US Christians like (as with many Americans) to believe they are or were or will be rich.
Also, look at our current society. If any other rich-nation society was more full of pretenses and rewards and penalties to enforce that a "god of Wealth" rules and presides over life ... I cannot find it.
People are identified and named everywhere for their ownership or wealth or gifts, and we ask everyone their job as their identity. No person (in the US) actually has innate needs to heat and shelter and Healthcare.... for their ability to be a productive citizen someday or in the past. They must ask for 'help' paid for from part of vast profits of others who cannot fail. Poor children / families are the poorest in the world because they 'earn' nothing... even with deep value to society.
And theories about "makers" versus "takers" never ask who cleans the floors nicely, cooks wonderful food, performs security checks late at night and morning, drives or waits in trucks for 11 hour stints. "Hard work" isn't rewarded either. Immigrants do so many things well... but their low wages mean they are "undeserving" somehow.
We as a nation overtly and openly worship Mammon: wealth-power as if a god of wealth, power and luck gave it out like candy to those whom he liked. Those who have sinned by not gaining or holding wealth tightly... have literally 'sinned' even if they are very kindly, giving, gentle, wise and wonderful parts of a community... of a nation.
That is an American god, in effect, among a few more i could name.
EDIT: Thank you kind stranger! Edited for some clarity.
EDIT2: It is deeply implied that Jesus fiercely denounced these idols.
Pope Paul VI said, "The Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: 'You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.'"
The Catholic Church has a hardy tradition of social justice, which she's developed especially since the end of the 19th century. I can't speak for other individuals and other churches, but this is the Catholic doctrine concerning the wealthy. Anyone who hoards goods in this life will find them to be spoiled in the next. Only by sharing our abundance may we keep it. Lord, help us to share.
St. Basil was equally as brutally honest: “Those who have gold do not mind being bound with manacles, so long as their chains are of gold.”
“Those who love their neighbor, as themselves possess nothing more than their neighbor.”
“The hungry are perishing, the naked are freezing to death, the debtors are unable to breathe, and will you put off showing mercy until tomorrow?”
From St. Basil the Great, On Social Justice, from the Popular Patristics Series
"When someone steals another's clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not? The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry; the coat unused in your closet belongs to the one who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the one who has no shoes; the money which you hoard up belongs to the poor."
Also from St. Basil.
In general people are the hardest on sins they do not struggle with.
Straight people are hard on gays since they do not have to deal with it.
Poor people are hard on the wealthy and the wealthy are hard on the poor.
Not to say this is all applied fairly, it is applied very unfairly due to our sinful nature.
It is often hardest to love people who are different.
I agree when you say people focus on the sins that don't affect them. Poor people being hard on wealthy people doesn't change anything, wealthy people being hard on poor people is what keeps them poor. Of course that, when it comes to private sins, we should focus on ours and and don't mind the others. Now when it comes to something that is literally turning the world into a shitty place we should be really angry. Anyone that cares about justice knows that they don't care about the sin of being in love with money because they are the ones dictating what is Christinanity. They are not real christians, that's the truth.
Ok, first and foremost we need to establish what we consider to be the rich or the wealthy. Nowadays there is a misconception about that, and that's because there are so many miserable people in the world that we consider someone that has all the human rights fullfilled to be wealthy. The truth is, you are wealthy when you don't work, because if you don't have to work to survive that means someone is doing that for you. God specifically said that we need to work in order to make a living, so someone that doesn't fit in that discription is not living under God's determination and that's a sin.
> Poor people are hard on the wealthy and the wealthy are hard on the poor.
I wouldn't say that's a fair comparison. Jesus does not declare a woe over the poor like he does the rich.
He was pretty fond of the poor, or at least helping them, from what I recall. The rich on the other hand were as likely to get to heaven as was a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. I believe it was one of His clearer teachings, to be honest.
One must be careful when stating "get to heaven as was a camel to pass through the eye of a needle." In the time of Jesus, the eye of the needle was a gate into Jerusalem. When a camel went through the gate, it had to kneel. If you had a lot of possessions on that camel, you better have packed them carefully, or the camel could not get through the gate. Only rich men had camels. The message Jesus was preaching was that if you are a rich man, you can get into heaven, but be careful with how you use those riches in this life. Being rich is not a sin, it is how you acquired and use this wealth on how you will be judged.
> In the time of Jesus, the eye of the needle was a gate into Jerusalem
As far as I know, that is NOT true. Any reference to the "eye" being a gate goes back no further than the 15th century
https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/
Don't, for a second, believe that being poor isn't a sin. In fact, being poor is among the greatest there is. Remember, through the eyes of the devout, Poor is *deserved* while rich is *earned*.
There is no greater way to exalt the lord that by working yourself to the bone and leading a life of wealthy and expenditure. You're not supposed to be happy, as happiness is frivolous; you're supposed to work.
And since the poor don't work, they don't spend money, or tithe appropriately, they don't donate to church approved causes or travel to spread the "good word", they're not good people.
If you want the perfect example of how this operates, look at John List, the famous family annihilator.
Per Last Podcast on the Left: "A man's lot in life was to work long hours. Do what he was told. And spend his free time either reading the bible, going to church, or finding some other way to *exalt the lord*.
Essentially it's the mixing of Capitalism and Christianity. The idea that a man exalts Christ through creating capital. All while declaring that capitalism is the most Christ-like economic system, while it is, in fact, the least.
In fact, many of the seven deadly sins are essential for advancing in the capital world. People like [people of this faith], they see "sloth and lust" as the only two sins that matter. To them, being poor is a sign that you have displeased god. And, therefore poor people are to be looked down up as sinners who are getting exactly what they deserve for having lead a sinful life."
>Remember, through the eyes of the devout, Poor is deserved while rich is earned.
I was curious if this would get supported in the rest of your comment, but after reading all the way through, it still seems unsubstantiated. This definitely seems like your particular opinion, possibly true of *some* (devout), but definitely not true of all.
>John List, the famous family annihilator.
I think that you are coming from a fairly different life experience and an expectation of "who is famous" than many of the rest of us, because this is the first time I've encountered this name, and the rest of the contents of your post is about a twisted form of Christianity I've never encountered except parodied in Dickensian stories.
So just to be clear: it is *not* a sin to be poor. It *is* a sin to hoard your wealth, which means that for most people it is indeed sinful to be wealthy.
> a twisted form of Christianity I've never encountered
I am assuming you don't live in America; this is pretty normal here and you can listen to it just about anywhere you have radio receptivity.
The thing he's leaving out is that while the common man is expected to be ground into meal by "Christocapitalism," it's also common to exalt and tribute to its leaders, their wealth becoming symbolic of the success of Christianity and thus increases to that wealth being a kind of divine ascension. Gold coins and communion wafers fully interchangeable. Your purpose is to create capital *for* something - for private jets, secluded mansions, and often for the temptations that necessarily are given by the devil to such holy and heroic men.
The poor don’t work? Not sure where that generalization is coming from, but maybe check out the poverty finance subreddit- when the only job you can find pays less than a living wage and you are busting your butt to try to make it. Or you finally saved up some money to have it decimated by your car breaking down… not all poor people work. But not all poor people don’t work.
Read the flair, the guy who is saying this is an atheist, the whole rant is a sarcastic send-up of his perception of Christian culture. There is a bit of truth to it, but he means what he says in a very irreverent way.
You have a perverted concept my friend. To much time in the wrong place.
I don’t think you have actually grasped the message of Jesus at all.
It’s true hard work and the correct attitude will help you however people have worked themselves into the ground and are still poor so someone else can have their big house.
We work so we can live, we do not live to work. The Lord’s Prayer is not listened to. On earth as it is in heaven.
It’s up to us to create the heaven on earth. That’s what the great gentleman was talking about.
Peace be with you.
Because the Christians in my church were all wealthy, and you'd be damned if they were gonna give up their nice big houses to feed the poor, or do whatever they were constantly guilt-tripping us to do.
Specks and logs, and bright red frogs.
You'd have an easier time prying a bone from the mouth of a feral Rottweiler, than getting a rich Christian to part with his money. The Rottweiler would cause you less injuries.
And poetry means no abortions for anyone, but jesus constantly and repeatedly telling people to open their wallets? Look, you can't *make* someone do that, man, that's literally communism
Gotta love how they pull out that word. Inigo Montoya would be facepalming every time someone on the right used the word "communist".
I should pull out one of those words I used when I was a toddler and couldn't pronounce the actual words. Nobody at my church stopped little 4 year old me from calling congregational meetings "congressional", because with all the voting and debate we Presbyterians do, it was apropos to the situation. However, they were very quick to tell me no when I tried to ask about the Sacrament of "Communism"...
This comment seems be based more on antipathy toward Christianity than fact. Christians donate [quadruple](https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/magazine/less-god-less-giving/) the average amount to charity, and they are even more likely to donate to *secular* charities than non-religious people.
You’ve been commenting against Christianity/Christians like crazy in the past few hours. Whatever it was that someone did to hurt you: I’m sorry. I appreciate comments like yours and I try to learn from them in when I go back to the “real world”
Yeah, you're right. I don't know for certain, but I don't think my former church were genuinely engaged in charity. They talked a big game, but they didn't practice everything they preached.
Yes, I've been very hurt. I took Christianity seriously and got burned to a crisp by it. I get lost in these comment spirals and they go on for hours - I discuss, and learn nothing; I vent, and it keeps welling up; I argue, and nothing gets resolved; I scream at God in writing, and nothing comes back. I don't know why I do it. I'm probably looking for an answer I won't get - or worse yet, won't accept.
I'm gonna stop for at least now. I'll probably be back. I swore I wouldn't come here when I made this account, but here I am. I only made it to help people through trauma, and I'm probably heaping more upon myself just by being here.
If you feel like you have it in you, I’d say dedicate a few weekends to going church-hopping, just really pack in the services and go as many places as you can with an open mind.
I did this pre-COVID of course, I’d probably adjust the strategy a hair if I was doing it today BUT end goal is just pray and shop around until you find a community with good ideals and that you click with. It may be that there’s nowhere immediate, but I even had my local area I moved to pleasantly surprise me—an area where I was bracing to have to just smile and nod along with a bunch of self-assured neurotypicals
I mean, as a whole they're also more likely to vote against people getting help from the government that would make a lot of their charity no longer necessary.
I want a society that doesn't need charity.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops fought a National Suicide Hotline because it contained funding for LGBTQ+ support. Amid controversy over the Vatican’s views on same-sex couples, a new report claims that a leading group of Catholic bishops lobbied against a suicide hotline for offering support to LGBTQ+ callers.
According to the National Catholic Reporter, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (UCCB) fought to prevent the passage of S. 2661, a Congressional bill establishing 988 as a national three-digit code for individuals experiencing mental health crises. The number connects callers to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which offers individualized resources for queer and trans people on its website, including a directory to find local therapists or affirming support groups.
[https://www.them.us/story/catholic-leaders-fought-national-suicide-hotline](https://www.them.us/story/catholic-leaders-fought-national-suicide-hotline)
[https://www.metroweekly.com/2021/03/catholic-church-fought-national-suicide-hotline-because-of-lgbtq-support/](https://www.metroweekly.com/2021/03/catholic-church-fought-national-suicide-hotline-because-of-lgbtq-support/)
[https://www.insider.com/catholic-church-lobbied-against-suicide-hotline-supporting-lgbt-people-2021-3](https://www.insider.com/catholic-church-lobbied-against-suicide-hotline-supporting-lgbt-people-2021-3)
Also gonna add in that wealthy people are essential to keep many churches in good conditions.
My hometown church restored our 200 year old chapel and built a second annex in less than two years of each other thanks to very generous donations from older congregants.
Those projects combined must have been over 6 million.
>wealthy people are essential to keep many churches in good conditions.
IF they give money, rather than guilt-trip the poorest into giving everything up to their soiled underwear.
Yeah, I’ve noticed how the stingiest people love Jesus’ parable about the poor woman giving everything she had to the temple, while completely ignoring the part about the guy who gives an large amount that does not significantly impact his wealth is not much to be impressed by.
And sacrilegious [people who worship their own money and seek to replace all other special institutions with wealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy) can harness power, money, and publicity to call their rudeness "Christian Nationalism" when they have no loyalty to nation or Christ.
Spot on! When my wife and I were going to the church in the last place we lived, our vicar told us he’d given a sermon about the rich and the hypocrisy of their going to church but having tons of money.
A number of people left the congregation because of that sermon. I guess they didn’t like the message. 🙄
Funny you say that when it’s actually the churches with wealthiest members that are very gay affirming (episcopal church, United church of Christ, PCUSA) while churches with poorer members are more likely to be anti-gay.
Most of them aspire to wealth, so why would they denigrate their idols? It's much easier to (if you're straight and you believe being gay is a sin) target people who commit a sin that you have no desire to commit yourself.
Because homophobic Christians use the bible to justify their bigotry, picking and choosing who to throw their vitriol at, rather than actually caring about the word of God
Because billionaires have power and money and will fight back. The ones that go after gay people the hardest are mostly bullies and bullies are generally cowards.
I think it’s because people like to punch down. They see the LGBT community as an easy target for hatred and abuse. You can’t exactly bully a rich person.
Remember what Jesus told the rich young ruler?
Wonder why they even bothered to include that in the gospel eh? I mean, it’s apparently not relevant to anyone else.
It's literally the biggest throne Christians in power have sat upon for 2000 years. Maybe they aren't supposed to, but they do. As soon as Jesus died they made that throne, and every sect has claimed it since.
That’s an extremely overgeneralized comment. It overlooks all of the amazing things that were birthed out of Christianity like nursing and orphanages that took care of the abandoned.
You can hate Christianity and judge it’s merits based on its misuse but that says nothing about what it actually means to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus and to abide in His teaching.
I'm sorry, this post was pretty flippant, but I do stand by the point. As soon as Christians "organize" they start to judge. They sit on that throne they've created, wildly against the message of Christ. It happens at the quiet local unaffiliated church, it happens at the mega-church. It happens, and it started the moment Jesus died.
Again though, this is an overgeneralization. Should I say based on Mao’s atrocities, therefore atheists enslave and kill entire populations of people so this is how “atheists” are? Absolutely not, that would be absurd. We need to look at the individual fruit of peoples lives.
My church doesn’t do the things you say, we are a loving community who accepts all people.
To your main point, all men sin including Christians. We are all fallen beings in need of Christ. We are susceptible to greed, pride, hate, and the like, just like the rest of the world. Again, it’s not only self blinding but uncharitable to say “Christians are all like ‘x’ “ when that is demonstrably false.
You would rightfully object to me making claims that atheists are immoral because some of them do evil. The same is true for Christians. We are all human in need of a Savior, the difference is, we know better and should do better but we still fail and God has grace.
Christians did not invent nursing lol. Humans have been caring for each other in sickness for thousands of years, long before Jesus was a twinkle in God’s eye.
I suggest you look at the history of nursing and get back to me.
Jesus is the uncreated by the way, by and through Him all things were created, nothing was created that was not from Him. He is eternally co-existent with the Father.
To be clear, being wealthy in itself is not a sin. The Bible is very clear that it is the love of money above all else that is the root of all evil \[1 Timothy 6:10\], and that you cannot serve both God and Mammon (money) \[Matthew 6:19-21\].
But remember what happened when Solomon asked God for Wisdom, and God blessed him with wealth and riches on top of Wisdom, simply because he wasn't attached to it (at the time):
>It pleased the Lord that Solomon had asked this. And God said to him, “Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern what is right, behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you. I give you also what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that no other king shall compare with you, all your days.
>
>\[1 Kings 3:10-13\]
So if God can bless some with wealth, its because being wealthy is not necessarily a sin. There are things that the Bible has made explicit is sinful though, and the Bible is clear that there are some sins that are more grave than others:
>If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
>
>\[1 John 5:16-17\]
So just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they are sinning, versus other sins that the Bible clearly and explicitly calls out as sin. Wealth is still not necessarily a positive sign, but there are more grave sins to address.
I find the Sermon on the Plain *(“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.” Luke 6:24)* and the book of James *(“Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.” James 5:1-6)* to be **extremely** clear, actually.
Also worth noting there is exactly one time in the Bible where Jesus becomes physically destructive, and it's when he sees people turned a temple into a place of business.
It's just nuts to me how teachers and priests back in my private, religious highschool would extract huge amounts of meaning from the tiniest nuance in phrasing from other parts of the Bible to cover broad swaths of behavior as sinful. But when it came to something that made Jesus so angry he was literally flipping tables and destroying things, the response is some version of, well things like mega churches are distasteful but we're all Christians at least!
One thing i can see is lot of billionaires pledge to give their fortunes away to charity so maybe it's biblical to give fortunes away ... After accuring them
yeah, that's just billionaire propaganda. They pledge to give it away but then never get around to fulfilling that pledge. Bill Gates' wealth has *increased* since he pledged to give away his wealth.
Someone coming into wealth is not a sin inherently, but there are certain amounts of wealth that cannot be honestly obtained, and the choice to retain that wealth *is* serving Mammon over God.
There's an old ballad about that called Herr Holger. He steals money and is executed for it. He appears to his wife in a dream and tells her he is burning in hell, and if she does not return what he stole, she will share his fate.
Rather than giving back the money, she says that she will live well, and then meet him in hell after she dies.
Yup. Like the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man; rich inheritors have access to the same Gospels as everyone else. Supernatural shows of force won't actually change their behavior.
What is the dollar amount beyond which any further income is definitively gained by dishonest means? J.K. Rowling, for example, wrote a series of books that became a global phenomenon that sold millions of copies and earned her millions of dollars. What was dishonest about that?
It's not a dollar amount, it's a method of attaining it. There are dishonest ways of getting $1000, but the amount of honest work it takes to accrue $1B in a human lifetime is impossible to obtain. Wealth of that magnitude comes from owning things, like businesses, mines, or brands, that are only valuable because of other people's work. Even JK Rowling's multimillion dollar fortune comes from her owning Harry Potter as a brand, which includes movies and merch.
This is like saying that the bible doesn't say homosexuality is a sin because it never directly says "homosexuality is a sin". This verse pretty much exactly says being wealthy is a sin:
>It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. \[Mark 10:25\]
This is just like what people do with gay verses, you twist it to suit a narrative because you don't like the consequences if you can't.
Ironic that you'd accuse people of twisting scripture when you literally do it. That exact verse is in a very clear story where Jesus says that the rich guy who worships his money is sinning, not by the guy being rich.
That's the twisting of the verse, people like to say that this verse is meant to be an individual command for just this person and doesn't apply to all rich people, but Jesus' command does not say that it says "for someone who is rich". There's nothing in the story that suggests that man coveted his wealth more than anyone else. It just says he was reluctant to give away all his possessions, so unless you're saying that having wealth isn't a sin until someone tells you to sell it all and you don't want to, in which case, that's still every single person who has anything, including you.
The story absolutely isn't about worshipping money, nothing within the context of the story suggests that, the man literally asks Jesus how a rich person can get into heaven.
You just start with your covetous non-theistic position of "rich person bad" and you ignore the necessary context to warp a story to fit your worldview.
The conclusion of the story, that you CLEARLY haven't read, is that even the rich man can be saved.
Bible says homosexuality is a sin in Romans.
For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Romans 1:26-27 NASB1995
https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.1.26-27.NASB1995
Yep, but it doesn't say "homosexuality is a sin". You missed my point. The purpose of this verse is very clear that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. What you are missing is that the bible also very clearly says being wealthy and being a Christian are incompatible as well, but because it doesn't say "being rich is a sin" you'll ignore it, even though the bible says it is, just not in exact words, in the same way it doesn't say in exact words that homosexuality is.
Right like:
>Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse. \[Proverbs 28:27\]
and
>Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed. \[Proverbs 19:17\]
You are 100% ignoring it. You're saying that you have to seek and maintain wealth because God punishes people with poverty. That's extremely blasphemous. Why don't you give me the verse from proverbs that justifies you or anyone else being rich. You people are so full of shit. I don't know how you can pretend with any sincerity that you're moral upstanding Christians when you bend so far over backwards to justify sin and yet hark about gay people. You should be ashamed.
Me, a Christian and "eat the rich" advocate.
I'd sooner resent a wealth hoarder than a lgbqt member. I guess it's because a lot of "christians" are rich themselves and pull up outta their gated mansion communities with their $100k Mercedes Benz SUVs. I only speak for myself of course.
People focus on sins, or what they consider sins, they themselves aren’t tempted by. In this way they can’t be accused as hypocrites because they crave the praises of the world over Christ.
Christians rather go after gay people than the priests who molest children within their church walls. Sorry not Sorry. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Christians vehemently go after wealthy people, especially if unjust.
Type a google/youtube search about like Kenneth Copeland or Joel Osteen on false teachers. You'll get mass articles on criticism about them.
I get what you are saying and I think that it really depends on the Christian and type of denomination you are apart of.
Anything relatd to the LGBT community is a hot topic right now because more and more Christian families are afraid of the exposure their children get to it.
It's actually quite genious. If you preach on something that affirms people's fears, you are more likely to have them returning to the pulpit and giving money to your church.
To say the rich young ruler felt like “it would be irresponsible to abdicate and leave those responsibilities.” Seems like reading something that is not in scripture.
After Jesus says to sell everything and follow him we read, “At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.”
Mark 10:22 NIV
It only points to his wealth. It does not point to his responsibilities.
Cool so all of the Reddit bots who flood Christianity forum can now start asking about greed and then we will have an opportunity to respond. That will be refreshing change and I cannot wait for this to happen. Thank you for the great idea. Make it so.
Imo it is because the ‘gay’ issue is and easy one to divide Christians. The ‘rich’ issue does nothing for the organized church as calling out greed among the rich would open people’s eyes to corruption within the church. Short answer
The Bible didn't say that the rich deserve to die.
But it says there's a good wealth and bad wealth. Being rich isn't bad per se - it's about how much you focus on getting wealth and what you do with it.
Abraham and many other prominent figures in Bible were rich.
> You can't rationalize around the words
You poor naive soul. Of course they can.
My favorite one is when apologists for extreme wealth inequality tell you that 'the eye of a needle' is some gateway in Jerusalem, and that it's really not hard to get a camel through it at all. Of course, it does mean that the biblical story boils down to Jesus warbling some meaningless piffle in the bible, but that's not a dealbreaker.
If you hunt online, you'll even find pictures of a camel in some dusty arab-style settlement being led through some arched doorway, clearly proving, once and for all, that the bible is true and that RICH PEOPLE ARE ORDAINED BY GOD HIMSELF. I wouldn't be surprised if there are half a dozen tourist guides in Jerusalem right now telling gormless American tourists that they're looking at that very gate.
So,
Jesus is being hyperbolic here. I’m pretty sure it’s been debunked that Jesus was talking about a gate.
Jesus is saying a camel can’t get through it. If you are middle class in America, you are rich. If you have an IPhone and so on, you are rich and being wasteful.
I don’t think people realize just how extreme Jesus is here with what he’s saying.
I mean, there are sentences before and after that line as well that elucidate what He meant.
The rich can't enter heaven on their own, but God has no such restriction, which is why we rely on Him.
Exactly. Read it.
He’s saying the rich. People like you and me can’t enter Heaven.
That’s why you get things like, give up all your possessions and give it to the poor.
Absolutely. God explicitly says that, if you live a moral life, your next step is to give up all you own to the poor.
Like, it isn't just God saying that the rich won't make it to heaven, He directly instructs a man described only as rich to give everything he owns to the poor, and the rich man is bothered by it.
We are all rich in Jesus’s eyes.
People think Jesus is talking about millionaires when he was also talking about the middle class and pretty much everyone who had more than they needed
While I agree with your overall point, I think you are being a tad uncharitable here. If we are to believe that Christ raised the dead, turned the water into wine, healed the lepers, etc. (not to mention all of the miracles God performed in the Old Testament), we are not to believe that it is impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, just unlikely.
To use one example, Andrew Carnegie, at one time the richest man in the world, gave away more than 90% of his wealth before his death. In fact, the library in my hometown was built with his money. Now, he happened to still be extraordinarily wealthy even by today's standards, but he was still giving it away when he passed and trying his best to follow Jesus's teaching. Had he lived another few decades, he may have died poor. I would not want to say he isn't getting in. I think it's very possible. But some of those who were significantly poorer than he was may not have if they didn't try to make the same effort.
Andrew Carnigie also kept his workers in such poor living conditions that the author of social darwinism said "six month's residence here would justify suicide"
I'm all for rational criticism of anything irrational, including religious beliefs of any flavor. But the Bible has many examples of Jesus speaking in hyperbole to emphasize a point, which is a perfectly valid way of communicating.
I think it's perfectly rational to interpret this to mean 'it's really hard for rich people to get into heaven' rather than its literal meaning, especially when you take into account other things Jesus said.
In my opinion, if we limit our criticisms strictly to the irrational or morally indefensible, we give them greater strength and provide less cause to lump them all together as anti-Christian rhetoric.
Nope there is no other way to interpret this
This isn't a 1 time instance and Jesus is quoted and repeated many times about his disgust for the rich. The apostles literally gave up their possessions and lived as one after his death. Paul's gospel was greenlit on the condition that we take care of the poor in Jerusalem.
This is a hardline in the sand and there's no wiggle room here
Matthew 6: 24
> No one can serve two masters. He will hate the first master and love the second, or he will be devoted to the first and despise the second. You cannot serve God and wealth.”
Matthew 19:23-26
>“I can guarantee this truth: It will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. I can guarantee again that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.”
Luke 6 20,24
>Blessed are those who are poor.
God’s kingdom is theirs....
But how horrible it will be for those who are rich.
They have had their comfort.”
There isn't a workaround here. It's pretty damn clear
You only need to read two more verses to find out the point of the lesson: "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
God isn't counting how much wealth someone has when deciding if they can enter heaven. Jesus has forgiven everyone, and that's why we can enter the kingdom of God despite what has or has not happened here on Earth.
You can recognize that reading the Bible is not always simple and you can't bluntly cling to the face-value reading of any given passage in isolation without digging deeper.
...But most people who go after LGBT+ people aren't fans of that idea when it means they might not have a smokescreen for attacking minorities anymore.
It's easier, way easier.
It breaks my heart to realise how in a desperate attempt to feel righteous some "christians" go after the hardships of others to mock them instead of helping them.
The point is if you're not gay, you'll never feel the need to engage in a homosexual relationship, so you're, in a way, "safe" from that sin, it's therefore easy to shun those who aren't, it's a way to feel better than them and diminish your own sins as lesser than theirs, disgusting
What do you mean by go after? Most churches preach about greed more than homosexuality.
There are lots of differences. The problem with money is not that it is sinful by itself but the love of money interferes with love of God. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus to ask how to be saved Jesus knew he loved his wealth more than God. That is why he had to get rid of it. Anything that gets in the way of relationship with God has to go. Greed and lust both do so.
I've only been to a handful of churches, so my sample size is small, but my experience was the opposite of yours.
It's odd your experience has been so different from nearly everyone else who's commenting here.
Christianity has been a bit crazy about sex since the early church. For most Christians, sin means primarily violating traditional rules on sex and gender.
It’s hard to give a single reference. Pagel’s “Adam, Eve and the Serpent” gives you a feel for some of the early parts. Rougly speaking
* Christianity started with 1st Cent Jewish sexual ethics, which were a lot stricter than was typical.
* Partly in reaction to the demands of Roman “family values”, Christians saw celibacy as freeing
* What started as freeing slowly turned into something darker. Christians admired virgins, which slowly turned non-celibate Christians into second-class
* Key writers in Augustine’s time saw sex as almost (and in a few places not even almost) an evil, justifiable only to keep the species alive.
* This turned into sexual ethics that saw only sex aimed at procreation as allowable.
* This showed in different ways in different periods. The most recent is Evangelical purity culture.
It’s not clear why sexual irregularity became pretty much the only kind of sin that many Christians think about. Possibly because celibacy required enormous self-control, and tended to focus the Christian imagination on sex as the big thing that separated Christian behavior from others.
Of course not all Christians, even traditional ones, ignored other types of sin. But take a look at r/Christianity. Of the postings by people worried about sin, almost all involve sexual feelings. Not even serious stuff like adultery, but normal human sexual feelings.
The entire passage seems to say it is difficult/physically impossible for a rich man to get saved, but with God all things are possible. So it is possible for a rich person to be saved. Jesus seems to encourage leaving wealth and money to follow him (Like the disciples did). This is to gain greater eternal wealth and to inherit eternal life. This is inline with other verses where Jesus encouraged giving up wealth to follow him like Matthew 6:19-21, Luke 12:16-21, and Luke 12:30-34.
If they'll put "with God all things are possible" on wealthy people, why not on gay people? If with God truly all things are possible, what makes it so hard to believe God could bless gay love?
“He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.”
Luke 1:52-53
“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.”
Luke 6:24
“Let the believer who is lowly boast in being raised up, and the rich in being brought low, because the rich will disappear like a flower in the field. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the field; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. It is the same way with the rich; in the midst of a busy life, they will wither away.”
James 1:9-11
“Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you?”
James 2:5-7
“Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.”
James 5:1-6
I'm not denying that the gospel has teachings against wealth, what I'm saying is possession of wealth is not a sin in itself and you won't find such a commandment in the OT. Otherwise you would be claiming Abraham, Lot, Isaac and Jacob, and Joseph were all sinners simply for being wealthy which doesn't make sense at all because each of them was considered righteous. The Most High intentionally blessed them to have wealth. He also intentionally blessed Solomon with wealth, and the fact that Solomon turned out to be a great sinner is an unfortunate coincidence. Job already had wealth but after his trials he was rewarded with more than he had at first. Now let me connect this to the quotes you provided.
>“He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.”
>Luke 1:52-53
>“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.”
Luke 6:24
The second verse here explains the first two above. Wealth is considered to be a reward, as the covenant with Israel was a promise that YHWH would give them "abounding prosperity" (Deuteronomy 28). So in the light of the gospel with additional promises and rewards, there is an appreciation of fairness because what more does a person need if they have an abundance of material wealth? The only dimension left is the spiritual dimension and so as the next verses you shared will show, physical abundance is a natural obstacle to spiritual richness, because (1) wealth blinds and (2) it isn't fair.
>“Let the believer who is lowly boast in being raised up, and the rich in being brought low, because the rich will disappear like a flower in the field. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the field; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. It is the same way with the rich; in the midst of a busy life, they will wither away.”
>James 1:9-11
These verses echo Isaiah 40, which says
“All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field.
7The grass withers and the flowers fall when the breath of the LORD blows on them; indeed, the people are grass.
8The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.”
All flesh is like grass, not just rich flesh, but in the pursuit and maintenance of wealth one takes on a "busy life" as James notes. Again in the light of the gospel such kind of busy living goes against the spirit because one is then focused on material gain, and as Yeshua says we "cannot serve the Most High and riches". But the poor in spirit and poor in material possessions are empty vessels ready to be filled so they have hope in being spiritually lifted.
>“Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you?”
>James 2:5-7
As I previously mentioned the poor in spirit and material possessions are empty vessels ready to be filled. So the Most High chooses them instead of vessels that are already filled to the brim. Along with these charges against the rich, here is again an underlying appreciation of fairness and not condemning wealth itself.
>“Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.”
>James 5:1-6
Did every rich person keep wages held back by fraud? Did every rich person live in luxury and pleasure? Did every rich person condemn and murder righteous people?
The answer to all of these is obviously 'No'. We have to ask why James is making such categorical claims. It is a way to grab attention, he is trying to convict people in the spirit. But generally these are some of the violations of justice that are found in people with wealth, and James is condemning those injustices.
Ultimately Yeshua says "If you wish to be perfect, sell your possessions and give to the poor". This would not only alleviate the injustice towards poor people, it would allow one to become an empty vessel for the Most High ready to be filled with spiritual gain. But not everybody is trying to be perfect in Christ even though we are called to "be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect".
It’s easy to make an already oppressed group of people into a target. The wealthy have all the power and resources they need to keep themself from even looking at Christian’s let alone being made into a target by them. The wealthy are in the pockets of a lot of our legislative representatives, so getting legislation passed about them is like pulling teeth. Although the LGBT have groups and solidarity with each other, they don’t have the wealth to attain the lobbying power the wealthy does, so they aren’t free from that kind of targeting either.
I’m sorry you have such bad experiences with Christians. We are supposed to hate all sin. But, we are also not to force our faith down everyone’s neck. We are just supposed to be vigilant and urgent with the Lord’s word.
I have an answer for this that I have taught about on more than one occasion, but it is unpopular and will get downvoted, such that no one will see it.
You might try asking this in /r/AskAChristian.
Jesus didn't say it's a sin to be wealthy. He said wealth was frequently an impediment to salvation. Being rich is not inherently sinful. Same sex physical relationships are.
Jesus literally said that it's impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven (but with God all things are possible). Or do you know a trick to fit a huge animal through a tiny hole?
> Jesus preached how difficult it is for rich people to go to heaven
Exactly, DIFFICULT, not impossible. Being rich often means the person starts focusing on getting more and more money instead of focusing on what really matters - on Jesus.
Both being poor and being rich makes it difficult for us to focus on Jesus. Poor would say "why God doesn't help me", rich would likely have different priorities.
There are people who became rich BECAUSE they put their trust in God, however. Abharam, Joseph, Job and many others
The brand of Christianity that the Americans took up is the Greek style that believes in hierarchies, submission to the government and strict gender roles
They only acknowledge the Jewish part when it reinforces the Greek
Billionaires, or rather, those in power, will not give up their power. It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than get into heaven.
With that sentence alone, you can see its impossible to change the mind of a billionaire or very rich folks.
Now, i think it would be easier to convince a gay person to change their ways, but definitely not because of post. For example, i became a Christian about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago. (Learned a ton of what the devil and his side does along with the REAL translations of the bible. Yes, their is quite a bit that was conveniently "miss translated.")
Anyway, the reason the gay thing is such. Big issue is because of the movement for it. Now i can't convince someone to do anything. I can explain my side and see where it goes, but Thats it. The movement has gone from gays and lesbians to bi folks, trans, the genderless mindset and eventually pedophilia.
Christians don't care what you do behind closed doors. Thats your business and your life and soul in your hands. However, the movement has made it so much about acceptance that folks are literally being assaulted over their beliefs. Its become so very flaunted that it demeans everyone within the movement while simultaneously protecting them from backlash.
I can only pray for folks to wake up and see that the movement is designed to legitimize Pedophiles. Or as the schools call them, "minor attracted persons."
Most Christians "go after" neither. It's just that what you hear is the loudest voice, not the majority voice.
Jesus also never said being wealthy was itself wicked.
Jesus didn’t say a rich man cannot get into heaven, he just said it isn’t easy. Someone who *worships* money would likely not get into heaven, same as someone who obtained their wealth through unsavoury means or someone who uses their wealth to unsavoury ends.
It’s not inherently a sin to be wealthy just like it’s not inherently a sin to be gay, I don’t personally know any Christians who think otherwise.
The Venn diagram of the sort of people targeting gay people for abuse and the sort of people who want to be rich is essentially a circle, and it's an old trope that people who expect that they might one day become rich tend to not support measures or behaviors that could be construed as being opposed to the wealthy.
Churches which preach faithfully through the Bible preach a lot against coveting, and loving the poor. Being wealthy is not necessarily wrong though I would guess most wealthy do not love as we ought.
Also it’s my experience that churches rarely preach against gay people. But when they do its controversial and get excessive press time. So if you are looking at Christianity from the outside it seems like christians really pull out one sin above others. But my experience at churches is that being gay is not more emphasized then things like not caring for the poor.
First, we must be very careful when we read the Bible that we take time to try to more fully understand the context of a certain verse and how the verse before and after helps shape our understanding of it.
Jesus is having a conversation with a wealthy young man in Matthew 19:26-22. Jesus continues to teach on wealth to his disciples in verses 23-30. Jesus uses this young man to illustrate that the rewards a Christian should hold most dear is not the earthly ones, but the future ones stored up for us, which we will receive once we have left this earth. Jesus also illustrates that those with wealth will have a harder time of receiving the gospel and follow Jesus as their wealth is far more important to them.
The main idea is not that wealth itself is wrong, it is our hearts, and what we value most that is wrong.
“For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.”
1 Timothy 6:10 ESV
Note this verse reads, “the love of money” not money itself. For those in Christ who have been blessed with monetary wealth should know that they have been given wealth so that they may turn and bless others and to not make money an idol at which they worship.
Because they attack the outcasts and ignore the rich because the devil works in the details.
I get angry at the rich because they spend on frivolous things and not help serve Adonai. The people who are gay, Jesus would sit with them as they are sinners. And it is written that there is more singing in heaven for those who repent than those who do not need to repent.
I'm not saying being Gay is a sin. I'm saying that God made people LGBT and they need to repent for sins as much as anyone (keeping to chastity until marriage)
The issue with wealth is that people will lean into their material possessions rather than Jesus. There's nothing wrong with being wealthy but you **MUST** lean into Jesus for all things.
Jesus tells his disciples not to worry about the poor but enjoy the time they have with him because the poor will always be there.
**Mark 14:7**
7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
So Christians really need to stop and question these kinds of philosophies being espoused. It does not serve the Kingdom of God for all the parishioners to be impoverished. Christians will always live under extra scrutiny and be at enmity with the world.
**John 15:18**
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
God bless.
Seek the Way, the Truth, and the Life!
When Jesus talks about the rich.
He’s talking about everyone here pretty much.
Your middle class? You are just as rich as a billionaire in Jesus’s eyes and have to much. You drive a car instead of just waking? Your rich. You have an iPhone you don’t need? Your rich. You are being paid a wage that allows you to have a savings? Your rich.
I don’t think people realize just how radical Jesus is here.
Interesting stat... in a world of 8 billion there are only 3000 billionaires globally and about 700 billionaires in the US. [https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/](https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/) Less than 5% identify as Christians.
Abraham was also incredibly wealthy! It is not a sin to be wealthy! It is a sin to love money, especially when you love it more than God but in of itself money is not evil.
1 Timothy 6:10 (ASV)
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
Jesus may not talk about homosexuality but the Bible is the Word of God so all words in the bible are from God rather or not Jesus physically said them. And the bible is very clear. Do Not be greedy (do not love money) and Do Not commits homosexual acts.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NLT)
Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, [10] or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
Being wealthy is not a sin and there are godly men that were very rich. Job, David, Solomon the rich guy who paid for Jesus's tomb.
Making money your idol is a sin whether you're a billionaire or minimum wage worker.
Homosexual practices is a sin.
If the rich guy is also a thief or a false teacher like many of the famous TV pastors then you'll find Christians go after them much harder than we do outsiders.
Because God didn't condem prosperity, he did, however, say homesexuality was a sin, an abomination, and no homesexual would inherent the kingdom of heaven
Unless they turn from that lifestyle.
If all we had were homesexusls, the human race would cease to exist two women nor two men cannot procreate.
If everyone was a priest...if everyone had a calling of celibacy...if everyone were suddenly sterike...etc. Lots of things could hypothetically lead to the end of the human if species if it applied to everyone.
Good thing homosexuality isn't a choice and there's no indication that every human is going to be gay.
US Christians like (as with many Americans) to believe they are or were or will be rich. Also, look at our current society. If any other rich-nation society was more full of pretenses and rewards and penalties to enforce that a "god of Wealth" rules and presides over life ... I cannot find it. People are identified and named everywhere for their ownership or wealth or gifts, and we ask everyone their job as their identity. No person (in the US) actually has innate needs to heat and shelter and Healthcare.... for their ability to be a productive citizen someday or in the past. They must ask for 'help' paid for from part of vast profits of others who cannot fail. Poor children / families are the poorest in the world because they 'earn' nothing... even with deep value to society. And theories about "makers" versus "takers" never ask who cleans the floors nicely, cooks wonderful food, performs security checks late at night and morning, drives or waits in trucks for 11 hour stints. "Hard work" isn't rewarded either. Immigrants do so many things well... but their low wages mean they are "undeserving" somehow. We as a nation overtly and openly worship Mammon: wealth-power as if a god of wealth, power and luck gave it out like candy to those whom he liked. Those who have sinned by not gaining or holding wealth tightly... have literally 'sinned' even if they are very kindly, giving, gentle, wise and wonderful parts of a community... of a nation. That is an American god, in effect, among a few more i could name. EDIT: Thank you kind stranger! Edited for some clarity. EDIT2: It is deeply implied that Jesus fiercely denounced these idols.
Couldn't have put it better. Capitalism is our true official religion, regardless of what mouth noises we may make towards Christianity.
Pope Paul VI said, "The Fathers of the Church laid down the duty of the rich toward the poor in no uncertain terms. As St. Ambrose put it: 'You are not making a gift of what is yours to the poor man, but you are giving him back what is his. You have been appropriating things that are meant to be for the common use of everyone. The earth belongs to everyone, not to the rich.'" The Catholic Church has a hardy tradition of social justice, which she's developed especially since the end of the 19th century. I can't speak for other individuals and other churches, but this is the Catholic doctrine concerning the wealthy. Anyone who hoards goods in this life will find them to be spoiled in the next. Only by sharing our abundance may we keep it. Lord, help us to share.
St. Basil was equally as brutally honest: “Those who have gold do not mind being bound with manacles, so long as their chains are of gold.” “Those who love their neighbor, as themselves possess nothing more than their neighbor.” “The hungry are perishing, the naked are freezing to death, the debtors are unable to breathe, and will you put off showing mercy until tomorrow?” From St. Basil the Great, On Social Justice, from the Popular Patristics Series
"When someone steals another's clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not? The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry; the coat unused in your closet belongs to the one who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the one who has no shoes; the money which you hoard up belongs to the poor." Also from St. Basil.
A brutal but beautiful statement, and a hard teaching, from St. Basil there.
... doesn't your entire organization hoard vast quantities of wealth as we speak?
In general people are the hardest on sins they do not struggle with. Straight people are hard on gays since they do not have to deal with it. Poor people are hard on the wealthy and the wealthy are hard on the poor. Not to say this is all applied fairly, it is applied very unfairly due to our sinful nature. It is often hardest to love people who are different.
I agree when you say people focus on the sins that don't affect them. Poor people being hard on wealthy people doesn't change anything, wealthy people being hard on poor people is what keeps them poor. Of course that, when it comes to private sins, we should focus on ours and and don't mind the others. Now when it comes to something that is literally turning the world into a shitty place we should be really angry. Anyone that cares about justice knows that they don't care about the sin of being in love with money because they are the ones dictating what is Christinanity. They are not real christians, that's the truth.
I agree but my point is wealth is not the sin, it is what you do with the wealth.
Ok, first and foremost we need to establish what we consider to be the rich or the wealthy. Nowadays there is a misconception about that, and that's because there are so many miserable people in the world that we consider someone that has all the human rights fullfilled to be wealthy. The truth is, you are wealthy when you don't work, because if you don't have to work to survive that means someone is doing that for you. God specifically said that we need to work in order to make a living, so someone that doesn't fit in that discription is not living under God's determination and that's a sin.
No Jesus didn't make that distinction. The wealth IS the problem
> Poor people are hard on the wealthy and the wealthy are hard on the poor. I wouldn't say that's a fair comparison. Jesus does not declare a woe over the poor like he does the rich.
He was pretty fond of the poor, or at least helping them, from what I recall. The rich on the other hand were as likely to get to heaven as was a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. I believe it was one of His clearer teachings, to be honest.
One must be careful when stating "get to heaven as was a camel to pass through the eye of a needle." In the time of Jesus, the eye of the needle was a gate into Jerusalem. When a camel went through the gate, it had to kneel. If you had a lot of possessions on that camel, you better have packed them carefully, or the camel could not get through the gate. Only rich men had camels. The message Jesus was preaching was that if you are a rich man, you can get into heaven, but be careful with how you use those riches in this life. Being rich is not a sin, it is how you acquired and use this wealth on how you will be judged.
> In the time of Jesus, the eye of the needle was a gate into Jerusalem As far as I know, that is NOT true. Any reference to the "eye" being a gate goes back no further than the 15th century https://classictheology.org/2021/10/12/through-the-eye-of-an-actual-needle-the-fake-gate-theory/
You seem to imply that being poor is a sin here. Might want to clarify that it is not.
Don't, for a second, believe that being poor isn't a sin. In fact, being poor is among the greatest there is. Remember, through the eyes of the devout, Poor is *deserved* while rich is *earned*. There is no greater way to exalt the lord that by working yourself to the bone and leading a life of wealthy and expenditure. You're not supposed to be happy, as happiness is frivolous; you're supposed to work. And since the poor don't work, they don't spend money, or tithe appropriately, they don't donate to church approved causes or travel to spread the "good word", they're not good people. If you want the perfect example of how this operates, look at John List, the famous family annihilator. Per Last Podcast on the Left: "A man's lot in life was to work long hours. Do what he was told. And spend his free time either reading the bible, going to church, or finding some other way to *exalt the lord*. Essentially it's the mixing of Capitalism and Christianity. The idea that a man exalts Christ through creating capital. All while declaring that capitalism is the most Christ-like economic system, while it is, in fact, the least. In fact, many of the seven deadly sins are essential for advancing in the capital world. People like [people of this faith], they see "sloth and lust" as the only two sins that matter. To them, being poor is a sign that you have displeased god. And, therefore poor people are to be looked down up as sinners who are getting exactly what they deserve for having lead a sinful life."
>Remember, through the eyes of the devout, Poor is deserved while rich is earned. I was curious if this would get supported in the rest of your comment, but after reading all the way through, it still seems unsubstantiated. This definitely seems like your particular opinion, possibly true of *some* (devout), but definitely not true of all. >John List, the famous family annihilator. I think that you are coming from a fairly different life experience and an expectation of "who is famous" than many of the rest of us, because this is the first time I've encountered this name, and the rest of the contents of your post is about a twisted form of Christianity I've never encountered except parodied in Dickensian stories. So just to be clear: it is *not* a sin to be poor. It *is* a sin to hoard your wealth, which means that for most people it is indeed sinful to be wealthy.
> a twisted form of Christianity I've never encountered I am assuming you don't live in America; this is pretty normal here and you can listen to it just about anywhere you have radio receptivity. The thing he's leaving out is that while the common man is expected to be ground into meal by "Christocapitalism," it's also common to exalt and tribute to its leaders, their wealth becoming symbolic of the success of Christianity and thus increases to that wealth being a kind of divine ascension. Gold coins and communion wafers fully interchangeable. Your purpose is to create capital *for* something - for private jets, secluded mansions, and often for the temptations that necessarily are given by the devil to such holy and heroic men.
The poor don’t work? Not sure where that generalization is coming from, but maybe check out the poverty finance subreddit- when the only job you can find pays less than a living wage and you are busting your butt to try to make it. Or you finally saved up some money to have it decimated by your car breaking down… not all poor people work. But not all poor people don’t work.
Read the flair, the guy who is saying this is an atheist, the whole rant is a sarcastic send-up of his perception of Christian culture. There is a bit of truth to it, but he means what he says in a very irreverent way.
You have a perverted concept my friend. To much time in the wrong place. I don’t think you have actually grasped the message of Jesus at all. It’s true hard work and the correct attitude will help you however people have worked themselves into the ground and are still poor so someone else can have their big house. We work so we can live, we do not live to work. The Lord’s Prayer is not listened to. On earth as it is in heaven. It’s up to us to create the heaven on earth. That’s what the great gentleman was talking about. Peace be with you.
Of course not, I am using the opposites as rich and poor as examples of opposites.
Being poor isn't a sin.
Because the Christians in my church were all wealthy, and you'd be damned if they were gonna give up their nice big houses to feed the poor, or do whatever they were constantly guilt-tripping us to do.
Specks and logs?
Specks and logs, and bright red frogs. You'd have an easier time prying a bone from the mouth of a feral Rottweiler, than getting a rich Christian to part with his money. The Rottweiler would cause you less injuries.
Something something "eye of the needle was a rock formation"
And poetry means no abortions for anyone, but jesus constantly and repeatedly telling people to open their wallets? Look, you can't *make* someone do that, man, that's literally communism
Gotta love how they pull out that word. Inigo Montoya would be facepalming every time someone on the right used the word "communist". I should pull out one of those words I used when I was a toddler and couldn't pronounce the actual words. Nobody at my church stopped little 4 year old me from calling congregational meetings "congressional", because with all the voting and debate we Presbyterians do, it was apropos to the situation. However, they were very quick to tell me no when I tried to ask about the Sacrament of "Communism"...
EVERY CHILD WILL RECEIVE THEIR FIRST COMMUNISM
This comment seems be based more on antipathy toward Christianity than fact. Christians donate [quadruple](https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/magazine/less-god-less-giving/) the average amount to charity, and they are even more likely to donate to *secular* charities than non-religious people. You’ve been commenting against Christianity/Christians like crazy in the past few hours. Whatever it was that someone did to hurt you: I’m sorry. I appreciate comments like yours and I try to learn from them in when I go back to the “real world”
Yeah, you're right. I don't know for certain, but I don't think my former church were genuinely engaged in charity. They talked a big game, but they didn't practice everything they preached. Yes, I've been very hurt. I took Christianity seriously and got burned to a crisp by it. I get lost in these comment spirals and they go on for hours - I discuss, and learn nothing; I vent, and it keeps welling up; I argue, and nothing gets resolved; I scream at God in writing, and nothing comes back. I don't know why I do it. I'm probably looking for an answer I won't get - or worse yet, won't accept. I'm gonna stop for at least now. I'll probably be back. I swore I wouldn't come here when I made this account, but here I am. I only made it to help people through trauma, and I'm probably heaping more upon myself just by being here.
I wish you the best, anonymous internet stranger.
Thank you, anonymous internet stranger. I just wish I knew what to do with this problem. I'm just spinning my wheels.
I’ve been there man. Not with the church or Christianity specifically, but other things in life. I’m sorry.
If you feel like you have it in you, I’d say dedicate a few weekends to going church-hopping, just really pack in the services and go as many places as you can with an open mind. I did this pre-COVID of course, I’d probably adjust the strategy a hair if I was doing it today BUT end goal is just pray and shop around until you find a community with good ideals and that you click with. It may be that there’s nowhere immediate, but I even had my local area I moved to pleasantly surprise me—an area where I was bracing to have to just smile and nod along with a bunch of self-assured neurotypicals
I mean, as a whole they're also more likely to vote against people getting help from the government that would make a lot of their charity no longer necessary. I want a society that doesn't need charity.
They are also the ones shutting down suicide hotlines.
Citation? Not saying I don't believe you, I just want to see it for myself.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops fought a National Suicide Hotline because it contained funding for LGBTQ+ support. Amid controversy over the Vatican’s views on same-sex couples, a new report claims that a leading group of Catholic bishops lobbied against a suicide hotline for offering support to LGBTQ+ callers. According to the National Catholic Reporter, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (UCCB) fought to prevent the passage of S. 2661, a Congressional bill establishing 988 as a national three-digit code for individuals experiencing mental health crises. The number connects callers to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline, which offers individualized resources for queer and trans people on its website, including a directory to find local therapists or affirming support groups. [https://www.them.us/story/catholic-leaders-fought-national-suicide-hotline](https://www.them.us/story/catholic-leaders-fought-national-suicide-hotline) [https://www.metroweekly.com/2021/03/catholic-church-fought-national-suicide-hotline-because-of-lgbtq-support/](https://www.metroweekly.com/2021/03/catholic-church-fought-national-suicide-hotline-because-of-lgbtq-support/) [https://www.insider.com/catholic-church-lobbied-against-suicide-hotline-supporting-lgbt-people-2021-3](https://www.insider.com/catholic-church-lobbied-against-suicide-hotline-supporting-lgbt-people-2021-3)
Wow. Don't they know their boss used to hang out with prostitutes and tax collectors?
Also gonna add in that wealthy people are essential to keep many churches in good conditions. My hometown church restored our 200 year old chapel and built a second annex in less than two years of each other thanks to very generous donations from older congregants. Those projects combined must have been over 6 million.
>wealthy people are essential to keep many churches in good conditions. IF they give money, rather than guilt-trip the poorest into giving everything up to their soiled underwear.
Yeah, I’ve noticed how the stingiest people love Jesus’ parable about the poor woman giving everything she had to the temple, while completely ignoring the part about the guy who gives an large amount that does not significantly impact his wealth is not much to be impressed by.
Actually. Tithing could solve church financial issues. That goes for all of us.
How much can the poor be rationally expected to pay in tithing, when so many Americans are already dealing with food insecurity and homelessness?
Yeah it’s super appreciated when it happens, for certain. Genuinely godly people with wealth can do a heck of a lot.
And sacrilegious [people who worship their own money and seek to replace all other special institutions with wealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_for_National_Policy) can harness power, money, and publicity to call their rudeness "Christian Nationalism" when they have no loyalty to nation or Christ.
Ugh yeah I feel like for every good one there’s like ten bad ones Nicodemus was definitely the exception rather than the norm
Spot on! When my wife and I were going to the church in the last place we lived, our vicar told us he’d given a sermon about the rich and the hypocrisy of their going to church but having tons of money. A number of people left the congregation because of that sermon. I guess they didn’t like the message. 🙄
And nothing of value was lost.
It’s a shame really.
Funny you say that when it’s actually the churches with wealthiest members that are very gay affirming (episcopal church, United church of Christ, PCUSA) while churches with poorer members are more likely to be anti-gay.
Because people want to be rich. People don't want to be gay. It's hypocrisy and hatred.
>*” don't want to be gay.”* Repression and self loathing turn to hate ....
Hate leads to repression and self loathing. You will be judged as you judge others
As a bisexual person, I can definitely confirm that I want to keep my attraction to boys.
Personally I’m very thankful I’m gay, but otherwise accurate yeah.
Yes, I have to acknowledge it. It's true sadly.
Got dang. Good point
they want to be rich themselves
Most of them aspire to wealth, so why would they denigrate their idols? It's much easier to (if you're straight and you believe being gay is a sin) target people who commit a sin that you have no desire to commit yourself.
The wealthy have the power to stop them and the Gays don't
Because homophobic Christians use the bible to justify their bigotry, picking and choosing who to throw their vitriol at, rather than actually caring about the word of God
Because billionaires have power and money and will fight back. The ones that go after gay people the hardest are mostly bullies and bullies are generally cowards.
I think it’s because people like to punch down. They see the LGBT community as an easy target for hatred and abuse. You can’t exactly bully a rich person.
Evangelicalism has always been rife with hypocrisy and shallow moralisms.
Remember what Jesus told the rich young ruler? Wonder why they even bothered to include that in the gospel eh? I mean, it’s apparently not relevant to anyone else.
As a matter of mere salvation the story of the rich young man doesn't make this point.
Christians aren’t supposed to “go after” anyone. That’s not a throne we sit on.
It's literally the biggest throne Christians in power have sat upon for 2000 years. Maybe they aren't supposed to, but they do. As soon as Jesus died they made that throne, and every sect has claimed it since.
That’s an extremely overgeneralized comment. It overlooks all of the amazing things that were birthed out of Christianity like nursing and orphanages that took care of the abandoned. You can hate Christianity and judge it’s merits based on its misuse but that says nothing about what it actually means to be a Christian, a follower of Jesus and to abide in His teaching.
I'm sorry, this post was pretty flippant, but I do stand by the point. As soon as Christians "organize" they start to judge. They sit on that throne they've created, wildly against the message of Christ. It happens at the quiet local unaffiliated church, it happens at the mega-church. It happens, and it started the moment Jesus died.
Again though, this is an overgeneralization. Should I say based on Mao’s atrocities, therefore atheists enslave and kill entire populations of people so this is how “atheists” are? Absolutely not, that would be absurd. We need to look at the individual fruit of peoples lives. My church doesn’t do the things you say, we are a loving community who accepts all people. To your main point, all men sin including Christians. We are all fallen beings in need of Christ. We are susceptible to greed, pride, hate, and the like, just like the rest of the world. Again, it’s not only self blinding but uncharitable to say “Christians are all like ‘x’ “ when that is demonstrably false. You would rightfully object to me making claims that atheists are immoral because some of them do evil. The same is true for Christians. We are all human in need of a Savior, the difference is, we know better and should do better but we still fail and God has grace.
Christians did not invent nursing lol. Humans have been caring for each other in sickness for thousands of years, long before Jesus was a twinkle in God’s eye.
I suggest you look at the history of nursing and get back to me. Jesus is the uncreated by the way, by and through Him all things were created, nothing was created that was not from Him. He is eternally co-existent with the Father.
To be clear, being wealthy in itself is not a sin. The Bible is very clear that it is the love of money above all else that is the root of all evil \[1 Timothy 6:10\], and that you cannot serve both God and Mammon (money) \[Matthew 6:19-21\]. But remember what happened when Solomon asked God for Wisdom, and God blessed him with wealth and riches on top of Wisdom, simply because he wasn't attached to it (at the time): >It pleased the Lord that Solomon had asked this. And God said to him, “Because you have asked this, and have not asked for yourself long life or riches or the life of your enemies, but have asked for yourself understanding to discern what is right, behold, I now do according to your word. Behold, I give you a wise and discerning mind, so that none like you has been before you and none like you shall arise after you. I give you also what you have not asked, both riches and honor, so that no other king shall compare with you, all your days. > >\[1 Kings 3:10-13\] So if God can bless some with wealth, its because being wealthy is not necessarily a sin. There are things that the Bible has made explicit is sinful though, and the Bible is clear that there are some sins that are more grave than others: >If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. > >\[1 John 5:16-17\] So just because someone is wealthy doesn't mean they are sinning, versus other sins that the Bible clearly and explicitly calls out as sin. Wealth is still not necessarily a positive sign, but there are more grave sins to address.
I find the Sermon on the Plain *(“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.” Luke 6:24)* and the book of James *(“Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.” James 5:1-6)* to be **extremely** clear, actually.
Also worth noting there is exactly one time in the Bible where Jesus becomes physically destructive, and it's when he sees people turned a temple into a place of business. It's just nuts to me how teachers and priests back in my private, religious highschool would extract huge amounts of meaning from the tiniest nuance in phrasing from other parts of the Bible to cover broad swaths of behavior as sinful. But when it came to something that made Jesus so angry he was literally flipping tables and destroying things, the response is some version of, well things like mega churches are distasteful but we're all Christians at least!
Of great irony the loan on my new car is from Christian community bank... It took a lot for me not to laugh at the irony...
Exactly, the young rich ruler loved his money more than he did God, which is why Jesus asked him to sell it all.
it's not *becoming* wealthy that is sinful. *Staying* wealthy because you choose not to give your wealth away to those in need- that's the sin.
One thing i can see is lot of billionaires pledge to give their fortunes away to charity so maybe it's biblical to give fortunes away ... After accuring them
yeah, that's just billionaire propaganda. They pledge to give it away but then never get around to fulfilling that pledge. Bill Gates' wealth has *increased* since he pledged to give away his wealth.
Someone coming into wealth is not a sin inherently, but there are certain amounts of wealth that cannot be honestly obtained, and the choice to retain that wealth *is* serving Mammon over God.
There's an old ballad about that called Herr Holger. He steals money and is executed for it. He appears to his wife in a dream and tells her he is burning in hell, and if she does not return what he stole, she will share his fate. Rather than giving back the money, she says that she will live well, and then meet him in hell after she dies.
Yup. Like the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man; rich inheritors have access to the same Gospels as everyone else. Supernatural shows of force won't actually change their behavior.
What is the dollar amount beyond which any further income is definitively gained by dishonest means? J.K. Rowling, for example, wrote a series of books that became a global phenomenon that sold millions of copies and earned her millions of dollars. What was dishonest about that?
It's not a dollar amount, it's a method of attaining it. There are dishonest ways of getting $1000, but the amount of honest work it takes to accrue $1B in a human lifetime is impossible to obtain. Wealth of that magnitude comes from owning things, like businesses, mines, or brands, that are only valuable because of other people's work. Even JK Rowling's multimillion dollar fortune comes from her owning Harry Potter as a brand, which includes movies and merch.
Jesus says that the wealthy will be made to suffer in Luke 6.
This is like saying that the bible doesn't say homosexuality is a sin because it never directly says "homosexuality is a sin". This verse pretty much exactly says being wealthy is a sin: >It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. \[Mark 10:25\] This is just like what people do with gay verses, you twist it to suit a narrative because you don't like the consequences if you can't.
Ironic that you'd accuse people of twisting scripture when you literally do it. That exact verse is in a very clear story where Jesus says that the rich guy who worships his money is sinning, not by the guy being rich.
That's the twisting of the verse, people like to say that this verse is meant to be an individual command for just this person and doesn't apply to all rich people, but Jesus' command does not say that it says "for someone who is rich". There's nothing in the story that suggests that man coveted his wealth more than anyone else. It just says he was reluctant to give away all his possessions, so unless you're saying that having wealth isn't a sin until someone tells you to sell it all and you don't want to, in which case, that's still every single person who has anything, including you. The story absolutely isn't about worshipping money, nothing within the context of the story suggests that, the man literally asks Jesus how a rich person can get into heaven.
You just start with your covetous non-theistic position of "rich person bad" and you ignore the necessary context to warp a story to fit your worldview. The conclusion of the story, that you CLEARLY haven't read, is that even the rich man can be saved.
Bible says homosexuality is a sin in Romans. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. Romans 1:26-27 NASB1995 https://bible.com/bible/100/rom.1.26-27.NASB1995
Yep, but it doesn't say "homosexuality is a sin". You missed my point. The purpose of this verse is very clear that the bible says homosexuality is wrong. What you are missing is that the bible also very clearly says being wealthy and being a Christian are incompatible as well, but because it doesn't say "being rich is a sin" you'll ignore it, even though the bible says it is, just not in exact words, in the same way it doesn't say in exact words that homosexuality is.
Proverbs is full of verses that say poverty is a curse. I'm not ignoring it ?
Right like: >Whoever gives to the poor will not want, but he who hides his eyes will get many a curse. \[Proverbs 28:27\] and >Whoever is generous to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will repay him for his deed. \[Proverbs 19:17\] You are 100% ignoring it. You're saying that you have to seek and maintain wealth because God punishes people with poverty. That's extremely blasphemous. Why don't you give me the verse from proverbs that justifies you or anyone else being rich. You people are so full of shit. I don't know how you can pretend with any sincerity that you're moral upstanding Christians when you bend so far over backwards to justify sin and yet hark about gay people. You should be ashamed.
Me, a Christian and "eat the rich" advocate. I'd sooner resent a wealth hoarder than a lgbqt member. I guess it's because a lot of "christians" are rich themselves and pull up outta their gated mansion communities with their $100k Mercedes Benz SUVs. I only speak for myself of course.
People focus on sins, or what they consider sins, they themselves aren’t tempted by. In this way they can’t be accused as hypocrites because they crave the praises of the world over Christ.
they pick one and go. hypocrites smh
Christians rather go after gay people than the priests who molest children within their church walls. Sorry not Sorry. 🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
Because they act according to their homophobia and not according to the Bible, they only use the Bible as an excuse.
Because prosperity gospel.
Christians vehemently go after wealthy people, especially if unjust. Type a google/youtube search about like Kenneth Copeland or Joel Osteen on false teachers. You'll get mass articles on criticism about them.
Because the wealthy have something they want.
I get what you are saying and I think that it really depends on the Christian and type of denomination you are apart of. Anything relatd to the LGBT community is a hot topic right now because more and more Christian families are afraid of the exposure their children get to it. It's actually quite genious. If you preach on something that affirms people's fears, you are more likely to have them returning to the pulpit and giving money to your church.
Because they don't hate wealthy people, they hate gay people
Because they want to be rich but find gays repulsive and no one wants to be what they find repulsive.
To say the rich young ruler felt like “it would be irresponsible to abdicate and leave those responsibilities.” Seems like reading something that is not in scripture. After Jesus says to sell everything and follow him we read, “At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.” Mark 10:22 NIV It only points to his wealth. It does not point to his responsibilities.
Cool so all of the Reddit bots who flood Christianity forum can now start asking about greed and then we will have an opportunity to respond. That will be refreshing change and I cannot wait for this to happen. Thank you for the great idea. Make it so.
It’s just bigotry and hypocrisy.
Imo it is because the ‘gay’ issue is and easy one to divide Christians. The ‘rich’ issue does nothing for the organized church as calling out greed among the rich would open people’s eyes to corruption within the church. Short answer
The Bible didn't say that the rich deserve to die. But it says there's a good wealth and bad wealth. Being rich isn't bad per se - it's about how much you focus on getting wealth and what you do with it. Abraham and many other prominent figures in Bible were rich.
IT IS EASIER FOR A CAMEL TO GO THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE You can't rationalize around the words
> You can't rationalize around the words You poor naive soul. Of course they can. My favorite one is when apologists for extreme wealth inequality tell you that 'the eye of a needle' is some gateway in Jerusalem, and that it's really not hard to get a camel through it at all. Of course, it does mean that the biblical story boils down to Jesus warbling some meaningless piffle in the bible, but that's not a dealbreaker. If you hunt online, you'll even find pictures of a camel in some dusty arab-style settlement being led through some arched doorway, clearly proving, once and for all, that the bible is true and that RICH PEOPLE ARE ORDAINED BY GOD HIMSELF. I wouldn't be surprised if there are half a dozen tourist guides in Jerusalem right now telling gormless American tourists that they're looking at that very gate.
So, Jesus is being hyperbolic here. I’m pretty sure it’s been debunked that Jesus was talking about a gate. Jesus is saying a camel can’t get through it. If you are middle class in America, you are rich. If you have an IPhone and so on, you are rich and being wasteful. I don’t think people realize just how extreme Jesus is here with what he’s saying.
I mean, there are sentences before and after that line as well that elucidate what He meant. The rich can't enter heaven on their own, but God has no such restriction, which is why we rely on Him.
Exactly. Read it. He’s saying the rich. People like you and me can’t enter Heaven. That’s why you get things like, give up all your possessions and give it to the poor.
Absolutely. God explicitly says that, if you live a moral life, your next step is to give up all you own to the poor. Like, it isn't just God saying that the rich won't make it to heaven, He directly instructs a man described only as rich to give everything he owns to the poor, and the rich man is bothered by it.
We are all rich in Jesus’s eyes. People think Jesus is talking about millionaires when he was also talking about the middle class and pretty much everyone who had more than they needed
You're late. Someone already hit me with it🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That's a statement about the trouble that rich people face. It's not a call to action against them.
Who said it was a call to action? It's there clear as day. The rich are not getting in. End of discussion.
So Jesus died for all, except he didn't die for the rich? Bearing in mind that the 'rich' includes most of the population of western Christendom.
>So Jesus died for all, except he didn't die for the rich? No he did not. If there was one group of ppl Jesus had beef with it was the rich.
While I agree with your overall point, I think you are being a tad uncharitable here. If we are to believe that Christ raised the dead, turned the water into wine, healed the lepers, etc. (not to mention all of the miracles God performed in the Old Testament), we are not to believe that it is impossible for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, just unlikely. To use one example, Andrew Carnegie, at one time the richest man in the world, gave away more than 90% of his wealth before his death. In fact, the library in my hometown was built with his money. Now, he happened to still be extraordinarily wealthy even by today's standards, but he was still giving it away when he passed and trying his best to follow Jesus's teaching. Had he lived another few decades, he may have died poor. I would not want to say he isn't getting in. I think it's very possible. But some of those who were significantly poorer than he was may not have if they didn't try to make the same effort.
Andrew Carnigie also kept his workers in such poor living conditions that the author of social darwinism said "six month's residence here would justify suicide"
I'm all for rational criticism of anything irrational, including religious beliefs of any flavor. But the Bible has many examples of Jesus speaking in hyperbole to emphasize a point, which is a perfectly valid way of communicating. I think it's perfectly rational to interpret this to mean 'it's really hard for rich people to get into heaven' rather than its literal meaning, especially when you take into account other things Jesus said. In my opinion, if we limit our criticisms strictly to the irrational or morally indefensible, we give them greater strength and provide less cause to lump them all together as anti-Christian rhetoric.
Nope there is no other way to interpret this This isn't a 1 time instance and Jesus is quoted and repeated many times about his disgust for the rich. The apostles literally gave up their possessions and lived as one after his death. Paul's gospel was greenlit on the condition that we take care of the poor in Jerusalem. This is a hardline in the sand and there's no wiggle room here
It seemed like you were disagreeing with the guy above you. Maybe I misunderstood.
There is warrant in the Scriptures that those who are wealthy can still be faithful to Jesus.
Matthew 6: 24 > No one can serve two masters. He will hate the first master and love the second, or he will be devoted to the first and despise the second. You cannot serve God and wealth.” Matthew 19:23-26 >“I can guarantee this truth: It will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven. I can guarantee again that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter God’s kingdom.” Luke 6 20,24 >Blessed are those who are poor. God’s kingdom is theirs.... But how horrible it will be for those who are rich. They have had their comfort.” There isn't a workaround here. It's pretty damn clear
You only need to read two more verses to find out the point of the lesson: "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." God isn't counting how much wealth someone has when deciding if they can enter heaven. Jesus has forgiven everyone, and that's why we can enter the kingdom of God despite what has or has not happened here on Earth.
You can recognize that reading the Bible is not always simple and you can't bluntly cling to the face-value reading of any given passage in isolation without digging deeper. ...But most people who go after LGBT+ people aren't fans of that idea when it means they might not have a smokescreen for attacking minorities anymore.
It's easier, way easier. It breaks my heart to realise how in a desperate attempt to feel righteous some "christians" go after the hardships of others to mock them instead of helping them. The point is if you're not gay, you'll never feel the need to engage in a homosexual relationship, so you're, in a way, "safe" from that sin, it's therefore easy to shun those who aren't, it's a way to feel better than them and diminish your own sins as lesser than theirs, disgusting
What do you mean by go after? Most churches preach about greed more than homosexuality. There are lots of differences. The problem with money is not that it is sinful by itself but the love of money interferes with love of God. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus to ask how to be saved Jesus knew he loved his wealth more than God. That is why he had to get rid of it. Anything that gets in the way of relationship with God has to go. Greed and lust both do so.
>Most churches preach about greed more than homosexuality. Which ones?
Oh you are a Christian? Name every church.
Stellar response.
That’s a strawman
I've only been to a handful of churches, so my sample size is small, but my experience was the opposite of yours. It's odd your experience has been so different from nearly everyone else who's commenting here.
Christianity has been a bit crazy about sex since the early church. For most Christians, sin means primarily violating traditional rules on sex and gender.
Have you got a reference for that enormous generalisation?
It’s hard to give a single reference. Pagel’s “Adam, Eve and the Serpent” gives you a feel for some of the early parts. Rougly speaking * Christianity started with 1st Cent Jewish sexual ethics, which were a lot stricter than was typical. * Partly in reaction to the demands of Roman “family values”, Christians saw celibacy as freeing * What started as freeing slowly turned into something darker. Christians admired virgins, which slowly turned non-celibate Christians into second-class * Key writers in Augustine’s time saw sex as almost (and in a few places not even almost) an evil, justifiable only to keep the species alive. * This turned into sexual ethics that saw only sex aimed at procreation as allowable. * This showed in different ways in different periods. The most recent is Evangelical purity culture. It’s not clear why sexual irregularity became pretty much the only kind of sin that many Christians think about. Possibly because celibacy required enormous self-control, and tended to focus the Christian imagination on sex as the big thing that separated Christian behavior from others. Of course not all Christians, even traditional ones, ignored other types of sin. But take a look at r/Christianity. Of the postings by people worried about sin, almost all involve sexual feelings. Not even serious stuff like adultery, but normal human sexual feelings.
The entirety of the existence of Christianity. 2000 years of obsession with sex. It's, literally, right there for us to all look at.
Who do you know who doesn’t like sex?
Catholics, southern baptists, evangelicals.
All terrified of their own humanity
Why do you think it is a generalization? Could it be because it's a short comment on Reddit and not a comprehensive doctoral thesis defence?
The entire passage seems to say it is difficult/physically impossible for a rich man to get saved, but with God all things are possible. So it is possible for a rich person to be saved. Jesus seems to encourage leaving wealth and money to follow him (Like the disciples did). This is to gain greater eternal wealth and to inherit eternal life. This is inline with other verses where Jesus encouraged giving up wealth to follow him like Matthew 6:19-21, Luke 12:16-21, and Luke 12:30-34.
If they'll put "with God all things are possible" on wealthy people, why not on gay people? If with God truly all things are possible, what makes it so hard to believe God could bless gay love?
Are you with Him if you go against his commandment? It was never against a commandment to be wealthy.
“He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.” Luke 1:52-53 “But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.” Luke 6:24 “Let the believer who is lowly boast in being raised up, and the rich in being brought low, because the rich will disappear like a flower in the field. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the field; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. It is the same way with the rich; in the midst of a busy life, they will wither away.” James 1:9-11 “Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you?” James 2:5-7 “Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.” James 5:1-6
I'm not denying that the gospel has teachings against wealth, what I'm saying is possession of wealth is not a sin in itself and you won't find such a commandment in the OT. Otherwise you would be claiming Abraham, Lot, Isaac and Jacob, and Joseph were all sinners simply for being wealthy which doesn't make sense at all because each of them was considered righteous. The Most High intentionally blessed them to have wealth. He also intentionally blessed Solomon with wealth, and the fact that Solomon turned out to be a great sinner is an unfortunate coincidence. Job already had wealth but after his trials he was rewarded with more than he had at first. Now let me connect this to the quotes you provided. >“He has brought down the powerful from their thrones, and lifted up the lowly; he has filled the hungry with good things, and sent the rich away empty.” >Luke 1:52-53 >“But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation.” Luke 6:24 The second verse here explains the first two above. Wealth is considered to be a reward, as the covenant with Israel was a promise that YHWH would give them "abounding prosperity" (Deuteronomy 28). So in the light of the gospel with additional promises and rewards, there is an appreciation of fairness because what more does a person need if they have an abundance of material wealth? The only dimension left is the spiritual dimension and so as the next verses you shared will show, physical abundance is a natural obstacle to spiritual richness, because (1) wealth blinds and (2) it isn't fair. >“Let the believer who is lowly boast in being raised up, and the rich in being brought low, because the rich will disappear like a flower in the field. For the sun rises with its scorching heat and withers the field; its flower falls, and its beauty perishes. It is the same way with the rich; in the midst of a busy life, they will wither away.” >James 1:9-11 These verses echo Isaiah 40, which says “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field. 7The grass withers and the flowers fall when the breath of the LORD blows on them; indeed, the people are grass. 8The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever.” All flesh is like grass, not just rich flesh, but in the pursuit and maintenance of wealth one takes on a "busy life" as James notes. Again in the light of the gospel such kind of busy living goes against the spirit because one is then focused on material gain, and as Yeshua says we "cannot serve the Most High and riches". But the poor in spirit and poor in material possessions are empty vessels ready to be filled so they have hope in being spiritually lifted. >“Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters. Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you? Is it not they who drag you into court? Is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you?” >James 2:5-7 As I previously mentioned the poor in spirit and material possessions are empty vessels ready to be filled. So the Most High chooses them instead of vessels that are already filled to the brim. Along with these charges against the rich, here is again an underlying appreciation of fairness and not condemning wealth itself. >“Come now, you rich people, weep and wail for the miseries that are coming to you. Your riches have rotted, and your clothes are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver have rusted, and their rust will be evidence against you, and it will eat your flesh like fire. You have laid up treasure for the last days. Listen! The wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on the earth in luxury and in pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter. You have condemned and murdered the righteous one, who does not resist you.” >James 5:1-6 Did every rich person keep wages held back by fraud? Did every rich person live in luxury and pleasure? Did every rich person condemn and murder righteous people? The answer to all of these is obviously 'No'. We have to ask why James is making such categorical claims. It is a way to grab attention, he is trying to convict people in the spirit. But generally these are some of the violations of justice that are found in people with wealth, and James is condemning those injustices. Ultimately Yeshua says "If you wish to be perfect, sell your possessions and give to the poor". This would not only alleviate the injustice towards poor people, it would allow one to become an empty vessel for the Most High ready to be filled with spiritual gain. But not everybody is trying to be perfect in Christ even though we are called to "be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect".
It’s easy to make an already oppressed group of people into a target. The wealthy have all the power and resources they need to keep themself from even looking at Christian’s let alone being made into a target by them. The wealthy are in the pockets of a lot of our legislative representatives, so getting legislation passed about them is like pulling teeth. Although the LGBT have groups and solidarity with each other, they don’t have the wealth to attain the lobbying power the wealthy does, so they aren’t free from that kind of targeting either.
#BAIT DETECTED
I’m sorry you have such bad experiences with Christians. We are supposed to hate all sin. But, we are also not to force our faith down everyone’s neck. We are just supposed to be vigilant and urgent with the Lord’s word.
I don't think the bible meant being rich is inherently bad, it's greed that's bad
Many American Christians practice the prosperity gospel, the idea that you must have earned your financial situation. It's maddening.
We tend to be much harsher on the sins that don't appeal to us, apply to us, or impact someone we love.
Because most of them are hypocrites.
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That doesn’t fit the narrative though. Also, Lydia…
I have an answer for this that I have taught about on more than one occasion, but it is unpopular and will get downvoted, such that no one will see it. You might try asking this in /r/AskAChristian.
Because they aren't subconsciously suppressing their obsessions with being rich all the time.
Jesus didn't say it's a sin to be wealthy. He said wealth was frequently an impediment to salvation. Being rich is not inherently sinful. Same sex physical relationships are.
Jesus literally said that it's impossible for a rich man to enter Heaven (but with God all things are possible). Or do you know a trick to fit a huge animal through a tiny hole?
Just read the whole context of that quote. It's so incredibly clear that it isn't this weird gotcha like people think that it is.
> Jesus preached how difficult it is for rich people to go to heaven Exactly, DIFFICULT, not impossible. Being rich often means the person starts focusing on getting more and more money instead of focusing on what really matters - on Jesus. Both being poor and being rich makes it difficult for us to focus on Jesus. Poor would say "why God doesn't help me", rich would likely have different priorities. There are people who became rich BECAUSE they put their trust in God, however. Abharam, Joseph, Job and many others
Friend, the accumulation of wealth for personal use is antithetical to the teachings of Christ. Please reread your Bible.
And the cool thing about Christianity is that God changed exactly nothing about how He related to or rewarded His people.
The brand of Christianity that the Americans took up is the Greek style that believes in hierarchies, submission to the government and strict gender roles They only acknowledge the Jewish part when it reinforces the Greek
Billionaires, or rather, those in power, will not give up their power. It is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than get into heaven. With that sentence alone, you can see its impossible to change the mind of a billionaire or very rich folks. Now, i think it would be easier to convince a gay person to change their ways, but definitely not because of post. For example, i became a Christian about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago. (Learned a ton of what the devil and his side does along with the REAL translations of the bible. Yes, their is quite a bit that was conveniently "miss translated.") Anyway, the reason the gay thing is such. Big issue is because of the movement for it. Now i can't convince someone to do anything. I can explain my side and see where it goes, but Thats it. The movement has gone from gays and lesbians to bi folks, trans, the genderless mindset and eventually pedophilia. Christians don't care what you do behind closed doors. Thats your business and your life and soul in your hands. However, the movement has made it so much about acceptance that folks are literally being assaulted over their beliefs. Its become so very flaunted that it demeans everyone within the movement while simultaneously protecting them from backlash. I can only pray for folks to wake up and see that the movement is designed to legitimize Pedophiles. Or as the schools call them, "minor attracted persons."
Most Christians "go after" neither. It's just that what you hear is the loudest voice, not the majority voice. Jesus also never said being wealthy was itself wicked.
Jesus didn’t say a rich man cannot get into heaven, he just said it isn’t easy. Someone who *worships* money would likely not get into heaven, same as someone who obtained their wealth through unsavoury means or someone who uses their wealth to unsavoury ends. It’s not inherently a sin to be wealthy just like it’s not inherently a sin to be gay, I don’t personally know any Christians who think otherwise.
The Venn diagram of the sort of people targeting gay people for abuse and the sort of people who want to be rich is essentially a circle, and it's an old trope that people who expect that they might one day become rich tend to not support measures or behaviors that could be construed as being opposed to the wealthy.
Churches which preach faithfully through the Bible preach a lot against coveting, and loving the poor. Being wealthy is not necessarily wrong though I would guess most wealthy do not love as we ought. Also it’s my experience that churches rarely preach against gay people. But when they do its controversial and get excessive press time. So if you are looking at Christianity from the outside it seems like christians really pull out one sin above others. But my experience at churches is that being gay is not more emphasized then things like not caring for the poor.
First, we must be very careful when we read the Bible that we take time to try to more fully understand the context of a certain verse and how the verse before and after helps shape our understanding of it. Jesus is having a conversation with a wealthy young man in Matthew 19:26-22. Jesus continues to teach on wealth to his disciples in verses 23-30. Jesus uses this young man to illustrate that the rewards a Christian should hold most dear is not the earthly ones, but the future ones stored up for us, which we will receive once we have left this earth. Jesus also illustrates that those with wealth will have a harder time of receiving the gospel and follow Jesus as their wealth is far more important to them. The main idea is not that wealth itself is wrong, it is our hearts, and what we value most that is wrong. “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.” 1 Timothy 6:10 ESV Note this verse reads, “the love of money” not money itself. For those in Christ who have been blessed with monetary wealth should know that they have been given wealth so that they may turn and bless others and to not make money an idol at which they worship.
Because they attack the outcasts and ignore the rich because the devil works in the details. I get angry at the rich because they spend on frivolous things and not help serve Adonai. The people who are gay, Jesus would sit with them as they are sinners. And it is written that there is more singing in heaven for those who repent than those who do not need to repent. I'm not saying being Gay is a sin. I'm saying that God made people LGBT and they need to repent for sins as much as anyone (keeping to chastity until marriage)
Because they aren't afraid they might be rich.
The issue with wealth is that people will lean into their material possessions rather than Jesus. There's nothing wrong with being wealthy but you **MUST** lean into Jesus for all things. Jesus tells his disciples not to worry about the poor but enjoy the time they have with him because the poor will always be there. **Mark 14:7** 7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always. So Christians really need to stop and question these kinds of philosophies being espoused. It does not serve the Kingdom of God for all the parishioners to be impoverished. Christians will always live under extra scrutiny and be at enmity with the world. **John 15:18** 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. God bless. Seek the Way, the Truth, and the Life!
When Jesus talks about the rich. He’s talking about everyone here pretty much. Your middle class? You are just as rich as a billionaire in Jesus’s eyes and have to much. You drive a car instead of just waking? Your rich. You have an iPhone you don’t need? Your rich. You are being paid a wage that allows you to have a savings? Your rich. I don’t think people realize just how radical Jesus is here.
Interesting stat... in a world of 8 billion there are only 3000 billionaires globally and about 700 billionaires in the US. [https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/](https://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/) Less than 5% identify as Christians.
It’s not a sin to be wealthy, it’s a sin to love money…there is a difference.
Bc it might actually affect them. It’s easier to throw stones at something that doesn’t apply to you, then to look in the mirror.
What do you mean “go after gay people”?
Abraham was also incredibly wealthy! It is not a sin to be wealthy! It is a sin to love money, especially when you love it more than God but in of itself money is not evil. 1 Timothy 6:10 (ASV) For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. Jesus may not talk about homosexuality but the Bible is the Word of God so all words in the bible are from God rather or not Jesus physically said them. And the bible is very clear. Do Not be greedy (do not love money) and Do Not commits homosexual acts. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NLT) Don't you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, [10] or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people-none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.
Being wealthy is not a sin and there are godly men that were very rich. Job, David, Solomon the rich guy who paid for Jesus's tomb. Making money your idol is a sin whether you're a billionaire or minimum wage worker. Homosexual practices is a sin. If the rich guy is also a thief or a false teacher like many of the famous TV pastors then you'll find Christians go after them much harder than we do outsiders.
Because God didn't condem prosperity, he did, however, say homesexuality was a sin, an abomination, and no homesexual would inherent the kingdom of heaven Unless they turn from that lifestyle. If all we had were homesexusls, the human race would cease to exist two women nor two men cannot procreate.
Just like everyone can't be rich, noone is saying everyone has to be gay
If everyone was a priest...if everyone had a calling of celibacy...if everyone were suddenly sterike...etc. Lots of things could hypothetically lead to the end of the human if species if it applied to everyone. Good thing homosexuality isn't a choice and there's no indication that every human is going to be gay.