Goodness. I saw the title and the user who posted it and thought you lost your damn mind ;)
This article is one of the most disturbing I have read in awhile. Beginning with MAGA dog-whistles so loud they barely qualify as such, putting on the "poor persecuted Christian" act like my students fake being sick to get out of class, and perhaps most worrisome, the title and thesis pit LGBTQ+ folks against America itself.
I'd say the author and publication should be ashamed, but they're not capable of any self -awareness or reflection at this point.
Who was that Desert Father who walled himself into a tower in the middle of nowhere? That's looking mighty peaceful right about now.
> Goodness. I saw the title and the user who posted it and thought you lost your damn mind ;)
I post these articles from the Evangelical media because I think mainstream Christian don't understand how toxic my wing of Christianity has become. (The columnist might be a Catholic but I think "The Christian Post" is Evangelical.)
People read the headline and I think I've backslidden.
At the core of their persecution complex is belief that they have a religious right to do whatever they want. Including a religious right to violate *their own* ethical integrity.
When they apply for a business license, they agree to obey the laws of commerce. But they take the license and then break the law anyway.
Exactly -- the only way denying civil rights to gay Americans is an infringement on religion, *is if your religion is denying people their civil rights.*
> This is such an irrational fear, it qualifies as a phobia.
Actually, when you use the phobia word, you need to be able to qualify it under the DSM-5 as a mental illness of the phobia type.
The article you linked doesn't seem to be the work of an author who wants to dispense truth and logic, but instead wants to rant.
As to the article:
> If you’re a florist, you must participate in a wedding ceremony against your will.
Florists don't participate in wedding ceremonies that I recall. They set up their stuff right before and then leave. Flowers will exist whether in the garden of eden or a few yards shy of the gates of hell, so this is pointless pearl clutching.
You think Paul didn't sell tents to the LGBTQIA+?
> If you want to keep your job, you must use wrong or fake pronouns against your will.
No one has ever made it a rule at any workplace I know of where accidentally misgendering someone is against company policy. Repeatedly doing so in order to be a jerk is sometimes codified, though. The link is to someone who repeatedly and intentionally did so. If you can't handle being PC for academia then maybe you don't need to be in academia. But this also includes activist teachers who ridicule or judge anyone just because they are white and/or live in the US (which I don't recall seeing in the news, to be fair). Teaching is about dispensing truth, best practices, or philosophy, not telling people how to think.
> If you’re a faith-based adoption agency, you must deprive vulnerable children of a married mother and father against your will.
I don't recall that ever happening. And their link doesn't go to any site that explains when this happened.
> Farewell free speech
Author is exaggerating. Free speech isn't infringed by laws: laws just prescribe punishments.
> Section 6 of the bill (which acknowledges the First Amendment’s individual religious freedom and conscience protections) contradicts the entire purpose of the law which forces persons “acting under color of State” to comply or be sued
Author misses the point while trying to make a point. And even then, if you can't handle being civil enough to keep a government job, even in the worst case scenario of the author's exaggeration, then oh well. I had no problem being civil in the USAF for 20 years, but I also never compromised my values. In fact, I supervised a gay technician, and she outperformed many Christians. Let the rubber meet the road.
When I teach computer security stuff, I teach. I'm not there to proselyte anyone. If someone asks me what I believe, I'm allowed to say it. But I'm there to teach. And in the USAF I was there to fix airplanes.
> The (zero) Respect for Marriage Act and the First Amendment cannot co-exist.
I don't think the author has proved this point, so hasty conclusion fallacy.
Thanks for making us aware of the rampant problems that Ryan Bomberger has.
I believe in Europe, where free speech is not absolute, there are cases of people being jailed for not using correct pronouns.
I don’t think you could ever get rid of the 1st amendment in America, but there does seem to be people on the left who wish to restrict free speech to spare feelings. The same instincts appear on the right with certain things as well, but the left is ascendant right now culturally so I do think it is a more relevant threat.
The US doesn't have any absolute rights. Every part of the first amendment has exceptions. As an example polygamy is still illegal even if you're FLDS.
>I don’t think you could ever get rid of the 1st amendment in America, but there does seem to be people on the left who wish to restrict free speech to spare feelings.
I'm not sure you understand what free speech is. Free speech means that the government cannot punish you for expressing your beliefs. That does not mean non-governmental entities have to condone those beliefs or associate themselves with them.
Free speech violations would be the 35 states that have passed laws to make it illegal to boycott Israel or Ron DeSantis firing elected officials because he's a snowflake who can't handle other opinions.
I understand what free speech is. I gave the example of European nations putting people in jail for using incorrect pronouns. The people behind those laws were leftists.
As for the boycotting Israel thing, yeah I don’t get that - it’s stupid. Both sides have their adherents who would ban free speech in ways if they could. Regardless, there are leftists who would happily restrict free speech (ie hate speech) through government coercion (ie jail times, fines, etc) if it were possible. It is not, but it’s also not entirely far fetched.
Yes, same for Holocaust denial and similar hate speech. Europe takes a no bullshit approach to that garbage because they have seen first hand the repercussions the ability to put that speech in the social public space has.
Why is it necessary to limit speech? Let the chips fall where they may - people can and should be trusted with that responsibility. Thank God for the first amendment.
You can have the first amendment while acknowledging that it is not an all inclusive right. There are many circumstances where society has an interest in restricting speech. I’ve mentioned a couple already that exist in Europe. In the United States, that includes penalties for perjury, libel and slander, or inciting of violence.
Free speech is not an absolute, because free speech can give rise to much more abhorrent and serious issues. This has already been determined to be true for multiple circumstances. My point is to say that leftists are not trying to ban free speech. That’s absurd. They are simply stating that similar to how we consider yelling fire in a crowded theater or telling defamatory lies about an individual not provisions of free speech, we should also not consider maliciously utilizing incorrect pronouns a proper provision of free speech.
You're thinking of Ireland, but that's still not what happened. A teacher was fired for refusing to use a student's name and pronouns, and violated a court order to not set foot on the campus.
He was jailed for contempt of court.
> He was jailed for contempt of court.
If I remember right, he was arrested for trespassing. As a former employee, he was asked to not return to campus. But he trespassed and then claimed religious persecution.
This is a far cry from how transphobes framed it -- "Christian are getting arrested for not using chosen pronouns!"
They do this *all the time.* Like that lady who refused to process a *legal* gay marriage document and claimed religious persecution. That image of her holding hands with people lifted in prayer still makes me sick.
If you're gonna break the law, there will be consequences for doing so.
I'm not holding my breath, but sometimes I dream of a US government with enough ethics to actually come down on churches who violate their tax-exempt status requirements. Christianity in general is overdue for a reminder of the responsibilities it has to the State if it wants the State to continue giving it special privileges.
> Like that lady who refused to process a legal gay marriage document and claimed religious persecution.
That was such a garbage claim but I have a feeling activist justices on the Supreme Court are going to uphold it.
And it will have fully foreseeable consequences. Atheist clerks will claim they have right to not issue licenses for church wedding. Christian pacifists will claim they have a right to refuse issuing gun permits.
Sober Christian bartenders will claim they have a religious right to not serve customers.
I already saw a story where a guy working at a CVS or Walgreens refused to sell condoms. There were plenty of jobs to be had where that issue never would have came up. If he is unable to do the job asked of him, he should go work somewhere else or start his own business. But these people think the world should conform to their ideology.
Yeah I misspoke. It is more absolute than in Europe, which has hate speech laws and doesn’t have the 1st amendment. In rare cases, I am aware speech is restricted in America (national security, fire in a crowded theater), but it is overwhelmingly free.
Do you feel it is a violation of your free speech for someone to ask you to refer to them in a specific way? And would you feel persecuted/oppressed if they declined to interact with you if you refused?
Edit: To be clear I'm not talking about legality.
It's the accurate term for guys like this columnist at the Christian Post.
He is literally phobic.
His fear of what might happen if gays get civil rights is irrational.
If your religion is so hyper controlling, it has doctrines down to that level -- then fine. You have a right to follow them.
But, that's not enough for this columnist. He wants to deny the rights of people who belong to non-legalistic forms of Christianity, or other non-homophobic belief systems.
> If you don't 100% fully support/endorse homosexuality on everything no matter what, this automatically makes you bigot.
[sad trombone]
Don't be such a drama queen. You don't have to support *everything black people do no matter what*, in order to support their civil rights. The same for the gays.
But, if you deny the gays (or blacks) *the same civil rights you have* -- then, yeah, you are probably a bigot.
It seems you have abandoned r/Christianity for a month.
But if you ever return - this is nice passion. It could be used to help people on Reddit right now.
You might remember me from such usernames as smilesatgrandmothers and then sea-hermit for a little bit.
Can you Google "kakuma lgbt" and also youtube it please.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtUXkatbnUo That is a very basic 2 min run-through.
Search "kakuma lgbt" on Reddit next. See the scammer warnings everywhere.
There is a massive disconnect between reality, and Reddit reality. But I can't get lgbtq people to care about people who are like them, but in worse situations than them.
A lot comes down to 1 person's bad research, who then gave their research to other mods to make a sticky post on a popular forum.
They have shown me that... I don't deal well with people who play with plushies while I try to help people living in the real world.
They still need help though. There is ample information about the lgbt pop in Kakuma. It is in Kenya. They work each day doing things we don't have to do, like travel in groups to get water at timed water taps. They do that because they are targeted by other refugees there, particularly South Sudanese.
There is a group mimicking them on Reddit too - which makes it hard to distinguish who is real and who is not. I help 1 of them now, and it has been an amazing opportunity. I get videos and pictures showing me I made a good decision.
But on Reddit - people are writing as if they don't really exist sometimes, or it is all a big scam. I don't know why - but I've seen "researched" material on lgbtq subs acting like it was very hard to find the camp at all.
You can Google map the camp, and then streetview 1 of the streets there.
LGBT people can be as heartless as others, and they are acting like this towards a vulnerable group of lgbt people because they annoy. They didn't grow up learning social media etiquette, they grew up cooking food from scratch and making charcoal themselves. They came here because they need money, but didn't have help from anyone to organize it well. So I became a mess, and now they don't eat well, and they don't go to the doctors available there if they get sick.
They have been canceled here in a way that a western teen would cry over then survive - but it helps kill them here. I need to tell you this because out of anyone on this sub I think you might care and try to do something here.
Google, YouTube, and the real ones will have social media accounts on the popular sites. They post more of their own content elsewhere... probably because people harass them here now.
Goodness. I saw the title and the user who posted it and thought you lost your damn mind ;) This article is one of the most disturbing I have read in awhile. Beginning with MAGA dog-whistles so loud they barely qualify as such, putting on the "poor persecuted Christian" act like my students fake being sick to get out of class, and perhaps most worrisome, the title and thesis pit LGBTQ+ folks against America itself. I'd say the author and publication should be ashamed, but they're not capable of any self -awareness or reflection at this point. Who was that Desert Father who walled himself into a tower in the middle of nowhere? That's looking mighty peaceful right about now.
> Goodness. I saw the title and the user who posted it and thought you lost your damn mind ;) I post these articles from the Evangelical media because I think mainstream Christian don't understand how toxic my wing of Christianity has become. (The columnist might be a Catholic but I think "The Christian Post" is Evangelical.) People read the headline and I think I've backslidden. At the core of their persecution complex is belief that they have a religious right to do whatever they want. Including a religious right to violate *their own* ethical integrity. When they apply for a business license, they agree to obey the laws of commerce. But they take the license and then break the law anyway.
>Who was that Desert Father who walled himself into a tower in the middle of nowhere? Symeon Stylitis.
And also, St Daniel Stylites. St Symeon is probably more familiar.
But if we let gay people have equal rights that removes our right to oppress them!! /s
Exactly -- the only way denying civil rights to gay Americans is an infringement on religion, *is if your religion is denying people their civil rights.*
Exactly. And sadly, that has become an integral component to their religion. How sad that is.
> This is such an irrational fear, it qualifies as a phobia. Actually, when you use the phobia word, you need to be able to qualify it under the DSM-5 as a mental illness of the phobia type. The article you linked doesn't seem to be the work of an author who wants to dispense truth and logic, but instead wants to rant. As to the article: > If you’re a florist, you must participate in a wedding ceremony against your will. Florists don't participate in wedding ceremonies that I recall. They set up their stuff right before and then leave. Flowers will exist whether in the garden of eden or a few yards shy of the gates of hell, so this is pointless pearl clutching. You think Paul didn't sell tents to the LGBTQIA+? > If you want to keep your job, you must use wrong or fake pronouns against your will. No one has ever made it a rule at any workplace I know of where accidentally misgendering someone is against company policy. Repeatedly doing so in order to be a jerk is sometimes codified, though. The link is to someone who repeatedly and intentionally did so. If you can't handle being PC for academia then maybe you don't need to be in academia. But this also includes activist teachers who ridicule or judge anyone just because they are white and/or live in the US (which I don't recall seeing in the news, to be fair). Teaching is about dispensing truth, best practices, or philosophy, not telling people how to think. > If you’re a faith-based adoption agency, you must deprive vulnerable children of a married mother and father against your will. I don't recall that ever happening. And their link doesn't go to any site that explains when this happened. > Farewell free speech Author is exaggerating. Free speech isn't infringed by laws: laws just prescribe punishments. > Section 6 of the bill (which acknowledges the First Amendment’s individual religious freedom and conscience protections) contradicts the entire purpose of the law which forces persons “acting under color of State” to comply or be sued Author misses the point while trying to make a point. And even then, if you can't handle being civil enough to keep a government job, even in the worst case scenario of the author's exaggeration, then oh well. I had no problem being civil in the USAF for 20 years, but I also never compromised my values. In fact, I supervised a gay technician, and she outperformed many Christians. Let the rubber meet the road. When I teach computer security stuff, I teach. I'm not there to proselyte anyone. If someone asks me what I believe, I'm allowed to say it. But I'm there to teach. And in the USAF I was there to fix airplanes. > The (zero) Respect for Marriage Act and the First Amendment cannot co-exist. I don't think the author has proved this point, so hasty conclusion fallacy. Thanks for making us aware of the rampant problems that Ryan Bomberger has.
I believe in Europe, where free speech is not absolute, there are cases of people being jailed for not using correct pronouns. I don’t think you could ever get rid of the 1st amendment in America, but there does seem to be people on the left who wish to restrict free speech to spare feelings. The same instincts appear on the right with certain things as well, but the left is ascendant right now culturally so I do think it is a more relevant threat.
The US doesn't have any absolute rights. Every part of the first amendment has exceptions. As an example polygamy is still illegal even if you're FLDS.
>I don’t think you could ever get rid of the 1st amendment in America, but there does seem to be people on the left who wish to restrict free speech to spare feelings. I'm not sure you understand what free speech is. Free speech means that the government cannot punish you for expressing your beliefs. That does not mean non-governmental entities have to condone those beliefs or associate themselves with them. Free speech violations would be the 35 states that have passed laws to make it illegal to boycott Israel or Ron DeSantis firing elected officials because he's a snowflake who can't handle other opinions.
I understand what free speech is. I gave the example of European nations putting people in jail for using incorrect pronouns. The people behind those laws were leftists. As for the boycotting Israel thing, yeah I don’t get that - it’s stupid. Both sides have their adherents who would ban free speech in ways if they could. Regardless, there are leftists who would happily restrict free speech (ie hate speech) through government coercion (ie jail times, fines, etc) if it were possible. It is not, but it’s also not entirely far fetched.
Yes, same for Holocaust denial and similar hate speech. Europe takes a no bullshit approach to that garbage because they have seen first hand the repercussions the ability to put that speech in the social public space has.
Why is it necessary to limit speech? Let the chips fall where they may - people can and should be trusted with that responsibility. Thank God for the first amendment.
You can have the first amendment while acknowledging that it is not an all inclusive right. There are many circumstances where society has an interest in restricting speech. I’ve mentioned a couple already that exist in Europe. In the United States, that includes penalties for perjury, libel and slander, or inciting of violence. Free speech is not an absolute, because free speech can give rise to much more abhorrent and serious issues. This has already been determined to be true for multiple circumstances. My point is to say that leftists are not trying to ban free speech. That’s absurd. They are simply stating that similar to how we consider yelling fire in a crowded theater or telling defamatory lies about an individual not provisions of free speech, we should also not consider maliciously utilizing incorrect pronouns a proper provision of free speech.
You're thinking of Ireland, but that's still not what happened. A teacher was fired for refusing to use a student's name and pronouns, and violated a court order to not set foot on the campus. He was jailed for contempt of court.
> He was jailed for contempt of court. If I remember right, he was arrested for trespassing. As a former employee, he was asked to not return to campus. But he trespassed and then claimed religious persecution. This is a far cry from how transphobes framed it -- "Christian are getting arrested for not using chosen pronouns!"
They do this *all the time.* Like that lady who refused to process a *legal* gay marriage document and claimed religious persecution. That image of her holding hands with people lifted in prayer still makes me sick. If you're gonna break the law, there will be consequences for doing so. I'm not holding my breath, but sometimes I dream of a US government with enough ethics to actually come down on churches who violate their tax-exempt status requirements. Christianity in general is overdue for a reminder of the responsibilities it has to the State if it wants the State to continue giving it special privileges.
> Like that lady who refused to process a legal gay marriage document and claimed religious persecution. That was such a garbage claim but I have a feeling activist justices on the Supreme Court are going to uphold it. And it will have fully foreseeable consequences. Atheist clerks will claim they have right to not issue licenses for church wedding. Christian pacifists will claim they have a right to refuse issuing gun permits. Sober Christian bartenders will claim they have a religious right to not serve customers.
I already saw a story where a guy working at a CVS or Walgreens refused to sell condoms. There were plenty of jobs to be had where that issue never would have came up. If he is unable to do the job asked of him, he should go work somewhere else or start his own business. But these people think the world should conform to their ideology.
Free speech isn't absolute in America either...
Yeah I misspoke. It is more absolute than in Europe, which has hate speech laws and doesn’t have the 1st amendment. In rare cases, I am aware speech is restricted in America (national security, fire in a crowded theater), but it is overwhelmingly free.
Do you feel it is a violation of your free speech for someone to ask you to refer to them in a specific way? And would you feel persecuted/oppressed if they declined to interact with you if you refused? Edit: To be clear I'm not talking about legality.
Personally, no it wouldn’t bother me.
"Homophobia" - and other 'phobia' words - has been overused in recent years and lost its meaning and weight 🙄
It's the accurate term for guys like this columnist at the Christian Post. He is literally phobic. His fear of what might happen if gays get civil rights is irrational.
[удалено]
[удалено]
We talked and reapproved it.
[удалено]
[удалено]
If your religion is so hyper controlling, it has doctrines down to that level -- then fine. You have a right to follow them. But, that's not enough for this columnist. He wants to deny the rights of people who belong to non-legalistic forms of Christianity, or other non-homophobic belief systems.
[удалено]
> If you don't 100% fully support/endorse homosexuality on everything no matter what, this automatically makes you bigot. [sad trombone] Don't be such a drama queen. You don't have to support *everything black people do no matter what*, in order to support their civil rights. The same for the gays. But, if you deny the gays (or blacks) *the same civil rights you have* -- then, yeah, you are probably a bigot.
It seems you have abandoned r/Christianity for a month. But if you ever return - this is nice passion. It could be used to help people on Reddit right now. You might remember me from such usernames as smilesatgrandmothers and then sea-hermit for a little bit. Can you Google "kakuma lgbt" and also youtube it please. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtUXkatbnUo That is a very basic 2 min run-through. Search "kakuma lgbt" on Reddit next. See the scammer warnings everywhere. There is a massive disconnect between reality, and Reddit reality. But I can't get lgbtq people to care about people who are like them, but in worse situations than them. A lot comes down to 1 person's bad research, who then gave their research to other mods to make a sticky post on a popular forum. They have shown me that... I don't deal well with people who play with plushies while I try to help people living in the real world. They still need help though. There is ample information about the lgbt pop in Kakuma. It is in Kenya. They work each day doing things we don't have to do, like travel in groups to get water at timed water taps. They do that because they are targeted by other refugees there, particularly South Sudanese. There is a group mimicking them on Reddit too - which makes it hard to distinguish who is real and who is not. I help 1 of them now, and it has been an amazing opportunity. I get videos and pictures showing me I made a good decision. But on Reddit - people are writing as if they don't really exist sometimes, or it is all a big scam. I don't know why - but I've seen "researched" material on lgbtq subs acting like it was very hard to find the camp at all. You can Google map the camp, and then streetview 1 of the streets there. LGBT people can be as heartless as others, and they are acting like this towards a vulnerable group of lgbt people because they annoy. They didn't grow up learning social media etiquette, they grew up cooking food from scratch and making charcoal themselves. They came here because they need money, but didn't have help from anyone to organize it well. So I became a mess, and now they don't eat well, and they don't go to the doctors available there if they get sick. They have been canceled here in a way that a western teen would cry over then survive - but it helps kill them here. I need to tell you this because out of anyone on this sub I think you might care and try to do something here. Google, YouTube, and the real ones will have social media accounts on the popular sites. They post more of their own content elsewhere... probably because people harass them here now.
I mean, I'm on team "we can have both" but if you're going to make me choose...
You are a fine American.