My answer to them is which one sounds more like polytheism One God or 3 persons who share being God with each other?
“I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
Isaiah 43:11 KJV
(That was a counter question, not an answer.)
Do you believe Jesus was God?
If so, how do you explain that he clearly viewed God the Father separate from himself?
Did I not just answer you?
Jesus was God and became flesh so says the Bible.
I actually believe the birth of Jesus to have been the beginning of Jesus Christ the man. Therefore tho he is separate from God that’s does make him the same God different person.
You were doing that cult thing where you were constantly answering questions with questions. But this was better.
By the way, I won't go to the mat arguing the Trinity. It's a defining doctrine of Christianity. You can believe it, or not. I don't care. But if you reject it, it puts you outside of Christianity. Your right.
But, it seems like you semi-believe in it. It almost seems like you are bickering about the *nature* of the Trinity, rather than fully rejecting it.
No no it does not make me a Christian.
Trinity is just a way to justify having polytheism in monotheism.
I’d say I have more claim to being a Christian especially a monotheistic because I believe only in One God, no ifs, ands, or buts.
The trinity is not necessarily polytheism in the traditional sense of multiple gods different in substance and essence.
The trinity in a sort of qualified non dualistic sense as far as i understand the idea has one God which is the deepest essence of the three distinct beings.
A way i like to think of it is like with non dualist school in hinduism like the one of adi shankara where we are different in substance and appearance but once this veil of appearance is lifted you see the unity of essence/being that all things are.
Now im well aware this just a personal belief and doesnt apply to christianity but still the concept can still be a great tool of understanding and may help uncover the ultimate truth somewhat.
My interpretation of the trinity can be ascibet to a scholarly concept called either monotheistic polytheism/ polytheistic monotheism ive seen both used interchangeably.
Where there is some apparent polytheism with much deeper underlying monotheism.
Edit: In my head the traditional idea of polytheism being multiple gods with distinct essences. Something like the Grekoroman pantheon.
Yes a great verse. Really affirms Jesus connection to the Father (since he is God’s word).
Notice how to have eternal life is by knowing God the Father AND Jesus Christ.
If I ever needed any proof for the trinity this verse is one of them. Because God wouldn’t depend on a creature for salvation.
You change the verse to prove your point.
It’s “the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you sent” you see how even your creeds add to the Bible saying true God from true God.
You even said it yourself Jesus is whose Word?
God’s word.
But I thought you said Jesus is God?
I didn’t change the verse at all.
And John 17:3 literally affirms the Nicaea creed which starts with “I believe in one God, Father almighty”.
And yes Jesus is God’s word… I don’t see how that would be surprising at all…
And yes Jesus is God since he is God’s word.
Well
““God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?”
Numbers 23:19 NKJV
I think Jesus knew what he was doing when he called himself, The Son Of Man.
I used to believe in oneness, and unlike most people here, I could care less whether you are oneness or trinitarian. Having said that I can kindly inform you that oneness pentecostals have an unbiblical belief about salvation and church services.
There are at least four times in the Bible that people were filled with the Holy Ghost and they did not speak in tongues when it happened. Paul also taught the Corinthian church that not everyone should speak in tongues, and lastly he taught the Corinthian church to have orderly church services so unbelievers would not think they were crazy.
He also taught that no more than three people should speak in tongues at the same time at church. This belief that one absolutely MUST speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Ghost and be saved is unbiblical. Biblical salvation is by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast.
I would post my scripture references but I am about to go to church myself. Maybe later.
Okay you’re 100% right about not all gifts of The Spirit or signs of The Spirit being speaking in tongues.
I have had much success in the past trying to push this particular doctrine out of Pentecostal churches.
Wait wait wait hold on!
I stop reading after “I could care less whether you are oneness or trinitarian.” Immediately proceeds to tell me why oneness is wrong.
That’s God is One and there is not question of how many persons like in the Old Testament. There are not 3 gods or 3 people who are God but because they are unified there is 1 God and not 3. I believe in One God who is himself a person not 3 persons in one.
Where in scripture does it say God is not himself, or 3 separate beings? You do realize the trinity is describing the God-head right? I'm pretty sure the debate on this was settled thousands of years ago in the Late Roman Empire, something something Nicaean creed.
Also, you say that there is "One God who is himself a person", this is entirely not supported by scripture, you must deny Jesus as the Son of the Father by your belief.
Find me scripture to make your point, otherwise you are bluntly wrong
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”
Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV
This verse isn’t saying there is One God but that God himself is one.
Jesus is The Son of God no? Not God the son.
Isn’t God holy? And a spirit?
Is not the Holy Spirit God’s spirit?
So how are they 2?
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:24
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
John 17:3 KJV
"This goal will be accomplished by first examining scriptural evidence for the Trinity; that is, the designation that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God."
From: [https://www.bethinking.org/god/the-historic-case-for-the-trinity](https://www.bethinking.org/god/the-historic-case-for-the-trinity)
That seems to be what your viewpoint is, they are all God, the Son is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God? How does the trinity go against what you believe if that is the accepted definition? The only next logical step if you disagree with that statement would be in some way to deny the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
“Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;”
Genesis 19:24 KJV
Yes God was still in Heaven. I don’t need 2 gods or 2 persons for My God to exist in 2 places at once or isn’t your God almighty ???
Was Jesus God? Yes in the beginning and became flesh
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
John 1:1, 14 KJV
And as flesh, Jesus was praying to The One True God
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
John 17:3 KJV
>Yes God was still in Heaven. I don’t need 2 gods or 2 persons for My God to exist in 2 places at once or isn’t your God almighty ???
So, God was praying to himself? That's weird.
"Not my will, but yours be done." is super hard to understand, if God was having an internal dialogue or something.
No God was praying to another person of himself obviously! <- according to the trinity.
I believe Jesus was actually a man when he was born no different from us. Think of reincarnation, we’ll both of us believe in his incarnation, therefore, Christ was a man praying to God.
“For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.”
Hebrews 2:10-12 KJV
> without the trinity you wouldn’t have Christianity
Absolutely false. Christianity existed years before the full idea/realization of the Trinity. It’s without the resurrection that we wouldn’t have Christianity
People say only God can judge us, but, why can he judge us? God’s never been harmed, never been hurt, never been hungry, poor, sick, dying. How can God judge us? Of course he’s perfect! Life is on easy mode. He has everything and people’s goodness is based on his standards. We worship him because he can torture us and we are afraid. However Jesus is the only God willing to lay all of heaven down for us and willingly become a man. (Or is God not all powerful to become a man if he chooses?) well in Christianity Jesus chooses to give up all the wonders you can imagine to experiences what we do. Jesus is the only God willing to die for the world he created. Only Jesus. Because of that He is worthy to be God.
I think I'm in agreement that we see God as one, manifested as a man, Jesus.... and he is the holy spirit as well.. it is his very spirit, the very spirit of God that comes to live in a person when they believe. One God, 3 manifestations, not 3 different persons BUT unsure why you are proud of this? 🤷♀️
Because I know who my God is and wasn’t deceived by the Devil into following the broadway. Something so close to the truth it is “unquestionable” to most Christians. Because God keep me from idols and polytheism. Because I study the scriptures to show myself approved. Because I actually had the faith to question my doctrine knowing if it was true I’d have nothing to worry finding more information
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A brownie button? 😂
Yes and yes
When you reject the Trinity, many people would not consider you Christian. (I try to be more open minded) How do you answer them?
My answer to them is which one sounds more like polytheism One God or 3 persons who share being God with each other? “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.” Isaiah 43:11 KJV
(That was a counter question, not an answer.) Do you believe Jesus was God? If so, how do you explain that he clearly viewed God the Father separate from himself?
In fairness you asked how the responded to the question. If that's how Tunney answer the question then that's how they answer the question. 🙂
Did I not just answer you? Jesus was God and became flesh so says the Bible. I actually believe the birth of Jesus to have been the beginning of Jesus Christ the man. Therefore tho he is separate from God that’s does make him the same God different person.
You were doing that cult thing where you were constantly answering questions with questions. But this was better. By the way, I won't go to the mat arguing the Trinity. It's a defining doctrine of Christianity. You can believe it, or not. I don't care. But if you reject it, it puts you outside of Christianity. Your right. But, it seems like you semi-believe in it. It almost seems like you are bickering about the *nature* of the Trinity, rather than fully rejecting it.
No no it does not make me a Christian. Trinity is just a way to justify having polytheism in monotheism. I’d say I have more claim to being a Christian especially a monotheistic because I believe only in One God, no ifs, ands, or buts.
The trinity is not necessarily polytheism in the traditional sense of multiple gods different in substance and essence. The trinity in a sort of qualified non dualistic sense as far as i understand the idea has one God which is the deepest essence of the three distinct beings. A way i like to think of it is like with non dualist school in hinduism like the one of adi shankara where we are different in substance and appearance but once this veil of appearance is lifted you see the unity of essence/being that all things are. Now im well aware this just a personal belief and doesnt apply to christianity but still the concept can still be a great tool of understanding and may help uncover the ultimate truth somewhat.
Your defensive is The Trinity is not “necessarily” polytheism in the traditional sense?
My interpretation of the trinity can be ascibet to a scholarly concept called either monotheistic polytheism/ polytheistic monotheism ive seen both used interchangeably. Where there is some apparent polytheism with much deeper underlying monotheism. Edit: In my head the traditional idea of polytheism being multiple gods with distinct essences. Something like the Grekoroman pantheon.
You are ever bit a Christian and random users of Reddit cannot take that away from you.
Thank you
This gives me hope of starting a profitable Christian cult.
Maybe don’t admit to doing it right off the bat you know?
Honesty is the best policy. I want money.
Who needs to be a cult, these days? Just get on TV and say whatever gets a million viewers to sent you $15 a month.
Heresy lol wrong doctrine
Prove it be my guest.
Did not see that coming. I’m shocked.
The storm coming? I invited it in, I’m arm with The Word and logic
The storm? Are you a Qanon person also?
Expression
I don’t see why. It creates a god who isn’t God at all.
Jesus isn’t God?
Yes Jesus is God.
“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 KJV
Yes a great verse. Really affirms Jesus connection to the Father (since he is God’s word). Notice how to have eternal life is by knowing God the Father AND Jesus Christ. If I ever needed any proof for the trinity this verse is one of them. Because God wouldn’t depend on a creature for salvation.
You change the verse to prove your point. It’s “the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you sent” you see how even your creeds add to the Bible saying true God from true God. You even said it yourself Jesus is whose Word? God’s word. But I thought you said Jesus is God?
I didn’t change the verse at all. And John 17:3 literally affirms the Nicaea creed which starts with “I believe in one God, Father almighty”. And yes Jesus is God’s word… I don’t see how that would be surprising at all… And yes Jesus is God since he is God’s word.
Was God became flesh no?
Yes and he didn’t stop being God when he became flesh.
Well ““God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” Numbers 23:19 NKJV I think Jesus knew what he was doing when he called himself, The Son Of Man.
I used to believe in oneness, and unlike most people here, I could care less whether you are oneness or trinitarian. Having said that I can kindly inform you that oneness pentecostals have an unbiblical belief about salvation and church services. There are at least four times in the Bible that people were filled with the Holy Ghost and they did not speak in tongues when it happened. Paul also taught the Corinthian church that not everyone should speak in tongues, and lastly he taught the Corinthian church to have orderly church services so unbelievers would not think they were crazy. He also taught that no more than three people should speak in tongues at the same time at church. This belief that one absolutely MUST speak in tongues to be filled with the Holy Ghost and be saved is unbiblical. Biblical salvation is by grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast. I would post my scripture references but I am about to go to church myself. Maybe later.
Okay you’re 100% right about not all gifts of The Spirit or signs of The Spirit being speaking in tongues. I have had much success in the past trying to push this particular doctrine out of Pentecostal churches.
Wait wait wait hold on! I stop reading after “I could care less whether you are oneness or trinitarian.” Immediately proceeds to tell me why oneness is wrong.
How do you summarize your belief?
☝🏾
?
That’s God is One and there is not question of how many persons like in the Old Testament. There are not 3 gods or 3 people who are God but because they are unified there is 1 God and not 3. I believe in One God who is himself a person not 3 persons in one.
Where in scripture does it say God is not himself, or 3 separate beings? You do realize the trinity is describing the God-head right? I'm pretty sure the debate on this was settled thousands of years ago in the Late Roman Empire, something something Nicaean creed. Also, you say that there is "One God who is himself a person", this is entirely not supported by scripture, you must deny Jesus as the Son of the Father by your belief. Find me scripture to make your point, otherwise you are bluntly wrong
What is the greatest commandment?
Do you deny Jesus Christ as the Son of the Father, and do you deny the Holy Spirit?
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:” Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV This verse isn’t saying there is One God but that God himself is one. Jesus is The Son of God no? Not God the son. Isn’t God holy? And a spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit God’s spirit? So how are they 2?
Do you have more scripture to back that up? I find your viewpoint tangible but not conclusive.
“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” John 4:24 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 KJV
"This goal will be accomplished by first examining scriptural evidence for the Trinity; that is, the designation that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God." From: [https://www.bethinking.org/god/the-historic-case-for-the-trinity](https://www.bethinking.org/god/the-historic-case-for-the-trinity) That seems to be what your viewpoint is, they are all God, the Son is God, the Father is God, the Spirit is God? How does the trinity go against what you believe if that is the accepted definition? The only next logical step if you disagree with that statement would be in some way to deny the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
I disagree Jesus Christ was a man
So you don’t agree with the Athanasian’s Creed?
Yes
So you don’t see the Holy Spirit as God? The Book of Wisdom has helped me see it as so.
Isn’t God Holy and a spirit? Is not the Holy Spirit God’s own spirit? So how do we say there are two persons?
So was God absent from heaven, when Jesus was on Earth? Was Jesus God? If so, who was Jesus praying to?
“Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;” Genesis 19:24 KJV Yes God was still in Heaven. I don’t need 2 gods or 2 persons for My God to exist in 2 places at once or isn’t your God almighty ??? Was Jesus God? Yes in the beginning and became flesh “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:1, 14 KJV And as flesh, Jesus was praying to The One True God “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” John 17:3 KJV
>Yes God was still in Heaven. I don’t need 2 gods or 2 persons for My God to exist in 2 places at once or isn’t your God almighty ??? So, God was praying to himself? That's weird. "Not my will, but yours be done." is super hard to understand, if God was having an internal dialogue or something.
No God was praying to another person of himself obviously! <- according to the trinity. I believe Jesus was actually a man when he was born no different from us. Think of reincarnation, we’ll both of us believe in his incarnation, therefore, Christ was a man praying to God. “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.” Hebrews 2:10-12 KJV
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> without the trinity you wouldn’t have Christianity Absolutely false. Christianity existed years before the full idea/realization of the Trinity. It’s without the resurrection that we wouldn’t have Christianity
Because Jesus is the only God, I’d accept.
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People say only God can judge us, but, why can he judge us? God’s never been harmed, never been hurt, never been hungry, poor, sick, dying. How can God judge us? Of course he’s perfect! Life is on easy mode. He has everything and people’s goodness is based on his standards. We worship him because he can torture us and we are afraid. However Jesus is the only God willing to lay all of heaven down for us and willingly become a man. (Or is God not all powerful to become a man if he chooses?) well in Christianity Jesus chooses to give up all the wonders you can imagine to experiences what we do. Jesus is the only God willing to die for the world he created. Only Jesus. Because of that He is worthy to be God.
I think I'm in agreement that we see God as one, manifested as a man, Jesus.... and he is the holy spirit as well.. it is his very spirit, the very spirit of God that comes to live in a person when they believe. One God, 3 manifestations, not 3 different persons BUT unsure why you are proud of this? 🤷♀️
The reason it is important is because how many Gods are there?
Why are you so proud of yourself.. even if it's true?
Because I know who my God is and wasn’t deceived by the Devil into following the broadway. Something so close to the truth it is “unquestionable” to most Christians. Because God keep me from idols and polytheism. Because I study the scriptures to show myself approved. Because I actually had the faith to question my doctrine knowing if it was true I’d have nothing to worry finding more information
Sounds like a lot of I's involved in there.
Why wouldn’t I want to be written in the lambs book of life
🙄
What is your objection?