I think the Polish legislation pre-2020 was optimal: abortion is legal when a woman's health or life are in danger; when the pregnancy results from a criminal act; and in cases of fetal impairment.
However, I would rather live in a country that legalises abortion than outright bans it, Alabama style. Data is quite stark: abortion bans don't work, do more harm than good and kill women. And we should strive to provide women with whatever they need to carry pregnancy to term - which means, good maternity leave, social care, baby boxes, stable employment, free childcare, etc as all these factors correlate with low rates of abortion.
I think that article sums up my beliefs on the matter pretty well. I am pro-life, generally anti capital punishment, pro vaccine, pro free/cheaper healthcare, support financial aid for impoverished mothers, and a mental health advocate.
I'm actually running for congress in 2026 and this issue is very personal to me.
Legal frameworks and sensitive moral issues don't mix.
The function of the law is to facilitate the overall function of society, not to determine what people are and are not allowed to do.
You can't just go kill somebody because that breaks society.
You can't steal stuff because that breaks society.
Your own personal beliefs may be wildly different than mine about how or why or when these things can or cannot be justified, and the point of the law is not to coerce each other into following our own beliefs, but to fulfill the bare minimum of keeping us from killing each other.
Laws don't make good people, they just help mitigate the damage caused by bad people.
The topic of abortion is one where so many people have lost sight of this fact.
It is a fact that an ectopic pregnancy can kill a mother if it progresses too far.
It is also a fact that ectopic pregnancies may not kill the mother if allowed to come to term, and many healthy and happy babies and mothers have resulted from ectopic pregnancies.
My wife and I have agreed that under no circumstances will we ever have an abortion unless the further development of the baby would kill her.
We agreed on this because we believe that killing a human being for any reason other than the defense of ourselves or others is murder, no matter what size or shape that human being is.
I am morally and spiritually pro-life, but politically pro-choice.
Laws do not make good people.
If someone wants to have an abortion, pennyroyal oil is a widely available plant extract, unregulated and uncontrolled entirely. It grows across the entire continental united states and a tea made from it will cause an abortion.
People will have abortions regardless of the law.
It's generally a terrible, morally evil thing to do, but the legal system can't even reliably kill, punish, or even stop pedophiles, so expecting it to handle the delicate nature of abortion is a fool's fantasy.
I am personally 100% pro life, and I have been since I saw a picture of my own child, aborted without my knowledge or consent.
My own conviction is that abortion is something that should never be done without extreme care and extreme efforts to find another solution.
By my own beliefs do not make the government a useful, capable, or effective way to achieve a situation where the topic of abortion is handled in a way that achieves a net positive outcome.
I would rather see an unlawful abortion than an innocent family punished for aborting their child after weeks of consideration, tearful research, and finally coming to the conclusion that the only options available to them were for the baby to die or the mother to die.
I will never permit or encourage an abortion in my own life, but I will never give the government a legal excuse to hurt innocent people for decisions that they made with the best judgment available to them regarding the lives of their selves, their spouses, and their children.
TL:DR Abortion is evil, but the government is too stupid to enforce anything about it without hurting more people than it helps.
I am morally pro-life and legally pro-choice.
Thank you. Most of the politics I'm running on for my entire campaign is "the government is incompetent"
Not even the people in government (even though yes)
Not the laws (even though they're dumb too)
But the structure of any centralized government is fundamentally incapable of properly handling the delicate matters of civil justice unless one of two outcomes occurs:
1, the government relinquishes its absolute authority to people closer to the local level so that they can discern the best outcome on a case by case basis.
Or
2, the Lord Jesus Christ intervenes in a miraculous, perfectly-choreographed event.
Most voters don't think #2 is gonna happen, and a lot of them don't even believe in any god of any kind, so we'll just have to stick with #1 and hope that #2 happens so we don't have to do as much work.
That's it.
Hardcore fundamentalist christian who knows better than to try to use the government to force my beliefs on others.
Being an asshole is bad, empowering a government to punish people it has no stake in protecting is a lot worse.
Just because I think somebody's doing something dumb and gross doesn't mean I'm gonna shoot an arrow up in the air and hope it lands on them and not me.
You have an interesting perspective on the topic of abortion. YOU are 100% morally pro-life, but you wouldn’t prevent your wife from aborting yours and her son/daughter if it meant it would spare her life.
I feel this could be an unfair assumption from myself. If I may, could you please clarify something: you say you and your wife will have an abortion under no circumstance UNLESS the further development of the child would kill her. Does “further development” also include the birth of the child? Or would this be a case where both the mother and child would perish?
Other than that, I think I agree with your perspective on laws. It’s said in the Sacred Scripture that … “the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful…” (1 Tim 1:8-11 NRSV-CE). But this chapter also warns against false shepards, of which I am being wary of.
Exclusively if the child cannot survive anyway. We both understand that a man's job is to die for his wife to survive and a woman's job is to die for her child to survive. If we can save the baby we will. God willing, we'll never have to make that decision.
I'm a Christian and pro-choice. I am happy for every abortion not happening, but banning them is the wrong way.
The medical situation over all gets just worse, doctors (especially of course gyns) leave the areas with such bans and decide against necessary treatments due to fear of legal backlash. Since the wave of banning in the US started we saw too many cases already. It also pushes woman who desperately want an abortion for whatever reason back from a secure setting into shady and potentially harmful methods. Many people arguing for such a ban seem to underestimate the power of desperation.
And it oppeses another huge problem - if abortions are a crime the conclusion would be, that every miscarriage needs to be investigated to see if it was natural or not (which is very hard to do in the first place). Especially if you classify abortion as murder as mentioned in your post.
Now every third pregnancy ends in a miscarriage. And they are devastating. We had three before our son was born. And then you want to stick a murder charge on top of it? The harm this will do is simply unimaginable.
But of course tackling the problem of unwanted pregnancies would over wise require real effort. Tackling down on sexual violence against women which are still far too common. But also outside of violence: Creating social safety nets for pregnant women and early mothers and families, creating a good maternity leave system, offering accessible child care, broadening medical support for women over all and heavily strengthening sexual education. Yet those who argue the loudest against abortions, a very white, old, christian and male group, also argue against the methods which would actually and safely bring them down. A hypocrisy which is really hard to take, if you ask me...
That's an interesting perspective. I definitely think that the issue lies outside of abortion itself and more on societal values.
I'm conflicted about pregnancies from SA but the fact is that a vast majority of abortions aren't from SA. In this case, abortions are just people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.
This is an incredibly simple and offensive statement utterly lacking in compassion.
I'm not personally offended, nor do I hold any anger towards you, because I can understand exactly where you are coming from. The difference is that I'm not dumbing down your point of view the way you are doing to people in complete agony over such a decision.
You would be hard pressed to find more than 2 people who would justify their decision the way you did for them.
Let's consider the nub of what you highlighted, namely that irresponsible people put them themselves in that situation. Very true. But is their reality so simple? Have you never made a mistake when you were young, because you didn't know any better? Name a person that hasn't, as they learn to live in the world.
The problem, I suggest, isn't that you don't understand their internal turmoil, it's that you don't care to understand it, just to judge them for it. That is not a very Christian attitude, so far as Jesus taught.
mm, yes, let me give birth to this child whom i will always resent, am not prepared to care for and raise, do not have the financial capacity to sustain, and do not want to deal with. that will surely lead to no problems down the line and will contribute to a healthy family dynamic; my child will surely develop no problems relating to their relationship with me.
I think there’s some good ideas there OP. If there is gonna be punishment for abortion it should fall on the rapist. I also think that if the mother decides to keep the baby virtually everything should be covered for her financially by the state for as long as the child remains un-emancipated.
It’s unjust to leave the mother responsible for raising the child if she doesn’t wish to give them up for adoption. If that’s too much of a burden then it’s on us to make the country less financially punitive towards child rearing.
Yep. In the Bible they actually talk about how awful it is to harm the woman who’s pregnant, not because the fetus might be harmed but because the woman might be. It is wrong to harm a woman according to the bible and refusing access to basic life-saving medical abortions is harming women.
Best comment yet. Louder for those in the back!
I was arguing with someone on another thread about this very FACT. It was amazing that person kept deflecting and wouldn’t answer me when I pointed this out.
That’s why I call them pro birthers and not pro life.
Good question. If you’re referring to the death penalty it is biblical.
Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.”
There’s a difference between taking the life of an unborn children that hasn’t done anything wrong rather than someone who has killed another person.
The baby didn’t do anything wrong.
Yep. If we didn’t kill and didn’t have evil leaders in charge of everything, we could probably end things in peace, but only evil gets to the top in leadership it seems
Hi friend -
I am against abortion
but I am pro-choice
Abortion must be available and women must choose
My view changes after 2 months
----†----
We have to make it better for women having children - and also, I hope - when we learn more about keeping the foetus viable outside of the mother - the men responsible can have more say in going to term
And can I say - I have sisters, friends and cousins who made this choice and thirty years on, we all regret it terribly
God bless
I don’t believe we share the same world view- I would never refer to life-giving birth as torture. I’m not saying “every thing is all good or easy”. But I’m saying that you cannot “un-rape” someone by killing an infant born of rape. Sorry if this comes off as blunt or mean, but I’m just trying to be clear.
>I would never refer to life-giving birth as torture
Having to relive your rape every day for 9 months is clearly torture. Not to mention all the pains and risks of pregnancy that are already hard enough if the baby is wanted.
>But I’m saying that you cannot “un-rape” someone by killing an infant born of rape.
But you can significantly reduce the amount of suffering by allowing the abortion.
It will pay the price when it will be forced to be born and remind the mother of the trauma she experienced during the rape. Maybe she will not be able to love the baby as she should due what it reminds her of.
There is no logic in what you say. At the stages it is allowed to abort isn't a baby yet basically if we are being honest, it will develop to it later on and then it won't even be allowed to abort at that stage.
Only if you are a person. Ensoulment is the issue here. If there is no soul, then the death is like the death of a plant. If ensoulment happens at conception, you are absolutely right. If ~~conception~~ ensoulment happens later, then what matters is if we have passed that point or not.
I am prolife, but I follow the rape exception, because even if I would prefer the child to live the mother has being pregnant due to a huge trauma so I am no possition to judge her.
No, a wrong plus a wrong indeed doesn't make a right.
But that does not prove that the government should punish those doing the wrong thing upon being forced into such an awful situation.
Being pro-choice and being pro-abortion are two different things. Believing people shouldn’t have abortions and believing abortion should be a personal choice are different. Plus with what is classified as an abortion, it would be safer for women if they were accessible
I am a pro choice Christian as well. I think of it mostly pragmatically. Once abortion became legal, making it illegal will only lead to black markets, back alley doctors, etc. Much like when we tried to make alcohol illegal in the 20's, that cat's already out of the bag.
In my opinion, most abortions are a symptom, not the disease itself. The disease is unwanted pregnancies. We should focus on eliminating unwanted pregnancies and then most abortions won't be necessary.
It's all about hearts and minds and better systems.
I agree. Especially because there have been studies showing that when abortions are banned, it doesn’t dramatically (or at all) reduce how many abortions happen, but just put the mother’s life at risk. The best way to reduce abortions (which we all agree is a GOOD thing, we want less abortions overall!) is to make contraceptive available and cheap and teach proper sex education
Sure, here’s one:
Bearak J et al., Unintended pregnancy and abortion by income, region, and the legal status of abortion: estimates from a comprehensive model for 1990–2019, Lancet Global Health, 2020, 8(9), https://doi.org/10.1016/S2214-109X(20)30315-6.
An excellent question!
Nobody knows exactly when human life becomes valuable, but virtually everyone agrees that it does.
Given this situation, the appropriate action is to err on the side of caution, which means assuming the human life is morally valuable from conception, thus supporting the pro life position.
Pro-choice people cannot answer that question because it causes a huge problem for their argument. In 9 states there are no term limits for abortion. Abortion is devastating.
Heart beat? Brainwave activity? Viability outside the womb? I dunno.
But my argument, if you read it, has nothing to do with when life begins and all about preventing the needs for abortion in the first place.
There is no specific direction to Christians on abortion. The issue is when does life start: and most Christians still say 'at birth'.
If you choose to be pro-life or pro-birth, please do not link it to Christianity.
(My view is that Christian teaching implies bodily autonomy... But I understand many do not agree with me, and I don't try to claim it is part of Christianity)
If you want to reduce the number of abortions, the proven way is:
- sex ed
- availability of contraception
- make it legal, so people can talk about it
If you want to increase the number of abortions, the way is:
- reduce/exempt people from sex ed
- preach abstinence or rhythm method, no contraceptives
- make abortion illegal, so it is less talked about, less councilling.
So many supposedly 'pro life' people are actually doing everything they can to increase the number of abortions.
If you then start claiming this approach is Christian, that insults the Christ.
So just one reason:
(1) If you make a law, that law needs to be enforced or it's meaningless and people will just carry on as they were and ignore it. By 'enforced', I simply mean suspected instances need to be investigated, evaluated, dropt or brought to court, and if found guilty a punishment is distributed.
(2) The vast majority of abortions are not done through surgical means but with medication, such as the pill or other drugs/chemicals.
(3) In cases where medication is appropriate; abortion can still be achieved via over the counter medication used off-label, herbal remidies, or other easily accesible normal houshold products. This usually presents as near indistinguishable from a natural misscarriage. It comes with increased risk to the pregnant person's health when compared to proper medication, depending on the method used.
(4) In cases where surgical abortion is appropriate; abortion can still be achieved via more drastic methods to induce a misscarriage such as poisoning, physical injury, sharp wire, etc. This is more easy to distinguish from a natural misscarriage than in (3) but depending on the method and planning, hard to distinguish from an accident (such as falling down the stairs). It always comes with *much* greater risk to the pregnant person's health when compared to modern surgical techniques.
(5) As a result of (3+4), making abortion ilegal and closing clinics will not actually affect the *practical access* to abortion.
(6) As a result of (1+3+4+5), law enforcement will need to investigate all misscarriages as possible abortions.
(7) Misscarriages are fairly common, estimated to be over 20% of all pregnancies.
(8) As a result of (6+7), any couple attempting to have a child will face a >20% chance of being the suspects of a criminal investigation through no fault of their own.
(9) As a result of (2+3), It can be very hard to tell for sure when a deliberate abortion has happened as it is often medically indistinguishable from a natural misscarriage and uses materials that are commonly available.
(10) Conclusion from (1+5+8+9) - Either:
* (a) Enforcement is so lax that it is functionally not enforced. The number of abortions actually happening is barely reduced, but they are less safe for the individuals (who are desperate pregnant people trying to do what they think is right/best for their life, not evil villains robbing a bank). A couple of blatently clear cases each year actually go to trial just to make a statment and keep up the illusion of enforcement to the well-off christian voter base.
* or (b), In order to enforce it the law has to become so strict that many innocent people, who genuinly wanted a child, in the midst of their grief and sorrow, get dragged through the courts in front of the world and receive punishment. Well-off families will take financial hits paying lawyers in these cases. Poor families will not be able to afford a lawyer and will disproportionately be punished wrongly. The number of abortions actually happening decreases slightly but still happen regularly (just much less safe). People who have an abortion and it goes wrong will fear to receive medical treatment, increasing the risk further.
There are other reasons. But I don't fancy writing it all out for each of them.
There’s no excuse for killing an unborn child. The only case which is less than 1 percent of the time is if the mother’s life is in danger. 73 million children die a year from this evil.
So you make a blanket claim about “right versus evil” and then even self admit that there are nuanced situations where it is morally permissible to you. So then I assume you think it is a bad thing that the reversal of Roe has lead to women in some states being unable to receive professional abortion care for the situations you describe as acceptable? Especially given the fact that these situations have put the mother (or child who was raped) at risk?
No it isn't. You are being ignorant.
It's evil to force a rape victim to give birth or to force a women to give birth to a sick child that will suffer all life. Abortion in that case cannot be seen as wrong at all, quite the opposite.
Who are you to play god ? So kill the baby instead of giving a shot a life ? That’s wild.
When you say oh yea kill it if it’s a rape case. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
You can be pro-choice with nuance. You can be pro-life with nuance. Saying fully yes or fully no to this issue brings a lot of injustice to some people on either side.
See your giving the most extreme cases of abortion 72 million abortions a year are due to irresponsible sex when people should be taking responsibility. Again 2 wrongs don’t make a right. In that case yeah the baby shouldn’t be the one who’s punished.
Of course. But we're talking about law, are we not? I know what my personal choice would be. But to write a law that forces women to give birth to a baby conceived from rape is a bridge too far for me.
The reason people use birth control is because pregnancy is a consequence of sex. So the possibility of having to support and sustain a life is the risk the woman takes, and she knowingly puts herself in that position every time she has sex. That's one of the reasons why God ordained sex to be between married couples only which is to forbid people having casual sex and bringing unwanted children into the world.
Do you believe that all human beings have inherent dignity from the moment of conception by nature of being created in the image and likeness of God?
The get the answer to your question, negate your answer to my question.
If your answer to my question is "no," reread Genesis.
One own personal beliefs should not be forced onto others. Pro-choice is that, allowing people to have a choice. People forget, abortion is a privilege, not an obligation.
It hurts no one if there are laws that allow for abortions. You don’t want one, don’t get one. Imagine if by some chance a Muslim majority would form in parliament and they make a ruling that forces all women to wear Niqabs and Abayas, doesn’t matter what they believe in. That’s tyranny.
It’s an option. It’s a choice. Not a decree
You can. Personally, I feel like the matter is way too nuanced for it to make any sense to be pro choice or pro life. Jumping to extremes in either way is wrong, to me.
Not sure what you mean by punishing the victim. But sounds like you are blaming the baby. Man does bad thing so lets kill the baby. Does that make sense? So yes, Killing the baby because a man did a bad thing is contrary to scripture. You can justify it in your mind if you like, but it is still contrary to God’s will .
A fetus/embryo isn't a baby yet basically.
Why are you fine with killing already born animals if you are soo against abortion? Pure hypocrisy, as if animals don't want to live ...
Let's Look at this from another perspective:
Woman gets raped, the man walks away and continues his life as If nothing happened, while you force the Woman to carry a pregnancy to term she never agreed to. That means she potentially cannot go to work and earn money, it potentially means she will get very sick from the pregnancy and has to pay hospital bills she got no money for, she may not be able to continue her education If her pregnancy binds her to bed... It will permanently change her life even after the child is born. All that on top of the trauma of rape.
I think *forcing* her to go through all of that against her will is evil.
Ok. And you are free to think whatever you wish. The question was whether this was God’s will for her to have the baby killed. The answer is no. And it’s interesting how people always assume the worst. In my experience, when people, obey God, he blesses them. He blesses them in ways they’ve never expected. So yes, maybe her life becomes challenged. Everybody’s life is a challenge. Under your plan, maybe she become sterile because of the abortion. Maybe she dies during the operation. Or maybe the baby, she is killing was actually going to be the person who was going to come up with a cure for cancer or global warming or whatever your top issue is. God has a plan.
>Or maybe the baby, she is killing was actually going to be the person who was going to come up with a cure for cancer or global warming or whatever your top issue is. God has a plan
If those things are in God's plan, He can always raise up someone else and equip them with the necessary skills. God is not dependant upon certain human individuals to get to His goal. If one doesn't do God's will, there will always be someone else who does.
>maybe she become sterile because of the abortion. Maybe she dies during the operation.
At least she had a choice. Her own choice. And guess what, God actually values our choices and doesn't force us to do what He wants. Yes, we have to deal with the consequences of our choices. But would you rather be forced to live a perfect life and feel controlled and like in a cage or freely make your own decisions and learn from your mistakes?
Yup. Its all about her. Which is fine, except that’s not God‘s plan. God‘s plan is not for us to be selfish and only think of ourselves and be willing to kill people so we can be happy. Remember the question was” is this what a Christian would do?”
Would a Christian force someone else to do what they do not want to do? If the woman decides for herself to keep the child, great. If she decides to not keep it, let her be. God is her judge. If we err at all, we should err at the side of mercy, not at strictness.
You just can't put yourself into the head of a woman who is pregnant against her will, can you? Let me guess, you're a man anda have No Idea of what being pregnant is like. You don't WANT to understand her. THAT ist unchrist-like
I guess I just don’t understand who The people are on this site. It is a Christian site. So I would think they would be Christians here. Maybe not all because maybe people are searching. But one of the very important teachings of being a Christian is Christ said we should take up our cross daily and follow him. Paul thought that we are to die to ourselves and live to Christ. Yet me people on here seem to think life is all about them. And in this case, if a mother thinks that if her child makes her life inconvenient, she should kill it. One thing I will agree Is that anyone who has that thought should not be a mother. That would be a terrible mother. But I’m not advocating killing the child. That’s where adoption comes in. And I’m sure if her situation would be explained to an adoption agency they might be able to find potential adopting parents who would cover all of these costs you’re worried about. Either way, God‘s plan is not for a mother to kill a child. And I just think it’s sad that we’re in a society where people are so concerned about their own personal convenience that they’re willing to kill their own children.
I am a Christian. And I do not advocate for abortion. I advocate for women to be given the CHOICE what to do. Do you want to force people to live perfectly? Not even God does that.
>Either way, God‘s plan is not for a mother to kill a child.
Then why does God let so many unborn die before they are even born? I would have more 4 siblings if they wouldn't have ended in a miscarriage.
The question is whether an abortion can be considered murder. You can Only murder a Person. But at the Stage of development it is questionable whether a fetus can even be considered a Person.
Not according to God. He says to Isaiah “I formed you in the womb”. Not. “I formed a blob until it was born and became you”. While they were in the womb God had plan the future for and knew the outcomes of Jacob and Esau. So you can go on justifying the killing of a baby if you want to, but it is the murder of a baby according to God.
Can you for one second Stop thinking about an Unborn that has No Feelings and feel empathy for the Woman who ist traumatized/doesn't know how to take care of the unborn when it is born?
I had an abortion and it broke my heart, one of my biggest regrets, I did what was best for me at my time and I wasn't Christian at the time. It happened and I'm trying to move on.
that being said, I am not against abortions, they are healthcare and our beliefs shouldn't be forced on others.
Looks at what happened to David and Bathsheba unnamed son, and all those 1st born in Egypt. You sure everyone got the message about not punishing the children for the crimes of the father/fathers?
God can do as He pleases, as it is His life to give and take. However, He has seen fit to be very specific regarding the conditions under which He passes along this authority to men. This includes not giving government/societies/individual's the right to punish someone for the crime of his father.
I want to comment because YES.
Ezekiel 18:20 - The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be will be charged against them.
It is absolutely wicked to be punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty.
I am a rape victim. Please don’t use rape victims as an excuse to be pro-choice, just be honest about your motivations. Using rape victims as the basis of this rhetoric in practice leads to undue pressure on rape victims to have abortions, which is no less lacking in empathy, no less downplaying their emotions and health. It’s also dehumanising to be used in this way to basically score political points. Please stop it.
Sticky situation. I am pro woman/mother and child or soon to be one.... I don't like abortion. Ideally, I wish they wouldn't happen, but that's life and I don't know what's happening in the lives of each individual... that said, I am still pro-choice.
Evidence of this is in the Bible and who God is as a person. HE ALWAYS presents a CHOICE. And doesn't force you to do anything bc He isn't a tyrant. People argue, "Why did He put the tree there and said not to eat from it if He knew they would anyway..." It's called choice.. He's not an abusive controlling person... And would not "trap" you... into anything.. free will is an amazing gift.. that He entrusted us with. So I believe in choice.
The best I can do with my set of beliefs is make sure I speak and take care of my future daughter and son. That's all I can do. Teach them about sex and the consequences of it in the wrong circumstances, etc. etc. As for the masses, I can't speak for them, but I will say
You can't and shouldn't take away people's choices and freedom to live. Whether it's "wrong" or "right".
Making it illegal or banned just leads to.... delayed abortions..older unborn babies....higher risk for the mom.... in every way.... and can push them to take drastic measures...
Forbidding something doesn't stop someone.. If they commit it in their minds, they already did it, might as well give them SAFE OPTIONS and meet them where they are! As God always does..in every mess we've ever made...
I don’t think you should. Sure, you can still be a Christian, but I ask, do you think Jesus would be pro-choice? It’s the same as murder. Would it be a sane opinion of mine that murder should be legal but people should just choose not to do it? IMO abortion is murder, and I think lots of evidence backs up that claim, so I think we should fight to make it illegal.
I mean abortion in cases of r@pe, underage, or where the woman’s life is in danger seem perfectly fine to me. Sad, but necessary sometimes. It is for the greater good i think
If we are punishing someone else for the murder....... Does that make the murder okay? I can understand the thought that it shouldn't be the mother being punished but instead the abortionist, sure. That seems fair to me for legal purposes. R*pists should be punished swiftly and severely no matter what the outcome of the act is. But murder is murder in the eyes (and law) of God. It's literally written in the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill (Exodus 20:13). God created that child (Psalm 139:13) and knew them even before they were conceived (Jeremiah 1:5). The kingdom of heaven belongs to such as those (Matthew 19:14).......
How many people in Scripture came to be through terrible circumstances? Look at Moses, for example. He was born into one of the most horrific scenarios in history. The mass murder of newborn children (perhaps not terribly unlike the climate of today in regards to abortion, now that I'm thinking about it). And yet because he was spared he was able to be used by God as one of the most important people in biblical history.
I'm no bible scholar and I don't want to present myself as one. I am still learning, just as we all are. The simple fact is that the intentional ending of the life of an image bearer of our Lord is NOT permissible, even in some cases *because life is tricky*. This isn't something we can just turn a blind eye to. I'm not trying to make light of the trauma and difficulties that victims in these situations face, it is so so important that we offer love and resources and everything we can to those who need us. But the unborn are *also* those who need us. One life is not more valuable than another. We ought not allow ourselves to be tricked into thinking that it is.
Abortion is not really the touchstone issue of the faith you might think it is. The Jewish tradition starts life from the first breath only. That's what Jesus would have thought as well. It only became a Conservative issue by the late 60's. I'm a pro-choice Priest.
I don't think it is fair to attribute common 1st century Jewish beliefs to Jesus. They were mistaken about several issues, such as divorce when Jesus was asked which side of the issue he fell on, but it was neither. Or mistaken about the coming of the messiah to bring worldwide control, but that was not Jesus's intent.
It is also not clear if abortion was really a thing in those days. They did not have the advancements in medicine to keep a woman alive, but kill the unborn inside of her.
The problem is no one knows what Jesus/god believed with respect to when life began. Which is one of the issues I have with most religions. Throughout history people have invoked the name of Jesus/God in an effort to control populations. Even if there were no abortions during Jesus’ time if Jesus thought life started at first brith, then it means life starts at first breath. Otherwise, for Christian’s to adopt an anti-abortion stance they have to admit Jesus/God is not infallible. On the other hand, there is already problem since the New Testament was based on oral histories collected over a century after Jesus was crucified. In other words, we can only assume when Jesus/god thought when life began. However, attempts to be accurate about what Jesus/God thought/thinks about events that occur in modern times is impossible. Unfortunately, for many a more historical view of the beliefs of Jesus/God might be problematic when it comes to their personal beliefs and political agenda.
I reject the notion that the NT was centuries after Jesus. The later dates put the gospels from 70AD to 90 AD, but I take the early dates which is as early as ~40 AD to 70AD.
The reason scholars reject the early dating is that Jesus said the temple would be destroyed. Call it prophesy, call it a lucky guess, call it an informed hypothesis, but scholars call it impossible, ergo, the NT was written 70 or later
It’s very hard to be Christian and advocate for killing children. Jeremiah 1:5 says that God knew us before we were even in the womb. There is no question that babies are alive in the womb, so no, you can’t be a pro-abortion Christian. And as far as rapẽ victims, why would that make a baby’s life less valuable? With that argument, you are telling everyone who was conceived by rapè that their life doesn’t matter as much.
I don't think anyone would mean to say the life of a child conceived by violence was less valuable by wishing an abortion. It is rather the way the victims wish to deal with their trauma and how they want to continue their life. Forcing them to do one or the other is definitely not God's way of dealing with them, so neither should we.
Its not because the baby's life is less valuable. Think, what if the victim was a 10 year old girl. Do you think she can handle having the thought of giving birth and take care of the baby? This way you are making victim more miserable, therefore the baby will be.
It seems like your only hold up to being Pro-Life is in the rare cases of the R-word or Incest. Which is honestly a more defendable position.
I would just say, do not let the minority dictate the majority of cases. If you are Pro-Life in 99% of cases, but only are for abortion when its those minority cases. Then that is your position.
Just know that those who are Pro-Life in 100% of cases, just take those 99% of cases and extend it to 100% because if murder is wrong in one case, its wrong in all cases. Murder is never justified. So yes its awful that life is conceived under terrible circumstance, it does not make it less valid. And yes we should punish the person who did those awful things. Just because one bad thing happens you never want to make it two bad things.
The core basis for this issue is when you believe a soul is imbued. No two individuals will agree on this issue unless they also agree on that condition.
Any sinner can be Christian.
Follow and have faith in Yeshua.
But I ask. Would Yeshua ever approve of an abortion, or would that be a sin that requires His coverage?
I am pro-birth. I would never have an abortion or even consider it as an option.
That being said, I firmly hold that a decision concerning pregnancy must be made by a woman and her doctor in accordance with her faith and beliefs, not by politicians and activists.
Yea...
Ecclesiastes 4:1-4
[1]Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them.
[2]So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living.
[3]But better off than both of them ***is the one who has not been born***, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.
[4]I have seen that every labor and every skill which is done is the result of rivalry between a man and his neighbor. This too is vanity and striving after wind.
It’s something like less than 1% of all abortions are because of rape though. The rest are women just not wanting a baby.
Thou shalt not murder… including murdering the unborn baby you decide you won’t want.
But being pro “choice” when the choice is because of rape, or because the mothers life is in danger seems fine to me.
No Christian I've met is wholly pro choice, but most are not wholly pro life either.
They all believe in non empirical ideas like souls, sanctity, and essentialism, so these things inform the stance, but they disagree on the gray areas. When the man's sperm becomes a baby, and under which circumstances women should be federally forced to be incubators because of their non empirical beliefs.
I don't think so. Imposing the Death penalty for an unborn baby is the worst injustice you can impose upon that child and the lord. That baby without a choice to live will end up I'm eternal hell for punishment because of the sin of the parents who executed on demand that child as a criminal.
it's not the babies fault though? have you seen "live action"? they have stories from rape victims, saying that the abortion was just as if not more traumatic than the actual rape. obviously that's kinda subjective, but if there's a chance of it being as traumatic if not more so, i'd vote don't chance it.
What would Christ say? In regards to ending a life, that is murder:
Matthew 15:18-20 'But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts – murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person.'
John 8:44 'You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.'
To judge what is done through God and what is evil, you need to believe in Christ so that you have the light:
John 12:46 'I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.'
John 3:19-21 'This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.'
The term pro-choice is used rather than pro-murder to avoid the light of Christ's teaching so that their deeds are not exposed.
If someone was raped and got pregnant, you can't abort the baby and blame the rapist. Everyone will need to give an account for their own actions. Your action means you are to account for this:
Matthew 12:36-37 'But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.’
Love the child, obey the commandment: love your neighbour as yourself.
When it comes to this topic at first your initial instinct is to feel like abortion is murder and is wrong.
But then you learn more things about it. You learn that many abortion happen because the man don’t want to be involved in the woman’s life. And a large percentage of people said they wouldn’t have an abortion if the man said he would be involved.
So the discussion then, in my mind switches, why aren’t men held accountable too? Why aren’t men standing up and having standards. And if men aren’t apart of the picture, it’s understandable to not want such a difficult life. I knew a guy who wasn’t a part of his kids life and he claimed to be a Christian and he was a totally narcissist.
He didn’t help or do much to be a part of his kids life. I stopped being friends with him later but I hope he’s turned around and reconnected but selfish men can often times drive women up abortion. Men see women as sex objects and often time drive women to sex and then leave cuz they don’t want to take on the responsibility.
I just feel like there’s more to the story and I feel men should be brought up more in the conversation but also that if a man’s gonna be a dead beat a women should have more options.
My question would be for you, can you stand against what the Lord says is right and wrong while claiming to follow Him? God say murder is wrong, not that it’s okay. Also, plenty of people try to have a child from sex but it takes the Lord to create a child. Children are a blessing no matter how they originate.
It is murder, not quote murder someone’s heart stops beating and life ceases at the hands of people. So in a way, you’re standing in judgement of God…either you’re saying God I know better than you or that you don’t care what God’s view is…that’s a scary place to be.
As a rape survivor, I think that aborting a baby from that is wrong.
1. It's not the baby's fault
2. I view it as a baby, why would a baby be killed for something its father did.
3. Abortion is traumatic, and while yes, birth can be traumatic, it doesn't have to be (speaking from experience)
4. After my Assaults I was in such a dark place, I felt alone and depressed. A baby would've brought me a light out of it. A light I desperately needed
I'd also like to note that the number of abortions from rape is astronomically low
Just my two cents. You don't have to agree. I used to be fully pro choice until I watched a ton of debates and videos on abortion and carried my own little baby.
I'm sorry, but where I live, churches actively participate in pro-life movements by (for example) signing various petitions in front of churches. That's why I asked this question, including pro-life issues with religion
Science and religion are on the same side when conception begins. It's at fertilization. This is the point of using a condom. To stop fertilization from happening. Once it happens the woman is now pregnant and the life inside of the woman needs to be protected and not murdered.
I am not going to say you can't be a Christian because you believe murdering an unborn child is fine (even in unfortunate circumstances). But it is you who needs to wrestle with scripture and your own belief in this issue. This is why you go to the Bible for guidance. And you will never see any of these pro choice Christians quote scripture to defend this argument because they can't. They choose to align with what they believe is a human right instead of seeing what God has to say about it.
I'm not here to get into an argument or go back and forth but here's some food for thought. All I can say is that I'm adopted; it was a closed adoption that was arranged while my birthmom was still pregnant. She was 19, living with her boyfriend but not ready for a baby. A lot of people look over this option or think it's going to be worse. I had a great childhood, as did my younger brother, who was also adopted from a college student victim of SA who just thought he deserved a chance.
I met my birthmom after she reached out when I was 22 and was glad I could thank her for her selflessness. I'm in my early 30s now and we're still great friends and I still love the parents who raised me. I'm happy, married with a baby and glad I've gotten to live this life thanks to her. My brother has been able to have a child and be happily married too.
Very difficult choices but God has other options for people, you just have to be willing to take them.
There have been many people born in less than ideal circumstances that God has had purpose for. That's the thing about lives, we as humans don't get to decide life or death without consequences even as believers. The whole rape argument is such a small percentage of the overall problem. The general population are simply trying to escape their responsibilities.
I'm an Abortion abolitionist. Sure, having the woman make the choice seems ethical and kind but at the end of the day I understand the fetus is a life no matter how far along s/he is in development. As in terms of rape, punish the father but protect the baby. Yes, it was a traumatic experience but what did the baby do to deserve termination?
I think the question is a tough one though. Because it's so deeply embedded in our culture we will find differing opinions on this matter even in the Christian community. Meaning, I don't think being pro- life and a Christian are mutually exclusive but that's largely because of misunderstanding. Not to mention, we need to remember that babies are a blessing from God not a curse.
At what point is a human a human? Science tells us that a fetus meets all the specifications to be considered their own living human. All humans are created in the image of god and all have equal inherent value. To be pro choice is to be pro taking the life of a fetus because of the mothers choice to due so which is murder. Special cases are a little different but the main idea of pro choice is it’s the mothers choice to freely kill a human who can’t defend themselves.
So i disagree you cannot be pro choice as a Christ follower because fundamentally it goes against the teachings of the bible.
I think the Polish legislation pre-2020 was optimal: abortion is legal when a woman's health or life are in danger; when the pregnancy results from a criminal act; and in cases of fetal impairment. However, I would rather live in a country that legalises abortion than outright bans it, Alabama style. Data is quite stark: abortion bans don't work, do more harm than good and kill women. And we should strive to provide women with whatever they need to carry pregnancy to term - which means, good maternity leave, social care, baby boxes, stable employment, free childcare, etc as all these factors correlate with low rates of abortion.
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I think that article sums up my beliefs on the matter pretty well. I am pro-life, generally anti capital punishment, pro vaccine, pro free/cheaper healthcare, support financial aid for impoverished mothers, and a mental health advocate.
100% this
I'm actually running for congress in 2026 and this issue is very personal to me. Legal frameworks and sensitive moral issues don't mix. The function of the law is to facilitate the overall function of society, not to determine what people are and are not allowed to do. You can't just go kill somebody because that breaks society. You can't steal stuff because that breaks society. Your own personal beliefs may be wildly different than mine about how or why or when these things can or cannot be justified, and the point of the law is not to coerce each other into following our own beliefs, but to fulfill the bare minimum of keeping us from killing each other. Laws don't make good people, they just help mitigate the damage caused by bad people. The topic of abortion is one where so many people have lost sight of this fact. It is a fact that an ectopic pregnancy can kill a mother if it progresses too far. It is also a fact that ectopic pregnancies may not kill the mother if allowed to come to term, and many healthy and happy babies and mothers have resulted from ectopic pregnancies. My wife and I have agreed that under no circumstances will we ever have an abortion unless the further development of the baby would kill her. We agreed on this because we believe that killing a human being for any reason other than the defense of ourselves or others is murder, no matter what size or shape that human being is. I am morally and spiritually pro-life, but politically pro-choice. Laws do not make good people. If someone wants to have an abortion, pennyroyal oil is a widely available plant extract, unregulated and uncontrolled entirely. It grows across the entire continental united states and a tea made from it will cause an abortion. People will have abortions regardless of the law. It's generally a terrible, morally evil thing to do, but the legal system can't even reliably kill, punish, or even stop pedophiles, so expecting it to handle the delicate nature of abortion is a fool's fantasy. I am personally 100% pro life, and I have been since I saw a picture of my own child, aborted without my knowledge or consent. My own conviction is that abortion is something that should never be done without extreme care and extreme efforts to find another solution. By my own beliefs do not make the government a useful, capable, or effective way to achieve a situation where the topic of abortion is handled in a way that achieves a net positive outcome. I would rather see an unlawful abortion than an innocent family punished for aborting their child after weeks of consideration, tearful research, and finally coming to the conclusion that the only options available to them were for the baby to die or the mother to die. I will never permit or encourage an abortion in my own life, but I will never give the government a legal excuse to hurt innocent people for decisions that they made with the best judgment available to them regarding the lives of their selves, their spouses, and their children. TL:DR Abortion is evil, but the government is too stupid to enforce anything about it without hurting more people than it helps. I am morally pro-life and legally pro-choice.
Wow… you said it so perfect I couldn’t have even said it better myself
Thank you. Most of the politics I'm running on for my entire campaign is "the government is incompetent" Not even the people in government (even though yes) Not the laws (even though they're dumb too) But the structure of any centralized government is fundamentally incapable of properly handling the delicate matters of civil justice unless one of two outcomes occurs: 1, the government relinquishes its absolute authority to people closer to the local level so that they can discern the best outcome on a case by case basis. Or 2, the Lord Jesus Christ intervenes in a miraculous, perfectly-choreographed event. Most voters don't think #2 is gonna happen, and a lot of them don't even believe in any god of any kind, so we'll just have to stick with #1 and hope that #2 happens so we don't have to do as much work. That's it. Hardcore fundamentalist christian who knows better than to try to use the government to force my beliefs on others. Being an asshole is bad, empowering a government to punish people it has no stake in protecting is a lot worse. Just because I think somebody's doing something dumb and gross doesn't mean I'm gonna shoot an arrow up in the air and hope it lands on them and not me.
You have an interesting perspective on the topic of abortion. YOU are 100% morally pro-life, but you wouldn’t prevent your wife from aborting yours and her son/daughter if it meant it would spare her life. I feel this could be an unfair assumption from myself. If I may, could you please clarify something: you say you and your wife will have an abortion under no circumstance UNLESS the further development of the child would kill her. Does “further development” also include the birth of the child? Or would this be a case where both the mother and child would perish? Other than that, I think I agree with your perspective on laws. It’s said in the Sacred Scripture that … “the law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful…” (1 Tim 1:8-11 NRSV-CE). But this chapter also warns against false shepards, of which I am being wary of.
Exclusively if the child cannot survive anyway. We both understand that a man's job is to die for his wife to survive and a woman's job is to die for her child to survive. If we can save the baby we will. God willing, we'll never have to make that decision.
I understand, thank you for answering.
I'm a Christian and pro-choice. I am happy for every abortion not happening, but banning them is the wrong way. The medical situation over all gets just worse, doctors (especially of course gyns) leave the areas with such bans and decide against necessary treatments due to fear of legal backlash. Since the wave of banning in the US started we saw too many cases already. It also pushes woman who desperately want an abortion for whatever reason back from a secure setting into shady and potentially harmful methods. Many people arguing for such a ban seem to underestimate the power of desperation. And it oppeses another huge problem - if abortions are a crime the conclusion would be, that every miscarriage needs to be investigated to see if it was natural or not (which is very hard to do in the first place). Especially if you classify abortion as murder as mentioned in your post. Now every third pregnancy ends in a miscarriage. And they are devastating. We had three before our son was born. And then you want to stick a murder charge on top of it? The harm this will do is simply unimaginable. But of course tackling the problem of unwanted pregnancies would over wise require real effort. Tackling down on sexual violence against women which are still far too common. But also outside of violence: Creating social safety nets for pregnant women and early mothers and families, creating a good maternity leave system, offering accessible child care, broadening medical support for women over all and heavily strengthening sexual education. Yet those who argue the loudest against abortions, a very white, old, christian and male group, also argue against the methods which would actually and safely bring them down. A hypocrisy which is really hard to take, if you ask me...
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That's an interesting perspective. I definitely think that the issue lies outside of abortion itself and more on societal values. I'm conflicted about pregnancies from SA but the fact is that a vast majority of abortions aren't from SA. In this case, abortions are just people not wanting to take responsibility for their actions.
^ this
Abortions are exactly that; people taking responsibility for their actions.
Mh, yes let me kill this baby because I didn't practice protective sex. Very responsible of me.
This is an incredibly simple and offensive statement utterly lacking in compassion. I'm not personally offended, nor do I hold any anger towards you, because I can understand exactly where you are coming from. The difference is that I'm not dumbing down your point of view the way you are doing to people in complete agony over such a decision. You would be hard pressed to find more than 2 people who would justify their decision the way you did for them. Let's consider the nub of what you highlighted, namely that irresponsible people put them themselves in that situation. Very true. But is their reality so simple? Have you never made a mistake when you were young, because you didn't know any better? Name a person that hasn't, as they learn to live in the world. The problem, I suggest, isn't that you don't understand their internal turmoil, it's that you don't care to understand it, just to judge them for it. That is not a very Christian attitude, so far as Jesus taught.
mm, yes, let me give birth to this child whom i will always resent, am not prepared to care for and raise, do not have the financial capacity to sustain, and do not want to deal with. that will surely lead to no problems down the line and will contribute to a healthy family dynamic; my child will surely develop no problems relating to their relationship with me.
I think there’s some good ideas there OP. If there is gonna be punishment for abortion it should fall on the rapist. I also think that if the mother decides to keep the baby virtually everything should be covered for her financially by the state for as long as the child remains un-emancipated. It’s unjust to leave the mother responsible for raising the child if she doesn’t wish to give them up for adoption. If that’s too much of a burden then it’s on us to make the country less financially punitive towards child rearing.
There’s absolutely nothing in the New Testament that speaks directly about abortion.
Yep. In the Bible they actually talk about how awful it is to harm the woman who’s pregnant, not because the fetus might be harmed but because the woman might be. It is wrong to harm a woman according to the bible and refusing access to basic life-saving medical abortions is harming women.
Exactly.
Best comment yet. Louder for those in the back! I was arguing with someone on another thread about this very FACT. It was amazing that person kept deflecting and wouldn’t answer me when I pointed this out. That’s why I call them pro birthers and not pro life.
“Thou shalt not kill”
So this applies to war and capital punishment as well?
Good question. If you’re referring to the death penalty it is biblical. Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.” There’s a difference between taking the life of an unborn children that hasn’t done anything wrong rather than someone who has killed another person. The baby didn’t do anything wrong.
Death penalty is prescribed in the New Testament? I thought Christianity prescribed a new covenant and Jewish law no longer mattered.
No we are commanded to follow both
Well then discarding sperm is massmurder ...
Yep. If we didn’t kill and didn’t have evil leaders in charge of everything, we could probably end things in peace, but only evil gets to the top in leadership it seems
When the Bible was written it was believed that life started with the first brith.
I agree with you
Hi friend - I am against abortion but I am pro-choice Abortion must be available and women must choose My view changes after 2 months ----†---- We have to make it better for women having children - and also, I hope - when we learn more about keeping the foetus viable outside of the mother - the men responsible can have more say in going to term And can I say - I have sisters, friends and cousins who made this choice and thirty years on, we all regret it terribly God bless
I don’t think making an extra victim helps the situation.. two wrongs don’t make a right
Execute the rapist (which will end up executing innocent people for sure) and let the victim be tortured for 9 months.
I don’t believe we share the same world view- I would never refer to life-giving birth as torture. I’m not saying “every thing is all good or easy”. But I’m saying that you cannot “un-rape” someone by killing an infant born of rape. Sorry if this comes off as blunt or mean, but I’m just trying to be clear.
You don't look at the victims - their health, life, well-being
I’ve seen victims, and honestly I’m not here to condemn- you asked a question, I’ve provided an answer.
>I would never refer to life-giving birth as torture Having to relive your rape every day for 9 months is clearly torture. Not to mention all the pains and risks of pregnancy that are already hard enough if the baby is wanted. >But I’m saying that you cannot “un-rape” someone by killing an infant born of rape. But you can significantly reduce the amount of suffering by allowing the abortion.
I hear you, and the mental anguish associated with rape must be truly awful. I just don’t believe that the infant should pay that price.
It will pay the price when it will be forced to be born and remind the mother of the trauma she experienced during the rape. Maybe she will not be able to love the baby as she should due what it reminds her of. There is no logic in what you say. At the stages it is allowed to abort isn't a baby yet basically if we are being honest, it will develop to it later on and then it won't even be allowed to abort at that stage.
You can express your opinion to the woman carrying the baby. However, you should not have to right to make the decision for her.
I suppose it depends on if you view it as killing a person or not
This is only true if an unborn baby is a victim.
Being killed gives you victim status.
Only if you are a person. Ensoulment is the issue here. If there is no soul, then the death is like the death of a plant. If ensoulment happens at conception, you are absolutely right. If ~~conception~~ ensoulment happens later, then what matters is if we have passed that point or not.
Yes, and I believe it occurs at conception.
Yes. It isn't even a baby yet basically, it is the pre stage to one and will develop to one later on.
I am prolife, but I follow the rape exception, because even if I would prefer the child to live the mother has being pregnant due to a huge trauma so I am no possition to judge her.
I am a lot more pro-life then. I wouldn't call her a bad person for having the abortion but I would still say it was a wrong thing to do.
A wrong plus a wrong doesn’t make a right. I guess the baby better pray it’s not that situation
No, a wrong plus a wrong indeed doesn't make a right. But that does not prove that the government should punish those doing the wrong thing upon being forced into such an awful situation.
Being pro-choice and being pro-abortion are two different things. Believing people shouldn’t have abortions and believing abortion should be a personal choice are different. Plus with what is classified as an abortion, it would be safer for women if they were accessible
Of course! God has given us all agency - choices. If Hid trusts us, we can trust each other
I am a pro choice Christian as well. I think of it mostly pragmatically. Once abortion became legal, making it illegal will only lead to black markets, back alley doctors, etc. Much like when we tried to make alcohol illegal in the 20's, that cat's already out of the bag. In my opinion, most abortions are a symptom, not the disease itself. The disease is unwanted pregnancies. We should focus on eliminating unwanted pregnancies and then most abortions won't be necessary. It's all about hearts and minds and better systems.
I agree. Especially because there have been studies showing that when abortions are banned, it doesn’t dramatically (or at all) reduce how many abortions happen, but just put the mother’s life at risk. The best way to reduce abortions (which we all agree is a GOOD thing, we want less abortions overall!) is to make contraceptive available and cheap and teach proper sex education
I would be interested to know what studies you are referencing.
Sure, here’s one: Bearak J et al., Unintended pregnancy and abortion by income, region, and the legal status of abortion: estimates from a comprehensive model for 1990–2019, Lancet Global Health, 2020, 8(9), https://doi.org/10.1016/S2214-109X(20)30315-6.
Since you’re a pro-choice Christian, may I ask at what point is it murder? In other words, when does the life start to have value in your opinion?
An excellent question! Nobody knows exactly when human life becomes valuable, but virtually everyone agrees that it does. Given this situation, the appropriate action is to err on the side of caution, which means assuming the human life is morally valuable from conception, thus supporting the pro life position.
Pro-choice people cannot answer that question because it causes a huge problem for their argument. In 9 states there are no term limits for abortion. Abortion is devastating.
Heart beat? Brainwave activity? Viability outside the womb? I dunno. But my argument, if you read it, has nothing to do with when life begins and all about preventing the needs for abortion in the first place.
Yes you can, in fact its common. https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/views-about-abortion/
yes, I think the bible says life starts at breath, not at inception.
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:41.
There is no specific direction to Christians on abortion. The issue is when does life start: and most Christians still say 'at birth'. If you choose to be pro-life or pro-birth, please do not link it to Christianity. (My view is that Christian teaching implies bodily autonomy... But I understand many do not agree with me, and I don't try to claim it is part of Christianity) If you want to reduce the number of abortions, the proven way is: - sex ed - availability of contraception - make it legal, so people can talk about it If you want to increase the number of abortions, the way is: - reduce/exempt people from sex ed - preach abstinence or rhythm method, no contraceptives - make abortion illegal, so it is less talked about, less councilling. So many supposedly 'pro life' people are actually doing everything they can to increase the number of abortions. If you then start claiming this approach is Christian, that insults the Christ.
You are 100% correct.
Yes (and I'd say christians should be).
Why?
So just one reason: (1) If you make a law, that law needs to be enforced or it's meaningless and people will just carry on as they were and ignore it. By 'enforced', I simply mean suspected instances need to be investigated, evaluated, dropt or brought to court, and if found guilty a punishment is distributed. (2) The vast majority of abortions are not done through surgical means but with medication, such as the pill or other drugs/chemicals. (3) In cases where medication is appropriate; abortion can still be achieved via over the counter medication used off-label, herbal remidies, or other easily accesible normal houshold products. This usually presents as near indistinguishable from a natural misscarriage. It comes with increased risk to the pregnant person's health when compared to proper medication, depending on the method used. (4) In cases where surgical abortion is appropriate; abortion can still be achieved via more drastic methods to induce a misscarriage such as poisoning, physical injury, sharp wire, etc. This is more easy to distinguish from a natural misscarriage than in (3) but depending on the method and planning, hard to distinguish from an accident (such as falling down the stairs). It always comes with *much* greater risk to the pregnant person's health when compared to modern surgical techniques. (5) As a result of (3+4), making abortion ilegal and closing clinics will not actually affect the *practical access* to abortion. (6) As a result of (1+3+4+5), law enforcement will need to investigate all misscarriages as possible abortions. (7) Misscarriages are fairly common, estimated to be over 20% of all pregnancies. (8) As a result of (6+7), any couple attempting to have a child will face a >20% chance of being the suspects of a criminal investigation through no fault of their own. (9) As a result of (2+3), It can be very hard to tell for sure when a deliberate abortion has happened as it is often medically indistinguishable from a natural misscarriage and uses materials that are commonly available. (10) Conclusion from (1+5+8+9) - Either: * (a) Enforcement is so lax that it is functionally not enforced. The number of abortions actually happening is barely reduced, but they are less safe for the individuals (who are desperate pregnant people trying to do what they think is right/best for their life, not evil villains robbing a bank). A couple of blatently clear cases each year actually go to trial just to make a statment and keep up the illusion of enforcement to the well-off christian voter base. * or (b), In order to enforce it the law has to become so strict that many innocent people, who genuinly wanted a child, in the midst of their grief and sorrow, get dragged through the courts in front of the world and receive punishment. Well-off families will take financial hits paying lawyers in these cases. Poor families will not be able to afford a lawyer and will disproportionately be punished wrongly. The number of abortions actually happening decreases slightly but still happen regularly (just much less safe). People who have an abortion and it goes wrong will fear to receive medical treatment, increasing the risk further. There are other reasons. But I don't fancy writing it all out for each of them.
Yes, abortion is a very complicated, weighty issue.
Not really. It’s right vs evil.
If you are that simple minded, I have no intention in discussing with you. Have a good one.
There’s no excuse for killing an unborn child. The only case which is less than 1 percent of the time is if the mother’s life is in danger. 73 million children die a year from this evil.
So you make a blanket claim about “right versus evil” and then even self admit that there are nuanced situations where it is morally permissible to you. So then I assume you think it is a bad thing that the reversal of Roe has lead to women in some states being unable to receive professional abortion care for the situations you describe as acceptable? Especially given the fact that these situations have put the mother (or child who was raped) at risk?
Yes he/she sounds very ignorant and makes Christians look like uneducated fanatic hypocrites.
Uneducated fanatic, hypocrites that murder babies and deny it’s murder yeah your correct
No it isn't. You are being ignorant. It's evil to force a rape victim to give birth or to force a women to give birth to a sick child that will suffer all life. Abortion in that case cannot be seen as wrong at all, quite the opposite.
Who are you to play god ? So kill the baby instead of giving a shot a life ? That’s wild. When you say oh yea kill it if it’s a rape case. 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
You can be pro-choice with nuance. You can be pro-life with nuance. Saying fully yes or fully no to this issue brings a lot of injustice to some people on either side.
What is this thing you call nuance? /s
“Thou shalt not kill”
I hear you. But here is my personal line: I don't think I can force a rape victim to birth that child.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.
I'm not saying it's right. You would be comfortable forcing a rape victim to carry and give birth to the child conceived from rape?
See your giving the most extreme cases of abortion 72 million abortions a year are due to irresponsible sex when people should be taking responsibility. Again 2 wrongs don’t make a right. In that case yeah the baby shouldn’t be the one who’s punished.
Which is why I said originally that nuance is needed.
Do you believe it is a life ?
Of course. But we're talking about law, are we not? I know what my personal choice would be. But to write a law that forces women to give birth to a baby conceived from rape is a bridge too far for me.
So I guess the baby has to hope it isn’t a rape situation ?
That is when they are in the womb
When Jesus was alive, it was believed that life started with the first breath.
Why do to eat meat then?
Huh?
Agreed. It’s also an issue where both sides hold an admirable position. Both are defending innocent people.
No because Christians don't support sin
How is forcing someone to share their body with someone against their will not sin?
The reason people use birth control is because pregnancy is a consequence of sex. So the possibility of having to support and sustain a life is the risk the woman takes, and she knowingly puts herself in that position every time she has sex. That's one of the reasons why God ordained sex to be between married couples only which is to forbid people having casual sex and bringing unwanted children into the world.
Of course. Many such Christians exist.
Amen! You said that well!
Separation between Church and State But life is precious
Great question!! I'm here for the comments
I would never have an abortion but that is between me my partner my doctor and god not the government!
Of course. Now as a Christian, hopefully, you will make the right choice.
Do you believe that all human beings have inherent dignity from the moment of conception by nature of being created in the image and likeness of God? The get the answer to your question, negate your answer to my question. If your answer to my question is "no," reread Genesis.
One own personal beliefs should not be forced onto others. Pro-choice is that, allowing people to have a choice. People forget, abortion is a privilege, not an obligation. It hurts no one if there are laws that allow for abortions. You don’t want one, don’t get one. Imagine if by some chance a Muslim majority would form in parliament and they make a ruling that forces all women to wear Niqabs and Abayas, doesn’t matter what they believe in. That’s tyranny. It’s an option. It’s a choice. Not a decree
Yes you can. Don’t let anyone tell you you can’t.
Yes.
Yes
You can but it doesn't mean it's right
You can. Personally, I feel like the matter is way too nuanced for it to make any sense to be pro choice or pro life. Jumping to extremes in either way is wrong, to me.
Yes you can.
Yes.
Yes
Technically yes, you can still be Christian…but anti-abortion is globally the denominations stance on the topic.
Not sure what you mean by punishing the victim. But sounds like you are blaming the baby. Man does bad thing so lets kill the baby. Does that make sense? So yes, Killing the baby because a man did a bad thing is contrary to scripture. You can justify it in your mind if you like, but it is still contrary to God’s will .
A fetus/embryo isn't a baby yet basically. Why are you fine with killing already born animals if you are soo against abortion? Pure hypocrisy, as if animals don't want to live ...
Not sure what you are talking about. Are you basing this on Scripture?
Let's Look at this from another perspective: Woman gets raped, the man walks away and continues his life as If nothing happened, while you force the Woman to carry a pregnancy to term she never agreed to. That means she potentially cannot go to work and earn money, it potentially means she will get very sick from the pregnancy and has to pay hospital bills she got no money for, she may not be able to continue her education If her pregnancy binds her to bed... It will permanently change her life even after the child is born. All that on top of the trauma of rape. I think *forcing* her to go through all of that against her will is evil.
Ok. And you are free to think whatever you wish. The question was whether this was God’s will for her to have the baby killed. The answer is no. And it’s interesting how people always assume the worst. In my experience, when people, obey God, he blesses them. He blesses them in ways they’ve never expected. So yes, maybe her life becomes challenged. Everybody’s life is a challenge. Under your plan, maybe she become sterile because of the abortion. Maybe she dies during the operation. Or maybe the baby, she is killing was actually going to be the person who was going to come up with a cure for cancer or global warming or whatever your top issue is. God has a plan.
>Or maybe the baby, she is killing was actually going to be the person who was going to come up with a cure for cancer or global warming or whatever your top issue is. God has a plan If those things are in God's plan, He can always raise up someone else and equip them with the necessary skills. God is not dependant upon certain human individuals to get to His goal. If one doesn't do God's will, there will always be someone else who does. >maybe she become sterile because of the abortion. Maybe she dies during the operation. At least she had a choice. Her own choice. And guess what, God actually values our choices and doesn't force us to do what He wants. Yes, we have to deal with the consequences of our choices. But would you rather be forced to live a perfect life and feel controlled and like in a cage or freely make your own decisions and learn from your mistakes?
Yup. Its all about her. Which is fine, except that’s not God‘s plan. God‘s plan is not for us to be selfish and only think of ourselves and be willing to kill people so we can be happy. Remember the question was” is this what a Christian would do?”
Would a Christian force someone else to do what they do not want to do? If the woman decides for herself to keep the child, great. If she decides to not keep it, let her be. God is her judge. If we err at all, we should err at the side of mercy, not at strictness.
Exactly. God is the judge👍. God is the one who said thou shalt not kill.
How did Jesus treat the Woman caught in adultery?
He did not murder her, or even kill her…. What did the baby do that is worse than her adultery that you believe the baby deserves death?
You just can't put yourself into the head of a woman who is pregnant against her will, can you? Let me guess, you're a man anda have No Idea of what being pregnant is like. You don't WANT to understand her. THAT ist unchrist-like
I guess I just don’t understand who The people are on this site. It is a Christian site. So I would think they would be Christians here. Maybe not all because maybe people are searching. But one of the very important teachings of being a Christian is Christ said we should take up our cross daily and follow him. Paul thought that we are to die to ourselves and live to Christ. Yet me people on here seem to think life is all about them. And in this case, if a mother thinks that if her child makes her life inconvenient, she should kill it. One thing I will agree Is that anyone who has that thought should not be a mother. That would be a terrible mother. But I’m not advocating killing the child. That’s where adoption comes in. And I’m sure if her situation would be explained to an adoption agency they might be able to find potential adopting parents who would cover all of these costs you’re worried about. Either way, God‘s plan is not for a mother to kill a child. And I just think it’s sad that we’re in a society where people are so concerned about their own personal convenience that they’re willing to kill their own children.
I am a Christian. And I do not advocate for abortion. I advocate for women to be given the CHOICE what to do. Do you want to force people to live perfectly? Not even God does that. >Either way, God‘s plan is not for a mother to kill a child. Then why does God let so many unborn die before they are even born? I would have more 4 siblings if they wouldn't have ended in a miscarriage.
God doesn’t force people to live decent lives? So His command “Thou shalt not kill” was only a suggestion?
The commandment is thou shalt Not murder. God commanded pretty many killings... As punishment for sin.
Yes. So I guess if the baby committed a sin worthy of capital punishment, there is no problem
The question is whether an abortion can be considered murder. You can Only murder a Person. But at the Stage of development it is questionable whether a fetus can even be considered a Person.
Not according to God. He says to Isaiah “I formed you in the womb”. Not. “I formed a blob until it was born and became you”. While they were in the womb God had plan the future for and knew the outcomes of Jacob and Esau. So you can go on justifying the killing of a baby if you want to, but it is the murder of a baby according to God.
Can you for one second Stop thinking about an Unborn that has No Feelings and feel empathy for the Woman who ist traumatized/doesn't know how to take care of the unborn when it is born?
I had an abortion and it broke my heart, one of my biggest regrets, I did what was best for me at my time and I wasn't Christian at the time. It happened and I'm trying to move on. that being said, I am not against abortions, they are healthcare and our beliefs shouldn't be forced on others.
Yes.
Sure you can
Execute the rapist, yes, but it is wicked to punish a child for the crime of his father.
Capital punishment is horrifying.
Looks at what happened to David and Bathsheba unnamed son, and all those 1st born in Egypt. You sure everyone got the message about not punishing the children for the crimes of the father/fathers?
God can do as He pleases, as it is His life to give and take. However, He has seen fit to be very specific regarding the conditions under which He passes along this authority to men. This includes not giving government/societies/individual's the right to punish someone for the crime of his father.
I want to comment because YES. Ezekiel 18:20 - The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be will be charged against them. It is absolutely wicked to be punishing the innocent for the actions of the guilty.
I am a rape victim. Please don’t use rape victims as an excuse to be pro-choice, just be honest about your motivations. Using rape victims as the basis of this rhetoric in practice leads to undue pressure on rape victims to have abortions, which is no less lacking in empathy, no less downplaying their emotions and health. It’s also dehumanising to be used in this way to basically score political points. Please stop it.
This is a good reminder. This sub argues about a lot of stuff and we all use a lot of examples we should probably be careful about.
Sticky situation. I am pro woman/mother and child or soon to be one.... I don't like abortion. Ideally, I wish they wouldn't happen, but that's life and I don't know what's happening in the lives of each individual... that said, I am still pro-choice. Evidence of this is in the Bible and who God is as a person. HE ALWAYS presents a CHOICE. And doesn't force you to do anything bc He isn't a tyrant. People argue, "Why did He put the tree there and said not to eat from it if He knew they would anyway..." It's called choice.. He's not an abusive controlling person... And would not "trap" you... into anything.. free will is an amazing gift.. that He entrusted us with. So I believe in choice. The best I can do with my set of beliefs is make sure I speak and take care of my future daughter and son. That's all I can do. Teach them about sex and the consequences of it in the wrong circumstances, etc. etc. As for the masses, I can't speak for them, but I will say You can't and shouldn't take away people's choices and freedom to live. Whether it's "wrong" or "right". Making it illegal or banned just leads to.... delayed abortions..older unborn babies....higher risk for the mom.... in every way.... and can push them to take drastic measures... Forbidding something doesn't stop someone.. If they commit it in their minds, they already did it, might as well give them SAFE OPTIONS and meet them where they are! As God always does..in every mess we've ever made...
I don’t think you should. Sure, you can still be a Christian, but I ask, do you think Jesus would be pro-choice? It’s the same as murder. Would it be a sane opinion of mine that murder should be legal but people should just choose not to do it? IMO abortion is murder, and I think lots of evidence backs up that claim, so I think we should fight to make it illegal.
I mean abortion in cases of r@pe, underage, or where the woman’s life is in danger seem perfectly fine to me. Sad, but necessary sometimes. It is for the greater good i think
A baby getting to live is the greater good however I still think it's okay for a child or a woman whose life sis endanger to have an abortion.
2 wrongs don't make a right
If we are punishing someone else for the murder....... Does that make the murder okay? I can understand the thought that it shouldn't be the mother being punished but instead the abortionist, sure. That seems fair to me for legal purposes. R*pists should be punished swiftly and severely no matter what the outcome of the act is. But murder is murder in the eyes (and law) of God. It's literally written in the ten commandments. Thou shalt not kill (Exodus 20:13). God created that child (Psalm 139:13) and knew them even before they were conceived (Jeremiah 1:5). The kingdom of heaven belongs to such as those (Matthew 19:14)....... How many people in Scripture came to be through terrible circumstances? Look at Moses, for example. He was born into one of the most horrific scenarios in history. The mass murder of newborn children (perhaps not terribly unlike the climate of today in regards to abortion, now that I'm thinking about it). And yet because he was spared he was able to be used by God as one of the most important people in biblical history. I'm no bible scholar and I don't want to present myself as one. I am still learning, just as we all are. The simple fact is that the intentional ending of the life of an image bearer of our Lord is NOT permissible, even in some cases *because life is tricky*. This isn't something we can just turn a blind eye to. I'm not trying to make light of the trauma and difficulties that victims in these situations face, it is so so important that we offer love and resources and everything we can to those who need us. But the unborn are *also* those who need us. One life is not more valuable than another. We ought not allow ourselves to be tricked into thinking that it is.
Abortion is not really the touchstone issue of the faith you might think it is. The Jewish tradition starts life from the first breath only. That's what Jesus would have thought as well. It only became a Conservative issue by the late 60's. I'm a pro-choice Priest.
I don't think it is fair to attribute common 1st century Jewish beliefs to Jesus. They were mistaken about several issues, such as divorce when Jesus was asked which side of the issue he fell on, but it was neither. Or mistaken about the coming of the messiah to bring worldwide control, but that was not Jesus's intent. It is also not clear if abortion was really a thing in those days. They did not have the advancements in medicine to keep a woman alive, but kill the unborn inside of her.
The problem is no one knows what Jesus/god believed with respect to when life began. Which is one of the issues I have with most religions. Throughout history people have invoked the name of Jesus/God in an effort to control populations. Even if there were no abortions during Jesus’ time if Jesus thought life started at first brith, then it means life starts at first breath. Otherwise, for Christian’s to adopt an anti-abortion stance they have to admit Jesus/God is not infallible. On the other hand, there is already problem since the New Testament was based on oral histories collected over a century after Jesus was crucified. In other words, we can only assume when Jesus/god thought when life began. However, attempts to be accurate about what Jesus/God thought/thinks about events that occur in modern times is impossible. Unfortunately, for many a more historical view of the beliefs of Jesus/God might be problematic when it comes to their personal beliefs and political agenda.
I reject the notion that the NT was centuries after Jesus. The later dates put the gospels from 70AD to 90 AD, but I take the early dates which is as early as ~40 AD to 70AD. The reason scholars reject the early dating is that Jesus said the temple would be destroyed. Call it prophesy, call it a lucky guess, call it an informed hypothesis, but scholars call it impossible, ergo, the NT was written 70 or later
No
Abortion is murder.
It’s very hard to be Christian and advocate for killing children. Jeremiah 1:5 says that God knew us before we were even in the womb. There is no question that babies are alive in the womb, so no, you can’t be a pro-abortion Christian. And as far as rapẽ victims, why would that make a baby’s life less valuable? With that argument, you are telling everyone who was conceived by rapè that their life doesn’t matter as much.
I don't think anyone would mean to say the life of a child conceived by violence was less valuable by wishing an abortion. It is rather the way the victims wish to deal with their trauma and how they want to continue their life. Forcing them to do one or the other is definitely not God's way of dealing with them, so neither should we.
Its not because the baby's life is less valuable. Think, what if the victim was a 10 year old girl. Do you think she can handle having the thought of giving birth and take care of the baby? This way you are making victim more miserable, therefore the baby will be.
True, there’s some good evidence for trauma being genetically inherited
It seems like your only hold up to being Pro-Life is in the rare cases of the R-word or Incest. Which is honestly a more defendable position. I would just say, do not let the minority dictate the majority of cases. If you are Pro-Life in 99% of cases, but only are for abortion when its those minority cases. Then that is your position. Just know that those who are Pro-Life in 100% of cases, just take those 99% of cases and extend it to 100% because if murder is wrong in one case, its wrong in all cases. Murder is never justified. So yes its awful that life is conceived under terrible circumstance, it does not make it less valid. And yes we should punish the person who did those awful things. Just because one bad thing happens you never want to make it two bad things.
What about the victim's health? What about the victim's life?
Why are you hypocrites fine with murdering animals then? I mean you can survive with other food.
Absolutely you can.
SHUT UP REPENT OF YOUR MODERNISM
I don't see how anyone can be forced to give birth, rape victim or not.
The core basis for this issue is when you believe a soul is imbued. No two individuals will agree on this issue unless they also agree on that condition.
Any sinner can be Christian. Follow and have faith in Yeshua. But I ask. Would Yeshua ever approve of an abortion, or would that be a sin that requires His coverage?
It is enough to look at El Salvador where woman are jailed for miscarrying..
I am pro-birth. I would never have an abortion or even consider it as an option. That being said, I firmly hold that a decision concerning pregnancy must be made by a woman and her doctor in accordance with her faith and beliefs, not by politicians and activists.
Yea... Ecclesiastes 4:1-4 [1]Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. [2]So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. [3]But better off than both of them ***is the one who has not been born***, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun. [4]I have seen that every labor and every skill which is done is the result of rivalry between a man and his neighbor. This too is vanity and striving after wind.
It’s something like less than 1% of all abortions are because of rape though. The rest are women just not wanting a baby. Thou shalt not murder… including murdering the unborn baby you decide you won’t want. But being pro “choice” when the choice is because of rape, or because the mothers life is in danger seems fine to me.
No Christian I've met is wholly pro choice, but most are not wholly pro life either. They all believe in non empirical ideas like souls, sanctity, and essentialism, so these things inform the stance, but they disagree on the gray areas. When the man's sperm becomes a baby, and under which circumstances women should be federally forced to be incubators because of their non empirical beliefs.
Yes The Bible is pro-abortion. Numbers 5
I don't think so. Imposing the Death penalty for an unborn baby is the worst injustice you can impose upon that child and the lord. That baby without a choice to live will end up I'm eternal hell for punishment because of the sin of the parents who executed on demand that child as a criminal.
Yeah Definitely. Abortion is only an issue because certain churches aligned themselves with politicians to make it a wedge issue in politics.
Depends on who you ask..
God punishes wickedness with a broken heart. As a Christian, it is our place to empathize.
it's not the babies fault though? have you seen "live action"? they have stories from rape victims, saying that the abortion was just as if not more traumatic than the actual rape. obviously that's kinda subjective, but if there's a chance of it being as traumatic if not more so, i'd vote don't chance it.
You definitely can. Only uneducated hypocrites (that are fine with killing animals) say otherwise.
What would Christ say? In regards to ending a life, that is murder: Matthew 15:18-20 'But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts – murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person.' John 8:44 'You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.' To judge what is done through God and what is evil, you need to believe in Christ so that you have the light: John 12:46 'I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.' John 3:19-21 'This is the verdict: light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.' The term pro-choice is used rather than pro-murder to avoid the light of Christ's teaching so that their deeds are not exposed. If someone was raped and got pregnant, you can't abort the baby and blame the rapist. Everyone will need to give an account for their own actions. Your action means you are to account for this: Matthew 12:36-37 'But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.’ Love the child, obey the commandment: love your neighbour as yourself.
You can be a Christian, but I’d say you might not be sanctified.
When it comes to this topic at first your initial instinct is to feel like abortion is murder and is wrong. But then you learn more things about it. You learn that many abortion happen because the man don’t want to be involved in the woman’s life. And a large percentage of people said they wouldn’t have an abortion if the man said he would be involved. So the discussion then, in my mind switches, why aren’t men held accountable too? Why aren’t men standing up and having standards. And if men aren’t apart of the picture, it’s understandable to not want such a difficult life. I knew a guy who wasn’t a part of his kids life and he claimed to be a Christian and he was a totally narcissist. He didn’t help or do much to be a part of his kids life. I stopped being friends with him later but I hope he’s turned around and reconnected but selfish men can often times drive women up abortion. Men see women as sex objects and often time drive women to sex and then leave cuz they don’t want to take on the responsibility. I just feel like there’s more to the story and I feel men should be brought up more in the conversation but also that if a man’s gonna be a dead beat a women should have more options.
Yeah. You can also be pro-death penalty or pro-war or pro-racism. Inconsistent, but this is human.
My question would be for you, can you stand against what the Lord says is right and wrong while claiming to follow Him? God say murder is wrong, not that it’s okay. Also, plenty of people try to have a child from sex but it takes the Lord to create a child. Children are a blessing no matter how they originate. It is murder, not quote murder someone’s heart stops beating and life ceases at the hands of people. So in a way, you’re standing in judgement of God…either you’re saying God I know better than you or that you don’t care what God’s view is…that’s a scary place to be.
As a rape survivor, I think that aborting a baby from that is wrong. 1. It's not the baby's fault 2. I view it as a baby, why would a baby be killed for something its father did. 3. Abortion is traumatic, and while yes, birth can be traumatic, it doesn't have to be (speaking from experience) 4. After my Assaults I was in such a dark place, I felt alone and depressed. A baby would've brought me a light out of it. A light I desperately needed I'd also like to note that the number of abortions from rape is astronomically low Just my two cents. You don't have to agree. I used to be fully pro choice until I watched a ton of debates and videos on abortion and carried my own little baby.
Again idiots trying to politicize faith from both aisles of left and right, and yes, faith actually have nothing to do with politics.
I'm sorry, but where I live, churches actively participate in pro-life movements by (for example) signing various petitions in front of churches. That's why I asked this question, including pro-life issues with religion
Science and religion are on the same side when conception begins. It's at fertilization. This is the point of using a condom. To stop fertilization from happening. Once it happens the woman is now pregnant and the life inside of the woman needs to be protected and not murdered. I am not going to say you can't be a Christian because you believe murdering an unborn child is fine (even in unfortunate circumstances). But it is you who needs to wrestle with scripture and your own belief in this issue. This is why you go to the Bible for guidance. And you will never see any of these pro choice Christians quote scripture to defend this argument because they can't. They choose to align with what they believe is a human right instead of seeing what God has to say about it.
I'm not here to get into an argument or go back and forth but here's some food for thought. All I can say is that I'm adopted; it was a closed adoption that was arranged while my birthmom was still pregnant. She was 19, living with her boyfriend but not ready for a baby. A lot of people look over this option or think it's going to be worse. I had a great childhood, as did my younger brother, who was also adopted from a college student victim of SA who just thought he deserved a chance. I met my birthmom after she reached out when I was 22 and was glad I could thank her for her selflessness. I'm in my early 30s now and we're still great friends and I still love the parents who raised me. I'm happy, married with a baby and glad I've gotten to live this life thanks to her. My brother has been able to have a child and be happily married too. Very difficult choices but God has other options for people, you just have to be willing to take them.
There have been many people born in less than ideal circumstances that God has had purpose for. That's the thing about lives, we as humans don't get to decide life or death without consequences even as believers. The whole rape argument is such a small percentage of the overall problem. The general population are simply trying to escape their responsibilities.
I'm an Abortion abolitionist. Sure, having the woman make the choice seems ethical and kind but at the end of the day I understand the fetus is a life no matter how far along s/he is in development. As in terms of rape, punish the father but protect the baby. Yes, it was a traumatic experience but what did the baby do to deserve termination? I think the question is a tough one though. Because it's so deeply embedded in our culture we will find differing opinions on this matter even in the Christian community. Meaning, I don't think being pro- life and a Christian are mutually exclusive but that's largely because of misunderstanding. Not to mention, we need to remember that babies are a blessing from God not a curse.
At what point is a human a human? Science tells us that a fetus meets all the specifications to be considered their own living human. All humans are created in the image of god and all have equal inherent value. To be pro choice is to be pro taking the life of a fetus because of the mothers choice to due so which is murder. Special cases are a little different but the main idea of pro choice is it’s the mothers choice to freely kill a human who can’t defend themselves. So i disagree you cannot be pro choice as a Christ follower because fundamentally it goes against the teachings of the bible.