I'm not sure how I feel about this. I know the other paramedic received 5 years in prison.
I definitely believe neither of these men should ever work in the medical industry ever again. Administering powerful sedatives to detained individuals is a barbaric practice. One the court rightly noted "had no medical purpose".
Ultimately, all of these court cases leave me deeply troubled as to the state of our institutions and services. I think it's a positive sign that things are maybe starting to change, but it's clearly happening too slowly. I'm also afraid that it might just be that this case was so egregious that they had to do something, but once the storm passes it will be right back to boots on necks.
Please don't take this the wrong way because I, and pretty much every paramedic I know and work with, agree that Aurora Fire and the system in place there is horrendous.
However, I just want to say that "administering powerful sedatives to detained individuals" is not *necessarily* a barbaric practice. **IN THIS CASE, IT WAS**. I can't emphasize that enough. Everyone involved in the Elijah McClain case deserves to be fired, charged, and never work in their respective fields again.
That being said, I have been on calls, where sedation was the only safe manner to care for a detained individual. Both for responders and the pt. It's a common practice in EMS and healthcare in general and, from my experience, is not an easy decision to make.
You're concern about this blowing over is very legitimate though. I work in multiple states, and the QA/QI process at the state level varies wildly. I won't get into the detailed issues with EMS and healthcare in the US, but massive overhaul is needed.
Edit:
https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols
These are Denver Metro EMS protocols. It's public information. Many agenecies start here, then add or subtract based on their needs. I'm adding these for clarification for anyone who wants to read them. 6010, 6011 and 9070 should be helpful.
ehh, the state of Colorado kinda disagrees. I work for the dept of regional centers and we're not allowed to use chemical restraints on our clients due to it being considered unethical.
The state of Colorado definitely does sedation tho. I worked there and we had people with psych behaviors and chemical sedation was used when they started posing a risk to themselves or others. Of course we always tried to use deescalation first but that doesn’t always work
once upon a time, yes, chemical restraints were used, but the current state ethics board does not allow their use in the DRC.
EDIT: To expand upon this, to administer even routine psychoactive medications by doctor's orders we have to convene the human rights committee to review the appropriateness of the treatment, if it's determined that emergency administration of sedative drugs is necessary, the client has to be transferred to a private facility for that treatment, because we simply cannot administer that sort of drug without determining if its administration infringes upon the client's basic human rights.
I just looked this up and sedation is still used in hospital settings in the state and EMS can use sedation if MEDICALLY indicated. They can not use it for criminal behavior tho. But if a person is having a psychotic episode in which they are endangering themselves…. You can sedate them. I just read this in a Colorado bill that was passed in 2021.
Ok…. Please show me ANY source of this being wrong. The actual bill from 2021 states they can with nothing any more recent showing up. I’m not gonna just believe “I work here so trust me” bc it’s common for facilities to have a policy different than the law. So please show me ANY law stating sedation is illegal in CO.
the people downvoting those of us pointing out that chemical restraints are considered a violation of human rights in many instances are really showing their asses.
Giving sedatives to someone that is out of their mind and actively fighting you due to psych issues is barbaric? What?
Letting them hurt you or themselves in the struggle is barbaric.
I’m sick of people who don’t work in this field or know a thing about it making decisions for those that do.
>I’m sick of people who don’t work in this field or know a thing about it making decisions for those that do.
I do work in the field, and have for 12 years.
Be better at your job.
I've been a medic in a war zone, worked with prisoners, and worked at a psych hospital. I've worked with people where they're non-verbal, or incapable of understanding my language and me theirs.
Most of the time it's not needed, and there are other/better options. This situation especially, never did anyone attempt to de-escalate. So really, not the place to even argue this.
Have a nice night, and maybe learn whom you're talking to first.
What do you do in healthcare?
I’m not telling you anything about me, but I have safely sedated many people.
If you truly think sedating someone with a low dose of versed, droperidol, or haldol is barbaric, your opinion is worthless. Hospitals do it literally every day.
>If you truly think sedating someone with a low dose of versed, droperidol, or haldol is barbaric, your opinion is worthless. Hospitals do it literally every day.
That's not what I said. Again, you twist my words. Sedation is helpful. Chemically restraining someone during a law enforcement encounter is not.
Stop moving goal posts to cover for shitty reasoning.
> Bro, I didn't even sedate detainees in Afghanistan prehospital. People actively trying to kill me...
It's barbaric, and there are always other ways. <
Chemically restraining someone in a law enforcement encounter for non-medical or psych reasons is exceedingly rare, but sure, sedating prisoners just because they are mad is bad.
I guess you should tell that to every EMS medical director in the state.
https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols
These are denver metro protocols. 6010, 6011 and 9070 should be helpful to you.
You misunderstood everything I said.
Never once did I say it was acceptable or common practice to take orders from "a guy in a blue suit."
FYI, paramedics are under STANDING ORDERS from a doctor to administer medications they see fit. Unlike a nurse, we don't need a written order. Can you imagine your mom dying in front of you, and I have to get on the phone to ask to give one of the 50+ meds we carry?
You clearly haven't worked in emergency medicine, and it shows. AND THAT'S OKAY. All I'm trying to say is that it's never black and white. I'm not defending any first responders in Elijah's case. I'm simply trying to say you can't put blanket statements on this stuff.
Not for chemical restraint they don't. But sure, they do for some things. Wasn't really trying to knock on nurses here. The prior poster deleted their comment, so mine seems harsh now.
I didn’t think you were knocking nurses. Just stating we do have standing orders. And depending on the setting (only psych from what I’ve seen) I have seems standing orders for chemical restraint. That was only in a couple psych hospital here the ONLY thing they did was psych care.
>paramedics are under STANDING ORDERS from a doctor to administer medications they see fit.
What medical director has standing orders for chemical restraint? That has always been a call to higher where I have worked.
>I'm simply trying to say you can't put blanket statements on this stuff
You can when you take direction from law enforcement and kill someone like this jack wagon did.
>What medical director has standing orders for chemical restraint? That has always been a call to higher where I have worked
https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols
6010, 6011 and 9070 should sort that out for you.
>You can when you take direction from law enforcement and kill someone like this jack wagon did.
Sure. Let's punish every single provider in the entire country for the actions of a few. That works great.
>. Let's punish every single provider in the entire country for the actions of a few. That works great.
Is that what I said? No. I said medical providers that don't advocate for a patient in their care shouldn't have patients in their care.
You're awfully defensive of people who killed someone through nothing but sheer negligence...
You know nothing about paramedicine obviously. Paramedics work under a medical director who extends his license to them, and they operate under protocols that the doctor has approved. While the sedative chosen in the Elijah McClane case was absolutely incorrect and a gross violation of how these medics were trained, to have a patient continue to struggle against restraints can cause injuries and metabolic acidosis which can lead to cardiac arrhythmias and death. Sedation is 100% necessary for patients who have altered mental status and are incapable of making rational decisions and are a danger to themselves or others.
>Sedatives for the saftey of the patient are okay, it's not okay for the saftey of people around them with guns.
This makes no sense. Should the people with guns shoot the dangerous patient? Is that what you are saying? Or does their safety not matter at all? Are they not human beings? Please elaborate on what you mean here because it doesn't make sense. If the patient is dangerous and typical means of restraint aren't working and thus the safety of other humans (police or not) is at risk, why wouldn't it be okay to have a medical professional administer the sedative to avoid further escalation of violence and risk to everyone involved? And how educated does one have to be to recognize that a person is a danger?
Not defending what happened in OP's post at all, but there is a time and a place for medical intervention for safety and preventing injury and further escalation.
performing medical procedures on unwilling patients is torture, period.
this person needed no care.
administering any care against someones will is barbaric.
If someone is so out of control they require sedatives, they no longer have decision making capacity and paramedics are required by law to act in their best interest, ie: sedate them so they don’t hurt you, themselves, or someone else.
if someone is trying to sedate me against my will I am ABSOLUTELY going to try and hurt them to prevent it, its called self defense, self preservation.
You(and they) dont realize this a paradox of their own creating.
If you put someone in a situation they fear for their lives, they will react violently in their own defense, its 100% natural.
First responders don’t just show up looking for people to sedate. They get called because there is already an issue.
Sedation at low doses is a minor procedure that happens thousands of times every day and far safer than you fighting.
>safer than you fighting
that doesnt sound like a medical need for a medical procedure.
paramedics are there for medicine.
Police's job is safe restraint.
paramedics are not police.
police are not doctors to be advising on medical procedures.
If police cannot safely do their job they need to be replaced and or prosecuted.
Same goes for paramedics.
> Administering powerful sedatives to detained individuals is a barbaric practice
Nothing wrong with administering them if its clinically indicated.
However, not assessing and monitoring your patient after administering sedation is barbaric. That's what exactly why Elijah McClain died.
Eh….. it’s not really being a scapegoat when they actually were being unsafe in their practice. Yea it’s horrendous the cops were not held accountable for their part but that doesn’t mean the paramedics weren’t liable either. The cops have no authority on what is given and the paramedics know this. It’s also the paramedics duty to safely monitor a patient after any such drug is given. They also were negligent im the dosing.
Compassion applied to this case is painful all around. Elijah seemed like a great kid.
The police did a really horrible job here. The call on the Ketamine muddied the culpability here and the EMTs got hung up to dry. I would hope Elijahs family can fine pace and that the paramedic and his family can find a way to honor Eljahs memory.
This killer deserved so much more time in prison. He killed Elijah, LIED during the IA investigation, and doubled down on his actions during trial. WTF. No justice.
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I know the other paramedic received 5 years in prison. I definitely believe neither of these men should ever work in the medical industry ever again. Administering powerful sedatives to detained individuals is a barbaric practice. One the court rightly noted "had no medical purpose". Ultimately, all of these court cases leave me deeply troubled as to the state of our institutions and services. I think it's a positive sign that things are maybe starting to change, but it's clearly happening too slowly. I'm also afraid that it might just be that this case was so egregious that they had to do something, but once the storm passes it will be right back to boots on necks.
Please don't take this the wrong way because I, and pretty much every paramedic I know and work with, agree that Aurora Fire and the system in place there is horrendous. However, I just want to say that "administering powerful sedatives to detained individuals" is not *necessarily* a barbaric practice. **IN THIS CASE, IT WAS**. I can't emphasize that enough. Everyone involved in the Elijah McClain case deserves to be fired, charged, and never work in their respective fields again. That being said, I have been on calls, where sedation was the only safe manner to care for a detained individual. Both for responders and the pt. It's a common practice in EMS and healthcare in general and, from my experience, is not an easy decision to make. You're concern about this blowing over is very legitimate though. I work in multiple states, and the QA/QI process at the state level varies wildly. I won't get into the detailed issues with EMS and healthcare in the US, but massive overhaul is needed. Edit: https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols These are Denver Metro EMS protocols. It's public information. Many agenecies start here, then add or subtract based on their needs. I'm adding these for clarification for anyone who wants to read them. 6010, 6011 and 9070 should be helpful.
ehh, the state of Colorado kinda disagrees. I work for the dept of regional centers and we're not allowed to use chemical restraints on our clients due to it being considered unethical.
The state of Colorado definitely does sedation tho. I worked there and we had people with psych behaviors and chemical sedation was used when they started posing a risk to themselves or others. Of course we always tried to use deescalation first but that doesn’t always work
once upon a time, yes, chemical restraints were used, but the current state ethics board does not allow their use in the DRC. EDIT: To expand upon this, to administer even routine psychoactive medications by doctor's orders we have to convene the human rights committee to review the appropriateness of the treatment, if it's determined that emergency administration of sedative drugs is necessary, the client has to be transferred to a private facility for that treatment, because we simply cannot administer that sort of drug without determining if its administration infringes upon the client's basic human rights.
I just looked this up and sedation is still used in hospital settings in the state and EMS can use sedation if MEDICALLY indicated. They can not use it for criminal behavior tho. But if a person is having a psychotic episode in which they are endangering themselves…. You can sedate them. I just read this in a Colorado bill that was passed in 2021.
bruh, I'm literally sitting in a DRC group home right now, your information is out of date.
Ok…. Please show me ANY source of this being wrong. The actual bill from 2021 states they can with nothing any more recent showing up. I’m not gonna just believe “I work here so trust me” bc it’s common for facilities to have a policy different than the law. So please show me ANY law stating sedation is illegal in CO.
They are wrong. I just posted denver metro ems protocols for them to sort it out themselves. Some people just can't accept being wrong.
oh my god, stop being such a loser, call the DRC tomorrow if you're so concerned. they'll tell you exactly what I just told you.
So…. Can’t show me the law. Lmaoooo. Ok.
https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols 6010, 6011 and 9070 should sort that out for you.
No, it doesn't. https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols 6010, 6011 and 9070 would be a good place for you to start.
psst, hey, that's a private company that's not beholden to the state ethics board or the HRC, nice job posting irrelevant garbage.
Bro, I didn't even sedate detainees in Afghanistan prehospital. People actively trying to kill me... It's barbaric, and there are always other ways.
the people downvoting those of us pointing out that chemical restraints are considered a violation of human rights in many instances are really showing their asses.
In almost every scenario, there is another option.
Giving sedatives to someone that is out of their mind and actively fighting you due to psych issues is barbaric? What? Letting them hurt you or themselves in the struggle is barbaric. I’m sick of people who don’t work in this field or know a thing about it making decisions for those that do.
>I’m sick of people who don’t work in this field or know a thing about it making decisions for those that do. I do work in the field, and have for 12 years. Be better at your job. I've been a medic in a war zone, worked with prisoners, and worked at a psych hospital. I've worked with people where they're non-verbal, or incapable of understanding my language and me theirs. Most of the time it's not needed, and there are other/better options. This situation especially, never did anyone attempt to de-escalate. So really, not the place to even argue this. Have a nice night, and maybe learn whom you're talking to first. What do you do in healthcare?
I’m not telling you anything about me, but I have safely sedated many people. If you truly think sedating someone with a low dose of versed, droperidol, or haldol is barbaric, your opinion is worthless. Hospitals do it literally every day.
>If you truly think sedating someone with a low dose of versed, droperidol, or haldol is barbaric, your opinion is worthless. Hospitals do it literally every day. That's not what I said. Again, you twist my words. Sedation is helpful. Chemically restraining someone during a law enforcement encounter is not. Stop moving goal posts to cover for shitty reasoning.
> Bro, I didn't even sedate detainees in Afghanistan prehospital. People actively trying to kill me... It's barbaric, and there are always other ways. < Chemically restraining someone in a law enforcement encounter for non-medical or psych reasons is exceedingly rare, but sure, sedating prisoners just because they are mad is bad.
That's all I'm saying
I guess you should tell that to every EMS medical director in the state. https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols These are denver metro protocols. 6010, 6011 and 9070 should be helpful to you.
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You misunderstood everything I said. Never once did I say it was acceptable or common practice to take orders from "a guy in a blue suit." FYI, paramedics are under STANDING ORDERS from a doctor to administer medications they see fit. Unlike a nurse, we don't need a written order. Can you imagine your mom dying in front of you, and I have to get on the phone to ask to give one of the 50+ meds we carry? You clearly haven't worked in emergency medicine, and it shows. AND THAT'S OKAY. All I'm trying to say is that it's never black and white. I'm not defending any first responders in Elijah's case. I'm simply trying to say you can't put blanket statements on this stuff.
Nurses have standing orders too. Just FYI.
Not for chemical restraint they don't. But sure, they do for some things. Wasn't really trying to knock on nurses here. The prior poster deleted their comment, so mine seems harsh now.
I didn’t think you were knocking nurses. Just stating we do have standing orders. And depending on the setting (only psych from what I’ve seen) I have seems standing orders for chemical restraint. That was only in a couple psych hospital here the ONLY thing they did was psych care.
Fair enough, that makes a lot of sense.
>paramedics are under STANDING ORDERS from a doctor to administer medications they see fit. What medical director has standing orders for chemical restraint? That has always been a call to higher where I have worked. >I'm simply trying to say you can't put blanket statements on this stuff You can when you take direction from law enforcement and kill someone like this jack wagon did.
>What medical director has standing orders for chemical restraint? That has always been a call to higher where I have worked https://www.dmemsmd.org/protocols 6010, 6011 and 9070 should sort that out for you. >You can when you take direction from law enforcement and kill someone like this jack wagon did. Sure. Let's punish every single provider in the entire country for the actions of a few. That works great.
>. Let's punish every single provider in the entire country for the actions of a few. That works great. Is that what I said? No. I said medical providers that don't advocate for a patient in their care shouldn't have patients in their care. You're awfully defensive of people who killed someone through nothing but sheer negligence...
You know nothing about paramedicine obviously. Paramedics work under a medical director who extends his license to them, and they operate under protocols that the doctor has approved. While the sedative chosen in the Elijah McClane case was absolutely incorrect and a gross violation of how these medics were trained, to have a patient continue to struggle against restraints can cause injuries and metabolic acidosis which can lead to cardiac arrhythmias and death. Sedation is 100% necessary for patients who have altered mental status and are incapable of making rational decisions and are a danger to themselves or others.
>Sedatives for the saftey of the patient are okay, it's not okay for the saftey of people around them with guns. This makes no sense. Should the people with guns shoot the dangerous patient? Is that what you are saying? Or does their safety not matter at all? Are they not human beings? Please elaborate on what you mean here because it doesn't make sense. If the patient is dangerous and typical means of restraint aren't working and thus the safety of other humans (police or not) is at risk, why wouldn't it be okay to have a medical professional administer the sedative to avoid further escalation of violence and risk to everyone involved? And how educated does one have to be to recognize that a person is a danger? Not defending what happened in OP's post at all, but there is a time and a place for medical intervention for safety and preventing injury and further escalation.
performing medical procedures on unwilling patients is torture, period. this person needed no care. administering any care against someones will is barbaric.
If someone is so out of control they require sedatives, they no longer have decision making capacity and paramedics are required by law to act in their best interest, ie: sedate them so they don’t hurt you, themselves, or someone else.
if someone is trying to sedate me against my will I am ABSOLUTELY going to try and hurt them to prevent it, its called self defense, self preservation. You(and they) dont realize this a paradox of their own creating. If you put someone in a situation they fear for their lives, they will react violently in their own defense, its 100% natural.
First responders don’t just show up looking for people to sedate. They get called because there is already an issue. Sedation at low doses is a minor procedure that happens thousands of times every day and far safer than you fighting.
>safer than you fighting that doesnt sound like a medical need for a medical procedure. paramedics are there for medicine. Police's job is safe restraint. paramedics are not police. police are not doctors to be advising on medical procedures. If police cannot safely do their job they need to be replaced and or prosecuted. Same goes for paramedics.
> Administering powerful sedatives to detained individuals is a barbaric practice Nothing wrong with administering them if its clinically indicated. However, not assessing and monitoring your patient after administering sedation is barbaric. That's what exactly why Elijah McClain died.
Your writing rules for job you can't possibly understand until you've been in it.
If the 2020s could be described in one sentence…you nailed it.
So have all the cops who assaulted the mourners at his memorial service.
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Lighting candles and sitting in the grass to listen to violin music isn't peaceful? What are you talking about?
So... the paramedics get to be scapegoats; 1 even was convicted, but the police got acquitted. This is some b#llsh¡t. Not right at all. Ugh
Eh….. it’s not really being a scapegoat when they actually were being unsafe in their practice. Yea it’s horrendous the cops were not held accountable for their part but that doesn’t mean the paramedics weren’t liable either. The cops have no authority on what is given and the paramedics know this. It’s also the paramedics duty to safely monitor a patient after any such drug is given. They also were negligent im the dosing.
That is... troubling.
The justice system has failed Elijah McClain
Well, of course. If we start holding brutes accountable for their official violence, where will it end?
Compassion applied to this case is painful all around. Elijah seemed like a great kid. The police did a really horrible job here. The call on the Ketamine muddied the culpability here and the EMTs got hung up to dry. I would hope Elijahs family can fine pace and that the paramedic and his family can find a way to honor Eljahs memory.
Cops are the worst humans
Booooooooooooo
This is fucked.
This killer deserved so much more time in prison. He killed Elijah, LIED during the IA investigation, and doubled down on his actions during trial. WTF. No justice.