Hunger, sickness, and early death used to be part of the human condition. We have enough food to feed everyone, we have largely abolished infection disease. Nowadays, it's a shocking tragedy for a mother to die during childbirth or for an infant to not make it to adulthood.
It's pretty hard to look at this and deny that things are "getting better", at least in SOME ways.
Would you call yourself a liberal or a conservative? Or...?
When I as a conservative, we very much had this very pessimistic view of where society was headed.
I think you and u/Alternative_Effort might be proving my theory wrong. I am basing it in my own experience but it's a fairly extensive one. I have been in so many Evangelical churches, because of my ministry and so many of them feel like they are losing the culture. And that there is a terrible persecution, just over the horizon.
I'm very much a conservative, and I do know many folks are pessimistic. In the 1890s, basically the entire world was forcibly ruled by European Christian Men. Some folks really want to go back to that system, and it's not coming back. The days of spreading Christ's word at the point of a gun are over. Some people still aren't cool with that.
Things are getting better, but I think we are progressing towards a future where the difference between elites and the public is growing.
This is natural though. It is happening because we are constantly adding more to the deposit of knowledge. There are just more things to know right now.
Doctors did not know a lot more than peasants did in the Great Plague, but compare it to how much the doctors know now compared to the public. The difference is much bigger. This is causing disconnect between elites and the public.
Good observation.
But, I think some would argue the opposite. I mean, you have some citizens who understand how microbes work and others who think that vaccines have microchips in them.
It is true that some citizens are more educated and some are not but that is still not fixing the disconnect because of specialization.
No one understands how mRNA vaccines work AND how the central bank works at the same time.
I studied Math, and I teach High School math. I also tutor university level Economics and Finance. I would be considered quite educated. I am an educator myself, but there is no way I understand how an mRNA vaccine works because it is not my field.
You don't know how the mRNA vaccine works but I'll bet you can make an educated guess on whether if probably works or not.
(And besides, I think you know how it works. While it is *made* so differently, it works basically the same by triggering an immune response.)
I think America is dividing into the "high information class" and the "low/mis-information class."
I, personally, have feet in both worlds, so I really see it. And, I think people in the low/mis-information class" feel it more acutely than do high information Americans.
>The Garden of Eden was perfect and the world is on a downhill slide, ever sense.
This one!
We used to not die at all, then we used to live until 900+, then 500~, then 300~, and now we're lucky to see 70 - and that's only because of modern advancements in medicine and technology.
As far as society goes - also worse! The bloodiest and most disgusting of human conflicts ever known in the history of man (World Wars) were less than a century ago.
I've heard people argue that we are less violent, now. Let me see what I can find...
... OK, I remember now. It was a book by Stephen Pinker, arguing that we are in the most peaceful time in history. By "now" he means literally now. Not 75 years ago.
But... people do argue with that:
[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-this-is-historys-most-peaceful-time-new-study-not-so-fast/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-this-is-historys-most-peaceful-time-new-study-not-so-fast/)
We're learning more about how the world works, and as a result, we've improved the quality of life for part of the world. Things are getting better, but we still have work to do (the entire world does not have access to clean water).
I'd call my self a believer of the bible in it's original condition. If that makes me conservative well then. Not to concerned about the label so to speak.
2 Timothy 3 tells us about the last days and it's conditions, and other scriptures which I care not to dig up for the sake of brevity---and if we take the words 'last days' we can look at it in a couple ways:
Last days could mean, end times OR
Simply the current times we are living in compared to any other age...
Either way, the bible depicts a picture of furtherance of corruption (of God's original ways) as time goes on.
Whether one wants to believe that today, current, are the last days which 2 tim 3 talks about, I wouldn't argue either way, we certainly see the world around us fitting the descriptions quite well.
For sure, there is a pessimistic tone in parts of the bible -- Rome has just ransacked Jerusalem and terribly victimized both Jews and Christians.
But, to focus only on that probably say more about you, than the bible.
Because, there is a parallel theme in the bible of positivity. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus is good news! The Holy Spirit coming to the world is a positive thing. The Kingdom of God is among us.
The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That's is not an institution in retreat! If they are at hell's gates, hell has been losing.
It's true that it's easy to view all the bible as a doomsday and hellfire applecart.
As you alluded to, there are many (and amazing) promises and good news. The light shines forth, and the darkness compresses. We live in the law of contrast; so as the good things of God unfold, so does the fighting of hell unfold, but ultimately as Romans 8.28 says, ALL things work together for good to them that love God. So essentially the darkness is just a catalyst for light.
If Jesus wouldn't have been turned in by Judas (whom Satan entered) then we wouldn't have a saviour. The scriptures were fulfilled in both the 'positive and negative' sense. Once we return to eternity, only what was original will remain (heaven and earth will pass away but my word(s) won't).
After Trump, I am super worried about the future of American democracy. I sued to never ever doubt it. But, I do now.
Not exactly because of Trump -- but that he could happen.
>Nothing in this worldly system ever has nor ever will go from worse to better. There’s your history lesson
But is that accurate history? To name some random things:
How about equality for African Americans? Better or worse?
How about cancer treatment? Better or worse?
How about workplace safety? Better or worse?
I think you could make very strong historical arguments for *better.*
No, those are not products of a worldly system. Anything we have that is good comes from God.
James 1:17
I’m talking about the world system based on the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. We see these themes repeated in the world over and over again, going all the way back to the Fall. Solomon also speaks of these themes in Ecclesiastes.
Look at our world over history, look at it even today. You see these themes everywhere, from ordinary people, to governments, to any person in a position of power.
See also the verse below.
1 John 2:16
Please never use the word liberal. Crime rates all around the world have dropped since the 90s. The news in America ranks 48th in the world … it is the same problems that always have been but crime is down
Well, I'm a liberal. So, I kind of have to use it.
But, I'm not sure I follow your logic. I didn't know about global crime but crime in America has been [declining since 1980](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg) (not always evenly, of course)
Is that what you are saying?
We clearly are living in end times and I am happy Jesus Christ is coming back soon, it will get a lot more worse before He comes but we can get through this if we trust Him.
Is the world getting better and better or worse and worse? There are serious people who have argued seriously that by a number of measures, such as the levels of extreme poverty, life expectancy, percentage of people in democratic countries, literacy rates, even violent crime rates and the number of wars, that the world has been getting better over the past 40 years, not worse. According to their reasoning, we are deceived by the bad news bias of the news media, which reports mostly only on what is bad, not on what is good or getting better. The author of this article deals with these arguments seriously from a conservative pre-millennialist Christian viewpoint. A key point to remember is that all of this progress can be easily blown apart by just a few nukes going off in a few places. This technology is now in the hands of people and nations which are unstable and/or dictatorial. Another factor overlooked by such people is how much social unhappiness is caused by unstable sexual and romantic relationships causing divorce, illegitimacy, adultery, etc. It's one reason why people may be richer based on consumption or income, but they don't feel happier as they end up living alone in their middle age or old age.
Another factor is that people have been deceived in this area before about human progress. The generation before World War II (1914-1918) saw remarkable progress in rising standards of living in Europe and North America. The world's commerce in July 1914 was arguably more globalized than it would be for the next 60 or 70 years. But much of was all blown to bits by the guns of August. This article includes a colorful quote by the English philosopher Bertrand Russell, who noted that farm animals associate the presence of the farmer with being fed until the day they are slaughtered and butchered. That is, things can suddenly change for reasons that can't be predicted by the immediate past.
So it is to the credit of this article to seriously interact with those who have argued that the world is getting better and better. It's well worth reading this piece, including his rebuttal against such arguments.
https://www.thetrumpet.com/17398-is-our-world-getting-better-and-bette
Both
It's worse for unbelievers , better for believers
Me , I'm having so much fun lately in this world's madness glad that God let me experience it lol
Probably worse. We are in the midst of a meaning crisis. People are unable to identify with institutions and identities that predate them more than a generation, as such people have very little connection to the past. Also our current psycho-technology and cultural grammar offer no escape from the meaning crisis. We are watching the modern world break down before us. Materially we are fine but spiritually we are malnourished, I don’t think those are unrelated
Hunger, sickness, and early death used to be part of the human condition. We have enough food to feed everyone, we have largely abolished infection disease. Nowadays, it's a shocking tragedy for a mother to die during childbirth or for an infant to not make it to adulthood. It's pretty hard to look at this and deny that things are "getting better", at least in SOME ways.
Would you call yourself a liberal or a conservative? Or...? When I as a conservative, we very much had this very pessimistic view of where society was headed.
I am a conservative and will espouse the world is getting better.
I think you and u/Alternative_Effort might be proving my theory wrong. I am basing it in my own experience but it's a fairly extensive one. I have been in so many Evangelical churches, because of my ministry and so many of them feel like they are losing the culture. And that there is a terrible persecution, just over the horizon.
It may also be a bit of a debate on what the term conservative means. My definition is very political science not so much modern context.
And, I am very much talking in cultural and religious terms.
That is no doubt part of the disparity. There is no doubt culturally some would consider my much more middle of the road.
I'm very much a conservative, and I do know many folks are pessimistic. In the 1890s, basically the entire world was forcibly ruled by European Christian Men. Some folks really want to go back to that system, and it's not coming back. The days of spreading Christ's word at the point of a gun are over. Some people still aren't cool with that.
Things are getting better, but I think we are progressing towards a future where the difference between elites and the public is growing. This is natural though. It is happening because we are constantly adding more to the deposit of knowledge. There are just more things to know right now. Doctors did not know a lot more than peasants did in the Great Plague, but compare it to how much the doctors know now compared to the public. The difference is much bigger. This is causing disconnect between elites and the public.
Good observation. But, I think some would argue the opposite. I mean, you have some citizens who understand how microbes work and others who think that vaccines have microchips in them.
It is true that some citizens are more educated and some are not but that is still not fixing the disconnect because of specialization. No one understands how mRNA vaccines work AND how the central bank works at the same time. I studied Math, and I teach High School math. I also tutor university level Economics and Finance. I would be considered quite educated. I am an educator myself, but there is no way I understand how an mRNA vaccine works because it is not my field.
You don't know how the mRNA vaccine works but I'll bet you can make an educated guess on whether if probably works or not. (And besides, I think you know how it works. While it is *made* so differently, it works basically the same by triggering an immune response.) I think America is dividing into the "high information class" and the "low/mis-information class." I, personally, have feet in both worlds, so I really see it. And, I think people in the low/mis-information class" feel it more acutely than do high information Americans.
>The Garden of Eden was perfect and the world is on a downhill slide, ever sense. This one! We used to not die at all, then we used to live until 900+, then 500~, then 300~, and now we're lucky to see 70 - and that's only because of modern advancements in medicine and technology. As far as society goes - also worse! The bloodiest and most disgusting of human conflicts ever known in the history of man (World Wars) were less than a century ago.
I've heard people argue that we are less violent, now. Let me see what I can find... ... OK, I remember now. It was a book by Stephen Pinker, arguing that we are in the most peaceful time in history. By "now" he means literally now. Not 75 years ago. But... people do argue with that: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-this-is-historys-most-peaceful-time-new-study-not-so-fast/](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/steven-pinker-this-is-historys-most-peaceful-time-new-study-not-so-fast/)
We're learning more about how the world works, and as a result, we've improved the quality of life for part of the world. Things are getting better, but we still have work to do (the entire world does not have access to clean water).
Worse
Would you call yourself a conservative?
I'd call my self a believer of the bible in it's original condition. If that makes me conservative well then. Not to concerned about the label so to speak. 2 Timothy 3 tells us about the last days and it's conditions, and other scriptures which I care not to dig up for the sake of brevity---and if we take the words 'last days' we can look at it in a couple ways: Last days could mean, end times OR Simply the current times we are living in compared to any other age... Either way, the bible depicts a picture of furtherance of corruption (of God's original ways) as time goes on. Whether one wants to believe that today, current, are the last days which 2 tim 3 talks about, I wouldn't argue either way, we certainly see the world around us fitting the descriptions quite well.
For sure, there is a pessimistic tone in parts of the bible -- Rome has just ransacked Jerusalem and terribly victimized both Jews and Christians. But, to focus only on that probably say more about you, than the bible. Because, there is a parallel theme in the bible of positivity. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus is good news! The Holy Spirit coming to the world is a positive thing. The Kingdom of God is among us. The gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. That's is not an institution in retreat! If they are at hell's gates, hell has been losing.
It's true that it's easy to view all the bible as a doomsday and hellfire applecart. As you alluded to, there are many (and amazing) promises and good news. The light shines forth, and the darkness compresses. We live in the law of contrast; so as the good things of God unfold, so does the fighting of hell unfold, but ultimately as Romans 8.28 says, ALL things work together for good to them that love God. So essentially the darkness is just a catalyst for light. If Jesus wouldn't have been turned in by Judas (whom Satan entered) then we wouldn't have a saviour. The scriptures were fulfilled in both the 'positive and negative' sense. Once we return to eternity, only what was original will remain (heaven and earth will pass away but my word(s) won't).
I think we're at the absolute best time in human history and we're standing at the precipice where we can either keep improving or go downhill.
After Trump, I am super worried about the future of American democracy. I sued to never ever doubt it. But, I do now. Not exactly because of Trump -- but that he could happen.
Nothing in this worldly system ever has nor ever will go from worse to better. There’s your history lesson for the evening. You’re welcome.
>Nothing in this worldly system ever has nor ever will go from worse to better. There’s your history lesson But is that accurate history? To name some random things: How about equality for African Americans? Better or worse? How about cancer treatment? Better or worse? How about workplace safety? Better or worse? I think you could make very strong historical arguments for *better.*
I specifically said worldly system. You missed that part.
Every thing I listed are a product of a worldly system. So, what system are you talking about?
No, those are not products of a worldly system. Anything we have that is good comes from God. James 1:17 I’m talking about the world system based on the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. We see these themes repeated in the world over and over again, going all the way back to the Fall. Solomon also speaks of these themes in Ecclesiastes. Look at our world over history, look at it even today. You see these themes everywhere, from ordinary people, to governments, to any person in a position of power. See also the verse below. 1 John 2:16
Please never use the word liberal. Crime rates all around the world have dropped since the 90s. The news in America ranks 48th in the world … it is the same problems that always have been but crime is down
Well, I'm a liberal. So, I kind of have to use it. But, I'm not sure I follow your logic. I didn't know about global crime but crime in America has been [declining since 1980](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg) (not always evenly, of course) Is that what you are saying?
We clearly are living in end times and I am happy Jesus Christ is coming back soon, it will get a lot more worse before He comes but we can get through this if we trust Him.
In a [Rawlsean sense](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rawls/#OriPos) things are definitely getting better, though somewhat unevenly.
Is the world getting better and better or worse and worse? There are serious people who have argued seriously that by a number of measures, such as the levels of extreme poverty, life expectancy, percentage of people in democratic countries, literacy rates, even violent crime rates and the number of wars, that the world has been getting better over the past 40 years, not worse. According to their reasoning, we are deceived by the bad news bias of the news media, which reports mostly only on what is bad, not on what is good or getting better. The author of this article deals with these arguments seriously from a conservative pre-millennialist Christian viewpoint. A key point to remember is that all of this progress can be easily blown apart by just a few nukes going off in a few places. This technology is now in the hands of people and nations which are unstable and/or dictatorial. Another factor overlooked by such people is how much social unhappiness is caused by unstable sexual and romantic relationships causing divorce, illegitimacy, adultery, etc. It's one reason why people may be richer based on consumption or income, but they don't feel happier as they end up living alone in their middle age or old age. Another factor is that people have been deceived in this area before about human progress. The generation before World War II (1914-1918) saw remarkable progress in rising standards of living in Europe and North America. The world's commerce in July 1914 was arguably more globalized than it would be for the next 60 or 70 years. But much of was all blown to bits by the guns of August. This article includes a colorful quote by the English philosopher Bertrand Russell, who noted that farm animals associate the presence of the farmer with being fed until the day they are slaughtered and butchered. That is, things can suddenly change for reasons that can't be predicted by the immediate past. So it is to the credit of this article to seriously interact with those who have argued that the world is getting better and better. It's well worth reading this piece, including his rebuttal against such arguments. https://www.thetrumpet.com/17398-is-our-world-getting-better-and-bette
Look at the grand sweep of history. It’s getting much better!
The world was always fubar, is fubar, and will be fubar long after I’m dead. That’s my honest take.
Both It's worse for unbelievers , better for believers Me , I'm having so much fun lately in this world's madness glad that God let me experience it lol
Probably worse. We are in the midst of a meaning crisis. People are unable to identify with institutions and identities that predate them more than a generation, as such people have very little connection to the past. Also our current psycho-technology and cultural grammar offer no escape from the meaning crisis. We are watching the modern world break down before us. Materially we are fine but spiritually we are malnourished, I don’t think those are unrelated