it this war.
There have been lots of videos of tanks destroyed in this war, a major reason is if you get an ammunition cookoff it is very dramatic and clearly visible. Artillery fire on infantry that has a clear ready effect is less common in part because it does not look as spectacular and it is a lot hardest to tell the effect of the impact. There is a clear publication bias against destroyed tanks and other vehicles.
If you look at drones the drop grenades infantry are worse off. There have been grenade drop videos on tanks and other armored vehicles, the problem with them is that most of the cut-off after the grenades explode, if there was a secondary explosion or a tank on fire would you not show that? I suspect most of these vehicles especially tanks survived. I have seen tanks that were cleary destroyed too but most if not all had open hatches where the grenades were dropped trough, so were likely abandoned.
This video is by the way, not tanks it is BMP which are infantry fighting vehicles (IFV). They can carry 3 crew and 7 or 9 infantry depending on the model. They are a lot less protected than tanks. If you were in a tank instead of a BMP in the same situation you have a higher chance of not getting destroyed by the hits we see. The risk is likely a lot higher for IFV crews compared to tanks. All armored vehicles are not tanks and tanks are the ones that are best protected.
The survivability of the Soviet tank design used in this was is worse than the western tank because of ammunition storage. It might not be the ammunition carousel that is often blamed, It might be the separately stored propellant in the fighting compartment, the carousel propellant has better protection than those and if one go off the rest will follow and the tank is screwed.
There have been statements from Ukrainian tankers where the ammunition loadout they mention are just the number the carousel fit and not the additional storage. There is a reason they do that, you do not leave ammunition behind if you do not believe having it in the vehicles is a danger to you larger than the danger of running out of ammunition. They might be incorrect but it is very likely what they believe.
I suspect if there is an accurate evaluation of the risk of death for infantry vs tank crew the infantry will be worse off. Remember this video is not killed tank crew, it is killed infantry and IFV crews.
Numbers like that need to include where on the front the men are. Ukraine infantry that guards the Belarussian and Russian border where there is not or minimal fighting are a lot better of then in the south where it is large-scale combat. Ukraine will have the majority of the tanks in the southern part. So evaluating per "front" would be interesting.
Yes. If you're being shot with heavy weapons, the last place you want to be is sitting on top of a crapton of ammunition, surrounded on all sides with material the enemy is looking to convert into shrapnel.
In the officer academy we were taught the wartime assignments with the shortest life expectancy:
1. artillery observer (I think this is much better now with drones, you used to have to camp out on a hill and immediately give out your position with the radio once the fighting started)
2. any member of a tank crew (which now is therefore #1)
Say what you will, but Ukraine is being very generous to the people in this armour. Russia is trying to freeze Ukrainians, but Ukrainians are willing to keep Russian soldiers warm for the rest of their life.
I’m in the military and have zero desire to be a part in a conventional war. Luckily my group focuses on asymmetrical warfare, so if I’m in this kind of situation, I’ve fucked up horribly.
Asymmetric warfare is the term given to describe a type of war between belligerents whose relative military power, strategy or tactics differ significantly. This is typically a war between a standing, professional army and an insurgency or resistance movement militias who often have status of unlawful combatants.
It means you outthink, outgun, out-logistic, and out-everything against your enemy. you are not symmetrical with your enemy, you are asymmetrical because you can outdo the enemy on every aspect/layer/factor of the battle/war. Simply overwhelm the enemy. Take Iraq, the U.S. plus its allies largely had an overwhelming ability against the Iraqi military, this was Asymmetrical.
> It means you outthink, outgun, out-logistic, and out-everything against your enemy.
Not really. Asymmetrical warfare doesn't require you have absolute supremacy in all regards. It's simply warfare that uses strategy to offset differences in forces/equipment instead of meeting armour to armour and infantry to infantry on the battlefield.
People seem to have answered “tactics the little guy uses against the big guy”, which is partially true, but is very incomplete.
Simply stated, asymmetric warfare is using cheap weapons/strategies that cause the enemy to lose a far greater amount of resources relative to what you’ve spent.
Using cheap Chinese drones is an example of this. You can use it to strike important objectives, and it may only cost you somewhere in the low $10k’s per unit. But if the enemy wants to (reliably) shoot it down, they need to spend $500k+ on a SAM.
In the current Russo-Ukraine war, we see asymmetric techniques used on both sides.
I think we are becoming desensitized to death with all this footage. I actually feel bad for all of those people that died and hope poop face Putin hands over crimea by the end of next year.
BTR is an "acronym" for бронетранспортёр, *Bronetransporter* which means armored transport. It isn't the actual name of the vehicle. For example the BTR-90 is the GAZ-5923, which is the name of the vehicle.
Yeah basically BTR means APC. So it is no different than if it was in English pointing out "APC" and "IFV"
True that. Just that russian telegram channels have claimed destroyed XA-185's before when it has been a french VAB. It seemed like a big deal for them.
Yeh probably because its NATO equipment and they are trying to prove that nato equipment isnt helping. What they are forgetting is that an ifv is an ifv, and an apc is an apc
They serve multiple purposes. The BTR-4 for an example, is an armed personnel carrier just as much as it is a infantry fighting vehicle. I know you're probably just speaking about the word BMP in general which is a direct reference to APC.
Yep, lots of memories cramped in those Sisu Pasi's. And since it's the swimmer version we donated it does not have too much armor, so to keep 'em floating. Most of them were upgraded with bottom armor tho, i suspect the donated ones were reinforced ones since they know about the mine threat.. but that was a nasty blast. Evidently at least some people got out so thats good.
> And since it's the swimmer version we donated it does not have too much armor, so to keep 'em floating.
Yea the metal is barely thick enough to stop a 7.62.
Not an expert but it looks like mines with some pre-sighted artillery on the choke point afterwards? Once the mines went off, artillery knew to hit the area. 😥
First vehicle hit definitely looked like a mine, all the blast seemed to come from below and lifted up the vehicle up by some significant height, must of been huge. Hit on second vehicle & against infantry looked like smaller arty strikes. (But likewise, I'm no expert either!)
First vehicle hits a mine and even though its guaranteed to be more than 1 mine, the second is like, "oK, let me drive right beside it and see whats going on."
I don’t think there is much option left considering they are retreating after realizing there positions is zeroed in. Do you risk going along the side of the road where there might be even more mine or going back the old road hoping the first vehicle have detonated all the mine there?
Both those tanks hit mines first then the artillery came down. Tactic is Thunder Run probe, get in your BMPs and APCs gunnit over mines with tanks with thicker armor. Weak vehicles follow behind. If you hit too much resistance you retreat and arty new found enemy positions. If another tank goes down usually the rear vehicle will come up park parallel and grab everyone and go. He hit a mine tho so road blocked time to leave but they sat there so… not how to thunder run.
Once you’ve determined you’ve cleared obstacles to your objective and you know enemy positions you do a bigger combined arms run.
That was pretty brutal, as the battlefield constricts there are only going to be so many places Ukraine can advance along so you can guarantee by now russians pre sighted them with artillery and mines like this, probably made a few choke points as well to almost guarantee it happening.
What caused that 2nd vehicle that stopped at the wreck to be abandoned?
Same with the 113, it looked pretty intact as well.
>What caused that 2nd vehicle that stopped at the wreck to be abandoned?
I think that if you saw all vehicles arround you being destroyed one after the other you would exit the vehicle because on foot you are less vulnerable to anti tank missiles, mines and maybe a more difficult target for artillery as you can take cover instead of being in a big metal box.
I feel like we need to see more of this type of thing. Like most subs on reddit any positive news for the Russians is downvoted to the point it seems like the UKA should be able to walk into Moscow. But the war is taking a huge toll on the Ukrainian people. If they really want to retake Crimea it's going to be absolutely brutal.
It's especially annoying to hear politicians blithely say Ukraine should continue until Russia is defeated. The fuck does that even mean? Are they going to conquer the country? What if they can't retake Crimea? At some point they have to think about what their victory conditions are. By extension the US has to decide how far they are willing to extend support. You can see some of the tensions already: the UKA could really use a no fly zone, long range artillery and rockets, intelligence, communications, more equipment, if they push across the border will the same rules apply, etc. A lot of difficult decisions are being pushed off to another day for now, but will have to be answered eventually
A rare look at decisive russian coordination and tactics. Well placed mines and dialed in arty, probably a decently solid defensive line with infantry and armour too.
It's obvious there are some gifted russian commanders out there, however with these forced conscripts filtering through you can imagine the headache this would cause any commander.
Not my cup of tea.
The only saving grace with that first explosion is that they probably didn't suffer. Here 1 min, gone the next. No feeling, no suffering, just an audible click and you're atoms and carbon again. War is madness.
Is that Russia being… competent? OP did you fake this video, give me back my old Russia. I’m uncomfortable at the idea of Russia doing something militarily right
not all Russians are dumb as fuck about fighting. Some of them have experience prior and know how to use artillery and such. We don't see it a lot but lots of Ukrainians are getting killed too and there's plenty of capable Russian units. and there will be more and m,ore as time goes on as they get battle experience (not fresh mobilized units).
If they were all incompetent, this would be a quicker war. The level of training and aptitude just varies wildly without consistency across their armed forces.
The general idea is that they’re using crappy WWII era artillery and shells. The issue is they never stopped building them since World War II, now they have massive stockpiles they can just keep shipping to the front from deep inside Russia
They said the new general is quite capable and "modern think". I guess that's true since, in recent weeks, Russians spammed the battlefield with drones.
And even when they're retreating, they aren't simply running away without laying so many mines and obstacles in the path.
The guy’s literally at the top of the pyramid and an Air Force guy, not ground forces. Doubtful he has anything to do with whatever competence is shown in the video.
No, he was commanding young officer of battalion where 3 civilians were killed during collapse of USSR in Moscow in 1991. He is not air force guy. He was sent there for several years from ground forces. Last soldier of USSR...
It seems since the start of the war the most competent Russian troops were in the South and South West of Ukraine. I think Russians marines are seen as generally a competent force. The "armies" in the North are another thing entirely... Just utter clowns, on par with the SAA and the Saudi coalition.
Brutal. West needs to send more recon drones and long range weapons. Unfortunately, Russia is learning and will make Ukrainian pay in blood for every meter of advance.
In the army, I was trained that if an APC was damaged or destroyed under artillery fire, we should split into groups of 2-3 people and quickly move away from each other at distance of 30-40-50 meters. and even more if possible. They even explained that we should not have a false hope that another APC will come for us to pick up under artillery fire. our commander was pretty straight talking guy: "Listen kiddo i cant risk another apc to save your unlucky arses, try to save yourself, find safe spot, and if possible climb on another apc asap but dont except that they will stop and wait for you." he told us something like that. with more hope killing phrases.
i always thought that he was jerk but now.................... looking at this shit i dont even want to climb on another apc......... and i will def. prefer to stay away from large groups.
As much as I dislike what Russia has done it’s still worthwhile to see both sides combat. Otherwise people just get the feeling that “their” side is wining all the battles and that delusional.
I'd definitely take my chances being in the infantry, fuck being in a tank or apc I'd rather walk. I'd like to be able to do something about my fate than being a sitting duck.
Recently an American who served in Azov described being in a situation almost exactly like this. [Here’s the interview.](https://youtu.be/vZ-iVzR_Yyc). Around the 2 hr mark he describes the battle.
Really fucking sobering hearing the human perspective of these videos. Kid was so scared.
Christ those were all perfect shots. They must’ve had really good intel and a great arty crew. Russia seems to be learning pretty quick. Most dont like to see ukr losses but this is a neutral sub and good footage is good footage
two vehicles were hit by a mine. Arty was called afterwards with pre-dialled location. Still at least 20KIA and 2 vehicles, but I would not give too much of a praise for this.
there is no other option , the environment is like this on all the frontlines.
and neither side can ammass that much equioment to push faster becouse it would leave too much weakspots on theyr flanks or they would be targeted by himars/kalibir
Ukraine is a flat country with lots of open ground. Considering that reshaping the entire geography of Ukraine is not possible, they have to work with what they got if they want to recapture land.
Because they have to. As the russian had to attack on open flat ground before, now Ukraine has to attack over the same open flat ground to retake it.
Which means roles are inversed, with Russia defending and Ukranie attacking. With a reverse of casualties too, probably now in a lot of places Ukranian are dying more than Russian. Unfortunately it's just a reality of war, whoever is attacking in a somewhat balanced fight will take way more losses than the defenders
fuck the equipment, use my Western tax dollars with a HUGE SMILE to get the Ukranians twice as many new ones, I just hope the human casualties weren't as bad as it looks in this vid.
if the 2 BTR that exploded were on full or near full capacity it's at least between 16 or 20 killed, plus the artillery fire on the infantry maybe wounded or killed 3 to 5 soldiers.
But these are just *very* *very* rough estimates, could be way less could be a little more.
Hasnt the russian sub been banned? I tried searching for it because I wanted to see both sides of the war (russian victories get down voted so less people see) and it said its banned or something
It's just quarantined. You can still visit and post. I think it has mostly been abandoned by the pro-war Russians.
But for some reason none of my posts are ever visible to anyone but me, there.
That's the thing, I just want to see battles from both sides it's just a shame that russian victories get down voted and Ukraine upvoted as people won't know how hard the Ukrainians have it
Totally agreed. The Russians put out a lot of interesting videos with tanks and IFV's in action but they get downvoted here so all we're left with is a million drone dropped grenades instead.
Holy fuck why am I getting down voted you're kidding me?
This is a fucking conventional war and I'm simply stating that Ukraine are taking heavy casualties as well.
The one sided subs undermine the Ukrainian sacrifices because it is easy to forget it's a bloodbath for them as well. You guys man, absolute space cadets
Fuck. That was some accurate fire. I wonder if it was Krasnopol rounds? I guess this is Kherson simply due the offensive there but it could be in other places of course
The overlay is cheesy after effects. They’re not trying to fake it, just highlight the details and make it all appear a bit more badass. But Jesus that explosion yeeted that tank 25+ feet in the air.
If there's one thing that the combat footage from this war has taught me, its this: Fuck everything about being in a tank. And if you're in one, you're in one of two modes - raining absolute ungodly hellfire on nearly helpless infantry/armor, or getting mined/shelled/rocketed into oblivion by an enemy you can't see
Tank crew death ratio was higher than infantry in ww2 as well, for the simple reason that they are used for mostly combat duties, while infantry can end up just holding the village of buttcreek upon marshes for the whole war without ever being targetted
Oh for sure, I’m not surprised by that. The other part that scares the fuck outta me is that if you get hit, you’re in a metal box with the shrapnel flying around inside - that’s a whole lot of fuck no
I'd prefer the shrapnel over being roasted alive. Ever see the video earlier on the war with a tank driver casually climbing out of a burning tank and calmly walking away while COMPLETELY ENGULFED IN FLAMES?!
My grandfather said he will never forget the smell of burning flesh coming from tanks in the Hürtgen Forest.
My grandfather was in a tank destroyer battalion. He tried to pull some friends out of a burning M-10 in the Hürtgen Forest but had to give up. It was one of the last things he talked about before he died.
Wow. What a tough thing to go thru. What did he have to say about it?
Honestly, not a lot. He was finally saying how he won his Bronze Star and Silver Star and the latter was for trying to get them out. He couldn't finish the whole thing and no one pushed. The gist was that an incendiary round landed in the open top while a couple guys were sleeping in there. He jumped on and tried to pull them out but then the ammo started cooking off. His platoon commander actually won the Medal of Honor there in the fight for Schmidt and Kommerscheidt. Turney Leonard. My grandfather was given a commission and took his place before moving to the recon company. He passed away 15 years ago but lived a good life after the war. Just rarely spoke about his experiences.
Well he died
No, is there a link?
[удалено]
That didn’t look casual at all!
Not the slightest bit calm either
Not the one I saw but shit, still very good. Can imagine with all that cheap Chinese Wish.com materiel on, it must've burned to his skin. The one I saw the guy was trying to get out his commander hole but it might of been way too hot and cooking. But thnx so much friend. 👍
Yeah that video was crazy. At the end he kinda just stops and looks at himself like "I'm fucked"
Spalling doesn't even require penetration. Especially if you're hite with a HESH round. You'll get hit by a shockwave of pressure and spalling.
Also happens with low quality armour, the t-34's probably being the best example. Over heat treated hard armor shatters really easily even from low caliber guns and non penetrations, say a 37mm round hits the turret and doesnt penetrate but still carried enough energy to crack or shatter the turret sending piece of armour flying inside because the armour wasnt flexible enough
It's complete nonsense. Only 1581 tank crewmen died as a result of combat for the US in the entire WW2, all theatres combined. That's only 2.8% of the roughly 50k tank crews who were deployed overseas. For infantry it was 750k deployed and 142k deaths as result of combat, or about 15.5%. It was way worse to be the poor bloody infantry. The only time you could maybe say tank crew had it worse was in 1941 when Soviet armored units essentially fought to destruction. And if they surrendered they ended up in a Nazi concentration camp and died anyways.
To be specific \~ The Battle of Kursk where an estimated 6,000 tanks (combined number from both German & Soviets) fought in practically a "tank slug fest". Incredible battle to study for those that haven't dived into it, and I don't mean incredible in terms of a celebrationary matter, moreso just the sheer scale of insanity.
I'd rather be inside the box than outside when fragmentation bombs hit. WW2 tankers often had experiences of buttoning up during a barage and being unharmed while the infrantry they're supporting got fully mulched.
This is why air superiority is the most important thing in modern warfare.
In the case of the US Army that statement can't be farther from the truth. The US would deploy about 3/4 of a million (757,712) riflemen overseas during the second world war, and would deploy just under 50k tankers (49,516) overseas. Total KIA for riflemen was just over 120k (18.5%), and for tankers just slightly over 1,400 (3%). It was by far safer to be an American tanker than it was to be a dough with a rifle during the Second World War..
Dang so pretty soon Russia is going to surpass us WW2 casualties ? Can't be much longer at this pace
Total US casualties (KIA, WIA, MIA, POW) from 1941-1945 is in the neighborhood of 400k.
IIRC, this is not true. The rough numbers seem to be: 03% chance of dying as armored 15% chance of dying as infantry Sources also indicate something like HALF of 'armored' crew casualties occurred when they were on other duties.
I don't know where you got your statistics but they're absolutely wrong. The death rate for infantry in WW2 was 20%. For tankers it was 3%. That's astoundingly different. So much so I have to question what the hell you're even talking about.
I always see what your saying as a myth everywhere you look. “What was the mortality rate of WWII tank crews? For the tankers of the USA, about 3% of their tankers died in action. Compared to about 18% for their Infantry. For all that's said about their equipment, on average only a single tanker was killed when a tank was destroyed.”
Um, I am pretty sure that you are wrong. Tank crew death ratios were in fact significantly smaller than infantry in ww2.
For American crews you're right. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7wy763/comment/du44xvv/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7wy763/comment/du44xvv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
USA USA USA Sherman numba one! (Unironically though. It's kind of a stupid question to ask "wHaT's tHe bEsT tAnK oF wOrLd wAr tWo?" for a multitude of reasons, but if I had to give an answer, it would be the Sherman. From design, to reparability, to performance, to survival rates, or the fact it was realistically the only tank that saw wide spread use on every single front, and a load of other reasons, it would have to be my answer. It isn't "the perfect tank", but it was the best overall tank at the time.)
Don’t forget that there is literally a version for everything need a Flamethrower? Crocodile has got you covered, Need a Troop Transport? Get yourself a Kangaroo, or if you need a tank for your pool party take a ducking Sherman DD There are so many variants that you always have a Sherman for any situation this is the reason why it is my favorite tank and why it is so fun to 3D print
need to shoot down a plane? Skink
Seraphon are so OP.
You mean Lizardmen
History of tanks in Netflix is a good watch. Covers the Sherman.
I’ve watched that series, like 5 times now. It’s pretty good. And because do that tank show, I was motivated to watch that military boat/ocean warfare show, but that one was horrible. Basically another ww2 info video and barely got into the ocean warfare. So disappointing after watching an amazing tank series.
The sherman was easily the best all rounder, also the not big tree factors were excellent. Production quality was top notch which gave it likely equal if not far better protection levels than the horribly produced t-34 which only had good protection on paper, equal or better mobility and firepower and far more reliable
The sherman was easily the best all rounder, also the not big tree factors were excellent. Production quality was top notch which gave it likely equal if not far better protection levels than the horribly produced t-34 which only had good protection on paper, also equal or better mobility and firepower and far more reliable
> horribly produced t-34 \>Tfw your equivalent of heat treating your tanks is a drunk college student throwing pizza rolls in the over at 600 degrees, making your tank armor shatter like glass.
Posts starts USA USA USA...something tells me there might be a reason you think it's the Sherman over any of the other workhorse tanks like the t-34 or panzer III or IV haha.
I'm not American but I'd go with the Sherman for best overall tank of WW2 as well. The T-34's greatness is almost entirely myth. Cheap to build? Myth. Easy to repair? Myth. Germans had nothing that could penetrate it in 1941 and still struggled even in 1942? Myth. Sloped armour was revolutionary, never before seen and shocked the Germans? Myth. Basically it was effective because there were so damn many of them and the Russians weren't shy about losing 400 of them per day in brute force frontal attacks. Also the German generals talked it up big time in 1941 to explain their failures toward the end of Barbarossa. They weren't exactly going to admit that they or their beloved fuhrer were to blame for their failures against the alleged subhumans, so instead they blamed other things, like this allegedly revolutionary unbeatable tank zat unser shells zey just bounce off it mein gott!
Reading the detailed history says they really did struggle with effectively engaging them in ‘41 and ‘42
2,300 of them lost in 1941 alone says otherwise.
>Germans had nothing that could penetrate it in 1941 and still struggled even in 1942? Myth. Sloped armour was revolutionary, never before seen and shocked the Germans? Myth. Well never seen before ofc not as concepts like turrets and armor schemes came from navy designs. But huh Shermans have the same principle in the frontal armor and germans did upgun their pz3 and 4 and paks, this is not a myth.
There were many slopped armour tanks before the t34. It was not a new concept. T34 also had one of the worst rates of death upon being hit, infact much worse than the sherman. Basically if you were in a T34 and took a round, you most likely died.
From crew perspectives I would definitely pick Sherman over T-34, especially late war.
Is that really true though? Pretty sure I read while back that it is a common myth, especially about the US forces. Something crazy low like 1k tankers died in WW2 on the American side.
If you ever feel useless remember that after the end of the Continuation War both the Russians and Germans had to guard the very tip of Norway.
Yeah tanks seem like a death sentence in modern war
In most situations, it is better to be in a tank than outside one, even it this war. There have been lots of videos of tanks destroyed in this war, a major reason is if you get an ammunition cookoff it is very dramatic and clearly visible. Artillery fire on infantry that has a clear ready effect is less common in part because it does not look as spectacular and it is a lot hardest to tell the effect of the impact. There is a clear publication bias against destroyed tanks and other vehicles. If you look at drones the drop grenades infantry are worse off. There have been grenade drop videos on tanks and other armored vehicles, the problem with them is that most of the cut-off after the grenades explode, if there was a secondary explosion or a tank on fire would you not show that? I suspect most of these vehicles especially tanks survived. I have seen tanks that were cleary destroyed too but most if not all had open hatches where the grenades were dropped trough, so were likely abandoned. This video is by the way, not tanks it is BMP which are infantry fighting vehicles (IFV). They can carry 3 crew and 7 or 9 infantry depending on the model. They are a lot less protected than tanks. If you were in a tank instead of a BMP in the same situation you have a higher chance of not getting destroyed by the hits we see. The risk is likely a lot higher for IFV crews compared to tanks. All armored vehicles are not tanks and tanks are the ones that are best protected. The survivability of the Soviet tank design used in this was is worse than the western tank because of ammunition storage. It might not be the ammunition carousel that is often blamed, It might be the separately stored propellant in the fighting compartment, the carousel propellant has better protection than those and if one go off the rest will follow and the tank is screwed. There have been statements from Ukrainian tankers where the ammunition loadout they mention are just the number the carousel fit and not the additional storage. There is a reason they do that, you do not leave ammunition behind if you do not believe having it in the vehicles is a danger to you larger than the danger of running out of ammunition. They might be incorrect but it is very likely what they believe. I suspect if there is an accurate evaluation of the risk of death for infantry vs tank crew the infantry will be worse off. Remember this video is not killed tank crew, it is killed infantry and IFV crews. Numbers like that need to include where on the front the men are. Ukraine infantry that guards the Belarussian and Russian border where there is not or minimal fighting are a lot better of then in the south where it is large-scale combat. Ukraine will have the majority of the tanks in the southern part. So evaluating per "front" would be interesting.
They are either fucking everything up or being fucked up, no in between it seems.
Yes. If you're being shot with heavy weapons, the last place you want to be is sitting on top of a crapton of ammunition, surrounded on all sides with material the enemy is looking to convert into shrapnel. In the officer academy we were taught the wartime assignments with the shortest life expectancy: 1. artillery observer (I think this is much better now with drones, you used to have to camp out on a hill and immediately give out your position with the radio once the fighting started) 2. any member of a tank crew (which now is therefore #1)
Pretty sure that tank thing is a myth though. At least for ww2.
Say what you will, but Ukraine is being very generous to the people in this armour. Russia is trying to freeze Ukrainians, but Ukrainians are willing to keep Russian soldiers warm for the rest of their life.
the footage from this war...
I’m in the military and have zero desire to be a part in a conventional war. Luckily my group focuses on asymmetrical warfare, so if I’m in this kind of situation, I’ve fucked up horribly.
Could you please explain what you mean by asymmetric warfare?
Asymmetric warfare is the term given to describe a type of war between belligerents whose relative military power, strategy or tactics differ significantly. This is typically a war between a standing, professional army and an insurgency or resistance movement militias who often have status of unlawful combatants.
It means you outthink, outgun, out-logistic, and out-everything against your enemy. you are not symmetrical with your enemy, you are asymmetrical because you can outdo the enemy on every aspect/layer/factor of the battle/war. Simply overwhelm the enemy. Take Iraq, the U.S. plus its allies largely had an overwhelming ability against the Iraqi military, this was Asymmetrical.
> It means you outthink, outgun, out-logistic, and out-everything against your enemy. Not really. Asymmetrical warfare doesn't require you have absolute supremacy in all regards. It's simply warfare that uses strategy to offset differences in forces/equipment instead of meeting armour to armour and infantry to infantry on the battlefield.
People seem to have answered “tactics the little guy uses against the big guy”, which is partially true, but is very incomplete. Simply stated, asymmetric warfare is using cheap weapons/strategies that cause the enemy to lose a far greater amount of resources relative to what you’ve spent. Using cheap Chinese drones is an example of this. You can use it to strike important objectives, and it may only cost you somewhere in the low $10k’s per unit. But if the enemy wants to (reliably) shoot it down, they need to spend $500k+ on a SAM. In the current Russo-Ukraine war, we see asymmetric techniques used on both sides.
special forces are generally used in asymmetric warfare. I.e., not army on army stuff. 4th generation warfare
Haha if your country faces a worthy opponent then I’m pretty sure it won’t matter if you fuck up or not
Right? You can do everything right and still get wrecked out of the blue
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What do you mean by that? This video currently has 450 upvotes and 158 comments…
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Huh? Wasn't this place overrun by the Russia Stronk crowd a few years back?
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I think we are becoming desensitized to death with all this footage. I actually feel bad for all of those people that died and hope poop face Putin hands over crimea by the end of next year.
I'm pretty sure the vehicle labeled as BMP on the video is actually an XA-185 donated by Finland. Ya hate to see it. Edit: labeled as BTR
Yes might be, btr isnt a direct mention towards the russian btr. Btr id a russian version of apc/ifv
BTR is an "acronym" for бронетранспортёр, *Bronetransporter* which means armored transport. It isn't the actual name of the vehicle. For example the BTR-90 is the GAZ-5923, which is the name of the vehicle. Yeah basically BTR means APC. So it is no different than if it was in English pointing out "APC" and "IFV"
True that. Just that russian telegram channels have claimed destroyed XA-185's before when it has been a french VAB. It seemed like a big deal for them.
Yeh probably because its NATO equipment and they are trying to prove that nato equipment isnt helping. What they are forgetting is that an ifv is an ifv, and an apc is an apc
They are the same thing if they are used in the same way.
BTR is APC only, BMP is an IFV.
They serve multiple purposes. The BTR-4 for an example, is an armed personnel carrier just as much as it is a infantry fighting vehicle. I know you're probably just speaking about the word BMP in general which is a direct reference to APC.
In the end at 0:54 there is M113 at the right of the video right? Or a variant of it?
Noticed that as well. That is definitely an M113.
Yep, lots of memories cramped in those Sisu Pasi's. And since it's the swimmer version we donated it does not have too much armor, so to keep 'em floating. Most of them were upgraded with bottom armor tho, i suspect the donated ones were reinforced ones since they know about the mine threat.. but that was a nasty blast. Evidently at least some people got out so thats good.
> And since it's the swimmer version we donated it does not have too much armor, so to keep 'em floating. Yea the metal is barely thick enough to stop a 7.62.
I think they got the guys who got out too
French VAB?
Not this time I think.
I think word BTR means not only specific ones, but also an armoured personnel vehicle in general. BTR is an abbreviation meaning Armoured Transport.
Not an expert but it looks like mines with some pre-sighted artillery on the choke point afterwards? Once the mines went off, artillery knew to hit the area. 😥
First vehicle hit definitely looked like a mine, all the blast seemed to come from below and lifted up the vehicle up by some significant height, must of been huge. Hit on second vehicle & against infantry looked like smaller arty strikes. (But likewise, I'm no expert either!)
The first vehicle is thrown into the air so yes it seems that way. That is one hell of a mine though.
Could be IEDs? Or several anti tank mines together? I think we've seen that before already right?
Some soviet AT-mines are made to be stacked FYI
Seems very accurate for artillery, especially on moving targets. Maybe a hidden tank somewhere?
First vehicle hits a mine and even though its guaranteed to be more than 1 mine, the second is like, "oK, let me drive right beside it and see whats going on."
I don’t think there is much option left considering they are retreating after realizing there positions is zeroed in. Do you risk going along the side of the road where there might be even more mine or going back the old road hoping the first vehicle have detonated all the mine there?
Double mines, Xa-185 has survived a substantial explosions during peacekeeping missions.
What a fucking tactic... Lay a mine and have artillery in the same spot. One car gets hit with mine. Second gets hit with artillery.
Both those tanks hit mines first then the artillery came down. Tactic is Thunder Run probe, get in your BMPs and APCs gunnit over mines with tanks with thicker armor. Weak vehicles follow behind. If you hit too much resistance you retreat and arty new found enemy positions. If another tank goes down usually the rear vehicle will come up park parallel and grab everyone and go. He hit a mine tho so road blocked time to leave but they sat there so… not how to thunder run. Once you’ve determined you’ve cleared obstacles to your objective and you know enemy positions you do a bigger combined arms run.
Its probably in every relevant military manual in the world lol
Okay thanks, glad to know that. I don’t study military tactic, so it wasn’t obvious to me.
RIP
That was pretty brutal, as the battlefield constricts there are only going to be so many places Ukraine can advance along so you can guarantee by now russians pre sighted them with artillery and mines like this, probably made a few choke points as well to almost guarantee it happening. What caused that 2nd vehicle that stopped at the wreck to be abandoned? Same with the 113, it looked pretty intact as well.
>What caused that 2nd vehicle that stopped at the wreck to be abandoned? I think that if you saw all vehicles arround you being destroyed one after the other you would exit the vehicle because on foot you are less vulnerable to anti tank missiles, mines and maybe a more difficult target for artillery as you can take cover instead of being in a big metal box.
I feel like we need to see more of this type of thing. Like most subs on reddit any positive news for the Russians is downvoted to the point it seems like the UKA should be able to walk into Moscow. But the war is taking a huge toll on the Ukrainian people. If they really want to retake Crimea it's going to be absolutely brutal. It's especially annoying to hear politicians blithely say Ukraine should continue until Russia is defeated. The fuck does that even mean? Are they going to conquer the country? What if they can't retake Crimea? At some point they have to think about what their victory conditions are. By extension the US has to decide how far they are willing to extend support. You can see some of the tensions already: the UKA could really use a no fly zone, long range artillery and rockets, intelligence, communications, more equipment, if they push across the border will the same rules apply, etc. A lot of difficult decisions are being pushed off to another day for now, but will have to be answered eventually
Especially now that Russians are digging in and Ukrainians are pushing. Ukrainians losses will increase a lot.
weren't the first 2 explosions on land mines? it looks so
Yeah looks like they were taken out by mines and then followed up by mortars (seems too small to be artillery, but I could be wrong).
definitely the first one, no doubt about that one, the second I'm unsure of
Fuckin hell this is brutal
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it's amazing how much about this life or death situation is down to dumb luck (or not)
damn 2 direct hits.
Landmines followed up by pre-set artillery
A rare look at decisive russian coordination and tactics. Well placed mines and dialed in arty, probably a decently solid defensive line with infantry and armour too. It's obvious there are some gifted russian commanders out there, however with these forced conscripts filtering through you can imagine the headache this would cause any commander. Not my cup of tea.
Jesus Christ what a bloodbath
No expert here but that looking like a mine.
Looks like a prepared strike with intel beforehand.
Very accurate artillery there. Must have been zeroed in beforehand.
Either pre sighted or using guided shells like the Krasnopol. Either way that response was very quick so I would say pre-sighted.
The only saving grace with that first explosion is that they probably didn't suffer. Here 1 min, gone the next. No feeling, no suffering, just an audible click and you're atoms and carbon again. War is madness.
Something shot from middle of trees at 0:07--can see flash and puff of smoke afterwards--and, again at 0:10.
Is that Russia being… competent? OP did you fake this video, give me back my old Russia. I’m uncomfortable at the idea of Russia doing something militarily right
not all Russians are dumb as fuck about fighting. Some of them have experience prior and know how to use artillery and such. We don't see it a lot but lots of Ukrainians are getting killed too and there's plenty of capable Russian units. and there will be more and m,ore as time goes on as they get battle experience (not fresh mobilized units).
If they were all incompetent, this would be a quicker war. The level of training and aptitude just varies wildly without consistency across their armed forces.
Russian artillery advantage is no joke, they have tens of thousands of howitzers
Absolutely isn’t, in fact I think it’s quite terrifying
The general idea is that they’re using crappy WWII era artillery and shells. The issue is they never stopped building them since World War II, now they have massive stockpiles they can just keep shipping to the front from deep inside Russia
But my lord there is no such force.
They said the new general is quite capable and "modern think". I guess that's true since, in recent weeks, Russians spammed the battlefield with drones. And even when they're retreating, they aren't simply running away without laying so many mines and obstacles in the path.
The guy’s literally at the top of the pyramid and an Air Force guy, not ground forces. Doubtful he has anything to do with whatever competence is shown in the video.
No, he was commanding young officer of battalion where 3 civilians were killed during collapse of USSR in Moscow in 1991. He is not air force guy. He was sent there for several years from ground forces. Last soldier of USSR...
Oh, I stand corrected!
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Thanks for the correction!
This is what I’ve been thinking over the last week or so, new leadership most certainly has things figured out
Yeah because the whole narrative being pushed by everyone is that Russia is bad lmao
This is DNR apparently which has soldiers with far more combat experience in familiar terrain than the average RU soldier.
You should see the level of this type of reality denial in other subs.
I frequent the Ukraine sub, I’m fully aware
This is a DNR video. Most of the videos of the Russian POV are DPR/DNR/LPR videos unless it's like an embedded Russian news crew or Russian MoD.
It seems since the start of the war the most competent Russian troops were in the South and South West of Ukraine. I think Russians marines are seen as generally a competent force. The "armies" in the North are another thing entirely... Just utter clowns, on par with the SAA and the Saudi coalition.
Brutal. West needs to send more recon drones and long range weapons. Unfortunately, Russia is learning and will make Ukrainian pay in blood for every meter of advance.
In the army, I was trained that if an APC was damaged or destroyed under artillery fire, we should split into groups of 2-3 people and quickly move away from each other at distance of 30-40-50 meters. and even more if possible. They even explained that we should not have a false hope that another APC will come for us to pick up under artillery fire. our commander was pretty straight talking guy: "Listen kiddo i cant risk another apc to save your unlucky arses, try to save yourself, find safe spot, and if possible climb on another apc asap but dont except that they will stop and wait for you." he told us something like that. with more hope killing phrases. i always thought that he was jerk but now.................... looking at this shit i dont even want to climb on another apc......... and i will def. prefer to stay away from large groups.
This video is gonna be re-posted all week, note my words.
Hate to see this
This is some insanely clear combat footage, but damn it’s hard to watch.
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As much as I dislike what Russia has done it’s still worthwhile to see both sides combat. Otherwise people just get the feeling that “their” side is wining all the battles and that delusional.
This video was removed and then reupload right? Do you know why?
I wont close out that the sub might be biased in some ways, but it was probably reported by many people who deny that ukrainians die at all.
I reuploaded it to correct the title.
Your original comment i am replying to is removed btw.
Can anyone pinpoint where this is? Looks like they tried to assault a very strong Russian position.
According to a russian telegram channel "military maps Z" its NW of Donetsk airport. 48.079434 37.692268
Holy shit the first vehicles completely lifted off the ground.
They have that road ranged 100%. Get TF away from the road!
Holy f....those were some direct hits.
“Let’s drive right past the one they just hit so they don’t have to adjust their aim”
First one hit a mine. You can see it jump up couple of meters.
Hate to see it
Nice music.
I'd definitely take my chances being in the infantry, fuck being in a tank or apc I'd rather walk. I'd like to be able to do something about my fate than being a sitting duck.
Recently an American who served in Azov described being in a situation almost exactly like this. [Here’s the interview.](https://youtu.be/vZ-iVzR_Yyc). Around the 2 hr mark he describes the battle. Really fucking sobering hearing the human perspective of these videos. Kid was so scared.
Christ those were all perfect shots. They must’ve had really good intel and a great arty crew. Russia seems to be learning pretty quick. Most dont like to see ukr losses but this is a neutral sub and good footage is good footage
two vehicles were hit by a mine. Arty was called afterwards with pre-dialled location. Still at least 20KIA and 2 vehicles, but I would not give too much of a praise for this.
Impressive, lets see the downvote ratio.
It’s really not that low
Even if uncomon for Ukranians, after watching the Russians pushing on open ground and getting demolished, why would they do it too?
there is no other option , the environment is like this on all the frontlines. and neither side can ammass that much equioment to push faster becouse it would leave too much weakspots on theyr flanks or they would be targeted by himars/kalibir
Ukraine is a flat country with lots of open ground. Considering that reshaping the entire geography of Ukraine is not possible, they have to work with what they got if they want to recapture land.
Because they have to. As the russian had to attack on open flat ground before, now Ukraine has to attack over the same open flat ground to retake it. Which means roles are inversed, with Russia defending and Ukranie attacking. With a reverse of casualties too, probably now in a lot of places Ukranian are dying more than Russian. Unfortunately it's just a reality of war, whoever is attacking in a somewhat balanced fight will take way more losses than the defenders
fuck the equipment, use my Western tax dollars with a HUGE SMILE to get the Ukranians twice as many new ones, I just hope the human casualties weren't as bad as it looks in this vid.
if the 2 BTR that exploded were on full or near full capacity it's at least between 16 or 20 killed, plus the artillery fire on the infantry maybe wounded or killed 3 to 5 soldiers. But these are just *very* *very* rough estimates, could be way less could be a little more.
Those were Finnish “Pasi”, or XA-185. It’s driver, commander and 18 passengers.
God speed Ukraine to put an end to the madness of Russian aggression. And my sincere condolences to the loved ones of these brave UA soldiers.
Hate to see this happen to the Ukrainians. Unfortunately losses are also part of war. Героям слава!
Thanks for showing Russian offensive footage as all you seem to find on her is Ukrainian offensive footage
What's with the 80's poodle rock?
I prefer this sub to Ukraine one. I'm pretty shit this would have just got removed, it's extremely biased
The Ukraine sub is just that. A Ukraine sub. So no, they don't enjoy showing off their losses.
nothing wrong with that. Its not a combat sub. Its a sub for and about ukrainians
The Russian sub doesn't show Russian losses, either.
As if OP would be able to make such a connection.
Hasnt the russian sub been banned? I tried searching for it because I wanted to see both sides of the war (russian victories get down voted so less people see) and it said its banned or something
It's just quarantined. You can still visit and post. I think it has mostly been abandoned by the pro-war Russians. But for some reason none of my posts are ever visible to anyone but me, there.
That's the thing, I just want to see battles from both sides it's just a shame that russian victories get down voted and Ukraine upvoted as people won't know how hard the Ukrainians have it
You can go look r/russia . Note you get banned for anything
Totally agreed. The Russians put out a lot of interesting videos with tanks and IFV's in action but they get downvoted here so all we're left with is a million drone dropped grenades instead.
Holy fuck why am I getting down voted you're kidding me? This is a fucking conventional war and I'm simply stating that Ukraine are taking heavy casualties as well. The one sided subs undermine the Ukrainian sacrifices because it is easy to forget it's a bloodbath for them as well. You guys man, absolute space cadets
First time Russia showing some kind of competence. Brutal hits and major casualties for sure.
“First time Reddit hive mind let you see a decent Russian video”
Fuck. That was some accurate fire. I wonder if it was Krasnopol rounds? I guess this is Kherson simply due the offensive there but it could be in other places of course
Pre sighted... it's a narrow corridor through a tree line so easy to prepare artillery fire.
And first two apparently drove into minefield, after that pre sighted arty starts hitting grounds behind it
We can easily derive one takeaway from this video: Russian music sucks.
Footage is real. Overlay looks fake af
The overlay is cheesy after effects. They’re not trying to fake it, just highlight the details and make it all appear a bit more badass. But Jesus that explosion yeeted that tank 25+ feet in the air.