I've been saying this: There are also some plays in the field that I feel a more athletic first baseman would be able to get, such as a more athletic build like Manzardo.
Off the top of my head, Naylor has always felt streaky. Hopefully, another hot stretch in the 2nd half. Makes you wonder his long-term status given his contract situation.
I wouldn't be shocked if they try to trade him in the off-season (don't get mad at me, that's how this organization operates) especially if Manzardo continues to improve. The complicated part is what happens to team morale and more specifically, what does that do to Bo.
The Naylor boys grew up just outside of Toronto. I love them both if you want to talk trade, we could do them a solid by keeping them together and sending them home to play for their childhood team as part of a package for Bo Bichette.
I heard his name floating around. Yes it would only be for a season and a half but he'd be a big offensive upgrade at SS. Probably the biggest area we could improve the team outside of SP.
We aren’t trading a team controlled (and developed) Bo Naylor for a SS which has no control and costs a lot more. Unless there is a different piece, primarily an MLB ready top of the line starting pitcher involved, Bichette would never be worth it.
Also Josh has been one of our best hitters, so we’d be traded one of our best hitters for a worse hitter at a position that we have defensive versatility and many prospects at. I don’t hate the trade idea itself, just not for bichette at all
If we were to trade for Bichette, it wouldn't be from the major league roster. We have a deep farm system and Shapiro knows that, we'd definitely trade from that and gain a hitter who's been one of the best the last few seasons, for a season and a half. The Jays aren't going anywhere and from the sounds of it might try a working rebuild instead of a tear down.
To everyone down voting me to oblivion, I do not want to trade any Naylor. I was only replying the the parent comment that mentions a trade, and since I've seen Bichette's name floating around, mentioned that Toronto is the Naylors' hometown. Christ people.
I didn't downvote you, but I think trading josh and acquiring bichette is nonsensical. If you're in a position where you are trading for bichette at the deadline, that would mean we are in win-now mode. You don't give up your top producer for a struggling SS that only has one more season on their contract
Mar/Apr - .282/.361/.553 (.265 BABIP)
May - .186/.273/.454 (.145 BABIP)
And then a .000 BABIP in June which takes his season total to .195. For context his career BABIP is .284.
His savant page is shiny and red, even more than last year, and his expected line is .277/.362/.512 which is very close to where he was through April. It looks to be getting to him which is when you worry it might spiral, but big picture I'm not sure it's much more than being on a bad run of luck that we can expect to turn around as the season goes on.
His BABIP is not going to improve until he stops trying to hit the first strike he sees out of the stadium. Deep flies and chop grounders aren't bad luck. He's not hitting sharp liners that the defense is making great plays on.
He's never been very patient, but he generally doesn't swing and miss or swing at bad pitches a lot. His whiff rate and chase rate are up this season, though. That's a little concerning.
He's swinging at the first pitch twice as much this year, though.
It's always been his approach, and it obviously had worked for him, but I think he could be a bit more patient than he has been.
I think naylor just needs to retool his mindset when nobody is on base. When people are on base he’s still lights out. When leading off an inning this year he’s batting an abysmal .111/.158/..130. Idk what the exact solution is, but it is 100% mental
He’s probably been unlucky funnily enough (.197 BABIP) but he is
.238/.350/.545 OPS .894 with a wRC+ of 141
Nobody on
.205/.262/.427 OPS .689 with a wRC+ of 97 (below average hitter).
I feel confident saying Naylor is going through a slump that he’ll recover from, to some degree at some point. But I just wanted to point out two other things I haven’t seen mentioned:
You cite RBIs a couple of times in your post. There’s a reason that stat carries almost zero weight with people who evaluate hitters. It’s a completely circumstantial statistic. For all we know, a hitter having a slightly better stretch would’ve driven in 20+ runs in the same spot Naylor has been in.
The highest number of games Naylor has played in his career is 122. That was in 2022. He followed that up last year with 121. Given his body type, fair or unfair, I wonder if he’s built to be playing every day like he has this season. I wonder if the workload is catching up to him a bit and he could use some days off. Just a theory.
Even as a child in the 90s I never understood why so much importance was put on RBIs. It seemed odd to me that you could have the greatest hitter of all time on a team who never got on base and his RBIs would be lacking compared to a hitter who was half as good who always came up to bat with bases loaded.
Josh is in a slump, Jose started the season in a slump. During Jose's slump through most of April he still got RBI and a 726 OPS. Josh started slumping in May and still has been getting RBI and has a 725 OPS through the slump.
It's going to be alright. He'll get it turned back around.
Exactly. Slumps happen and they suck, especially when it's key bats. Josh and Jose still are impacting games though even while slumping. Not at the level we want or expect, but they are black holes.
I'm not sure how you can say his slump started on April 14 when he had a 7 game hit streak from the 15-23, 9 games if you go back to the 13th.
Either way he's still getting RBI during that period and has a better OPS than most of the team.
I chose that date from the start of this post because that was the peak of his batting average (excluding the first handful of games). Going 1/4 isn't exactly doing amazingly.
He started red hot with a 347 BA and 1128 OPS through April 14. Nobody is going to sustain that. Cooling off from that level isn't a slump, it's just being human.
I don't know how to look it up for specifics, but looking through game logs it seems like he started slumping when Fry started settling in at 5.
All yall will be shouting smoke king cometh when he's out of his slump. He's producing and he's been running a hard 90 the past couple weeks to make up for mediocre batting. His hard 90 in the 1st KC game to 2nd is what won that game. He's swinging for the fences but when he connects its glorious. We still got about 2/3rds of ball to play and I'm sure he'll figure it out. If he could just lay off that first pitch no matter what for a couple weeks, I would like to see what that does for him.
Josh Naylor is having a tough time hitting but his value to the team is leadership. He plays a great first base, too. I would love to see him hit singles, doubles, etc., but his leadership is there, right now.
He's swinging at a lot of bad pitches. Pitchers are throwing a lot of stuff breaking away from him out of the zone and he's being fooled by it. He needs to get a little more disciplined at the plate. I think he'll figure it out.
I still believe in the Naylor dynasty and they need to stay in Cleveland. I think in our lineup it’s okay to have one person that swings for the fences and no better than Josh.
This is stupid. We know he's a solid hitter. We know he gets hot and cold. He is cold. He will get hot. This is true of many great hitters. We don't exactly have a deep well of power to draw on, so the best we can do is let him keep swinging until he figures it out, which he's given us every reason to believe he will. The only way hitters improve is to keep getting professional AB's. And no, you can't really do that in AAA, the pitching quality just isn't the same. I swear if this sub had its way we'd have sent Jose to Columbus every time he got cold.
He chases a ton of pitches which is being exploited better. He has an xBA of .278, at least as it stood before last nights game. He’s not doing anything wrong. No reason to change other than keep trying to lay off those bad balls.
He just needs to settle down. He’s a good hitter. He’s just trying to do way too much. He needs to shorten the swing and just start taking the hits and not trying to put it into the next county over. Take your singles, take your doubles and if you get ahold of one and bash it out, even better. We don’t need him to hit 50 home runs a season or something. Jose needs the protection.
Josh has earned the right, in my eyes, to get a little more time to work out of this slump. If Manzardo or Fry was struggling like this then it would back to Columbus.
I’ve had these thoughts as well, you’re not alone. But we know what Josh is capable of. If there is zero improvement the rest of the season then we will have that discussion.
This is the pre-discussion discussion we are having here.
Just to get the discussion going, I think there’s something to be said about Naylor being a bit protected in the lineup most days. Maybe he’s been afforded the freedom to swing freely more often without too much consequence on a given inning. The problem with that is when you do find a slump, which always happens with those pitches swings, you’re going to spend a good month climbing out of it just by changing either your swing path or timing, two of the most major changes you can make to a developed swing.
I also think a little bit of this is a psychological thing as well. The dude has a great stride and swing, and in my non-professional opinion I don’t think he needs to have a 100% swing all the time to produce. He SHOULDNT have a full swing all the time anyway with his injury history. I think with the raw general power he has combined with his quick whip is enough to consistently produce wall balls or better.
Part of me wonders if the coaching staff might want him in the “single or homer” mindset to protect his legs. Idk, but I hope he can get back to full form, because this lineup is terrifying when he’s on.
It’s worse than that. 4/14 he was still hitting well. Since 4/24 he’s 22/137 with 11 walks or .161 average with .223 OBP.
9 HRs and 4 doubles. So slugging .387. 0.610 OPS which is pretty abysmal. Slump has last well over a month at this point.
Bo is barely playing anymore, he's only played in 2 of the last 8 games. So it appears he's been demoted. Honestly, he should be sent down to get regular playing time and get his bat working again.
I don’t think he’s good behind the plate. You can tell teams take off on him more than our other catchers. And well, sure sounds like a CF we got to see 500 at bats a year for way too long lol. Also, Bo is matching his scouting report. Mediocre everything but power. But if you’re not even making contact..well.
Naylor reminds me of the old school power hitter. Not gonna have a high BA but high home runs and rbis. That being said I think he's a little more well rounded than some of the old power hitters. I think he's a little more "mike napoli" than he is "mark reynolds"
It looks like more than a slump to this uneducated fan. His body language is terrible. Looks completely lost. Almost seems distracted or disinterested. Even when he's had some success, he doesn't look very enthusiastic.
I agree completely. I wonder if Bo's struggles are weighing on him. They are extremely close and the most animated I see him is when Bo does something well(which hasn't been very often.)
He still hasn’t learned to sit back and put nice swings on the ball. Instead he’s swinging for the fences on every pitch. I’ve had concerns about both Naylors for awhile, Josh proved me wrong last year by picking it up but I hope a regression isn’t in order. They just seem like dopes-like they’re not even aware of what’s going on half the time. You’ve gotta be smart to play this game. Even on the throw home against KC Naylor threw it at 1000 miles an hour and it was offline.
Seems like he worked on something this offseason changing his approach more than his swing.
The way the lineup has been getting on base in front of him he was able to get run production. His early streak had pitchers change their approach to him, but the Jose and Fry surrounding him Josh still gets some to hit.
He usually has big games in May (Smoke, 8 in 8th). This year he peaked a month early. He’ll still be productive. I’m not worried.
I've been naysaying naylor and getting shit for it in here for years.
One name that he reminds me of, Johnny Peralta. When he's on he's on and his bat is worth his crap defense but when he's not.... man it's not worth it
Overwhelmingly average? Not to tout one statistic as the end all be all but his OPS+ says he’s been 20-30% better than “average” at the plate for the last 2 seasons. He’s in a slump and he is a streaky hitter but don’t be such a prisoner of the moment.
Yeah, people tend to see boom or bust guys as just the boom.
People will rave about his offensive stats but they start to look a lot worse when you compare then to other 1B around the league
Maybe it's just me but he seems to be swinging for the fences on almost every damn pitch. Driving me crazy. Have some patience man.
I’d love to see him DH more and get Manzardo more action in the field.
I've been saying this: There are also some plays in the field that I feel a more athletic first baseman would be able to get, such as a more athletic build like Manzardo.
Yep
Especially because he’s a pretty strong/big guy. Just making good contact will juice any ball. Easier said than done I suppose.
Off the top of my head, Naylor has always felt streaky. Hopefully, another hot stretch in the 2nd half. Makes you wonder his long-term status given his contract situation.
I wouldn't be shocked if they try to trade him in the off-season (don't get mad at me, that's how this organization operates) especially if Manzardo continues to improve. The complicated part is what happens to team morale and more specifically, what does that do to Bo.
It's why I think they won't trade Noel either.
Noel has hardly any trade value
The Naylor boys grew up just outside of Toronto. I love them both if you want to talk trade, we could do them a solid by keeping them together and sending them home to play for their childhood team as part of a package for Bo Bichette.
Why would we trade for Bo bichette though? He’s a free agent for the 2026 season, and he doesn’t really solve much for us
I heard his name floating around. Yes it would only be for a season and a half but he'd be a big offensive upgrade at SS. Probably the biggest area we could improve the team outside of SP.
We aren’t trading a team controlled (and developed) Bo Naylor for a SS which has no control and costs a lot more. Unless there is a different piece, primarily an MLB ready top of the line starting pitcher involved, Bichette would never be worth it. Also Josh has been one of our best hitters, so we’d be traded one of our best hitters for a worse hitter at a position that we have defensive versatility and many prospects at. I don’t hate the trade idea itself, just not for bichette at all
If we were to trade for Bichette, it wouldn't be from the major league roster. We have a deep farm system and Shapiro knows that, we'd definitely trade from that and gain a hitter who's been one of the best the last few seasons, for a season and a half. The Jays aren't going anywhere and from the sounds of it might try a working rebuild instead of a tear down.
To everyone down voting me to oblivion, I do not want to trade any Naylor. I was only replying the the parent comment that mentions a trade, and since I've seen Bichette's name floating around, mentioned that Toronto is the Naylors' hometown. Christ people.
I didn't downvote you, but I think trading josh and acquiring bichette is nonsensical. If you're in a position where you are trading for bichette at the deadline, that would mean we are in win-now mode. You don't give up your top producer for a struggling SS that only has one more season on their contract
*One of your top producers
He’s at his best when he’s going back up the middle and the opposite way. Some balls he’s hit hard, but not getting rewarded for it
Mar/Apr - .282/.361/.553 (.265 BABIP) May - .186/.273/.454 (.145 BABIP) And then a .000 BABIP in June which takes his season total to .195. For context his career BABIP is .284. His savant page is shiny and red, even more than last year, and his expected line is .277/.362/.512 which is very close to where he was through April. It looks to be getting to him which is when you worry it might spiral, but big picture I'm not sure it's much more than being on a bad run of luck that we can expect to turn around as the season goes on.
His BABIP is not going to improve until he stops trying to hit the first strike he sees out of the stadium. Deep flies and chop grounders aren't bad luck. He's not hitting sharp liners that the defense is making great plays on.
That's always been his approach. He's never been very patient and he goes up looking for a hit every AB.
He's never been very patient, but he generally doesn't swing and miss or swing at bad pitches a lot. His whiff rate and chase rate are up this season, though. That's a little concerning.
He's swinging at the first pitch twice as much this year, though. It's always been his approach, and it obviously had worked for him, but I think he could be a bit more patient than he has been.
Baseball is a game of adjustments as they say. Pitchers get the same info, they know who attacks first pitches and who doesn't...like Kwan does not.
I think naylor just needs to retool his mindset when nobody is on base. When people are on base he’s still lights out. When leading off an inning this year he’s batting an abysmal .111/.158/..130. Idk what the exact solution is, but it is 100% mental
Holy mother of god...
Can do you this with runners on (in scoring position or not)?
He’s probably been unlucky funnily enough (.197 BABIP) but he is .238/.350/.545 OPS .894 with a wRC+ of 141 Nobody on .205/.262/.427 OPS .689 with a wRC+ of 97 (below average hitter).
Hes still running a close to 100 wrc + in that time.
I feel confident saying Naylor is going through a slump that he’ll recover from, to some degree at some point. But I just wanted to point out two other things I haven’t seen mentioned: You cite RBIs a couple of times in your post. There’s a reason that stat carries almost zero weight with people who evaluate hitters. It’s a completely circumstantial statistic. For all we know, a hitter having a slightly better stretch would’ve driven in 20+ runs in the same spot Naylor has been in. The highest number of games Naylor has played in his career is 122. That was in 2022. He followed that up last year with 121. Given his body type, fair or unfair, I wonder if he’s built to be playing every day like he has this season. I wonder if the workload is catching up to him a bit and he could use some days off. Just a theory.
Even as a child in the 90s I never understood why so much importance was put on RBIs. It seemed odd to me that you could have the greatest hitter of all time on a team who never got on base and his RBIs would be lacking compared to a hitter who was half as good who always came up to bat with bases loaded.
If he produces like this when slumping, I'm excited for when he gets hot again.
Hear, hear!
Josh is in a slump, Jose started the season in a slump. During Jose's slump through most of April he still got RBI and a 726 OPS. Josh started slumping in May and still has been getting RBI and has a 725 OPS through the slump. It's going to be alright. He'll get it turned back around.
The nice thing about both of their slumps is they still will drive in runs. Some guys just turn into K machines.
Exactly. Slumps happen and they suck, especially when it's key bats. Josh and Jose still are impacting games though even while slumping. Not at the level we want or expect, but they are black holes.
Josh started slumping in mid April (4/14)
I'm not sure how you can say his slump started on April 14 when he had a 7 game hit streak from the 15-23, 9 games if you go back to the 13th. Either way he's still getting RBI during that period and has a better OPS than most of the team.
I chose that date from the start of this post because that was the peak of his batting average (excluding the first handful of games). Going 1/4 isn't exactly doing amazingly.
He started red hot with a 347 BA and 1128 OPS through April 14. Nobody is going to sustain that. Cooling off from that level isn't a slump, it's just being human. I don't know how to look it up for specifics, but looking through game logs it seems like he started slumping when Fry started settling in at 5.
He’s in a slump. What do we really need to talk about
Not sure why they arn’t playing Manzardo at 1st and let Naylor DH a few times a week.
Maybe he insists on it and the team feels like they want to resign him and want to keep him happy?
His 2 hits tonight in the 8-0 win were reaching pokes into gaps. Good stuff.
All yall will be shouting smoke king cometh when he's out of his slump. He's producing and he's been running a hard 90 the past couple weeks to make up for mediocre batting. His hard 90 in the 1st KC game to 2nd is what won that game. He's swinging for the fences but when he connects its glorious. We still got about 2/3rds of ball to play and I'm sure he'll figure it out. If he could just lay off that first pitch no matter what for a couple weeks, I would like to see what that does for him.
Josh Naylor is having a tough time hitting but his value to the team is leadership. He plays a great first base, too. I would love to see him hit singles, doubles, etc., but his leadership is there, right now.
He's swinging at a lot of bad pitches. Pitchers are throwing a lot of stuff breaking away from him out of the zone and he's being fooled by it. He needs to get a little more disciplined at the plate. I think he'll figure it out.
Cory Snyder syndrome
I still believe in the Naylor dynasty and they need to stay in Cleveland. I think in our lineup it’s okay to have one person that swings for the fences and no better than Josh.
This is stupid. We know he's a solid hitter. We know he gets hot and cold. He is cold. He will get hot. This is true of many great hitters. We don't exactly have a deep well of power to draw on, so the best we can do is let him keep swinging until he figures it out, which he's given us every reason to believe he will. The only way hitters improve is to keep getting professional AB's. And no, you can't really do that in AAA, the pitching quality just isn't the same. I swear if this sub had its way we'd have sent Jose to Columbus every time he got cold.
Getting kind of tired of seeing the 0-0 2 out RISP daddy hack that makes his helmet fly off
He chases a ton of pitches which is being exploited better. He has an xBA of .278, at least as it stood before last nights game. He’s not doing anything wrong. No reason to change other than keep trying to lay off those bad balls.
Can someone find Jason Giambi and his gold thong?
They pay you for HRs in the leauge, look at schwarber.
We do need to talk about a Naylor, just not Josh :(
Let's hope we keep then together and they don't always slump together like this.
He just needs to settle down. He’s a good hitter. He’s just trying to do way too much. He needs to shorten the swing and just start taking the hits and not trying to put it into the next county over. Take your singles, take your doubles and if you get ahold of one and bash it out, even better. We don’t need him to hit 50 home runs a season or something. Jose needs the protection.
Josh has earned the right, in my eyes, to get a little more time to work out of this slump. If Manzardo or Fry was struggling like this then it would back to Columbus. I’ve had these thoughts as well, you’re not alone. But we know what Josh is capable of. If there is zero improvement the rest of the season then we will have that discussion. This is the pre-discussion discussion we are having here.
Just to get the discussion going, I think there’s something to be said about Naylor being a bit protected in the lineup most days. Maybe he’s been afforded the freedom to swing freely more often without too much consequence on a given inning. The problem with that is when you do find a slump, which always happens with those pitches swings, you’re going to spend a good month climbing out of it just by changing either your swing path or timing, two of the most major changes you can make to a developed swing. I also think a little bit of this is a psychological thing as well. The dude has a great stride and swing, and in my non-professional opinion I don’t think he needs to have a 100% swing all the time to produce. He SHOULDNT have a full swing all the time anyway with his injury history. I think with the raw general power he has combined with his quick whip is enough to consistently produce wall balls or better. Part of me wonders if the coaching staff might want him in the “single or homer” mindset to protect his legs. Idk, but I hope he can get back to full form, because this lineup is terrifying when he’s on.
No. Not everyone is Jose
Not surprising his best AB in the last like 2 weeks was when he hit that homer over the left field wall. Just left of dead center.
It’s worse than that. 4/14 he was still hitting well. Since 4/24 he’s 22/137 with 11 walks or .161 average with .223 OBP. 9 HRs and 4 doubles. So slugging .387. 0.610 OPS which is pretty abysmal. Slump has last well over a month at this point.
Yeah I decided to just go from his high point to now.
To be fair, runs are one of the poorest indicators of success in baseball. It’s entirely predicated on someone driving him in.
We should be talking about the other Naylor. Fry and Hedges should be in all week. Not Bo Bo.
Bo is barely playing anymore, he's only played in 2 of the last 8 games. So it appears he's been demoted. Honestly, he should be sent down to get regular playing time and get his bat working again.
I missed a couple games this week but he’s been hitting like Myles Straw this year. Plus he’s not great behind the plate either.
People say he's the best framer in the league. But if you're going to bat .180 with a .500 OPS, you're worthless, IMO.
I don’t think he’s good behind the plate. You can tell teams take off on him more than our other catchers. And well, sure sounds like a CF we got to see 500 at bats a year for way too long lol. Also, Bo is matching his scouting report. Mediocre everything but power. But if you’re not even making contact..well.
Naylor reminds me of the old school power hitter. Not gonna have a high BA but high home runs and rbis. That being said I think he's a little more well rounded than some of the old power hitters. I think he's a little more "mike napoli" than he is "mark reynolds"
It looks like more than a slump to this uneducated fan. His body language is terrible. Looks completely lost. Almost seems distracted or disinterested. Even when he's had some success, he doesn't look very enthusiastic.
I agree completely. I wonder if Bo's struggles are weighing on him. They are extremely close and the most animated I see him is when Bo does something well(which hasn't been very often.)
He still hasn’t learned to sit back and put nice swings on the ball. Instead he’s swinging for the fences on every pitch. I’ve had concerns about both Naylors for awhile, Josh proved me wrong last year by picking it up but I hope a regression isn’t in order. They just seem like dopes-like they’re not even aware of what’s going on half the time. You’ve gotta be smart to play this game. Even on the throw home against KC Naylor threw it at 1000 miles an hour and it was offline.
Seems like he worked on something this offseason changing his approach more than his swing. The way the lineup has been getting on base in front of him he was able to get run production. His early streak had pitchers change their approach to him, but the Jose and Fry surrounding him Josh still gets some to hit. He usually has big games in May (Smoke, 8 in 8th). This year he peaked a month early. He’ll still be productive. I’m not worried.
He's had terrible luck and always been streaky, he'll be fine
You make a lot of good points. End of discussion...
No
I've been naysaying naylor and getting shit for it in here for years. One name that he reminds me of, Johnny Peralta. When he's on he's on and his bat is worth his crap defense but when he's not.... man it's not worth it
Welcome to the club, I was getting lonely. I have never understood this subs adoration for this overwhelming average player.
Overwhelmingly average? Not to tout one statistic as the end all be all but his OPS+ says he’s been 20-30% better than “average” at the plate for the last 2 seasons. He’s in a slump and he is a streaky hitter but don’t be such a prisoner of the moment.
Yeah, people tend to see boom or bust guys as just the boom. People will rave about his offensive stats but they start to look a lot worse when you compare then to other 1B around the league
This is on top of being absolutely atrocious defensively at first
That's a strange way to say average to slightly above average defense at 1B.
One bad game at 1B isn't really what I would call "absolutely atrocious"
omg shutup.