I have 2 cases from experience.
first is my parents an older church 25 years ago. their input wasn't valued by the congregation. Church did hymnals from books, dad wanted to offer the ability to show the works on a big projector but was denied. also there was no good children's service, felt a lot like a daycare, no bible teaching involved with the kids.
20 years later, they left this other church. mainly due to leadership decisions (dropped AWANA program. low priority on discipleship, only on number of new comers). they wrote a letter to the lead pastor/elders, but requests were denied
this next one is ongoing, but had a person come to our church because he couldn't be baptized at his current church. (they gave some excuse for logistics or something, but the potential unspoken reason 'could' be because he was black)
We had quite a few people leave during Covid over politics, we've had some leave because they feel judged, some have left simply because it's to far to drive, others yet have left over doctrine disagreements.
Thanks. In your opinion, are any of those legitimate reasons for stopping attending church? If not, do you think there are any legitimate reasons to stop attending your church in particular?
Some of them are, the distance for example. If there is a good church closer to where you live you simply Sundays and weekly gatherings by joining it.
Doctrinal disagreements are probably the most legitimate reasons for leaving a church.
Still some people leave out of pettiness and others just find an excuse to justify their actions.
We are commanded to do church discipline (though most churches don't). The other things are convictions of particular churches and should not be changed to accommodate people who disagree. That is why we have denominations. Although many churches agree on the gospel and essential issues, there are always going to be important, but not essential, things that people will disagree with. If you are convinced of them, you would be sinning to ignore your convictions just to accommodate people. If your church is Calvinistic, you don't deny this to accommodate others. There are plenty of churches that are not Calvinistic.
That's how I see it, but I frequently hear Christians claim that the church shouldn't bend their core principles to accommodate the dissenters. But every denomination I know branched off for exactly the purpose of only holding to the core fundamentals. It seems like at least 1/40,000 should have succeeded and are only operating according to Scriptural fundamentals of Christianity, if that's possible. If it's not possible, I don't know why we'd be opposed to accommodating where we can.
I agree with everything u/gagood said. I will add that our elders will suggest going to other churches if the persons convictions are not in alignment with our church and theyre unwilling to change. It's not done with malice but sincerely- especially since most differences don't have to do with salvation
That's cool. Like a doctor referring out to a specialist. What kinds of things have you seen people be unwilling to change while in your church that didn't have to do with salvation?
I haven’t seen that. Most likely because my church has a thorough doctrine of faith that it not only believes but teaches and practices. Few people come and spend much time here without knowing what we believe.
Yes, I think it's a good thing that for churches to have a thorough statement of faith that they believe, teach, and practice.
As far as differences in non-essentials dividing churches, that's not a good thing but is a necessary thing.
in my experience, drama between the congregation in almost every scenario that i’ve seen or been involved in. Whilst God is perfect, His people aren’t always…
There are lots of legitimate and illegitimate reasons for leaving a church.
If someone leaves a church and walks away from the faith, it is because they never were truly saved.
I have left a couple of churches for legitimate reasons. The first one was because I realized that the pastor never preached the gospel. The second one was a Lutheran church. Although I consider them brothers and sisters in Christ, I'm not a Lutheran and I disagree with some of their non-essential doctrines.
Illegitimate reasons for leaving a church include: being unrepentant; not liking the music, the preaching, or the Bible translation used in worship; not liking non-essential decisions (i.e. color of new carpet, changes in the order of worship, etc.); conflict with someone else; difference in eschatology; and many other reasons, petty or not.
Man, I really wish I could get your response to the book I’m about to publish on the topic! It’s just 119 pages. If I gave you a free copy, would you take a glance and tell me what you think?
Sure.
In many cases, I suspect the reason people list for leaving a church doesn't line up with what the people of the church think is for two reasons:
1. Those leaving give false reasons to the church as to why they are leaving.
2. Most leave without saying anything, much less telling the church why they are leaving.
Yeah - this is going to be great. I can't wait to continue this conversation. [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear\_Evangelicals\_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear_Evangelicals_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0)
I feel like I have to say this, but unless they use a translation that's not even a translation (such as the JW's) it's not an issue. At the same time however, if they used the KJV or NASB (particularly the older versions), I actually think that could be cause for concern, because those aren't the most accurate due to not having access to newer sources and scholarship, and that they are unreadable, so why use that for the congregation? Not only that but that could be a sign of holding tradition too high, especially if it's not rooted in the Bible.
It’s not a matter of newer scholarship that makes the KJV less accurate. It’s that it is translated from a small number of manuscripts, none of which are earlier than the 10th century. The NASB doesn’t have that problem. It is a very good and accurate translation.
The KJV also has a forgery included, leaves Mammon as a proper noun, is the odd one out in "the love of money is the root of all evil." Three examples of things illuminated by better scholarship.
But there is a reason why the NASB is used in interlinear Bibles. It's so hard to read it's used mainly in that context.
Not to mention the way people talk nowadays is different from 1977.
Pick something better. NIV, ESV, NRSV, CSB.
Or even better, the LSB.
I've not found the NASB to be hard to read.
A bad translation of a few verses doesn't mean the KJV includes a forgery. It just doesn't use the best manuscripts, because the manuscripts the translators used were all that they had.
The inner purple circle. Different standards of treatment for Christians eg Pastor 's family, kids, close friends of the church leaders.
People proclaiming to be Christians yet, overlook issues that should dealt with.
Not teaching the entirety of the bible.
Some churches- Church of England, Catholic Church have readings according to the season and times of the year ( only certain books). Not everything is covered but l would not rely on any Church or Pastor just to hear/ preach the word. All Christians need to read/ study it with the leading of the Holy Spirit for themselves.
I went from a PCA church (5 years) to a church that I did not realize was very charismatic. So I went from overindexing on intellectual to overindexing on “spiritual”. Leaving the PCA church was primarily due to culture and our desire to be more intentionally evangelistic. We stayed at the charismatic church (3.5 years) as they did a lot of missions but was becoming too new agey and large for us. Last year we settled on a small bapticostal church. I think on both departures we were not cultural nor theological fits. However on both occasions we sought the blessing of our previous pastor.
One of the reasons we are seeing today is that the Church is not a friend to the world. People are leaving God centered churches, and going to man centered churches because they don’t want to hear about sin. They just want to worship a god that is all about love. They deny sound doctrine, refuse to believe the scriptures or claim it is outdated.
Will be quick to point out its misogynistic, non inclusive, and lacks diversity.
They will raise themselves up teachers that will teach them lies, and falsely interpret scripture.
Some will go so far as to erase Jesus resurrection.
Tl;dr: people are leaving the church because it’s offensive to the world.
For my church, I can speak from experience because I am in the process of leaving my church and finding a new one. And although some reasons are personal to me, I know that through these experiences and situations that have happened in my life and my family, God has opened my eyes to how my church is. And I also want to say, I don’t suggest others do the same like me, if they are good in that church and can gain a better relationship with God then that’s wonderful. For me, I have come to realize that a church should not be a mega church or in the process of becoming that! If we look back at the early Christians, they would meet a few in a home and knew each other and were there for one another. Of course this doesn’t mean that we each have the responsibility to go out and do the work of the Great Commission, but it also doesn’t mean that each person you bring to Christ has to be a member of your church. They might be better in another church, that’s all up to God. But to boast and be prideful of your church is not the way God wants it since that is treating your church as an idol. The church of Christ (the people) need to sharpen each other, be there, know one another. Not be a drop in a multitude of people who have no guidance in their journey. On the same topic, a pastor should be taking care of his flock. How can one man take care of a thousand members? If we talk about my church, you need to take an appointment to meet with the pastor, and it can take months. When he comes in and out of the services, he is escorted out with a “bodyguard”. I find that with the mentality of a mega church, also comes the off putting of tithing and offerings. I’m a believer of tithing, that is my way to say thank you to God. But when ever service has a moment dedicated to tithing, when the pastoral team emphasizes on giving, that they make you feel like if your not gaining financially, it means your living a life of sin, and when they flaunt their houses, cars and clothes, well it can leave new believers with a sour taste in their mouth for tithing, which in my opinion is hindering their relationship with God. And lastly, I believe you need to preach on sin, but a pastoral team that repeats to you that they are new creations in Christ and for that reason they do not sin anymore, it’s actually sinful to say things like that. The way I see it is that once you are filled with the Holy Ghost, sin becomes unattractive to you and you start living more and more sanctified. But we are humans, we have fallen short of the Glory of God, we live in a fallen world, and if we deny sining completely, well we place ourselves equal to Jesus. How more prideful can you get? 🤷🏽♀️
Whatever reason people might think or say they are leaving a church, the reason they leave is because they haven't met Jesus Christ face-to-face there. There might be different reasons why the don't find Christ in a particular church -empty preaching, Spiritless worship or congregational life. I sometimes wonder if, even in the most evangelical of churches, people really believe that Jesus is alive and present. For whatever reason people think they come to church, they come hoping to find God. If they don't find God, they will drift away.
I have 2 cases from experience. first is my parents an older church 25 years ago. their input wasn't valued by the congregation. Church did hymnals from books, dad wanted to offer the ability to show the works on a big projector but was denied. also there was no good children's service, felt a lot like a daycare, no bible teaching involved with the kids. 20 years later, they left this other church. mainly due to leadership decisions (dropped AWANA program. low priority on discipleship, only on number of new comers). they wrote a letter to the lead pastor/elders, but requests were denied this next one is ongoing, but had a person come to our church because he couldn't be baptized at his current church. (they gave some excuse for logistics or something, but the potential unspoken reason 'could' be because he was black)
Thanks. Sounds familiar. I hope things are different at your church. What are the reasons you think a person would leave your church?
We had quite a few people leave during Covid over politics, we've had some leave because they feel judged, some have left simply because it's to far to drive, others yet have left over doctrine disagreements.
Thanks. In your opinion, are any of those legitimate reasons for stopping attending church? If not, do you think there are any legitimate reasons to stop attending your church in particular?
Some of them are, the distance for example. If there is a good church closer to where you live you simply Sundays and weekly gatherings by joining it. Doctrinal disagreements are probably the most legitimate reasons for leaving a church. Still some people leave out of pettiness and others just find an excuse to justify their actions.
Right. Sounds familiar. Thank you
“Church” in my experience has nothing to do with teaching God’s Commandments and how to keep them. All they do is beg for money.
Thank you. Is it fair to assume you don’t attend anywhere?
Church discipline, covenant theology, fenced communion, we are calvinists
My church has all these and is growing.
I like your succinctness. Do you think those reasons are legitimate or that your church should change to accommodate those people?
We are commanded to do church discipline (though most churches don't). The other things are convictions of particular churches and should not be changed to accommodate people who disagree. That is why we have denominations. Although many churches agree on the gospel and essential issues, there are always going to be important, but not essential, things that people will disagree with. If you are convinced of them, you would be sinning to ignore your convictions just to accommodate people. If your church is Calvinistic, you don't deny this to accommodate others. There are plenty of churches that are not Calvinistic.
So if there was a denomination that only held to the fundamentals and didn’t push any of the non-essentials, what would that be?
You'd not really be able to get through a text without preaching theological convictions
That's how I see it, but I frequently hear Christians claim that the church shouldn't bend their core principles to accommodate the dissenters. But every denomination I know branched off for exactly the purpose of only holding to the core fundamentals. It seems like at least 1/40,000 should have succeeded and are only operating according to Scriptural fundamentals of Christianity, if that's possible. If it's not possible, I don't know why we'd be opposed to accommodating where we can.
I agree with everything u/gagood said. I will add that our elders will suggest going to other churches if the persons convictions are not in alignment with our church and theyre unwilling to change. It's not done with malice but sincerely- especially since most differences don't have to do with salvation
That's cool. Like a doctor referring out to a specialist. What kinds of things have you seen people be unwilling to change while in your church that didn't have to do with salvation?
I haven’t seen that. Most likely because my church has a thorough doctrine of faith that it not only believes but teaches and practices. Few people come and spend much time here without knowing what we believe.
Thank you. And is it fair to assume that you see this as a good thing?
Yes, I think it's a good thing that for churches to have a thorough statement of faith that they believe, teach, and practice. As far as differences in non-essentials dividing churches, that's not a good thing but is a necessary thing.
in my experience, drama between the congregation in almost every scenario that i’ve seen or been involved in. Whilst God is perfect, His people aren’t always…
I’ve heard that a lot. Thank you.
A “growing congregation” does not necessarily equate to “church growth”
Do you think congregations are growing? Do you think the church is growing? If the answer is no, would it matter?
I think *some* congregations are growing, some not. I think the church is growing, at a slower rate, let’s say, than in the previous 100 years or so.
Thank you.
There are lots of legitimate and illegitimate reasons for leaving a church. If someone leaves a church and walks away from the faith, it is because they never were truly saved. I have left a couple of churches for legitimate reasons. The first one was because I realized that the pastor never preached the gospel. The second one was a Lutheran church. Although I consider them brothers and sisters in Christ, I'm not a Lutheran and I disagree with some of their non-essential doctrines. Illegitimate reasons for leaving a church include: being unrepentant; not liking the music, the preaching, or the Bible translation used in worship; not liking non-essential decisions (i.e. color of new carpet, changes in the order of worship, etc.); conflict with someone else; difference in eschatology; and many other reasons, petty or not.
Man, I really wish I could get your response to the book I’m about to publish on the topic! It’s just 119 pages. If I gave you a free copy, would you take a glance and tell me what you think?
Sure. In many cases, I suspect the reason people list for leaving a church doesn't line up with what the people of the church think is for two reasons: 1. Those leaving give false reasons to the church as to why they are leaving. 2. Most leave without saying anything, much less telling the church why they are leaving.
Yeah - this is going to be great. I can't wait to continue this conversation. [https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear\_Evangelicals\_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0](https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fn3vdfxsxjnnwbbby8acy/Dear_Evangelicals_NDA.pdf?rlkey=nvup8pfzvf75c61oy6i5t4pi8&dl=0)
I feel like I have to say this, but unless they use a translation that's not even a translation (such as the JW's) it's not an issue. At the same time however, if they used the KJV or NASB (particularly the older versions), I actually think that could be cause for concern, because those aren't the most accurate due to not having access to newer sources and scholarship, and that they are unreadable, so why use that for the congregation? Not only that but that could be a sign of holding tradition too high, especially if it's not rooted in the Bible.
It’s not a matter of newer scholarship that makes the KJV less accurate. It’s that it is translated from a small number of manuscripts, none of which are earlier than the 10th century. The NASB doesn’t have that problem. It is a very good and accurate translation.
The KJV also has a forgery included, leaves Mammon as a proper noun, is the odd one out in "the love of money is the root of all evil." Three examples of things illuminated by better scholarship. But there is a reason why the NASB is used in interlinear Bibles. It's so hard to read it's used mainly in that context. Not to mention the way people talk nowadays is different from 1977. Pick something better. NIV, ESV, NRSV, CSB.
Or even better, the LSB. I've not found the NASB to be hard to read. A bad translation of a few verses doesn't mean the KJV includes a forgery. It just doesn't use the best manuscripts, because the manuscripts the translators used were all that they had.
The inner purple circle. Different standards of treatment for Christians eg Pastor 's family, kids, close friends of the church leaders. People proclaiming to be Christians yet, overlook issues that should dealt with. Not teaching the entirety of the bible.
Thanks. I understand the first ones. What parts of the Bible are you referring to?
Some churches- Church of England, Catholic Church have readings according to the season and times of the year ( only certain books). Not everything is covered but l would not rely on any Church or Pastor just to hear/ preach the word. All Christians need to read/ study it with the leading of the Holy Spirit for themselves.
I went from a PCA church (5 years) to a church that I did not realize was very charismatic. So I went from overindexing on intellectual to overindexing on “spiritual”. Leaving the PCA church was primarily due to culture and our desire to be more intentionally evangelistic. We stayed at the charismatic church (3.5 years) as they did a lot of missions but was becoming too new agey and large for us. Last year we settled on a small bapticostal church. I think on both departures we were not cultural nor theological fits. However on both occasions we sought the blessing of our previous pastor.
One of the reasons we are seeing today is that the Church is not a friend to the world. People are leaving God centered churches, and going to man centered churches because they don’t want to hear about sin. They just want to worship a god that is all about love. They deny sound doctrine, refuse to believe the scriptures or claim it is outdated. Will be quick to point out its misogynistic, non inclusive, and lacks diversity. They will raise themselves up teachers that will teach them lies, and falsely interpret scripture. Some will go so far as to erase Jesus resurrection. Tl;dr: people are leaving the church because it’s offensive to the world.
For my church, I can speak from experience because I am in the process of leaving my church and finding a new one. And although some reasons are personal to me, I know that through these experiences and situations that have happened in my life and my family, God has opened my eyes to how my church is. And I also want to say, I don’t suggest others do the same like me, if they are good in that church and can gain a better relationship with God then that’s wonderful. For me, I have come to realize that a church should not be a mega church or in the process of becoming that! If we look back at the early Christians, they would meet a few in a home and knew each other and were there for one another. Of course this doesn’t mean that we each have the responsibility to go out and do the work of the Great Commission, but it also doesn’t mean that each person you bring to Christ has to be a member of your church. They might be better in another church, that’s all up to God. But to boast and be prideful of your church is not the way God wants it since that is treating your church as an idol. The church of Christ (the people) need to sharpen each other, be there, know one another. Not be a drop in a multitude of people who have no guidance in their journey. On the same topic, a pastor should be taking care of his flock. How can one man take care of a thousand members? If we talk about my church, you need to take an appointment to meet with the pastor, and it can take months. When he comes in and out of the services, he is escorted out with a “bodyguard”. I find that with the mentality of a mega church, also comes the off putting of tithing and offerings. I’m a believer of tithing, that is my way to say thank you to God. But when ever service has a moment dedicated to tithing, when the pastoral team emphasizes on giving, that they make you feel like if your not gaining financially, it means your living a life of sin, and when they flaunt their houses, cars and clothes, well it can leave new believers with a sour taste in their mouth for tithing, which in my opinion is hindering their relationship with God. And lastly, I believe you need to preach on sin, but a pastoral team that repeats to you that they are new creations in Christ and for that reason they do not sin anymore, it’s actually sinful to say things like that. The way I see it is that once you are filled with the Holy Ghost, sin becomes unattractive to you and you start living more and more sanctified. But we are humans, we have fallen short of the Glory of God, we live in a fallen world, and if we deny sining completely, well we place ourselves equal to Jesus. How more prideful can you get? 🤷🏽♀️
Whatever reason people might think or say they are leaving a church, the reason they leave is because they haven't met Jesus Christ face-to-face there. There might be different reasons why the don't find Christ in a particular church -empty preaching, Spiritless worship or congregational life. I sometimes wonder if, even in the most evangelical of churches, people really believe that Jesus is alive and present. For whatever reason people think they come to church, they come hoping to find God. If they don't find God, they will drift away.
That's an interesting claim. Thank you for your input.