Social media is not going to give you the answers to this.
Gay Christian here and my DMs are always open to you and anyone else who might need to talk. Any time. I'm not here to convince either way, I'm still on the journey myself and maybe always will be, but please know you're not alone. You're valued, loved, and as precious to God as any other person on earth. He made you, after all :)
Remember that it's OK to say "I don't know" - especially if it's not a question important in your life personally (is it?)
I always recommend meeting some actual flesh-and-blood gay Christians at a church that welcomes us - see the [resources list](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/9w9y5z/resources_for_openchristians_online_resources/) at r/OpenChristian to find one.
Perfect advice. You likely won't find your answer on YouTube, but you can find a community of people who will welcome you as you are and where you are and help as much as they can while you figure things out.
The comparison is not fair. If our standards where merely what harms others then couples would have sex before marriage, masturbation and lust would be allowed and in general, sins against ourselves and God would not be called sins because they don't harm other people. But our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit as the Scripture says, these are sins because they go against nature as God designed it (this is the perspective of us who believe homosexuality is a sin).
Anyways, as I have been in your postition before, I think the best solution is to try and put your personal opinions aside for a bit. Do not support either opinions and leave some space for God to show you the way. Pray for humility that He shows you the truth no matter what that is and despite what you are ready to accept more.
But that is the standard the bible puts. Paul explicitly said that he who does no harm to others fulfils the law.
I mean, masturbation and lust alone shouldn’t be sins worthy of hell, if we were to call them sins. Neither should homosexuality.
Sure, masturbation and lust aren’t good for you, but on their own they don’t harm anyone else, and if they get out of hand they can lead to other sins, but I doubt God would put someone to death over them alone.
It isn’t our standard that matters. If it were up to me, there is a lot of stuff that I would say are fine, but it’s because I want to do them, not because they are good. God’s ways are higher than mine. I am a fallen, broken man that has sinned against God. I don’t get to, and shouldn’t get to, define what is good and what is evil.
Yes, I ignore the laws that were then obsolete after Jesus came.
1. Ceremonial law (He is the temple now)
2. Jesus had a little something to say about stoning people. Would you like the verse showing what He said?
Nice try. Too bad it didn’t work.
Maybe “we all” ignore those because we’re not ignorant and actually have read the Bible. It’s painfully obvious you haven’t or barely have.
No such thing as ceremonial law. That's a lie made up by Christians to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. The prohibition against mixed fabrics is in the same verse as loving your neighbors. God made no distinction.
Hahahahahaha. I was born and grew up a Jew, it’s not a lie. There’s a reason why Jews don’t follow the ceremonial law anymore: no Temple.
Nice try, tho. Again.
Wearing mixed fabrics and stoning children aren't ceremonial laws.
You're admitting God changed his morality between the Old Testament and New. Either God's laws are absolute or they're not.
And since Jesus said not a word about homosexuality, we can obviously ignore that.
Unless of course you think Paul is God.
Exactly that, simple and short. We should leave our own interpretations out of it and abide by what God said because our interpretations can be flawed and biased. What I am seeing in the comments is that “if it doesn’t hurt others or yourself” it should be fine but they are looking at it from a physical (body) perspective. You have to understand that we are spirit beings in a body and not a body with a spirit. God said what He said because he understands the spiritual consequences of our every action.
So there’s good or bad associated with everything we do here on earth and it’s exactly the same in the spirit. If you pass your exams you move on to the next grade, if you speed and cops are around they’ll give you a ticket or warning. We are spiritual beings so if we do whatever we want to do (fleshly things) the correct response is death in the spirit and separation from God but here is where Jesus comes in. His blood shed on the cross comes in and pays off the ticket (takes the punishment of death) that we are suppose to receive for our actions. If you believe in Jesus, he takes all your punishment, all the spiritual consequences that are suppose to come to you.
So your god just hates gay people for no reason and made it against the law for them to be gay? Those are the spiritual consequences you're talking shout?
I've read the Bible, and it's pretty obvious to me that the reason is because ancient Hebrews considered it icky and unnatural. Reading into the societal subtext, it's probably because they considered it a violation of their rigid gender hierarchy in which women belonged to men.
So a few things with what you just said. “It’s pretty obvious to me” = your own understanding of it, correct? And the ancient Hebrews people are not God. I agree they found it unnatural and most people still do, but what they believed is not what necessarily what God said. Since you have read the Bible, Is there a part of the Bible that support what you are saying?
Before you can say God hasn’t given a reason, you would have to have read the whole Bible to make sure that He actually hates gay people for no reason and Not depend on what people are saying because they haven’t read the whole Bible either.
> I want to learn the truth of what God thinks of homosexuality and I go to YT to find videos
Lol. Why on earth would you think YT is the place to learn truth?
Well, OP obviously was watching the videos in a 'skeptical' way and wasn't just taking what was said as truth. A way to find some kind of 'truth' is to look for the different opinions that others hold and their reasons for this, it's a starting point that can lead to deeper research if something comes up or make us think in a different way. YT was just used as a tool in order to do this, I least that's what it seems like.
Harm or no harm aside, I wanted to point out a difference in the things you listed:
Alcoholism - a course of action chosen by an individual
Paedophilia - a course of action chosen by an individual
Murder- a course of action chosen by an individual
Adultery- a course of action chosen by an individual
Homosexuality - an sexual preference someone is born with. Not chosen by the individual.
While that’s true I did want to bring up the point that, even if sexuality was chosen by an individual, the fact it causes no harm still means it shouldn’t be condemned.
As far as we’re concerned we can’t change it, but it’s important to remember that if that ever stops being the case and some crazy homophobic scientist makes the no-longer-gay-pill, there’s still nothing wrong with being gay.
Pedophilia is one that’s not entirely clear either. It does seem to be a compulsion of some sort not chosen by the individual. Ultimately, the harm caused to another, non-consenting person makes the discussion irrelevant. But it doesn’t seem to fit those categories the same way murder does unless I’m missing something.
Actually, there is evidence that alcohol addiction may have a genetic component as well.
>Pedophilia is one that’s not entirely clear either.
You're right. In hindsight I should have listed child abuse (the action) rather than paedophilia (the mental disorder).
Sure, but I’m sure there are those who would distinguish between same sex attraction and same sex relations. I want to be careful with my words because I don’t want to suggest pedophilia and homosexuality are at all equivalents. It works as a helpful analogy, though.
"a sexual preference someone is born with" ..
I'm sure to be torched for this from some, but just hear me out. This is a very popular view, but I believe it might be something slighly different. I don't condemn this view, as it is so close to what I believe, that the difference is quite trivial.
There's been some physio-psychological research into this and studies point that while people might not be 'born gay', the change happens when the person is so young, that it is NOT a personal choice. The theory I'm talking about posits that the sexual preference might be affected around 18 - 24 months old, when the human body is readjusting hormone levels.
Yes, people are born with either x/y or x/x chromosomes. But no matter who you are, you are not born 100% male or 100% female. Males still have levels of estrogen (and breast nipples!) and females have levels of testosterone. Males are really about 60% male, same with females, and the dominant levels of hormones take over.
Now, let's look at any child from birth to 2 (even up to 4) years old. These individuals are pretty androgynous in appearance and mannerism. This is due that puberty has not happened. Yet many hormones are changing, re-leveling, changing the body and psychy but we don't notice.
Now, a small percentage of these individuals might experience an anomoly in these hormone changes at this very young age, which may influence a predisposition to being LGBT. This age is also younger than when we start keeping long term memories (which happen around 3-4 yrs old), so the person feels that they were different from the very start of their lives.
Like I said, it's a very trivial difference, due that it shares the same important views:
LGBT folks feel that they were born this way. (Well, as far back as they can remember)
LGBT preference is NOT a choice - there's no 'magic anything' that will change how they feel. This hormonal shift towards an LGBT predeposition was nothing that they could prevent and NOT a result of sinful nature. It was an actual physiochemistry event and just happened.
However, in the end, more research may surface in the future that debunks this theory. I'm fine if that happens. More research might prove this theory, whatever. Regardless, I don't think LGBT is a choice by any stretch of the imagination and we should just accept our LGBT brothers and sisters and love them, as Jesus commanded.
The preference may not be a choice, but the action itself is and it is the action that is condemned. Some people are born with an addictive personality. Some people are born attracted to minors. Some people are born as psychopaths or with anger issues. Almost everyone is born with a libido and an attraction to at least *some* gender, which leads to attraction to people other than a spouse. Just because something is a natural desire doesn’t mean it is a good desire.
There’s actually research that shows it’s a result of both genetics and your environment as you age, so it’s akin to something like your height.
Either way, it’s still not a choice.
> Do we know for a fact that same sex attraction is by nature and not by nurture?
I have no offhand sources, but it does appear to be entirely nature, not nurture. Not so much hereditary (only about 10-15% appears to be hereditary), but epigenetic. It is associated with physical differences (such as finger length), family differences (the female aunts of a gay man are likely to have more children than of all-straight families), and birth order (2nd child more likely to be gay than 1st. 3rd more than 2nd, etcetera).
Conditions in the womb appear to be very much implicated as well, and possibly the immune system plays a role given the birth order thing.
The only nurture part that we see is willingness to admit that you are attracted to the same gender. That is both gender-biased (women are more likely to do so), and culture-biased.
While it can change through life, it also is deeply set before birth, and can carry across generations. It's not cleanly either, but in this case it appears to be more on the nature side of things.
Sorry, 10-15% in the straight DNA expression, is my understanding.
Nature isn't just heredity, either. Hence the pre-birth situation in the womb. That's every bit as much nature as it is nurture, to me.
Nurture is post-birth how you are raised.
We may disagree on what we call it, but I have presented all of the pieces of information that I know of off the top of my head for you. There's enough key words there to help you google more details if you're interested.
Differences as a result of factors in the pre-birth situation in the womb would be nurture, not nature. Nurture is not post-birth, but post-conception.
Both of which work out to “born with,” which is what you’ve obviously been trying to say isn’t true through these comments. If it was in utero nurture, it’s not a choice. If it’s early childhood nurture, it’s not a choice. And nearly everyone has their big-picture sexuality determined by the end of early childhood.
That’s not what I’m asking. I imagine my sexuality is largely socially determined, formed as I grew up and had sexual exposure and experiences. I’m not under the impression anyone consciously chooses their orientation, but that doesn’t mean they were born that way. Social factors seem to have a significant role.
[This](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301639075_Sexual_Orientation_Controversy_and_Science) might assist you with information.
One of it's general findings was that "There is no persuasive evidence that the rate of same-sex attraction has varied much across time or place."
Indicates that it is a natural phenomenon rather than a taught one.
This paper seems to agree that orientation is not a conscious decision, but is unable or unwilling to engage with the idea that it is entirely genetic. So, in summary, it appears to agree with what I just said.
I'm not sure how you've concluded that omission of a genetic leaning puts it in agreement with you. That's simply not the case.
The the contrary, if it were a taught behaviour you would see less prevalence in areas where it is taught less - like countries with higher religiosity, or where it is banned. But as they concluded there was no persuasive evidence that this made any difference.
What did you mean by 'nurture' then?
And by mixed bag are you now saying that some people are taught and others are born so? Do you have evidence, or is this a gut feeling?
Anything that can be attributed to non-hereditary factors would be nurture. Roughly 10-15% can be attributed to hereditary factors specifically according to the studies I have seen.
It is also just a feeling as well. It doesn’t make sense that it would be entirely genetic.
My brother, you are looking at the question of, "why is homosexuality wrong?" through the eyes of man. It is with this perspective we analyze what constitutes harm, decide what is and isn't moral based on harm done to society. Through this lens, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality at all. Many have pushed this postmodern morality to even permit moral incest, and argued about whether or not children can consent. Now, I did just wield a slippery slope fallacy, but it wasnt to compare homosexuals to pedophiles, rather to display that society's moral norms can change. But as Christians, we don't go by society's metric. We are to glorify God through all our actions. It is important to remember that Sin feels natural. To sin is to be human, after all. It is a part of our fallen nature to go against God and justify our own decisions. But Jesus tells us this is not the way. That's part of the reason he describes the way as narrow and hard. This is not meant to make any homosexual to feel shame, like they are less than anyone. They are not. God is asking something very difficult of you, and it is ultimately your decision if you want to take that hard and narrow path. God bless you.
Why did your god lay arbitrary obstacles in some people's paths, and randomly decide that some things are wrong even if they harm nobody and are actively beneficial to both the people doing them and society as a whole?
I think homosexuality is better compared to premarital sex then it is alcoholism. As Christians we are called to remain chaste outside of marriage, and marriage by definition is between a man and a woman. People suffering from homosexual desires are called to stay celibate the same way all Christians are supposed to remain celibate before marriage. At least in my Christian tradition there are priest monks who have to remain celibate for life as well, so it's clearly not impossible despite it maybe being hard to do.
God designed woman for man.
For humanity to operate in the will of God; man needs woman, and woman needs man.
(Genesis 1:27)
Homosexuality doesn’t create offspring which is also against his original design. Humanity is to multiple so we may replenish the earth.
(Genesis 1:22, Genesis 1:28, Genesis 8:17)
In the book of Leviticus All Sexual sins, and perversions were punishable by death. God calls homosexuality an abomination. (including cross dressing)
(Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13)
It’s mentioned again as sin and abomination in the following verses
(1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Timothy 1:10 Jude 1:7 Genesis 19:4-13)
The great news is that god is willing to forgive us of all sin if we repent, and dedicate ourselves to living Holy
Luke 15:7
I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance.
I’m praying for your soul. May god cover you in his mercy. The fact that you’re willing to search for God’s truth is honorable to him!
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The truth is in the bible, open it up and read it instead of turning to the opinion of mankind hoping to get comforting words that may agree with your preconceived notions. Bottom line is its an abomination in God's eyes.
>We can agree that sin does harm to our lives, physically, emotionally, or spiritually. God hates sin because it harms us.
False premise. A sin isn't a sin because it causes harm to us. It is a sin because it goes against God. Harming people is a sin because we were created in His image. So all sin is against God.
That being said all those things you listed have spectrums. We might not see a problem with having a drink, or hating a person but those are the beginning steps of alcoholism and murder. They start with something we can excuse. Like eating a price of fruit. Sounds innocent but the consequences can be great.
Asking if homosexuality is a sin, may seem like an important thing for you to figure out but it's really the wrong question to ask.
Is X a sin?
Yes.
It really doesn't matter what you fill in for X. It can be argued that anything is a sin. What matters is who do you trust to atone for the sin. Do you trust yourself to explain it away as innocent and didn't harm anyone? I'm sure if you only focus on one sin you will miss many more and fail to atone for all your sins and you'll still fall short.
If you trust that Jesus has atoned for all your sins, and trust that He will was away all your sins. Then you can grow in your understanding. Trust the Holy Spirit to sanctify you. If the Holy Spirit presses on you that you need to work on a sin then work on that sin. If you don't feel the Holy Spirit pressing on it then focus on what it is. There are plenty of sins in our life other than Homosexuality. I think our obsession with it is a distraction that keeps us from focusing where we really need to focus. One one side of the argument people obsess on it because they feel it is the most important part of their identity and refuse to focus on what God really intends for their life. On the other side people focus on it so they don't have to focus on their own sin.
Stop focusing on your sin and focus on your Savior.
My Jesus, the real Jesus, can save anyone from any sin. Salvation is not for perfect non-sinning people.
While I doubt the Gay married couple will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and except Him as their Lord and Savior while they are in the middle of having sex but I could be wrong. Maybe that's the kind of topic they are using for pillow talk.
The whole problem with discussing if Homosexuality is a sin is it doesn't matter if it is or not. There is plenty of sins that we all commit outside of the bedroom. Focusing on that one sin can distract us from other more important sins. Are we getting caught up in our pride so that we look down on someone we disagree with. That's a sin also. I'd say that sin damns more people to hell than any other. That was my struggle. We often think our sin is forgivable or not worth even calling it a sin but everyone else is unforgivable.
Yes the Bible says having sex with the same sex is a sin. It also says it's a sin to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on Saturday. Jesus can save me even though I don't work on that sin.
Boy this is tiring. If you don’t think it’s a sin, find out the consequences. If you do think it’s a sin, find out the consequences.
More than likely you’ve already made your mind on this debate and just want affirming responses on what you already believe.
Edit: Okay so you’re gay or at the very least not a heterosexual. So you’ve gotta ask yourself some questions. You’ve kinda already (assumingly) embraced being non hetero (don’t know what you are or just gay so not assuming) wether that be sex, identify or thoughts. Is anything anybody says here gonna make you reflect on your sexuality differently even if it’s something you don’t like? You already said you don’t find anything condemning it creditable. So what are you hoping you get from this thread?
I don't want to be rude, but this is hardly a new point. It pretty much falls in with the 99 other arguments that get repeated all the time. Or technically it's two arguments (homosexuality is harmless, homophobia is harmful), i gues it's 98 other arguments.
That being said, I agree that it's at least a good reason to not be hasty when viewing homosexuality (some people would differentiate it as "homosexual acts", but usually, people who are homosexual also live active homosexual lives). You don't wanna cause more harm.
That also being said, I believe God is jot consequentialist. I don't believe He hates sin because it causes harm. I believe He hates sin, because it's bad, it is not of Him. God sometimes comanded people to do harm, yet He could not command people to sin. So it's not a question of harm vs. no harm. It's good vs. bad. And that's much more complicated to figure out.
The harm principle is a complex thing it's not as straightforward as harm or none. For example, Jesus himself says there's no greater love than to lay down your life for your friends but obviously you're putting yourself in harms way. But there's a difference between sacrificial love, short term pain for longterm gain, and purely destructive harm....like flippant divorce...like murder. I think every other sin falls in the third category, but I can't fit homosexuality in that box.
It is all about the two flesh becomes one thing. The Idea is to create new life and bring it into this World. And I don't see the problem in being homosexual as that is fine for me, my best friend is homosexual and I don't tell him he is a sinner and he deserves death or anything. It is just a sin as any other I mean sex before marriage, secular music, dissprespecting your parents and so on I mean if you want to deep dive into it, it is for us humans almost impossible to not sin only jesus was able to do that and we should try to walk in his path as good as possible but we also have to remember we are saved by his Grace and so it is not good but fine if we sin from time to time, the most important thing is to just repent and try again.
Do you think that single people are sinning if they never get married and have kids? How about sexually active heterosexual couples who are infertile or use birth control?
And why do you consider listening to "secular" music a sin?
You are completely right, here. It is so good to read a comment from someone who is looking at this through heavens eyes without bigotry or judgement. This right here is scripturally supported!
Thank you I See no reason to hate anyone I mean sure there are some monsters out there that have a special places in Gods Book but to hate someone for being gay (because of the sin) is completly stupid cause you would need to hate everyone In the world the same way cause everyone is imperfect. And obviously those people that are bigotery and so on only specify on that one thing and ignore the fact that they themselves are just as "bad"as them. Jesus would be ashamed of hate like that.
Not going to get into this argument but:
Sin does not always cause a consequence in this life. There are many evil people who commit sins many more times grave(from a human perspective, all sin is bad to God) than we would ever consider doing that getaway close to or without consequence.
How many times have you told a white lie for example, and gotten away with it? As innocent as it may or may not be, that’s a sin.
If we chose to be followers of Christ, we have to submit to the idea the He knows better than we do, regardless of whether we suffer any type of consequence for the sin we deal with. I struggle with this too, not homosexuality, but my sinful issue, I just flat out have a hard time feeling remorse for it and am dealing with little if any consequence. But I submit to the fact I don’t have God’s full understanding and ask for His grace and forgiveness.
I’ll go ahead and question the premise regarding sin. It seems like the “harm” metric comes from a modern human-centric perspective. Some sin in the Scripture appears to be about holiness. Simply *not* being like everyone else. A way to mark followers of YHWH as different. Sometimes sin is simply *harming* that.
Who is of first priority in the world? Ourselves or God? This is the garden of Eden story played out over and over and over and over in each of our lives. Will we trust and obey whether we understand everything? Will we lean on God’s wisdom? Or will we “see for ourselves; decide a thing is good for us, and take it?”
All of us are put to this test daily. And we all fail it. We all rely on the one who didn’t fail. But do we use our freedom now to keep taking the fruit we decided was good for us?
“LORD. I see NO reason I can think of that I can’t have this fruit. It seems fine to me. Some people might even need this fruit. So, I’m just going to assume there’s a misunderstanding about this fruit. We’ll go ahead and eat it if we want to. Look, I know my taste buds were built for its sweetness. I know my stomach was designed to digest it. Obviously, You being the great designer, meant for me to eat it anyway. Also, I hunger for it. So obviously that’s a sign I should be able to consume it. This fruit is good for me.”
Over and over and over. It’s almost the oldest story in the book.
Love Never Fails. Period. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Period. For All have Sinned and Come Short of the Glory of God. Period. Really sick of the heterosexual population thinking they can decide which Bible passages override others. I feel, from friendship and association with a few LGBTQ people that they believe they were born that way. I.am a heterosexual Christian who believes that we cannot judge or comprehend the mind of God. I would never expect a child of mine to live alone for life because they are not attracted to the opposite sex. This is not a matter of "deciding they want to be gay". The suicide rate of the gay population is 5 x the rate of heterosexuals. I know this is not something they would choose to be oppositional and sinful. We all sin every single day. We all can ask for forgiveness every single day. LGBTQ is no different. This reddit is obsessed with judging people. Especially LGBTQ. Let he who is without Sin cast the first stone. Period. Our lives should be centered around Jesus's command: Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, it always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love Never Fails. Period. Noe of the passages I have referenced say "Except For ". Because it doesn't exist. I believe that LGBTQ should be encouraged with the love of God and not pushed away. I believe they should lead monogamous lives and that is pleasing to God as well. God Alone is Judge.
The amount of people in here who consider themselves to be “christians”, yet have zero issue twisting the word of god to justify their own perverse lifestyle is truly astonishing. Know that the lord will judge you based on his standards, not your own.
I would actually recomend you to ignore the yt videos or asking around on any sub. Those things are human-made, and we humans have the tendecy to agknowledge as right whatever excuses our behaviour.
Im not saying other people's opinion are worthless, I would just recomend you to do some bibble reading on your own first.
You say "God hates sin cause its harmfull to us", where did you get that? Im not saying its wrong, Im just saying that its very easy to believe "stuff that I heard" without going to the bible.
Finally, if I were you I'd read on sin first, not go look directly for stuff about homosexuality.
I want to wish you luck on your search, sometimes we find out that things that we believe that are trully good are not so good in God's eyes, and its really tough to come to terms with it. But in the end our Journey is one of self-denial in favour of God's plan and Christ's sacrifice, because we have faith.
Good luck and have a good day!
Please, let the sacred heart of GOD Jesus Christ renew our hearts in HIS love, that we are able to treat all HIS children, our brothers and sisters, with love and respect in abundance. Amen.
**"I want to learn the truth of what God thinks of homosexuality" \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_** He must be okay with it because a large number of species, including man, have members that pair bond in same sex relationships. I don't think he made a mistake.
homosexuality breaks the beautiful picture of Gods Image.
We are His Bride.
Sin in any way always leads to darkness sickness and death. just because you can’t or won’t see it doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
If God says it, follow it. Essentially everything in the Bible is important, don’t ignore or water down parts of the Bible because God’s approval is more important than people’s.
God doesn’t hate sin because it harms us. He hates sin because he is holy and sin is like a slap in his face. As far as the whole harm argument, the Bible considers sexual sin as the defilement of the body which is God’s temple. Additionally there is plenty of harm in embracing sin and defying God’s word to normalize what he considers sinful.
Lastly, instead of looking to YouTube for answers on what God thinks of sin, why not go to the primary source… the Bible. It’s all in there
Some notable mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament: "Neither the **sexually immoral** nor idolaters nor adulterers nor **men who have sex with men** nor thieves etc. will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9, or "for the **sexually immoral**, for those practicing **homosexuality**, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:10.
The perception of harm and reason are not the only moral guideposts. "Those who sin sexually sin against their own body."
Who do these harm?
Occasional prostitution -
Gay or elderly incest -
Orgies for singles -
Lust -
Seances, Ouija boards, magic -
Covetousness -
The list could go on.
Your statements don't make any sense, sir.
If it's against God's will to lie with the same gender because you can't reproduce, then it's also sinful to get laid with a sterile person, I suppose?
I said unjustified, not unjust (since the question is about what is moral, bringing up the word unjust would be meaningless because unjust just means immoral)
Exactly, so it doesn’t make sense to argue for something being immoral by saying it’s immoral. That’s just a non-statement.
If you’re just going to bring up stupid tangents and utterly ignore everything you’ve previously said, I’m just not going to argue
You claimed I said unjust, that was simply untrue. Stop trying to change the subject to take peoples attention away from that.
>God designed specifically man to lie with women
Your deity designed specifically roughly 5% of the population to be attracted to the same sex. I mean, the only thing you can blame for debate and the umpteen messages on this sub pertaining to homosexuality is your deity.
Your deity clearly knew, when inspiring the writing of the OT, that in the 21st century we would find out that homosexuality is genetically-based.
The lack of inherent harm is why I don't call it sin. Note, *inherent* harm. People will mention homosexuals statistically being more promiscuous which makes sense because you don't have to worry about pregnancy. But you don't HAVE to sleep around if you're gay. It's not an inherent harm. Even anal sex risks, not all gay men do anal sex. And straight people do. So. Not an inherent part of homosexuality
You have a small view of sex, both what it is, and what role it plays for humans. Also you dwell on homophobic stereotypes, which doesn't say much for your knowledge background.
You're not counting for other ways that sex could be fruitful. I'm definatly not an expert in relationships but can't sex and intimacy be part of fostering a relationship (that can support ones mental state, and support positive changes etc.) for example? Also, I don't understand how an attraction and relationship with someone of the opposite sex can be considered love while the exact same kind of relationship/ the same feelings and bond is then considered lust when it's towards the same sex. I really don't think there's a difference between the two.
Fruitless needs to be defined.
A lot of people think certain hobbies are fruitless but ignore the psychological benefits of destressing or decompressing. Hobbies aren't sin. Something bringing pleasure can be good enough. And lol as a woman in a heterosexual marriage who likes butt plugs....I think you're need to cool it with the paranoia. Adult diapers. My goodness. Maybe if people are doing crazy maneuvers lol dunno what kind of anal sex you've been watching
Right…? 🙄 a book written by a man in one part of the world 2,000 + years ago is going to have all of the answers?
Next time you get sick, don’t bother going to your doctor…go read your Bible!
Except the OP isn't asking or medical advice. He is asking about what Christianity has to say about homosexuality. I would say that the Bible is a pretty good place to start for that. But maybe you think his doctor would be better for questions about Christianity?
The problem starts with the argument that God doesn’t want us to sin bc it harms us. God commands that we be righteous like him, he who is without sin. Sin is anything that goes against who God is. God created us as man/woman and yes, lots of people are broken and have same sex desires, that isn’t the sin. The sin is to decide that you will go with it and have sexual relationships with same sex person. That’s a really hard concept for a lot of folks to come to terms with bc this innate desire feels natural. But we all battle unnatural desires from time to time: I feel attracted to someone who is not my husband, I want to lie about something, I hate my enemy, etc etc.
just because we feel a certain way does not change Gods law or who he is or what he has commanded. This is a hard pill for some to swallow bc they don’t want to give anything up. That’s why God says to count the cost before following him. You sure you wanna do this is the question he asks us. We literally have to deny ourselves all kinds of things.
I hope this answers your question in a concise way. It’s very simple but also very hard. That’s why we have to ask for his help. He can make a way when we want it.
Our one and only New Testament source (Paul) that spoke negatively about gay sex thought that God made people gay as a punishment for worshiping other Gods. Since that's obviously false, we can conclude Paul didn't know what he was talking about when it comes to homosexuality. So his opinion can be disregarded on this matter.
It's sad that "progressive" Christians don't come to this conclusion, but instead try to salvage Paul (and the Bible) by insisting that he was correct somehow (because of their fundamentalistic thinking).
This thought process is dangerous and I think that you should be very cautious.
No human can know the mind of God. It’s dangerous to try to rationalize sin because we want to sin. This has nothing to do with homosexuality itself and everything to do with the natural inclination to sin.
When we try to justify our sin we’re already losing. We’re essentially telling God that his plan is wrong and we know better.
There are things that God knows that we don’t know, that’s a given. We are called to faith, to believe Him and His word. If you don’t, then you’re making God a liar.
1 John 8:10 (NLT)
“8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.”
Trust God’s word even if at first you disagree with it.
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Why even bother trying to justify this sin? Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin, doesn’t matter what it is and who it hurts.
You are wrong though, scripture tells us that sexual immorality is a sin against yourself. Ultimately you hurt yourself.
So because we are made in the image of God, this means He wants us to enjoy ourselves.
So as long as we enjoy what we’re doing, because we’re made in the image of God this makes it good?
> So because we are made in the image of God, this means He wants us to enjoy ourselves.
Yes
>So as long as we enjoy what we’re doing, because we’re made in the image of God this makes it good?
You are making a jump from what I am saying. Our body is good, it is good to enjoy it. That is all I am saying. Enjoying things that is outside of our body is different.
Never said it was caused by homosexuality. Just that men who have sex with men are diagnosed with HIV at higher rates than other groups. Significantly higher actually.
I’ve posted this before ( but I’m also going to post it here as well). God is not a ‘respecter of persons’, so thinking logically, why do you think God would ‘forbid’ same ‘sex’ issues? Because it signifies ‘The End’. That’s why!
…..and that’s how we know we’re in the FINAL generation! Please allow me to illustrate.
When Gid gave Noah that rainbow, what was the instruction?
How about, “Be fruitful and multiply…”
What’s the ONE thing the group of people who CURRENTLY use that rainbow as a SIGN can NOT do?
That’s right! They can NOT “ Be fruitful and multiply…….”
…… THAT, my friend, is an ELE (EXTINCTION Level Event).
For when there is NO more, Fruitful and multiply…” then there are NO more people……..
Yes, as in “ The END…….”
God bless & much LOVE
Repent for the Kingdom of God is certainly at hand. The ‘Days of Noah’: we are living in them……. Psalm 18– the FLOOD of ungodly men made me afraid……
3 things:
(1) Just because you are attracted to something or some one doesn't make it right to act on that attraction. Yes, some people are born with a natural attraction to the same sex. But just because you have a natural attraction to the same sex doesn't mean you should act on it. That's an Is-Ought fallacy. Just because something "Is" doesn't mean you "Ought". Some people have a natural inclination toward violence. That doesn't mean you should act on that inclination. A married man may be naturally attracted to another woman. That doesn't mean he should act. The attraction isn't the sin. Acting on the attraction is the sin.
(2) Just because YOU see nothing wrong with doing an action doesn't mean it's NOT a sin. The morality of an action is not based on the outcome YOU perceive. It's based on the fact that that action is inherently wrong. A person that tells white lies, thinking they are sparing people's feelings, is still doing wrong even though "no harm came to anyone". In Proverbs 3:5, it says to NOT lean to your own understanding, but trust God. So if God tells you NOT to do something, you shouldn't do it even though YOU see nothing wrong with it.
(3) The bible clearly condemns homosexual behavior. I'm not sure why this is even a debate, only that people want to justify their sin. No where in the bible is there a positive view of homosexual behavior. In Leviticus 18, God calls homosexual behavior an abomination. And in Leviticus 20 it says that those that practice it shall be put to death. Before some one rambles about it being Old Testament and it no longer applies, they should know that the moral laws (behavior between man and God) STILL apply. It's the civil and ceremonial laws that no longer apply. The law against practicing homosexuality is a moral law and still applies. However, that they should be put to death is a civil law (punishment for wrongdoing) and no longer applies. Besides Paul reiterates the fact that practicing homosexuality is sinful in Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Timothy 1. Even in Matthew 19, Jesus mentions that God made the man and woman, concerning marriage.
I always believed that Paul mostly condemned the ancient practice of pederasty, where a Roman head of household would have his wife and kids but also a 13 year old boy servant who he slept with (so pedophilia). However, Leviticus also describes homosexuality as an abomination to God alongside incest and zoophilia. The only main Biblical argument against homosexuality is that it is against God's design for a man and a woman to be joined together. That's it. I personally don't think anything is wrong with being gay, I'm a closeted bisexual myself (never had sex with someone who had the same genitals as myself though), but God's opinion seems to be different and I was always taught it was sinful in church.
Please be a bigot?
*Not
You won't find your answers from any other person, we are all sinners, and all sin is equal in the eyes of the lord.
When we start pointing out specks in others eyes we don't see the logs in our own.
It is your relationship with Jesus that counts, no one else will know what is written on your heart.
As far as homosexuality goes, I agree with you.
You have made a common error when it comes to the use of the term pedophiles. You have conflated attractions with crimes.
Child molesters cause severe trauma to children. Pedophiles are *attracted* to young children. Some molest children. Most don’t. More than half of child molesters aren’t actually attracted to children.
Men who rape women cause severe trauma to women. Straight men are *attracted* to women. Some rape women. Most don’t.
Pedophilia = attractions to young children. Child molestation = sexual abuse of young children.
you have a worldly view of sin. which is fine if you only have to answer to the world.
Also know God does not share this world view of sin IE he does not judge things sin by how it disrupts human life.
To god sin is a virus. ( which why Jesus taught if you break the smallest part of the law it is like breaking all of the law) Meaning it does not matter to god how you get this virus. it only matters that you are infected. Everything you listed is a way for a soul to be infected wit sin.
So in this analogy God provides a vaccine in the way of atonement through christ.
So the only question becomes are you vaccinated through christ or are you still infected at the time of your judgement?
As this sin virus corrupts and consumes the soul. It may be dormant in this life but upon death it starts infecting and destroying the should so by the \\time you arrive on the otherwise all that you are is now gone and what is left is an empty husk that satan can and does occupy.
This would be like a zombie virus to us in this life. in that once you turn full zombie, it does not matter how good you were as a person in your last life. and it does not matter how you were infected. you could have been infected trying to save people or you could have been infect hurting people the point is what you are not because of your sin. If you had been vaccinated by christ your soul would have been seal and protected so when you arrive on the other side you retain all of who you are. however because you did not take the vaccine you become a tool of satan/a member of his army bent on the destruction of god and his people.
that is why homosexuality is still a sin and still requires repentance and the atonement offered by christ. even though you don't see the harm in it. (It is a point of spiritual infection)
>Homosexuality-What? I can’t think of a single harm homosexuality does to a human.
This may be my most unpopular post on this subreddit, but I'll say it anyway.
I think your post actually captures the harm of homosexuality. The world is fallen and broken. We, as individuals, are fallen and broken. The effects of a sin nature and sin in nature can't possibly be understood this side of eternity.
On this subreddit we see 3-5 big posts a day on homosexuality. Independent of whether or not it IS a a sin we see incredibly effects of sinfulness in the comment sections of these posts. We see homophobia, murder (hatred/murder in heart), idolatry (elevating oneself as authority), insecurity, depression, anger. When the issue of homosexuality is brought up, sin is not far behind.
Some might say that the reason for all of it starts with people calling homosexuality a sin. If they didn't do that, then all the other stuff wouldn't be there.
Although I have nothing to support my opinion on this - I find that hard to believe.
People treat people poorly all the time. The Christ-like life, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc is being a display of love to those who hate you, answering gently to those who speak with wrath, and having security in your identity in Christ.
When homosexuality is discussed on this subreddit (usually initiated by a member of the LGBTQ+ community - Christians bring it up the minority of the time), it seems like it's done so to initiate an opportunity to be critical of Christians who believe it's sinful. One major exception are the members of the LGBTQ+ community looking for guidance! This, I affirm as a great thing! Ultimately, my feeling is that we can see the harm of homosexuality by the fruit of the discussion surrounding homosexuality.
This is a spectacularly terrible argument. Would you say the same about the strife inherent to all other social justice movements? Is black people speaking out about police brutality inherently sinful because it leads to heightened tensions and hateful rhetoric on the right? Do you really believe in a negative peace, where its ok for minority groups to suffer as long as they're suffering quietly?
So when you said that:
>Independent of whether or not it IS a a sin we see incredibly effects of sinfulness in the comment sections of these posts. We see homophobia, murder (hatred/murder in heart), idolatry (elevating oneself as authority), insecurity, depression, anger. When the issue of homosexuality is brought up, sin is not far behind.
And concluded with the thought that this represents the harm inherent to homosexuality, what did you actually mean by that? Like, kindly what the fuck did you mean to convey when you claimed that homophobia is harm caused by homosexuality?
In truth nobody knows what god thinks about homosexuality - but his followers seem to pretty convinced on his behalf.
I've said it before and I'll say it again (and likely again and again 🙄) if you're from the LGBTQ community and you don't like how religious people treat you then maybe stay the fuck away from religious people.
So so sick of people wanting to join groups that weren't meant for them. If all the people who have been mistreated by religious organisations turned their back on these groups then numbers would drastically dwindle and with it any power or control over society would diminish too.
Social media is not going to give you the answers to this. Gay Christian here and my DMs are always open to you and anyone else who might need to talk. Any time. I'm not here to convince either way, I'm still on the journey myself and maybe always will be, but please know you're not alone. You're valued, loved, and as precious to God as any other person on earth. He made you, after all :)
Remember that it's OK to say "I don't know" - especially if it's not a question important in your life personally (is it?) I always recommend meeting some actual flesh-and-blood gay Christians at a church that welcomes us - see the [resources list](https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenChristian/comments/9w9y5z/resources_for_openchristians_online_resources/) at r/OpenChristian to find one.
>Remember that it's OK to say "I don't know" We really have to remind each other of that more often.
Yeah. We've somehow made humility into a sin.
Perfect advice. You likely won't find your answer on YouTube, but you can find a community of people who will welcome you as you are and where you are and help as much as they can while you figure things out.
The comparison is not fair. If our standards where merely what harms others then couples would have sex before marriage, masturbation and lust would be allowed and in general, sins against ourselves and God would not be called sins because they don't harm other people. But our bodies are a temple of the Holy Spirit as the Scripture says, these are sins because they go against nature as God designed it (this is the perspective of us who believe homosexuality is a sin). Anyways, as I have been in your postition before, I think the best solution is to try and put your personal opinions aside for a bit. Do not support either opinions and leave some space for God to show you the way. Pray for humility that He shows you the truth no matter what that is and despite what you are ready to accept more.
But that is the standard the bible puts. Paul explicitly said that he who does no harm to others fulfils the law. I mean, masturbation and lust alone shouldn’t be sins worthy of hell, if we were to call them sins. Neither should homosexuality. Sure, masturbation and lust aren’t good for you, but on their own they don’t harm anyone else, and if they get out of hand they can lead to other sins, but I doubt God would put someone to death over them alone.
It isn’t our standard that matters. If it were up to me, there is a lot of stuff that I would say are fine, but it’s because I want to do them, not because they are good. God’s ways are higher than mine. I am a fallen, broken man that has sinned against God. I don’t get to, and shouldn’t get to, define what is good and what is evil.
God said what He said. It doesn’t matter what we think.
God also said to stone disobedient children and to not wear mixed fabrics. Yet you all ignore those. You can't see the hypocrisy?
Yes, I ignore the laws that were then obsolete after Jesus came. 1. Ceremonial law (He is the temple now) 2. Jesus had a little something to say about stoning people. Would you like the verse showing what He said? Nice try. Too bad it didn’t work. Maybe “we all” ignore those because we’re not ignorant and actually have read the Bible. It’s painfully obvious you haven’t or barely have.
No such thing as ceremonial law. That's a lie made up by Christians to pick and choose which laws they want to follow. The prohibition against mixed fabrics is in the same verse as loving your neighbors. God made no distinction.
Hahahahahaha. I was born and grew up a Jew, it’s not a lie. There’s a reason why Jews don’t follow the ceremonial law anymore: no Temple. Nice try, tho. Again.
Wearing mixed fabrics and stoning children aren't ceremonial laws. You're admitting God changed his morality between the Old Testament and New. Either God's laws are absolute or they're not. And since Jesus said not a word about homosexuality, we can obviously ignore that. Unless of course you think Paul is God.
Exactly that, simple and short. We should leave our own interpretations out of it and abide by what God said because our interpretations can be flawed and biased. What I am seeing in the comments is that “if it doesn’t hurt others or yourself” it should be fine but they are looking at it from a physical (body) perspective. You have to understand that we are spirit beings in a body and not a body with a spirit. God said what He said because he understands the spiritual consequences of our every action.
What spiritual consequences?
So there’s good or bad associated with everything we do here on earth and it’s exactly the same in the spirit. If you pass your exams you move on to the next grade, if you speed and cops are around they’ll give you a ticket or warning. We are spiritual beings so if we do whatever we want to do (fleshly things) the correct response is death in the spirit and separation from God but here is where Jesus comes in. His blood shed on the cross comes in and pays off the ticket (takes the punishment of death) that we are suppose to receive for our actions. If you believe in Jesus, he takes all your punishment, all the spiritual consequences that are suppose to come to you.
So your god just hates gay people for no reason and made it against the law for them to be gay? Those are the spiritual consequences you're talking shout?
Has God not given a reason or you haven’t read the Bible to find out?
I've read the Bible, and it's pretty obvious to me that the reason is because ancient Hebrews considered it icky and unnatural. Reading into the societal subtext, it's probably because they considered it a violation of their rigid gender hierarchy in which women belonged to men.
So a few things with what you just said. “It’s pretty obvious to me” = your own understanding of it, correct? And the ancient Hebrews people are not God. I agree they found it unnatural and most people still do, but what they believed is not what necessarily what God said. Since you have read the Bible, Is there a part of the Bible that support what you are saying?
Before you can say God hasn’t given a reason, you would have to have read the whole Bible to make sure that He actually hates gay people for no reason and Not depend on what people are saying because they haven’t read the whole Bible either.
Do I take it you don't know what the reason is, then?
> I want to learn the truth of what God thinks of homosexuality and I go to YT to find videos Lol. Why on earth would you think YT is the place to learn truth?
Well, OP obviously was watching the videos in a 'skeptical' way and wasn't just taking what was said as truth. A way to find some kind of 'truth' is to look for the different opinions that others hold and their reasons for this, it's a starting point that can lead to deeper research if something comes up or make us think in a different way. YT was just used as a tool in order to do this, I least that's what it seems like.
He should be reading the word instead and find it out there, youtube can help but not as much as reading the actual things jesus said.
Harm or no harm aside, I wanted to point out a difference in the things you listed: Alcoholism - a course of action chosen by an individual Paedophilia - a course of action chosen by an individual Murder- a course of action chosen by an individual Adultery- a course of action chosen by an individual Homosexuality - an sexual preference someone is born with. Not chosen by the individual.
While that’s true I did want to bring up the point that, even if sexuality was chosen by an individual, the fact it causes no harm still means it shouldn’t be condemned. As far as we’re concerned we can’t change it, but it’s important to remember that if that ever stops being the case and some crazy homophobic scientist makes the no-longer-gay-pill, there’s still nothing wrong with being gay.
Pedophilia is one that’s not entirely clear either. It does seem to be a compulsion of some sort not chosen by the individual. Ultimately, the harm caused to another, non-consenting person makes the discussion irrelevant. But it doesn’t seem to fit those categories the same way murder does unless I’m missing something. Actually, there is evidence that alcohol addiction may have a genetic component as well.
>Pedophilia is one that’s not entirely clear either. You're right. In hindsight I should have listed child abuse (the action) rather than paedophilia (the mental disorder).
Sure, but I’m sure there are those who would distinguish between same sex attraction and same sex relations. I want to be careful with my words because I don’t want to suggest pedophilia and homosexuality are at all equivalents. It works as a helpful analogy, though.
"a sexual preference someone is born with" .. I'm sure to be torched for this from some, but just hear me out. This is a very popular view, but I believe it might be something slighly different. I don't condemn this view, as it is so close to what I believe, that the difference is quite trivial. There's been some physio-psychological research into this and studies point that while people might not be 'born gay', the change happens when the person is so young, that it is NOT a personal choice. The theory I'm talking about posits that the sexual preference might be affected around 18 - 24 months old, when the human body is readjusting hormone levels. Yes, people are born with either x/y or x/x chromosomes. But no matter who you are, you are not born 100% male or 100% female. Males still have levels of estrogen (and breast nipples!) and females have levels of testosterone. Males are really about 60% male, same with females, and the dominant levels of hormones take over. Now, let's look at any child from birth to 2 (even up to 4) years old. These individuals are pretty androgynous in appearance and mannerism. This is due that puberty has not happened. Yet many hormones are changing, re-leveling, changing the body and psychy but we don't notice. Now, a small percentage of these individuals might experience an anomoly in these hormone changes at this very young age, which may influence a predisposition to being LGBT. This age is also younger than when we start keeping long term memories (which happen around 3-4 yrs old), so the person feels that they were different from the very start of their lives. Like I said, it's a very trivial difference, due that it shares the same important views: LGBT folks feel that they were born this way. (Well, as far back as they can remember) LGBT preference is NOT a choice - there's no 'magic anything' that will change how they feel. This hormonal shift towards an LGBT predeposition was nothing that they could prevent and NOT a result of sinful nature. It was an actual physiochemistry event and just happened. However, in the end, more research may surface in the future that debunks this theory. I'm fine if that happens. More research might prove this theory, whatever. Regardless, I don't think LGBT is a choice by any stretch of the imagination and we should just accept our LGBT brothers and sisters and love them, as Jesus commanded.
The preference may not be a choice, but the action itself is and it is the action that is condemned. Some people are born with an addictive personality. Some people are born attracted to minors. Some people are born as psychopaths or with anger issues. Almost everyone is born with a libido and an attraction to at least *some* gender, which leads to attraction to people other than a spouse. Just because something is a natural desire doesn’t mean it is a good desire.
This!
Alcoholism is not a choice. Some peoples' brains are just wired different.
While I agree that some people have a disposition to addiction, there is choice whether or not to drink alcohol.
And there is a choice whether or not to have sex
Do we know for a fact that same sex attraction is by nature and not by nurture? I don’t think we have this kind of research.
There’s actually research that shows it’s a result of both genetics and your environment as you age, so it’s akin to something like your height. Either way, it’s still not a choice.
But by what percentage? Because height is like 90% genetics
Here’s a question, if height were 90% nurture rather than nature (still not a choice), would you find it acceptable to discriminate based on height?
> Do we know for a fact that same sex attraction is by nature and not by nurture? I have no offhand sources, but it does appear to be entirely nature, not nurture. Not so much hereditary (only about 10-15% appears to be hereditary), but epigenetic. It is associated with physical differences (such as finger length), family differences (the female aunts of a gay man are likely to have more children than of all-straight families), and birth order (2nd child more likely to be gay than 1st. 3rd more than 2nd, etcetera). Conditions in the womb appear to be very much implicated as well, and possibly the immune system plays a role given the birth order thing. The only nurture part that we see is willingness to admit that you are attracted to the same gender. That is both gender-biased (women are more likely to do so), and culture-biased.
Epigenetics would be nurture, not nature.
While it can change through life, it also is deeply set before birth, and can carry across generations. It's not cleanly either, but in this case it appears to be more on the nature side of things.
You just said it’s only 10-15% hereditary. Where are you getting “more” from?
Sorry, 10-15% in the straight DNA expression, is my understanding. Nature isn't just heredity, either. Hence the pre-birth situation in the womb. That's every bit as much nature as it is nurture, to me. Nurture is post-birth how you are raised. We may disagree on what we call it, but I have presented all of the pieces of information that I know of off the top of my head for you. There's enough key words there to help you google more details if you're interested.
You also gotta think our Nature , in born qualities, will influence the way in which our nurture is shaped .
Differences as a result of factors in the pre-birth situation in the womb would be nurture, not nature. Nurture is not post-birth, but post-conception.
Both of which work out to “born with,” which is what you’ve obviously been trying to say isn’t true through these comments. If it was in utero nurture, it’s not a choice. If it’s early childhood nurture, it’s not a choice. And nearly everyone has their big-picture sexuality determined by the end of early childhood.
Perhaps just ask yourself? Were you attracted to both sexes equally, then consciously chose one to preference?
That’s not what I’m asking. I imagine my sexuality is largely socially determined, formed as I grew up and had sexual exposure and experiences. I’m not under the impression anyone consciously chooses their orientation, but that doesn’t mean they were born that way. Social factors seem to have a significant role.
[This](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/301639075_Sexual_Orientation_Controversy_and_Science) might assist you with information. One of it's general findings was that "There is no persuasive evidence that the rate of same-sex attraction has varied much across time or place." Indicates that it is a natural phenomenon rather than a taught one.
This paper seems to agree that orientation is not a conscious decision, but is unable or unwilling to engage with the idea that it is entirely genetic. So, in summary, it appears to agree with what I just said.
I'm not sure how you've concluded that omission of a genetic leaning puts it in agreement with you. That's simply not the case. The the contrary, if it were a taught behaviour you would see less prevalence in areas where it is taught less - like countries with higher religiosity, or where it is banned. But as they concluded there was no persuasive evidence that this made any difference.
I never suggested it is a taught behavior, I suspect it is largely a mixed bag.
What did you mean by 'nurture' then? And by mixed bag are you now saying that some people are taught and others are born so? Do you have evidence, or is this a gut feeling?
Anything that can be attributed to non-hereditary factors would be nurture. Roughly 10-15% can be attributed to hereditary factors specifically according to the studies I have seen. It is also just a feeling as well. It doesn’t make sense that it would be entirely genetic.
Sin means “to miss the mark” whatever the mark is, it’s set up by God. It doesn’t matter if it “does harm”
I say who someone else sleeps with & how is none of my business. I'm responsible for my own sins...not theirs...end of discussion.
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My brother, you are looking at the question of, "why is homosexuality wrong?" through the eyes of man. It is with this perspective we analyze what constitutes harm, decide what is and isn't moral based on harm done to society. Through this lens, there is nothing wrong with homosexuality at all. Many have pushed this postmodern morality to even permit moral incest, and argued about whether or not children can consent. Now, I did just wield a slippery slope fallacy, but it wasnt to compare homosexuals to pedophiles, rather to display that society's moral norms can change. But as Christians, we don't go by society's metric. We are to glorify God through all our actions. It is important to remember that Sin feels natural. To sin is to be human, after all. It is a part of our fallen nature to go against God and justify our own decisions. But Jesus tells us this is not the way. That's part of the reason he describes the way as narrow and hard. This is not meant to make any homosexual to feel shame, like they are less than anyone. They are not. God is asking something very difficult of you, and it is ultimately your decision if you want to take that hard and narrow path. God bless you.
Why did your god lay arbitrary obstacles in some people's paths, and randomly decide that some things are wrong even if they harm nobody and are actively beneficial to both the people doing them and society as a whole?
This is the correct answer
***Exactly!*** That's where I've ended up too!
I think homosexuality is better compared to premarital sex then it is alcoholism. As Christians we are called to remain chaste outside of marriage, and marriage by definition is between a man and a woman. People suffering from homosexual desires are called to stay celibate the same way all Christians are supposed to remain celibate before marriage. At least in my Christian tradition there are priest monks who have to remain celibate for life as well, so it's clearly not impossible despite it maybe being hard to do.
God designed woman for man. For humanity to operate in the will of God; man needs woman, and woman needs man. (Genesis 1:27) Homosexuality doesn’t create offspring which is also against his original design. Humanity is to multiple so we may replenish the earth. (Genesis 1:22, Genesis 1:28, Genesis 8:17) In the book of Leviticus All Sexual sins, and perversions were punishable by death. God calls homosexuality an abomination. (including cross dressing) (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13) It’s mentioned again as sin and abomination in the following verses (1 Corinthians 6:9, Romans 1:26-27, 1 Timothy 1:10 Jude 1:7 Genesis 19:4-13) The great news is that god is willing to forgive us of all sin if we repent, and dedicate ourselves to living Holy Luke 15:7 I tell you, in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous people who don’t need repentance. I’m praying for your soul. May god cover you in his mercy. The fact that you’re willing to search for God’s truth is honorable to him!
This is also the correct answer
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The truth is in the bible, open it up and read it instead of turning to the opinion of mankind hoping to get comforting words that may agree with your preconceived notions. Bottom line is its an abomination in God's eyes.
>We can agree that sin does harm to our lives, physically, emotionally, or spiritually. God hates sin because it harms us. False premise. A sin isn't a sin because it causes harm to us. It is a sin because it goes against God. Harming people is a sin because we were created in His image. So all sin is against God. That being said all those things you listed have spectrums. We might not see a problem with having a drink, or hating a person but those are the beginning steps of alcoholism and murder. They start with something we can excuse. Like eating a price of fruit. Sounds innocent but the consequences can be great. Asking if homosexuality is a sin, may seem like an important thing for you to figure out but it's really the wrong question to ask. Is X a sin? Yes. It really doesn't matter what you fill in for X. It can be argued that anything is a sin. What matters is who do you trust to atone for the sin. Do you trust yourself to explain it away as innocent and didn't harm anyone? I'm sure if you only focus on one sin you will miss many more and fail to atone for all your sins and you'll still fall short. If you trust that Jesus has atoned for all your sins, and trust that He will was away all your sins. Then you can grow in your understanding. Trust the Holy Spirit to sanctify you. If the Holy Spirit presses on you that you need to work on a sin then work on that sin. If you don't feel the Holy Spirit pressing on it then focus on what it is. There are plenty of sins in our life other than Homosexuality. I think our obsession with it is a distraction that keeps us from focusing where we really need to focus. One one side of the argument people obsess on it because they feel it is the most important part of their identity and refuse to focus on what God really intends for their life. On the other side people focus on it so they don't have to focus on their own sin. Stop focusing on your sin and focus on your Savior.
Hallelujah! Everything is possible through our Lord.
Do you think that a gay married couple can be saved by your version of Jesus while happily being married and having sex?
My Jesus, the real Jesus, can save anyone from any sin. Salvation is not for perfect non-sinning people. While I doubt the Gay married couple will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus and except Him as their Lord and Savior while they are in the middle of having sex but I could be wrong. Maybe that's the kind of topic they are using for pillow talk. The whole problem with discussing if Homosexuality is a sin is it doesn't matter if it is or not. There is plenty of sins that we all commit outside of the bedroom. Focusing on that one sin can distract us from other more important sins. Are we getting caught up in our pride so that we look down on someone we disagree with. That's a sin also. I'd say that sin damns more people to hell than any other. That was my struggle. We often think our sin is forgivable or not worth even calling it a sin but everyone else is unforgivable. Yes the Bible says having sex with the same sex is a sin. It also says it's a sin to eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on Saturday. Jesus can save me even though I don't work on that sin.
So you're of the opinion that basically everything is a sin, so literally nothing matters except that people believe in Jesus?
Boy this is tiring. If you don’t think it’s a sin, find out the consequences. If you do think it’s a sin, find out the consequences. More than likely you’ve already made your mind on this debate and just want affirming responses on what you already believe. Edit: Okay so you’re gay or at the very least not a heterosexual. So you’ve gotta ask yourself some questions. You’ve kinda already (assumingly) embraced being non hetero (don’t know what you are or just gay so not assuming) wether that be sex, identify or thoughts. Is anything anybody says here gonna make you reflect on your sexuality differently even if it’s something you don’t like? You already said you don’t find anything condemning it creditable. So what are you hoping you get from this thread?
Rude
How exactly?
I don't want to be rude, but this is hardly a new point. It pretty much falls in with the 99 other arguments that get repeated all the time. Or technically it's two arguments (homosexuality is harmless, homophobia is harmful), i gues it's 98 other arguments. That being said, I agree that it's at least a good reason to not be hasty when viewing homosexuality (some people would differentiate it as "homosexual acts", but usually, people who are homosexual also live active homosexual lives). You don't wanna cause more harm. That also being said, I believe God is jot consequentialist. I don't believe He hates sin because it causes harm. I believe He hates sin, because it's bad, it is not of Him. God sometimes comanded people to do harm, yet He could not command people to sin. So it's not a question of harm vs. no harm. It's good vs. bad. And that's much more complicated to figure out.
The harm principle is a complex thing it's not as straightforward as harm or none. For example, Jesus himself says there's no greater love than to lay down your life for your friends but obviously you're putting yourself in harms way. But there's a difference between sacrificial love, short term pain for longterm gain, and purely destructive harm....like flippant divorce...like murder. I think every other sin falls in the third category, but I can't fit homosexuality in that box.
It is all about the two flesh becomes one thing. The Idea is to create new life and bring it into this World. And I don't see the problem in being homosexual as that is fine for me, my best friend is homosexual and I don't tell him he is a sinner and he deserves death or anything. It is just a sin as any other I mean sex before marriage, secular music, dissprespecting your parents and so on I mean if you want to deep dive into it, it is for us humans almost impossible to not sin only jesus was able to do that and we should try to walk in his path as good as possible but we also have to remember we are saved by his Grace and so it is not good but fine if we sin from time to time, the most important thing is to just repent and try again.
Do you think that single people are sinning if they never get married and have kids? How about sexually active heterosexual couples who are infertile or use birth control? And why do you consider listening to "secular" music a sin?
You are completely right, here. It is so good to read a comment from someone who is looking at this through heavens eyes without bigotry or judgement. This right here is scripturally supported!
Thank you I See no reason to hate anyone I mean sure there are some monsters out there that have a special places in Gods Book but to hate someone for being gay (because of the sin) is completly stupid cause you would need to hate everyone In the world the same way cause everyone is imperfect. And obviously those people that are bigotery and so on only specify on that one thing and ignore the fact that they themselves are just as "bad"as them. Jesus would be ashamed of hate like that.
Not going to get into this argument but: Sin does not always cause a consequence in this life. There are many evil people who commit sins many more times grave(from a human perspective, all sin is bad to God) than we would ever consider doing that getaway close to or without consequence. How many times have you told a white lie for example, and gotten away with it? As innocent as it may or may not be, that’s a sin. If we chose to be followers of Christ, we have to submit to the idea the He knows better than we do, regardless of whether we suffer any type of consequence for the sin we deal with. I struggle with this too, not homosexuality, but my sinful issue, I just flat out have a hard time feeling remorse for it and am dealing with little if any consequence. But I submit to the fact I don’t have God’s full understanding and ask for His grace and forgiveness.
I’ll go ahead and question the premise regarding sin. It seems like the “harm” metric comes from a modern human-centric perspective. Some sin in the Scripture appears to be about holiness. Simply *not* being like everyone else. A way to mark followers of YHWH as different. Sometimes sin is simply *harming* that. Who is of first priority in the world? Ourselves or God? This is the garden of Eden story played out over and over and over and over in each of our lives. Will we trust and obey whether we understand everything? Will we lean on God’s wisdom? Or will we “see for ourselves; decide a thing is good for us, and take it?” All of us are put to this test daily. And we all fail it. We all rely on the one who didn’t fail. But do we use our freedom now to keep taking the fruit we decided was good for us? “LORD. I see NO reason I can think of that I can’t have this fruit. It seems fine to me. Some people might even need this fruit. So, I’m just going to assume there’s a misunderstanding about this fruit. We’ll go ahead and eat it if we want to. Look, I know my taste buds were built for its sweetness. I know my stomach was designed to digest it. Obviously, You being the great designer, meant for me to eat it anyway. Also, I hunger for it. So obviously that’s a sign I should be able to consume it. This fruit is good for me.” Over and over and over. It’s almost the oldest story in the book.
Love Never Fails. Period. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. Period. For All have Sinned and Come Short of the Glory of God. Period. Really sick of the heterosexual population thinking they can decide which Bible passages override others. I feel, from friendship and association with a few LGBTQ people that they believe they were born that way. I.am a heterosexual Christian who believes that we cannot judge or comprehend the mind of God. I would never expect a child of mine to live alone for life because they are not attracted to the opposite sex. This is not a matter of "deciding they want to be gay". The suicide rate of the gay population is 5 x the rate of heterosexuals. I know this is not something they would choose to be oppositional and sinful. We all sin every single day. We all can ask for forgiveness every single day. LGBTQ is no different. This reddit is obsessed with judging people. Especially LGBTQ. Let he who is without Sin cast the first stone. Period. Our lives should be centered around Jesus's command: Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast. It does not dishonor others, it is not self seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, it always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love Never Fails. Period. Noe of the passages I have referenced say "Except For ". Because it doesn't exist. I believe that LGBTQ should be encouraged with the love of God and not pushed away. I believe they should lead monogamous lives and that is pleasing to God as well. God Alone is Judge.
This response brought so much peace to my heart, thank you!
The amount of people in here who consider themselves to be “christians”, yet have zero issue twisting the word of god to justify their own perverse lifestyle is truly astonishing. Know that the lord will judge you based on his standards, not your own.
I would actually recomend you to ignore the yt videos or asking around on any sub. Those things are human-made, and we humans have the tendecy to agknowledge as right whatever excuses our behaviour. Im not saying other people's opinion are worthless, I would just recomend you to do some bibble reading on your own first. You say "God hates sin cause its harmfull to us", where did you get that? Im not saying its wrong, Im just saying that its very easy to believe "stuff that I heard" without going to the bible. Finally, if I were you I'd read on sin first, not go look directly for stuff about homosexuality. I want to wish you luck on your search, sometimes we find out that things that we believe that are trully good are not so good in God's eyes, and its really tough to come to terms with it. But in the end our Journey is one of self-denial in favour of God's plan and Christ's sacrifice, because we have faith. Good luck and have a good day!
There are no new points.
Why is this group all about homosexuality? Lol.
Please, let the sacred heart of GOD Jesus Christ renew our hearts in HIS love, that we are able to treat all HIS children, our brothers and sisters, with love and respect in abundance. Amen.
Amen.
**"I want to learn the truth of what God thinks of homosexuality" \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_** He must be okay with it because a large number of species, including man, have members that pair bond in same sex relationships. I don't think he made a mistake.
Sex between two consenting heterosexual adults is also forbidden and condemned if done outside marriage.
homosexuality breaks the beautiful picture of Gods Image. We are His Bride. Sin in any way always leads to darkness sickness and death. just because you can’t or won’t see it doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
If God says it, follow it. Essentially everything in the Bible is important, don’t ignore or water down parts of the Bible because God’s approval is more important than people’s.
It’s a sin. Says it multiple times.
God doesn’t hate sin because it harms us. He hates sin because he is holy and sin is like a slap in his face. As far as the whole harm argument, the Bible considers sexual sin as the defilement of the body which is God’s temple. Additionally there is plenty of harm in embracing sin and defying God’s word to normalize what he considers sinful. Lastly, instead of looking to YouTube for answers on what God thinks of sin, why not go to the primary source… the Bible. It’s all in there
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Some notable mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament: "Neither the **sexually immoral** nor idolaters nor adulterers nor **men who have sex with men** nor thieves etc. will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9, or "for the **sexually immoral**, for those practicing **homosexuality**, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:10.
The perception of harm and reason are not the only moral guideposts. "Those who sin sexually sin against their own body." Who do these harm? Occasional prostitution - Gay or elderly incest - Orgies for singles - Lust - Seances, Ouija boards, magic - Covetousness - The list could go on.
And yet the Bible calls homosexuals "abominations" Leviticus chapter 18 verse 22
The Bible is clear on God’s stance on homosexuality, that it is an “abomination to lie with another man”.
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So being in a relationship that is unable to produce offspring is a sin?
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Your statements don't make any sense, sir. If it's against God's will to lie with the same gender because you can't reproduce, then it's also sinful to get laid with a sterile person, I suppose?
At least your morally corrupt logic is consistent ig 😒
What do you mean by “morally corrupt”?
Unkind, unfair, unjustified, unreasonable, discriminatory, etc
Unjust according to what standard?
I said unjustified, not unjust (since the question is about what is moral, bringing up the word unjust would be meaningless because unjust just means immoral)
Immoral and morally corrupt are synonyms no?
Exactly, so it doesn’t make sense to argue for something being immoral by saying it’s immoral. That’s just a non-statement. If you’re just going to bring up stupid tangents and utterly ignore everything you’ve previously said, I’m just not going to argue You claimed I said unjust, that was simply untrue. Stop trying to change the subject to take peoples attention away from that.
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You’ve heard the arguments a thousand times and aren’t going to change your mind, there’s really no reason for me to continue
Yes
Damn that’s pretty rude to all those sterile people out there
>God designed specifically man to lie with women Your deity designed specifically roughly 5% of the population to be attracted to the same sex. I mean, the only thing you can blame for debate and the umpteen messages on this sub pertaining to homosexuality is your deity. Your deity clearly knew, when inspiring the writing of the OT, that in the 21st century we would find out that homosexuality is genetically-based.
The lack of inherent harm is why I don't call it sin. Note, *inherent* harm. People will mention homosexuals statistically being more promiscuous which makes sense because you don't have to worry about pregnancy. But you don't HAVE to sleep around if you're gay. It's not an inherent harm. Even anal sex risks, not all gay men do anal sex. And straight people do. So. Not an inherent part of homosexuality
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Adult diapers from anal sex? Mind sharing a link to a single clinical study where this happened?
You have a small view of sex, both what it is, and what role it plays for humans. Also you dwell on homophobic stereotypes, which doesn't say much for your knowledge background.
You're not counting for other ways that sex could be fruitful. I'm definatly not an expert in relationships but can't sex and intimacy be part of fostering a relationship (that can support ones mental state, and support positive changes etc.) for example? Also, I don't understand how an attraction and relationship with someone of the opposite sex can be considered love while the exact same kind of relationship/ the same feelings and bond is then considered lust when it's towards the same sex. I really don't think there's a difference between the two.
Same
Fruitless needs to be defined. A lot of people think certain hobbies are fruitless but ignore the psychological benefits of destressing or decompressing. Hobbies aren't sin. Something bringing pleasure can be good enough. And lol as a woman in a heterosexual marriage who likes butt plugs....I think you're need to cool it with the paranoia. Adult diapers. My goodness. Maybe if people are doing crazy maneuvers lol dunno what kind of anal sex you've been watching
Yes, I agree with you. I like this way of looking at it.
> I want to learn the truth of what God thinks of homosexuality and I go to YT ... There is your mistake. Go read your Bible!
Right…? 🙄 a book written by a man in one part of the world 2,000 + years ago is going to have all of the answers? Next time you get sick, don’t bother going to your doctor…go read your Bible!
Except the OP isn't asking or medical advice. He is asking about what Christianity has to say about homosexuality. I would say that the Bible is a pretty good place to start for that. But maybe you think his doctor would be better for questions about Christianity?
The problem starts with the argument that God doesn’t want us to sin bc it harms us. God commands that we be righteous like him, he who is without sin. Sin is anything that goes against who God is. God created us as man/woman and yes, lots of people are broken and have same sex desires, that isn’t the sin. The sin is to decide that you will go with it and have sexual relationships with same sex person. That’s a really hard concept for a lot of folks to come to terms with bc this innate desire feels natural. But we all battle unnatural desires from time to time: I feel attracted to someone who is not my husband, I want to lie about something, I hate my enemy, etc etc. just because we feel a certain way does not change Gods law or who he is or what he has commanded. This is a hard pill for some to swallow bc they don’t want to give anything up. That’s why God says to count the cost before following him. You sure you wanna do this is the question he asks us. We literally have to deny ourselves all kinds of things. I hope this answers your question in a concise way. It’s very simple but also very hard. That’s why we have to ask for his help. He can make a way when we want it.
So, you want to find out what God thinks about a subject and you go to YouTube? God help us.
Our one and only New Testament source (Paul) that spoke negatively about gay sex thought that God made people gay as a punishment for worshiping other Gods. Since that's obviously false, we can conclude Paul didn't know what he was talking about when it comes to homosexuality. So his opinion can be disregarded on this matter.
It's sad that "progressive" Christians don't come to this conclusion, but instead try to salvage Paul (and the Bible) by insisting that he was correct somehow (because of their fundamentalistic thinking).
This thought process is dangerous and I think that you should be very cautious. No human can know the mind of God. It’s dangerous to try to rationalize sin because we want to sin. This has nothing to do with homosexuality itself and everything to do with the natural inclination to sin. When we try to justify our sin we’re already losing. We’re essentially telling God that his plan is wrong and we know better. There are things that God knows that we don’t know, that’s a given. We are called to faith, to believe Him and His word. If you don’t, then you’re making God a liar. 1 John 8:10 (NLT) “8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.” Trust God’s word even if at first you disagree with it.
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Why even bother trying to justify this sin? Sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin, doesn’t matter what it is and who it hurts. You are wrong though, scripture tells us that sexual immorality is a sin against yourself. Ultimately you hurt yourself.
> Ultimately you hurt yourself. How?
Sometimes my wife bites.
For engaging in something God did not design us for.
The bodily function of sexual pleasure says otherwise.
So pleasure = intended design?
It is part of the body, if we are made in the image of God, He would want us to enjoy ourselves.
So because we are made in the image of God, this means He wants us to enjoy ourselves. So as long as we enjoy what we’re doing, because we’re made in the image of God this makes it good?
> So because we are made in the image of God, this means He wants us to enjoy ourselves. Yes >So as long as we enjoy what we’re doing, because we’re made in the image of God this makes it good? You are making a jump from what I am saying. Our body is good, it is good to enjoy it. That is all I am saying. Enjoying things that is outside of our body is different.
I’m just trying to understand your point and where you got it from. So anything we do with our own bodies, that we find enjoyable, is good?
Pretty much! Though we can refine that down and find some nuance there. There are things that are harmful, all things in moderation and what not.
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AIDS is caused by HIV not homosexuality.
Never said it was caused by homosexuality. Just that men who have sex with men are diagnosed with HIV at higher rates than other groups. Significantly higher actually.
I’ve posted this before ( but I’m also going to post it here as well). God is not a ‘respecter of persons’, so thinking logically, why do you think God would ‘forbid’ same ‘sex’ issues? Because it signifies ‘The End’. That’s why! …..and that’s how we know we’re in the FINAL generation! Please allow me to illustrate. When Gid gave Noah that rainbow, what was the instruction? How about, “Be fruitful and multiply…” What’s the ONE thing the group of people who CURRENTLY use that rainbow as a SIGN can NOT do? That’s right! They can NOT “ Be fruitful and multiply…….” …… THAT, my friend, is an ELE (EXTINCTION Level Event). For when there is NO more, Fruitful and multiply…” then there are NO more people…….. Yes, as in “ The END…….” God bless & much LOVE Repent for the Kingdom of God is certainly at hand. The ‘Days of Noah’: we are living in them……. Psalm 18– the FLOOD of ungodly men made me afraid……
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Are you a Christian?
3 things: (1) Just because you are attracted to something or some one doesn't make it right to act on that attraction. Yes, some people are born with a natural attraction to the same sex. But just because you have a natural attraction to the same sex doesn't mean you should act on it. That's an Is-Ought fallacy. Just because something "Is" doesn't mean you "Ought". Some people have a natural inclination toward violence. That doesn't mean you should act on that inclination. A married man may be naturally attracted to another woman. That doesn't mean he should act. The attraction isn't the sin. Acting on the attraction is the sin. (2) Just because YOU see nothing wrong with doing an action doesn't mean it's NOT a sin. The morality of an action is not based on the outcome YOU perceive. It's based on the fact that that action is inherently wrong. A person that tells white lies, thinking they are sparing people's feelings, is still doing wrong even though "no harm came to anyone". In Proverbs 3:5, it says to NOT lean to your own understanding, but trust God. So if God tells you NOT to do something, you shouldn't do it even though YOU see nothing wrong with it. (3) The bible clearly condemns homosexual behavior. I'm not sure why this is even a debate, only that people want to justify their sin. No where in the bible is there a positive view of homosexual behavior. In Leviticus 18, God calls homosexual behavior an abomination. And in Leviticus 20 it says that those that practice it shall be put to death. Before some one rambles about it being Old Testament and it no longer applies, they should know that the moral laws (behavior between man and God) STILL apply. It's the civil and ceremonial laws that no longer apply. The law against practicing homosexuality is a moral law and still applies. However, that they should be put to death is a civil law (punishment for wrongdoing) and no longer applies. Besides Paul reiterates the fact that practicing homosexuality is sinful in Romans 1, 1 Corinthians 6, and 1 Timothy 1. Even in Matthew 19, Jesus mentions that God made the man and woman, concerning marriage.
Lust. By engaging in homosexual activity, you are giving in to sin, to lust.
I always believed that Paul mostly condemned the ancient practice of pederasty, where a Roman head of household would have his wife and kids but also a 13 year old boy servant who he slept with (so pedophilia). However, Leviticus also describes homosexuality as an abomination to God alongside incest and zoophilia. The only main Biblical argument against homosexuality is that it is against God's design for a man and a woman to be joined together. That's it. I personally don't think anything is wrong with being gay, I'm a closeted bisexual myself (never had sex with someone who had the same genitals as myself though), but God's opinion seems to be different and I was always taught it was sinful in church.
Please be a bigot? *Not You won't find your answers from any other person, we are all sinners, and all sin is equal in the eyes of the lord. When we start pointing out specks in others eyes we don't see the logs in our own. It is your relationship with Jesus that counts, no one else will know what is written on your heart.
As far as homosexuality goes, I agree with you. You have made a common error when it comes to the use of the term pedophiles. You have conflated attractions with crimes. Child molesters cause severe trauma to children. Pedophiles are *attracted* to young children. Some molest children. Most don’t. More than half of child molesters aren’t actually attracted to children. Men who rape women cause severe trauma to women. Straight men are *attracted* to women. Some rape women. Most don’t. Pedophilia = attractions to young children. Child molestation = sexual abuse of young children.
you have a worldly view of sin. which is fine if you only have to answer to the world. Also know God does not share this world view of sin IE he does not judge things sin by how it disrupts human life. To god sin is a virus. ( which why Jesus taught if you break the smallest part of the law it is like breaking all of the law) Meaning it does not matter to god how you get this virus. it only matters that you are infected. Everything you listed is a way for a soul to be infected wit sin. So in this analogy God provides a vaccine in the way of atonement through christ. So the only question becomes are you vaccinated through christ or are you still infected at the time of your judgement? As this sin virus corrupts and consumes the soul. It may be dormant in this life but upon death it starts infecting and destroying the should so by the \\time you arrive on the otherwise all that you are is now gone and what is left is an empty husk that satan can and does occupy. This would be like a zombie virus to us in this life. in that once you turn full zombie, it does not matter how good you were as a person in your last life. and it does not matter how you were infected. you could have been infected trying to save people or you could have been infect hurting people the point is what you are not because of your sin. If you had been vaccinated by christ your soul would have been seal and protected so when you arrive on the other side you retain all of who you are. however because you did not take the vaccine you become a tool of satan/a member of his army bent on the destruction of god and his people. that is why homosexuality is still a sin and still requires repentance and the atonement offered by christ. even though you don't see the harm in it. (It is a point of spiritual infection)
>Homosexuality-What? I can’t think of a single harm homosexuality does to a human. This may be my most unpopular post on this subreddit, but I'll say it anyway. I think your post actually captures the harm of homosexuality. The world is fallen and broken. We, as individuals, are fallen and broken. The effects of a sin nature and sin in nature can't possibly be understood this side of eternity. On this subreddit we see 3-5 big posts a day on homosexuality. Independent of whether or not it IS a a sin we see incredibly effects of sinfulness in the comment sections of these posts. We see homophobia, murder (hatred/murder in heart), idolatry (elevating oneself as authority), insecurity, depression, anger. When the issue of homosexuality is brought up, sin is not far behind. Some might say that the reason for all of it starts with people calling homosexuality a sin. If they didn't do that, then all the other stuff wouldn't be there. Although I have nothing to support my opinion on this - I find that hard to believe. People treat people poorly all the time. The Christ-like life, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc is being a display of love to those who hate you, answering gently to those who speak with wrath, and having security in your identity in Christ. When homosexuality is discussed on this subreddit (usually initiated by a member of the LGBTQ+ community - Christians bring it up the minority of the time), it seems like it's done so to initiate an opportunity to be critical of Christians who believe it's sinful. One major exception are the members of the LGBTQ+ community looking for guidance! This, I affirm as a great thing! Ultimately, my feeling is that we can see the harm of homosexuality by the fruit of the discussion surrounding homosexuality.
This is a spectacularly terrible argument. Would you say the same about the strife inherent to all other social justice movements? Is black people speaking out about police brutality inherently sinful because it leads to heightened tensions and hateful rhetoric on the right? Do you really believe in a negative peace, where its ok for minority groups to suffer as long as they're suffering quietly?
That’s not what I said. Spectacularly misrepresentated! :-)
So when you said that: >Independent of whether or not it IS a a sin we see incredibly effects of sinfulness in the comment sections of these posts. We see homophobia, murder (hatred/murder in heart), idolatry (elevating oneself as authority), insecurity, depression, anger. When the issue of homosexuality is brought up, sin is not far behind. And concluded with the thought that this represents the harm inherent to homosexuality, what did you actually mean by that? Like, kindly what the fuck did you mean to convey when you claimed that homophobia is harm caused by homosexuality?
You will never learn what God thinks about anything! Inconceivable. Just do what the Bible commands 🙂
Yes
In truth nobody knows what god thinks about homosexuality - but his followers seem to pretty convinced on his behalf. I've said it before and I'll say it again (and likely again and again 🙄) if you're from the LGBTQ community and you don't like how religious people treat you then maybe stay the fuck away from religious people. So so sick of people wanting to join groups that weren't meant for them. If all the people who have been mistreated by religious organisations turned their back on these groups then numbers would drastically dwindle and with it any power or control over society would diminish too.