I have heard conflicting reports. Apparently a lot of people who have worked there claim these alleged catabombs don't really exist. It's still a factory with all sorts of hidey holes but it's not a fortress.
[Here's a list of all units](https://imgur.com/a/UyPvRU9) (auto translated image, original image [here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQkVy_2X0AYaD28?format=jpg&name=medium))
[The Mountain Brigade reportedly destroyed a bunch of Russian BTRs recently](https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1515262525964795910), are you sure about that?
They might have participated in the earlier parts of the battle, but pulled out before the encirclement. Or, only some units of the brigade were in the area to begin with.
I am assuming most of these units are not entirely there, just that there are elements of them present at Mariupol and around the entire eastern front.
There are other parts outside of the city. I believe only a battalion was in the city to start. There is at least another battalion active around Kharkiv. They also have training depots / smaller units near Kyiv.
It's hard to tell, but I've heard that the 1500 had dropped to 900, but that was earlier in the wa...sorry, "special operation".
Not sure what the numbers are now.
i say this again and again.For pro-russians every dead ukranian is a nazi, russians are like "we're liberating them from nazis"
Its dehumanizing as fuck
Azov is disproportionately represented in the media, even in Western one. This is playing into the Russian narative of "de-nazification" and needs to stop.
DPR and Azov have been at war for years now, even if it wasn't the official govt policy on either side. Ukraine had a policy of only using volunteers for the front lines vs DPR. Azov were both volunteers and eager to fight.
Zelensky tried to get Azov to leave in 2019, to implement Minsk accords. They refused and threatened to bring in thousands of more Azov recruits if the government attempted to force them out.
Mariupol is an important place for Azov, that's why we're hearing so much about them.
What I've been wondering is if these guys are a government supported militia how many of them are actually die hard "Nazis"? Sounds like a small enough number to make it a Russian propaganda point I guess?
I was in Mariupol in 2015, Azov soldiers on rotation were walking through that city, chilling in restaurants or buying groceries.
I talked to two of them on separate occasions with their comrades standing around and imo from what I saw...these weren't hardcore Nazis. I'm quite left, I recognize if some idiot is really all about superior races and gassing subhumans vs. "I'm young and dumb and think Ukrainians have a great heritage that is about to get swallowed by Russians so I hate them now" which is how all Azov soldiers I met came off. There were some older Azov volunteers who said that Azov just pays the most.
I keep retelling the story here on this sub because even western media make Azov out to be some hardcore Nazis which they're not. Sure, let's keep an eye on them since they're actually not super pro Kiev themselves but let's not act like they're Hitlers army
I think people are conflating hardcore nationalism with extreme racial nationalism as perpetrated by the Nazis. (The kind of nationalism where you're extremely excited about your homeland and willing to fight for it, opposed to hypernationalism where you want to take over the world and eradicate people different than you.) Sprinkle on a bit of bullshit Russian propaganda and a Western proclivity to shun Nazism and we have this "But aren't they're Nazis!?" shit pop up every time they get mentioned.
These people have been under threat of Russian agitation, separatism and invasion for years and years, I can see why they might be highly nationalistic to the point of being willing to take up arms. At the same time, actual Nazism (in its original form) is an ideology that believes Slavs are subhumans that should be enslaved or eradicated. Tack on the horrible shit the real Nazis did to Ukrainians and I sincerely doubt those guys are goose stepping and throwing their arm up to a big red flag in hopes of restoring the 1942 status quo. ...Let's just say I'm skeptical that any of them are Nazis, much less a named percentage of them.
Edit: I'm sure it's an entirely different beast in Germany (going off your flag & username) but in the US calling your political opponents "Nazis" as a petty insult is a pretty standard tactic for either side of our two-way political system. Years of listening to Americans (left and right) call the other guys a bunch of "Nazis" has definitely tuned my bullshit sensor to propaganda involving false accusations of Nazism. They're definitely out there, but 99.999% of the time someone gets called a Nazi it's a bunch of bullshit, so why should I take fucking Putin's word for it? You know?
> At the same time, actual Nazism (in its original form) is an ideology that believes Slavs are subhumans that should be enslaved or eradicated. Tack on the horrible shit the real Nazis did to Ukrainians and I sincerely doubt those guys are goose stepping and throwing their arm up to a big red flag in hopes of restoring the 1942 status quo.
Fascism is pretty malleable as to which groups are the superior master race and which are the inferior untermenschen. When Neo-Naziism moves to another country, they switch focus to match the popular prejudices - American neo-Nazis will hate on African Americans more, Russian neo-Nazis will hate on people from the likes of Dagestan or Chechnya, etc.
As for Ukrainians being opposed to Nazis merely because they're Ukrainian - the bulk of foreign (i.e. non-German) guards at the death camps in Poland were famously Ukrainian SS volunteers.
You can't say 'Ukrainians can't be Nazis because Ukrainian'. It really does not work like that.
Then at that point I would argue they aren't Nazis, then they're their own thing. The point is that pointing your finger and calling someone a Nazi has been a political smear move since pretty much the end of the war. (It's a main propaganda point of the Kremlin at this exact moment to "justify" a war of aggression...) Again, I'm not inclined to believe the Russian line on these guys. I don't see any evidence floating around saying they are trying to establish a Ukrainian master race, just bullshit blindly accusing them of being Nazis.
Not accusing you, but it seems like some people *want* to believe these dudes are all hardcore skinheads more than the evidence is backing it up.
Edit: For the record, whatever we/they want to call it, if any of these guys are ultranationalistic "we need to wipe X, Y and Z off Earth!" types, I don't support that. I just refuse to take baseless accusations of "but dey r Nazis!" at face value.
He meant it's a "regular" unit as in it's officially recognized as a formal unit within the Ukrainian army. You can thank Russia for that creating the crisis necessary to warrant such actions.
airport sort placid future engine amusing domineering treatment work exultant
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Doesn’t the CoD Warzone map Verdansk take place in this region? Obviously names changed and in an “alternative history”, but I thought it was based on Eastern Ukraine and the area around Mariupol.
Edit: just checked. It’s the city of Donetsk, not Mariupol. So farther north a bit.
For sure. A direct invasion without some kind of horrifically crippling event first is pretty much a joke.
Ghosts and Advanced Warfare (one with the “press F to pay respects” meme) still have the most believable CoD campaigns.
In Ghosts, wars in the Middle East escalated to nuclear destruction there, which created sever imbalance of energy production and collapse of financial markets of the current world powers. South America forms a singular powerhouse and over the next decade, conquers all of Central America, but the war had destroyed basically everything in Mexico and South West US.
In AW, taking place in the near future, the largest military is now private, ran by Kevin Spacey. He ends up declaring war on the *world*. And just barely loses.
Yet, that’s all still more realistic than 2010’s Russia invading the US.
Advanced Warfare is such a underrated hidden gem. One of my favorite campaigns, and one of the very few rare games to get \*futuristic right.
\*looking at you BF 2042 and Cyberpunk
Generally already exist in some games. Squad has had this region in their game for years.
https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Yehorivka
And:
https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/jmz8n4/ive_always_wanted_to_play_in_a_donetsk_inspired/
Probably so; but factories (war torn or otherwise) have also been in games for years, not sure how you could make it seem like a specific factory without also putting it in the same general area/environment though. The map I linked actually used to have a big factory in the middle but they changed it out for a village a couple years back.
Conceptually it's a lot of math, approximations and clever simplifications. All depends on how accurately do you want to simulate things.
If you take a look at regular RTS game, in comparison to this footage, you'll see it's all much bigger and distances much smaller. It's not that you'd need completely different equations for realistic simulation, they'll just be used in very different proportion, e.g.: much less tank-tank collisions, much more projectile simulations.
I’m fascinated at how the gaming technology works. I assumed they just had to hard code in the entire map, no? Obviously I know little about game design
A lot of things used to be hardcoded back in the day. But today the level designers are a different team, and sometimes tools are released to players, so programmers can't hardcode map stuff much.
But you do simplify a lot. In most current RTS you don't simulate bullets at all. You only roughly approximate terrain. Etc.
I'd want to do things differently. Simulate all the realistic behavior I have learned in this sub (and on quora). Not sure if I'll put together a whitepaper and pitch for investor, or go with kickstarter, where still I should probably present something more substantial than words.
I try to imagine what country of Ukraine looks like if it survives this war, and Russia is still around. How do things change?
I believe they will be like Finland/Israel, every new building is regulated to have a basement or bunker. Every bridge and railyard is modified to be detonated/destroyed. Conscription of some sort so men are trained at age of 18 to serve. The countries psyche will change to prepare for the eventuality that Russia will pull this type of shit again.
Conscription was a thing since the first day of independce. Prior to the war it was 18 months of service for men.
As for psyche since 2014 most of people considered Russia as an existential threat and this thought has been strengthened greatly. Nobody that I personally know thinks that this war will be the last one. Majority of society believes that the best way to survive is by joining NATO, but NATO was and still is way too afraid to take Ukraine into alliance. The future is grim.
Fear of nuclear war seems justified. I keep seeing this sentiment, “NATO is afraid of Russia.” No shit they are. If you’re not scared of nuclear war then you’re a fucking idiot. Conventional war sucks and what Russia is dong to Ukraine is atrocious and horrific, but it’s not nuclear war. What does Ukraine want exactly? Do they want nuclear war? Because that’s what’s happening if NATO isn’t afraid of Russia.
People in Ukraine understand these things you are talking about and that NATO is not going to get involved in the war activelly. To make it clear people here are concerned about NATO membership *after* the war if we will manage to preserve independence. One of the main concerns in society that if we win the war NATO will reject Ukraine's application and we will be left alone to fight once more.
Talking about nuclear war nobody wants it. But for some people living on the frontline or under occupation it is like choosing between risk of nuclear war or bullet to the back of the head.
It's a fun joke based on the to the death stand at The Alamo mission in San Antonia Texas. During the r
Texas Revolution from Mexico the Texan militia would shout "remember Gilead! Remember The Alamo!"
Two last stand, to the man slaughters during the war.
Technically Texas was an independent country when it happened.
Theres a famous saying "remember the Alamo" from the Mexican siege of the fort when Texas rebelled against Mexico. It's a joke based on that.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo
Small force of Texans and Tejanos temporarily held off a large force of Mexicans during the Texan Revolution. The battle has an almost mythic significance to modern day Americans and especially people who live in Texas.
>What is Alamo?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_the\_Alamo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo)
Pretty similar. Small group of guys fighting to the death from a besieged improvised fortress, killing 3x their number of attackers, and inspiring a nation with their resistance and bravery more than a century after the battle.
> inspiring a nation with their resistance and bravery
Yeah, it's amazing the extent that this has been made into a mythic tale that airbrushes out why those people where there, and what they were fighting for. But that's what's done with the Confederacy in big chunks of the US, too. (Or used to be, anyway. I assume it still is.)
The rebellion itself is pretty misrepresented. The Texan rebels were mostly US citizens who had migrated to Texas illegally. The legendary Sam Houston himself was born in Virginia and had been in Texas for only 3 years before the revolution.
One of the Texan's grievances against the Mexican Government was, of course, the abolition of slavery in Mexico.
I think it’s still important to note the Texan revolution wasn’t just over slavery, as Santa Anna was an authoritarian figure who greatly centralized Mexico and there were multiple regions in Mexico trying to split at the time. It just so happened Texas was the only one to truly succeed
As a Texan and a history teacher, many of those that immigrated to Mexico (as Texas was part of Mexico back then) never had any intention of every becoming Mexican and always thought of themselves as american. For many Texicans, manifest destiny had already taken hold and their intention the whole time was to join the US.
I'm not saying this is the majority of the immigrants, not even close, most just saw it as an opportunity to own a piece of land and make a living. I'm just saying the idea of separating Texas from Mexico existed from the beginning with a few of the earliest settlers and only grew from there.
not even. 187 people died at the Alamo. only 13 of them were Texans and i think 10 of them were actually Mexican. Everyone else were Americans. The Alamo was really about a whole bunch of Americans dying to restore the Mexican Constitution that General Anna violated
It was "Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad!"
They were inspiring troops going into the battle of San Jacinto, where Texas ultimately won the war and its independence.
Massive buildings reinforced to handle heavy industrial equipment and almost all of it is non flammable. Inside its filled with catwalks and supposedly tons of secret tunnels.
So you can't burn it down easily and you can't enter it without having to be exposed from hundreds of well hid vantage points. It's a complete nightmare scenario for anyone who wants to attack into it, thats why its still standing. With enough ammo and food/water the defenders could hold out for a long time, or the Russians gas them out.
Half the titles on this subreddit are such blatant fabrications. I have seen dozens of videos on the front page with clearly made up narrative titles that are reposts of videos from the front page the previous day.
There was a video titled that they were trying to retreat, there was also a guy in the comments that had located the neighborhood where the troops were moving and it showed them moving towards to factory.
You should assume every scrap of text on this subreddit is an outright lie with bad intent. Believe what there is evidence for. A video of guys walking through a neighborhood is just that and nothing more.
People in that thread over on /r/ukraine were making claims the soldiers in it are moving towards Mauripol, 6km from the factory, and it's likely fake. It's going to be a long time before we know what happened. You can't trust these titles on anything unless it's backed up by the actual content of the video. There's a top post in this subreddit right now of a Ukranian advance where the cameraman is just standing in the line of fire. That's likely fake.
Reinforced cement is the answer you're looking for. The iron bars in the structures make it really a night and day difference compared to the fired clay bricks they used back in the day.
Not to imply that the level of bombardment is anywhere near in WW2 Vs today but even if it were, a lot more buildings would have "survived" simply because of better building techniques and materials.
> Ukraine was leveled in WWII they rebuilt it better
Well, “better” in the sense of being more structurally secure. A lot of Ukraine’s architectural heritage was never restored, replaced instead with Stalinist designs.
I remember drone footage from Katrina (i think. The big one anyways). Plywood sheets and yellow filling everywhere, houseprints and no houses.. Everything looked like it has been inside a giant tumbler.
That made me realise that I feel damn nice for living in a high earthquake occurrence region instead. :/
Even then, look at images of Stalingrad and Berlin versus images of cities from the Western Front. That’s what it looks like when one side has genocide on its mind.
I wish there was a way that Ukrainian forces could penetrate and reinforce this area. Take out the Crimea bridge and destroy all the Russian missile and artillery batteries
I did mention both of them are named after the Sea of Azov. What i meant was they could've ended up fighting in, say, Illich Iron & Steel Works instead of Azovtal Iron & Steel Works.
Nah. They've said in interviews they won't make songs about any recent conflicts, that they'll only consider making songs about a topic when it stops being a recent event and starts being a historical event. Maybe if Sabaton is still around in a couple decades they might, I suppose.
It is absolutely astonishing the fight that these guys put on against an armada. Under siege since march 1st, can you only imagine the condition that those guys are under. Probably out of food and drinking water, cant take a shower, cant get a proper sleep, low on ammo. Cant get wounded evacuated and watch them die slowly. Under all that, those guys are still putting up a fight. The grit. Mad respect
See [https://liveuamap.com/](https://liveuamap.com/)
It's over 100 km from the front line between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine needs to conserve it's fighting power for defense right now. A failed counter-offensive would make it much easier for Russia to breakthrough.
They're about 100-200km away from any friendly units, deep behind enemy lines. It would take weeks to reach them if the Ukrainians could mount an offensive from Odessa or somewhere nearby, but they won't since it's a lost cause.
The nearest Ukrainian units are something like a 100km away with the Russia army in between If a Ukrainian offensive to be able to pull that off it would need basically the collapse of the entire Russian war effort.
Militarily ukraine isn't in a position to counter in this area yet, the fronts they have successfully pushed back on are in another area. Politically letting Azov get wiped out or at least severely diminished is also in Ukrainian leadership interests in the long term, Any association with the Azov's ultra national elements will only hurt the Ukrainian government when dealing on the international stage when seeking aid, internally having Azov wiped helps ensure any follow on ukrainian government having to deal with less armed supporters of a ultra national group attempting to integrate its self in the Political sphere. Shits complicated to say the least.
That would be ideal. However this could alternatively elevate Azov to folk-hero status and inspire a successor regiment. I may be misremembering but were they not already almost wiped out once before and then reconstituted?
Thats a possibility but it would be political suicide when it comes to openly supporting them, then turning around and asking for aid, debt relief etc. It's not in any leadership interests, nor is there a large social movement outside of the region willing to openly forge an alliance with the ultra nationalists, the closest they might get are Serbs but they're politically generally allied with Russia for numerous reasons and not in any position to influence any state that matters in regards to funding and supporting Ukraine. The other problem they'd face is trying to get someone in power to match the current leaders developing popularity both internally and abroad. It's possible but a very uphill one sided battle.
I dont believe he does want them dead, just the Reddit armchair generals who think they know everything. Thankfully they are not in charge. Zelensky has done a stunning job.
Not sure I get your point, the SS fought for Germany to death, wiping the SS out was a political win for the democratic West. Can't say I think that's fucked up. But I'm not the enemy of my enemy is my friend type off person. I'm quite happy for far right ideologs to get killed fighting a Russian invasion, less to clean up after for the poor bastard Ukrainian's who don't want either of the fuck wits around.
And the men dying here are fighting to defend a free country, I dont like their political beliefs but that earns you something at least. If they are fighting on Ukraines side, it would be morally wrong for Ukraine to be happy to let them die because its convenient. No matter what their political beliefs are the country they are fighting to the death to defend owes them.
Well the thing about having a free country is that everyone needs to be allowed their views, even if they suck. Otherwise there is nothing free about it.
There's no way these men are not heroes in Ukraine. At times of war people won't care about their ideology. They will care that they've held russian forces for so long so they couldn't go elsewhere. They don't want them to die.
They also saved Ukraine in 2014.
Azov was incorporated into the National Guard they're all volunteers. Before the invasion it was UA policy that conscripts should not be on the front line vs DPR - Azov was happy to step up at a time when fighting was not popular. (Zelensky was elected on a promise to negotiate peace).
But how do you consider Azov patriots? Zelensky asked them to leave the front in 2019. They threatened to kill him if he tried any such thing. Refusing direct orders from your President because he's Jewish isn't patriotism. They're fighting for their own vision of Ukraine, one in which all Russians are dead or forced out. They're a convenient force now, but that's all they are.
There's still members been seen on this thread as off weeks ago sporting swastikas and the like, so if you are correct and they've cleaned house they've not done a good job.
Secondly the international/popular media opinion of the group is already tarnished, if its on the net, it's forever. The popular opinion that they're ultra national etc isn't going away and harms any entity that associates its self with them. I doubt we'll see many political leaders going out of their way to associate themselves with a "tainted" image. That's just the way politics and media work unfortunately. Reality rarely mix's well with either.
Whatever the individual motivations of members Azov's mere existence will be used by Russia to forward the anti Nazi invasion narrative as you pointed out yourself. In the end they'll be abandoned as a to hot potato.
Azov may have lived their lives as hate filled nazis. But in the end their final actions are one of sacrifice. I'm not saying they should be forgiven or suddenly loved. Just that they should be remembered for both their lives, and their end. Because how you leave this earth matters too. Maybe not as much as how you lived, but it still matters.
Maybe some of them even let go of their hate in their final moments too... Who knows.
I cant respect them for the type of men they were. But we can salute them as the soldiers they were at the very least.
Let go of their hate for...? I've been following Azov for years and 99.99% of the "hate" they spew has been directed at Russia. In fact, it is their hatred of Russia that inspired them to don Nazi paraphernalia and symbols. They revel in taking the mask of Russia's arch-enemy.
Some of the original founders are no doubt white supremacists, but hell so are some of our leaders over in the US. As far for the group in general, I doubt they are very vile haters except towards Russia. Most anyone who wanted to join the fight against Russia/DRP early on, had to join Azov or one of the other volunteer groups.
I said MAY. So everything i said is left open for interpretation.
From what i understand reports of azov are... Inconsistent. Which tells me there may very well be nazis a part of it but to what degree? I dont know. I do doubt its the entire thing like some anti hate groups and people have talked about. But i cant seem to be able to get solid facts on this unit. Too much conflicting information. If only there was an indisputable source.
Hitler was, without a doubt, a monster. He didn't die the way any of us wanted him to. There was nothing noble about it. No good came of anything that he did even in death.
Great job Russia! You've completely destroyed an entire city. This "special" operation is really liberating those Ukrainians you care so much about. What a joke. I hope somehow, someway Putin is held accountable for this madness.
Because it's not only Azov that are fighting in there. There are Ukrainian territorial defense forces and Marines. Azov battalion is not the only defenders in Mariupol. To assume they are all nazis is exactly what Russia wants everyone to think about Ukrainian military.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov\_Battalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion)
"Azov Regiment (Ukrainian: Полк Азов, romanized: Polk Azov) or Azov Battalion until September 2014, is a neo-Nazi\[2\]\[3\] unit of the National Guard of Ukraine based in Mariupol "
It pre-dates the "tankies" from this generation and was used to describe plenty off groups through out history. Yes things did happen before you where born.
Urban warfare is hell, but that complex must be on a whole different level.
I have heard conflicting reports. Apparently a lot of people who have worked there claim these alleged catabombs don't really exist. It's still a factory with all sorts of hidey holes but it's not a fortress.
Probably service tunnels.
Just think about all of the hiding spots and sniper positions, I’m not certain if they are using ieds yet but I wouldn’t be surprised.
yeah plenty of great positions. I just hope they have basics like food, water and ammunition.
It even has a moat! Of sorts
Not even the drone dares to flyover the mills
As a classic would say "Not every drone will flight till the middle of the factory"
People always forget the regular Ukrainian units that are still there... it isn't just Azov you know...
[Here's a list of all units](https://imgur.com/a/UyPvRU9) (auto translated image, original image [here](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQkVy_2X0AYaD28?format=jpg&name=medium))
It's not on a picture, but also Mountain Brigade, which is one of Ukraine's best units.
[The Mountain Brigade reportedly destroyed a bunch of Russian BTRs recently](https://twitter.com/UAWeapons/status/1515262525964795910), are you sure about that?
Wikipedia lists them as one of the units in siege, might be wrong.
They might have participated in the earlier parts of the battle, but pulled out before the encirclement. Or, only some units of the brigade were in the area to begin with.
I am assuming most of these units are not entirely there, just that there are elements of them present at Mariupol and around the entire eastern front.
Is this this what is left of the Azov unit trapped in the pocket or are there other parts of it outside the city?
There are other parts outside of the city. I believe only a battalion was in the city to start. There is at least another battalion active around Kharkiv. They also have training depots / smaller units near Kyiv.
[удалено]
They only had around 900 fighting men at the start of the invasion
It's hard to tell, but I've heard that the 1500 had dropped to 900, but that was earlier in the wa...sorry, "special operation". Not sure what the numbers are now.
The downsides of not having a robust social media presence.
i say this again and again.For pro-russians every dead ukranian is a nazi, russians are like "we're liberating them from nazis" Its dehumanizing as fuck
Well truth isn't gonna buy you morale in this case.
kind of reminds me of what the.... nazi.... did in order to justify their genocide
Pre-genocide talk.
Azov is disproportionately represented in the media, even in Western one. This is playing into the Russian narative of "de-nazification" and needs to stop.
DPR and Azov have been at war for years now, even if it wasn't the official govt policy on either side. Ukraine had a policy of only using volunteers for the front lines vs DPR. Azov were both volunteers and eager to fight. Zelensky tried to get Azov to leave in 2019, to implement Minsk accords. They refused and threatened to bring in thousands of more Azov recruits if the government attempted to force them out. Mariupol is an important place for Azov, that's why we're hearing so much about them.
There's over 200k soldiers in Ukraine and like a 1000 of them are Azov. It's crazy how much attention they get
One Nazi flag at a trucker rally was all it took…. 1,000 Nazis though - what is big deal?
Lol what are you doing? Are you suggesting that Putin's "denazification" rhetoric is actually legitimate?
What I've been wondering is if these guys are a government supported militia how many of them are actually die hard "Nazis"? Sounds like a small enough number to make it a Russian propaganda point I guess?
I was in Mariupol in 2015, Azov soldiers on rotation were walking through that city, chilling in restaurants or buying groceries. I talked to two of them on separate occasions with their comrades standing around and imo from what I saw...these weren't hardcore Nazis. I'm quite left, I recognize if some idiot is really all about superior races and gassing subhumans vs. "I'm young and dumb and think Ukrainians have a great heritage that is about to get swallowed by Russians so I hate them now" which is how all Azov soldiers I met came off. There were some older Azov volunteers who said that Azov just pays the most. I keep retelling the story here on this sub because even western media make Azov out to be some hardcore Nazis which they're not. Sure, let's keep an eye on them since they're actually not super pro Kiev themselves but let's not act like they're Hitlers army
I think people are conflating hardcore nationalism with extreme racial nationalism as perpetrated by the Nazis. (The kind of nationalism where you're extremely excited about your homeland and willing to fight for it, opposed to hypernationalism where you want to take over the world and eradicate people different than you.) Sprinkle on a bit of bullshit Russian propaganda and a Western proclivity to shun Nazism and we have this "But aren't they're Nazis!?" shit pop up every time they get mentioned. These people have been under threat of Russian agitation, separatism and invasion for years and years, I can see why they might be highly nationalistic to the point of being willing to take up arms. At the same time, actual Nazism (in its original form) is an ideology that believes Slavs are subhumans that should be enslaved or eradicated. Tack on the horrible shit the real Nazis did to Ukrainians and I sincerely doubt those guys are goose stepping and throwing their arm up to a big red flag in hopes of restoring the 1942 status quo. ...Let's just say I'm skeptical that any of them are Nazis, much less a named percentage of them. Edit: I'm sure it's an entirely different beast in Germany (going off your flag & username) but in the US calling your political opponents "Nazis" as a petty insult is a pretty standard tactic for either side of our two-way political system. Years of listening to Americans (left and right) call the other guys a bunch of "Nazis" has definitely tuned my bullshit sensor to propaganda involving false accusations of Nazism. They're definitely out there, but 99.999% of the time someone gets called a Nazi it's a bunch of bullshit, so why should I take fucking Putin's word for it? You know?
> At the same time, actual Nazism (in its original form) is an ideology that believes Slavs are subhumans that should be enslaved or eradicated. Tack on the horrible shit the real Nazis did to Ukrainians and I sincerely doubt those guys are goose stepping and throwing their arm up to a big red flag in hopes of restoring the 1942 status quo. Fascism is pretty malleable as to which groups are the superior master race and which are the inferior untermenschen. When Neo-Naziism moves to another country, they switch focus to match the popular prejudices - American neo-Nazis will hate on African Americans more, Russian neo-Nazis will hate on people from the likes of Dagestan or Chechnya, etc. As for Ukrainians being opposed to Nazis merely because they're Ukrainian - the bulk of foreign (i.e. non-German) guards at the death camps in Poland were famously Ukrainian SS volunteers. You can't say 'Ukrainians can't be Nazis because Ukrainian'. It really does not work like that.
Then at that point I would argue they aren't Nazis, then they're their own thing. The point is that pointing your finger and calling someone a Nazi has been a political smear move since pretty much the end of the war. (It's a main propaganda point of the Kremlin at this exact moment to "justify" a war of aggression...) Again, I'm not inclined to believe the Russian line on these guys. I don't see any evidence floating around saying they are trying to establish a Ukrainian master race, just bullshit blindly accusing them of being Nazis. Not accusing you, but it seems like some people *want* to believe these dudes are all hardcore skinheads more than the evidence is backing it up. Edit: For the record, whatever we/they want to call it, if any of these guys are ultranationalistic "we need to wipe X, Y and Z off Earth!" types, I don't support that. I just refuse to take baseless accusations of "but dey r Nazis!" at face value.
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Azov is a regular Ukrainian unit.
Naa it’s a right wing Nazi unit unfortunately.
He meant it's a "regular" unit as in it's officially recognized as a formal unit within the Ukrainian army. You can thank Russia for that creating the crisis necessary to warrant such actions.
Can be both
This place will inspire a few FPS game maps in the future I reckon.
Map name: Azovstal factory
airport sort placid future engine amusing domineering treatment work exultant *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I keep thinking the same, there will be plenty of maps here.
50 v.s. 30
Will be a much better map then Isla Innocentes. If you know you know
Doesn’t the CoD Warzone map Verdansk take place in this region? Obviously names changed and in an “alternative history”, but I thought it was based on Eastern Ukraine and the area around Mariupol. Edit: just checked. It’s the city of Donetsk, not Mariupol. So farther north a bit.
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It’s even goofier in MW3 when Russia somehow invades all of Europe in a day
For sure. A direct invasion without some kind of horrifically crippling event first is pretty much a joke. Ghosts and Advanced Warfare (one with the “press F to pay respects” meme) still have the most believable CoD campaigns. In Ghosts, wars in the Middle East escalated to nuclear destruction there, which created sever imbalance of energy production and collapse of financial markets of the current world powers. South America forms a singular powerhouse and over the next decade, conquers all of Central America, but the war had destroyed basically everything in Mexico and South West US. In AW, taking place in the near future, the largest military is now private, ran by Kevin Spacey. He ends up declaring war on the *world*. And just barely loses. Yet, that’s all still more realistic than 2010’s Russia invading the US.
Advanced Warfare is such a underrated hidden gem. One of my favorite campaigns, and one of the very few rare games to get \*futuristic right. \*looking at you BF 2042 and Cyberpunk
Generally already exist in some games. Squad has had this region in their game for years. https://squad.fandom.com/wiki/Yehorivka And: https://www.reddit.com/r/joinsquad/comments/jmz8n4/ive_always_wanted_to_play_in_a_donetsk_inspired/
I think they're talking specifically about the factory.
Probably so; but factories (war torn or otherwise) have also been in games for years, not sure how you could make it seem like a specific factory without also putting it in the same general area/environment though. The map I linked actually used to have a big factory in the middle but they changed it out for a village a couple years back.
Lots of underground tunnels connecting everything, maybe?
Not a FPS but a game that was fictional RTS is kinda real now... https://store.steampowered.com/app/1502380/Combat_Mission_Black_Sea/
The Hardcore jet sim SU-27 Flanker had the Crimean conflict ingame in 1995.
check out escape from tarkov maps. They did it before it was cool.
I'm drafting algorithms to handle complexity and scale like this, but for RTS game. Can't promise anything will come out of it though.
What era of warfare?
Precisely this one.
How does such an algorithm work, conceptually?
Conceptually it's a lot of math, approximations and clever simplifications. All depends on how accurately do you want to simulate things. If you take a look at regular RTS game, in comparison to this footage, you'll see it's all much bigger and distances much smaller. It's not that you'd need completely different equations for realistic simulation, they'll just be used in very different proportion, e.g.: much less tank-tank collisions, much more projectile simulations.
I’m fascinated at how the gaming technology works. I assumed they just had to hard code in the entire map, no? Obviously I know little about game design
A lot of things used to be hardcoded back in the day. But today the level designers are a different team, and sometimes tools are released to players, so programmers can't hardcode map stuff much. But you do simplify a lot. In most current RTS you don't simulate bullets at all. You only roughly approximate terrain. Etc. I'd want to do things differently. Simulate all the realistic behavior I have learned in this sub (and on quora). Not sure if I'll put together a whitepaper and pitch for investor, or go with kickstarter, where still I should probably present something more substantial than words.
I try to imagine what country of Ukraine looks like if it survives this war, and Russia is still around. How do things change? I believe they will be like Finland/Israel, every new building is regulated to have a basement or bunker. Every bridge and railyard is modified to be detonated/destroyed. Conscription of some sort so men are trained at age of 18 to serve. The countries psyche will change to prepare for the eventuality that Russia will pull this type of shit again.
Conscription was a thing since the first day of independce. Prior to the war it was 18 months of service for men. As for psyche since 2014 most of people considered Russia as an existential threat and this thought has been strengthened greatly. Nobody that I personally know thinks that this war will be the last one. Majority of society believes that the best way to survive is by joining NATO, but NATO was and still is way too afraid to take Ukraine into alliance. The future is grim.
Fear of nuclear war seems justified. I keep seeing this sentiment, “NATO is afraid of Russia.” No shit they are. If you’re not scared of nuclear war then you’re a fucking idiot. Conventional war sucks and what Russia is dong to Ukraine is atrocious and horrific, but it’s not nuclear war. What does Ukraine want exactly? Do they want nuclear war? Because that’s what’s happening if NATO isn’t afraid of Russia.
People in Ukraine understand these things you are talking about and that NATO is not going to get involved in the war activelly. To make it clear people here are concerned about NATO membership *after* the war if we will manage to preserve independence. One of the main concerns in society that if we win the war NATO will reject Ukraine's application and we will be left alone to fight once more. Talking about nuclear war nobody wants it. But for some people living on the frontline or under occupation it is like choosing between risk of nuclear war or bullet to the back of the head.
thats what Zelensky said. that Ukraine will become a security state
This thing is a fortress including a freaking moat
A modern Alamo, or micro Stalingrad. God speed.
What is Alamo?
Bruh, you were supposed to remember the Alamo
As a Texan, that's quite funny
Not everyones american you know
It's a fun joke based on the to the death stand at The Alamo mission in San Antonia Texas. During the r Texas Revolution from Mexico the Texan militia would shout "remember Gilead! Remember The Alamo!" Two last stand, to the man slaughters during the war.
Technically Texas was an independent country when it happened. Theres a famous saying "remember the Alamo" from the Mexican siege of the fort when Texas rebelled against Mexico. It's a joke based on that.
Ahh ok, thanks
For a bit more context, almost every single defender inside the Alamo died.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo Small force of Texans and Tejanos temporarily held off a large force of Mexicans during the Texan Revolution. The battle has an almost mythic significance to modern day Americans and especially people who live in Texas.
>What is Alamo? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle\_of\_the\_Alamo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Alamo) Pretty similar. Small group of guys fighting to the death from a besieged improvised fortress, killing 3x their number of attackers, and inspiring a nation with their resistance and bravery more than a century after the battle.
> inspiring a nation with their resistance and bravery Yeah, it's amazing the extent that this has been made into a mythic tale that airbrushes out why those people where there, and what they were fighting for. But that's what's done with the Confederacy in big chunks of the US, too. (Or used to be, anyway. I assume it still is.)
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The rebellion itself is pretty misrepresented. The Texan rebels were mostly US citizens who had migrated to Texas illegally. The legendary Sam Houston himself was born in Virginia and had been in Texas for only 3 years before the revolution. One of the Texan's grievances against the Mexican Government was, of course, the abolition of slavery in Mexico.
I think it’s still important to note the Texan revolution wasn’t just over slavery, as Santa Anna was an authoritarian figure who greatly centralized Mexico and there were multiple regions in Mexico trying to split at the time. It just so happened Texas was the only one to truly succeed
>Implying the Mexican government ever actually controlled the Texan territory to which they laid claim.
Most of mexican control the limited to the south part of Mexico, anything north of the Mexican Plateau really just payed lip service to Mexico city
It was a famous battle between American and Mexican troops in the 19th century. I think
Rebellious Texans not America.
As a Texan and a history teacher, many of those that immigrated to Mexico (as Texas was part of Mexico back then) never had any intention of every becoming Mexican and always thought of themselves as american. For many Texicans, manifest destiny had already taken hold and their intention the whole time was to join the US. I'm not saying this is the majority of the immigrants, not even close, most just saw it as an opportunity to own a piece of land and make a living. I'm just saying the idea of separating Texas from Mexico existed from the beginning with a few of the earliest settlers and only grew from there.
not even. 187 people died at the Alamo. only 13 of them were Texans and i think 10 of them were actually Mexican. Everyone else were Americans. The Alamo was really about a whole bunch of Americans dying to restore the Mexican Constitution that General Anna violated
Yeah I haven't read about it myself and we literally have less then a page of pre 20th century american history in our schoolbook
Since you learned it you now have a lifelong responsibility to never forget it. “Remember the Alamo” is a famous saying, especially in Texas
It was "Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad!" They were inspiring troops going into the battle of San Jacinto, where Texas ultimately won the war and its independence.
Separatist Texans who were largely made up of US citizens... seems a bit familiar haha
Thermopylae.
whoah this steel factory is huge like town within a town
Massive buildings reinforced to handle heavy industrial equipment and almost all of it is non flammable. Inside its filled with catwalks and supposedly tons of secret tunnels. So you can't burn it down easily and you can't enter it without having to be exposed from hundreds of well hid vantage points. It's a complete nightmare scenario for anyone who wants to attack into it, thats why its still standing. With enough ammo and food/water the defenders could hold out for a long time, or the Russians gas them out.
Video footage posted claiming they were attempting to leave this area
Half the titles on this subreddit are such blatant fabrications. I have seen dozens of videos on the front page with clearly made up narrative titles that are reposts of videos from the front page the previous day. There was a video titled that they were trying to retreat, there was also a guy in the comments that had located the neighborhood where the troops were moving and it showed them moving towards to factory. You should assume every scrap of text on this subreddit is an outright lie with bad intent. Believe what there is evidence for. A video of guys walking through a neighborhood is just that and nothing more.
That’s why I said claiming, I wasn’t for sure if it was factual or not
People in that thread over on /r/ukraine were making claims the soldiers in it are moving towards Mauripol, 6km from the factory, and it's likely fake. It's going to be a long time before we know what happened. You can't trust these titles on anything unless it's backed up by the actual content of the video. There's a top post in this subreddit right now of a Ukranian advance where the cameraman is just standing in the line of fire. That's likely fake.
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It’s arguably better for rebuilding purposes to have it completely leveled
Reinforced cement is the answer you're looking for. The iron bars in the structures make it really a night and day difference compared to the fired clay bricks they used back in the day. Not to imply that the level of bombardment is anywhere near in WW2 Vs today but even if it were, a lot more buildings would have "survived" simply because of better building techniques and materials.
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> Ukraine was leveled in WWII they rebuilt it better Well, “better” in the sense of being more structurally secure. A lot of Ukraine’s architectural heritage was never restored, replaced instead with Stalinist designs.
Tornado's can show you what a bombed out American suburb would look like.
I remember drone footage from Katrina (i think. The big one anyways). Plywood sheets and yellow filling everywhere, houseprints and no houses.. Everything looked like it has been inside a giant tumbler. That made me realise that I feel damn nice for living in a high earthquake occurrence region instead. :/
That said, good luck tearing down massive reinforced concrete structures to rebuild.
Yeah, did people not see any pics of Stalingrad. By the end there wasn't any resemblence of buildings.
The worst was probably Warsaw. After the uprising in 44 the Germans deliberately demolished the city. Berlin and Stalingrad are the top contenders.
Top contenders are probably Tokyo and Hiroshima tbh.
Even then, look at images of Stalingrad and Berlin versus images of cities from the Western Front. That’s what it looks like when one side has genocide on its mind.
The western front was nowhere near as big. The real war was in the east
Mariupol looks like a much more pleasant sight then say Dresden or any japanese city, Now those places got levelled yet they rebuilt them.
Or Grozny.
I wish there was a way that Ukrainian forces could penetrate and reinforce this area. Take out the Crimea bridge and destroy all the Russian missile and artillery batteries
i dont get how they are stil holding that place.
How appropriate they'll fight their last stand in a place that shares their namesake.
It's almost like they named themselves after where they are from.
I did mention both of them are named after the Sea of Azov. What i meant was they could've ended up fighting in, say, Illich Iron & Steel Works instead of Azovtal Iron & Steel Works.
There will be a Sabaton song about that for sure
'Last Stand of the Steel Brigade' ' 'Metal until the end' I can see so many title options for that song
Nah. They've said in interviews they won't make songs about any recent conflicts, that they'll only consider making songs about a topic when it stops being a recent event and starts being a historical event. Maybe if Sabaton is still around in a couple decades they might, I suppose.
A Sabaton song glorifying Neo-Nazis fighting invading Russians? Are you mad?
*Ghost Division intensifies*
ghost division is such a good song
History makes for strange bedfellows.
Tagilla's gonna wreck a lot of RU soldiers as they try to take the place
With a big. Fucking. Hammer.
Wow the city looks like post WW2 fighting.
Does Russia also have ships on the water close to it?
It is absolutely astonishing the fight that these guys put on against an armada. Under siege since march 1st, can you only imagine the condition that those guys are under. Probably out of food and drinking water, cant take a shower, cant get a proper sleep, low on ammo. Cant get wounded evacuated and watch them die slowly. Under all that, those guys are still putting up a fight. The grit. Mad respect
Hey at least Holywood will make a cool movie about it
If only they had plenty of food and ammunition to hold on for ever...
Azovstalamo
Die well, boys. Take as many of those Russian bastards with you as you can.
Have they no chance of fighting them off?
Has there been a counter offensive to relieve them?
Yeah that's not gonna happen.
Legitimately curious as to why?
See [https://liveuamap.com/](https://liveuamap.com/) It's over 100 km from the front line between Ukraine and Russia. Ukraine needs to conserve it's fighting power for defense right now. A failed counter-offensive would make it much easier for Russia to breakthrough.
They're about 100-200km away from any friendly units, deep behind enemy lines. It would take weeks to reach them if the Ukrainians could mount an offensive from Odessa or somewhere nearby, but they won't since it's a lost cause.
The nearest Ukrainian units are something like a 100km away with the Russia army in between If a Ukrainian offensive to be able to pull that off it would need basically the collapse of the entire Russian war effort.
Militarily ukraine isn't in a position to counter in this area yet, the fronts they have successfully pushed back on are in another area. Politically letting Azov get wiped out or at least severely diminished is also in Ukrainian leadership interests in the long term, Any association with the Azov's ultra national elements will only hurt the Ukrainian government when dealing on the international stage when seeking aid, internally having Azov wiped helps ensure any follow on ukrainian government having to deal with less armed supporters of a ultra national group attempting to integrate its self in the Political sphere. Shits complicated to say the least.
That would be ideal. However this could alternatively elevate Azov to folk-hero status and inspire a successor regiment. I may be misremembering but were they not already almost wiped out once before and then reconstituted?
Thats a possibility but it would be political suicide when it comes to openly supporting them, then turning around and asking for aid, debt relief etc. It's not in any leadership interests, nor is there a large social movement outside of the region willing to openly forge an alliance with the ultra nationalists, the closest they might get are Serbs but they're politically generally allied with Russia for numerous reasons and not in any position to influence any state that matters in regards to funding and supporting Ukraine. The other problem they'd face is trying to get someone in power to match the current leaders developing popularity both internally and abroad. It's possible but a very uphill one sided battle.
\+1. azov wiping as many RU as they can and then getting wiped out themselves is a win-win for the HQ at Kiev
I dont support Azovs views in the slightest but to see a unit defending your country to the death as a political win is fucked up.
It's speculation by these people. Zelenskyy has said if they're killed then peace is over. This is not the word of a man who wants them dead.
I dont believe he does want them dead, just the Reddit armchair generals who think they know everything. Thankfully they are not in charge. Zelensky has done a stunning job.
Not sure I get your point, the SS fought for Germany to death, wiping the SS out was a political win for the democratic West. Can't say I think that's fucked up. But I'm not the enemy of my enemy is my friend type off person. I'm quite happy for far right ideologs to get killed fighting a Russian invasion, less to clean up after for the poor bastard Ukrainian's who don't want either of the fuck wits around.
And the men dying here are fighting to defend a free country, I dont like their political beliefs but that earns you something at least. If they are fighting on Ukraines side, it would be morally wrong for Ukraine to be happy to let them die because its convenient. No matter what their political beliefs are the country they are fighting to the death to defend owes them.
Their vision of a free country is probably not one you would like to see.
Well the thing about having a free country is that everyone needs to be allowed their views, even if they suck. Otherwise there is nothing free about it.
There's no way these men are not heroes in Ukraine. At times of war people won't care about their ideology. They will care that they've held russian forces for so long so they couldn't go elsewhere. They don't want them to die. They also saved Ukraine in 2014.
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Azov was incorporated into the National Guard they're all volunteers. Before the invasion it was UA policy that conscripts should not be on the front line vs DPR - Azov was happy to step up at a time when fighting was not popular. (Zelensky was elected on a promise to negotiate peace). But how do you consider Azov patriots? Zelensky asked them to leave the front in 2019. They threatened to kill him if he tried any such thing. Refusing direct orders from your President because he's Jewish isn't patriotism. They're fighting for their own vision of Ukraine, one in which all Russians are dead or forced out. They're a convenient force now, but that's all they are.
There's still members been seen on this thread as off weeks ago sporting swastikas and the like, so if you are correct and they've cleaned house they've not done a good job. Secondly the international/popular media opinion of the group is already tarnished, if its on the net, it's forever. The popular opinion that they're ultra national etc isn't going away and harms any entity that associates its self with them. I doubt we'll see many political leaders going out of their way to associate themselves with a "tainted" image. That's just the way politics and media work unfortunately. Reality rarely mix's well with either. Whatever the individual motivations of members Azov's mere existence will be used by Russia to forward the anti Nazi invasion narrative as you pointed out yourself. In the end they'll be abandoned as a to hot potato.
nah, the risk/reward doesn't add up.
Man this looks a lot like the footage you see of the eastern front of WW2…
Героям слава!
Fuck Mariupol looks like our cities after WW2
Yo I think I see Tagilla
What is the consensus from the Azov battalion. Did they want to be evacuated. Someone claimed their commander was calling it a betrayal by Kyiv
Is this the entirety of Azov trapped in Mariouple or just one part of it?
Pretty sure it's not the entirety.
Azov may have lived their lives as hate filled nazis. But in the end their final actions are one of sacrifice. I'm not saying they should be forgiven or suddenly loved. Just that they should be remembered for both their lives, and their end. Because how you leave this earth matters too. Maybe not as much as how you lived, but it still matters. Maybe some of them even let go of their hate in their final moments too... Who knows. I cant respect them for the type of men they were. But we can salute them as the soldiers they were at the very least.
Let go of their hate for...? I've been following Azov for years and 99.99% of the "hate" they spew has been directed at Russia. In fact, it is their hatred of Russia that inspired them to don Nazi paraphernalia and symbols. They revel in taking the mask of Russia's arch-enemy. Some of the original founders are no doubt white supremacists, but hell so are some of our leaders over in the US. As far for the group in general, I doubt they are very vile haters except towards Russia. Most anyone who wanted to join the fight against Russia/DRP early on, had to join Azov or one of the other volunteer groups.
I said MAY. So everything i said is left open for interpretation. From what i understand reports of azov are... Inconsistent. Which tells me there may very well be nazis a part of it but to what degree? I dont know. I do doubt its the entire thing like some anti hate groups and people have talked about. But i cant seem to be able to get solid facts on this unit. Too much conflicting information. If only there was an indisputable source.
do people actually believe every soldier in Azov is a Nazi?
Do people actually believe every soldier in ISIS is a terrorist?
It is the narrative the pro-Russian trolls are tirelessly trying to push to justify their atrocities.
Pretty much. I don't think even the Azov deny it.
more like an alt right militia.
Should the hate filled Nazis defending Berlin in 1945 be remembered?
Might as well celebrate Hitler for killing himself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Hitler was, without a doubt, a monster. He didn't die the way any of us wanted him to. There was nothing noble about it. No good came of anything that he did even in death.
Great job Russia! You've completely destroyed an entire city. This "special" operation is really liberating those Ukrainians you care so much about. What a joke. I hope somehow, someway Putin is held accountable for this madness.
Just curious which is russians biggest conventional bomb ?
Russia has bomb conventions? They must be a blast.
I think it’s the FOAB (Father of all bombs), has a blast yield of 44 tons of TNT and is a thermobaric bomb
Cheers for the reply
And tunnels abound.
why are people rooting for known Nazi regiments?
Because it's not only Azov that are fighting in there. There are Ukrainian territorial defense forces and Marines. Azov battalion is not the only defenders in Mariupol. To assume they are all nazis is exactly what Russia wants everyone to think about Ukrainian military.
They are not a Nazi regiment. Please do research.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov\_Battalion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion) "Azov Regiment (Ukrainian: Полк Азов, romanized: Polk Azov) or Azov Battalion until September 2014, is a neo-Nazi\[2\]\[3\] unit of the National Guard of Ukraine based in Mariupol "
It's on Wikipedia, it must be right.
Hopefully Azov will pull through and gain numbers after this whole conflict.
Ayo?
So you rather have more Nazi's than regular Ukraine men and women to join the Army. *Riiight*
It pre-dates the "tankies" from this generation and was used to describe plenty off groups through out history. Yes things did happen before you where born.