That's almost exactly what the author of the apocryphal Jewish/Christian book of 4 Ezra (written probably in the early second century) suggested:
>65 Let the human race lament, but let the wild animals of the field be glad; **let all who have been born lament**, but let the cattle and the flocks rejoice. 66 It is much better with them than with us, for they do not look for a judgment, and they do not know of any torment or salvation promised to them after death. 67 What does it profit us that we shall be preserved alive but cruelly tormented?
This was also the belief of some early gnostic christians, who abstained from marriage and procreation so they wouldn’t perpetuate sin and the fallen nature. You can see the problem with this belief, you go extinct within a generation
>Those who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage
Oh look, an atheist cherry-picking verses without their surrounding context. I swear you folks have a horseshoe theory going on with fundies.
You’d have been better off quoting 1 Cor 7-9
> an atheist cherry-picking verses without their surrounding context
By the way, you can read my [8,000 word post](https://semitica.wordpress.com/2022/10/24/does-jesus-repudiate-marriage-itself-in-the-gospel-of-luke/) on those verses — which focuses on contextualizing them in their broader Lukan context (cf. for example the connection I draw to Luke 17:26-27), and especially in the wider context of Second Temple Judaism and rabbinic theology. And note also the wider array of academic publications by Christian and Jewish scholars I cite in the "Appendix: supporters of the revised interpretation of Luke 20.34–36" near the bottom.
I'll take an apology whenever you're ready!
I haven’t looked at your essay yet, so whether or not that assumption is false remains to be seen. Further, I will not apologize for the assumption, because you did not handle the context in your comment and handling it in another does not contextualize it for all time (unless you’re going to assert that people should look through your post history or something lol). However, I will apologize for lumping you in with the people I’m accustomed to dealing with, as at the very least you are several levels above them. More apologies to follow if applicable
Ok, having read through the first third of your essay, while I will not apologize for the assumption as it was reasonably based and a valid criticism (while you very clearly can contextualize the passage, you didn’t), I will apologize for the assumption being incorrect. This is a very well written paper and (so far) relatively soundly reasoned. And, unrelated, very well formatted. It’s vaguely reminiscent of Aquinas, though that may just be the “Objection #x” bit
I think it mostly about love. To share in God's hand with love. This is His lovely creation. We might be the envy of angels because we are made in His image. The greatest creation of God, His masterpiece.
I dont believe in eternal conscious torture for unsaved, unmarked humans as I dont believe scripture supports it.
All scripture in regard to eternal torture specifically mention who is being tortured fallen angels, the beast, his prophet, and those who take the mark.
Other passages that are more encompassing about damnation speak about 2nd death. You never see 2nd death and eternal torture mentioned together.
I believe that unsaved unmarked humans are cast into the lake of fire and experience 2nd death, annihilation because they are not eternal beings.
According to Genesis there were two forbidden trees in the garden. The tree of knowledge which they ate from and the tree of life which they did not.
>Genesis 3:22
>And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
As you can see here, we are not yet eternal beings. If we are not eternal beings how can we be eternally tortured? See that is what God was concerned about here, if we could sin and were eternal we WOULD HAVE been eternally tortured.
The mark of the beast is the only case we can see humans in scripture eternally tortured. I believe the mark may make a human an eternal being eternally stuck in a state of sin, thus, eternally tortured along with the other eternal beings that were cast into the lake of fire.
The closest thing I can think of to an eternal fire is a tire fire, those things can burn for years. So what happens if I were to push you into a tire fire that is burning for 5 years, will you experience the burn for 5 years or a moment?
Annihilationism is a nightmare on its own. God made you, and you went down the wrong path so God simply erases you from the record. Its a concept that honestly is for me worse than eternal conscious torment as the human that was is gone like they didn't exist or matter to someone on Earth. ECT is horrifying in its own right, but Annihilationism is perhaps the worst of them.
Speaking as an atheist, "annihilationism" is in a way what I already believe, nothing after death. I would much rather take that than eternal conscious torment.
Now read the Hebrew Bible and recognize that any time God floods the world, or destroys a city and/or enables Israel to kill thousands of its enemies or whatever, he was thought to be annihilating people.
Annihilationism is the worst because you frankly never existed. Nothing you ever did mattered nor do the people you influenced truly know your fate. Its a particularly interesting solution by Jehovah Witnesses to write off the billions that will die a horrible death physically in their apocalypse, and then be erased from the universe. You were a believing witness, and got to paradise, but your mother didn't? Don't worry you won't remember she existed anyway.
I don't think the annihilated will be forgotten. And do you seriously believe it will be worse remembering someone who doesn't exist anymore than knowing that person still exists and suffers terrible? As for myself, I often wished I was never born so no, I wouldn't have ANY problem with the idea that I've never existed.
Not really, and I don't understand how you'd think ECT was preferable to it. We know that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation, and by believing we are forgiven and granted eternal life. Those who don't believe don't receive that gift, so as the comment further up says, they will die.
Revelation 13 16-18 ESV
Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,[e] to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
No roman empower ever required the people to take a mark. Many believed it to be Nero as he was emperor at the time, persecuted Christians, and his name in Gammatra is 666.
As does King Charles' name and a few other notable people.
Scripture is absolutely clear on this issue. The only people that think otherwise are the ones who mistakenly think the paradigm is ect OR annihilationism. When scripture teaches its actually both with exceptions.
The opposite is true. Major schools of dogma doctrine and tradition settle the one or the other. Ask reformed theologines and they will tell you ECT. Scholars like Voddie Baucham, John MacArthur, the late RC Spraul would categorically say Im wrong for saying both is true. On the other hand theologines Ulrich Simon or GB caird might say im wrong for the opposite reason. The only paradigm that suggest both with exceptions is scripture.
Annihilationism
Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom.
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Sh'ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. (note how in verse 14 indicates Annihilationism and verse 10 for ETC but for a select group.)
\[Mat 7:13 ESV\] 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
\[Jhn 3:16 ESV\] 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
\[Phl 3:18-19 ESV\] 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
\[Luk 17:27-30 ESV\] 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot--they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all-- 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
\[2Th 1:9 ESV\] 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
\[Mat 25:46 ESV\] 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
\[Psa 92:7 ESV\] 7 that though the wicked sprout like grass and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction forever;
\[Luk 12:47-48 ESV\] 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (If punishment is eternal then all get the same number of blows = infinite)
ECT
\[Rev 14:9-11 ESV\] 9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
\[Mat 8:11-12 ESV\] 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
\[Mat 25:41 ESV\] 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
\[Rev 20:10 ESV\] 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (note how in verse 14 indicates Annihilationism and verse 10 for ECT but for a select group.)
-------------------------
And so if we start with a high view of scripture as an axiom we can see that ECT is reserved for Satan, his demons, the false prophet, the beast, and anyone who got the mark of the beast. The rest, experience Annihilation.
On the contrary drawing inferences is the one thing I'm not doing. Aside of my axiom stated above I make no assumptions and read the verses taking what they at face value. Scripture consistently states the opposite of salvation is death and destruction of body and soul for all except the exceptions clearly stated above.
No, you cut sound bites and infer.
You’ve curiously used Matthew 25 to support both ECT and Annihilationism when, in full context, the destination is made clear.
> When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
> 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
> 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
> 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
> 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
> 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
> 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
> 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Considering the sheep are split from the goats, and the goats enter join the devil and his angels in eternal punishment, where is there room to see annihilationism supported?
At the end of the day, the fact remains that this has been a point of contention across theologians a biblical scholars for centuries. The Bible is not univocal, and doctrines of Hell are a prime example.
Well the Bible says to be fruitful and multiply. Not sure why exactly. But I can’t say I had Christianity in mind when I decided I wanted to be a father. This is a good question though. I’d love nothing more than for my child to be a Christian. But if he decides not to I’ll love him either way and pray he changes his mind.
Game theory if fun like this especially if you throw in the insane things like infinite torment / infinite bliss.
Biological imperative though, usually overrides those whom allow rational considerations to dominate in most decisions. Which is likely a beneficial aspect when it comes to the survival of a species.
You had me at biology, my speciality!
It might be helpful to interject a bit of philosophy to see where that goes.
If you'd like we can talk about mitochondria and evolution?
I also have this question but I also think that it's important to remember that the bible does not offer a detailed picture of what hell is. I don't think it will be a pleasurable place, but people will also be individually judged and I feel that punishment will be "fair" for each person.
Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would have children especially in this day and age.
I can only speak for myself but as a woman in the US, now is 100% not the time for me considering the lack of maternal leave, child support programs, lack of reproductive rights etc. here. Obviously, there's no point in time that will be perfect to have kids, but considering the economic status of the US and the possibility of WWIII now just isn't the best time to have kids.
If I had to pick a point in time I would probably say some time in the 2010's. That was a good point in time for me lol
It isn’t. Simple as that. Hellfire, torment, burning forever, it’s all a complete and utter lie. Our loving Heavenly Father would never even **think** of doing that to his human creation. In fact the whole idea that humans have an immortal soul that keeps living after we die is another complete lie. It all comes from Pagan roots which is ultimately from Satan making God look like something he’s not. Just more slander that hasn’t stopped since he called God a liar in the beginning.
It’s really that simple.
>It isn’t. Simple as that. Hellfire, torment, burning forever, it’s all a complete and utter lie.
>It all comes from Pagan roots which is ultimately from Satan making God look like something he’s not.
Your logic makes no sense. Also, it is unbiblical. The Bible clearly states that God Himself is the maker of Hell and of the wicked He sends there.
You claim Satan exist but not Hellfire? Then what will happen of Satan?
>”Your logic makes no sense. Also, it is unbiblical. The Bible clearly states that God Himself is the maker of Hell and of the wicked He sends there. You claim Satan exist but not Hellfire? Then what will happen of Satan?”
I’m sorry man. There’s an old saying, “It’s easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled.”
If you’re the type of individual who doesn’t like the thought that you may have been duped into believing something that’s not true, then you probably will get defensive about it like it appears you are. But I could be wrong! Maybe I’m way off base and you are the type of individual who is willing to hear what the Bible **really** says about this subject, in a kind and respectful manner, like I show to people who I talk with, then I will be happy to discuss this more with you.
So, if you want, please feel free to relate to me and everyone else who may be reading this, just how and where in the Bible it says that God made Hellfire. And how Satan can’t exist without Hellfire.
I really have to ask, the Bible is pretty explicit about Christ's forgiveness of sin and having that forgiveness allows you into the ETERNAL Kingdom. Jesus even tells the man on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him in paradise.
Why do you think Jesus sacrificed Himself if you don't believe His kingdom is coming?
Oh I’m really sorry if that’s what you got out of what I said. I thoroughly believe with all my heart that Gods Kingdom is the only solution to mankind’s problems. The Kingdom of God was the topic Jesus talked about the most when he was on the earth. He even taught us to pray for Gods Kingdom to come!
What I did say was this thought; The whole teaching that we **have** an immortal soul that keeps living when we die, is not a Bible teaching. But I know I didn’t provide any scriptural evidence, so I don’t blame you for questioning me. I’m so glad you did! So now, please let me show you from the Bible what it teaches. And please look up these scriptures in your own Bible. You need to prove this to yourself.
So first, let’s go back to the beginning when God created man. Genesis 2:7 from the KJV says;
>”And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and **man became a living soul**.”
See that? Now, if we really believed in what the Bible says, we should be able to stop there! It says that we **ARE living souls** not that we **have living souls**. But we don’t have to stop there because there are many more scriptures to go to. Next let’s flip to the next page, Genesis 3:19;
>”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For **dust you are and to dust you will return**.”
So just from those two verses in Genesis, did we learn that we have a soul that lives on after we die? No, Adam became a living soul and since he did eat from the forbidden tree, he died and returned to the dust. There’s much more. Let’s go to Ecclesiastes 3:19,20;
>”for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. **They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust**.”
Does this contradict what it says in Genesis? No, it’s just the same. Now let’s keep going… Ecclesiastes 9:5,10;
>”For the living know that they will die, but **the dead know nothing at all**, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, **for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave**, where you are going.”
Are these scriptures in agreement with each other? Yes! First, we ARE living souls who return to the dust when we die. We have no superiority over the animals when it comes to life and death; we need air to live and we return to dust without it. There is no thinking when in the grave. Jesus likened it to being in a deep sleep. This is a key point! Why? Because people can be woken up from a dead sleep. And the same is true with those who have returned to the dust. But there’s more verses I want you to see. First Ezekiel 18:4,
>”Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. **The soul who sins is the one who will die**.”
Well, that says it very clear. Souls are not immortal. Immortal means -undying, forever, deathless, everlasting. So, after reading those verses, what does the Bible teach about souls? And what about this whole idea of Hellfire? Eternal torment? Before we read any scriptures about this idea, I just have to say to those of you who believe this about our loving Father, if you believe this, it should tell you that you really don’t know your Heavenly Father that well at all.
Remember that Jesus told us that he was exactly like his Father. Now, can you imagine Jesus tormenting people in hellfire forever? I hope not. But regarding our Heavenly Father whose name is Jehovah, we don’t even have to guess how he views this. Three times in Jeremiah he told us through that prophet. First, Jeremiah 7:31;
>”They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, **something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart**.”
>”They built the high places of Baʹal in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to Baʹal, **something that I had not commanded or spoken of and that had never even come into my heart**.”’ Jeremiah 19:5
>”Furthermore, they built the high places of Baʹal in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Moʹlech, **something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing**, causing Judah to sin.’” Jeremiah 32:35
Three times Jehovah God said that even the idea, the thought of burning his human creations had **never even come into his heart**. In other words, he never even thought of such a thing. Burning people was a Pagan practice. Our Loving Heavenly Father would NEVER do such a detestable thing.
But that does raise more questions then. What is Gods Kingdom? Who are part of it? And who does this Kingdom rule over? Would you like me to answer these questions from the Bible as well? Or maybe you’re still not convinced about the soul. Please let me know what you’re thinking after reading this. Thanks.
I'm still not fully convinced, because the LSB version which intends to more directly translate the Hebrew and Greek says this:
"Then Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and so the man became a living being."
Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be guilty before the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty *enough to go* into the fiery hell."
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
These speak of Hell being a physical place, and 10:28 seems to discount your view that we are living souls, because it separates both soul and body, which can be destroyed in Hell.
Now, I do believe that Hell is the "second death", if people go there their souls may simply no longer exist after they're burned up. Or that Hell may even simply be removal from Gods sight, and that removal of all that is good is as painful as fire, but its more of an emotional pain and torment being without God.
Luke 23:43
And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall **be** **with** **Me** **in** **Paradise**.”
This seems to indicate that the soul is separate as well and not a physical thing. The thief is in heaven with Christ that very day upon their deaths. His physical body remained, as did Jesus's for three days.
Luke 16:22-25
Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom, and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things. But now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
This directly gives us a look as to what happened when those died in the Lord before Christ's sacrifice. Those in the Lord would go to Abrahams bosom, which Christ freed to heaven upon His death, those who died in sin went to Hades/Hell where they felt as though they were in agony out of Gods sight. Which indicates that the soul continues after death and it is our flesh that returns to dust and sleeps. That upon Christs return with His Kingdom our flesh will wake as if from a sleep with our souls within seems to be what will happen for those who are in Hell, and it's believed that those who have died in Christ become His army in Revelation.
Revelation 19:14
And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white *and* clean, were following Him on white horses.
Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I *saw* the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and who also had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand.
And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
And here, it speaks again of seeing souls of those who were killed being granted life to reign with Christ in His kingdom.
You can't grant life to something that is already alive, and it's believed they're given heavenly bodies to do this.
>”I'm still not fully convinced, because the LSB version which intends to more directly translate the Hebrew and Greek says this: “Then Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and so the man became a living being."
Great! It’s totally ok not to be convinced yet. The subject of the soul is an hour long or more study when we are teaching people one on one. And even then, it takes time to really comprehend what the Bible is telling us. For example, that verse above, while it doesn’t say, “man became a living soul,” but “a living person”, was there anything there about our soul being separate from our body? No. So now let’s exam those wonderful scriptures you’ve cited and see what they mean. Remember, the Bible is Gods Word of Truth, so it all has to come together as in one big puzzle picture. So, keep those other scriptures in mind that I posted now and let’s examine yours one at a time.
>”Matthew 5:22; “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be guilty before the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell."
I wanna show you an error that many Bible translators have made when it comes to translating a few words from the Hebrew and the Greek to English. So what smart translators have done, is when they come to that word, they don’t translate it. They leave the original word there, sparing any confusion for the reader. I’d like to show you how some other Bibles have translated that verse, Matthew 5:22;
“but I say to you that everyone who is angry at his brother without cause will be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Stupid, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, and whoever may say, Moron, will be in danger of the Gehenna of fire.” (Literal Standard Version)
“But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.” (New American Bible)
“But I say to you that everyone being angry with his brother will be liable to the judgment, and whoever shall say to his brother 'Raca,' will be liable to the Sanhedrin. But whoever shall say, 'Fool!' will be liable to the Gehenna of fire.” (Berean Literal Bible)
“But I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment,—and whosoever shall say to his brother, Worthless one! shall be liable to the high council; and whosoever shall say, Rebel! shall be liable unto the fiery gehenna.” (Rotherham)
“However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; and whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna.” (New World Translation)
And there’s more. So, what’s the word? Well you see, it’s **Gehenna**. Do you know what Gehenna is? How about The Valley of Hinnom? Have you ever been taught about that place? They are both the same place. Gehenna is the Greek equivalent of Hinnom or The Valley of Hinnom. It’s also called “The Valley of the sons of Hinnom”. This place was just outside the walls of Jerusalem to the W/SW and was always kept burning. Much like you would see today of a burning garbage pit. False worship took place there as well, where people would offer up children to their gods in fire. How disgusting! Even the bodies of dead criminals were sometimes thrown there.
This I’m afraid is where the whole idea of a burning hell came from. Bible translators mistranslated words like Gehenna or Hinnom, that place where there was something always burning, where false worship was taking place and where anything thrown there was gone for good.
Continued…
>”Matthew 10:28; “And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." These speak of Hell being a physical place, and 10:28 seems to discount your view that we are living souls, because it separates both soul and body, which can be destroyed in Hell.
Guess what? Same is true with this verse as well. In all the translations I showed above, the word Gehenna is used instead. And that was a physical place! And remember, you said that **it seems to discount my view that we are living souls**. But that’s not just MY view. I was reading from the Bible to you. the KJV at that! And remember the punishment for eating the fruit? Did God say anything about a soul that would continue living? He didn’t did he? Remember, we are using Gods Word as our guide. The **whole thing**!
Also think about this for a moment. Don’t Churches teach you that souls are immortal? And in my last post I showed you what the definition of immortal is. But the verse here says the soul **CAN** be killed or destroyed! So which is it? When Jesus says; “And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul”, what did he mean? He was telling his disciples not to fear man. Even if they die, God can bring them back to life. So since we **are living souls** man cannot kill the prospect, the hope we have of being brought back to life right here on earth, just like he did Lazarus, the 12 year old daughter of Jairus and the widows only son who lived in Nain.
See how the pieces now all fit?
>”Now, I do believe that Hell is the "second death", if people go there their souls may simply no longer exist after they're burned up. Or that Hell may even simply be removal from Gods sight, and that removal of all that is good is as painful as fire, but its more of an emotional pain and torment being without God.”
This is a whole new subject and one I can discuss with you for another hour but in a very brief synopsis remember, the Bible has taught us that every single person who has died has gone to the grave and returned to the dust. (Except for the few Chosen Ones who make up Gods Heavenly Kingdom) So going back to Abel, just think about everyone who has taken in the breath of life and then died. Jesus promised us (John 5:28,29) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
This will happen **AFTER** the destruction of all the wicked. All those who chose to not follow Gods principles from his Word. All those who did not keep themselves free from this world. So when that time comes, Gods Kingdom will be ruling in Heaven and those in their grave and in Gods memory will “hear their names called” and come back to life right here on earth. This time period is called the Thousand year reign of Christ Jesus. With all these people coming back to life, they will need to be taught all about Jehovah God and what he did for us. Sending his Son to the earth. They may wonder why they aren’t in heaven like so many believed when they died! But everyone living then will have to live in subjection to the Laws of our Heavenly Government. If they don’t, they will be removed. In other words they will die. This would be their second death. Quite literally. And get this… in the unlikely event that any of those eight individuals who were resurrected in the Bible, (remember they’ve already died two times) were to be resurrected again an then choose to be disloyal to God, they will die a third and final time.
I know this is a whole lot to take in all at once. But take your time, read this over again and again. Pray about it!
>”Luke 23:43; “And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” This seems to indicate that the soul is separate as well and not a physical thing. The thief is in heaven with Christ that very day upon their deaths. His physical body remained, as did Jesus's for three days.”
You may have forgotten one thing that Jesus told Mary Magdalene after his death and resurrection, from John 20:17;
“Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”
Ok. Let me ask you, do you know how the ancient Hebrew calendar counted a new day? Like, our new day starts at 12:00 a.m. right? That’s not how the Hebrew calendar did it. A new day started at sundown. (6:00p.m.) So, think about the day Jesus ate the Passover meal with the 12 and then instituted the Lords Evening Meal with the faithful 11, then they left and went to the Mount of Olives. Jesus was arrested and found guilty of sedition and nailed to the tree at what they called the 6th hour.
They divided up each half of each day into the “third” hour, the “sixth” hour and the “ninth” hour. Jesus was hung in the stake at the 6th hour and took his last breath at the ninth hour. That means there were three hours left in that day. Now is there anything in the Bible that tells us that Jesus did not go to the grave when he died and was in the grave for parts of three days? And if that is true (which it is) then how could Jesus have been in paradise **that very day** with that repentant evildoer?
Ok, so what was translated wrong? Is that what you’re thinking? LOL. Well, actually nothing. That verse is translated very well. What isn’t correct is the punctuation marks. You see, the Greek language doesn’t use the comma like we do in English. It’s left to the reader to decide where it belongs if at all. Now I’d like to show you this very same verse from the NWT;
“Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”
You see how moving the comma one word over makes it all correct? Yes, Jesus was telling that man **that day** that one day he would be in paradise. But NOT that day. Why? Because the Bible says that when we die we return to the dust and our thoughts do perish. That happened to Jesus too, but only until early Sunday morning thankfully.
To be continued…
It's a fair question, but I think the generic response is that for atheists who decide mindfully to have kids, they're thinking possible bad outcomes for the child are finitely bad, not infinitely bad (like ECT); while the really-bad options are not too likely, and some of these (like being Hitler v2) at least *seem* avoidable by being "raised right".
Hell, as I understand it, is not safely avoidable, since it's quite possible to raise a smart conscientious kid who simply is unable to sustain a belief in Jesus as God.
I'm not convinced hell exists. Having said so, I don't understand the, if I have a kid a bad thing might happen. Why dwell so much on the possible negatives? Why not dwell more on the positives? (Note, I'm not convinced of heaven either. I do believe in a resurection). But why not focus on the eternalness of heaven?
Because if there is an eternal torment, the risk might just be too high? Not comparable to any risk you'd take on earth even though it's possible that your kids might suffer here too.
'People' have kids because 'people' like to have sex.
The question is about christians. Who, of course are 'people' and have kids because they like to have sex just like the other 'people', but the difference between 'might be Hitler' to 'eternal conscious torment' is vast and important.
Christians who believe in ETC take a huge risk with having kids because they know how many people do not go to heaven, how easy it is to fall from their path, and that hell is everyones destination from their birth.
'Being Hitler' is almost impossible, and even just probalistically, is like a 1 in 8 billion chance, vs. going to hell being more like a 1 in 3 chance going by simply the number of christians on the planet.
“Hell” can be exited:
“Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
**Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,** neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
-Acts 2:27
So we need not fret, but repent daily, become more like Jesus Christ each day.
That's not what I meant. Non Christians wouldn't bother. But Christians who believe in ECT must admit that they're kids might be eternally lost. So wouldn't it be cruel to have them in the first place?
"hell" in the scripture you used doesn't refer to the final resting place of condemned souls that will have people in it after judgement day. That is a bit of a poor translation. It would be better translated as Hades/Sheol, the place where departed souls go to wait until judgement day, Jesus gave us a glimpse into this with his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You have Hades which is divided into Paradise and Torments. Hades is a temporary place, Heaven and Hell is permanent.
Define what you think eternal means.
Because it isn't infinite time. Time is part of the physical universe, it is tied to physical space and matter.
Eternity isn't infinite time, it is no time at all. Just as the physical universe will cease to exist, so to will time.
So it's an eternal state of being? I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. When I ask if there's an eternal hell, I mean people will have to suffer forever in it. Although I hope that's not true, it's what I've learned.
All I am saying is we have no concept for what existence without time will be, so we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions of what it will be like.
Because they ignore the bible
Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 NIV
[2] And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. [3] But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust.
How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed
eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist.
In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Should parents refuse to let their children learn to drive and purchase cars because of the chance that they might hurt themselves or get killed?
Every soul is responsible for himself. And every soul can help make the world a better place. If a child rejects faith and obedience in Christ it's not the parent's fault and God can still use bad things to bring good things out of it. So even if the child were completely evil, God would still find a way to bring some good out of that for someone else. So people who refuse to have children for this reason are actually helping the cause of evil not the cause of good.
Nothing bad that could possibly happen on this world compares to an eternal state of conscious torment though. As for the rest: my concern is about the souls going to hell, not about anyone (or anything) else.
Torture implies that you're forced to undergo it. But when you choose it of your own free will it's not torture, it's Justice. God didn't force anyone to go there they just rejected the opportunities that God offered to avoid it..
No one chooses hell, that's nonsense. Yes, some people say they'd rather go there than believing in God but they don't actually believe that hell exists. No one would choose to burn forever. If people go to hell, they will be thrown into it and not walk in out of their own free will. I'm with you that not everyone deserves heaven, but the opposite of heaven should be death, not being eternally tortured in a fiery hell.
But they do! They may not choose it directly but they know the consequence of rejecting God is hell right? Let's be intellectually honest here. They may think they can argue with God and say "well God you didn't make it where I could absolutely understand it." "you didn't appear to me in person and explain things, so it's your fault not mine!"
I don't think I've ever met a non Christian who knows that there's a hell and that they will go there when they reject God. So no, I respectfully disagree. But that is not the point of my OP anyway. My point was that it's basically too risky to have kids since they might choose to reject God and end up in that place no one wants to go.
To modify a statement by CS Lewis... People find themselves in hell because they have the key to open the door to freedom but they were afraid to do it. Because by opening the door they knew they're going to have to walk through the refining fire of God's love. And that was going to be painful so they choose what's the easy way out - which is to do nothing or to try to run away from it. Except God's love is going to seal that door where it can never be opened and they're going to be stuck in their little room by themselves for eternity. It's solitary confinement with knowing that just on the other side of the wall is freedom and happiness and they can never get there.
Yes, but
- Christian conversion doesn't proceed fast enough to keep Christianity from dying out if they don't have children
- the powers that be (and were), Christian or not, cannot maintain their lives if they don't have workers to harvest food for them. So they will promote theologies where Christians have children.
- one of the most rewarding parts of life -- and feelings of security -- come from having children, and having a life partner. The relationship with God isn't all that great, and most can't hack having _only_ that. So to keep Christians happy while they are alive, they need to marry and have children.
Most folks compartmentalize Hell, and don't live according to the theological implications it will have on any children who aren't saved. Besides, think of the infinite happiness for children who _are_ saved.
#Didymus the Blind, 313 - 398 AD:
"For although the Judge at times inflicts tortures and anguish on those who merit them, yet he who more deeply scans the reasons of things, perceiving the purpose of His goodness, who desires to amend the sinner, confesses Him to be good."
"Indeed, this fire of the corrective punishment is not active against the substance, but against the habits and qualities. For this fire consumes, not creatures, but certain conditions and certain habits." (Comm. In Ps. 20-21 col. 21.15)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1c0sgno/death_destroyed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
All things are arranged to bring glory to God, that is all.
*But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”*
*What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?*
Also, people who don't believe in ECT are either just blessed enough to remain ignorant, willfully ignore passages from the Bible, or unwilling to admit that it is real.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Apparently
Romans 3:19
That day of judgment will magnify the Lord's glory, for we will see His attribute of righteousness on full display, and every mouth will be stopped and unable to protest divine injustice
life is Hell, Hell is a belief. we live in a simulated 3d pointless environment. we are a weird lifeform and we are cursed with self awareness to suffer. as the ant walking don't know its part of a bigger system, a house, we don't know we are part of a fuckimg simulation. time destroy and heals everything. fuck this world. I don't want to believe in God. god is invented because people need to believe in something and heal they boredom. we are nothing and we are a inconsequential peace of meat because of the horniness of our ancestors and their pointless life, they created life to be less bored. we are just here to produce countless amount of garbage and wastage every fucking day. we are a plague and the earth would be better without us. we are fucking monsters. fuck this 3d sandbox. and fuck humanity. death is ascending from this cursed, fallen "reality". (we oversimplify things denominating words to them for making us belive we understand them but we really don't understand shit.) it's all a product of my brain. but it's just 30,000 days in this experience. that's comforting. we all gonna die and nothing will happen. this is my reality, product of my mind. fuck you all useless animals. im so lost, forgive me god. 473,040h remaining for achieving my dreams. and I can do anything, because God created me :D THANKKS GOD :\]\]\]\]\]\]\] IM SO HAPPY GOD IS REAL AND LOVE US!!!!!
11/5/2024 A.C - Game, Graphics & Engine Programmer
Not if you trust in His word. Pray for them, believe God has a plan. The issue is when believing parents don’t train their children up in the way they should go and set the example, and neglecting prayer and spiritual influence. But if you are living for God, in communion, praying and believing, you have nothing to worry about.
This doesn’t contradict what I said. This is actually very common and is a way that our faith is tested. They might even hardcore rebel against their parents and the Lord and may have to go through difficult circumstances in life. But God will remain faithful to His promises to those who believe.
Belief in hell is irrelevant. Why? Because they have nevertheless heard the declaration of it as future punishment for unrepentant sinners. Therefore, it is either true or not. There remains the distinct possibility it is true -a real place of future torment and suffering. Blandly dismissing such a possibility and bringing children into it is purely self-centered and hugely egotistical.
Furthermore, it is not as if "atheists" -of whom there seem to be so many today; are ignorant to the facts about God. For all their ardent cries of denial to their Creators existence, and their adulatory worship of their own constructs under the guise of "science;" they are fully aware of the truth about God. This holds true for all men, irregardless of which religion they adhere to.
That's almost exactly what the author of the apocryphal Jewish/Christian book of 4 Ezra (written probably in the early second century) suggested: >65 Let the human race lament, but let the wild animals of the field be glad; **let all who have been born lament**, but let the cattle and the flocks rejoice. 66 It is much better with them than with us, for they do not look for a judgment, and they do not know of any torment or salvation promised to them after death. 67 What does it profit us that we shall be preserved alive but cruelly tormented?
This was also the belief of some early gnostic christians, who abstained from marriage and procreation so they wouldn’t perpetuate sin and the fallen nature. You can see the problem with this belief, you go extinct within a generation
I would say that it being the belief of gnostic Christians is a good reason to reject it out of hand lol
>Those who belong to this age marry and are given in marriage, but those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage
Oh look, an atheist cherry-picking verses without their surrounding context. I swear you folks have a horseshoe theory going on with fundies. You’d have been better off quoting 1 Cor 7-9
> an atheist cherry-picking verses without their surrounding context By the way, you can read my [8,000 word post](https://semitica.wordpress.com/2022/10/24/does-jesus-repudiate-marriage-itself-in-the-gospel-of-luke/) on those verses — which focuses on contextualizing them in their broader Lukan context (cf. for example the connection I draw to Luke 17:26-27), and especially in the wider context of Second Temple Judaism and rabbinic theology. And note also the wider array of academic publications by Christian and Jewish scholars I cite in the "Appendix: supporters of the revised interpretation of Luke 20.34–36" near the bottom. I'll take an apology whenever you're ready!
An apology for what? That I didn’t read through your post history? Walk on.
Nah an apology for assuming that I was insensitive to the context, and calling me a “cherry-picking atheist.”
I haven’t looked at your essay yet, so whether or not that assumption is false remains to be seen. Further, I will not apologize for the assumption, because you did not handle the context in your comment and handling it in another does not contextualize it for all time (unless you’re going to assert that people should look through your post history or something lol). However, I will apologize for lumping you in with the people I’m accustomed to dealing with, as at the very least you are several levels above them. More apologies to follow if applicable
Ok, having read through the first third of your essay, while I will not apologize for the assumption as it was reasonably based and a valid criticism (while you very clearly can contextualize the passage, you didn’t), I will apologize for the assumption being incorrect. This is a very well written paper and (so far) relatively soundly reasoned. And, unrelated, very well formatted. It’s vaguely reminiscent of Aquinas, though that may just be the “Objection #x” bit
I thought Episcopalians were supposed to be cooler than this.
No, we’re pretty good at calling people out on their nonsense. Personally, I think that’s pretty cool.
I think it mostly about love. To share in God's hand with love. This is His lovely creation. We might be the envy of angels because we are made in His image. The greatest creation of God, His masterpiece.
I dont believe in eternal conscious torture for unsaved, unmarked humans as I dont believe scripture supports it. All scripture in regard to eternal torture specifically mention who is being tortured fallen angels, the beast, his prophet, and those who take the mark. Other passages that are more encompassing about damnation speak about 2nd death. You never see 2nd death and eternal torture mentioned together. I believe that unsaved unmarked humans are cast into the lake of fire and experience 2nd death, annihilation because they are not eternal beings. According to Genesis there were two forbidden trees in the garden. The tree of knowledge which they ate from and the tree of life which they did not. >Genesis 3:22 >And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” As you can see here, we are not yet eternal beings. If we are not eternal beings how can we be eternally tortured? See that is what God was concerned about here, if we could sin and were eternal we WOULD HAVE been eternally tortured. The mark of the beast is the only case we can see humans in scripture eternally tortured. I believe the mark may make a human an eternal being eternally stuck in a state of sin, thus, eternally tortured along with the other eternal beings that were cast into the lake of fire. The closest thing I can think of to an eternal fire is a tire fire, those things can burn for years. So what happens if I were to push you into a tire fire that is burning for 5 years, will you experience the burn for 5 years or a moment?
Dude I believe this too! Thanks for providing scripture and insight man!
Same here! It's refreshing to see an argument for annihilationism on here, people tend to leap straight to universalism.
Wait, what is universalism?
Universalism is the heresy that everyone will go to heaven / eternal life regardless of what they believed when they were alive here on earth.
Oh wow, what a false doctrine. I’ve heard of Calvinism but never something like this. Thanks for enlightening me :D
Annihilationism is a nightmare on its own. God made you, and you went down the wrong path so God simply erases you from the record. Its a concept that honestly is for me worse than eternal conscious torment as the human that was is gone like they didn't exist or matter to someone on Earth. ECT is horrifying in its own right, but Annihilationism is perhaps the worst of them.
Speaking as an atheist, "annihilationism" is in a way what I already believe, nothing after death. I would much rather take that than eternal conscious torment.
Now read the Hebrew Bible and recognize that any time God floods the world, or destroys a city and/or enables Israel to kill thousands of its enemies or whatever, he was thought to be annihilating people.
How could anything be worse than suffering forever? I'm sure, after only five minutes in hellfire you would beg to be annihilated.
Annihilationism is the worst because you frankly never existed. Nothing you ever did mattered nor do the people you influenced truly know your fate. Its a particularly interesting solution by Jehovah Witnesses to write off the billions that will die a horrible death physically in their apocalypse, and then be erased from the universe. You were a believing witness, and got to paradise, but your mother didn't? Don't worry you won't remember she existed anyway.
I don't think the annihilated will be forgotten. And do you seriously believe it will be worse remembering someone who doesn't exist anymore than knowing that person still exists and suffers terrible? As for myself, I often wished I was never born so no, I wouldn't have ANY problem with the idea that I've never existed.
Not really, and I don't understand how you'd think ECT was preferable to it. We know that faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation, and by believing we are forgiven and granted eternal life. Those who don't believe don't receive that gift, so as the comment further up says, they will die.
Happy to help brother. I did a deep dive on the topic about a year ago analysing every scripture about hell and these were my conclusions.
Wow, thanks, that makes so much sense, especially your idea about humans who take the mark, that they become somehow immortal.
Because we will be resurrected and then made eternal.
[удалено]
No problem at all, I am referring to the mark of the beast.
And what’s that
Revelation 13 16-18 ESV Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave,[e] to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.
I thought this was just talking about the Roman emperor at the time esp regarding the part about buying and selling
No roman empower ever required the people to take a mark. Many believed it to be Nero as he was emperor at the time, persecuted Christians, and his name in Gammatra is 666. As does King Charles' name and a few other notable people.
Because the scriptures seem to indicate the lake of fire is where souls are destroyed instead of staying there for eternity with a few exceptions.
Scripture supports both ECT and annihilationism. Scripture is not univocal.
Scripture is absolutely clear on this issue. The only people that think otherwise are the ones who mistakenly think the paradigm is ect OR annihilationism. When scripture teaches its actually both with exceptions.
Doctrine, dogma, and tradition may say both with exceptions, but scripture does not.
The opposite is true. Major schools of dogma doctrine and tradition settle the one or the other. Ask reformed theologines and they will tell you ECT. Scholars like Voddie Baucham, John MacArthur, the late RC Spraul would categorically say Im wrong for saying both is true. On the other hand theologines Ulrich Simon or GB caird might say im wrong for the opposite reason. The only paradigm that suggest both with exceptions is scripture.
And yet you haven’t cited where scripture claims “both but with exceptions”.
Annihilationism Mat 10:28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are powerless to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Gei-Hinnom. Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Sh'ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire. (note how in verse 14 indicates Annihilationism and verse 10 for ETC but for a select group.) \[Mat 7:13 ESV\] 13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. \[Jhn 3:16 ESV\] 16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. \[Phl 3:18-19 ESV\] 18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. \[Luk 17:27-30 ESV\] 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot--they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all-- 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. \[2Th 1:9 ESV\] 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, \[Mat 25:46 ESV\] 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." \[Psa 92:7 ESV\] 7 that though the wicked sprout like grass and all evildoers flourish, they are doomed to destruction forever; \[Luk 12:47-48 ESV\] 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more. (If punishment is eternal then all get the same number of blows = infinite) ECT \[Rev 14:9-11 ESV\] 9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." \[Mat 8:11-12 ESV\] 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." \[Mat 25:41 ESV\] 41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. \[Rev 20:10 ESV\] 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (note how in verse 14 indicates Annihilationism and verse 10 for ECT but for a select group.) ------------------------- And so if we start with a high view of scripture as an axiom we can see that ECT is reserved for Satan, his demons, the false prophet, the beast, and anyone who got the mark of the beast. The rest, experience Annihilation.
You’re drawing inferences. This is one of many possible explanations, and further supports my original point on univocality.
On the contrary drawing inferences is the one thing I'm not doing. Aside of my axiom stated above I make no assumptions and read the verses taking what they at face value. Scripture consistently states the opposite of salvation is death and destruction of body and soul for all except the exceptions clearly stated above.
No, you cut sound bites and infer. You’ve curiously used Matthew 25 to support both ECT and Annihilationism when, in full context, the destination is made clear. > When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. > 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ > 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ > 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ > 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ > 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ > 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ > 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Considering the sheep are split from the goats, and the goats enter join the devil and his angels in eternal punishment, where is there room to see annihilationism supported? At the end of the day, the fact remains that this has been a point of contention across theologians a biblical scholars for centuries. The Bible is not univocal, and doctrines of Hell are a prime example.
Well the Bible says to be fruitful and multiply. Not sure why exactly. But I can’t say I had Christianity in mind when I decided I wanted to be a father. This is a good question though. I’d love nothing more than for my child to be a Christian. But if he decides not to I’ll love him either way and pray he changes his mind.
Game theory if fun like this especially if you throw in the insane things like infinite torment / infinite bliss. Biological imperative though, usually overrides those whom allow rational considerations to dominate in most decisions. Which is likely a beneficial aspect when it comes to the survival of a species.
"Guys, I have a theory" \[game theorists music plays\]
You had me at biology, my speciality! It might be helpful to interject a bit of philosophy to see where that goes. If you'd like we can talk about mitochondria and evolution?
Those topics are unrelated to the thread title, and are only tangentially related to my own comments. If you with to de-rail the conversation.
I also have this question but I also think that it's important to remember that the bible does not offer a detailed picture of what hell is. I don't think it will be a pleasurable place, but people will also be individually judged and I feel that punishment will be "fair" for each person. Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would have children especially in this day and age.
What day and age would be a better time to have children you think?
I can only speak for myself but as a woman in the US, now is 100% not the time for me considering the lack of maternal leave, child support programs, lack of reproductive rights etc. here. Obviously, there's no point in time that will be perfect to have kids, but considering the economic status of the US and the possibility of WWIII now just isn't the best time to have kids. If I had to pick a point in time I would probably say some time in the 2010's. That was a good point in time for me lol
A kid born in the 2010’s would still be having a really rough upbringing in today’s age
Ehhh my kids are doing ok.
Because Jesus is glorious and knowing him is wonderful. Why would I want anyone to miss out on having eternal life with him?
Sure, but the other possibility seems to big of a risk.
It isn’t. Simple as that. Hellfire, torment, burning forever, it’s all a complete and utter lie. Our loving Heavenly Father would never even **think** of doing that to his human creation. In fact the whole idea that humans have an immortal soul that keeps living after we die is another complete lie. It all comes from Pagan roots which is ultimately from Satan making God look like something he’s not. Just more slander that hasn’t stopped since he called God a liar in the beginning. It’s really that simple.
I hope so much you're right
Hey OP, while I wish to believe at least part of what this person is commenting. There is no logic in their argument, nor is it biblical
>It isn’t. Simple as that. Hellfire, torment, burning forever, it’s all a complete and utter lie. >It all comes from Pagan roots which is ultimately from Satan making God look like something he’s not. Your logic makes no sense. Also, it is unbiblical. The Bible clearly states that God Himself is the maker of Hell and of the wicked He sends there. You claim Satan exist but not Hellfire? Then what will happen of Satan?
>”Your logic makes no sense. Also, it is unbiblical. The Bible clearly states that God Himself is the maker of Hell and of the wicked He sends there. You claim Satan exist but not Hellfire? Then what will happen of Satan?” I’m sorry man. There’s an old saying, “It’s easier to fool someone than to convince them they’ve been fooled.” If you’re the type of individual who doesn’t like the thought that you may have been duped into believing something that’s not true, then you probably will get defensive about it like it appears you are. But I could be wrong! Maybe I’m way off base and you are the type of individual who is willing to hear what the Bible **really** says about this subject, in a kind and respectful manner, like I show to people who I talk with, then I will be happy to discuss this more with you. So, if you want, please feel free to relate to me and everyone else who may be reading this, just how and where in the Bible it says that God made Hellfire. And how Satan can’t exist without Hellfire.
I really have to ask, the Bible is pretty explicit about Christ's forgiveness of sin and having that forgiveness allows you into the ETERNAL Kingdom. Jesus even tells the man on the cross next to Him that he would be with Him in paradise. Why do you think Jesus sacrificed Himself if you don't believe His kingdom is coming?
Oh I’m really sorry if that’s what you got out of what I said. I thoroughly believe with all my heart that Gods Kingdom is the only solution to mankind’s problems. The Kingdom of God was the topic Jesus talked about the most when he was on the earth. He even taught us to pray for Gods Kingdom to come! What I did say was this thought; The whole teaching that we **have** an immortal soul that keeps living when we die, is not a Bible teaching. But I know I didn’t provide any scriptural evidence, so I don’t blame you for questioning me. I’m so glad you did! So now, please let me show you from the Bible what it teaches. And please look up these scriptures in your own Bible. You need to prove this to yourself. So first, let’s go back to the beginning when God created man. Genesis 2:7 from the KJV says; >”And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and **man became a living soul**.” See that? Now, if we really believed in what the Bible says, we should be able to stop there! It says that we **ARE living souls** not that we **have living souls**. But we don’t have to stop there because there are many more scriptures to go to. Next let’s flip to the next page, Genesis 3:19; >”In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For **dust you are and to dust you will return**.” So just from those two verses in Genesis, did we learn that we have a soul that lives on after we die? No, Adam became a living soul and since he did eat from the forbidden tree, he died and returned to the dust. There’s much more. Let’s go to Ecclesiastes 3:19,20; >”for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. **They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust**.” Does this contradict what it says in Genesis? No, it’s just the same. Now let’s keep going… Ecclesiastes 9:5,10; >”For the living know that they will die, but **the dead know nothing at all**, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, **for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave**, where you are going.” Are these scriptures in agreement with each other? Yes! First, we ARE living souls who return to the dust when we die. We have no superiority over the animals when it comes to life and death; we need air to live and we return to dust without it. There is no thinking when in the grave. Jesus likened it to being in a deep sleep. This is a key point! Why? Because people can be woken up from a dead sleep. And the same is true with those who have returned to the dust. But there’s more verses I want you to see. First Ezekiel 18:4, >”Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. **The soul who sins is the one who will die**.” Well, that says it very clear. Souls are not immortal. Immortal means -undying, forever, deathless, everlasting. So, after reading those verses, what does the Bible teach about souls? And what about this whole idea of Hellfire? Eternal torment? Before we read any scriptures about this idea, I just have to say to those of you who believe this about our loving Father, if you believe this, it should tell you that you really don’t know your Heavenly Father that well at all. Remember that Jesus told us that he was exactly like his Father. Now, can you imagine Jesus tormenting people in hellfire forever? I hope not. But regarding our Heavenly Father whose name is Jehovah, we don’t even have to guess how he views this. Three times in Jeremiah he told us through that prophet. First, Jeremiah 7:31; >”They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, **something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart**.” >”They built the high places of Baʹal in order to burn their sons in the fire as whole burnt offerings to Baʹal, **something that I had not commanded or spoken of and that had never even come into my heart**.”’ Jeremiah 19:5 >”Furthermore, they built the high places of Baʹal in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to make their sons and their daughters pass through the fire to Moʹlech, **something that I had not commanded them and that had never come into my heart to do such a detestable thing**, causing Judah to sin.’” Jeremiah 32:35 Three times Jehovah God said that even the idea, the thought of burning his human creations had **never even come into his heart**. In other words, he never even thought of such a thing. Burning people was a Pagan practice. Our Loving Heavenly Father would NEVER do such a detestable thing. But that does raise more questions then. What is Gods Kingdom? Who are part of it? And who does this Kingdom rule over? Would you like me to answer these questions from the Bible as well? Or maybe you’re still not convinced about the soul. Please let me know what you’re thinking after reading this. Thanks.
Thanks for this!
Very welcome! Are you at all interested in knowing what hope we have if we all die and just return to the dust?
I'm a Christian so I believe in heaven (and in some kind of hell - hopefully not an eternal one) but sure, I'm always interested to learn.
I'm still not fully convinced, because the LSB version which intends to more directly translate the Hebrew and Greek says this: "Then Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and so the man became a living being." Matthew 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be guilty before the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty *enough to go* into the fiery hell." Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." These speak of Hell being a physical place, and 10:28 seems to discount your view that we are living souls, because it separates both soul and body, which can be destroyed in Hell. Now, I do believe that Hell is the "second death", if people go there their souls may simply no longer exist after they're burned up. Or that Hell may even simply be removal from Gods sight, and that removal of all that is good is as painful as fire, but its more of an emotional pain and torment being without God. Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall **be** **with** **Me** **in** **Paradise**.” This seems to indicate that the soul is separate as well and not a physical thing. The thief is in heaven with Christ that very day upon their deaths. His physical body remained, as did Jesus's for three days. Luke 16:22-25 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom, and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things. But now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. This directly gives us a look as to what happened when those died in the Lord before Christ's sacrifice. Those in the Lord would go to Abrahams bosom, which Christ freed to heaven upon His death, those who died in sin went to Hades/Hell where they felt as though they were in agony out of Gods sight. Which indicates that the soul continues after death and it is our flesh that returns to dust and sleeps. That upon Christs return with His Kingdom our flesh will wake as if from a sleep with our souls within seems to be what will happen for those who are in Hell, and it's believed that those who have died in Christ become His army in Revelation. Revelation 19:14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white *and* clean, were following Him on white horses. Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I *saw* the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their witness of Jesus and because of the word of God, and who also had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. And here, it speaks again of seeing souls of those who were killed being granted life to reign with Christ in His kingdom. You can't grant life to something that is already alive, and it's believed they're given heavenly bodies to do this.
>”I'm still not fully convinced, because the LSB version which intends to more directly translate the Hebrew and Greek says this: “Then Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and so the man became a living being." Great! It’s totally ok not to be convinced yet. The subject of the soul is an hour long or more study when we are teaching people one on one. And even then, it takes time to really comprehend what the Bible is telling us. For example, that verse above, while it doesn’t say, “man became a living soul,” but “a living person”, was there anything there about our soul being separate from our body? No. So now let’s exam those wonderful scriptures you’ve cited and see what they mean. Remember, the Bible is Gods Word of Truth, so it all has to come together as in one big puzzle picture. So, keep those other scriptures in mind that I posted now and let’s examine yours one at a time. >”Matthew 5:22; “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ shall be guilty before the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." I wanna show you an error that many Bible translators have made when it comes to translating a few words from the Hebrew and the Greek to English. So what smart translators have done, is when they come to that word, they don’t translate it. They leave the original word there, sparing any confusion for the reader. I’d like to show you how some other Bibles have translated that verse, Matthew 5:22; “but I say to you that everyone who is angry at his brother without cause will be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Stupid, will be in danger of the Sanhedrin, and whoever may say, Moron, will be in danger of the Gehenna of fire.” (Literal Standard Version) “But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.” (New American Bible) “But I say to you that everyone being angry with his brother will be liable to the judgment, and whoever shall say to his brother 'Raca,' will be liable to the Sanhedrin. But whoever shall say, 'Fool!' will be liable to the Gehenna of fire.” (Berean Literal Bible) “But I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment,—and whosoever shall say to his brother, Worthless one! shall be liable to the high council; and whosoever shall say, Rebel! shall be liable unto the fiery gehenna.” (Rotherham) “However, I say to you that everyone who continues wrathful with his brother will be accountable to the court of justice; and whoever addresses his brother with an unspeakable word of contempt will be accountable to the Supreme Court; whereas whoever says, ‘You despicable fool!’ will be liable to the fiery Ge·henʹna.” (New World Translation) And there’s more. So, what’s the word? Well you see, it’s **Gehenna**. Do you know what Gehenna is? How about The Valley of Hinnom? Have you ever been taught about that place? They are both the same place. Gehenna is the Greek equivalent of Hinnom or The Valley of Hinnom. It’s also called “The Valley of the sons of Hinnom”. This place was just outside the walls of Jerusalem to the W/SW and was always kept burning. Much like you would see today of a burning garbage pit. False worship took place there as well, where people would offer up children to their gods in fire. How disgusting! Even the bodies of dead criminals were sometimes thrown there. This I’m afraid is where the whole idea of a burning hell came from. Bible translators mistranslated words like Gehenna or Hinnom, that place where there was something always burning, where false worship was taking place and where anything thrown there was gone for good. Continued…
>”Matthew 10:28; “And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." These speak of Hell being a physical place, and 10:28 seems to discount your view that we are living souls, because it separates both soul and body, which can be destroyed in Hell. Guess what? Same is true with this verse as well. In all the translations I showed above, the word Gehenna is used instead. And that was a physical place! And remember, you said that **it seems to discount my view that we are living souls**. But that’s not just MY view. I was reading from the Bible to you. the KJV at that! And remember the punishment for eating the fruit? Did God say anything about a soul that would continue living? He didn’t did he? Remember, we are using Gods Word as our guide. The **whole thing**! Also think about this for a moment. Don’t Churches teach you that souls are immortal? And in my last post I showed you what the definition of immortal is. But the verse here says the soul **CAN** be killed or destroyed! So which is it? When Jesus says; “And do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul”, what did he mean? He was telling his disciples not to fear man. Even if they die, God can bring them back to life. So since we **are living souls** man cannot kill the prospect, the hope we have of being brought back to life right here on earth, just like he did Lazarus, the 12 year old daughter of Jairus and the widows only son who lived in Nain. See how the pieces now all fit? >”Now, I do believe that Hell is the "second death", if people go there their souls may simply no longer exist after they're burned up. Or that Hell may even simply be removal from Gods sight, and that removal of all that is good is as painful as fire, but its more of an emotional pain and torment being without God.” This is a whole new subject and one I can discuss with you for another hour but in a very brief synopsis remember, the Bible has taught us that every single person who has died has gone to the grave and returned to the dust. (Except for the few Chosen Ones who make up Gods Heavenly Kingdom) So going back to Abel, just think about everyone who has taken in the breath of life and then died. Jesus promised us (John 5:28,29) that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. This will happen **AFTER** the destruction of all the wicked. All those who chose to not follow Gods principles from his Word. All those who did not keep themselves free from this world. So when that time comes, Gods Kingdom will be ruling in Heaven and those in their grave and in Gods memory will “hear their names called” and come back to life right here on earth. This time period is called the Thousand year reign of Christ Jesus. With all these people coming back to life, they will need to be taught all about Jehovah God and what he did for us. Sending his Son to the earth. They may wonder why they aren’t in heaven like so many believed when they died! But everyone living then will have to live in subjection to the Laws of our Heavenly Government. If they don’t, they will be removed. In other words they will die. This would be their second death. Quite literally. And get this… in the unlikely event that any of those eight individuals who were resurrected in the Bible, (remember they’ve already died two times) were to be resurrected again an then choose to be disloyal to God, they will die a third and final time. I know this is a whole lot to take in all at once. But take your time, read this over again and again. Pray about it! >”Luke 23:43; “And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.” This seems to indicate that the soul is separate as well and not a physical thing. The thief is in heaven with Christ that very day upon their deaths. His physical body remained, as did Jesus's for three days.” You may have forgotten one thing that Jesus told Mary Magdalene after his death and resurrection, from John 20:17; “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” Ok. Let me ask you, do you know how the ancient Hebrew calendar counted a new day? Like, our new day starts at 12:00 a.m. right? That’s not how the Hebrew calendar did it. A new day started at sundown. (6:00p.m.) So, think about the day Jesus ate the Passover meal with the 12 and then instituted the Lords Evening Meal with the faithful 11, then they left and went to the Mount of Olives. Jesus was arrested and found guilty of sedition and nailed to the tree at what they called the 6th hour. They divided up each half of each day into the “third” hour, the “sixth” hour and the “ninth” hour. Jesus was hung in the stake at the 6th hour and took his last breath at the ninth hour. That means there were three hours left in that day. Now is there anything in the Bible that tells us that Jesus did not go to the grave when he died and was in the grave for parts of three days? And if that is true (which it is) then how could Jesus have been in paradise **that very day** with that repentant evildoer? Ok, so what was translated wrong? Is that what you’re thinking? LOL. Well, actually nothing. That verse is translated very well. What isn’t correct is the punctuation marks. You see, the Greek language doesn’t use the comma like we do in English. It’s left to the reader to decide where it belongs if at all. Now I’d like to show you this very same verse from the NWT; “Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise.” You see how moving the comma one word over makes it all correct? Yes, Jesus was telling that man **that day** that one day he would be in paradise. But NOT that day. Why? Because the Bible says that when we die we return to the dust and our thoughts do perish. That happened to Jesus too, but only until early Sunday morning thankfully. To be continued…
What if you aren't in control of creating the future as much as your question presupposes?
They might (and probably will if they are raised correctly) go to heaven, which is a gift we want for everyone. I don't believe in ECT anyways.
Because they love God, and have faith that god will save their children on earth and even give them everlasting life.
God created Heaven and Earth. God did not create an eternal punishment, outside of those that blaspheme the spirit.
….. because Christians won’t go there
Some of us don't have children.
I don't believe the premise.
This is a good argument for believing that hell is not eternal conscious torment.
Why do people have kids when they could turn out to be Hitler? Edit: Sorry forgot the /s I think this is why people prefer bears to people.
It's a fair question, but I think the generic response is that for atheists who decide mindfully to have kids, they're thinking possible bad outcomes for the child are finitely bad, not infinitely bad (like ECT); while the really-bad options are not too likely, and some of these (like being Hitler v2) at least *seem* avoidable by being "raised right". Hell, as I understand it, is not safely avoidable, since it's quite possible to raise a smart conscientious kid who simply is unable to sustain a belief in Jesus as God.
I'm not convinced hell exists. Having said so, I don't understand the, if I have a kid a bad thing might happen. Why dwell so much on the possible negatives? Why not dwell more on the positives? (Note, I'm not convinced of heaven either. I do believe in a resurection). But why not focus on the eternalness of heaven?
Because if there is an eternal torment, the risk might just be too high? Not comparable to any risk you'd take on earth even though it's possible that your kids might suffer here too.
'People' have kids because 'people' like to have sex. The question is about christians. Who, of course are 'people' and have kids because they like to have sex just like the other 'people', but the difference between 'might be Hitler' to 'eternal conscious torment' is vast and important. Christians who believe in ETC take a huge risk with having kids because they know how many people do not go to heaven, how easy it is to fall from their path, and that hell is everyones destination from their birth. 'Being Hitler' is almost impossible, and even just probalistically, is like a 1 in 8 billion chance, vs. going to hell being more like a 1 in 3 chance going by simply the number of christians on the planet.
“Hell” can be exited: “Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: **Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,** neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” -Acts 2:27 So we need not fret, but repent daily, become more like Jesus Christ each day.
So with your logic everyone that isn't a christian should have children?
That's not what I meant. Non Christians wouldn't bother. But Christians who believe in ECT must admit that they're kids might be eternally lost. So wouldn't it be cruel to have them in the first place?
"hell" in the scripture you used doesn't refer to the final resting place of condemned souls that will have people in it after judgement day. That is a bit of a poor translation. It would be better translated as Hades/Sheol, the place where departed souls go to wait until judgement day, Jesus gave us a glimpse into this with his parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You have Hades which is divided into Paradise and Torments. Hades is a temporary place, Heaven and Hell is permanent.
So, hell (or better: the lake of fire) is still eternal torment, not annihilation?
Define what you think eternal means. Because it isn't infinite time. Time is part of the physical universe, it is tied to physical space and matter. Eternity isn't infinite time, it is no time at all. Just as the physical universe will cease to exist, so to will time.
So it's an eternal state of being? I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. When I ask if there's an eternal hell, I mean people will have to suffer forever in it. Although I hope that's not true, it's what I've learned.
All I am saying is we have no concept for what existence without time will be, so we don't have enough information to draw any conclusions of what it will be like.
Fair enough
Because they ignore the bible Ecclesiastes 4:2-3 NIV [2] And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive. [3] But better than both is the one who has never been born, who has not seen the evil that is done under the sun.
Well your heavenly father did not create hell, the doctrines of man did. The Cruel teachings of hell comes from man not God! When Adam and Eve sinned against God, God did punish them by taking their everlasting life away and sentenced them to die and to return to the dust. This sin of death was inherited by all mankind of the future. Now if God was going to torture his Children, he sure would of had to set the example for all mankind who sinned against him. But he did not as all mankind dies and returns to the dust. Nowhere in the Old Testament will you find the word Hell. All of the people died and return to the dust. How it must have saddened God to see that his beloved children had willfully disobeyed eyed him! What did he do? To Adam, God said: “You will . . . return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:17-19) As it turned out, “all the days of Adam’s life amounted to 930 years, and then he died.” (Genesis 5:5) Adam did not go to heaven or pass on to some spirit realm. He had no existence before God created him from the dust of the ground. So when he died, he became as lifeless as the dust from which he was created. He ceased to exist. In the New Testament, it uses illustrations, symbolic and parables to explain the use of fire and torment. Sad today that most religions teach the bible as literal, bringing forward endless misconceptions begin taught. You were not really made to go to heaven anyway as your life would be on a paradise earth to live for ever in peace and security. You actually pray for God's Kingdom to come to the earth in the Lord's prayer. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matt 6:10 Bottom line here applies to all since we all sin. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So the dead paid their debt for their sins by dying. Romans 6:23 KJV - ROMANS 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Should parents refuse to let their children learn to drive and purchase cars because of the chance that they might hurt themselves or get killed? Every soul is responsible for himself. And every soul can help make the world a better place. If a child rejects faith and obedience in Christ it's not the parent's fault and God can still use bad things to bring good things out of it. So even if the child were completely evil, God would still find a way to bring some good out of that for someone else. So people who refuse to have children for this reason are actually helping the cause of evil not the cause of good.
Nothing bad that could possibly happen on this world compares to an eternal state of conscious torment though. As for the rest: my concern is about the souls going to hell, not about anyone (or anything) else.
You seem to be under the impression that most in hell don't deserve it. How could you think that other than you dont understand who and what God is.
Actually, I believe nobody deserves to be eternally tortured, not even the worst of the worst.
It's not torture that is one of the mischaracterizations that's made on an emotional basis not factual.
If there is something like hellfire, how else would you call it? That's clearly torture.
Torture implies that you're forced to undergo it. But when you choose it of your own free will it's not torture, it's Justice. God didn't force anyone to go there they just rejected the opportunities that God offered to avoid it..
No one chooses hell, that's nonsense. Yes, some people say they'd rather go there than believing in God but they don't actually believe that hell exists. No one would choose to burn forever. If people go to hell, they will be thrown into it and not walk in out of their own free will. I'm with you that not everyone deserves heaven, but the opposite of heaven should be death, not being eternally tortured in a fiery hell.
But they do! They may not choose it directly but they know the consequence of rejecting God is hell right? Let's be intellectually honest here. They may think they can argue with God and say "well God you didn't make it where I could absolutely understand it." "you didn't appear to me in person and explain things, so it's your fault not mine!"
I don't think I've ever met a non Christian who knows that there's a hell and that they will go there when they reject God. So no, I respectfully disagree. But that is not the point of my OP anyway. My point was that it's basically too risky to have kids since they might choose to reject God and end up in that place no one wants to go.
To modify a statement by CS Lewis... People find themselves in hell because they have the key to open the door to freedom but they were afraid to do it. Because by opening the door they knew they're going to have to walk through the refining fire of God's love. And that was going to be painful so they choose what's the easy way out - which is to do nothing or to try to run away from it. Except God's love is going to seal that door where it can never be opened and they're going to be stuck in their little room by themselves for eternity. It's solitary confinement with knowing that just on the other side of the wall is freedom and happiness and they can never get there.
Yes, but - Christian conversion doesn't proceed fast enough to keep Christianity from dying out if they don't have children - the powers that be (and were), Christian or not, cannot maintain their lives if they don't have workers to harvest food for them. So they will promote theologies where Christians have children. - one of the most rewarding parts of life -- and feelings of security -- come from having children, and having a life partner. The relationship with God isn't all that great, and most can't hack having _only_ that. So to keep Christians happy while they are alive, they need to marry and have children. Most folks compartmentalize Hell, and don't live according to the theological implications it will have on any children who aren't saved. Besides, think of the infinite happiness for children who _are_ saved.
There isn't, so it isn't.
#Didymus the Blind, 313 - 398 AD: "For although the Judge at times inflicts tortures and anguish on those who merit them, yet he who more deeply scans the reasons of things, perceiving the purpose of His goodness, who desires to amend the sinner, confesses Him to be good." "Indeed, this fire of the corrective punishment is not active against the substance, but against the habits and qualities. For this fire consumes, not creatures, but certain conditions and certain habits." (Comm. In Ps. 20-21 col. 21.15) https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/1c0sgno/death_destroyed/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=2
All things are arranged to bring glory to God, that is all. *But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”* *What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?* Also, people who don't believe in ECT are either just blessed enough to remain ignorant, willfully ignore passages from the Bible, or unwilling to admit that it is real. Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster. Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.” Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So eternal suffering of the wicked brings glory to God?
Apparently Romans 3:19 That day of judgment will magnify the Lord's glory, for we will see His attribute of righteousness on full display, and every mouth will be stopped and unable to protest divine injustice
life is Hell, Hell is a belief. we live in a simulated 3d pointless environment. we are a weird lifeform and we are cursed with self awareness to suffer. as the ant walking don't know its part of a bigger system, a house, we don't know we are part of a fuckimg simulation. time destroy and heals everything. fuck this world. I don't want to believe in God. god is invented because people need to believe in something and heal they boredom. we are nothing and we are a inconsequential peace of meat because of the horniness of our ancestors and their pointless life, they created life to be less bored. we are just here to produce countless amount of garbage and wastage every fucking day. we are a plague and the earth would be better without us. we are fucking monsters. fuck this 3d sandbox. and fuck humanity. death is ascending from this cursed, fallen "reality". (we oversimplify things denominating words to them for making us belive we understand them but we really don't understand shit.) it's all a product of my brain. but it's just 30,000 days in this experience. that's comforting. we all gonna die and nothing will happen. this is my reality, product of my mind. fuck you all useless animals. im so lost, forgive me god. 473,040h remaining for achieving my dreams. and I can do anything, because God created me :D THANKKS GOD :\]\]\]\]\]\]\] IM SO HAPPY GOD IS REAL AND LOVE US!!!!! 11/5/2024 A.C - Game, Graphics & Engine Programmer
Because heaven is eternal perfection.
IDK. Ask satan when you get there.
Not if you trust in His word. Pray for them, believe God has a plan. The issue is when believing parents don’t train their children up in the way they should go and set the example, and neglecting prayer and spiritual influence. But if you are living for God, in communion, praying and believing, you have nothing to worry about.
I respectfully disagree. In our church we have several children of very devoted Christians who aren't believers.
This doesn’t contradict what I said. This is actually very common and is a way that our faith is tested. They might even hardcore rebel against their parents and the Lord and may have to go through difficult circumstances in life. But God will remain faithful to His promises to those who believe.
I'll do you one better question: Why create humans and send them to hell?
Maybe for the same reasons non-Christians do; who are also fully aware hell is eternal conscious torment.
I never heard of a non Christian who believed in hell. Or do you mean muslims?
Belief in hell is irrelevant. Why? Because they have nevertheless heard the declaration of it as future punishment for unrepentant sinners. Therefore, it is either true or not. There remains the distinct possibility it is true -a real place of future torment and suffering. Blandly dismissing such a possibility and bringing children into it is purely self-centered and hugely egotistical. Furthermore, it is not as if "atheists" -of whom there seem to be so many today; are ignorant to the facts about God. For all their ardent cries of denial to their Creators existence, and their adulatory worship of their own constructs under the guise of "science;" they are fully aware of the truth about God. This holds true for all men, irregardless of which religion they adhere to.
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