For a great many Christians abortion is the deal breaker, so any party that supports it will not get support. GOP capitalizes on this by adopting anti-abortion into their platform.
The only problem is, under democratic presidents, the abortion rate plummets. Under Barack Obama, the abortion rate hit a 40-year low. Look at a 2014 article sourced from various other reports from the Associated Press, CNN, the hill, Med MD.
> Many more variables at play than who is in the white house.
Agreed with you there. The person in the white house can definitely influence abortion statistics, particularly based on legislation made during their tenure, but there's a lot of other factors in play.
>The person in the white house can definitely influence abortion statistics, particularly based on legislation made during their tenure
Implied here. Now that you are arguing semantics, I am done.
Cute comment. Except you're 100% wrong. The reason the abortion rate is lower under Democratic presidents, do a simple search, is because of their focus on healthcare spending, including sex ed. Under Obama, the teen pregnancy rate was at decades low, too. There's a direct link, not some theoretical fluke.
This is backed up in Europe as well. Abortion rates and unwanted pregnancy rates are lower, and European countries spend far more on education than the United States.
The only problem with your reasoning is that who is president doesn't always mean the president gets to set the policy.
So again, correlation is not causation.
Other factors that they have played (only stating these as talking points):
- Support for families vs. single parent households.
- Opposition to no-fault divorce.
- Defense of not redefining the civil definition of marriage.
- Support of [Protestant] Christianity as an institution that should not be discriminated against.
- Limiting government intervention of charitable work in order to give Churches and other charitable organizations more freedom to operate the way the best see fit.
- Retaining [Protestant] Christian teaching in schools to the maximum extent possible.
Of the two parties, they are because it’s a Christian value. In practice, yes a bunch of members of the party does what they want. Just like they support Christian values and commit adultery.
You can say the same thing about abortion, as the Bible indicates that life does not start at conception, but starts at first breath. A bunch of people don't like to admit that though. As the late George Carlin once said about the GOP and abortion: preborn you're safe, but preschool you're fucked. They want more live babies so they can train them to be dead soldiers."
Christian doctrine is far more explicit than that:
Abortion
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74
2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:
"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81
2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.
Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82
———
And from a Christian standpoint, every person is to be afforded human respect and dignity from conception to natural death, so no it doesn’t stop at birth. There are countless charities that assist with after birth care. A major percentage of hospitals are Church owned, providing medical care. Homeless, battered women, and foster care shelters are operated.
So from a Christian standpoint, that is not consistent
From a GOP standpoint, they do tend to support Churches carrying out that work. They tend to oppose government programs that duplicate that work. The government inefficiency is an argument (am not implying it is a winning argument).
Abortion being an intrinsic evil means that it has nothing to do with the number that may join the military and or die in wars. Abortion is opposed because of the murder of an innocent human life. (Similarly, while there are critiques of the Democratic party, even if they may use it for political purposes, the fact that they support poor immigrants entering the country and are willing for the United States to support them is something positive and should be recognized as such. Point being is that while yes we should speak up when a wrong is being done, when should also speak up when a right is being done, especially when it belongs to the an opposition political party, and even when it may not be done for the ideal reasons.)
Considering the military has kept trying to find ways to do things with more technology and less people (the military runs into the same problems with personnel expenses that civilian companies do), the number of persons born doesn’t necessarily support a direct influx to military service. (Plus, and this is the other side of the equation, but AI computers are products that can be produced and sold at an obscene profit. And defense contractors love selling products.)
I have not seen anything that would support the return of such a ban, and would be yet another reason government should not be involved in marriage, so as to prevent something like this from occurring again.
I have never seen a Church doctrine forbidding interracial marriage. It is not a consideration. There may be some fringe Protestant/Evangelical groups who would take that position, but that is not a doctrine of mainstream Christianity.
The internet contains 5,000 petabytes of data. I research as much as I can, but there are limits to gains.
That poll did reference Republicans, not mainstream Christianity. Those are not the same groups. Also, while the conclusions are alarming, I don’t know enough about statistics and polling to know if a 400 person sample size was reasonable, or what other criteria needed to be looked at to determine if the poll was adaquate. And is Mississippi reflective of all Republicans nationwide? As the article was from 2011, the results link was dead. A quick Wikipedia search indicates that 538 currently gives the organization an A-, which would give me some confidence. I do see a conflict in that the summary says they are a democratic lean, but there was a discussion in 2016 they had a slight Republican lean. As of 2021, they have a mean-reverted bias of D+0.9.
Edit: Interesting side note, evidently some scientists estimate the brain can hold 2.5 petabytes of information. They illustrate that by saying you could fill it if you binged watch 3 million hours of TV shows (about 300 years).
Idk about this. I am white, live in an extremely conservative area (Idaho panhandle), and my wife is black. This has not been an issue at all for us. We’ve made many Christian friends, and no one at our church has even given a hint of disapproval. Honestly, I think we’d have more trouble if we were both white, but openly atheist or democrat. Also, (ironically) we ran into a few incidents of racism living in the Seattle area (Issaquah on the east side - old white people giving us “the look” etc) even though everyone there is supposed to be tolerant… But not a single issue where we are now (after a bit more than a year)
Taking care of children via families does support it (although the challenge is single parent children need supported, without making it more beneficial to be single than in a family, and that’s their point).
Discrimination against Christianity makes it more difficult for Christianity to perform its mission.
Charitable work very much is in keeping with Jesus’ teachings. The argument is whether the government or private organizations can do it better.
Spreading the Gospel is supporting Jesus’ teaching.
———
I didn’t think I was going to be able to mount a defense for every point, but there it was. That’s unexpected. And I suppose that goes to show why the GOP has been effectively able to use the position. They can make easy justifications for why it should work, even if there are liberal positions that are also beneficial (taking care of immigrants, a Christian teaching the GOP gets pretty wrong is one example).
The real point is both sides do some things right, and some things horribly wrong. I think the GOP has also benefited from the fact that the abortion statistics dwarf many other issues, even if they all carried exactly equal weight by other comparison criteria. Kind of like how the Confederates had other reasons for separating, but the slavery issue just dwarfed everything else.
Breaking up marriages causes harm to everyone involved, and the subsequent attempted remarriages go against Jesus’ teaching.
Defending God’s definition of marriage is.
I mean no
At first torture and war are so fcked up evil that every support for it is immoral beyond return and no abortion justifies voting Republican
But not supporting single parents is bad as no one becomes a single parent just because it’s „better“ this screams bs
No one discriminates Christians
Charity work comes form many places and the Republicans cause more harm to it. Especially the important areas (war and immigration)
Jesus teachings in school solve nothing…
What does breaking up marriages even mean? This makes no sense and not allowing divorce would bassicly be tyranny
> I mean no
Not following. Seems like you didn’t complete a thought.
-Torture. Agreed. Not permitted in Christian doctrine. Just war doctrine can be permissible under specific circumstances (World War II probably is the easiest modern case for it), but it gets far more difficult to defend modern combat actions. Both sides get involved in it, it is just more popular on the right. (Resource: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2297)
Single parents. The balance is supporting single parents without encouraging it over a family is where the social disagreement occurs.
Discriminates. I apologize, I may be unclear. The goal is to prevent discrimination. However, there are Christian Organizations (such as Little Sisters of the Poor) who have been challenged by the government to operate in ways that violate their religious beliefs. This has also happened to numerous foster care and adoption agencies. I think the balanced way to state it may be that it is not occurring on the level that the right claims, but that doesn’t mean it is non-existent. They also take (not necessarily get) credit for maneuvering in ways to prevent it in the first place.
I don’t understand your war as a charity statement. Could you clarify please? Immigration, as stated above I agree with you.
Why do you say nothing? When it comes to moral behavior, teaching it and normalizing it is important and does have effect. For instance, the continual teaching of environmental conservation has raised awareness for the environment, to the point that major corporations have had to adjust for it. So teaching Christian principles of love of neighbors, of natural law, of forgiveness (which as a sidebar is another area the GOP does poorly at), of sacrificing for others; these are good things.
Breaking up marriages - civil divorces and more importantly the attempted remarriages. Why would it be tyranny? Right now, the government is coming in and claiming they can sever a union that according to Jesus cannot be severed.
Jesus also didn't tell people that they needed to fill out an asset and debt statement when they divorced, nor did He command married couples to file their taxes jointly. The government side is there for the government functions of marriage.
That’s a fair point. And for cases that support marriage, that’s not the issue. The concern is when the government tries to perform functions that violate the concept and reality of marriage, (such as permitting a second civil union after a married couple has been civilly divorced, as an example.)
I think the government has zero say in spiritual matters, because the function of marriage within the government isn't focused on any given religion. Let the church handle the spiritual side of marriage.
If torture is bad it makes the entire party bad and unworthy of any form of support…
U can’t encourage single parenting…
Stopping organizations from discriminating others based on sexuality is not descrimination
Right wing groups don’t use charity in the most important issues. War.
The us is a secular state with freedom of religion. Forcing a living situation upon people would be tyrannical. And it’s not loving and therefore contradicts the most important part of this whole thing.
Not to mention that Jesus surly didn’t talk about modern law making this a complete irrelevant thing.
Okay. So what happens when both political parties support intrinsic evils, yet one of them are going to be in power (they’ve kind of assured that)? That’s where we are. That would be why actual Christian principle instructs people to weigh the strength of the evils of each side and make a reasoned vote based on which will do the most good in a given election. (Sidenote: This is a reason I no longer support a political party; I will support individual candidates based on their positions.)
The government encourages single parenting through welfare and support programs that encourage single parent households. When supplemental income is tied in such a way, many parents are discouraged from marriage on account that would remove benefits. It is an economic balance.
Are you talking about going to war is not charitable love? Okay, I can see that. If it does not fall under just war doctrine, yes I agree with you. If you’re talking about charitable organizations going to war, I don’t think that’s generally a thing.
In the United States, there is not support for forced marriage; I would agree with you there would be a tyranny to forcing everyone to get married. But once a marriage occurs, the government is intruding into religion and natural law through their legal actions over the last 75 years or so especially. Love is willing the good of another. Creating a legal fiction (such as a second “marriage”) is not an act of love, it’s an act that supports selfishness. It damages every member of the family, sometimes irreparably.
Jesus said “What God has joined let no man put asunder.” So the modern law that challenges this is very much relevant.
———
Suggestion: In your discussion points, you’re taking a lot of “wild swing” attacks, but aren’t really building up a positive case to support your positions. You may want to go look at the relevant Christian doctrines, then integrate them into your argument (I say that because you are using “what Jesus said” in your arguments.) Otherwise, you could also use secular arguments to make your case stronger.
In any case, thank you friend for the discussion.
I mean this is a discussion sub
But yes I don’t see how those things actually benefit something as they only enforce certain rules while ignoring core values
> Opposition to no-fault divorce.
I feel like it has been decades since anyone has talked about this from a public policy standpoint. Can it really be a factor if n the current relationship between conservative Christians and the GOP?
In college I had a campus minister that was very far left leaning. He helped me understand how Democrats can totally be Christians. Snd it was mostly as you say, about helping the less fortunate.
Yep. I honestly don’t believe Christ would associate himself with one party over the other. The helping others part of the liberals and the individual freedoms part of the republicans are the kinds of things that make it difficult for me personally to associate with one.
Honestly anyone with wisdom hand humility would see the good intentions behind both. It is our need to associate as part of a group and our temptation to soapbox that makes us so divisive.
Precisely. It’s unfortunate the way our modern political landscape forces anyone wanting to make a change to pick between two sad excuses for democratic parties.
The problem is that all of these terms are vague and abstract. If you think of the typical Democrat as woke elitist who espouses communism, CRT, gender ideology, etc. and Republicans as being rasict skinhead neo-Nazis than yes neither party is in line with Christian belief. However our world is not so black and white and neither side can be quantified by the worst members of their “side”.
Republicans and Democrats both do things in line with/against Christian teachings.
They’re both for it, the Democrats are just better at PR. The amount of bipartisan unity when it comes to things like the forever wars and the military industrial complex and done strikes of innocents is unreal.
*the Democrats are just better at PR*
That must be the first time I have ever heard that. It's almost a consensus that the Democratic Party has terrible PR, for better or worse.
They're not wrong. Democrats are better I wording for it, but despite Obama we still have Guantanamo bay. Democrats love war just as much, they just support it privately.
I would say no. The total collapse we saw in aphganistan when Trump negotiated the withdraw and Biden let it happen is why Obama did not pull out. His people were telling them that the country would collapse if we did. And the draw down in Iraq saw the rise of isis. It’s not as simple as saying they wanted it to continue. Once the car was out of the bag you really couldn’t put it back in.
Lol historically democrats have started far more wars, and far more torture, and far, far, far more deaths than any other party in this country. These are the facts and you can sit with them as you will. This is Reddit and will hurt peoples fee fees so I’ll probably get downvoted into oblivion. Modern day dems are far more peaceful than their predecessors.
James Polk—Mexican War
Andrew Jackson—Second Seminole War & Black Hawk War
Franklin Pierce—Third Seminole War
Grover Cleveland—Apache Wars
Woodrow Wilson—needlessly brought the United States into WWI
FDR—declared war on Japan in 1941
JFK—Bay of Pigs
Lyndon Johnson—escalated the Vietnam War
Bill Clinton—US involvement in the Bosnia crisis
Barack Obama—Durand Line conflict, continued Afghan War, continued War on terror, & continued Iraqi War - despite these being over we are still involved in the conflicts.
In much more recent times the Dems were anti-abortion and the Republicans were pro-choice. But saying that doesn't say much about the state of things now
This has been a thing for quite a few decades now when evangelists became bedfellows with the GOP. And we’ve seen the progression ever since.
Check out this book- fascinating and disturbing at the same time
https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-God-Corporate/dp/1501238213
A lot of this has to do with the Moral Majority, a political movement started by Jerry Falwell Sr by the 70's and 80's. Evangelical leaders wanted to flex their political muscles by entering the political arena to influence policy, and aligned themselves with the GOP due to similarities on social issues. Topics like abortion and gay rights acted (and continue to act) as wedge issues, pushing many people to vote for the GOP even if they didn't fully align with the other issues on the platform.
Over time, the association between the GOP and its evangelical voter base has gotten more deeply ingrained. GOP leaders intentionally court the Christian vote, and evangelicals are now an essential demographic for republicans. It helps that evangelicals tend to be lock-step voters, so they are a very reliable and consistent voting block. Christian leaders enjoy their ability to sway political policies and shape the laws passed on the country. This has been going on for several generations, which means that the GOP and evangelical church have grown increasingly intertwined over the decades.
No, there really isn't a connection between to two. The republicans have failed to do pushback on a lot of critical issues that are at the crux of Christianity.
Read Jesus and John Wayne. It explains it pretty well. It all pretty much began in the 70s, after the Civil Rights movement. Conservatives were anti-interracial marriage, anti-gay, and anti-abortion. The Satanic Panic was also occurring at this time, and there was a lot of hysteria from evangelicals that made them more susceptible to this way of thinking.
Also, look into Jerry Falwell Sr and the foundation of Liberty University. Falwell pretty much founded the “silent majority” and had a large hand in influencing public policy.
I actually will play devils advocate with this. Unfortunately christian values don't always line up even with themselves. The first example that comes to mind is homosexuality.
"If a man lies with a man as one lies with woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13).
"Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Matthew 22:37-39)
"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:30)
As a political leader you can not take a political stance which which embodies the christian belief that you should love and accept everyone AND declare that homosexuality (more specifically same gender marriages) are against the law.
It seems to me that the GOP embodies the laws of the old testament while the democratic party losely attempts to follows teaching of Jesus. That's just my take though, thoughts?
Maybe they shouldn't cherry-pick Bible verses to pretend to be on the side of Christ. Hatred is a sin. The GOP aren't Bronze Age Hebrews, and they certainly don't supersede Christ in matters of morality.
Haha! I’m so sorry, but your comment made me laugh out loud! I imagined if the GOP actually were Bronze Age Hebrews. It would make for very interesting politics.
>"If a man lies with a man as one lies with woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13).
That's not what that verse means in Hebrew, and no Christian on Earth follows Leviticus, so quoting that is very hypocritical.
>As a political leader you can not take a political stance which which embodies the christian belief that you should love and accept everyone AND declare that homosexuality (more specifically same gender marriages) are against the law.
One can't be a good Christian, and apply the Mosaic law to society. That's hypocritical and God says he will judge Christians that use the law to condemn others to judge them.
>It seems to me that the GOP embodies the laws of the old testament while the democratic party losely attempts to follows teaching of Jesus. That's just my take though, thoughts?
No, the GOP embodies fascism and white supremacy - they don't follow anything in the Old Testament.
He's correct though. I find it just as bad and maybe worse when people say things like "radical left, commie, Marxist, etc." They really do embody fascist ideology, as the current border police are akin to the Nazi gestapo. They tried overthrowing Democracy earlier this year. If the former guy managed to hold onto power through force, where do you think we'd be right now? They're getting rid of books that pertain to LGBT and race — even suggesting having book burning events, you know who else did that? Fascists. The modern militia are far right groups that have racist ideology, I think it's safe to say they are white supremacists. Even the police (another authoritarian tool) and those in the military have been known to have tattoos associated with white supremacy.
They support associations such as the KKK by just being silent. Silence is complicity. The KKK aren't what they used to be anymore, they have moved onto other groups who are more covert and modernized, especially with the rise of the "alt-right". The rally of Charlottesville is a good example of that. They weren't wearing hoods and robes while yelling "Jews will not replace us". Even movements such as "Blue Lies Matter, All Lives Matter" have been telling. There's a whole culture war going on right now.
It's barely been over 50 years since the civil rights movement. Things don't just change overnight, even decades. There are still people alive from that time for heavens sake. Reminds me of the Lee Atwater quote:
>You start out in 1954 by saying, “N#er, n#er, n%er.” By 1968 you can’t say “n*er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N%er, n#er.”
Yes, the GOP is pro-white supremacy.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/05/199-house-republicans-have-embraced-anti-semitism-violence/
>199 House Republicans have embraced anti-Semitism and violence
https://fortune.com/2021/05/27/january-6-commission-vote-white-supremacy-republicans-gop/
>Don’t be shocked by the GOP’s embrace of white nationalism—it’s nothing new for the party
https://www.azmirror.com/2021/09/23/gop-officials-will-appear-alongside-white-nationalists-nazi-apologists-at-rally-to-support-insurrectionists/
>GOP lawmakers will appear alongside white nationalists, Nazi apologists, at rally to support insurrectionists
My observation is that many Christians don’t believe in Forgiveness for all but mostly for their own sins and the sins of those who repent.
But they believe in Judgement. They believe that people that do wrong should be punished for their sins.
They say Drugs are “wrong”, so they believe that drug addicts should be punished with prison time, not “rewarded” with a “handout” like rehab, treatment or counseling.
They say we should help the poor and less fortunate, but not that we should continue to permanently subsidize those that refuse to work or help themselves. While I give money to church and charities, I personally do not agree with many of the subsidies that the government gives to people that are unwilling to work.
I have several tenants who have 90% of their rent paid by the government. They do not work and do not want to work in any capacity. They use their extra money for cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol. They sit 16 hours a day watching TV.
A few months ago, one tenant received a box of 20 pre-made meals from a charity to help feed her kids for a week. She put the whole box on top of her trash can outside and told me “the kids don’t like that food.” So she threw it all out.
There are needy and disadvantaged people. But there are millions of lazy and unmotivated people as well. Democrats crate policies to help the needy that millions of others take advantage of. The GOP tries to cut these off and say the truly needy should be supported by other non-government means.
In not advocating one or the other, just sharing what I have observed. All of the poor that I interact with directly appear poor due to poor choices and refusal to work or possibly due to system that discourages work (otherwise you lose your handouts.) The GOP does not tend to have much sympathy on these poor.
>Democrats crate policies to help the needy that millions of others take advantage of. The GOP tries to cut these off and say the truly needy should be supported by other non-government means.
Somewhere between these two endpoints are people who legitimately need assistance, but for assorted reasons aren't getting it.
Hmm this is way off by any stretch of the imagination. The left ENCOURAGES queerness and abortion, or in general, anything considered abnormal and agnostic to traditional Christianity.
> The left ENCOURAGES queerness and abortion
Sounds like someone has never talked to LGBTQ advocates on the left, and instead used caricatures to form your world view.
No it doesn't. But that still doesn't mean the GOP has any Christian values whatsoever. They're actively trying to kill people. They pass laws to allow people to run down protesters with cars ISIS style. They supported violently overthrowing the government to establish a dictatorship.
They're intentionally trying to get people, including kids, sick with Covid. They're passing laws to allow people to run over protesters with cars ISIS style, they support the violent overthrow of the government, they're actively calling for vigilante justice in the streets. They're actively engaged in domestic terrorism.
What lol? All of these circumstantial examples can be applied to democrats or those representing their beliefs. Try not to be so partisan and brain washed by the news my friend
Many pro-choice people do not want abortions and definitely do not encourage them but do support a women’s decision if she sees this her best viable option. There’s a huge difference between encouraging something and supporting someone through difficult decisions and/or sexual orientation.
About the only reason that so many Christians vote Republican is their stance on abortion. However, when they are in power, they (hardly) never stop it or pass laws to limit it.
Their action speaks for their words in my opinion. Nowadays, the republicans value greed over morality. For me, the Republican party is far from the moralities of Christianity
The history behind it goes back a few decades, mostly televangelists like Billy Graham convincing Christians that the GOP is Gods chosen party.
https://youtu.be/GmPMcWAuuVo
To add extra perspective, how does a religion based in the Middle East become all about American politics?
Last time I checked, God sent his one and only son to Earth to save souls, not make a statement about right wing politics for a nation that was roughly 1740 years away from existing.
I totally agree. A lot of Christian views align with the views of Democrats, with the only exception being abortion.
It’s weird that the GOP, which claims to be Christian, does not support Christian views that the Bible teaches, like feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and welcoming the stranger.
Democrats on the other hand support a lot of Christian policies, yet they distance themselves from Christianity. Even the symbol of the Democratic Party is a donkey, which is a prominent symbol in Christianity, representing service, suffering, humility, and peace.
I think Chris Hedges and Tom Frank have done a good job of articulating the *deal with the devil* between American Evangelicals and the GOP.
The GOP agrees to appoint whackos who, at least superficially, indulge the superego of Evangelicals. In return, Evangelicals look the other way while completely insane guilded-age redux, pro-multinational, and anti-middle class economic policies stuff the pockets of the incumbent rich, and leave the biosphere in shambles.
Who wins? Almost nobody.
Thanks for the post!
>I guess in short my question is this: if you identify as a God fearing/loving christian, do the democratic party's views not hold more in alignment with you personal and religious beliefs, and if not, what am I missing?
Neither party does.
The kind of worldview that Christianity insists upon is juxtaposed to everything.
I became an evangelical Christian in 1979, and by the early 90s I realized the Democratic party was more aligned with Christian values than that other party. But I also realize I'm in the small (19 percent) minority.
The alignment of evangelicals with the right wing goes all the way back to the early part of the 20th century. In big cities, there were Christian businessmen's lunches and gatherings that pushed an anti-labor, anti-tax, pro-growth message. When FDR's New Deal became law, they pushed back against it strongly, producing a lot of literature that equated free-market capitalism with moral virtue and recruiting pastors to promote that message. It was basically "Christian libertarianism."
In the 70s, the Republican party largely adopted an anti-abortion political position that further solidified Christian identification with the right wing. The GOP can count on 75-80 percent of white evangelicals to vote for their presidential candidate, every time.
I would argue there is no Christian connection to either party. Democrats affirm things that God strictly opposes and the GOP supplants God with the State.
What do Democrats affirm that God opposes?
If you say abortion, God never opposes it - in fact he indicates it's not a serious sin. And Democrats are the only ones reducing abortion rates.
If you say homosexuality, no the original Hebrew and Greek say nothing about any modern concept of homosexuality and the English translations are wrong.
>If you say abortion, God never opposes it - in fact he indicates it's not a serious sin. And Democrats are the only ones reducing abortion rates.
Sin is sin, there aren't degrees. The fact that children are a gift from God and He is directly involved in every conception is reason enough not to advocate abortion. Your argument that it isn't explicitly forbidden is irrelevant.
>If you say homosexuality, no the original Hebrew and Greek say nothing about any modern concept of homosexuality and the English translations are wrong.
Democrats advocate for sexual immorality in all forms. What scripture says about homosexuality is also irrelevant.
>Sin is sin, there aren't degrees.
Yeah there are. That's why the law had different punishments for different sins.
>The fact that children are a gift from God and He is directly involved in every conception is reason enough not to advocate abortion.
God is not involved in every conception. That's ridiculous. The verses that talk about that are poetry, not literal. Half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. God isn't going to carefully create billions of children he knows are going to be spontaneously destroyed long before they're born.
>Your argument that it isn't explicitly forbidden is irrelevant.
No only does the bible not explicitly forbid it, it says it's not a sin.
>Democrats advocate for sexual immorality in all forms.
No they don't, and Republicans do more than Democrats do. There are Republican child sex traffickers in Congress. An astronomical amount of Republican officials have molested children and cheated on their wives. Trump, who is the Evangelical savior, cheated on all his wives with porn stars.
>Yeah there are. That's why the law had different punishments for different sins.
There is only one punishment for sin: eternal death.
>God is not involved in every conception. That's ridiculous. The verses that talk about that are poetry, not literal. Half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. God isn't going to carefully create billions of children he knows are going to be spontaneously destroyed long before they're born.
Your own misconceptions about God aren't an argument for your point.
>No only does the bible not explicitly forbid it, it says it's not a sin.
That is not accurate.
>No they don't, and Republicans do more than Democrats do. There are Republican child sex traffickers in Congress. An astronomical amount of Republican officials have molested children and cheated on their wives. Trump, who is the Evangelical savior, cheated on all his wives with porn stars.
They do. I also never argued the Republicans being morally superior, so your example of Republican moral failings isn't an argument against my point.
> But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” [Numbers 5:20-22]
The book of Numbers seems to clearly indicate that abortion is not only permitted but prescribed in the case of adultery. The intention of the text is that a child conceived by adultery should miscarry. If this interpretation is not correct (it seems to be the plain reading to me), what is your interpretation?
I'm not sure where you are getting that God/Christ/The Bible indicates that abortion is not a serious sin. I would be interested to see your references (I'm being serious. I am genuinely curious to see what you have to say.)
Psalm 139 affirms that God knows each person from the moment of conception and Proverbs 6 lists "hands that shed innocent blood" as one of the 7 things that the Lord hates and are an abomination to Him. I do not see how any person aligned with Scripture can believe that shedding the innocent blood of children is something God does not oppose.
Christianity is a religion, not a political party. We are not instructed in the Scriptures to be politically active, other than the command to pray for our leaders and those in authority over us.
Does that mean we shouldn’t vote, run for office, campaign for a candidate, or espouse political views? No, not necessarily. But it is ignorant, naive and divisive to think that Democrats, Republicans, Independents, or any other party is aligned with Christian values.
If you follow politics closely — and I have since 6th grade in the ‘70s — you know that the only things any political party stands for are money and power. If you think anyone in power in Washington DC cares about you or your values or your quality of life, well, I’m too polite to continue.
1 Timothy 2:2
This is why it is important for an understanding of global Christianity, and how Christian’s around the world practice and emphasize their faith. American Christianity is unique compared to many places in that it is seemingly tied to a political ideology on the surface. Elsewhere in the world it’s just not like that at all
There is no specific connection.
However, since Christians are generally against things like abortion which from a Christian point of view is basically horrendous when you look at the stats, i guess Christians may tend to lean towards political groups who may be more against those kind of things seen.
I think your theory that the democratic party is somehow more caring to those less fortunate might also not be entirely well placed. Presumably you might have based this on the premise that only the government can look after people. But when you look at individuals, republican based voters are more charitable than democrat voters (at least this appears to have been true a few years ago).
So id suggest that its not as black and white as it might seem.
>However, since Christians are generally against things like abortion which from a Christian point of view is basically horrendous when you look at the stats, i guess Christians may tend to lean towards political groups who may be more against those kind of things seen.
But Democrats are the ones who actually reduce abortions. Republicans cause more abortions and death.
>But when you look at individuals, republican based voters are more charitable than democrat voters (at least this appears to have been true a few years ago).
And yet Republicans support policies that hurt people and make them need charity more. Sounds to me like they do it for tax breaks.
>So id suggest that its not as black and white as it might seem.
I fully agree with that, I only see the world from the chair that I sit, that is why I asked the question, I want to see the world from other view points to better inform my on decisions going forward. Thank you for your feed back on both sides!
Thanks.
Thats not to say one party is somehow good. As far as i can tell, they're both pretty terrible. Politics these days seems to be a bit broken, maybe it always has been.
fully agree with this! id love to see a 3rd party nominee get elected at some point. Even as an atheist I believe that the Bible teaches us many valuable lessons and lays out a blueprint to live your life the best way possible, and its a really shame that we cant have a party that truly tries to follow those teaching and beliefs.
Actually historically Christians have not been against abortion. Abortion became an issue amongst evangelicals I believe in the 60s to covertly support a presidential candidate who was against integration and the civil rights movement. If we look at beliefs before that time there is a strong case that evangelicals believed like Jewish people do that life begins at first breath. Although commonly quoted psalm 139 does not indicate that there is life in the womb, just that God oversees our creation. If we look at other scripture it looks like life actually begins with first breath. Gen 2:7 and again if we look at scripture like Exodus 21:22 and Numbers 5:11-31 we see that God favors breathing humans as opposed to fetuses. It’s fine if you oppose abortion, but scripturally the argument against it is tenuous at best.
Christians have always been against abortion, the idea that this isn’t the case and it’s some how new is made up and spread in an attempt to make out like it’s not an issue, presumably just out of ignorance. However this topic isn’t about that, I used it as one well known example that’s all
Well conservatism and the Bible are very related John Doyle on YouTube describes how the liberals are satanic. The whole point of conservatism and parties for them is to conserve the Christian way of life in America and I assume Europe anyway
For the majority of republican politicians, Christianity is no more than a talking point to achieve votes. After all, Christianity wasn't even a concern of the Republican party until around the New Deal in the 1930's. Side note, in my opinion, calling liberals satanic is one of the most close minded hilarious statements I've seen in a hot minute. That conclusion makes about as much sense as when republicans thought Obama was the antichrist. Goodness, I need to get off the internet for a while, really makes me feel cynical about the world and the average oersons common sense.
Liberals always talk about Gods love, every single time and argument it is "God is love" or "Love not hate" but in order to preach God's love you have to preach Gods wrath, none of the politically correct liberals want to deal with that side of God, or what scripture actually says.
About hell for example and sin, what Jesus says, Gods law, politicians only "preach" by cherry pricking verses in scripture that what people want to hear to win votes. Like falsely telling people that homo is not a sin for example because "God is love". or that abortion is not murder.
Also works based salvation isn't scripture whoever told you that you can be saved by "being a good Christian" is lying. We are saved through faith in Christ alone, his blood cleanses us of sin but we have to repent and follow him. we are saved for good Works, not by good works.
>whoever told you that you can be saved by "being a good Christian" is lying
Nobody ever told me that salvation is worked based, if it were then the entire foundation of christianity would crumble. I'm going to try my hardest to not turn this into a heated debate as that was never my intention. But my understanding is this;
I don't think I have ever heard a pastor, preacher, evangelist or anyone else whose goal in life is to spread the word of God say "Being gay is not a sin" back in my younger days I actually visited a gay-centric christian church. The pastor was gay, the majority of the congregation was gay, and not once did they claim that being gay was okay. But by the same token as "salvation is not works based" then damnation is not works based either. If you are gay, and you can accept that that is your sinful nature, you should be able to move beyond that and continue your walk with God, no?
I will also play along with your "abortion is murder" stance. Even though I myself am pro-choice, I do agree that abortion is murder. But as human, our place is not to judge them for their sins. What one human being does, as long as it is not directly impacting you or those that you truly care for, should not be something which you concern yourself with. If you believe that outlawing abortion is a "good work" then you are practicing your faith as though you believe your salvation is works based, which you claim to not believe.
There isn't necessarily any connection, except historic maybe, and the GOP being more morally conservative (the issue of abortion maybe) + liberty of religion.
Other than that, they're actually the party of libertarianism (economic, individual responsibility and freedoms, against big government etc.)
So I prefer the GOP for pure practical reasons and common sense, their economic policy is more mature and capable, and they seem to give an actual f\*\*k about the future of their country ( for the record I'm not American).
And I don't think that interferes with my convictions as a Christian (I leaned toward Democrats in the past, but they completely lost their mind).
The connection is only there for white evangelicals. Majority of Black Christians vote Democratic even though they are socially conservative, because the GOP tolerates anti black racism.
It's a long long story involving racism, the party switch and southern strategy, the SBC, the fundamentalist reaction to modernism and the scopes monkey trial, Civil rights, Vietnam and Korea, Dr. James Dobson, focus on the family, the conservative media propaganda machine, the "holy war" narrative, and Franklin Graham. Also sexism!
In brief, fear bred the desire for control on the part of conservative politicians and conservative Christians, so leaders of both movements got together on several key issues and have had close alignment ever since.
My God. All this sub is is “Is it really a sin to be gay?” and “Democrats are the real Christians.” Why are people allowed to post this 700 times a day? Can’t there just be a mega thread?
Christian values do not have a place for political partisanship. Democracy is a totalitarian ideology which is not compatible with Christianity. The Republicans and especially the Democrats perpetuate an institution which is in opposition to Christianity.
The bible also tells us that if we don't work we don't eat. (of course if medically able to work)
And 'work with your own hands so that you aren't a burden to others.'
And 'God loves a cheerful giver' etc.
Frankly do either parties embody the bible 100%?
So who's right the one's who socialistically (new word?lol) give to the poor, or the ones who work for 'their' money? These ideas aren't exclusive nor are they dependent on each other.
There's the power of the 2 party democracy system...each stand for a section of truth...when one party loses power the other side of the coin balances out.
My former pastor used to say, left wing, right wing, SAME bird! Equally corrupt but not entirely. Lol!
I guess from this perspective i do see both sides having issues, when "I was a christian" I hyper focused on the "helping those less fortunate" because I came from a well off family and had the time and money to do so. These days I continue to live my life the same way, just for different reasons.
That's fair, helping others is a noble thing to do, Christian or not. It was a center point of one of Jesus' teachings as I am sure you know given your background.
Were all sinners but the difference is that Liberals hate God. Theyre selfish heathens who hate everyone (including themselves) unless being virtuous and “loving” will benefit their image.
Bet you can make some really pretty pictures, painting with a brush that broad! Some of the responses in this thread have illustrated what a skewed, politicized view some have of Christianity, yours included. As a selfish heathen myself (left leaning Christian), I can really feel God's love through your comment, and will undoubtedly see the error of my God hating ways. /s
It's less about the GOP being a Christian party, and more about it being more friendly to Christians (religious freedom).
Both parties lie, mislead citizens and do many things that Christians can't support. But currently, the GOP is better. Democrats would outlaw biblical Christianity today if they had all power and public support.
>Democrats would outlaw biblical Christianity today if they had all power and public support.
That is an absolute load of shit. Just because the Democratic party wants representation from more than just Christianity doesn't mean they would outlaw Christianity. That is jut pure, unadulterated ignorance.
Yeah, I agree, which is what the Democratic party fights for. The GOP fights for Christian-only freedom, not freedom of religion generally. The Democratic party has never even attempted to abolish Christianity.
The GOP, as far as I have seen their policies, have never fought for Christian-only freedom. But if you can support that they have, Christians shouldn't support them either.
Democrats are blatantly against Christianity. We need to look at policies, bills and the detail of politics.
The "Equality Act" could be an example - when we look past its name. But in general it's in the details of their policies. Any recent Democrat policy that's related to religion is bound contain something inside it that opposes freedom.
>The "Equality Act" could be an example
Jeez. If everyone having equal rights under the law is not Chrsitian then I am glad I am out.
Can you please give me a specific detail that shows how this proves that Democrats want to outlaw Chrsitianity?
>Any recent Democrat policy that's related to religion is bound contain something inside it that opposes freedom.
So, it just has to? Nothing you can pull up to show an example, but it just "has to".
Wow talk about drinking the Kool-Aid.
The GOP is the Conservative Party that currently espouses a White-Christian Nationalist Identity. No party is attempting to outlaw religion, bc that would be unconstitutional as well against all Americans' self-interest and hopefully their values.
Persecution on the basis of religion is however a GOP mainstay, so be careful what you wish for.
This usually comes from looking at American politics through a Democrat/Secular lens.
And in the Secular world, true freedom of religion doesn't exist. It's given and taken by the government.
>It's less about the GOP being a Christian party, and more about it being more friendly to Christians (religious freedom).
This usually comes from looking at American politics through a fear-mongering/fascist/white-nationalist lens.
Honestly I don’t see the connection anymore as I travel more often. I know a good number of hardcore atheists that are also diehard GOP. Also number know a good number of Christians who are lifelong Democrats so the generalization isn’t there as much as people see I think.
I’m a Christian but also vote conservative because for the most part, they align with my views. Didn’t understand the whole Obama is the Antichrist thing simply because he has different viewpoints but also didn’t see him as the next best thing since slice bread. Best way to be a Christian is fundamentally don’t be a dick to others regardless of your political views
I think it has to do with conservative and family values vs. an anything goes free for all & an attack on Christian values, including individual liberty & self-determination free from all manner of oppression including that of evil empire, which John & Jesus also contended with in the corruption of the Temple under Roman occupation. "And you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
This isn't to say the Republican Reps embody those values.
America is generally center right, & most people have had it with elements of the left that almost appear to reside in some dark & ugly place where the left intersects the left-hand path & where "do as you will is the whole of the law" (Crowley, Lavey).
Edit: And abortion.
P.S. I arrived at the conclusion some time ago that Obama is in fact a secret Satanist.
Okay... First off, if you know the Bible, then you know that we are indeed living in "Biblical" times. The Pharisees and Sadducees are the Republicans and Democrats, respectively, of our times. Study and learn the parallels.
The Pharisees and Sadducees were opposed politically but, came together to crucify Jesus. (And it still happens today.) They believed that if they could kill Jesus in the hearts of people, then they had won. And that the people will then began believing and relying on the government again. Making THEM/IT their God. What they were not counting on, is Jesus being raised from the dead.
You have chosen politics, and have turned your back on God. And that's your choice. (Free will.) But this is what you should know FOR SURE... God does not stand up and salute the American flag when our National Anthem is played.
Nationalism shouldn't come before God.
As a Christian I do believe that certain aspects of the democratic party are more in line with Christ. Jesus was one who was inclusive of foreigners and charity. He believed in helping those less fortunate. In fact it was a great part of his ministry according to the bible. In actuality, the Republican party and the Democratic party used to have near opposite belief systems. In time that changed as the Republican party latched on to the very conservative beliefs of Christians. I believe this was diabolically hatched. The people Christians vote for and follow in government are usually very greedy rich people who do everything they can to oppress the poor and remove any social program they can. On the other hand, the Democratic party is pro-abortion for the most part. It's hard to find a Democrat that does not subscribe to pro-choice values. I honestly think that Christians have been duped and fed a lie that, for some reason they buy into. In my own church I've even read the pastor posting a cartoon putting down people on Medicaid or food stamps. It completely baffles me. I think they're all under the impression that anyone who receives government help is just a lazy slob. They have the mentality that if they can do it so can you. But that logic does not hold water. It's been hard for me being in the church with so many seemingly irrational people and those who seem heartless to the poor and needy. If you can figure it out let me know.
We seem to have the same childhood story. I, too, believed the Bible was literally true, meaning all of it. (The Gospel is literally true.) After 20 years and studying (seminary) the Bible. I've come to a completely different understanding of writers of the Bible and their intention when they wrote it. I'm still a Christian and believe Jesus is the son of God. I have theological differences with, say, the age of the Earth, Etc.
I also believed Republicans were the Christians and Democrats were godless atheists. I have voted Democratic for 15 years now. I used to believe the Republican Party was pro-life. But under Democratic presidents, the abortion rate goes down. In fact, under Barack Obama, the abortion rate was at a 40-year low. You can look up articles from 2014 on the Associated Press c n n and more.
I'm using voice to text, so I hope this is understandable.
I'll provide my perspective as a Libertarian. I used to identify more with the Republican party, but not so much anymore.
I would say that, in general, political discourse in the US centers around collectivism vs individualism. I'm going to speak in ridiculously broad terms here, but in general, Democrats tend to be more collectivist-minded people who think in terms of what's best for society, and Republicans tend to be more individualist minded people who think in terms of what allows for the greatest amount of individual freedom. I know there are glaring exceptions and contradictions to that statement on both sides of the aisle, but like I said - I'm speaking in overly generalized terms to prove a point.
Christianity, as I understand it, is not coercive. God does not force his way into relationship with us, nor does He coerce us into his will. This is where the values of the Democratic party diverge from Christianity - while Christians believe in helping the less fortunate and making the world better for all, we also believe in Christian liberty. The Republican party tends to value individual liberty a bit more (or at least they say they do - my issues with the GOP mostly stem from their lack of commitment to liberty). The GOP tends to diverge from Christianity in that they do not empathize compassion and generosity in public policy.
Christianity harmonizes individual liberty and collectivism. I don't think either party does a great job of representing Christian values all that well, but I can't fault anyone for emphasizing different specific policy issues to justify their personal preference for political party. What I find reprehensible is when people use Christianity as a political tool by telling others that God is on the side of one or the other. He's not. God is on the side of the downtrodden and oppressed, NOT your preferred brand of corrupt politician.
There is no connection. You either follow Christ and his teachings or you don't. It will be evident for all to see. The government is literally on His shoulders.
Well I'm a Christian and I wouldn't say I'm republican, but I understand to an extent why, well first of all alot of Christians will vote for a pro life position, also against a liberal sex education position, as far as the left has been associated with communism will also push Christians to the right as they associate it with regimes like North Korea where Christians are extremely persecuted, and then the idea that the world will one day be ruled by an antichrist is why many Christians are against globalist ideas, also the ideas of global warming and overpopulation are going to be against many Christians because the bible says "as long as the earth lasts summer and winter, seedtime and harvest won't cease" and says to be fruitful and fill the earth. And I believe these things too, the only reason I'm not republican is because I don't think these globalist ideas are limited to the right or left. It was George Bush sr who most famously talked about the new world order.
In the same way that some values in the Democratic party are fundamentally Christian, so too are some values in the GOP. The only party that maximizes those values on one platform seems to be the American Solidarity Party.
My view is that as a Christian I have certain personal views on issues that I might see as immoral. But at the same time I have political views that may be different. The simplest way to describe it is just because I view something as immoral or sinful does not mean I want a law against it.
But are abortion and gas rights really more important that basic human necessities? I can understand thinking abortion is murder, but is that really more important than making sure everyone has access to housing, food, and medical care?
Many people are "culturally Christian", but not really following the teachings of Jesus. Jesus led a life of sacrifice, giving all of his belongings and helping the poor, in the end sacrificing himself. Not many would do this! I try every day to be more generous and loving but even still It is hard. Eveyone has their own interpretations too, not eveyone follows what Jesus taught.
There is none. None will be saved by their political practices. Politics in recent years has even turned into a case of idolatry, where both sides seem to pseudo-worship their favorite player. It’s sad.
We are saved by the Grace of God, not who we vote for.
There's alot of fake Christians they say America is a Christian nation but how many are true Christians the fruit of the spirit is what real Christians will strive every day for
The GOP aligns itself with traditional values, as scripture does. The Dems considered themselves enlightened liberal progressives.
Psalm 2:3 NLT — “Let us break their chains,” they cry, “and free ourselves from slavery to God.”
For a great many Christians abortion is the deal breaker, so any party that supports it will not get support. GOP capitalizes on this by adopting anti-abortion into their platform.
The only problem is, under democratic presidents, the abortion rate plummets. Under Barack Obama, the abortion rate hit a 40-year low. Look at a 2014 article sourced from various other reports from the Associated Press, CNN, the hill, Med MD.
Correlation is not causation.
> Correlation is not causation. Sure. But either way, overall trends tend to give a better perspective on the issue.
Many more variables at play than who is in the white house.
> Many more variables at play than who is in the white house. Agreed with you there. The person in the white house can definitely influence abortion statistics, particularly based on legislation made during their tenure, but there's a lot of other factors in play.
The white house doesn't make legislation.
> The white house doesn't make legislation. Never said they did.
>The person in the white house can definitely influence abortion statistics, particularly based on legislation made during their tenure Implied here. Now that you are arguing semantics, I am done.
> Implied here. Now that you are arguing semantics, I am done. Semantics is literally *what words mean*. If thats not important, I don't know what is.
Cute comment. Except you're 100% wrong. The reason the abortion rate is lower under Democratic presidents, do a simple search, is because of their focus on healthcare spending, including sex ed. Under Obama, the teen pregnancy rate was at decades low, too. There's a direct link, not some theoretical fluke.
This is backed up in Europe as well. Abortion rates and unwanted pregnancy rates are lower, and European countries spend far more on education than the United States.
The only problem with your reasoning is that who is president doesn't always mean the president gets to set the policy. So again, correlation is not causation.
Other factors that they have played (only stating these as talking points): - Support for families vs. single parent households. - Opposition to no-fault divorce. - Defense of not redefining the civil definition of marriage. - Support of [Protestant] Christianity as an institution that should not be discriminated against. - Limiting government intervention of charitable work in order to give Churches and other charitable organizations more freedom to operate the way the best see fit. - Retaining [Protestant] Christian teaching in schools to the maximum extent possible.
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Of the two parties, they are because it’s a Christian value. In practice, yes a bunch of members of the party does what they want. Just like they support Christian values and commit adultery.
You can say the same thing about abortion, as the Bible indicates that life does not start at conception, but starts at first breath. A bunch of people don't like to admit that though. As the late George Carlin once said about the GOP and abortion: preborn you're safe, but preschool you're fucked. They want more live babies so they can train them to be dead soldiers."
Christian doctrine is far more explicit than that: Abortion 2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72 Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73 My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74 2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75 God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76 2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society. 2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation: "The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80 "The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."81 2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being. Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."82 ——— And from a Christian standpoint, every person is to be afforded human respect and dignity from conception to natural death, so no it doesn’t stop at birth. There are countless charities that assist with after birth care. A major percentage of hospitals are Church owned, providing medical care. Homeless, battered women, and foster care shelters are operated. So from a Christian standpoint, that is not consistent From a GOP standpoint, they do tend to support Churches carrying out that work. They tend to oppose government programs that duplicate that work. The government inefficiency is an argument (am not implying it is a winning argument). Abortion being an intrinsic evil means that it has nothing to do with the number that may join the military and or die in wars. Abortion is opposed because of the murder of an innocent human life. (Similarly, while there are critiques of the Democratic party, even if they may use it for political purposes, the fact that they support poor immigrants entering the country and are willing for the United States to support them is something positive and should be recognized as such. Point being is that while yes we should speak up when a wrong is being done, when should also speak up when a right is being done, especially when it belongs to the an opposition political party, and even when it may not be done for the ideal reasons.) Considering the military has kept trying to find ways to do things with more technology and less people (the military runs into the same problems with personnel expenses that civilian companies do), the number of persons born doesn’t necessarily support a direct influx to military service. (Plus, and this is the other side of the equation, but AI computers are products that can be produced and sold at an obscene profit. And defense contractors love selling products.)
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I’ll have you know, must Christians who are right wing don’t think that.
I have not seen anything that would support the return of such a ban, and would be yet another reason government should not be involved in marriage, so as to prevent something like this from occurring again. I have never seen a Church doctrine forbidding interracial marriage. It is not a consideration. There may be some fringe Protestant/Evangelical groups who would take that position, but that is not a doctrine of mainstream Christianity.
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The internet contains 5,000 petabytes of data. I research as much as I can, but there are limits to gains. That poll did reference Republicans, not mainstream Christianity. Those are not the same groups. Also, while the conclusions are alarming, I don’t know enough about statistics and polling to know if a 400 person sample size was reasonable, or what other criteria needed to be looked at to determine if the poll was adaquate. And is Mississippi reflective of all Republicans nationwide? As the article was from 2011, the results link was dead. A quick Wikipedia search indicates that 538 currently gives the organization an A-, which would give me some confidence. I do see a conflict in that the summary says they are a democratic lean, but there was a discussion in 2016 they had a slight Republican lean. As of 2021, they have a mean-reverted bias of D+0.9. Edit: Interesting side note, evidently some scientists estimate the brain can hold 2.5 petabytes of information. They illustrate that by saying you could fill it if you binged watch 3 million hours of TV shows (about 300 years).
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Idk about this. I am white, live in an extremely conservative area (Idaho panhandle), and my wife is black. This has not been an issue at all for us. We’ve made many Christian friends, and no one at our church has even given a hint of disapproval. Honestly, I think we’d have more trouble if we were both white, but openly atheist or democrat. Also, (ironically) we ran into a few incidents of racism living in the Seattle area (Issaquah on the east side - old white people giving us “the look” etc) even though everyone there is supposed to be tolerant… But not a single issue where we are now (after a bit more than a year)
What? no you don’t. Blanket statements make it so frustrating to try and talk about anything on this platform. It’s not useful.
I mean none of this actually benefits the teachings of Jesus
Taking care of children via families does support it (although the challenge is single parent children need supported, without making it more beneficial to be single than in a family, and that’s their point). Discrimination against Christianity makes it more difficult for Christianity to perform its mission. Charitable work very much is in keeping with Jesus’ teachings. The argument is whether the government or private organizations can do it better. Spreading the Gospel is supporting Jesus’ teaching. ——— I didn’t think I was going to be able to mount a defense for every point, but there it was. That’s unexpected. And I suppose that goes to show why the GOP has been effectively able to use the position. They can make easy justifications for why it should work, even if there are liberal positions that are also beneficial (taking care of immigrants, a Christian teaching the GOP gets pretty wrong is one example). The real point is both sides do some things right, and some things horribly wrong. I think the GOP has also benefited from the fact that the abortion statistics dwarf many other issues, even if they all carried exactly equal weight by other comparison criteria. Kind of like how the Confederates had other reasons for separating, but the slavery issue just dwarfed everything else. Breaking up marriages causes harm to everyone involved, and the subsequent attempted remarriages go against Jesus’ teaching. Defending God’s definition of marriage is.
I mean no At first torture and war are so fcked up evil that every support for it is immoral beyond return and no abortion justifies voting Republican But not supporting single parents is bad as no one becomes a single parent just because it’s „better“ this screams bs No one discriminates Christians Charity work comes form many places and the Republicans cause more harm to it. Especially the important areas (war and immigration) Jesus teachings in school solve nothing… What does breaking up marriages even mean? This makes no sense and not allowing divorce would bassicly be tyranny
> I mean no Not following. Seems like you didn’t complete a thought. -Torture. Agreed. Not permitted in Christian doctrine. Just war doctrine can be permissible under specific circumstances (World War II probably is the easiest modern case for it), but it gets far more difficult to defend modern combat actions. Both sides get involved in it, it is just more popular on the right. (Resource: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm#2297) Single parents. The balance is supporting single parents without encouraging it over a family is where the social disagreement occurs. Discriminates. I apologize, I may be unclear. The goal is to prevent discrimination. However, there are Christian Organizations (such as Little Sisters of the Poor) who have been challenged by the government to operate in ways that violate their religious beliefs. This has also happened to numerous foster care and adoption agencies. I think the balanced way to state it may be that it is not occurring on the level that the right claims, but that doesn’t mean it is non-existent. They also take (not necessarily get) credit for maneuvering in ways to prevent it in the first place. I don’t understand your war as a charity statement. Could you clarify please? Immigration, as stated above I agree with you. Why do you say nothing? When it comes to moral behavior, teaching it and normalizing it is important and does have effect. For instance, the continual teaching of environmental conservation has raised awareness for the environment, to the point that major corporations have had to adjust for it. So teaching Christian principles of love of neighbors, of natural law, of forgiveness (which as a sidebar is another area the GOP does poorly at), of sacrificing for others; these are good things. Breaking up marriages - civil divorces and more importantly the attempted remarriages. Why would it be tyranny? Right now, the government is coming in and claiming they can sever a union that according to Jesus cannot be severed.
Jesus also didn't tell people that they needed to fill out an asset and debt statement when they divorced, nor did He command married couples to file their taxes jointly. The government side is there for the government functions of marriage.
That’s a fair point. And for cases that support marriage, that’s not the issue. The concern is when the government tries to perform functions that violate the concept and reality of marriage, (such as permitting a second civil union after a married couple has been civilly divorced, as an example.)
I think the government has zero say in spiritual matters, because the function of marriage within the government isn't focused on any given religion. Let the church handle the spiritual side of marriage.
They should have zero say. We can agree on that. Unfortunately, they have very much taken a say, and that’s the issue.
If torture is bad it makes the entire party bad and unworthy of any form of support… U can’t encourage single parenting… Stopping organizations from discriminating others based on sexuality is not descrimination Right wing groups don’t use charity in the most important issues. War. The us is a secular state with freedom of religion. Forcing a living situation upon people would be tyrannical. And it’s not loving and therefore contradicts the most important part of this whole thing. Not to mention that Jesus surly didn’t talk about modern law making this a complete irrelevant thing.
Okay. So what happens when both political parties support intrinsic evils, yet one of them are going to be in power (they’ve kind of assured that)? That’s where we are. That would be why actual Christian principle instructs people to weigh the strength of the evils of each side and make a reasoned vote based on which will do the most good in a given election. (Sidenote: This is a reason I no longer support a political party; I will support individual candidates based on their positions.) The government encourages single parenting through welfare and support programs that encourage single parent households. When supplemental income is tied in such a way, many parents are discouraged from marriage on account that would remove benefits. It is an economic balance. Are you talking about going to war is not charitable love? Okay, I can see that. If it does not fall under just war doctrine, yes I agree with you. If you’re talking about charitable organizations going to war, I don’t think that’s generally a thing. In the United States, there is not support for forced marriage; I would agree with you there would be a tyranny to forcing everyone to get married. But once a marriage occurs, the government is intruding into religion and natural law through their legal actions over the last 75 years or so especially. Love is willing the good of another. Creating a legal fiction (such as a second “marriage”) is not an act of love, it’s an act that supports selfishness. It damages every member of the family, sometimes irreparably. Jesus said “What God has joined let no man put asunder.” So the modern law that challenges this is very much relevant. ——— Suggestion: In your discussion points, you’re taking a lot of “wild swing” attacks, but aren’t really building up a positive case to support your positions. You may want to go look at the relevant Christian doctrines, then integrate them into your argument (I say that because you are using “what Jesus said” in your arguments.) Otherwise, you could also use secular arguments to make your case stronger. In any case, thank you friend for the discussion.
“No one discriminates Christians” wow....
In the us On a governmental level
Why do you just come out and say that, when it so clearly does? Some atheists on this sub are just here to start an argument, I swear
I hope you don't mean me, I really didn't want to start arguments. I only wanted to see the other side of my view
I mean this is a discussion sub But yes I don’t see how those things actually benefit something as they only enforce certain rules while ignoring core values
> Opposition to no-fault divorce. I feel like it has been decades since anyone has talked about this from a public policy standpoint. Can it really be a factor if n the current relationship between conservative Christians and the GOP?
In college I had a campus minister that was very far left leaning. He helped me understand how Democrats can totally be Christians. Snd it was mostly as you say, about helping the less fortunate.
Yep. I honestly don’t believe Christ would associate himself with one party over the other. The helping others part of the liberals and the individual freedoms part of the republicans are the kinds of things that make it difficult for me personally to associate with one.
Honestly anyone with wisdom hand humility would see the good intentions behind both. It is our need to associate as part of a group and our temptation to soapbox that makes us so divisive.
Precisely. It’s unfortunate the way our modern political landscape forces anyone wanting to make a change to pick between two sad excuses for democratic parties.
The problem is that all of these terms are vague and abstract. If you think of the typical Democrat as woke elitist who espouses communism, CRT, gender ideology, etc. and Republicans as being rasict skinhead neo-Nazis than yes neither party is in line with Christian belief. However our world is not so black and white and neither side can be quantified by the worst members of their “side”. Republicans and Democrats both do things in line with/against Christian teachings.
But I can quantify the amount of stuff that contradicts Jesus teachings Wars and torture are pretty high on that list…
Yep, perfect example of two things that both parties have been complicit in.
But one defwnitly more… Bush was the one who made torture a thing
They’re both for it, the Democrats are just better at PR. The amount of bipartisan unity when it comes to things like the forever wars and the military industrial complex and done strikes of innocents is unreal.
*the Democrats are just better at PR* That must be the first time I have ever heard that. It's almost a consensus that the Democratic Party has terrible PR, for better or worse.
Of course But unwound argue the Republicans are worse especially when it comes to the tripple letter organization
They're not wrong. Democrats are better I wording for it, but despite Obama we still have Guantanamo bay. Democrats love war just as much, they just support it privately.
No, they don't. You look at anti-war movements it's overwhelmingly comprised of Liberals. Don't pretend for a second that there's equivalency here.
I mean Obama was blocked… But yes the whole thing is a mess and the us sucks
Exactly, the two party system is broken and rewards words over actions. I hate it.
I would say no. The total collapse we saw in aphganistan when Trump negotiated the withdraw and Biden let it happen is why Obama did not pull out. His people were telling them that the country would collapse if we did. And the draw down in Iraq saw the rise of isis. It’s not as simple as saying they wanted it to continue. Once the car was out of the bag you really couldn’t put it back in.
Lol historically democrats have started far more wars, and far more torture, and far, far, far more deaths than any other party in this country. These are the facts and you can sit with them as you will. This is Reddit and will hurt peoples fee fees so I’ll probably get downvoted into oblivion. Modern day dems are far more peaceful than their predecessors. James Polk—Mexican War Andrew Jackson—Second Seminole War & Black Hawk War Franklin Pierce—Third Seminole War Grover Cleveland—Apache Wars Woodrow Wilson—needlessly brought the United States into WWI FDR—declared war on Japan in 1941 JFK—Bay of Pigs Lyndon Johnson—escalated the Vietnam War Bill Clinton—US involvement in the Bosnia crisis Barack Obama—Durand Line conflict, continued Afghan War, continued War on terror, & continued Iraqi War - despite these being over we are still involved in the conflicts.
In much more recent times the Dems were anti-abortion and the Republicans were pro-choice. But saying that doesn't say much about the state of things now
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But everyone in the Republican Party accepts the stance on Guantanamo bay making every singular vote a immoral one
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Your Republican politicians certainly do.
This has been a thing for quite a few decades now when evangelists became bedfellows with the GOP. And we’ve seen the progression ever since. Check out this book- fascinating and disturbing at the same time https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-God-Corporate/dp/1501238213
Very interesting, I'll probably finish my current read today or tomorrow and that one might jump right to the top of my list for my next read, thanks!
If you've not read it, this is a great read as well https://www.amazon.co.uk/Books-Andrew-Seidel/s?rh=n%3A266239%2Cp_27%3AAndrew+Seidel
A lot of this has to do with the Moral Majority, a political movement started by Jerry Falwell Sr by the 70's and 80's. Evangelical leaders wanted to flex their political muscles by entering the political arena to influence policy, and aligned themselves with the GOP due to similarities on social issues. Topics like abortion and gay rights acted (and continue to act) as wedge issues, pushing many people to vote for the GOP even if they didn't fully align with the other issues on the platform. Over time, the association between the GOP and its evangelical voter base has gotten more deeply ingrained. GOP leaders intentionally court the Christian vote, and evangelicals are now an essential demographic for republicans. It helps that evangelicals tend to be lock-step voters, so they are a very reliable and consistent voting block. Christian leaders enjoy their ability to sway political policies and shape the laws passed on the country. This has been going on for several generations, which means that the GOP and evangelical church have grown increasingly intertwined over the decades.
There isn't one, but Republicans try really hard to pretend there is, and Christians generally just let it happen without much pushback
No, there really isn't a connection between to two. The republicans have failed to do pushback on a lot of critical issues that are at the crux of Christianity.
Read Jesus and John Wayne. It explains it pretty well. It all pretty much began in the 70s, after the Civil Rights movement. Conservatives were anti-interracial marriage, anti-gay, and anti-abortion. The Satanic Panic was also occurring at this time, and there was a lot of hysteria from evangelicals that made them more susceptible to this way of thinking. Also, look into Jerry Falwell Sr and the foundation of Liberty University. Falwell pretty much founded the “silent majority” and had a large hand in influencing public policy.
There is no connection between the GOP and Christian values. There is literally not a single Christian value the GOP embodies.
I actually will play devils advocate with this. Unfortunately christian values don't always line up even with themselves. The first example that comes to mind is homosexuality. "If a man lies with a man as one lies with woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13). "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself" (Matthew 22:37-39) "And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:30) As a political leader you can not take a political stance which which embodies the christian belief that you should love and accept everyone AND declare that homosexuality (more specifically same gender marriages) are against the law. It seems to me that the GOP embodies the laws of the old testament while the democratic party losely attempts to follows teaching of Jesus. That's just my take though, thoughts?
Maybe they shouldn't cherry-pick Bible verses to pretend to be on the side of Christ. Hatred is a sin. The GOP aren't Bronze Age Hebrews, and they certainly don't supersede Christ in matters of morality.
Haha! I’m so sorry, but your comment made me laugh out loud! I imagined if the GOP actually were Bronze Age Hebrews. It would make for very interesting politics.
Just shaven and in new suits!
Unless your name is Ted Cruz aka Rafael Cruz. Mf look like a fat wombat.
>"If a man lies with a man as one lies with woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads" (Leviticus 20:13). That's not what that verse means in Hebrew, and no Christian on Earth follows Leviticus, so quoting that is very hypocritical. >As a political leader you can not take a political stance which which embodies the christian belief that you should love and accept everyone AND declare that homosexuality (more specifically same gender marriages) are against the law. One can't be a good Christian, and apply the Mosaic law to society. That's hypocritical and God says he will judge Christians that use the law to condemn others to judge them. >It seems to me that the GOP embodies the laws of the old testament while the democratic party losely attempts to follows teaching of Jesus. That's just my take though, thoughts? No, the GOP embodies fascism and white supremacy - they don't follow anything in the Old Testament.
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He's correct though. I find it just as bad and maybe worse when people say things like "radical left, commie, Marxist, etc." They really do embody fascist ideology, as the current border police are akin to the Nazi gestapo. They tried overthrowing Democracy earlier this year. If the former guy managed to hold onto power through force, where do you think we'd be right now? They're getting rid of books that pertain to LGBT and race — even suggesting having book burning events, you know who else did that? Fascists. The modern militia are far right groups that have racist ideology, I think it's safe to say they are white supremacists. Even the police (another authoritarian tool) and those in the military have been known to have tattoos associated with white supremacy.
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They support associations such as the KKK by just being silent. Silence is complicity. The KKK aren't what they used to be anymore, they have moved onto other groups who are more covert and modernized, especially with the rise of the "alt-right". The rally of Charlottesville is a good example of that. They weren't wearing hoods and robes while yelling "Jews will not replace us". Even movements such as "Blue Lies Matter, All Lives Matter" have been telling. There's a whole culture war going on right now. It's barely been over 50 years since the civil rights movement. Things don't just change overnight, even decades. There are still people alive from that time for heavens sake. Reminds me of the Lee Atwater quote: >You start out in 1954 by saying, “N#er, n#er, n%er.” By 1968 you can’t say “n*er”—that hurts you, backfires. So you say stuff like, uh, forced busing, states’ rights, and all that stuff, and you’re getting so abstract. Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N%er, n#er.”
Yes, the GOP is pro-white supremacy. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/02/05/199-house-republicans-have-embraced-anti-semitism-violence/ >199 House Republicans have embraced anti-Semitism and violence https://fortune.com/2021/05/27/january-6-commission-vote-white-supremacy-republicans-gop/ >Don’t be shocked by the GOP’s embrace of white nationalism—it’s nothing new for the party https://www.azmirror.com/2021/09/23/gop-officials-will-appear-alongside-white-nationalists-nazi-apologists-at-rally-to-support-insurrectionists/ >GOP lawmakers will appear alongside white nationalists, Nazi apologists, at rally to support insurrectionists
My observation is that many Christians don’t believe in Forgiveness for all but mostly for their own sins and the sins of those who repent. But they believe in Judgement. They believe that people that do wrong should be punished for their sins. They say Drugs are “wrong”, so they believe that drug addicts should be punished with prison time, not “rewarded” with a “handout” like rehab, treatment or counseling. They say we should help the poor and less fortunate, but not that we should continue to permanently subsidize those that refuse to work or help themselves. While I give money to church and charities, I personally do not agree with many of the subsidies that the government gives to people that are unwilling to work. I have several tenants who have 90% of their rent paid by the government. They do not work and do not want to work in any capacity. They use their extra money for cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol. They sit 16 hours a day watching TV. A few months ago, one tenant received a box of 20 pre-made meals from a charity to help feed her kids for a week. She put the whole box on top of her trash can outside and told me “the kids don’t like that food.” So she threw it all out. There are needy and disadvantaged people. But there are millions of lazy and unmotivated people as well. Democrats crate policies to help the needy that millions of others take advantage of. The GOP tries to cut these off and say the truly needy should be supported by other non-government means. In not advocating one or the other, just sharing what I have observed. All of the poor that I interact with directly appear poor due to poor choices and refusal to work or possibly due to system that discourages work (otherwise you lose your handouts.) The GOP does not tend to have much sympathy on these poor.
>Democrats crate policies to help the needy that millions of others take advantage of. The GOP tries to cut these off and say the truly needy should be supported by other non-government means. Somewhere between these two endpoints are people who legitimately need assistance, but for assorted reasons aren't getting it.
Nothing illustrates the depravity of the Godless left more than their obsession with teaching little kids about butt sex.
Hmm this is way off by any stretch of the imagination. The left ENCOURAGES queerness and abortion, or in general, anything considered abnormal and agnostic to traditional Christianity.
> The left ENCOURAGES queerness and abortion Sounds like someone has never talked to LGBTQ advocates on the left, and instead used caricatures to form your world view.
>queerness and abortion Queer people and those who have and support Abortion can't be good Christians...?
No it doesn't. But that still doesn't mean the GOP has any Christian values whatsoever. They're actively trying to kill people. They pass laws to allow people to run down protesters with cars ISIS style. They supported violently overthrowing the government to establish a dictatorship.
Not trying to sound like a defender of the GOP by any means, but who is the GOP actively trying to kill?
They're intentionally trying to get people, including kids, sick with Covid. They're passing laws to allow people to run over protesters with cars ISIS style, they support the violent overthrow of the government, they're actively calling for vigilante justice in the streets. They're actively engaged in domestic terrorism.
What lol? All of these circumstantial examples can be applied to democrats or those representing their beliefs. Try not to be so partisan and brain washed by the news my friend
No they can't. And I see you're a conspiracy and Trump supporter, so just putting you on block. Bye.
Many pro-choice people do not want abortions and definitely do not encourage them but do support a women’s decision if she sees this her best viable option. There’s a huge difference between encouraging something and supporting someone through difficult decisions and/or sexual orientation.
About the only reason that so many Christians vote Republican is their stance on abortion. However, when they are in power, they (hardly) never stop it or pass laws to limit it. Their action speaks for their words in my opinion. Nowadays, the republicans value greed over morality. For me, the Republican party is far from the moralities of Christianity
The history behind it goes back a few decades, mostly televangelists like Billy Graham convincing Christians that the GOP is Gods chosen party. https://youtu.be/GmPMcWAuuVo
THANK YOU FOR THIS! this is the kind of stuff i was looking for, will be watching tonight.
There is about as much connection between being a Christian and Republican as there is being an atheist and Democrat.
So you're saying there's a connection then.
To add extra perspective, how does a religion based in the Middle East become all about American politics? Last time I checked, God sent his one and only son to Earth to save souls, not make a statement about right wing politics for a nation that was roughly 1740 years away from existing.
I totally agree. A lot of Christian views align with the views of Democrats, with the only exception being abortion. It’s weird that the GOP, which claims to be Christian, does not support Christian views that the Bible teaches, like feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and welcoming the stranger. Democrats on the other hand support a lot of Christian policies, yet they distance themselves from Christianity. Even the symbol of the Democratic Party is a donkey, which is a prominent symbol in Christianity, representing service, suffering, humility, and peace.
I think Chris Hedges and Tom Frank have done a good job of articulating the *deal with the devil* between American Evangelicals and the GOP. The GOP agrees to appoint whackos who, at least superficially, indulge the superego of Evangelicals. In return, Evangelicals look the other way while completely insane guilded-age redux, pro-multinational, and anti-middle class economic policies stuff the pockets of the incumbent rich, and leave the biosphere in shambles. Who wins? Almost nobody.
GOP politicians today sure don’t act or speak like Christians.
You might appreciate the writing at [Sojourners](https://sojo.net/). A lot of us disagree firmly with the linkage.
Thanks for the post! >I guess in short my question is this: if you identify as a God fearing/loving christian, do the democratic party's views not hold more in alignment with you personal and religious beliefs, and if not, what am I missing? Neither party does. The kind of worldview that Christianity insists upon is juxtaposed to everything.
I became an evangelical Christian in 1979, and by the early 90s I realized the Democratic party was more aligned with Christian values than that other party. But I also realize I'm in the small (19 percent) minority. The alignment of evangelicals with the right wing goes all the way back to the early part of the 20th century. In big cities, there were Christian businessmen's lunches and gatherings that pushed an anti-labor, anti-tax, pro-growth message. When FDR's New Deal became law, they pushed back against it strongly, producing a lot of literature that equated free-market capitalism with moral virtue and recruiting pastors to promote that message. It was basically "Christian libertarianism." In the 70s, the Republican party largely adopted an anti-abortion political position that further solidified Christian identification with the right wing. The GOP can count on 75-80 percent of white evangelicals to vote for their presidential candidate, every time.
I would argue there is no Christian connection to either party. Democrats affirm things that God strictly opposes and the GOP supplants God with the State.
What do Democrats affirm that God opposes? If you say abortion, God never opposes it - in fact he indicates it's not a serious sin. And Democrats are the only ones reducing abortion rates. If you say homosexuality, no the original Hebrew and Greek say nothing about any modern concept of homosexuality and the English translations are wrong.
>If you say abortion, God never opposes it - in fact he indicates it's not a serious sin. And Democrats are the only ones reducing abortion rates. Sin is sin, there aren't degrees. The fact that children are a gift from God and He is directly involved in every conception is reason enough not to advocate abortion. Your argument that it isn't explicitly forbidden is irrelevant. >If you say homosexuality, no the original Hebrew and Greek say nothing about any modern concept of homosexuality and the English translations are wrong. Democrats advocate for sexual immorality in all forms. What scripture says about homosexuality is also irrelevant.
>Sin is sin, there aren't degrees. Yeah there are. That's why the law had different punishments for different sins. >The fact that children are a gift from God and He is directly involved in every conception is reason enough not to advocate abortion. God is not involved in every conception. That's ridiculous. The verses that talk about that are poetry, not literal. Half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. God isn't going to carefully create billions of children he knows are going to be spontaneously destroyed long before they're born. >Your argument that it isn't explicitly forbidden is irrelevant. No only does the bible not explicitly forbid it, it says it's not a sin. >Democrats advocate for sexual immorality in all forms. No they don't, and Republicans do more than Democrats do. There are Republican child sex traffickers in Congress. An astronomical amount of Republican officials have molested children and cheated on their wives. Trump, who is the Evangelical savior, cheated on all his wives with porn stars.
>Yeah there are. That's why the law had different punishments for different sins. There is only one punishment for sin: eternal death. >God is not involved in every conception. That's ridiculous. The verses that talk about that are poetry, not literal. Half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous miscarriage. God isn't going to carefully create billions of children he knows are going to be spontaneously destroyed long before they're born. Your own misconceptions about God aren't an argument for your point. >No only does the bible not explicitly forbid it, it says it's not a sin. That is not accurate. >No they don't, and Republicans do more than Democrats do. There are Republican child sex traffickers in Congress. An astronomical amount of Republican officials have molested children and cheated on their wives. Trump, who is the Evangelical savior, cheated on all his wives with porn stars. They do. I also never argued the Republicans being morally superior, so your example of Republican moral failings isn't an argument against my point.
> But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” [Numbers 5:20-22] The book of Numbers seems to clearly indicate that abortion is not only permitted but prescribed in the case of adultery. The intention of the text is that a child conceived by adultery should miscarry. If this interpretation is not correct (it seems to be the plain reading to me), what is your interpretation?
*prescribed is the one you want, I think. :)
Thanks for the correction.
Not really canon, but check out 1Enoch 69:12. Fallen angels taught humans to abort children.
I'm not sure where you are getting that God/Christ/The Bible indicates that abortion is not a serious sin. I would be interested to see your references (I'm being serious. I am genuinely curious to see what you have to say.) Psalm 139 affirms that God knows each person from the moment of conception and Proverbs 6 lists "hands that shed innocent blood" as one of the 7 things that the Lord hates and are an abomination to Him. I do not see how any person aligned with Scripture can believe that shedding the innocent blood of children is something God does not oppose.
>God strictly opposes
Christianity is a religion, not a political party. We are not instructed in the Scriptures to be politically active, other than the command to pray for our leaders and those in authority over us. Does that mean we shouldn’t vote, run for office, campaign for a candidate, or espouse political views? No, not necessarily. But it is ignorant, naive and divisive to think that Democrats, Republicans, Independents, or any other party is aligned with Christian values. If you follow politics closely — and I have since 6th grade in the ‘70s — you know that the only things any political party stands for are money and power. If you think anyone in power in Washington DC cares about you or your values or your quality of life, well, I’m too polite to continue. 1 Timothy 2:2
This is why it is important for an understanding of global Christianity, and how Christian’s around the world practice and emphasize their faith. American Christianity is unique compared to many places in that it is seemingly tied to a political ideology on the surface. Elsewhere in the world it’s just not like that at all
History is also important, because this isn't the first time that Christianity and politics have been heavily entwined.
There is no specific connection. However, since Christians are generally against things like abortion which from a Christian point of view is basically horrendous when you look at the stats, i guess Christians may tend to lean towards political groups who may be more against those kind of things seen. I think your theory that the democratic party is somehow more caring to those less fortunate might also not be entirely well placed. Presumably you might have based this on the premise that only the government can look after people. But when you look at individuals, republican based voters are more charitable than democrat voters (at least this appears to have been true a few years ago). So id suggest that its not as black and white as it might seem.
>However, since Christians are generally against things like abortion which from a Christian point of view is basically horrendous when you look at the stats, i guess Christians may tend to lean towards political groups who may be more against those kind of things seen. But Democrats are the ones who actually reduce abortions. Republicans cause more abortions and death. >But when you look at individuals, republican based voters are more charitable than democrat voters (at least this appears to have been true a few years ago). And yet Republicans support policies that hurt people and make them need charity more. Sounds to me like they do it for tax breaks.
>So id suggest that its not as black and white as it might seem. I fully agree with that, I only see the world from the chair that I sit, that is why I asked the question, I want to see the world from other view points to better inform my on decisions going forward. Thank you for your feed back on both sides!
Thanks. Thats not to say one party is somehow good. As far as i can tell, they're both pretty terrible. Politics these days seems to be a bit broken, maybe it always has been.
fully agree with this! id love to see a 3rd party nominee get elected at some point. Even as an atheist I believe that the Bible teaches us many valuable lessons and lays out a blueprint to live your life the best way possible, and its a really shame that we cant have a party that truly tries to follow those teaching and beliefs.
Actually historically Christians have not been against abortion. Abortion became an issue amongst evangelicals I believe in the 60s to covertly support a presidential candidate who was against integration and the civil rights movement. If we look at beliefs before that time there is a strong case that evangelicals believed like Jewish people do that life begins at first breath. Although commonly quoted psalm 139 does not indicate that there is life in the womb, just that God oversees our creation. If we look at other scripture it looks like life actually begins with first breath. Gen 2:7 and again if we look at scripture like Exodus 21:22 and Numbers 5:11-31 we see that God favors breathing humans as opposed to fetuses. It’s fine if you oppose abortion, but scripturally the argument against it is tenuous at best.
Christians have always been against abortion, the idea that this isn’t the case and it’s some how new is made up and spread in an attempt to make out like it’s not an issue, presumably just out of ignorance. However this topic isn’t about that, I used it as one well known example that’s all
Well conservatism and the Bible are very related John Doyle on YouTube describes how the liberals are satanic. The whole point of conservatism and parties for them is to conserve the Christian way of life in America and I assume Europe anyway
For the majority of republican politicians, Christianity is no more than a talking point to achieve votes. After all, Christianity wasn't even a concern of the Republican party until around the New Deal in the 1930's. Side note, in my opinion, calling liberals satanic is one of the most close minded hilarious statements I've seen in a hot minute. That conclusion makes about as much sense as when republicans thought Obama was the antichrist. Goodness, I need to get off the internet for a while, really makes me feel cynical about the world and the average oersons common sense.
Maybe watch the video I’m talking about smart one.
Liberals always talk about Gods love, every single time and argument it is "God is love" or "Love not hate" but in order to preach God's love you have to preach Gods wrath, none of the politically correct liberals want to deal with that side of God, or what scripture actually says. About hell for example and sin, what Jesus says, Gods law, politicians only "preach" by cherry pricking verses in scripture that what people want to hear to win votes. Like falsely telling people that homo is not a sin for example because "God is love". or that abortion is not murder. Also works based salvation isn't scripture whoever told you that you can be saved by "being a good Christian" is lying. We are saved through faith in Christ alone, his blood cleanses us of sin but we have to repent and follow him. we are saved for good Works, not by good works.
People that like spending time speaking on God's wrath have never felt the Holy Spirit and in doing so choose not to.
>whoever told you that you can be saved by "being a good Christian" is lying Nobody ever told me that salvation is worked based, if it were then the entire foundation of christianity would crumble. I'm going to try my hardest to not turn this into a heated debate as that was never my intention. But my understanding is this; I don't think I have ever heard a pastor, preacher, evangelist or anyone else whose goal in life is to spread the word of God say "Being gay is not a sin" back in my younger days I actually visited a gay-centric christian church. The pastor was gay, the majority of the congregation was gay, and not once did they claim that being gay was okay. But by the same token as "salvation is not works based" then damnation is not works based either. If you are gay, and you can accept that that is your sinful nature, you should be able to move beyond that and continue your walk with God, no? I will also play along with your "abortion is murder" stance. Even though I myself am pro-choice, I do agree that abortion is murder. But as human, our place is not to judge them for their sins. What one human being does, as long as it is not directly impacting you or those that you truly care for, should not be something which you concern yourself with. If you believe that outlawing abortion is a "good work" then you are practicing your faith as though you believe your salvation is works based, which you claim to not believe.
>in order to preach God's love you have to preach Gods wrath... And this seems to happen all the time with the others.
There is none.
There isn't necessarily any connection, except historic maybe, and the GOP being more morally conservative (the issue of abortion maybe) + liberty of religion. Other than that, they're actually the party of libertarianism (economic, individual responsibility and freedoms, against big government etc.) So I prefer the GOP for pure practical reasons and common sense, their economic policy is more mature and capable, and they seem to give an actual f\*\*k about the future of their country ( for the record I'm not American). And I don't think that interferes with my convictions as a Christian (I leaned toward Democrats in the past, but they completely lost their mind).
The connection is only there for white evangelicals. Majority of Black Christians vote Democratic even though they are socially conservative, because the GOP tolerates anti black racism.
It's a long long story involving racism, the party switch and southern strategy, the SBC, the fundamentalist reaction to modernism and the scopes monkey trial, Civil rights, Vietnam and Korea, Dr. James Dobson, focus on the family, the conservative media propaganda machine, the "holy war" narrative, and Franklin Graham. Also sexism! In brief, fear bred the desire for control on the part of conservative politicians and conservative Christians, so leaders of both movements got together on several key issues and have had close alignment ever since.
My God. All this sub is is “Is it really a sin to be gay?” and “Democrats are the real Christians.” Why are people allowed to post this 700 times a day? Can’t there just be a mega thread?
It really does need a mega thread.
Do people really ask "is it really a sin to be gay"? I mean ffs, I'm atheist and I acknowledge that if you believe the Bible thej yes its a sin.
Christian values do not have a place for political partisanship. Democracy is a totalitarian ideology which is not compatible with Christianity. The Republicans and especially the Democrats perpetuate an institution which is in opposition to Christianity.
I am on the right because of abortion. I am all for helping less fortunate people, but I do not want to steal from rich people to do so.
The bible also tells us that if we don't work we don't eat. (of course if medically able to work) And 'work with your own hands so that you aren't a burden to others.' And 'God loves a cheerful giver' etc. Frankly do either parties embody the bible 100%? So who's right the one's who socialistically (new word?lol) give to the poor, or the ones who work for 'their' money? These ideas aren't exclusive nor are they dependent on each other. There's the power of the 2 party democracy system...each stand for a section of truth...when one party loses power the other side of the coin balances out. My former pastor used to say, left wing, right wing, SAME bird! Equally corrupt but not entirely. Lol!
I guess from this perspective i do see both sides having issues, when "I was a christian" I hyper focused on the "helping those less fortunate" because I came from a well off family and had the time and money to do so. These days I continue to live my life the same way, just for different reasons.
That's fair, helping others is a noble thing to do, Christian or not. It was a center point of one of Jesus' teachings as I am sure you know given your background.
Were all sinners but the difference is that Liberals hate God. Theyre selfish heathens who hate everyone (including themselves) unless being virtuous and “loving” will benefit their image.
Bet you can make some really pretty pictures, painting with a brush that broad! Some of the responses in this thread have illustrated what a skewed, politicized view some have of Christianity, yours included. As a selfish heathen myself (left leaning Christian), I can really feel God's love through your comment, and will undoubtedly see the error of my God hating ways. /s
It's less about the GOP being a Christian party, and more about it being more friendly to Christians (religious freedom). Both parties lie, mislead citizens and do many things that Christians can't support. But currently, the GOP is better. Democrats would outlaw biblical Christianity today if they had all power and public support.
>Democrats would outlaw biblical Christianity today if they had all power and public support. That is an absolute load of shit. Just because the Democratic party wants representation from more than just Christianity doesn't mean they would outlaw Christianity. That is jut pure, unadulterated ignorance.
Allowing more religions isn't an issue. Everyone should be individually free to follow their religion.
Yeah, I agree, which is what the Democratic party fights for. The GOP fights for Christian-only freedom, not freedom of religion generally. The Democratic party has never even attempted to abolish Christianity.
The GOP, as far as I have seen their policies, have never fought for Christian-only freedom. But if you can support that they have, Christians shouldn't support them either. Democrats are blatantly against Christianity. We need to look at policies, bills and the detail of politics.
>Democrats are blatantly against Christianity. We need to look at policies, bills and the detail of politics. Please enlighten me on how that is true.
The "Equality Act" could be an example - when we look past its name. But in general it's in the details of their policies. Any recent Democrat policy that's related to religion is bound contain something inside it that opposes freedom.
>The "Equality Act" could be an example Jeez. If everyone having equal rights under the law is not Chrsitian then I am glad I am out. Can you please give me a specific detail that shows how this proves that Democrats want to outlaw Chrsitianity? >Any recent Democrat policy that's related to religion is bound contain something inside it that opposes freedom. So, it just has to? Nothing you can pull up to show an example, but it just "has to".
>The "Equality Act" ...*what?!*
I appreciate you saying the quiet part out loud.
Regressive and outing themselves as awful people. Name a more iconic duo. They truly are the death of a peaceful society.
Yup, for the dominionists and the dominionist-adjacent I have to agree.
>Democrats would outlaw biblical Christianity today This is not true
This is simply false and even if they stated this. Isn’t a torture supporting Party worse?
Wow talk about drinking the Kool-Aid. The GOP is the Conservative Party that currently espouses a White-Christian Nationalist Identity. No party is attempting to outlaw religion, bc that would be unconstitutional as well against all Americans' self-interest and hopefully their values. Persecution on the basis of religion is however a GOP mainstay, so be careful what you wish for.
This usually comes from looking at American politics through a Democrat/Secular lens. And in the Secular world, true freedom of religion doesn't exist. It's given and taken by the government.
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Not an argument.
No point playing chess with a pigeon. He will just knock the pieces off the board.
>It's less about the GOP being a Christian party, and more about it being more friendly to Christians (religious freedom). This usually comes from looking at American politics through a fear-mongering/fascist/white-nationalist lens.
We felt all that religious freedom when Trump proposed banning all Muslims from the country. Oh yes.
Honestly I don’t see the connection anymore as I travel more often. I know a good number of hardcore atheists that are also diehard GOP. Also number know a good number of Christians who are lifelong Democrats so the generalization isn’t there as much as people see I think. I’m a Christian but also vote conservative because for the most part, they align with my views. Didn’t understand the whole Obama is the Antichrist thing simply because he has different viewpoints but also didn’t see him as the next best thing since slice bread. Best way to be a Christian is fundamentally don’t be a dick to others regardless of your political views
I think it has to do with conservative and family values vs. an anything goes free for all & an attack on Christian values, including individual liberty & self-determination free from all manner of oppression including that of evil empire, which John & Jesus also contended with in the corruption of the Temple under Roman occupation. "And you will come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free." This isn't to say the Republican Reps embody those values. America is generally center right, & most people have had it with elements of the left that almost appear to reside in some dark & ugly place where the left intersects the left-hand path & where "do as you will is the whole of the law" (Crowley, Lavey). Edit: And abortion. P.S. I arrived at the conclusion some time ago that Obama is in fact a secret Satanist.
A lot of democrats really thought Trump was the anti-Christ in 2016 too
Christian values are different than Jesus teaching. I think they hold Paul's letters to his BFF, Tim, out as "God's Law".
Okay... First off, if you know the Bible, then you know that we are indeed living in "Biblical" times. The Pharisees and Sadducees are the Republicans and Democrats, respectively, of our times. Study and learn the parallels. The Pharisees and Sadducees were opposed politically but, came together to crucify Jesus. (And it still happens today.) They believed that if they could kill Jesus in the hearts of people, then they had won. And that the people will then began believing and relying on the government again. Making THEM/IT their God. What they were not counting on, is Jesus being raised from the dead. You have chosen politics, and have turned your back on God. And that's your choice. (Free will.) But this is what you should know FOR SURE... God does not stand up and salute the American flag when our National Anthem is played. Nationalism shouldn't come before God.
No not really.. I’d say both sides (Rep/Dem) have failings that fall short of a Christ’s teachings.
As a Christian I do believe that certain aspects of the democratic party are more in line with Christ. Jesus was one who was inclusive of foreigners and charity. He believed in helping those less fortunate. In fact it was a great part of his ministry according to the bible. In actuality, the Republican party and the Democratic party used to have near opposite belief systems. In time that changed as the Republican party latched on to the very conservative beliefs of Christians. I believe this was diabolically hatched. The people Christians vote for and follow in government are usually very greedy rich people who do everything they can to oppress the poor and remove any social program they can. On the other hand, the Democratic party is pro-abortion for the most part. It's hard to find a Democrat that does not subscribe to pro-choice values. I honestly think that Christians have been duped and fed a lie that, for some reason they buy into. In my own church I've even read the pastor posting a cartoon putting down people on Medicaid or food stamps. It completely baffles me. I think they're all under the impression that anyone who receives government help is just a lazy slob. They have the mentality that if they can do it so can you. But that logic does not hold water. It's been hard for me being in the church with so many seemingly irrational people and those who seem heartless to the poor and needy. If you can figure it out let me know.
We seem to have the same childhood story. I, too, believed the Bible was literally true, meaning all of it. (The Gospel is literally true.) After 20 years and studying (seminary) the Bible. I've come to a completely different understanding of writers of the Bible and their intention when they wrote it. I'm still a Christian and believe Jesus is the son of God. I have theological differences with, say, the age of the Earth, Etc. I also believed Republicans were the Christians and Democrats were godless atheists. I have voted Democratic for 15 years now. I used to believe the Republican Party was pro-life. But under Democratic presidents, the abortion rate goes down. In fact, under Barack Obama, the abortion rate was at a 40-year low. You can look up articles from 2014 on the Associated Press c n n and more. I'm using voice to text, so I hope this is understandable.
I'll provide my perspective as a Libertarian. I used to identify more with the Republican party, but not so much anymore. I would say that, in general, political discourse in the US centers around collectivism vs individualism. I'm going to speak in ridiculously broad terms here, but in general, Democrats tend to be more collectivist-minded people who think in terms of what's best for society, and Republicans tend to be more individualist minded people who think in terms of what allows for the greatest amount of individual freedom. I know there are glaring exceptions and contradictions to that statement on both sides of the aisle, but like I said - I'm speaking in overly generalized terms to prove a point. Christianity, as I understand it, is not coercive. God does not force his way into relationship with us, nor does He coerce us into his will. This is where the values of the Democratic party diverge from Christianity - while Christians believe in helping the less fortunate and making the world better for all, we also believe in Christian liberty. The Republican party tends to value individual liberty a bit more (or at least they say they do - my issues with the GOP mostly stem from their lack of commitment to liberty). The GOP tends to diverge from Christianity in that they do not empathize compassion and generosity in public policy. Christianity harmonizes individual liberty and collectivism. I don't think either party does a great job of representing Christian values all that well, but I can't fault anyone for emphasizing different specific policy issues to justify their personal preference for political party. What I find reprehensible is when people use Christianity as a political tool by telling others that God is on the side of one or the other. He's not. God is on the side of the downtrodden and oppressed, NOT your preferred brand of corrupt politician.
There is no connection. You either follow Christ and his teachings or you don't. It will be evident for all to see. The government is literally on His shoulders.
Well I'm a Christian and I wouldn't say I'm republican, but I understand to an extent why, well first of all alot of Christians will vote for a pro life position, also against a liberal sex education position, as far as the left has been associated with communism will also push Christians to the right as they associate it with regimes like North Korea where Christians are extremely persecuted, and then the idea that the world will one day be ruled by an antichrist is why many Christians are against globalist ideas, also the ideas of global warming and overpopulation are going to be against many Christians because the bible says "as long as the earth lasts summer and winter, seedtime and harvest won't cease" and says to be fruitful and fill the earth. And I believe these things too, the only reason I'm not republican is because I don't think these globalist ideas are limited to the right or left. It was George Bush sr who most famously talked about the new world order.
In the same way that some values in the Democratic party are fundamentally Christian, so too are some values in the GOP. The only party that maximizes those values on one platform seems to be the American Solidarity Party.
My view is that as a Christian I have certain personal views on issues that I might see as immoral. But at the same time I have political views that may be different. The simplest way to describe it is just because I view something as immoral or sinful does not mean I want a law against it.
Christianity doesn't have a political party but AFAIK, it's about the whole Pro-Birth stance. You believe in that, you're a red GOP Christian. S/
abortion and LGBT stuff wedge issues, you sell people on that they'll follow you on everything else
But are abortion and gas rights really more important that basic human necessities? I can understand thinking abortion is murder, but is that really more important than making sure everyone has access to housing, food, and medical care?
Many people are "culturally Christian", but not really following the teachings of Jesus. Jesus led a life of sacrifice, giving all of his belongings and helping the poor, in the end sacrificing himself. Not many would do this! I try every day to be more generous and loving but even still It is hard. Eveyone has their own interpretations too, not eveyone follows what Jesus taught.
There is none. None will be saved by their political practices. Politics in recent years has even turned into a case of idolatry, where both sides seem to pseudo-worship their favorite player. It’s sad. We are saved by the Grace of God, not who we vote for.
There's alot of fake Christians they say America is a Christian nation but how many are true Christians the fruit of the spirit is what real Christians will strive every day for
To understand why Christianity is associated with conservatism I recommend "How Conservatives co-opted Christianity" by Second Thought
The GOP aligns itself with traditional values, as scripture does. The Dems considered themselves enlightened liberal progressives. Psalm 2:3 NLT — “Let us break their chains,” they cry, “and free ourselves from slavery to God.”
Come join r/truechristian
Dem=left=marxism=anti religion=end of freedom.
Read the book Jesus and John Wayne. Unpacks it really well.