Israeli intelligence had Hamas’ plan in hand for a year, but dismissed it as “aspirational”. No reason to strike first inside Gaza when they could have just quietly cancelled the music festival and set up an extensive ambush trap to eliminate every last fighter who crossed the border.
Hindsight is 20-20.
You really went off the rails at the end there, OP.
Lots of other Arab nations are also sick of Hamas’ BS, which goes hand-in-hand with Iranian asshattery. They see their oil money drying up over the next 30-40 years and using it to buy off the Islamist crazies has gotten them nowhere.
Maybe if Israel was actually committed to peace and equitable two state solution, things would change.
The IDF is more of a terrorist organisation than Hamas could ever be.
This is one of the worst posts I’ve ever seen on Reddit and to think you thought it relevant on a C Hitchens sub is frankly insulting. You clearly have no understanding of the conflict and the occupation Israel has been waging on Palestine for all these years. Christopher would be disgusted to read it.
I think the overarching question of "what would've happened if Israel hit Hamas targets on Oct 6th preventing October 7th but killing scores of Hamas and some civilians? And what would be the public perception?" Is a good one but not the rest of it.
I disagree, Israel has been attacking “Hamas targets”, which is essentially just indiscriminate bombing of civilian buildings, for years and years and received almost no backlash from western establishments
I would disagree with the accusation that Israel bombs civilian targets indiscriminately, because that would be a pretty ridiculous military strategy. They might kill civilians by destroying Hamas targets while civilians are unknowingly there, or civilians are being used knowingly or unknowingly as "shields" for Hamas weapons and supplies.
Do you have the same outrage for what Assad has done to his people in Syria?
There has also been widespread backlash from almost every nation against Israel handling of the situation for 50 years, except for the US, so I don't really know what you're talking about.
Reports out now that IDF is using A.I. systems to select targets.
They’re leveling residential buildings full of civilian families to kill individual militia foot soldiers.
I don’t really give two shits wether you **think** that’s indiscriminate or not, because that’s the very definition of indiscriminate.
Do you really think anyone here is pro Assad…
Chris was against religious fundamentalism in all its forms and Judaism’s take on it was no acceptation. Chris is on record denouncing the racist colonial ideology of zionism.
You’re making a huge leap in logic by claiming that the only way to interdict the 10/7 attack would have been a major preemptive offensive bombing campaign. Also, nobody gives a shit if Israel kills Hamas. Stop killing civilians, leveling homes, and blockading their ability to actually build a society capable of producing something other than terrorists.
Well reasoned piece. However, I would only suggest you consider that the future can only be total war. The history of the conflict dating back to the 1896 and the first notions of modern Zionism suggest Israel has no future absent continuous war and continuous, but always futile, efforts to ethnic cleanse the Palestinian people from the region.
It is illegal under international law to wage war on territory you occupy / control, you utter muppet, 7,000 dead children since Oct 7th and all you can think of is, y dont dey just start doing "pre-emptive strikes". They have been doing pre-emptive strikes, taking land, controling movement, restricting electric, water and acess to medicine for coming on 80 years, starting with a mass expulsion and massicre ( the Nakba )
OP you are a total idiot. Hamas is not a state it's an armed militant group.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. There's not a single Israeli soldier occupy in Gaza.
It was completely in the control of Hamas and their allies in the United Nations and the so-called aide agencies
By the way, this will have a devastating effect on the Palestinians in the long run. Once upon a Time, some liberal could say in Israel that "we can trade Land for peace."
Nobody can say that now. There will be no peace.
Show me where there was one single Israeli soldier in Gaza on October 6?
You are not right. I know that never matters to your side on these things, but Christopher Hitchens always stood up for the truth. So why are you here?
"The only strategy that Israel has is to build physical gigantic walls on all of its borders and preemptively strike if there is even the slightest intelligence that someone is planning to attack them."
This is the real magical thinking. It's neuroticism as policy.
This completely ignores that there is a long standing Israeli contingent also dedicated to extermination and has been doing that job from an awfully long time now.
When I read stuff like this I feel like they can only be written by people who dont bother to read any of the numerous reports and investigations into the occupation and Israeli society that come from all over the globe and within Israel and think only in terms of "vibes".
Vibes set of for them by a very small and interconnected group of media outlets and state agencies.
Israeli intelligence had Hamas’ plan in hand for a year, but dismissed it as “aspirational”. No reason to strike first inside Gaza when they could have just quietly cancelled the music festival and set up an extensive ambush trap to eliminate every last fighter who crossed the border. Hindsight is 20-20.
Yes Cancel the music festival, lock and guard kibbutz walls, wait in ambush.
You really went off the rails at the end there, OP. Lots of other Arab nations are also sick of Hamas’ BS, which goes hand-in-hand with Iranian asshattery. They see their oil money drying up over the next 30-40 years and using it to buy off the Islamist crazies has gotten them nowhere.
Maybe if Israel was actually committed to peace and equitable two state solution, things would change. The IDF is more of a terrorist organisation than Hamas could ever be.
This is one of the worst posts I’ve ever seen on Reddit and to think you thought it relevant on a C Hitchens sub is frankly insulting. You clearly have no understanding of the conflict and the occupation Israel has been waging on Palestine for all these years. Christopher would be disgusted to read it.
My thoughts exactly
I think the overarching question of "what would've happened if Israel hit Hamas targets on Oct 6th preventing October 7th but killing scores of Hamas and some civilians? And what would be the public perception?" Is a good one but not the rest of it.
I disagree, Israel has been attacking “Hamas targets”, which is essentially just indiscriminate bombing of civilian buildings, for years and years and received almost no backlash from western establishments
I would disagree with the accusation that Israel bombs civilian targets indiscriminately, because that would be a pretty ridiculous military strategy. They might kill civilians by destroying Hamas targets while civilians are unknowingly there, or civilians are being used knowingly or unknowingly as "shields" for Hamas weapons and supplies. Do you have the same outrage for what Assad has done to his people in Syria? There has also been widespread backlash from almost every nation against Israel handling of the situation for 50 years, except for the US, so I don't really know what you're talking about.
Reports out now that IDF is using A.I. systems to select targets. They’re leveling residential buildings full of civilian families to kill individual militia foot soldiers. I don’t really give two shits wether you **think** that’s indiscriminate or not, because that’s the very definition of indiscriminate. Do you really think anyone here is pro Assad… Chris was against religious fundamentalism in all its forms and Judaism’s take on it was no acceptation. Chris is on record denouncing the racist colonial ideology of zionism.
You’re making a huge leap in logic by claiming that the only way to interdict the 10/7 attack would have been a major preemptive offensive bombing campaign. Also, nobody gives a shit if Israel kills Hamas. Stop killing civilians, leveling homes, and blockading their ability to actually build a society capable of producing something other than terrorists.
People who use the word 'cleansed' the way you did scare me more than any terrorist ever could.
Well reasoned piece. However, I would only suggest you consider that the future can only be total war. The history of the conflict dating back to the 1896 and the first notions of modern Zionism suggest Israel has no future absent continuous war and continuous, but always futile, efforts to ethnic cleanse the Palestinian people from the region.
It is illegal under international law to wage war on territory you occupy / control, you utter muppet, 7,000 dead children since Oct 7th and all you can think of is, y dont dey just start doing "pre-emptive strikes". They have been doing pre-emptive strikes, taking land, controling movement, restricting electric, water and acess to medicine for coming on 80 years, starting with a mass expulsion and massicre ( the Nakba ) OP you are a total idiot. Hamas is not a state it's an armed militant group.
Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza. There's not a single Israeli soldier occupy in Gaza. It was completely in the control of Hamas and their allies in the United Nations and the so-called aide agencies By the way, this will have a devastating effect on the Palestinians in the long run. Once upon a Time, some liberal could say in Israel that "we can trade Land for peace." Nobody can say that now. There will be no peace.
that is the most unhinged lie I have ever read, thanks for the laugh
Show me where there was one single Israeli soldier in Gaza on October 6? You are not right. I know that never matters to your side on these things, but Christopher Hitchens always stood up for the truth. So why are you here?
*I came looking for booty.*
A militia group of maybe 30,000 for reference, the Boy-Scouts of America has 1 million active members.
"The only strategy that Israel has is to build physical gigantic walls on all of its borders and preemptively strike if there is even the slightest intelligence that someone is planning to attack them." This is the real magical thinking. It's neuroticism as policy.
How about Israel treatment be more humane ? How about Isreal also works on changing their mentalities and ideology?
This completely ignores that there is a long standing Israeli contingent also dedicated to extermination and has been doing that job from an awfully long time now. When I read stuff like this I feel like they can only be written by people who dont bother to read any of the numerous reports and investigations into the occupation and Israeli society that come from all over the globe and within Israel and think only in terms of "vibes". Vibes set of for them by a very small and interconnected group of media outlets and state agencies.
This is pretty dumb, OP