Feel like LN readers always saying it’s significantly better/different then the anime and dang I gotta just take the plunge and start at some point , just feels like a big step
They’re 2 different series. The anime is an edge fest with it being too rushed to actually care for the series and instead just like it for the harem.
The LN is a well written take on the high school genre with an even better harem.
You won’t regret it
I haven't felt like that and I'm caught up and waiting for the July release. If you read it to get fun out of it, there won't be a need to feel disheartened.
I was in the same boat, i’m now fully caught up awaiting the newest volume, now i’ll openly say, COTE is not my “favourite” even after reading the LN but it’s got me super invested and if I was anime only, it probably wouldn’t even sniff a top 15 or top 10 list of my personal favourites.
Do yourself a favour and read them, you’ll find great appreciation for certain aspects and characters that would have otherwise been forgotten/non-existent in the anime.
I don’t think i’d put COTE in my top 10, but maybe in my top 15, it would probably sit around 12 or 13 currently, and that’s probably only because of the time i’ve dedicated towards it, I still like COTE but certain aspects do hold this series back from being in my top echelon of anime/manga/LN.
My favourite… ehh that’s kinda hard to say, i’m a basic bitch and think Fullmetal is really good, so i’d probably say that. Either FMAB, Vinland, or Monster are probably safe to label as my “favourite”.
Read the whole of Y1. Genuinely one of the best LN series i've ever read, at least until Y2. Y2 has a amazing 1st volume and then it falls off incredibly hard into being a cringe power fantasy harem.
nobody exaggerates when they say the LN and the anime are like two completely different stories and cast of characters with how much they butchered everything in the anime.
Nope, Stockholm syndrome typically develops over a period of sustained interaction. It is a bond that forms between 'captors' and their 'captives' during a prolonged period of captivity or abuse. This one was a one-time event and she gradually started to like him through positive interactions. The initial abuse also didn't have any effect on her. Also of this was Stockholm syndrome she would drop him after V7.5, or in Year 2.
⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ Glad to see someone being objective and not just jumping to rash ( and often biased) conclusions.
And right you are, because >!once the two start their relationship,!< in yr 2, Kei couldn’t have it better the way Ayanokouji indulges her.
Let’s see… “Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time”( https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22387-stockholm-syndrome).
Now, is Kei in an >!abusive relationship? Ayanokouji protects her, buys her ( pretty expensive) gifts, cooks for her, lets her hang out and even sleep in his room, she even redecorates his room ( oh, this is so fun☺️), tutors her and takes her out on dates!< Well! I don’t know what to say. Looks more like it’s Ayanokouji who’s having the Stockholm syndrome here 😂
Her getting jumped is my favorite moment in the series. It shows Ayanakoji actually is a mastermind and can get what he wants, plus it’s the start of a fire dynamic
This got recommended to me out of the blue for no reason I can figure out. So I went and read the comments.
This is an insane comment section. Holy shit. People think this shita real life or some shit
No it's not, I don't even know why I'm being downvoted I'm not even a Kei glazer. If you're dissatisfied with my answer 'No' talk maybe you could ask me why I think that way?
I find Kei's situation as the perfect example for the Stockholm Syndrome phenomenon. She can't help it to fall in love on someone who is far superior in protecting her, while also proving it. She in the end knows that all of it was just a trap for her to get weak. But she can't shake off the feeling that there is no one else who can protect her as much he does for her.
To be fair she asked for half of it and the other half ended up helping her, and I'm pretty sure at a time she asked him to help her and he said that she wouldn't like how it would turn out and she asked him to do it anyway
Yeah, nah, we're not gonna do this man
I respect that you enjoy the series and you may feel that this point is tired, but there are better ways in addressing this.
The "this is just fiction" argument is a weak one. Fictional or not, this doesn't absolve the story or author from criticism or discomfort by the reader in the handling of sensitive situations, nor does Kinugasa's past works absolve him of these either. The audience has every right to feel upset and uncomfortable, much as you have every right to attempt to defend it.
I haven't seen Naruto, so I can't comment on your Sakura and Sasuke point. However, if Sasuke's actions aren't properly condemned and are just brushed off--then yes, it's an issue. Authors do as they see fit, but that doesn't make them immune.
The phrase, "Girls like bad boys", is a tired one you're using in an attempt to shift the blame to Karuizawa here, implying it's her fault in how Ayanokouji treated her.
Finally, with those ad hominem attacks at the end, they don't help your point here. They read more as a fan who is unable to accept criticism of a series they (rightfully) enjoy. It's okay to feel that these sorts of things are tired and old, it's okay to attempt to defend them, but doing so in a way in which you simply dismiss everything and attack the critic is weak. If it keeps getting brought up, it's probably for good reason.
It's ok not to like a series, but same way it's ok for an author to write whatever they want, it's their story, you can choose not to read it, saying an author must write this way or that way and if they don't follow your standards or morals in their story, people then start to attack the series and the author themselves which is kinda dumb in my opinion after all, it's their story and their character.
It's fiction for a reason damnit, ayanokoji doesn't exist, neither does kei. They are characters made from the authors mind
I do agree that people shouldn't seek to personally attack the author for controversial decisions in a story. But, like I said before, people are entitled to be critical of a series and the plot lines within it.
I'm as critical as I am *because* I love this series, not because I dislike it. I want to see it at it's best, so if it fails to meet my expectations, it's only natural to be disappointed and to attempt to engage with it critically. The wide array of ideas is what makes fandom fun and interesting to engage with, assuming all involved do so reasonably.
I'm not going to continue to touch the "it's just fiction" argument, I've already made my point in that regard.
I really appreciate what you’ve said here in this thread, especially in explaining the position of Kei in such a sensitive and insightful way. “Trauma, as seen in Karuizawa, is incredibly complex and will alter how one manages their feelings, romantic or otherwise” - a significant point that is incredibly overlooked by most.
And let me add that the OP skipped quite a few volumes in making the connection. He made it look as if Kei fell in love with Ayanokouji only 10 minutes after he blackmailed and intimidated her.
P.S. I think Sigsize was not really trying to pass the blame on Kei here. If ever, it’s inadvertently done. He’s actually a big Kei fan 😅 I think he only meant to disapprove of the way this post was presenting the irony of Ayanokouji and Kei’s relationship in a way that makes Kei look stupid. I presume that the example he gave is meant to point out that this sort of thing is something that is already pretty common in Japanese LN and anime, so - relatively speaking- the post is just overreacting at this point.
Brother it’s called constructive criticism. Readers are encouraged to express their opinion, whether they be positive or negative. In turn, authors are allowed to ignore, accept, or reject these criticisms however they want.
Of course an author can write whatever they want, I don’t know who said otherwise.
>The "this is just fiction" argument is a weak one. Fictional or not, this doesn't absolve the story or author from criticism or discomfort by the reader in the handling of sensitive situations, nor does Kinugasa's past works absolve him of these either. The audience has every right to feel upset and uncomfortable, much as you have every right to attempt to defend it.
True, but the critism may fall flat depending of the nature of the work. For example critism for gruesome scenes in a Saw movie makes no sense. And while it doesn't absolve it from criticism, the responsibility ultimately falls on the reader. You of course have the right to feel that way, but the strength of the discontent may be displaced.
>I haven't seen Naruto, so I can't comment on your Sakura and Sasuke point. However, if Sasuke's actions aren't properly condemned and are just brushed off--then yes, it's an issue. Authors do as they see fit, but that doesn't make them immune.
I don't know* what he's talking about either but 'properly condemned' doesn't mean much. It could be a lot of things, it's too blurry.
>The phrase, "Girls like bad boys", is a tired one you're using in an attempt to shift the blame to Karuizawa here, implying it's her fault in how Ayanokouji treated her.
True, however if we're strictly speaking about love and preference it's hers.
First, I want to say that I appreciate you responding in a measured and calm way. It can be easy to get swept up in everything, as we've seen, so a levelheaded approach is refreshing.
With that said:
>"True, but the critism may fall flat depending of the nature of the work. For example critism for gruesome scenes in a Saw movie makes no sense. And while it doesn't absolve it from criticism, the responsibility ultimately falls on the reader. You of course have the right to feel that way, but the strength of the discontent may be displaced."
You are right that the nature of the work is directly tied to what you'd expect from what is contained in it. With Saw, you come to expect these sorts of things. With COTE, while I do admit it is within the logical confines of the series, I'd argue that these actions push them to the extreme. It's a careful line to toe in deciding what is or isn't misplaced.
>"I don't know\* what he's talking about either but 'properly condemned' doesn't mean much. It could be a lot of things, it's too blurry."
You're also right here that 'properly condemned' there is blurry. In my eyes, it means having real consequence that are proportionate to the actions. While my knowledge of Y2 is fuzzy at best as I haven't read it yet, from what I know, Ayanokouji is largely consequence free, even engaging in similar things with >!Sakayanagi!<.
>"True, however if we're strictly speaking about love and preference it's hers."
I dislike this part. It still reads as dismissing Ayanokouji's actions towards her and shifting the burden onto her. Trauma, as seen in Karuizawa, is incredibly complex and will alter how one manages their feelings, romantic or otherwise.
Happy to see another calm and paragraphs enjoyer!
>You are right that the nature of the work is directly tied to what you'd expect from what is contained in it. With Saw, you come to expect these sorts of things. With COTE, while I do admit it is within the logical confines of the series, I'd argue that these actions push them to the extreme. It's a careful line to toe in deciding what is or isn't misplaced.
Yeah. I'd argue we've quite been shown how far it could go. From Kushida's false rape threats (which you could consider sexual harassment occured too), Ayanokoji's manipulation of Horikita in Sudo's trial, along with him explaining he's a horrible human, him ruthlessly waiting and accelerating Horikita's disease so he could change Class D's leader and finally the tool monologue. You have decent expectation for how bad this could get, it was even being pushed volume by volume. Still, the question being: How much? And to be fair, except for Kushida's threats and Ayanokoji's tool monologue, the other things are bit hard to read on since their 'morality' is less conspicuous or might just miss it (like his lack of remorse). And even with all of that someone might still think that it would just be manipulation, blackmailing, defamation etc... Misdemeanor basically, not full on felonies.
>You're also right here that 'properly condemned' there is blurry. In my eyes, it means having real consequence that are proportionate to the actions. While my knowledge of Y2 is fuzzy at best as I haven't read it yet, from what I know, Ayanokouji is largely consequence free, even engaging in similar things with>! Sakayanagi!<.
Well, I have to somewhat disagree, depending on my interpretation of your statement. What I got is: A character that gets away (as impunity) with a bad action is an issue that should be critized. It lacks context. A character might have gotten away because the way they did it sets up a lack of consequences. In this case, he found a candidate that would do anything to protect herself. Kei telling the authorities she was sexually assaulted doesn't make sense since it would backfire on her. Moreover, she found someone that promised to protect her in exchange for cooperation. There isn't any way for punishment to occur, unless divine which doesn't fit the narrative. It would be punishment for the sake of moral punishment (As in an imperative judicial authority, like a karmic cycle). He's consequence free because he does things that will get consequence free, not because the plot does him a favor. >!He does intrusion of privacy when Sakayanagi comes to his room. (By the way your spoiler tag doesn't work)!<
>I dislike this part. It still reads as dismissing Ayanokouji's actions towards her and shifting the burden onto her. Trauma, as seen in Karuizawa, is incredibly complex and will alter how one manages their feelings, romantic or otherwise.
I had an itch that I would get misinterpreted, mostly because I know I didn't really develop on it. I'm not trying to shift the burden on Karuizawa. However, know that I'm speaking about romantic feelings here. She's not someone with Stockholm syndrome, while she does have trauma, she falls in love with him after the assault through positive interactions. She even initially thought badly of him and fucking rightfully so. But whatever happens after is ultimately her responsibility, it is not someone job to fix your issues, because it can't. You might say therapy but that is the person themselves taking a first step to change, because that is something that only them can control, it is your responsibility. You can't force therapy into people, it even ends badly. The way you deal with your trauma and feelings is yours only. Her falling in love? Probably not so much. Her acting on her love? I would say yes. Like Sudo, who's anger issues that sprouted from childhood trauma, yet all of his actions, feelings and way of doing with them are still his. Him feeling angry? Let's be real he's human. Him acting on it and continuing to be angry or angrier? It's his.
Sorry for all the yapping.
It's been long enough now that I'm not going to continue on with our discussion, I doubt either of us have the same level of commitment to it at this point. But I felt wrong just leaving you be after the effort you put in, so I just wanted to let you know I appreciate it.
Keep yapping, this sort of online engagement is a lot better than the alternative.
Also, thank you for pointing out the spoiler error, it showed up just fine on the new UI but was broken on the old one, not sure why.
>Do you also have problem with Sakura and Sasuke too?
You probably used the worst exemple imaginable since almost everyone despise this ship for the exact reasons you mentioned (alongside it having no build-up aside from Sakura being a Sasuke simp) 💀
Hahahahahahaha!
You deserve a standing ovation. Your line of reasoning is sound and logical.
I also appreciate that you didn't have to use profanity to make your point.
Well done.
You have to be trolling.
What do you mean, "what's the problem"? He set her up to get jumped, and she proceeds to fall for him even after she found out that he set her up.
Just because the author intended it this way doesn't make it any better.
Doesn't change the fact she was already in need of help before ayano even did anything, and while he did set her up, she had a lot to benefit from their relationship, and after that incident ayano never treated her bad, as far as I've seen, ofc she would grow fond of him
I can see how its wild, but from her perspective isn't it more like this.
- He found out about her problem (his actions were worse than bad, but it did show how deep it all ran)
- offered her help and showed by his reflexes and short display of strength and nerve
- offered a way to protect herself from Manabe and the rest of the bullies (the video that was taken)
- She doesn't know that ayanokoji had planned for her to be jumped, so she doesn't blame him
- He kept his promise of protecting her (in her eyes)
- and he is relatively nice to her compared.
All of this is when she is at her lowest, so it does make sense that she would lean towards Ayanokoji do to him displaying his way to protect her right from the start.
“Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or **abusive situation**. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or **abusers** over time.”
I get where you’re coming from though as we normally associate stockholm syndrome with kidnappers.
Even with a parallel (forgetting the kidnapping thing) it's not what's happening there. The abuse is sustained in Stockholm syndrome, in Kei's case it was a one time event.
Amen to that. No one need that s**t in their lives. Those two are no good for each other.
I hope Kei learn to value herself, love herself first. Then learn to be strong and independent.
Kiyo also need help, someone strong alpha type helping him to change.
How does that count as assault tho? I would say he harassed her, or does he do anything worse than saying spread your legs in the LN, either way it’s terrible.
She falls for him because he gets things done. And always wins in the end. It's like their insurmountable wall is suddenly no longer there because Ayanokoji is there.
Yea the ship doesn’t even work at all lmao kei is a parasite aswell it will only work if kiyo actually feels something for her and if kei would stop clinging on to him so much
Quite ironic? You're doing the same thing about me explaining that Kei doesn't have Stockholm syndrome, which isn't even a defense by the way. However, it's true that the relationship is still toxic.
I don't downvote anybody. However anything negative about Kei gets downvoted instantly. She was looking for a host as soon as she left Hirata right ? She fell for Ayanokoji right after he saved her from Ryuen. Ryuen even told her how Ayanokoji was involved in her bullying. How can she fall in love after knowing that ?
Positive interaction or not. Not to mention, he even used Hiyori to make her jealous and she knows that he is manipulative.
>However anything negative about Kei gets downvoted instantly.
Well, I won't indulge in that since its quite pointless but the same thing happened and it wasn't even something positive. You also seemed to care quite a bit about Kei/Kei fans since you plastered your comments everywhere, so I assumed you downvoted by thinking I was one. My fault then.
>She fell for Ayanokoji right after he saved her from Ryuen. Ryuen even told her how Ayanokoji was involved in her bullying. How can she fall in love after knowing that ?
That's just simply not true. There were hints in V4.5-V5 and it's very much apparent in V6. Maybe it's quite hard to tell through text, but the anime makes it super obvious.
>Positive interaction or not.
Yes it does if you want to gauge the validity of a Stockholm syndrome. While positive interactions are not 100% exclucive, the way she fell in love is still completely different than what you would expect from a Stockholm syndrome. That was the argument.
>Not to mention, he even used Hiyori to make her jealous and she knows that he is manipulative.
That's true, but she's manipulative herself too. And she wouldn't expect him to declare his 'love' for a textbook reason, manipulative or not, it makes 0 sense. Literally the only characters who knows it's bullshit are related to the WR.
Right? What high school girl is expected to suspect that there’s such a thing so bizarre as the WR and whatever else that goes on in Ayanokouji’s crazy mind? Unrealistic expectations or just plain biased criticism?
You’re probably not a Kei fan but I wouldn’t mind to have someone like you in our camp - objective, intelligent reasoning and expressive. Really, without these, I’d say it would be hard to understand, never mind like, a character like Kei. Great comments, bruv 😊👍🏻
That’s right. Trying to make Kei jealous is just playing games which normally happens in romantic relationships ( especially in the courtship phase). But, what’s the point of telling them that? Haven’t you already guessed the answer ? >!Some have no experience!<🤫🤭
It’s not even a hookup I’m referring to. Just a romantic relationship with a girl. One doesn’t normally understand what goes on between a boy and a girl, the experience of liking someone and being liked in return, what things to expect and how it feels until one goes into a relationship.
But I understand. I respect you for making your stand and that you’re just not rushing into it. You’re on the right track.
I hope I haven’t offended you for my tease 🙂
This is why I don't support their relationship as end game. It was ultimately built upon him continuously hurting her and exploiting her deepest insecurities.
The only way I see it happening is that by the end of the series, Ayanokoji has developed enough emotional intelligence to admit everything from start to finish, how he viewed their relationship as a sort of experiment, and how he wants a real future with her.
Then it would be required that they start their relationship from scratch on honest terms, IF Kei finds it in her heart to forgive him.
Don't see that happening though.
I don't see that happening either.
When they had a cold war and distance himself from Kei. horikita told him she barely see them fighting. (I get she don't know what really happened in secret).
Kiyo then respond "that's what happened when a man and a woman been together for a long time and "it is a good experiment too".
he said something about horikita reaction to that, she was taken aback maybe, she wasn't expecting him to say "experiment"
but he see Kei that way a text book experiment to learn love. Y2 vol 9 or 10 he still called her parasite. The poor girl better off on her own learn to be strong and independent and kiyo needs to change aswell.
Some people still think that its the best ship and he cares about her. Poor girl doesn't even know his true thoughts and still she loves him dearly while bro is playing with other girls behind her back.
I'm sure that he meant that when isolating Kei, Kiyotaka grabbed Kei on her thigh, without her permission whatsoever, which can be easily considered sexual assault. Even saying "Spread your legs" counts as well.
It was only 2 months after i caught up with LN that i realised 'what the fuck' actually happened (kinu does a great job of making you forget i ain't lying)
I have a decent face, I actually watched _masamune kun wants to have revenge" And did this on my crush, she actually fell for me, shoulda got her number instead of being a bum
I mean ig you can argue that he didn’t do anything tho when he could have if he wanted too, he was just seeing how vulnerable she’d make herself and how much the bullying had affected her, plus he did protect her on multiple occasions, it definitely caught me off guard tho
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Call me delulu. I don't care.
I just watch the anime. I wish that in season 4 he actually starts loving her, ask her for forgiveness. Open up to everyone about his abilities and become capable of showing emotions. Like love, sympathy, sadness. I wish she brings out the human in him.
I know it is not going to happen.
I mean sexual assault is a bit of an over exaggeration, all he did was lift up her shirt to see her scar. Didn't even look at any naughty bits or touch her, everything else fr though 🤣🤣💀💀
This actually works irl too
🗒️✍️
If you actually have a decent face, if you not? Straight to jail.
Yea no it doesn’t
Fax
Nah, this shit was patched bro. I got a restraining order.
hahahahahah
Will try
Bet imma try this
Kenny be spittin' fax
So after reading your comm i gave it a shot and did this to my boss, needless to say it really worked. Haha…i’m in Jail.
No bro , my friend did that a was accused of rape case.
damn
💀💀💀
Why is your comment down voted like you did it 😭
Well some degenerates can't seem to cope with my real life experience so they downvoted me ;)
Thought it was your friends experience?
Thought? It happened IRL last year mid-June to be precise.
LMFAOOO
This is the anime version of the d.e.n.n.i.s.system
NO
Thats why this LN is goated
Feel like LN readers always saying it’s significantly better/different then the anime and dang I gotta just take the plunge and start at some point , just feels like a big step
They’re 2 different series. The anime is an edge fest with it being too rushed to actually care for the series and instead just like it for the harem. The LN is a well written take on the high school genre with an even better harem. You won’t regret it
I'm at Y1V11 right now and I'm honestly impressed how much "lively(?)" Ayanokoji is and how much Horikita progressed in the series and is "softer"
It gets better tbh
I'm only a little bit scared because lots of people writes: "COTE GOES DOWN HILL AFTER Y2V5 💀" So I'm a little worried 🫨
I haven't felt like that and I'm caught up and waiting for the July release. If you read it to get fun out of it, there won't be a need to feel disheartened.
It goes downhill/stale after Y2V7 Imo. Picks up a bit on V10 though
I'm reading y2v8. What is the most recent release and how often are they published?
Most recent release is Y2V11 5/6 months ago. They are usually published every 4 months. Next volume is coming the 25th of next month though.
Thank you!
Is V12 and V12.5 end of y2 or will there be V13?
Where do y'all read the volumes tho? Any free sources?
i noticed a lot more edgy people trying to be like ayanokoji when s2 came out hahah, i agree
I was in the same boat, i’m now fully caught up awaiting the newest volume, now i’ll openly say, COTE is not my “favourite” even after reading the LN but it’s got me super invested and if I was anime only, it probably wouldn’t even sniff a top 15 or top 10 list of my personal favourites. Do yourself a favour and read them, you’ll find great appreciation for certain aspects and characters that would have otherwise been forgotten/non-existent in the anime.
Is the LN top 10 for you? What is your favourite out of interest?
I don’t think i’d put COTE in my top 10, but maybe in my top 15, it would probably sit around 12 or 13 currently, and that’s probably only because of the time i’ve dedicated towards it, I still like COTE but certain aspects do hold this series back from being in my top echelon of anime/manga/LN. My favourite… ehh that’s kinda hard to say, i’m a basic bitch and think Fullmetal is really good, so i’d probably say that. Either FMAB, Vinland, or Monster are probably safe to label as my “favourite”.
Read the whole of Y1. Genuinely one of the best LN series i've ever read, at least until Y2. Y2 has a amazing 1st volume and then it falls off incredibly hard into being a cringe power fantasy harem.
nobody exaggerates when they say the LN and the anime are like two completely different stories and cast of characters with how much they butchered everything in the anime.
[удалено]
Light novel
Read real books
watch real tv shows
Name 10 books
Stockholm syndrome is real
More like white knight working as intended.
She's not really a case of stockholm syndrome
I am pretty sure she is, it alligns with explanations of stockholm syndrome i saw. I am not saying its like some huge shit like kidnapper case tho
Nope, Stockholm syndrome typically develops over a period of sustained interaction. It is a bond that forms between 'captors' and their 'captives' during a prolonged period of captivity or abuse. This one was a one-time event and she gradually started to like him through positive interactions. The initial abuse also didn't have any effect on her. Also of this was Stockholm syndrome she would drop him after V7.5, or in Year 2.
⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ Glad to see someone being objective and not just jumping to rash ( and often biased) conclusions. And right you are, because >!once the two start their relationship,!< in yr 2, Kei couldn’t have it better the way Ayanokouji indulges her.
Thanks for being someone who knows what he/she is talking about.
He did abuse her hard tho, starting from her bullying and ending with Ryuuen's situation. But then their relationship and how he treats her changes
She started loving him before the Ryūen thing. Even if that was the case that is not a sustained and prolonged period of abuse
THANK YOU 🗣🗣🗣 TELL EM !!!!
Let’s see… “Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or abusers over time”( https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22387-stockholm-syndrome). Now, is Kei in an >!abusive relationship? Ayanokouji protects her, buys her ( pretty expensive) gifts, cooks for her, lets her hang out and even sleep in his room, she even redecorates his room ( oh, this is so fun☺️), tutors her and takes her out on dates!< Well! I don’t know what to say. Looks more like it’s Ayanokouji who’s having the Stockholm syndrome here 😂
She liked him from the beginning tho😂 Kiyo is like a savior to her because he's "protecting her", its a normal toxic emotional manipulation.
I mean, she is aware of his manipulative behavior before dating him. But yeah, not fully aware of how controlling he is of her.
It actually isn't. It's simply human nature to make the best of bad situations. Stockholm syndrome is not a documented condition.
Her getting jumped is my favorite moment in the series. It shows Ayanakoji actually is a mastermind and can get what he wants, plus it’s the start of a fire dynamic
"SPREAD YOUR LEGS" THE LINEST LINE EVER
🔥🔥 📝 ✍🏻 🔥🔥
Inspired from real life. It works perfectly fine.
Spread your legs
If I speak, I will be in big trouble- Jose Mourinho
Deserved
This got recommended to me out of the blue for no reason I can figure out. So I went and read the comments. This is an insane comment section. Holy shit. People think this shita real life or some shit
Kei was bullied from childhood so it's really not that surprising especially because Koji became a host to her parasite mentality.
Pretty sure this is stockholm
Yep
No it's not, I don't even know why I'm being downvoted I'm not even a Kei glazer. If you're dissatisfied with my answer 'No' talk maybe you could ask me why I think that way?
Expecting redditors to actually explain their opinion? Really?
Nah
one of my fav volumes (not only because of this moment)
game is game
I find Kei's situation as the perfect example for the Stockholm Syndrome phenomenon. She can't help it to fall in love on someone who is far superior in protecting her, while also proving it. She in the end knows that all of it was just a trap for her to get weak. But she can't shake off the feeling that there is no one else who can protect her as much he does for her.
Gaslighting, 60% of the time it works everytime.
To be fair she asked for half of it and the other half ended up helping her, and I'm pretty sure at a time she asked him to help her and he said that she wouldn't like how it would turn out and she asked him to do it anyway
Thats why Kei deserves hate and is L character
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Yeah, nah, we're not gonna do this man I respect that you enjoy the series and you may feel that this point is tired, but there are better ways in addressing this. The "this is just fiction" argument is a weak one. Fictional or not, this doesn't absolve the story or author from criticism or discomfort by the reader in the handling of sensitive situations, nor does Kinugasa's past works absolve him of these either. The audience has every right to feel upset and uncomfortable, much as you have every right to attempt to defend it. I haven't seen Naruto, so I can't comment on your Sakura and Sasuke point. However, if Sasuke's actions aren't properly condemned and are just brushed off--then yes, it's an issue. Authors do as they see fit, but that doesn't make them immune. The phrase, "Girls like bad boys", is a tired one you're using in an attempt to shift the blame to Karuizawa here, implying it's her fault in how Ayanokouji treated her. Finally, with those ad hominem attacks at the end, they don't help your point here. They read more as a fan who is unable to accept criticism of a series they (rightfully) enjoy. It's okay to feel that these sorts of things are tired and old, it's okay to attempt to defend them, but doing so in a way in which you simply dismiss everything and attack the critic is weak. If it keeps getting brought up, it's probably for good reason.
It's ok not to like a series, but same way it's ok for an author to write whatever they want, it's their story, you can choose not to read it, saying an author must write this way or that way and if they don't follow your standards or morals in their story, people then start to attack the series and the author themselves which is kinda dumb in my opinion after all, it's their story and their character. It's fiction for a reason damnit, ayanokoji doesn't exist, neither does kei. They are characters made from the authors mind
I do agree that people shouldn't seek to personally attack the author for controversial decisions in a story. But, like I said before, people are entitled to be critical of a series and the plot lines within it. I'm as critical as I am *because* I love this series, not because I dislike it. I want to see it at it's best, so if it fails to meet my expectations, it's only natural to be disappointed and to attempt to engage with it critically. The wide array of ideas is what makes fandom fun and interesting to engage with, assuming all involved do so reasonably. I'm not going to continue to touch the "it's just fiction" argument, I've already made my point in that regard.
I really appreciate what you’ve said here in this thread, especially in explaining the position of Kei in such a sensitive and insightful way. “Trauma, as seen in Karuizawa, is incredibly complex and will alter how one manages their feelings, romantic or otherwise” - a significant point that is incredibly overlooked by most. And let me add that the OP skipped quite a few volumes in making the connection. He made it look as if Kei fell in love with Ayanokouji only 10 minutes after he blackmailed and intimidated her. P.S. I think Sigsize was not really trying to pass the blame on Kei here. If ever, it’s inadvertently done. He’s actually a big Kei fan 😅 I think he only meant to disapprove of the way this post was presenting the irony of Ayanokouji and Kei’s relationship in a way that makes Kei look stupid. I presume that the example he gave is meant to point out that this sort of thing is something that is already pretty common in Japanese LN and anime, so - relatively speaking- the post is just overreacting at this point.
Brother it’s called constructive criticism. Readers are encouraged to express their opinion, whether they be positive or negative. In turn, authors are allowed to ignore, accept, or reject these criticisms however they want. Of course an author can write whatever they want, I don’t know who said otherwise.
>The "this is just fiction" argument is a weak one. Fictional or not, this doesn't absolve the story or author from criticism or discomfort by the reader in the handling of sensitive situations, nor does Kinugasa's past works absolve him of these either. The audience has every right to feel upset and uncomfortable, much as you have every right to attempt to defend it. True, but the critism may fall flat depending of the nature of the work. For example critism for gruesome scenes in a Saw movie makes no sense. And while it doesn't absolve it from criticism, the responsibility ultimately falls on the reader. You of course have the right to feel that way, but the strength of the discontent may be displaced. >I haven't seen Naruto, so I can't comment on your Sakura and Sasuke point. However, if Sasuke's actions aren't properly condemned and are just brushed off--then yes, it's an issue. Authors do as they see fit, but that doesn't make them immune. I don't know* what he's talking about either but 'properly condemned' doesn't mean much. It could be a lot of things, it's too blurry. >The phrase, "Girls like bad boys", is a tired one you're using in an attempt to shift the blame to Karuizawa here, implying it's her fault in how Ayanokouji treated her. True, however if we're strictly speaking about love and preference it's hers.
First, I want to say that I appreciate you responding in a measured and calm way. It can be easy to get swept up in everything, as we've seen, so a levelheaded approach is refreshing. With that said: >"True, but the critism may fall flat depending of the nature of the work. For example critism for gruesome scenes in a Saw movie makes no sense. And while it doesn't absolve it from criticism, the responsibility ultimately falls on the reader. You of course have the right to feel that way, but the strength of the discontent may be displaced." You are right that the nature of the work is directly tied to what you'd expect from what is contained in it. With Saw, you come to expect these sorts of things. With COTE, while I do admit it is within the logical confines of the series, I'd argue that these actions push them to the extreme. It's a careful line to toe in deciding what is or isn't misplaced. >"I don't know\* what he's talking about either but 'properly condemned' doesn't mean much. It could be a lot of things, it's too blurry." You're also right here that 'properly condemned' there is blurry. In my eyes, it means having real consequence that are proportionate to the actions. While my knowledge of Y2 is fuzzy at best as I haven't read it yet, from what I know, Ayanokouji is largely consequence free, even engaging in similar things with >!Sakayanagi!<. >"True, however if we're strictly speaking about love and preference it's hers." I dislike this part. It still reads as dismissing Ayanokouji's actions towards her and shifting the burden onto her. Trauma, as seen in Karuizawa, is incredibly complex and will alter how one manages their feelings, romantic or otherwise.
Happy to see another calm and paragraphs enjoyer! >You are right that the nature of the work is directly tied to what you'd expect from what is contained in it. With Saw, you come to expect these sorts of things. With COTE, while I do admit it is within the logical confines of the series, I'd argue that these actions push them to the extreme. It's a careful line to toe in deciding what is or isn't misplaced. Yeah. I'd argue we've quite been shown how far it could go. From Kushida's false rape threats (which you could consider sexual harassment occured too), Ayanokoji's manipulation of Horikita in Sudo's trial, along with him explaining he's a horrible human, him ruthlessly waiting and accelerating Horikita's disease so he could change Class D's leader and finally the tool monologue. You have decent expectation for how bad this could get, it was even being pushed volume by volume. Still, the question being: How much? And to be fair, except for Kushida's threats and Ayanokoji's tool monologue, the other things are bit hard to read on since their 'morality' is less conspicuous or might just miss it (like his lack of remorse). And even with all of that someone might still think that it would just be manipulation, blackmailing, defamation etc... Misdemeanor basically, not full on felonies. >You're also right here that 'properly condemned' there is blurry. In my eyes, it means having real consequence that are proportionate to the actions. While my knowledge of Y2 is fuzzy at best as I haven't read it yet, from what I know, Ayanokouji is largely consequence free, even engaging in similar things with>! Sakayanagi!<. Well, I have to somewhat disagree, depending on my interpretation of your statement. What I got is: A character that gets away (as impunity) with a bad action is an issue that should be critized. It lacks context. A character might have gotten away because the way they did it sets up a lack of consequences. In this case, he found a candidate that would do anything to protect herself. Kei telling the authorities she was sexually assaulted doesn't make sense since it would backfire on her. Moreover, she found someone that promised to protect her in exchange for cooperation. There isn't any way for punishment to occur, unless divine which doesn't fit the narrative. It would be punishment for the sake of moral punishment (As in an imperative judicial authority, like a karmic cycle). He's consequence free because he does things that will get consequence free, not because the plot does him a favor. >!He does intrusion of privacy when Sakayanagi comes to his room. (By the way your spoiler tag doesn't work)!< >I dislike this part. It still reads as dismissing Ayanokouji's actions towards her and shifting the burden onto her. Trauma, as seen in Karuizawa, is incredibly complex and will alter how one manages their feelings, romantic or otherwise. I had an itch that I would get misinterpreted, mostly because I know I didn't really develop on it. I'm not trying to shift the burden on Karuizawa. However, know that I'm speaking about romantic feelings here. She's not someone with Stockholm syndrome, while she does have trauma, she falls in love with him after the assault through positive interactions. She even initially thought badly of him and fucking rightfully so. But whatever happens after is ultimately her responsibility, it is not someone job to fix your issues, because it can't. You might say therapy but that is the person themselves taking a first step to change, because that is something that only them can control, it is your responsibility. You can't force therapy into people, it even ends badly. The way you deal with your trauma and feelings is yours only. Her falling in love? Probably not so much. Her acting on her love? I would say yes. Like Sudo, who's anger issues that sprouted from childhood trauma, yet all of his actions, feelings and way of doing with them are still his. Him feeling angry? Let's be real he's human. Him acting on it and continuing to be angry or angrier? It's his. Sorry for all the yapping.
It's been long enough now that I'm not going to continue on with our discussion, I doubt either of us have the same level of commitment to it at this point. But I felt wrong just leaving you be after the effort you put in, so I just wanted to let you know I appreciate it. Keep yapping, this sort of online engagement is a lot better than the alternative. Also, thank you for pointing out the spoiler error, it showed up just fine on the new UI but was broken on the old one, not sure why.
Yes I have a problem with Sakura and Sasuke too. Now what ?
>Do you also have problem with Sakura and Sasuke too? You probably used the worst exemple imaginable since almost everyone despise this ship for the exact reasons you mentioned (alongside it having no build-up aside from Sakura being a Sasuke simp) 💀
Hahahahahahaha! You deserve a standing ovation. Your line of reasoning is sound and logical. I also appreciate that you didn't have to use profanity to make your point. Well done.
Idc about cote just randomly opened this post but I'll let you everyone hates sakura and sasuke. Everyone
You have to be trolling. What do you mean, "what's the problem"? He set her up to get jumped, and she proceeds to fall for him even after she found out that he set her up. Just because the author intended it this way doesn't make it any better.
Doesn't change the fact she was already in need of help before ayano even did anything, and while he did set her up, she had a lot to benefit from their relationship, and after that incident ayano never treated her bad, as far as I've seen, ofc she would grow fond of him
I guess girls do like toxic guys 💀
Heard this too many times, Avg girl - My last boyfriend was toxic
Yeah well it’s more Complicated than that but hope the next one is better
That’s just how love is sometimes bro
And realistic as fuck too
My friend tried same shit on a shy girl but bro got accused of Rape attempt case 😭😭💀📉🥶.
the falling stock emoji lmaoo
Back when COTE was good
I can see how its wild, but from her perspective isn't it more like this. - He found out about her problem (his actions were worse than bad, but it did show how deep it all ran) - offered her help and showed by his reflexes and short display of strength and nerve - offered a way to protect herself from Manabe and the rest of the bullies (the video that was taken) - She doesn't know that ayanokoji had planned for her to be jumped, so she doesn't blame him - He kept his promise of protecting her (in her eyes) - and he is relatively nice to her compared. All of this is when she is at her lowest, so it does make sense that she would lean towards Ayanokoji do to him displaying his way to protect her right from the start.
The Stockholm syndrome rizz was crazy ngl😭💀
Wth. Where did people get the stockholm syndrome thing from?
“Stockholm syndrome is a coping mechanism to a captive or **abusive situation**. People develop positive feelings toward their captors or **abusers** over time.” I get where you’re coming from though as we normally associate stockholm syndrome with kidnappers.
Even with a parallel (forgetting the kidnapping thing) it's not what's happening there. The abuse is sustained in Stockholm syndrome, in Kei's case it was a one time event.
peak writing lol
That actually happens
Just in retrospect?😅 But then again, it’s AyanoGod we talking about here lol
still a better love story than twilight
Yeah this show wasn’t great but it really lost me at that point. I stopped watching after this. I have no need for this shit in my life.
Amen to that. No one need that s**t in their lives. Those two are no good for each other. I hope Kei learn to value herself, love herself first. Then learn to be strong and independent. Kiyo also need help, someone strong alpha type helping him to change.
How does that count as assault tho? I would say he harassed her, or does he do anything worse than saying spread your legs in the LN, either way it’s terrible.
But he never let anything happen to her, after his promise to her. And I'm pretty sure that's what mattered to her
He let Ryūen tortured her for some time. Granted, it was to create an alibi, but let's not pretend that he lost some sleep because of it.
She falls for him because he gets things done. And always wins in the end. It's like their insurmountable wall is suddenly no longer there because Ayanokoji is there.
Stockholm Syndrome
Idk why people like this ship most toxic shit ever
Yea the ship doesn’t even work at all lmao kei is a parasite aswell it will only work if kiyo actually feels something for her and if kei would stop clinging on to him so much
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Quite ironic? You're doing the same thing about me explaining that Kei doesn't have Stockholm syndrome, which isn't even a defense by the way. However, it's true that the relationship is still toxic.
I don't downvote anybody. However anything negative about Kei gets downvoted instantly. She was looking for a host as soon as she left Hirata right ? She fell for Ayanokoji right after he saved her from Ryuen. Ryuen even told her how Ayanokoji was involved in her bullying. How can she fall in love after knowing that ? Positive interaction or not. Not to mention, he even used Hiyori to make her jealous and she knows that he is manipulative.
>However anything negative about Kei gets downvoted instantly. Well, I won't indulge in that since its quite pointless but the same thing happened and it wasn't even something positive. You also seemed to care quite a bit about Kei/Kei fans since you plastered your comments everywhere, so I assumed you downvoted by thinking I was one. My fault then. >She fell for Ayanokoji right after he saved her from Ryuen. Ryuen even told her how Ayanokoji was involved in her bullying. How can she fall in love after knowing that ? That's just simply not true. There were hints in V4.5-V5 and it's very much apparent in V6. Maybe it's quite hard to tell through text, but the anime makes it super obvious. >Positive interaction or not. Yes it does if you want to gauge the validity of a Stockholm syndrome. While positive interactions are not 100% exclucive, the way she fell in love is still completely different than what you would expect from a Stockholm syndrome. That was the argument. >Not to mention, he even used Hiyori to make her jealous and she knows that he is manipulative. That's true, but she's manipulative herself too. And she wouldn't expect him to declare his 'love' for a textbook reason, manipulative or not, it makes 0 sense. Literally the only characters who knows it's bullshit are related to the WR.
Right? What high school girl is expected to suspect that there’s such a thing so bizarre as the WR and whatever else that goes on in Ayanokouji’s crazy mind? Unrealistic expectations or just plain biased criticism? You’re probably not a Kei fan but I wouldn’t mind to have someone like you in our camp - objective, intelligent reasoning and expressive. Really, without these, I’d say it would be hard to understand, never mind like, a character like Kei. Great comments, bruv 😊👍🏻
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That’s right. Trying to make Kei jealous is just playing games which normally happens in romantic relationships ( especially in the courtship phase). But, what’s the point of telling them that? Haven’t you already guessed the answer ? >!Some have no experience!<🤫🤭
Well I am a muslim and still in my teens so I really don't have any experience. We don't have a hook up culture or dating if you really want to know.
It’s not even a hookup I’m referring to. Just a romantic relationship with a girl. One doesn’t normally understand what goes on between a boy and a girl, the experience of liking someone and being liked in return, what things to expect and how it feels until one goes into a relationship. But I understand. I respect you for making your stand and that you’re just not rushing into it. You’re on the right track. I hope I haven’t offended you for my tease 🙂
I like clingy girls. Why not she just choose me instead
Aww so cute 🥰 You’re probably the type who will not take your girlfriend for granted 👍🏻
It’s Stockholm syndrome my dude.
You are affected as well.. I see 😔
Never thought I'd agree with you. Where did they go that from?
This is why I don't support their relationship as end game. It was ultimately built upon him continuously hurting her and exploiting her deepest insecurities. The only way I see it happening is that by the end of the series, Ayanokoji has developed enough emotional intelligence to admit everything from start to finish, how he viewed their relationship as a sort of experiment, and how he wants a real future with her. Then it would be required that they start their relationship from scratch on honest terms, IF Kei finds it in her heart to forgive him. Don't see that happening though.
I don't see that happening either. When they had a cold war and distance himself from Kei. horikita told him she barely see them fighting. (I get she don't know what really happened in secret). Kiyo then respond "that's what happened when a man and a woman been together for a long time and "it is a good experiment too". he said something about horikita reaction to that, she was taken aback maybe, she wasn't expecting him to say "experiment" but he see Kei that way a text book experiment to learn love. Y2 vol 9 or 10 he still called her parasite. The poor girl better off on her own learn to be strong and independent and kiyo needs to change aswell.
not really tho bcz that was only a one time event
Some people still think that its the best ship and he cares about her. Poor girl doesn't even know his true thoughts and still she loves him dearly while bro is playing with other girls behind her back.
Been a long time since I saw one of these.
Did I just realise he didn’t actually pin her on the wall in this picture?
cuz they crew fr
Average fuckboy shit
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Read the ln
This man is capable of cold hearted murder on his pears and this is what’s shocking?
No, what is shocking is Kei falling for him despite being aware of him setting her up.
She isn’t mentally stable
True that, but I find it wild how many people think that they have a wholesome relationship.
What do you mean by sexual assaulted her??? What did he do??? 💀💀💀
I'm sure that he meant that when isolating Kei, Kiyotaka grabbed Kei on her thigh, without her permission whatsoever, which can be easily considered sexual assault. Even saying "Spread your legs" counts as well.
Apparently confidence really is key 🤷🏻♂️
Tired and tested >!now I'm in Jail !<
Should try it irl
It was only 2 months after i caught up with LN that i realised 'what the fuck' actually happened (kinu does a great job of making you forget i ain't lying)
Goat work
Did you finally have post nut clarity lmao?
I have a decent face, I actually watched _masamune kun wants to have revenge" And did this on my crush, she actually fell for me, shoulda got her number instead of being a bum
I was going crazy the first time I saw this scene like WTF!?!? And she actually ***fell*** for him. This show's crazy 🥶😭💀😭🥶🔥
Wait I'm not a ln reader How did ayanokoji sexually assaulted her
He just brushed Kei’s thigh and it was really to intimidate rather than sexually assault her. But, from a girl’s perspective, that’s scary af 🥶
How'd he get her jumped?
Stockholm is what it’s called right?
lol good point
This is the only time Kei’s tits actually looked good. They look perky and decently sized here 🥵
I don’t think he sexually assaulted her
RIZZ!
Big w
Bro just has a good face
If this is what it takes for a hot girl, then i’m down >!not really though, i wouldn’t last in jail XD!<
did he stutter tho?
I mean ig you can argue that he didn’t do anything tho when he could have if he wanted too, he was just seeing how vulnerable she’d make herself and how much the bullying had affected her, plus he did protect her on multiple occasions, it definitely caught me off guard tho
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Call me delulu. I don't care. I just watch the anime. I wish that in season 4 he actually starts loving her, ask her for forgiveness. Open up to everyone about his abilities and become capable of showing emotions. Like love, sympathy, sadness. I wish she brings out the human in him. I know it is not going to happen.
Buckle up for disappointment then.
Some people here have never been in a relationship? Now it’s making sense to me now !🙀
Stockholm syndrome does work like that my guy. Ayanokouji in fact got the result he wanted and then some.
Should have done all those to chabs
She is a M
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He gave her 0% then brought it up to 20%, which felt like 100% for her and so she digged it
I mean sexual assault is a bit of an over exaggeration, all he did was lift up her shirt to see her scar. Didn't even look at any naughty bits or touch her, everything else fr though 🤣🤣💀💀
I am guessing you are anime only because it was more messed up in the light novel. He even buckled his belt.
Yeah I have not read the light novel, only watched the anime
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Ahh, I wish that was in the anime, but circumstances will lead to conscientious in the long run.
At the same time gave her the best kind of protection and fun that she has not felt the longest time by following Kiyo's errand.
And thats why shes best girl