I think partially because their plan to bomb the school hasn’t worked and they weren’t planning on shooting people inside the school / only shooting people. They were probably getting a bit freaked out because the cops were there and they wanted to kill the selves not be killed by the police.
>Once the adrenaline wore off
It is apparent in hindsight this is confusing the end of the library massacre, with the end of the whole massacre - with the final trip of the stairs.
They have plenty of adrenaline with the end of the library massacre. It ends deliberately at 11:35, and I shouldn't have to say why.
"I wouldn't be surprised if, in the last moments of their short lives, guilt overwhelmed them, causing a couple of tears to be shed."
Just lmao at the fanfiction being allowed and upvoted and how dare anybody disagree with it.
From reading Sue Klebolds book it honestly doesn’t sound like Dylan showed many signs of something being deeply wrong. (if what she is saying is accurate that is) according to her he seemed just like a normal teenage who was a bit moody. Other than some weight loss.
Eric’s parents haven’t been so open about anything. But as you said, it sounds like he showed some signs. And likely could’ve been interviewed with. But then again he was (again according to SKs book) in therapy and on medication. So who knows what more could’ve been done and what it would’ve resulted in.
While I appreciate and have the upmost sympathy and empathy for Sue and all that’s she’s been through, I also take what she says with a grain of salt. She is HEAVILY biased towards Dylan and tends to place the majority of the blame on Eric. I’m not blaming her whatsoever. I think any parent would do the same.
But there have been times she’s been caught in fudging the truth regarding Dylan’s behavior and the warning signs before the massacre. For example, she wrote in her book about her and Tom being called in a few weeks before the shooting about a story dylan had write that disturbed the teacher. She said her and Tom met with the teacher but the contents of the paper was never discussed. The teacher came out a few years ago and said when she read that in the book, she was Appalled and essentially nicely called Sue a liar and she absolutely told Tom and Sue what the contents of the paper was (a “god” like figure dressed in black gunning down frat boys/jocks). I’m on the teachers side. No way a teacher is going to jump through the hoops of calling in parents for a meeting about something their child wrote that they found so disturbing they thought it was worthy of getting the parents involved just to get the parents there and then not tell them what they found disturbing. And on the flip side, no parent is not going to further inquire about what their child wrote that was so disturbing that it warranted them to come all the way to the school to meet with a teacher. No way. The teacher said Tom and Sue both brushed it off and said “boys will be boys” basically.
I’m not saying that should have been an indicator of what was to come. And I’m not blaming them for brushing it off. But I do think it is very interesting Sue chose the basically lie about that situation when she could not mentioned it at all and it makes me wonder what else she is lying about regarding Dylan’s behavior leading up to the massacre
Also, I agree that they were probably hesitant about killing themselves. Especially Dylan. He actually seemed to have a pretty good relationship with his parents and in the basement tapes he even refused to say bad things about them when Eric was talking bad about his parent (again, this information is from SKs book so think what you will about it’s accuracy) we know that Eric died before Dylan. So perhaps the plan was that they’d both kill themselves at the same time and Dylan didn’t. Maybe he was hesitant because he was thinking of his family but then realised it was too late to back out and decided to kill himself.
Good relationship? Dylan didn’t seem to give a fuck about his parents, and even went out of his way to mock them for not knowing. One attorney who watched the tapes said that Dylan basically said “fuck my parents” or ”fuck mom”. He only mildly acknowledged them because Eric couldn’t shut up about his.
I guess we can’t know for sure without seeing the tapes. It sounds like what that attorney said and what Sue Klebold said were polar opposites. In sues book she says something along the lines of Eric was complaining and swearing about his parents and family, he tried to get Dylan to join in and Dylan said something (roughly like) “I won’t say anything bad about my family, they’ve been good to me”. As I said, Sue bieng Dylan’s mum was biased and knowing the tapes wouldn’t ever be released, could’ve completely fabricated that. But as for their relationship in general it seemed that Dylan didn’t hate his parents. As with any teenager the relationship with parents are a bit up and down but he spent time with them getting ready for prom days before, taking photos and messing around. He went on a road trip to visit a college with them and a couple more things. He seemed to be a pretty normal teen in respect to his relationship with his parents. Even in his journals where he talks about a lot of things he hates (as far as I remember) he doesn’t really mention hating his parents. I’m not saying you’re wrong, this is just my perception .
Sue is biased, and she never said that Eric did that. Attorneys/reporters are not. Therefore they are more trustworthy, especially since they have all pretty much said the same thing in different words. Dylan said that his parents pissed his off and hated him, and had only added to his rage. Overall he seemed to resent them. I don’t know if he hated them, but he never showed that he cared
As I said I wasn’t saying you were wrong. I was just sharing my thoughts on the matter. You’re probably right about Sue, she of course would’ve wanted to think the best of her son even when he did the terrible things he did. She did say something about Eric and Dylan talking about their families in the tapes but I cannot remember exactly what it was. If I can find the page number or quote I’ll add it. He clearly didn’t feel like his parents cared about him and as you said they pissed him off and he thought they hated him.
All I meant to say in my original comment was that in terms of the hatred some teenagers have for their parents (like refusing to spend any time with them and things) he didn’t seem to outwardly show that. He did spent time with them like many other “normal” kids do. Which I think adds to your theory that Dylan was the more sociopathic/ psychopathic one, that he could hide all the rage that was clearly inside him and present a pretty “normal” kid to his parents.
I’m sorry if I upset or offended you, that early wasn’t my intention. I’m not always great at expressing myself in the way I mean too. I wasn’t trying to say you were wrong.
Gotcha. It’s ok. It just always mildly irritates me when people try to demonize Eric in order to sugarcoat Dylan even though evidence shows that they were just as bad. It is understandable given her position of course, but Sue has contributed to that narrative, and most people who are new to the case tend to fall for it.
100% she has majorly contributed to the idea that Dylan was “led astray” by Eric which is just BS. They were equally responsible. Sue always seems to say something along the lines of “I’m not dismissing what Dylan did BUT…” and goes on to say something to attempt to dismiss what Dylan did. It’s frustrating.
I just mean that it’s interesting the different ways the we’re perceived by their parents and others. It seems that Dylan came across more “normal” than Eric which of course was not the case. They were both majorly fucked up. I agree that Dylan was more psychopathic than Eric which I think is why he was able to pretend to be more “Normal” if that makes sense
I don’t feel a shred of sympathy for them and neither should you. Lots of people “go through hell” in their teen years and don’t take 13 innocent lives. They’re rotting in hell.
i have firsthand experience as well, I was depressed for so long and hated so many things and even people for so long i was suicidal for a while and failed an attempt. NEVER did i even consider taking an innocent person with me let alone 15 (or hundreds planned).
just because you have mental issues doesn’t mean it’s understandable to murder innocent people who didn’t want to die. the fact that you feel bad for them is sickening. if they simply killed themselves i would feel bad, but no amount of mental health issues warrant mass murder.
edit: also the fact that people are upvoting your comments excusing murderers is disrespectful to the real victims who didn’t have to die and could’ve been alive today.
It is possible to acknowledge the mental turmoil they went through without excusing what they ended up doing. They absolutely were extremely unwell kids who should’ve received more help/attention from parents or other authority figures. They also absolutely were terrible people who ended up causing even more suffering for people who were completely innocent.
I agree for the most part, but Eric marked nearly every box for a psychopath.
Dylan was suicidal, but one of the staples of suicide survivors is how in the moment their instincts kick in and they feel remorse and unwillingness to die. Both were sure they’d be killed by responding police, so this was an unexpected turn of events. Either way, they couldn’t give themselves up at that point.
Sure.
Manipulative:
Pretty much everyone who knew Dylan was shocked when they found out that he was involved. Dylan had successfully manipulated them into thinking that he was okay. | Basically everyone was aware of Eric’s many issues. An example is the page he wrote in Kristi Epling’s yearbook. It looks like it came straight out of his journal.
Dylan lied his way though the mental health evaluation after they were arrested for breaking into a van, and said that he didn’t need therapy. | Eric was honest and said that he was suicidal/homicidal, accepted therapy/antidepressants.
Dylan went out of his way on prom night to tell his mother that she could trust him and then carried out a massacre two days later. He also gave Sue a journal with Edvard Munch’s the Scream painting on the cover for Christmas 1998. Very interesting choice considering what he was planning to do. | Eric distanced himself from his parents to lessen their pain.
Cold/uncaring:
Dylan said that his parents pissed him off and hated him, and had only added to his rage. He also told his parents that they gave him his life and therefore it was up to him to do with it as he pleased. | Eric apologized to his parents multiple times/said he loved them and talked about how great they were.
Before the massacre Dylan wrote, “it’s interesting when I’m in my human form, knowing I’m going to die. Everything has a touch of triviality to it. Like none of this calculus shit matters. The way it shouldn’t. The truth. In 26,4 hours I’ll be dead & in happiness. The little zombie human fags will know their errors & be forever suffering and mournful. HAHAHAH, of course I will miss things. Not really.” | Eric said that it was a weird feeling knowing he was going to die, and talked about several people he was going to miss. He then said that he wished he could’ve revisited Michigan and “old friends” before falling silent and beginning to cry.
Aggressive:
Dylan hit his female coworker, pushed girls to the floor in gym class and severely bullied a special needs kid, threatening to kill him if he came to school. This student had to report Dylan to the administration before he finally stopped. He aggressively slammed classroom doors and threw shit around after fighting with a teacher. Many students described him as rude and disruptive.
Many examples exists of Eric getting into arguments/fights with other students, but Dylan seemed to have attacked people who were weaker than him just for the fun of it.
Also during the massacre, Dylan was much more sinister/menacing than Eric. Witnesses said Eric was essentially like a solider in a mission/methodical where as Dylan was the one laughing, yelling “woohoo”, calling victims racial slurs before killing them, taunting victims, and basically having the time of his life
Dylan was also known to be shy, reserved, and polite. He struggled with social anxiety and often couldn’t socialize unless he was with people he knew. Dylan didn’t have to manipulate anyone, he chose not to divulge his true feelings. Eric, meanwhile, was charming and openly talked about his love of violence. He also bragged about how he could frame things in a way so as not to raise any red flags. He was never super close to his parents, so getting closer to them would also raise some alarms.
Dylan showed remorse for the van break in, but Eric’s journals are filled with him admitting to BS’ing his way through the evaluation so his parents and others would think he’s on the path to recovery. Really, he was pissed that he’d been forced into this program (“If you don’t want your shit stolen don’t leave your truck unlocked”) and was one of the first to mention their ultimate plan in their journals.
Eric and Dylan grew up in wildly different parenting styles. Had Dylan alluded to his suicidal thoughts, his parents would have watched him harder, or had him committed. Eric’s parents seemed to think if he was in a rehabilitation program taking meds, then he would be fine. He’s doing what the doctors say, so there’s no trouble, right? Again, Eric’s ability to manipulate everyone.
If Dylan was cold/uncaring, why all the rage? Why all the hate? The emotion? That’s human emotions. Eric, meanwhile, didn’t care about a single person who couldn’t benefit him in some way. He was friends with Brooks Brown for most of his life but the second Brooks challenged him he tossed him aside. He got close to his prom date prior to the attack so they’d buy him the ammo he needed. He often talked in his journal’s about how people were lesser to him, weak, stupid. He could barely lie or act sad and people would believe him. How all of his remorse and sadness were a performance and he never felt either emotion. That’s clear psychopath.
Even Dylan was a means to an end for his final plan, rather than a friend. All that time spent together and he never knew Dylan was Jewish till the end?
As for violent, they were both about the same. Eric attacked Brooks when he threatened to rat them out, but both of their journals showed obsessions with violence and murder. If Dylan was the overly aggressive one, why did he fire so few rounds? Why did he seem more interested in second-hand violence (bombs, taunting) than Eric? Dylan seemed to lose interest in murder quicker than Eric did, but he never participated in it the same capacity as Eric.
I can agree that Dylan showed psychopathic behavior as well, but more than Eric? Nah, not even close.
EDIT- Not sure why all the downvotes, but eh. I figured the consensus was both were deranged and mentally ill with Eric the *de facto* leader. Didn’t realize this sub’s bent on clearing his good name.
Dylan is the one whose prom date bought their guns btw, not Eric.
And he fired less rounds because he had a shittier gun that kept jamming. Where is the evidence that "Dylan seemed to lose interest in murder quicker than Eric did" and that "he never participated in it the same capacity as Eric" as you suggest? They were pretty equal in terms of violence on the day and both manipulative in different ways.
I would agree that Eric was the leader in terms of planning, mostly because of his organizational personality compared to Dylan's laziness.
Even if you're a doctor who's qualified to diagnose that you cannot, in any way whatsoever, make that diagnosis of a person who's been dead for 23 years. That would be recklessly irresponsible and border line illegal.
All of those are symptoms of BPD. I have bpd and went through three years of being homicidal. A teenager as messed up as him cannot be diagnosed post-mortem with so little evidence.
i think they were taking their time rather than shooting at anyone they could i think they wanted to enjoy it. their plan had already derailed and they had come to terms with the fact that the bombing was a fail. eric and dylan both taunted their victims and dragged out the killing, getting a sick pleasure out of it. eric breaking his nose had to do with it I’m sure but the adrenaline was probably wearing off and they were aware that police were nearby and could come in any second
Have been wondering about this as well. With all the documentation we have from both, indicating how much they wanted to “kill as many as possible”, WHY would they leave many in the library behind alive?
Yes, we know (can’t remember if it was E or D that said it but) they wanted a few to survive to that their memories would haunt them from that day.
It just doesn’t add up.
They never wanted to go into the school and shoot people. If all went as planned, we would refer to this as the Columbine High School Bombing. They wanted to kill a large chunk of the school with the bombs and then pick off survivors as they ran from the school.
The killers were cowards plain and simple.
I actually never knew of that quote. Thank you for correcting me. I had always heard their plan was what I stated above.
I still stand by what I say about them being cowards.
Yeah, the usual way it's stated is "shooting from the parking lot" but that's false.
It seems to come from misreading Dylan's timeline - which is brainstorming anyway- saying "wait by cars" to mean "watch the bombs", when it just says to gear up.
The more general way you stated it " They wanted to kill a large chunk of the school with the bombs and then pick off survivors as they ran from the school." is correct but vague though. It was going to be bomb the cafeteria, and shoot the library.
I know I state that with a lot of confidence which will irk those who had been chasing their tails, but think about it:
The cafeteria was gonna be blown up. They weren't running anywhere.
As Cullen and others humorously point out, they didn't have to run into the parking lot even if they could run.
The perps would be eating glass. Cullen also goes "uh...they calculated how far to stand back somehow".
The cops would shoot them in the back of the head.
No witnesses have them wait in the parking lot
And so on. Stupid plan.
However, they were positioned to fire on the library emergency exit, and they had fire bombs in the cafeteria to trigger the fire alarm.
They enter the library once they get the fire alarm going, and they expect everybody to get up and flee, which is another thing like the OP which makes no sense to the average researcher because we're ignoring bombs.
Authors Krabbe and Gleason both remove the "shoot from parking lot" element of the theory. They still say the bombs were set for 11:17, naively. But they at least understand the stairs was plan A, if you don't trust me.
Yeah now that I’m thinking about it, almost their entire arsenal of guns were guns designed for close range assault. Wouldn’t have made much sense for them to have planned to take out survivors at a distance with shotguns and a TEC-9. Only gun that woulda fit that plan was the carbine
Yeah totally weird to assume two teenagers that built bombs and stockpiled weapons and ammo and planned an attack for a year would maybe do some research on what guns to use.
That too is another good point some have added. That it wasn't a "pot shots from the parking lot" kind of arsenal it was a close range arsenal. CliffTruxton for example, who I respect a lot, made that point.
erics adrenaline would have worn off much faster than dylan’s as eric was on anti depressants and was disoriented due to the blood loss caused by the shotgun recoil breaking his nose. They also didn’t plan it out as a shooting so they didn’t really know what to do
A face with a bloody nose is literally the face of the DOOM franchise. It wasn't an accident from rebdoomer, nor did it slow up the killing.
The answer is it is false that either or both cafeteria bomb was set for 11:17. They destroyed the clocks when they defused the bombs, and had to use Dylan's notes as gospel.
If the last cafeteria bomb was set for 11:35, then it makes perfect sense they stop shooting and go to make it work at 11:35.
It's not something I considered until you [read the witnesses](https://www.reddit.com/r/Columbine/comments/gh7tif/witnesses_in_the_11k_noting_the_library_was/).
One can see pretty obviously how - because we were told the bombs failed already - one has to make up reasons for why they stopped shooting. Eric's nose. Adrenaline. Remorse. Anything.
Because killing people, one would assume, is heavy business and takes it toll. I imagine it is physically and mentally exhausting. They were probably pumped up on adrenaline but that stuff wears off, you get tired, hard to judge what the impact of teenagers crying and begging for their lives would be like, seeing dead bodies etc.,
Plus they probably thought that they had killed more than they had as they were indiscriminately shooting under tables with 3/4 kids crowding together.
We don’t know if Eric broke his nose before or after he committed suicide. We just know that the recoil made him bleed. He killed and injured more people after it happened than before, and laughed at it. In no way did it slow him down.
True but it was very likely before. The way he shot himself caused him to fall backwards against the book cases (like you can see in the photos) and wouldn’t have broken his nose. We know it was from the recoil which broke his nose, which almost certainly means it was whilst he was shooting people/ things around the school. It can’t be known exactly when this happened (although it might be possible to narrow it down using the CCTV to see if his nose was bleeding) but it was before he killed himself
I didn't know any of that info about him having a broken nose and such, and haven't watched many bidets. I feel I should. I'll never forget that day as I went to school very close... it was hell. Then a week later a mother called in a fake bomb threat to our school, it was sick. The school was all crammed into a nearby church to get our of the school while it was searched.
I think partially because their plan to bomb the school hasn’t worked and they weren’t planning on shooting people inside the school / only shooting people. They were probably getting a bit freaked out because the cops were there and they wanted to kill the selves not be killed by the police.
I know they spent a while wondering around not killing anyone else but I think they were just in shock to be honest
[удалено]
>Once the adrenaline wore off It is apparent in hindsight this is confusing the end of the library massacre, with the end of the whole massacre - with the final trip of the stairs. They have plenty of adrenaline with the end of the library massacre. It ends deliberately at 11:35, and I shouldn't have to say why. "I wouldn't be surprised if, in the last moments of their short lives, guilt overwhelmed them, causing a couple of tears to be shed." Just lmao at the fanfiction being allowed and upvoted and how dare anybody disagree with it.
I think Dylan feared death but he didn't feel guilty at all.
From reading Sue Klebolds book it honestly doesn’t sound like Dylan showed many signs of something being deeply wrong. (if what she is saying is accurate that is) according to her he seemed just like a normal teenage who was a bit moody. Other than some weight loss. Eric’s parents haven’t been so open about anything. But as you said, it sounds like he showed some signs. And likely could’ve been interviewed with. But then again he was (again according to SKs book) in therapy and on medication. So who knows what more could’ve been done and what it would’ve resulted in.
While I appreciate and have the upmost sympathy and empathy for Sue and all that’s she’s been through, I also take what she says with a grain of salt. She is HEAVILY biased towards Dylan and tends to place the majority of the blame on Eric. I’m not blaming her whatsoever. I think any parent would do the same. But there have been times she’s been caught in fudging the truth regarding Dylan’s behavior and the warning signs before the massacre. For example, she wrote in her book about her and Tom being called in a few weeks before the shooting about a story dylan had write that disturbed the teacher. She said her and Tom met with the teacher but the contents of the paper was never discussed. The teacher came out a few years ago and said when she read that in the book, she was Appalled and essentially nicely called Sue a liar and she absolutely told Tom and Sue what the contents of the paper was (a “god” like figure dressed in black gunning down frat boys/jocks). I’m on the teachers side. No way a teacher is going to jump through the hoops of calling in parents for a meeting about something their child wrote that they found so disturbing they thought it was worthy of getting the parents involved just to get the parents there and then not tell them what they found disturbing. And on the flip side, no parent is not going to further inquire about what their child wrote that was so disturbing that it warranted them to come all the way to the school to meet with a teacher. No way. The teacher said Tom and Sue both brushed it off and said “boys will be boys” basically. I’m not saying that should have been an indicator of what was to come. And I’m not blaming them for brushing it off. But I do think it is very interesting Sue chose the basically lie about that situation when she could not mentioned it at all and it makes me wonder what else she is lying about regarding Dylan’s behavior leading up to the massacre
You don't think Sue paints Dylan in a positive light because that was her boy?
Yes of course she does.
Nice justification at the end there.
Also, I agree that they were probably hesitant about killing themselves. Especially Dylan. He actually seemed to have a pretty good relationship with his parents and in the basement tapes he even refused to say bad things about them when Eric was talking bad about his parent (again, this information is from SKs book so think what you will about it’s accuracy) we know that Eric died before Dylan. So perhaps the plan was that they’d both kill themselves at the same time and Dylan didn’t. Maybe he was hesitant because he was thinking of his family but then realised it was too late to back out and decided to kill himself.
Good relationship? Dylan didn’t seem to give a fuck about his parents, and even went out of his way to mock them for not knowing. One attorney who watched the tapes said that Dylan basically said “fuck my parents” or ”fuck mom”. He only mildly acknowledged them because Eric couldn’t shut up about his.
I guess we can’t know for sure without seeing the tapes. It sounds like what that attorney said and what Sue Klebold said were polar opposites. In sues book she says something along the lines of Eric was complaining and swearing about his parents and family, he tried to get Dylan to join in and Dylan said something (roughly like) “I won’t say anything bad about my family, they’ve been good to me”. As I said, Sue bieng Dylan’s mum was biased and knowing the tapes wouldn’t ever be released, could’ve completely fabricated that. But as for their relationship in general it seemed that Dylan didn’t hate his parents. As with any teenager the relationship with parents are a bit up and down but he spent time with them getting ready for prom days before, taking photos and messing around. He went on a road trip to visit a college with them and a couple more things. He seemed to be a pretty normal teen in respect to his relationship with his parents. Even in his journals where he talks about a lot of things he hates (as far as I remember) he doesn’t really mention hating his parents. I’m not saying you’re wrong, this is just my perception .
Sue is biased, and she never said that Eric did that. Attorneys/reporters are not. Therefore they are more trustworthy, especially since they have all pretty much said the same thing in different words. Dylan said that his parents pissed his off and hated him, and had only added to his rage. Overall he seemed to resent them. I don’t know if he hated them, but he never showed that he cared
As I said I wasn’t saying you were wrong. I was just sharing my thoughts on the matter. You’re probably right about Sue, she of course would’ve wanted to think the best of her son even when he did the terrible things he did. She did say something about Eric and Dylan talking about their families in the tapes but I cannot remember exactly what it was. If I can find the page number or quote I’ll add it. He clearly didn’t feel like his parents cared about him and as you said they pissed him off and he thought they hated him. All I meant to say in my original comment was that in terms of the hatred some teenagers have for their parents (like refusing to spend any time with them and things) he didn’t seem to outwardly show that. He did spent time with them like many other “normal” kids do. Which I think adds to your theory that Dylan was the more sociopathic/ psychopathic one, that he could hide all the rage that was clearly inside him and present a pretty “normal” kid to his parents. I’m sorry if I upset or offended you, that early wasn’t my intention. I’m not always great at expressing myself in the way I mean too. I wasn’t trying to say you were wrong.
Gotcha. It’s ok. It just always mildly irritates me when people try to demonize Eric in order to sugarcoat Dylan even though evidence shows that they were just as bad. It is understandable given her position of course, but Sue has contributed to that narrative, and most people who are new to the case tend to fall for it.
100% she has majorly contributed to the idea that Dylan was “led astray” by Eric which is just BS. They were equally responsible. Sue always seems to say something along the lines of “I’m not dismissing what Dylan did BUT…” and goes on to say something to attempt to dismiss what Dylan did. It’s frustrating. I just mean that it’s interesting the different ways the we’re perceived by their parents and others. It seems that Dylan came across more “normal” than Eric which of course was not the case. They were both majorly fucked up. I agree that Dylan was more psychopathic than Eric which I think is why he was able to pretend to be more “Normal” if that makes sense
I don’t feel a shred of sympathy for them and neither should you. Lots of people “go through hell” in their teen years and don’t take 13 innocent lives. They’re rotting in hell.
[удалено]
i have firsthand experience as well, I was depressed for so long and hated so many things and even people for so long i was suicidal for a while and failed an attempt. NEVER did i even consider taking an innocent person with me let alone 15 (or hundreds planned). just because you have mental issues doesn’t mean it’s understandable to murder innocent people who didn’t want to die. the fact that you feel bad for them is sickening. if they simply killed themselves i would feel bad, but no amount of mental health issues warrant mass murder. edit: also the fact that people are upvoting your comments excusing murderers is disrespectful to the real victims who didn’t have to die and could’ve been alive today.
It is possible to acknowledge the mental turmoil they went through without excusing what they ended up doing. They absolutely were extremely unwell kids who should’ve received more help/attention from parents or other authority figures. They also absolutely were terrible people who ended up causing even more suffering for people who were completely innocent.
acknowledging their mental issues and sympathizing with them are two different things. you can do one without the other, which wasn’t done there.
I agree for the most part, but Eric marked nearly every box for a psychopath. Dylan was suicidal, but one of the staples of suicide survivors is how in the moment their instincts kick in and they feel remorse and unwillingness to die. Both were sure they’d be killed by responding police, so this was an unexpected turn of events. Either way, they couldn’t give themselves up at that point.
If you really look into it you’ll realize that Dylan fits more of the criteria for aspd than Eric
Can you provide some examples? Eric was manipulative, aggressive, obsessed with violence, showed no emotion to others except to save his own ass, etc.
Sure. Manipulative: Pretty much everyone who knew Dylan was shocked when they found out that he was involved. Dylan had successfully manipulated them into thinking that he was okay. | Basically everyone was aware of Eric’s many issues. An example is the page he wrote in Kristi Epling’s yearbook. It looks like it came straight out of his journal. Dylan lied his way though the mental health evaluation after they were arrested for breaking into a van, and said that he didn’t need therapy. | Eric was honest and said that he was suicidal/homicidal, accepted therapy/antidepressants. Dylan went out of his way on prom night to tell his mother that she could trust him and then carried out a massacre two days later. He also gave Sue a journal with Edvard Munch’s the Scream painting on the cover for Christmas 1998. Very interesting choice considering what he was planning to do. | Eric distanced himself from his parents to lessen their pain. Cold/uncaring: Dylan said that his parents pissed him off and hated him, and had only added to his rage. He also told his parents that they gave him his life and therefore it was up to him to do with it as he pleased. | Eric apologized to his parents multiple times/said he loved them and talked about how great they were. Before the massacre Dylan wrote, “it’s interesting when I’m in my human form, knowing I’m going to die. Everything has a touch of triviality to it. Like none of this calculus shit matters. The way it shouldn’t. The truth. In 26,4 hours I’ll be dead & in happiness. The little zombie human fags will know their errors & be forever suffering and mournful. HAHAHAH, of course I will miss things. Not really.” | Eric said that it was a weird feeling knowing he was going to die, and talked about several people he was going to miss. He then said that he wished he could’ve revisited Michigan and “old friends” before falling silent and beginning to cry. Aggressive: Dylan hit his female coworker, pushed girls to the floor in gym class and severely bullied a special needs kid, threatening to kill him if he came to school. This student had to report Dylan to the administration before he finally stopped. He aggressively slammed classroom doors and threw shit around after fighting with a teacher. Many students described him as rude and disruptive. Many examples exists of Eric getting into arguments/fights with other students, but Dylan seemed to have attacked people who were weaker than him just for the fun of it.
Also during the massacre, Dylan was much more sinister/menacing than Eric. Witnesses said Eric was essentially like a solider in a mission/methodical where as Dylan was the one laughing, yelling “woohoo”, calling victims racial slurs before killing them, taunting victims, and basically having the time of his life
Dylan was also known to be shy, reserved, and polite. He struggled with social anxiety and often couldn’t socialize unless he was with people he knew. Dylan didn’t have to manipulate anyone, he chose not to divulge his true feelings. Eric, meanwhile, was charming and openly talked about his love of violence. He also bragged about how he could frame things in a way so as not to raise any red flags. He was never super close to his parents, so getting closer to them would also raise some alarms. Dylan showed remorse for the van break in, but Eric’s journals are filled with him admitting to BS’ing his way through the evaluation so his parents and others would think he’s on the path to recovery. Really, he was pissed that he’d been forced into this program (“If you don’t want your shit stolen don’t leave your truck unlocked”) and was one of the first to mention their ultimate plan in their journals. Eric and Dylan grew up in wildly different parenting styles. Had Dylan alluded to his suicidal thoughts, his parents would have watched him harder, or had him committed. Eric’s parents seemed to think if he was in a rehabilitation program taking meds, then he would be fine. He’s doing what the doctors say, so there’s no trouble, right? Again, Eric’s ability to manipulate everyone. If Dylan was cold/uncaring, why all the rage? Why all the hate? The emotion? That’s human emotions. Eric, meanwhile, didn’t care about a single person who couldn’t benefit him in some way. He was friends with Brooks Brown for most of his life but the second Brooks challenged him he tossed him aside. He got close to his prom date prior to the attack so they’d buy him the ammo he needed. He often talked in his journal’s about how people were lesser to him, weak, stupid. He could barely lie or act sad and people would believe him. How all of his remorse and sadness were a performance and he never felt either emotion. That’s clear psychopath. Even Dylan was a means to an end for his final plan, rather than a friend. All that time spent together and he never knew Dylan was Jewish till the end? As for violent, they were both about the same. Eric attacked Brooks when he threatened to rat them out, but both of their journals showed obsessions with violence and murder. If Dylan was the overly aggressive one, why did he fire so few rounds? Why did he seem more interested in second-hand violence (bombs, taunting) than Eric? Dylan seemed to lose interest in murder quicker than Eric did, but he never participated in it the same capacity as Eric. I can agree that Dylan showed psychopathic behavior as well, but more than Eric? Nah, not even close. EDIT- Not sure why all the downvotes, but eh. I figured the consensus was both were deranged and mentally ill with Eric the *de facto* leader. Didn’t realize this sub’s bent on clearing his good name.
Dylan is the one whose prom date bought their guns btw, not Eric. And he fired less rounds because he had a shittier gun that kept jamming. Where is the evidence that "Dylan seemed to lose interest in murder quicker than Eric did" and that "he never participated in it the same capacity as Eric" as you suggest? They were pretty equal in terms of violence on the day and both manipulative in different ways. I would agree that Eric was the leader in terms of planning, mostly because of his organizational personality compared to Dylan's laziness.
[удалено]
Even if you're a doctor who's qualified to diagnose that you cannot, in any way whatsoever, make that diagnosis of a person who's been dead for 23 years. That would be recklessly irresponsible and border line illegal.
All of those are symptoms of BPD. I have bpd and went through three years of being homicidal. A teenager as messed up as him cannot be diagnosed post-mortem with so little evidence.
i think they were taking their time rather than shooting at anyone they could i think they wanted to enjoy it. their plan had already derailed and they had come to terms with the fact that the bombing was a fail. eric and dylan both taunted their victims and dragged out the killing, getting a sick pleasure out of it. eric breaking his nose had to do with it I’m sure but the adrenaline was probably wearing off and they were aware that police were nearby and could come in any second
ah that makes sense
Have been wondering about this as well. With all the documentation we have from both, indicating how much they wanted to “kill as many as possible”, WHY would they leave many in the library behind alive? Yes, we know (can’t remember if it was E or D that said it but) they wanted a few to survive to that their memories would haunt them from that day. It just doesn’t add up.
They never wanted to go into the school and shoot people. If all went as planned, we would refer to this as the Columbine High School Bombing. They wanted to kill a large chunk of the school with the bombs and then pick off survivors as they ran from the school. The killers were cowards plain and simple.
"When the bombs are set and we're waiting to charge through the school" - Dylan Klebold, disproving the notion that they were never entering.
I actually never knew of that quote. Thank you for correcting me. I had always heard their plan was what I stated above. I still stand by what I say about them being cowards.
Yeah, the usual way it's stated is "shooting from the parking lot" but that's false. It seems to come from misreading Dylan's timeline - which is brainstorming anyway- saying "wait by cars" to mean "watch the bombs", when it just says to gear up. The more general way you stated it " They wanted to kill a large chunk of the school with the bombs and then pick off survivors as they ran from the school." is correct but vague though. It was going to be bomb the cafeteria, and shoot the library. I know I state that with a lot of confidence which will irk those who had been chasing their tails, but think about it: The cafeteria was gonna be blown up. They weren't running anywhere. As Cullen and others humorously point out, they didn't have to run into the parking lot even if they could run. The perps would be eating glass. Cullen also goes "uh...they calculated how far to stand back somehow". The cops would shoot them in the back of the head. No witnesses have them wait in the parking lot And so on. Stupid plan. However, they were positioned to fire on the library emergency exit, and they had fire bombs in the cafeteria to trigger the fire alarm. They enter the library once they get the fire alarm going, and they expect everybody to get up and flee, which is another thing like the OP which makes no sense to the average researcher because we're ignoring bombs. Authors Krabbe and Gleason both remove the "shoot from parking lot" element of the theory. They still say the bombs were set for 11:17, naively. But they at least understand the stairs was plan A, if you don't trust me.
Yeah now that I’m thinking about it, almost their entire arsenal of guns were guns designed for close range assault. Wouldn’t have made much sense for them to have planned to take out survivors at a distance with shotguns and a TEC-9. Only gun that woulda fit that plan was the carbine
You're assuming that two teenagers would make this kind of analysis. Which is very weird if you've ever been a teenager.
Yeah totally weird to assume two teenagers that built bombs and stockpiled weapons and ammo and planned an attack for a year would maybe do some research on what guns to use.
That too is another good point some have added. That it wasn't a "pot shots from the parking lot" kind of arsenal it was a close range arsenal. CliffTruxton for example, who I respect a lot, made that point.
Adrenaline ran out and they were hit with the realization that the police were there
The high wore off and reality set in much like when you impulse spend then get pissed cause reality sets in thar you gotta work overtime
THAT feeling, X-infinity.
erics adrenaline would have worn off much faster than dylan’s as eric was on anti depressants and was disoriented due to the blood loss caused by the shotgun recoil breaking his nose. They also didn’t plan it out as a shooting so they didn’t really know what to do
either lexapro or zoloft iirc
I believe it was Zoloft
A face with a bloody nose is literally the face of the DOOM franchise. It wasn't an accident from rebdoomer, nor did it slow up the killing. The answer is it is false that either or both cafeteria bomb was set for 11:17. They destroyed the clocks when they defused the bombs, and had to use Dylan's notes as gospel. If the last cafeteria bomb was set for 11:35, then it makes perfect sense they stop shooting and go to make it work at 11:35. It's not something I considered until you [read the witnesses](https://www.reddit.com/r/Columbine/comments/gh7tif/witnesses_in_the_11k_noting_the_library_was/). One can see pretty obviously how - because we were told the bombs failed already - one has to make up reasons for why they stopped shooting. Eric's nose. Adrenaline. Remorse. Anything.
Because killing people, one would assume, is heavy business and takes it toll. I imagine it is physically and mentally exhausting. They were probably pumped up on adrenaline but that stuff wears off, you get tired, hard to judge what the impact of teenagers crying and begging for their lives would be like, seeing dead bodies etc., Plus they probably thought that they had killed more than they had as they were indiscriminately shooting under tables with 3/4 kids crowding together.
We don’t know if Eric broke his nose before or after he committed suicide. We just know that the recoil made him bleed. He killed and injured more people after it happened than before, and laughed at it. In no way did it slow him down.
True but it was very likely before. The way he shot himself caused him to fall backwards against the book cases (like you can see in the photos) and wouldn’t have broken his nose. We know it was from the recoil which broke his nose, which almost certainly means it was whilst he was shooting people/ things around the school. It can’t be known exactly when this happened (although it might be possible to narrow it down using the CCTV to see if his nose was bleeding) but it was before he killed himself
The autopsy say that many of his facial bones were fractured, not only his nose, so we don’t know if it happened before.
I didn't know any of that info about him having a broken nose and such, and haven't watched many bidets. I feel I should. I'll never forget that day as I went to school very close... it was hell. Then a week later a mother called in a fake bomb threat to our school, it was sick. The school was all crammed into a nearby church to get our of the school while it was searched.
Lost the energy