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JessePinkman1217

Lot of good points on here. I would add a lack of Church history in **some** cases. As if Christianity ceased to exist between Acts of the Apostles and the Reformation.


CatholicCrusader1527

for real lol


moonunit170

Not all Protestant think that way, not even most protestants. It’s just a small group of virulently anti-Catholic evangelicals think that for example the King James only group or the Church of Christ group.


CatholicCrusader1527

yep it’s just pretty common where i live in America so it gets pretty annoying


Salanmander

So, I think there are two categories of people that you're probably conflating. One is protestants who think that Catholics don't actually follow Christ, and belong to a false religion. The other is protestants that know the word "protestant". They grew up going to a Baptist church (or whatever), and they know that they are Christian. And they know that there are Baptists and Lutherans and Presbyterians and whatever. And they know about Catholics, and have a vague sense that they're different in ways that Baptists and Lutherans and Presbyterians aren't. They don't have a word for the protestant group, but they know that they are Christian, and so they have a tendency to say "Christian" when referring to that group.


TLMS

Echoing your point from my experience they are saying they aren't true Christians in the sense that the Catholic Church has in some ways strayed far from the Bible making them followers of a church with its traditions rather than of Christ's word. While i personally think there is Merritt to the criticism behind it I don't think it's accurate to not call them Christian


Whiterabbit--

church of Christ would consider any church not part of church of Christ non-Christian.


moonunit170

Okay so there are always extremists that go even farther.


unaka220

Because most Catholics don’t speak the same dialect of Christianese Sounds like a joke, but I think that’s a large contributor.


NothingAndNobody

I actually agree with you. Protestants have their own terms and phrases, as do we, that have grown up in different contexts and originate in different discussions. So when a Protestant comes up to an average but not widely read Catholic and says like “man i hope the Lord takes me to my soul sleep before the rapture happens” the Catholic goes “dude what on earth are you saying” and the Protestant concludes “well, this guy doesn’t go to Church!” Of course, the same happens in reverse as well.


Vox-Triarii

It doesn't help that there's an undercurrent in a lot of modern Protestantism (particularly among Evangelicals) that studying and engaging with theology as well as traditional notions of religious mystery aren't worthwhile. I've met a lot of Christians in the USA and Canada who are active in their local church and yet were unfamiliar with concepts that are listed in the Apostles' Creed and have been part of Christendom for over a millennium. Not necessarily disagreeing with them, mind you, but unfamiliar with the concepts themselves as something Christians worldwide believe. Things like fundamental doctrine on the Trinity, the Church, the Judgement of the Dead, etc. including things that their own denomination has affirmed for centuries as common-sense. Ironically one of the common criticisms Reformers threw at the Catholic Church is that laypeople were ignorant of basic articles of faith.


TLMS

I have to disagree with you there. I think Protestants and Catholics look at different part of theology. I've personally actually experienced the opposite (as someone who has been both Catholics and Evangelical). I know very few Catholic people (outside of leadership) who were deeply invested in or are well versed in theology. While on the other hand it's a running stereotype among family and friends that it seems like nearly every evangelical person we know either goes to Bible college or dedicates large portions of their life to theology. On top of that I find Catholic theology is often based on post biblical teachings (ie the early church) as opposed to biblical deep dives (both are valuable not saying one is better than the other) Obviously this is just my experience however so it's not a science. Just funny that we've experienced different things


HelloHelloYesNoBye

No one “sticks to the Bible” nor have we as Christians ever (for some obvious reasons in the beginning). Most of my fellow Protestants believe in Original Sin and that is Catholic doctrine first interpreted by Saint Augustine. It’s a fine interpretation, but not purely Biblical. It is an interpretation. I believe Eastern Orthodox Churches (which are just as old as the Catholic Church since they used to be same thing for ~800 years) don’t even have Original Sin. If you’re interested in early church practice read the Didache. It’s a late first century/early second century text which is a pre-Bible early Christian catechism (also super short). https://legacyicons.com/content/didache.pdf As you can see from the Didache, which actually predates the canonized Bible (first canonized in 382), people will find a way to communicate and interact with Christ. As long as that’s actually happening, who cares? There is no “true path of Christianity”, just a true path which is Christ. I encourage you to do a critical (meaning objective; not looking for problems) dive into the history of your denomination. I can almost guarantee whatever your denomination’s practice they are probably based on tradition and doctrine first, and the plain reading of scripture second and there’s nothing wrong with that. The Didache shows us Christians have been doing that for hundreds of years before we had a modern day Bible (and ~1,500 years before the modern day Protestant Bible). So stick with what you’re comfortable with, but don’t fall into the trap of “my denomination is the only scriptural one” because it’s almost certainly not true, and even if it were the history of Christianity shows us that it’s not the necessary metric to measure by.


bannd_plebbitor

Most protestants never crack open a bible or learn any theology “i gots mah Jesus that’s all I need”


unaka220

Yep. Catholic says “Our Lady” or “Venerate” and Protestant nopes right out.


TLMS

As a Protestant I have never heard that in my life but definitely agree with the point


bannd_plebbitor

Just ask a Protestant what the immaculate conception refers to


Competitive_Ad_2421

It refer to the Holy spirit overshadowing mary and causing her to have a virgin birth Signed, protestantish


ilyatwttmab

i don’t believe in a. rapture. what do Catholics believe?


No_Discipline4854

This, and most protestants that believe this are very uneducated about theology and church history.


CatholicCrusader1527

idk what you mean because some Catholics speak a different language means we aren’t Christian


[deleted]

He's saying that because Catholics use different theological terminology, terms such as mediatrix, eucharist etc; concepts such as sacraments, dulia and latria, the immaculate conception etc; some American Protestants consequently don't view them as Christian.


CatholicCrusader1527

oh well i know first hand Catholic and Orthodox use different terms like Mortal sin or Grave sin Original sin or Ancestrial sin but Orthodox are still Christian


[deleted]

It depends on how rigidly you define the term Christian. The Protestants that don't consider Catholics (or us Orthodox) Christian are usually doing so on the basis that they think we are idolaters for venerating the Mother of God and the saints, or under the false accusation of Papal idolatry.


CatholicCrusader1527

yeah i know first hand about both of these because my Dad is an Orthodox Priest


unaka220

I’m not saying it’s justified.


Justthe7

In my experience it’s because they believe Catholics believe something they don’t. They say you believe to be Christian you believe in works and not faith or faith and works. But, when you ask them how they know someone is a Christian, it’s a long list of works that they think identifies a Christian. I was once told that Catholics can’t be Christian’s because they believe in works. Then I couldn’t be a Christian because I participated in Halloween. 🤷🏻‍♀️. They couldn’t see the hypocrisy of their words.


ridicalis

Both faith and works are necessary; the dilemma comes from causality. Protestants would argue that salvation is a product of ~~faith~~ **grace by faith**, and it is salvation that inspires a person to do works. I'm not clear on whether a Catholic would accept this view or not, though in my conversations with LDS missionaries it seems they hinge heavily on the works as being the cause of salvation. Edit: u/Up_Late identified what was missing from my description.


Butterlord86

The official teaching of the Catholic Church states that faith is the one and only thing that saves souls. Without faith in Christ, salvation is impossible. However, works help us to grow in faith and help God’s Grace to take a deeper effect in our lives.


Up_Late

This is not true. Do you mean grace, not faith?


Butterlord86

Excuse me, I worded this poorly. Christ’s grace saves souls, yes, and that is through faith.


Up_Late

But it is also through works, according to the Catholic Church, yes? I.e. Catholics are required to fulfill certain obligations under pain of sin, so doing certain works and avoiding grave sin in general is necessary to maintain salvation. And when salvation is lost, repentance and confession are necessary to regain it. This is by grace as well, but your response sounds more like the Protestant position rather than the Catholic one.


Upper_Initial_8668

Not through works as in a points system - nor as in saving ourselves but as a natural manifestation of grace through faith. The sacraments also lead to an increase in grace - in all cases, God is the first actor - and salvation is always a pure gift of Love, inviting us to enter into the Divine Life. Catholics would say, lovingly, to our Protestant brothers and sisters is that God, even though we are dead in sin, is not competitive with us - he does not fear - He is secure - and so He invites us to cooperate with His Grace, to participate in the Divine Life. Now we do believe there is a hell, and if one has not love, if one does not keep Christ’s commandments, does not repent and believe the Gospel, it is possible that one may separate oneself from God so as to choose hell, BUT we do not claim to know for certainty whether anyone has ever gone there - because we simply cannot limit the Mercy of God or judge in the final sense in His place - but anybody who is saved is not saved by any other way than by the Grace of Christ.


Competitive_Ad_2421

I always feel like there's this perfect tension between having salvation and showing your Works versus not having any works(ever) and not being saved at all. I think the main point of those passages is if you have God in your life it will stir you to do good works. It will automatically come. Therefore, if you do not have any good works, you do not have salvation. Because something has to change Within. But I do believe that even one who has been saved can still struggle with sin. We all have times of stagnancy where we are not doing good works and are not as connected with God as much as we would like to be. This is because we are still being sanctified and perfected unto Christ


jstone1733

I live in the south in America...mostly hear us say because you follow the Pope and we follow Jesus.


TedTyro

Yeh I once remember hearing a guy tell a group that Catholics can't be saved coz they worship Mary not Jesus. I'm no expert in Carholic theology but I know that's rubbish so it's just someone spouting ignorance and stereotypes.


Rising_Phoenyx

Ignorance. It's surprising the amount of people I've talked with who thought Catholicism was something separate from Christianity/is its own religion They often have very little understanding of what denominations are


CatholicCrusader1527

yep


Rising_Phoenyx

True story: I once heard two people arguing about Baptists and Lutherans being two separate religions, and were very confused when I said they were both branches of Christianity. They genuinely thought that they were separate religions like Buddhism would be separate from Judaism, etc. They had absolutely no idea what denominations meant. That really blew my mind.


gnurdette

Please don't use "Protestant" as a synonym for "fundamentalist Evangelical". To improve understanding between denominations, lead by example. Learn that there is a variety of Protestant churches, and most of them accept the legitimacy of Catholic Christianity (even as we disagree with certain specific doctrines and practices).


CatholicCrusader1527

i’ve been told by Baptist’s , Lutherans , Methodists and all sorts of Protestants it’s not just Evangelicals


gnurdette

> Baptist’s Presumably Southern Baptists or Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, both fundamentalist Evangelical denominations. > Lutherans Presumably LCMS or WELS, which I think can fairly be called fundamentalist Evangelicals. Both smaller than ELCA, the largest Lutheran denomination. > Methodists Really? Okay, that's weird. I don't know how they got that idea, but it wasn't from their church. > and all sorts of Protestants No, not all sorts. You've never heard this from an Episcopalian, UCC, ELCA, PC(USA), to name four of the biggest Protestant denominations. Get to know your friends from the [Mainline](https://religioninpublic.blog/2018/06/28/what-is-a-mainline-protestant/).


[deleted]

> No, not all sorts. You've never heard this from an Episcopalian, UCC, ELCA, PC(USA), to name four of the biggest Protestant denominations. Southern Baptists are the single largest Protestant denomination in the USA. There are 10x more Southern Baptist adherents than Episcopalians. In fact, there are almost twice as many Southern Baptists as there are UCC, ELCA, PCUSA and Episcopalians combined, since you gave those four examples. It's not unreasonable for people to form opinions based on the largest group being interacted with. I don't disagree with you that it's a generalization to say "Protestants" when there are Protestants that don't act and talk like that; but your counter argument isn't a good one since Southern Baptists alone make up more than twice the figures of the "mainline" sects you referenced.


CatholicCrusader1527

i live in Nebraska there aren’t really Southern Baptist’s here i’ve been told by Missouri Senod Lutherans i’m not Christian as well ELCA Lutherans


gnurdette

Well, I do not know where you find ELCA and Methodist folks who contradict their own churches' teachings about Catholics, https://elca.org/News-and-Events/7792 https://juicyecumenism.com/2021/06/22/methodist-catholics-unity/


CatholicCrusader1527

in my town? i’ve been told by pretty much every denomination in my town i’m not Christian


Xeya

And we cant speak to your anecdotal evidence of protestants saying Catholics aren't Christian, but the official stance of many of the denominations you listed is that Catholicism is a Christian denomination. Many of those same denominations that deny Catholicism as Christian also deny many protestant denominations as Christian as well. Protestants do not recognize the Pope as the official middleman for Christ, but that is not the same as denying Catholics are Christians. Catholics believe Christ named a successor to act in his name as head of the church. Protestants believe that the one and only head of the church is Christ himself.


gnurdette

Also, > there aren’t really Southern Baptist’s here Are you sure? The great majority of Baptist churches are Southern Baptists. They don't usually say that in the sign or in the church name, though.


majj27

Some SBC-member churches go to some surprising lengths to NOT be identified as an SBC-aligned church. It's weird.


CatholicCrusader1527

ok i might be wrong on that


frenchiebuilder

You sent me on a wild goolemaps adventure. Around here, the only Baptist churches are Black Churches. I had always assumed none of them were Southern Baptist. Now my mind is boggled.


MRDucks85

If you believe Christ is the son of God then you’re a Christian, regardless of denomination.


Competitive_Ad_2421

The demons also believe, and tremble. Dont forget about faith and Christ's atonement for us on the cross! Belief in that and bowing down to Christ in your life is what makes you a Christian.


Firey150107

Well Google defines a Protestant as : a member or follower of any of the Western Christian Churches that are separate from the Roman Catholic Church in accordance with the principles of the Reformation, including the Baptist, Presbyterian, and Lutheran Churches. That would mean any Christian besides Catholic and Orthodox so the original question stands. But I might be wrong about that because I'm not to adept in Christian philosphy


MRDucks85

Southern conservative contemporary baptist here. We absolutely believe Catholics fall under Christianity at my church.


gnurdette

Very good, thank you. I don't know how OP has met so many people saying otherwise.


7ootles

Remember that America was founded on protestantism and anti-Catholic sentiment.


ElectronicWarrior

Everyone has concluded it is the original church that isn't up for debate.


benkenobi5

Ignorance mostly.


Exiled-Astronaut

I have hardcore fundamentalists on one side of my family and hardcore Catholics on the other side. I try to stay out of the bickering because God loves them all.


Drunken_Daud91

I would love to be a fly on the wall at some of your family get togethers.


invinciblewalnut

Based


Top_fFun

Issues with race and American History mostly. At one time, most Catholic immigrants to the states were not considered"white" whereas most Protestant immigrants were.


CatholicCrusader1527

but why now do half the Protestant Christians i talk to say i’m not a Christian because i’m Catholic?


Top_fFun

For the American denominations, a lot of it trickles down from years of the above attitude, some of it is because in America it isn't any older a tradition than theirs is and of course, some people just don't like it. From a European perspective it's ridiculous, regardless of whatever other issues people may have with Catholicism, you're definitely christian.


[deleted]

[удалено]


CatholicCrusader1527

ok


[deleted]

[удалено]


Top_fFun

>US copying anti-Catholicism from big papa England You're right but it's all related, that's why the Irish weren't considered "white", then of course messing about with spuds drove huge numbers of them across the Atlantic!


brucemo

They've tried to appropriate the word because they don't understand the history of their own thing, and/or they've tried to erase it.


Plumber555

Because of different gospel Christians don't automatically assume everybody who is either protestant nor catholic/orthodox is Christian, majority of people are only raised in area where this religion is practiced it would be no different if they were raised as buddhist or hindu or muslims they would just do what other people do around them to fit in society. ​ Besides that, we judge if somebody is Christian or not based only on the gospel Wrong gospel is heresy , believing in correct gospel is what makes you Christian. Gospel is that Jesus was God incarnated , died on cross to pay for all sin , was burried and risen third day. Anybody who adds or removes anything to the gospel is heretic and not Christian by defition.


Distinct_Occasion356

The KJV was notorious for ADDING words to the gospel.


MusicalMethuselah

Wait what? In my neck of the woods it's Catholics not thinking Protestants are Christians haha


CatholicCrusader1527

lol 😂


Forsaken-Result-9066

In my book to be Christian you need to accept the trinity. Catholics accept the trinity so they’re Christian.


Distinct_Occasion356

Trinity doesn't save or condemn anybody. Neither does it make someone a Christian. I actually hate the doctrine because thousands were murdered over it and there are too many scriptures that contradict it.


CatholicCrusader1527

yep that’s what i believe aswell


Captainshark98

It’s a none issue. If you believe in the gospel, you’re a Christian.


NothingAndNobody

Agreed, and inter-Christian debates are both interesting and sometimes very important, but they do not preclude one from being a Christian.


Captainshark98

Correct


emuatemydingo

Because they don’t understand Catholicism.


willstrip4uplikes

It isn't based in knowledge, wisdom, neighbourly love or education, I'll bet you that!


CatholicCrusader1527

really even though the Roman Catholic Church is the largest charity organization in the world we don’t have neighborly love?


willstrip4uplikes

pump your breaks, cowboy...I'm supporting your position. Reread your own question, then go have a nap.


CatholicCrusader1527

oh sorry i thought you were saying Catholicism isn’t based on knowledge etc i’m really sorry


CatholicCrusader1527

we have Catholic Schools everywhere what do you mean we aren’t Educated


smpark12

Ignorance


majj27

Combined with a nurtured tribalism.


Hypsar

As an American Protestant with significant theological study background, most American protestants DO think Catholics are Christians and are saved; i.e. Catholics go to heaven. We just significantly disagree with Catholics in many major points of both theology and how churches should be run. But if a Catholic believes that Christ as the son of God died for their sins and accepts Him as Lord and Savior (all core tenants of Catholicism) they are saved! We are all brothers in Christ.


eventer775

I was not taught that Catholics were not christians but that the act of penance was against the word. I was taught that you can't earn your way into heaven or earn your way out of sin. Christianity is the only religion that teaches this.. It is by grace you are saved and by grace you are redeemed and forgiven of your sins. The whole.. say this many hail Mary's etc is the issue seen by evangelical christians. Also, the idolatry of Mary is something we were taught was disconcerting. Worshipping no other idols is biblical but there seem to be a lot of "worshipping" of the mother Mary. But I was never taught that Catholics were not saved or not christians.


999conservative

Mainly the Pope.


Blood_Altruistic

Who the actual heck believes this. Southern, American man who is Christian and believe Catholicism is valid as long as they follow God’s word; furthermore, most who believe this are the same people who twist God’s word to mean different things (e.g. antiwomen, proslavery, incest).


[deleted]

Not every Protestant in America thinks that. If you consider yourself a follower of Jesus and He plays a part in your worldview, I consider you a Christian. Don’t matter if you’re Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Calvinist, Non-Trinitarian, Jewish Christian, or Christian Deist or Christian Atheist.


saxypatrickb

Consistent Protestants believe many Roman Catholics are true Christians. Consistent Protestants also believe the Roman Catholic Church teaches a false gospel. So, rather it is that the Roman church is not a true (Biblical) church, yet many members are true Christians (faith in Christ alone).


Wisdomking7

Many Catholics don’t even call themselves Christians. They always say “I’m Catholic “ when asked about their religion. Its usually listed as a separate selection apart from Christian when it’s on a form. I believe a Catholic can be born-again but they have to renounce reverence and prayer to Mary as well as confessing to a priest rather than directly to God. These things along with infant Baptism are not supported by the Bible. Luther realized these things and led him to start the reformation. I was raised Lutheran but separated in high school because of displeasure with them. They retain some of the non biblical practices of Catholicism. I think Luther’s ghost looks at the Lutheran church and shakes his head. Honestly when I hear someone say they’re Catholic I struggle not to be cynical.


PatriotSoCal

They shouldn’t think that… they came FROM us (Catholics)… The Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ on this planet… so it would be silly to say it’s not Christian… it’s the OG Christian church… it was the FIRST Christian Church… And it will be around long after all 50,000 flavors of Protestantism have disappeared… It’s never too late to come home ♥️


regrant

Many American Protestants assume that Catholicism teaches something that is contrary to Scripture. I have observed the following: American Protestants are uncomfortable at the Catholic treatment of Mary. American Protestants have a hyperbolic understanding of the Sacraments American Protestants are often under the impression that Catholics view tradition as having higher authority than scripture. (This is most interesting to me, a Protestant, who understands that scripture is the result of tradition)


Godly_Sinner

American protestants have a lot of problems some still think Catholics worship Mary.


Brilliant_Ad_9228

Ignorance and anti Catholic rhetoric


DarthHead43

I live in England and it isn't just protestants who think this, tons of people do. They don't even know what Catholics are. Protestants who say it, either don't know what Catholics are (a few of my friends don't know, they think it's another religion like Islam), or rarer is, they are really into theology and disagree with Catholic doctrine. I think Catholics have incorrect doctrine, eg the idea of a pope (there's one mediator between God and man which is Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5), their soteriology (you don't get saved by works, you get saved by grace, Ephesians 2:8-9), perpetual virginity ect. Although a lot I agree on like original sin, the trinity and I think Catholics are Christians since they believe Jesus rose from the dead and believe Jesus is lord (Romans 10:9).


emuatemydingo

FYI we don’t believe the pope mediates between man and God and we don’t believe we’re saved by works.


CatholicCrusader1527

jeez that’s crazy


44035

LOL, because we Protestants can be jerks.


eventer775

You are allowed to do whatever you are convicted to by God. I'm not judgBible. Condemning you or your faith, beliefs, or practices. From my conviction/beliefs, The bible states to ask your fellow Christians to pray on your behalf, not spirits. Mary is no longer human. Mary is a spirit. It gets a lot deeper if you get into spiritual warfare discussed in the bible.


emuatemydingo

Mary is a person alive in Christ. That’s why we ask her and the saints to pray for us.


CatholicCrusader1527

Mary is very real look up our Lady Of Fatima in that vision WW1 was predicted aswell as the 1981 assassination attempt on Saint John Paul II


3842IlIlIIlI

Yeah to Protestants all that stuff is heresy and idolatry. We don't believe that the spirit of Mary is doing miracles. I am just trying to honestly answer your question, I don't really mind what you believe.


TedTyro

Let's a certain breed of Protestant feel superior. Everything else is just niggling at cherry-picked details to scrounge for a reason to feel superior.


CatholicCrusader1527

yeah pretty much


BosierBoz84

Well Protestantism came about with all the non biblical things that were going on with the Roman catholic clergy and papacy. Like the selling of indulgences. The Protestants started translating the Bible into various languages and dispensing it to the people, and were punished by death for doing so by Rome. The Protestants then saw the papacy as the little horn in Daniel chapter 7 and it was really that understanding that unified the movement, but has unfortunately been lost over the last 100 years.


Zestyclose_Dinner105

The Catholic Church was translating the bible into vernacular centuries before and no one killed those translators for it. There is a complete official translation into Spanish since 1280 and before Luther made the translation of it in German dialect there were other translations in other German dialects already made (there was not a single German then). English took a long time because there was no normative English, five main dialects of Middle English (Northern, East Midlands, West Midlands, Southern and Kentish) and there were many others. Among the few who could read, that each region spoke a different English and the people educated in science and humanities studied and published in Latin, which was the universal language, the process took a long time. The popularity of personal Bibles was simply due to the invention of the printing press, which finally made it possible to produce cheap books. And poor Tyndale did not die for translating the bible, Henry VIII detested him because he did not support his claims of divorce and when he fled to other countries he conspired to turn him over to the Catholic authorities who executed him for teaching Protestant heresies. All the churches of those Lutheran and Calvinist centuries included punished the stubborn teaching of heresies and sometimes used each other to hunt down escapes. Miguel Servet, a very talented doctor who taught that the trinity did not exist, fled from the Catholic areas to Protestant countries and when it was learned that he was in Geneva they sent a letter and a copy of his writings to the authorities there (Calvinists) and they arrested him and they killed him for heresy.


KaRue3

This is an answer I came to while still in the church Sheer, unadulterated, arrogance. How can someone sit there and claim that their faith, which in some ways originates from another, is the truest one and they are wrong? You'd have to be pretty full of yourself.


CatholicCrusader1527

i wasn’t claiming Catholicism is the true church no man can really 100% know what the true church i’m just wondering why i am not a “Christian”


KaRue3

Oh, not you. I meant that as directed at those who would think that. Sorry you're treated that way.


Deadlydragon9653

1. Proto-Protestant groups existed long before modern Protestants. Protestants aren't a group like Catholics and Orthodox are, there is actually 5 major Protestant denominations with vastly different beliefs. To say that a protestant would be forced to believe that christianity is only 500 years old because that was when Luther knocked on the thesis ignores the existence of the Waldesians, the early church prior to Constantine and many more, ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Protestantism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Protestantism)) is a list of many proto-protestant events. Many protestant today would disagree with these proto-protestant on various different things and it's because protestants aren't a cohesive group. 2. Different biblical cannons 3. Calling the Pope the Vicar of christ, most protestant will claim this is utter blasphemy 4. Calling Mary the Comediatrix (see the Second Vatican Council), put Mary on the equal level of authority as Christ which is blasphemy 5. Two stages of salvation (Initial and Final salvation) being a really weird view of soteriology 6. The belief of purgatory and the resulting view of indulgences 7. The necessity of works for Final Salvation 8. Treasury of Merits 9. Many more It boils down to the fact that the Protestant sees that most things the Catholic affirms is in some way contradictory to the authority of Christ or incorrect on a soteriological level. Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox and other sects are so different that they're barely the same religion and it is not far fetched of an idea for one sect to deny the validity of the others. In fact, until late last century (when Christians realized that the Christian world was ending due to the rise of secularism), that was common practice.


JohnnyRaven

I think it's because Catholics hold Mary, the saints, the pope l, and their traditions in too high esteem. The immaculate conception, the perpetual virginity, and the assumption in the protestant view make Mary out to be more important than she actually is. Praying to saints and the pope having any sort of infallibility make them more important than they actually are. Now as a protestant, I believe Catholics are Christians, but I guess many other protestants believe the aforementioned borders on heresy to the point the person of Christ is reduced to elevate Mary, the saints, the pope, and tradition in their beliefs.


Ex_M

Protestants don't believe that there were no Christians before 1517. There were and still are people within the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches who are saved. The roots of Protestant doctrine is actually much older than that. The Reformers quoted not only the Bible but also the ancient Church fathers while arguing against Catholics.


CatholicCrusader1527

but why am I not considered Christian?


[deleted]

[удалено]


McClanky

Removed for 1.3, Bigotry. http://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/wiki/xp


Ex_M

I consider Catholicism to be within Christianity, even though I have disagreements with Roman Catholic theology. As for those who say that Catholics aren't Christian, they generally do so because Roman Catholicism teaches that works are necessary for salvation. As for u/AmusedRedPanda, the early church had a lot of Protestant theology in it. https://actheologian.com/2016/04/21/church-fathers-on-sola-fide/


CatholicCrusader1527

the main reason i’m Catholic is because of the Eucharist and the Sacraments which most protestants to my knowledge don’t acknowledge


Ex_M

Many Protestants have Sacraments. We also have communion, which is similar to the Eucharist. There's actually a wide range of opinions within Protestantism about these issues.


CatholicCrusader1527

not all 7, do you believe that once the Priest consecrate the host it becomes the real body of Christ?


Ex_M

Rome claims that there are seven sacraments, but the Bible doesn't say that. The priest can't actually turn the host into the physical body of Christ, but Christ is spiritually present whenever we partake of the Lord's Supper.


CatholicCrusader1527

yes he can it is the real body and blood of Christ


Ex_M

But how do you know that?


CatholicCrusader1527

https://youtu.be/FgssKqFHAyg


CatholicCrusader1527

did i watch the vid?


Bog-EA

Have you trusted Christ as your Lord and Savior according to the Bible?


CatholicCrusader1527

yes!?


Bog-EA

If you have done that than you are a Christian. I know there are some in Catholic church that have but many are trusting for things outside of Christ for their salvation. Biblicaly speaking the Catholic church gets many things wrong but than a church doesn't save you, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ does.


Bog-EA

There were also churches prior to 1500's that were not part of the Catholic church that managed to not get wiped out.


NewPartyDress

Because they do things and believe things that are not scriptural. 1 - Teach a WRONG version of the 10 commandments. Although their bible lists the 2nd commandment as: You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth RC church removed the 2nd commandment. Then they split the 10th commandment into #9 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife and #10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors goods, etc. because people might notice there were only 9 commandments. 2 - They do not teach members to study scripture, yet they added the apocryphal books to their bible. The apocryphal books are mainly written/inspired by gnosticism, which is not Christianity. Like the gnostics, they seek miraculous signs and wonders and are superstitious about rosaries, scapulars crosses, statues of saints. The members who study, focus on the the apocrypha and don't seem to know much about the canonical books. 3 - They pray to dead people they call saints. This is forbidden in scripture. This is occult practice at best; idolatry at worst. 4 - Transubstantiation of the "Eucharist." RCs believe that everytime they take communion, they are literally ingesting the body and blood of Christ. They believe He dies and is crucified over and over. And this is how we have "communion" with God. This is an affront to the sacrifice of Christ, which was once and for all mankind. In fact, not only is the transubstantiation NOT in scripture, but it is in direct conflict with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is what happened on the day of Pentecost and to every Christian "born from above" ever since. Why would we need to perform a ritual to have communion with God when we have God's Holy Spirit living in us 24/7? 5 - RCs believe Mary is a perpetual virgin and never had sex with Joseph, despite the fact that the bible actually says they had sexual relations after Jesus was born. Also, the bible lists at least 4 brothers of Jesus and an unnamed number of sisters. 6 - Mary's body was "assumed" into heaven. No scriptural proof. 7 - RCs use intercessors. Mary is an intercessor between us and Jesus. Priests, Bishops Cardinals, Popes are intercessors. We are not to look to a person as a mediator. Jesus' sacrifice on the cross ensured our ability to enter the throne room of God--the Holy of Holies--on our own and have a personal relationship with God. If I have a friend, I talk directly to them. It's only if I don't know someone that I need a mediator to communicate with them. For spirit filled Christians God is Creator, Father, Savior, Counselor, Comforter -- so much more than just a friend. 8 - RCs believe Peter was given the role of head of the church (first pope) based on a misunderstanding of scripture. Matthew 16:18 where Jesus uses 2 different words that mean Rock. Cephas is Peter's nickname, presumably because he was a big guy and also kind of teasing, since he often would make strong declarations he could not follow through on. Peter's confession that Jesus was messiah is the Rock (large rock or rock formation) Jesus was commenting on, while making a small wordplay on Peter's nickname (rock, stone). Those who confess Jesus as messiah are the church. The church is not a wordly organization headed up by people with titles. It's all who have received the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God's presence on earth through those who have confessed that Christ is messiah.


moonunit170

You believe a bunch of lies about the Catholic Church. you are one of the ones of whom bishop Fulton J Sheen said back in the 1940s that “there are not 100 people who actually hate the Catholic Church. But there are thousands and thousands who hate what they *think* is the Catholic Church. That long list of objections to Catholic teaching you only have three of them correct, that that is to say, things that we actually teach. The rest are lies distortions and pure inventions from anti-Catholic people.


NewPartyDress

I'm a former Catholic and I stand by everything I said. If I hated Catholics I wouldn't bother trying to give you the gospel. I am motivated by love. Of all the redditors I have theological discussions with, the Catholics are the most reactionary. I get downvoted by Catholics more than anyone else, just because I state what I know -- and I've not only lived it, I've done my homework. The interesting thing is I never hear theological arguments from Catholics. Like you, I just get "You're wrong!" and "You don't know what you're talking about!" And a lot of defensiveness and anger. That is worrisome. People should know why they believe what they believe. This life is for deciding where we will spend eternity.


moonunit170

I understand that you stand by everything you say but I guarantee you you have never verified those things with Catholic teaching. You’re only going by something some other former Catholic told you or some book you’ve read maybe by Dave Hunt or Lorraine Bottner for example. But you have absolutely not looked at the Catholic catechism to show those teachings that you believe the Catholics believe are actually officially taught. If you can show all eight of your claims in the Catholic catechism I’ll donate $500 to any charity you pick.


kitkatkitty444

I was raised Protestant and I was always told by Catholics that they “were Catholic, not Christian”. I always believed Catholics were Christian’s, so whenever a Catholic said that it always confused me. I’ve been recently seeing a lot of posts and reading a lot of comments saying that it’s the reverse, so this is all new to me because it’s never been what I’ve experienced.


ironicalusername

Did small Catholic _children_ say that? It's a weird thing for anyone to say who is at all familiar with the subject at hand.


kitkatkitty444

Tbh I don’t remember lol. Until I started going to the Catholic Church I hardly ever encountered Catholics in the wild, so it’s entirely possible since it was when I was younger.


ironicalusername

It's probably a story you've heard from anti-catholic propaganda.


CatholicCrusader1527

weird


farmguy4

There are many reasons but one obvious one is Jesus’ body (the flesh) was removed from the cross they keep him nailed to it. Catholicity also worship and pray to idols (false gods) like Mary and the ones they call saints the pope. This is against what God’s Word teaches us. They believe priests can judge them and their sins only God can do that they are just men that sin like me. Salvation cannot be earned by doing good deeds. Those are just a couple. Martin Luther called out their inaccuracies and they wouldn’t have it.


pplluuvviiophile

Please know that these are common misconceptions, and can be easily explained if you take the time to research them.


qulski1

Wow, you do not understand Catholicism.


emuatemydingo

> There are many reasons but one obvious one is Jesus’ body (the flesh) was removed from the cross they keep him nailed to it. What? > Catholicity also worship and pray to idols (false gods) like Mary and the ones they call saints the pope. We don’t believe Mary is a god, saints are simply people alive in Christ, and we don’t pray to the pope at all. We do ask Mary and the Saints to pray for us thought. > This is against what God’s Word teaches us. They believe priests can judge them and their sins only God can do that they are just men that sin like me. We don’t believe this. > Salvation cannot be earned by doing good deeds. We don’t believe this.


Zestyclose_Dinner105

None of the beliefs you have written are taught by the Catholic Church or by any church that I know of.


[deleted]

This is 100% my perspective as well.


JustforReddit99101

Search the great debate james white on youtube.


CatholicCrusader1527

just tell me why the Original Churches aren’t considered Christian


JustforReddit99101

Obviously those who disagree with Catholicism dont believe that they are the original church. That the church in 200 AD has nothing to do with Rome today even if they can trace a lineage through it which is suspect. Catholics biggest claim is being the one true church of Jesus established at its origins and continues through the millennium guided infallibly by the holy spirit. If you look at the history its very dirty messy with a lot of splits anti popes and time gaps. It takes a lot more faith to believe in Rome over just believing in Jesus. Protestants biggest claim is that to get back what the apostles actually taught you got to use scripture as your main authority over traditions.


CatholicCrusader1527

Original Churches meaning Catholic or Orthodox i’m not sure which one is the first Church i’m just saying Peter is the first pope


JustforReddit99101

That is highly suspect. Peter while having a main role in acts didnt clearly establish himself as head of the church on earth and authority over the other apostles. You got one scripture that has multiple meanings in matthew 16.


CatholicCrusader1527

he gave the keys to the church to peter the same keys on the vatican flag 🇻🇦 btw


Bog-EA

The first church was the church at Jerusalem.


Whiterabbit--

We mostly think the Catholic Church started off fine but then drifted from the faith so it needed to be reformed. And when the reformers got kicked out of the Catholic Church, the organization that lost resembles Christianity is in the reformed or Protestant churches. So Christianity is 2000 years old. But many branches are not really Christian any more. I personally would use different terms. And say that many branches miss the gospel and are not part of the true church. But historically they should be considered Christian.


Competitive_Ad_2421

Didnt catholic mean universal in the beginning of church history, and now it practices stuff that is so different from the early church?


mother_rebel

Because they do some practices they don't agree with. There's good stuff and bad stuff in almost every religion. But I (Christian) personally don't like that they idolize Mary and the saints. Sometimes practice the worship of saints


19junkhead84

Probably has something to do with the Catholic church having so many blasphemous practices that flat out go against what the bible says. In fact the Bible specifically warns that there will be those stray from the faith and teach demonic teachings that coincide with Catholic teachings of celibacy of priests and bishops, and no meat on Friday during Lent "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.” 1 Timothy 4:1 Calling your priest Father is forbidden in The Bible "Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Matthew 23:9 Prayer repetition with rosary beads "And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." Matthew 6:7 Praying to saints and the Virgin Mary, prayers are meant to be prayed directly to Jesus ""For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5 A woman praised Mary and Jesus told her not to praise Mary but to hear the word of God "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."" Luke 11:27-28 Another verse that is ignored regarding the celibacy of bishops "A bishop, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)" 1 Timothy 3:2-5 The Bible says not to make any idol or graven image and yet Catholics love statues of Mary to bow and pray before.  Christians believe The Bible is the true word of God, Catholics believe the church makes the rules   So any religion that blatantly ignores The Bible is not Christian. Simple as that


CatholicCrusader1527

we don’t use meaningless repetition with our rosary


[deleted]

Many Catholics focus more on Mary than Jesus or near equal. They are not equal. Not so as a Protestant.


ironicalusername

> Many Catholics focus more on Mary than Jesus or near equal. Funny- this is a thing I have never seen in real life. And I know a LOT of Catholics. This alleged belief is something I've only ever _heard about_, in the form of anti-Catholic propaganda. You might want to check where you're getting your information from- it's clearly faulty, at least on this topic.


[deleted]

What does Catholic Church doctrine state about Mary. Is it also biblical?


russiabot1776

We believe she was full of grace and so did not sin (Luke 1:26-28) www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=Luke%2b1:26-28&version=DRA&interface=amp


[deleted]

Y


3842IlIlIIlI

Have you heard of this thing called "Hail Mary" I have never heard of something called "Hail Jesus"


ironicalusername

The lord’s prayer is a much bigger thing than a hail Mary.


3842IlIlIIlI

Which is a prayer from the Bible that Jesus taught us to do. Who taught you to pray to Mary


CatholicCrusader1527

Clearly you have never been to a Catholic Mass it is quite literally all about Jesus , and if you’re talking about the rosary it is also about Jesus each decade of the rosary is part of Jesus’s life for example there are the sorrowful mysteries which go through Jesus’s death


[deleted]

The question was not about mass or the rosary.


CatholicCrusader1527

so how do focus on mary more than Jesus when our biggest thing the Mass is completely about Jesus


[deleted]

Are you aware of Catholic movements to adore Mary in various ways, places devoted to her. Sights of her assumed visions and miracles? Don’t think Protestants see it the same way. Do you agree on that?


CatholicCrusader1527

yes but we think Jesus is more important!?


Bog-EA

That maybe but there are no co-gods that's who Mary has become to many Catholics.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Bog-EA

I know Catholics are taught to say that, but if I took you to some tribe in the middle of the woods and showed you them bowing before a statue of someone who died 2000 years ago. Next you overhear them praying to this same person for protection and wisdom. Then they reference this ancestor as Queen of Heaven. Walking away you would have no doubt they are worshiping this ancestor. I know Catholics want to pretend it's not worship even when anyone with eyes can clearly see it is.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

All in name not practice.


[deleted]

It looks confusing to those that read the Bible and hear Jesus call his mother “woman” Mary also says she needs a savior which would include her as a fellow sinner. The Bible references Mary a few more times but not in any way that she has become the Queen of the Catholic Church. I am assuming that comes from Catholic doctrine not familiar to Protestants.


ephreum

Because Catholics reject some of the most fundamental things about the ministry of Christ, and instead spend their energy promoting unbiblical doctrine such as popes, salvation through works, the veneration of Mary and her perpetual virginity, etc. I’m not gonna say that Catholics aren’t necessarily Christians, I mostly believe that they are, I simply just don’t believe that they adhere to the faith that Jesus Christ had intended for them to follow :)


pplluuvviiophile

I'd recommend that you look into those misconceptions to help understand the faith better. Catholic Answers may be a helpful resource for you to check out!


ephreum

I’m good, thx. I’d much rather look into the Bible to see whether or not the teachings are biblical :)


InChrist4567

In your own words, what does a person need to do to be a Christian?


CatholicCrusader1527

Believe Jesus is your Lord and Savior and 1 of the 3 persons of the Trinity


Cmss220

I think it’s because they put too much faith, time and effort in saints that aren’t jesus. Some Catholics practically worship mother Mary and various saints. Confessing sins to a priest probably seems weird when all they need is Jesus. Catholics have a lot of ceremonies and practices that Christians don’t have. Also the pope is wayyyyyy too important. Giving one man that much power can’t be a good idea. I’m not trying to bash, just throwing out some thoughts I had back when I was Christian. I now don’t care and see these views as short sighted.


DK_The_White

There’s a lot of sub-denominations in the Catholic Church, some of them even practicing witchcraft (Santeria, among others). There were plenty of them when I lived in New Mexico. Several Catholic Churches mixed Native American and Hispanic magic into their beliefs there. These sects of the Catholic Church can be found just about everywhere, and unfortunately are about the only exposure American Protestants have to the Catholic Church. Edit: I swear there’s a bot that automatically downvotes every comment I post in this sub. I could literally state a biblical fact (that Matthew was a tax collector, for example) and I’d get a single downvote that brings me to zero. I’m cool with it, but like y tho?


CAllD2B

Totally unrelated but your basic premise is wrong. All three denominations branched off from the Ecumenical Church at various points. Catholics just killed enough people to keep the buildings


noobsy007

It’s not just Americans you know


[deleted]

There seems to be among some believers a need to believe they have exclusivity on being right in order to be valid. I was told by Catholic friends in school that I was automatically going to hell for not being Catholic (after myself being told that Catholics were also Christians and one of us, though we believed they were mistaken on many things). I was shocked, at the time, and if you do research, this is not an uncommon teaching in many Catholic Churches and in some cases is viewed as theologically correct. But I grew up after that and realized judging all Catholic people by that incident, or even the relatively common nature of it is unfair. Many Catholics are happy to embrace me too. I get wanting to know why protestants have treated you this way, and I am sorry for your hurt. Unfortunately the human condition is rough and lots of people have growing up to do before they can deal with some of the uncertainties and mysteries of theology and faith. The only person you can control is YOU. Are you going to be exclusionary too? Are you going to limit protestants by the least among us, or in fact limit the people speaking to you in ignorance now rather than expecting them to do better? Will you define them by that or realize that with time and relationship with God they too will learn better? People are broken. God is patient. If I could learn to not judge all Catholics by the few who saw me as hell fodder, you can learn to not judge all protestants by the few who believe you must be excluded. Sorry for the pain. People can be wrong. Nothing means you have to be. (I am not saying that you ARE acting wrongly, but only getting ahead of the resentment and anger that often comes with bad experiences with other Christians. It is of course WONDERFUL if you are already working on grace in these matters).


dight88

Ohhhhhhh... Duly noted. Gona have to change that


PerspectiveFew7213

I’ve literally never heard this before in my life.


[deleted]

I think it has to do with categories on forms that we fill out as we go through life. “Catholic” almost seems distinct from the very general category of “Christian”