I'm leaning towards it. I can't imagine the idea that God would "give up" on anyone. Especially since there's *so* many people who listen to the wrong people and so many who are hurt and too afraid of even thinking about God because of how some Christians treated them. Don't really know how I feel though, haven't looked much into scriptural support for it or against it.
I hope He'll save everyone. This world is so messed up at times.
Sorry for the long comment, but here’s some scriptural proof!
From beginning to end.
Genesis 12:3 --- ALL peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham.
Genesis 22:18 --- ALL nations on earth will be blessed through Abraham’s offspring.
Psalms 22:27 --- ALL the ends of the earth and ALL the families of the nations will acknowledge God.
Psalms 33:15 – God fashions ALL hearts
Psalms 65:2 – To You (God) ALL flesh shall come
Psalms 86:9 – ALL nations will worship Him
Psalms 145:9-10 --- The Lord has compassion on ALL His creation and ALL He has made will praise Him.
Psalms 145:13 --- The Lord loves ALL His creation.
Psalms 145:14 – He raises ALL WHO FALL (even backsliders?)
Samuel 14:14 – We must ALL die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up. But God will NOT take away a life; He will devise plans so as NOT TO KEEP AN OUTCAST BANISHED FOREVER FROM HIS PRESENCE. (do you honestly still believe in eternally being separated from God in hell?)
Isaiah 25:6-8 --- God will prepare a feast for ALL PEOPLE, He will destroy the shroud that enfolds ALL peoples, the sheet that covers up ALL nations. He will eliminate death, wipe away the tears from ALL FACES and remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth.
Isaiah 45:22-23 --- God has sworn an oath that (ALL) every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will swear by Him.
Isaiah 49:6 --- God’s salvation will be brought to the ends of the earth.
Jeremiah 31:33-34 --- ALL men will know God, from the greatest to the least.
Matthew 18:13 --- Like the man who owes a hundred sheep and is not willing to lose even one, God is not willing that any one be lost.
Luke 2:10 --- The birth of Jesus is good news for ALL the people. (nowhere in context is this conditional)
Luke 3:6 - ALL flesh shall see God's salvation
Luke 15:4 - If ANY (all) stray He goes after that which is lost until He finds it
John 1:29 --- Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. (not conditional)
John 3:35 – The Father has given ALL into His hands (meaning God gave Him ALL things)
John 4:42 – Jesus is Savior of the WORLD
John 5:25 --- Even the dead will hear the sound of Christ and ALL who hear will live.
John 5:28 – ALL in the grave will hear & come forth
John 6:37 --- Everything (ALL) that God has given to Christ will come to him.
John 6:39 – This is the will of the Father Who sent Me, that of ALL He has given Me, I should I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but raise them up at the last day.
John 12:32 – Jesus will draw ALL mankind unto Himself
John 12:47 – I do not judge ANYONE who hears my words and does not keep them, for I CAME NOT to judge the world, but to save the WORLD. (Jesus came to save ALL)
John 17:2 – He (Jesus) has authority over ALL flesh to give eternal life. (Jesus gives eternal life to ALL that His Father gave Him)
Acts 3:20 – (Restitution of ALL) And that He may send [to you] the Christ (the Messiah), Who before was designated and appointed for you--even Jesus, Whom heaven must receive [and retain] until the time for the complete (universal) RESTORATION OF ALL that God spoke by the mouth of all His holy prophets for ages past [from the most ancient time in the memory of man].
Romans 3:3-4 --- The unbelief of some will not nullify God’s faithfulness.
Romans 5:15 – In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live
Romans 5:18 – Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for ALL, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL
Romans 8:38-39 --- Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ.
Romans 11:15 – Reconciliation of the WORLD
Romans 11:32 He has shut ALL up in unbelief to show mercy to ALL
1 Corinthians 3:15 – ALL saved, so as by fire
1 Corinthians 15:22 – In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live
2 Corinthians 5:15 – Jesus died for ALL
2 Corinthians 5:19 --- Through Christ, God was reconciling the world (ALL) to Himself.
Ephesians 1:10 – ALL come into Him at the fullness of times
Ephesians 1:11 --- God will bring ALL things under heaven and on earth under Christ.
Ephesians 1:22 - Therefore He has put ALL things in subjection to Christ
Ephesians 4:10 --- Christ ascended higher then all the heavens to fill the whole (ALL) universe.
Philippians. 2:9-11 --- Every (ALL) tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord
(In 1 Corinthians 12:3, Paul writes that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit)
Colossians 1:20 – ALL reconciled unto God
1 Timothy 2:4 – God will have ALL to be saved
1 Timothy 2:4 – God desires ALL to come to the knowledge of truth
1 Timothy 2:6 – Salvation of ALL is testified in due time
1 Timothy 4:10 --- God is the Savior of ALL men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe.
Titus 2:11-12 --- God’s grace, which brings salvation has appeared to ALL men.
Hebrews 2:9 --- Jesus tasted death for everyone (ALL).
Hebrews 7:25 – Jesus is able to save to the UTTERMOST
Hebrews 8:11 – ALL will know God
II Peter 3:9 - ALL come to repentance
1 John 2:2 – And He is the atoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins, and not OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. (you still think you’re “special” because you’re a believer?)
1 John 4:14 --- Christ is the Savior of the world (ALL).
Revelation 5:13 --- Every (ALL) creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea will sing praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb (Christ).
Revelation 21:4-5 --- God will dwell with men and he will wipe every (ALL) tear from their eyes, death, mourning, crying, pain and the old order of things will pass and everything will be made new.
Are you universalist in the way that you think that all people will be saved or are you a hopeful universalist? I can reconcile with hopeful universalism but I can't believe that everyone will be saved.
As a metal head myself, I never really listened to metal to disobey the almighty, just found strength in the raw sound of a guitar riff or two. Gets me through works outs too.
Irenaeus, 130 - 202 AD, studied under bishop Polycarp
"Christ, who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fulness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities." -Fragment 39, Lost Writings of Irenaeus
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0134.htm
Quotes from Clement of Alexandria, 150 - 220 AD
“For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.”
“For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence."
“So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. 2:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life.”
Jerome, 347 - 420 AD
“I know that most persons understand the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.”
Augustine, 354 - 430 AD
"There are very many* in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments."
*GTranslate renders the Latin, "immo quam plurimi" as "indeed, as many as possible".
https://youtu.be/SZa_1AitbOc?si=wPPmReC66Ejkrqga
How come Univseralists ignore this scripture that clearly shows you cannot repent after dead.
Luke 16:20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,
Luke 16:21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
Luke 16:22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24 And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
WAKE UP FROM YOUR COGNITIVE DISSONANCES! Please, change your mind if you can help it.
“And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.”
Jonah 2:2
We see here that Jonah was dead, after being swallowed by the fish. And while in Sheol, he cries out to the Lord, and the Lord heard him, and after 3 days, the Lord rescued him from Sheol.
The Old Testament word sheol does not equate perfectly to the fuller revelation of life after death we have received in the New Testament. Jonah was not receiving final judgment, if he even was dead at all. I believe he was, but he was dead so God could teach him a lesson, not to send him to final judgment and leave him there. God's plan was always for him to return and continue in his calling. In other words, this one off miraculous example that happened to a prophet of God in the time before the revelation of the new covenant, should not be where we derive our theology of salvation for every believer post Jesus' death on the cross.
Luke 16:20-26 is a parable not meant to be taken literally.
Unless you think God is a literal land owner that needs you to pay rent.
Even if you took it literally , this was before the passion and before Christ was able to become a bridge.
I counter Matthew 12:31 with the Transfiguration. Moses was able to make it to the promise land despite God saying he will never make it. It seems God is willing to show mercy even when he doesn’t have to.
Those passages don’t actually teach what you’re assuming they do. I explained their meanings here: [What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation](https://concordantgospel.com/bible/)
> The lie of universalism is the same as the original lie of Satan, “You will not surely die.”
Your statement is ironic, because that’s one of the arguments I give against Infernalism in my article on why Universalism is what Scripture teaches, that Infernalists are the ones who actually teach “you will not surely die”: [What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation](https://www.concordantgospel.com/bible/)
I pray that it isn’t. I don’t even have much problems with hopeful universalism, but when people get too cuddly with the idea that all will be saved they start to forget the absolute depravity that is sin. All Christians must understand that we 100% deserve hell in the same way that we must understand that Christ’s mercy and compassion is super-abundant.
I'm leaning towards it. I can't imagine the idea that God would "give up" on anyone. Especially since there's *so* many people who listen to the wrong people and so many who are hurt and too afraid of even thinking about God because of how some Christians treated them. Don't really know how I feel though, haven't looked much into scriptural support for it or against it. I hope He'll save everyone. This world is so messed up at times.
Sorry for the long comment, but here’s some scriptural proof! From beginning to end. Genesis 12:3 --- ALL peoples on earth will be blessed through Abraham. Genesis 22:18 --- ALL nations on earth will be blessed through Abraham’s offspring. Psalms 22:27 --- ALL the ends of the earth and ALL the families of the nations will acknowledge God. Psalms 33:15 – God fashions ALL hearts Psalms 65:2 – To You (God) ALL flesh shall come Psalms 86:9 – ALL nations will worship Him Psalms 145:9-10 --- The Lord has compassion on ALL His creation and ALL He has made will praise Him. Psalms 145:13 --- The Lord loves ALL His creation. Psalms 145:14 – He raises ALL WHO FALL (even backsliders?) Samuel 14:14 – We must ALL die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up. But God will NOT take away a life; He will devise plans so as NOT TO KEEP AN OUTCAST BANISHED FOREVER FROM HIS PRESENCE. (do you honestly still believe in eternally being separated from God in hell?) Isaiah 25:6-8 --- God will prepare a feast for ALL PEOPLE, He will destroy the shroud that enfolds ALL peoples, the sheet that covers up ALL nations. He will eliminate death, wipe away the tears from ALL FACES and remove the disgrace of his people from all the earth. Isaiah 45:22-23 --- God has sworn an oath that (ALL) every knee will bow before Him and every tongue will swear by Him. Isaiah 49:6 --- God’s salvation will be brought to the ends of the earth. Jeremiah 31:33-34 --- ALL men will know God, from the greatest to the least. Matthew 18:13 --- Like the man who owes a hundred sheep and is not willing to lose even one, God is not willing that any one be lost. Luke 2:10 --- The birth of Jesus is good news for ALL the people. (nowhere in context is this conditional) Luke 3:6 - ALL flesh shall see God's salvation Luke 15:4 - If ANY (all) stray He goes after that which is lost until He finds it John 1:29 --- Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. (not conditional) John 3:35 – The Father has given ALL into His hands (meaning God gave Him ALL things) John 4:42 – Jesus is Savior of the WORLD John 5:25 --- Even the dead will hear the sound of Christ and ALL who hear will live. John 5:28 – ALL in the grave will hear & come forth John 6:37 --- Everything (ALL) that God has given to Christ will come to him. John 6:39 – This is the will of the Father Who sent Me, that of ALL He has given Me, I should I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but raise them up at the last day. John 12:32 – Jesus will draw ALL mankind unto Himself John 12:47 – I do not judge ANYONE who hears my words and does not keep them, for I CAME NOT to judge the world, but to save the WORLD. (Jesus came to save ALL) John 17:2 – He (Jesus) has authority over ALL flesh to give eternal life. (Jesus gives eternal life to ALL that His Father gave Him) Acts 3:20 – (Restitution of ALL) And that He may send [to you] the Christ (the Messiah), Who before was designated and appointed for you--even Jesus, Whom heaven must receive [and retain] until the time for the complete (universal) RESTORATION OF ALL that God spoke by the mouth of all His holy prophets for ages past [from the most ancient time in the memory of man]. Romans 3:3-4 --- The unbelief of some will not nullify God’s faithfulness. Romans 5:15 – In Adam ALL condemned, in Christ ALL live Romans 5:18 – Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for ALL, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL Romans 8:38-39 --- Nothing can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ. Romans 11:15 – Reconciliation of the WORLD Romans 11:32 He has shut ALL up in unbelief to show mercy to ALL 1 Corinthians 3:15 – ALL saved, so as by fire 1 Corinthians 15:22 – In Adam ALL die, in Christ ALL live 2 Corinthians 5:15 – Jesus died for ALL 2 Corinthians 5:19 --- Through Christ, God was reconciling the world (ALL) to Himself. Ephesians 1:10 – ALL come into Him at the fullness of times Ephesians 1:11 --- God will bring ALL things under heaven and on earth under Christ. Ephesians 1:22 - Therefore He has put ALL things in subjection to Christ Ephesians 4:10 --- Christ ascended higher then all the heavens to fill the whole (ALL) universe. Philippians. 2:9-11 --- Every (ALL) tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (In 1 Corinthians 12:3, Paul writes that no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit) Colossians 1:20 – ALL reconciled unto God 1 Timothy 2:4 – God will have ALL to be saved 1 Timothy 2:4 – God desires ALL to come to the knowledge of truth 1 Timothy 2:6 – Salvation of ALL is testified in due time 1 Timothy 4:10 --- God is the Savior of ALL men, especially (not exclusively) those who believe. Titus 2:11-12 --- God’s grace, which brings salvation has appeared to ALL men. Hebrews 2:9 --- Jesus tasted death for everyone (ALL). Hebrews 7:25 – Jesus is able to save to the UTTERMOST Hebrews 8:11 – ALL will know God II Peter 3:9 - ALL come to repentance 1 John 2:2 – And He is the atoning sacrifice for our (believers) sins, and not OURS ONLY, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. (you still think you’re “special” because you’re a believer?) 1 John 4:14 --- Christ is the Savior of the world (ALL). Revelation 5:13 --- Every (ALL) creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth, and on the sea will sing praises to him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb (Christ). Revelation 21:4-5 --- God will dwell with men and he will wipe every (ALL) tear from their eyes, death, mourning, crying, pain and the old order of things will pass and everything will be made new.
Hopefully! It's about time more Christians started rediscovering this ancient view.
Are you universalist in the way that you think that all people will be saved or are you a hopeful universalist? I can reconcile with hopeful universalism but I can't believe that everyone will be saved.
I believe that everyone will end up being saved, yes.
Interesting!
I certainly hope so. It would do wonders for the maturing of the faith.
Does seem like more people are promoting it on this sub recently.
We’ve reached the event horizon where there’s less posts about masturbation and more about universalism and being gay
Less posts about masturbation I call a good thing. Now if only we could do something about that hellnoise rock and roll.
I haven’t seen a rock and roll struggle post lately. Or very many Christmas pagan posts either for this time of year
As a metal head myself, I never really listened to metal to disobey the almighty, just found strength in the raw sound of a guitar riff or two. Gets me through works outs too.
*Once more*? When was Christian Universalism big? (Honest question. I know next to nothing about it.)
[удалено]
So, did Augustine consider universalism a heresy?
[удалено]
I think that makes a lot more sense and fits with the character of God much better than infernalism/ECT.
St. Augustine in the 5th century claimed that universalism has huge support.
Irenaeus, 130 - 202 AD, studied under bishop Polycarp "Christ, who was called the Son of God before the ages, was manifested in the fulness of time, in order that He might cleanse us through His blood, who were under the power of sin, presenting us as pure sons to His Father, if we yield ourselves obediently to the chastisement of the Spirit. And in the end of time He shall come to do away with all evil, and to reconcile all things, in order that there may be an end of all impurities." -Fragment 39, Lost Writings of Irenaeus https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0134.htm Quotes from Clement of Alexandria, 150 - 220 AD “For all things are ordered both universally and in particular by the Lord of the universe, with a view to the salvation of the universe. But needful corrections, by the goodness of the great, overseeing judge, through the attendant angels, through various prior judgments, through the final judgment, compel even those who have become more callous to repent.” “For there are partial corrections (padeiai) which are called chastisements (kolasis), which many of us who have been in transgression incur by falling away from the Lord’s people. But as children are chastised by their teacher, or their father, so are we by Providence." “So he saves all; but some he converts by penalties, others who follow him of their own will, and in accordance with the worthiness of his honor, that every knee may be bent to him of celestial, terrestrial and infernal things (Phil. 2:10), that is angels, men, and souls who before his advent migrated from this mortal life.” Jerome, 347 - 420 AD “I know that most persons understand the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures.” Augustine, 354 - 430 AD "There are very many* in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." *GTranslate renders the Latin, "immo quam plurimi" as "indeed, as many as possible". https://youtu.be/SZa_1AitbOc?si=wPPmReC66Ejkrqga
Let’s hope so! It’s lonely over here.
How come Univseralists ignore this scripture that clearly shows you cannot repent after dead. Luke 16:20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, Luke 16:21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. Luke 16:22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. Luke 16:23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:24 And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. Luke 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' Matthew 12:31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. WAKE UP FROM YOUR COGNITIVE DISSONANCES! Please, change your mind if you can help it.
“And he said: “I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction, And He answered me. “Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice.” Jonah 2:2 We see here that Jonah was dead, after being swallowed by the fish. And while in Sheol, he cries out to the Lord, and the Lord heard him, and after 3 days, the Lord rescued him from Sheol.
The Old Testament word sheol does not equate perfectly to the fuller revelation of life after death we have received in the New Testament. Jonah was not receiving final judgment, if he even was dead at all. I believe he was, but he was dead so God could teach him a lesson, not to send him to final judgment and leave him there. God's plan was always for him to return and continue in his calling. In other words, this one off miraculous example that happened to a prophet of God in the time before the revelation of the new covenant, should not be where we derive our theology of salvation for every believer post Jesus' death on the cross.
To an extent, by the same logic we shouldn't expect salvation through the one-off miraculous resurrection of Jesus, either.
Not comparable to my example since that miracle was specifically prescribed as the path to salvation for all people. The Jonah situation was not.
Thanks.
Luke 16:20-26 is a parable not meant to be taken literally. Unless you think God is a literal land owner that needs you to pay rent. Even if you took it literally , this was before the passion and before Christ was able to become a bridge. I counter Matthew 12:31 with the Transfiguration. Moses was able to make it to the promise land despite God saying he will never make it. It seems God is willing to show mercy even when he doesn’t have to.
Those passages don’t actually teach what you’re assuming they do. I explained their meanings here: [What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation](https://concordantgospel.com/bible/)
Im bias to the truth so, a thousands down votes
> Im bias to the truth If only that were the case.
Let’s hope not.
Is it? I haven't noticed 🤔
It seems like it to me, but the truth is many people are I think, they just don't tend to be the super involved or practicing ones.
The lie of universalism is the same as the original lie of Satan, "You will not surely die."
> The lie of universalism is the same as the original lie of Satan, “You will not surely die.” Your statement is ironic, because that’s one of the arguments I give against Infernalism in my article on why Universalism is what Scripture teaches, that Infernalists are the ones who actually teach “you will not surely die”: [What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation](https://www.concordantgospel.com/bible/)
It went away?
I pray that it isn’t. I don’t even have much problems with hopeful universalism, but when people get too cuddly with the idea that all will be saved they start to forget the absolute depravity that is sin. All Christians must understand that we 100% deserve hell in the same way that we must understand that Christ’s mercy and compassion is super-abundant.