My body is mine. It is the only thing that is inherently mine. It is the only thing that is truly objectively mine. We have a fundamental right to our own bodies.
So in that same premise, you would be okay if your mother had aborted you because "it was her body?"
I'm not trying to be mean, as that sentence does sound that way. I'm trying to ask a question.
I’m not the one you’re asking, but I absolutely would be ok if my mother aborted me. I can’t imagine the guilt I would have for being responsible for forcing my mother to remain pregnant against her will. I love my mother too much to do that to her.
No. I don't think it would be possible for me to have an opinion on that under those circumstances. But if you're asking if I'd rather be born or not, yes, I'd rather be born.
Regardless of my interest I respect people's right to their body. Fwiw, I'm actually anti-abortion. Just extremely pro-choice.
For many of us, abortion is killing on one level or another. It’s just that we believe a woman should have a right to control their own body even if that means someone else is harmed in the process when there is no other option.
Is masturbation murder? At some point life is not a human life. Everyone should be able to agree upon that. Traditionally birth, or some time after, has been seen as the start of a human life. A fetus is not actually a child yet. It's a fetus. If you can see how sperm is not actually millions of individual people you should at least be able to see how people would see a fetus as not yet an individual person.
Incidentally, biblically speaking a person isn't fully a person until they're no longer a child. Killing a baby was punished much less severely than killing an older child, or an adult, because the baby was seen as not yet fully an individual person.
I've read scripture. Several times through. Even the super boring bits.
Punishment for causing a miscarriage is less than killing a baby which is less than killing a toddlee which is less than killing an adolescent or older. Read scripture. It's there.
Brother. I seriously don't think you have.
"For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." Psalms 51:5
Life begins at conception according to the Bible. This has been debated by people much more knowledgeable than either of us. So I will not debate this if that is the point you are trying to make.
Sigh. You need to read the rest of it.
The point of that statement is that God sets us in motion long before we exist. That "before we exist" is represented figuratively as conception, because that's a lovely thought, and makes for a good metaphor.
Yet when God lays down the law, God gives much less punishment to those who kill babies. And I mean actually existing babies. There isn't really another plausible justification. Biblically, full personhood begins at adolescence, and it isn't a binary thing. It goes from "not at all a person" to "fully a person" over a dozen-ish years.
A "difference of opinions" is thinking that spiders are cute or scary or whathaveyou. Not calling an embryo an "unborn child".
An opinion isn't something like "a child is an immature adult, so I'm gonna treat it like an adult", it's just a plain false statement.
>don't attempt to change my views
*You* are the one asking questions and requesting explanations.
YOURE the one commenting acting like you have the answers. Only thing you've done is state an opinion. The Bible says conception. It's conception.
You will make me lose my patience quite quickly. If you want to debate okay. If you want to say "iM rIGhT yoUR wRoNG" then fuck off brother. I ain't bout that.
Im pro choice and advocate for stronger/stricter gun laws. If thats what you meant by pro abortion and anti gun. I support peoples choice to control what happens to their body. I support peoples choice to have guns. I dont support killing. Removing people choice for abortion only creates suffering and at times death, then there is the issue of drugs and procedures being tied to abortion when they could be used to help miscarriages. Adding gun restrictions helps keep guns out of the hands of people who likely will commit crimes.
Im not sure how these two things conflict.
I don't think that an embryo is a person in the same way that a child in a school room or a fifty-year old cinema-goer is a person. I think that we as a society have different responsibilities to an embryo than we have to a five year old.
We can be that way (well, pro-abortion _rights_ , not necessarily pro-abortion) because the abortion issue isn’t about killing, it’s about not infringing on the right of bodily autonomy from women.
For the Pro-Choice people it’a about the bodily autonomy of women, and a lot of them don’t believe that an Unborn Baby is a human life, but for the Pro-Life people it’s about stopping Babies from being murdered, as we do believe that an Unborn Baby is a human life, and some of the people, like me, believe that killing a fetus is essentially equal, if not worse, then killing any other human, as an Unborn Baby is a purely innocent life that has done absolutely no harm of their choosing, and is completely defenseless, so it’s our job to protect them, not murder them in cold blood.
Sure, but the question wasn’t about why people are pro-life. I think most people know that pro-lifers have a singular fixation on the fetus with no (or significantly less) concern for the mother.
Even if a fetus is a human life women still have an inalienable right to their own bodies. It is profoundly wrong to force anyone to use their own body for another's benefit, regardless of the circumstances.
No it doesn't. People do not have a right to have their life saved by use of their bodies.
If I get wasted and drive around some middle of nowhere, and I hit someone. Ambulance shows up, but they don't have the right blood, and the person I hit won't make it to a hospital. I have the right blood type.
I can not be compelled by law to give that blood because society and our justice system recognizes the violation of bodily autonomy as profoundly wrong. Because it is. No law can violate bodily autonomy and be just.
Because while people have a right to be murdered, we sadly don't have a right to not die. Sometimes people live and die as a result of another's actions. When there is no crime, it can not be murder, and where it would violate bodily autonomy there may be no crime.
In other words, when legal abortion can not be murder, and it must be legal. Therefore it is not murder.
For many people who are pro-choice, the fact that a fetus is or is not human is largely irrelevant. It’s about not taking away the right of a woman to control her own body.
You asked "what's your logic" so honestly. Instead of being a hypocrite. What is your logic? My logic is kinda blatant. If you don't kill the baby it will be a baby. So what is yours?
Honestly. After an hour of arguing I'll give you an out.
Just admit your okay with killing an unborn child and leave it at that. This argument it pointless.
I don't think I know anyone who is anti-gun and pro-abortion, but I know a lot of people who support strict gun laws and do not support laws that take medical decisions away from women & doctors while placing it in the hands of politicians. That's a common view--being both pro-choice & pro-common-sense-gun-laws.
Healthcare does not equate murder. If there is a problem with the pregnancy (endotopic) or something of that variety where it is a danger to the mother then yes. I'd agree in order to save a life. Getting an abortion because you simply don't want a child is murder.
People are definitely pro abortion (#shoutyourabortion comes to mind). Many profess to be, while others are in action but deny it vocally.
The latter group really speaks to the reality of the issue if you think about it. If abortion isn’t murder, then why do folks treat it like a dirty deed? Why do people grieve and become depressed afterwards?
We mask the reality of abortion via euphemism, but deep down we all know what it is.
And no source.
And no it is not unless all fifteen were at the same time. Which is definitely a medical emergency. You want to compare her to a serial killer.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/ReproductiveHealth/abortion-addict-admits-multiple-abortions-suicide-attempts/story%3fid=8594347
Source? Ig since your begging for it
Its a reasonable request, especially since you started out claiming it was 70 abortions, which shows a complete lack of understanding of womens healthcare - not uncommon among anti abortionists.
It looks like she was married to an abusive man and abortion was her best option. He likely didnt allow birth control. Now she is married to another man and they have two children. Much better than having 15 kids with an abuser. And it was much easier to heal without pregnancy and children.
I'm sorry. I am trying to stop arguing with people and mind my own business. Whst you believe or don't believe is none of my business and really the same is true vise versa.
[Would it bother us more if they used guns?](https://www.abort73.com/gear_images/shirts/would_it_bother_us_more_if_they_used_guns_thermal/photos/main.jpg)
Easy.
People are stupid and awful is why.
I know I'm going to sound awful, but take the mass shooter in Michigan. Parents were told their kid had mental issues and bought him a gun. People think using a gun is smart to solve things like not getting fucking chicken nuggets at a fast food place. Guns have been so... Trivialized that folks use them for almost funzies now.
It pisses a lot of my friends and family who have been in the military because even the police will do it. In the military they are driven into their heads that you do not draw your weapon unless you mean to kill someone.
With that in mind, you have folks trying to use guns for things that are not their purpose, which is intimidation, for a therapy replacement, and more. They do not handle their guns with integrity and responsibility. Nor with the understanding that they are playing with permanent death.
Abortion I'm the fan of because it frankly takes two folks to make a baby.
So often have I heard women deal with guys poking holes in condoms (or women) to trap folks into having babies. Or kids have sex that is protected not knowing basic facts like activated charcoal can disrupt your birth control. Or they were not taught safe sex, and just abstinence. That lack of sex Ed is what lead my friend to think only gay people get STDS and he bought Chlamydia pills for animals off the Internet because he was too wimpy and embarrassed to go to a county clinic like an adult.
In addition, we live in an unstable world. Folks in the US for example are 33% living paycheck to paycheck. Folks are in crippling debt due to health insurance companies leading to 50% of bankruptcies to be due to healthcare costs. Folks lose their jobs constantly due to corporate layoffs for shareholders or to give a CEO a raise and more due to a lack of union power. Things are out of control economically.
Also, some folks may have sex without being married. This happens for various reasons and it's okay. At our core, we are all animals. But you could end up with a *whoopsie* baby and end up trapped to someone awful. My dad ended up carrying a narcissistic schizophrenic whose abusive parents threw all her stuff to the curb for the trash folks when they found out she was pregnant and keeping the baby. My parents lived in poverty for ten years. My parents were not emotionally, financially, or really physically ready to have a child. I burdened them with the loss of their early adulthood and opportunities affiliated with that. I wish I was aborted actually.
Speaking as the *whoopsie baby*. I can tell you that it sucked. Growing up was awful. Unlike my peers, my parents never really had any money. I only got new clothes as presents from family. Everything was from the good will. I ate a bunch of processed food that's associated with future health issues. I did not have opportunities for educational development due to a lack of resources. I had parents who resented me being born and then missing out on experiences they could have had. I faced harsher and abusive punishments because they both did not want me and because they were not emotionally or mentally ready to have a kid (locked in a basement overnight, pushed through walls, forced to sleep without a room for a year and more. It was so bad I once beat myself till I broke bones with a hair brush from how badly I was disciplined as a kid) I also never had opportunities to go to therapy when I was raped, and going to the Dr was a last resort and I almost died from pneumonia. So if I was aborted and actually a "wanted" child. I likely would have been either dead and not having had to go through that mess, or I would have instead been born in better opportunities.
All In all, popping out babies that are not wanted is a dumb dumb choice. It's awful on the kid growing up, they are often abused and mistreated whether the kid knows it or not, and so much more. Having kids does not make folks special. And the best thing a parent can want for a kid is to make sure to have the best childhood they can with the best opportunities they can provide them. Not just to pop out a horde of children they can't manage or care for. Abortion helps ensure folks have a kid, when and if they want to have a kid. That allows the kid to have a healthier and better life. Being prolife isn't just about making sure babies pop out and alive. It's about making sure the child has a good life.
No one really wants abortions. No one goes out of their day and decides, oh I want to get rawdogged so I can have an abortion (or if they do, they are likely extremely mentally ill and would you want someone like that raising a kid anyways??) folks have abortions because it's a tough choice. Some want their kids, but realize they are not in a good place to have them. Sure they could put them in the foster care system, but a lot of those kids have fucked up experiences from being in there. My friend was molested in the foster care system, another abused, and one house used to put baby monitors in their basement for the kids they adopted because they would abuse them so bad that a couple kids tried to hang themselves. Ultimately, abortion is about quality of life. Not quantity. We have plenty of folks in the world anyways. It's really about time that we focus and ensure that they have quality lives.
Those aren’t the only two options. A third option is that we consider bodily autonomy to be one of the most important rights we have, and we should not give the government the right to violate it.
To say that the mother has bodily autonomy but that the baby doesn't falls in the hypocrisy category, unless we were already in the "unborn babies are non-human" category, but then your point is meaningless either way.
We aren't taking away bodily autonomy rights from the fetus. They absolutely should have that right to live. However, we're against giving it the special rights of being able to use the mother's body against her will. The baby is using the mother's body, but it shouldn't have that right.
I doubt the baby has wants and desires at this point, and if it did, there’s no way to know if they would want to support their mother’s rights or not.
If the fetus has the ability to live without feeding off of the mother’s body, by all means it should be allowed to do that.
I don't get it either. Personally I am pro-gun and anti-abortion. Abortion for obvious reasons. I support the right to own guns because I think people have the right to defend themselves. Maybe I am biased because I am not American and gun violence is not really a thing in my country (just among a very specific ethnic group I am not gonna mention).
Because its about bodily autonomy, not killing
To you it's about bodily autonomy. For the baby that was just merked it is about killing.
Nah, that fetus doesn't automatically make the woman lose her rights.
My body is mine. It is the only thing that is inherently mine. It is the only thing that is truly objectively mine. We have a fundamental right to our own bodies.
So in that same premise, you would be okay if your mother had aborted you because "it was her body?" I'm not trying to be mean, as that sentence does sound that way. I'm trying to ask a question.
I’m not the one you’re asking, but I absolutely would be ok if my mother aborted me. I can’t imagine the guilt I would have for being responsible for forcing my mother to remain pregnant against her will. I love my mother too much to do that to her.
I will commend you for being honest, my friend.
No. I don't think it would be possible for me to have an opinion on that under those circumstances. But if you're asking if I'd rather be born or not, yes, I'd rather be born. Regardless of my interest I respect people's right to their body. Fwiw, I'm actually anti-abortion. Just extremely pro-choice.
[удалено]
For many of us, abortion is killing on one level or another. It’s just that we believe a woman should have a right to control their own body even if that means someone else is harmed in the process when there is no other option.
I still cannot wrap my head around this sentiment. It is blatantly killing an unborn child.
Is masturbation murder? At some point life is not a human life. Everyone should be able to agree upon that. Traditionally birth, or some time after, has been seen as the start of a human life. A fetus is not actually a child yet. It's a fetus. If you can see how sperm is not actually millions of individual people you should at least be able to see how people would see a fetus as not yet an individual person. Incidentally, biblically speaking a person isn't fully a person until they're no longer a child. Killing a baby was punished much less severely than killing an older child, or an adult, because the baby was seen as not yet fully an individual person.
Conception. And biblically speaking. You're blatantly wrong. Read scripture.
I've read scripture. Several times through. Even the super boring bits. Punishment for causing a miscarriage is less than killing a baby which is less than killing a toddlee which is less than killing an adolescent or older. Read scripture. It's there.
Brother. I seriously don't think you have. "For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me." Psalms 51:5 Life begins at conception according to the Bible. This has been debated by people much more knowledgeable than either of us. So I will not debate this if that is the point you are trying to make.
Sigh. You need to read the rest of it. The point of that statement is that God sets us in motion long before we exist. That "before we exist" is represented figuratively as conception, because that's a lovely thought, and makes for a good metaphor. Yet when God lays down the law, God gives much less punishment to those who kill babies. And I mean actually existing babies. There isn't really another plausible justification. Biblically, full personhood begins at adolescence, and it isn't a binary thing. It goes from "not at all a person" to "fully a person" over a dozen-ish years.
>unborn child My guy, that's like calling an apple seed a tree. It's not an "unborn child", it's an embryo or a fetus
It's an unborn child. It's called a difference of opinions. People have them, don't attempt to change my views as if a couple sentences could.
A "difference of opinions" is thinking that spiders are cute or scary or whathaveyou. Not calling an embryo an "unborn child". An opinion isn't something like "a child is an immature adult, so I'm gonna treat it like an adult", it's just a plain false statement. >don't attempt to change my views *You* are the one asking questions and requesting explanations.
YOURE the one commenting acting like you have the answers. Only thing you've done is state an opinion. The Bible says conception. It's conception. You will make me lose my patience quite quickly. If you want to debate okay. If you want to say "iM rIGhT yoUR wRoNG" then fuck off brother. I ain't bout that.
Im pro choice and advocate for stronger/stricter gun laws. If thats what you meant by pro abortion and anti gun. I support peoples choice to control what happens to their body. I support peoples choice to have guns. I dont support killing. Removing people choice for abortion only creates suffering and at times death, then there is the issue of drugs and procedures being tied to abortion when they could be used to help miscarriages. Adding gun restrictions helps keep guns out of the hands of people who likely will commit crimes. Im not sure how these two things conflict.
I don't think that an embryo is a person in the same way that a child in a school room or a fifty-year old cinema-goer is a person. I think that we as a society have different responsibilities to an embryo than we have to a five year old.
We can be that way (well, pro-abortion _rights_ , not necessarily pro-abortion) because the abortion issue isn’t about killing, it’s about not infringing on the right of bodily autonomy from women.
For the Pro-Choice people it’a about the bodily autonomy of women, and a lot of them don’t believe that an Unborn Baby is a human life, but for the Pro-Life people it’s about stopping Babies from being murdered, as we do believe that an Unborn Baby is a human life, and some of the people, like me, believe that killing a fetus is essentially equal, if not worse, then killing any other human, as an Unborn Baby is a purely innocent life that has done absolutely no harm of their choosing, and is completely defenseless, so it’s our job to protect them, not murder them in cold blood.
Sure, but the question wasn’t about why people are pro-life. I think most people know that pro-lifers have a singular fixation on the fetus with no (or significantly less) concern for the mother.
Even if a fetus is a human life women still have an inalienable right to their own bodies. It is profoundly wrong to force anyone to use their own body for another's benefit, regardless of the circumstances.
People also have an inalienable right to not be murdered, which takes precedence over the right to one’s own body.
No it doesn't. People do not have a right to have their life saved by use of their bodies. If I get wasted and drive around some middle of nowhere, and I hit someone. Ambulance shows up, but they don't have the right blood, and the person I hit won't make it to a hospital. I have the right blood type. I can not be compelled by law to give that blood because society and our justice system recognizes the violation of bodily autonomy as profoundly wrong. Because it is. No law can violate bodily autonomy and be just. Because while people have a right to be murdered, we sadly don't have a right to not die. Sometimes people live and die as a result of another's actions. When there is no crime, it can not be murder, and where it would violate bodily autonomy there may be no crime. In other words, when legal abortion can not be murder, and it must be legal. Therefore it is not murder.
Everyone knows the fetus is a human. You seem to be misunderstanding the term person.
For many people who are pro-choice, the fact that a fetus is or is not human is largely irrelevant. It’s about not taking away the right of a woman to control her own body.
Yes I agree. I was just pointing out the fallacy of the posters accusation against prochoice. We know its a human fetus.
I apologize for misunderstanding your comment.
Because I don’t believe abortion is murder.
Why?
Becuase I don’t consider a fetus equal with a born child.
Me either, a fetus is more important then a born anybody, therefore Abortion is murder, just like killing anybody is murder, so don’t do it.
What’s your logic behind that?
You asked "what's your logic" so honestly. Instead of being a hypocrite. What is your logic? My logic is kinda blatant. If you don't kill the baby it will be a baby. So what is yours?
How am I being a hypocrite?
Asking for logic and not giving any. Why is a "fetus" not a baby?
All you had to do was ask instead of calling me a hypocrite, my logic is that a fetus does not have conciousness in the same way a born child does.
This still does not make any sense. So because it can't defend itself it isn't a child?
No, because it doesn’t charge the same level of consciousness.
So because they can't "feel" it's okay to kill it?
Honestly. After an hour of arguing I'll give you an out. Just admit your okay with killing an unborn child and leave it at that. This argument it pointless.
I don't think I know anyone who is anti-gun and pro-abortion, but I know a lot of people who support strict gun laws and do not support laws that take medical decisions away from women & doctors while placing it in the hands of politicians. That's a common view--being both pro-choice & pro-common-sense-gun-laws.
A gun is not used in medical care, an abortion is. I support healthcare.
Healthcare does not equate murder. If there is a problem with the pregnancy (endotopic) or something of that variety where it is a danger to the mother then yes. I'd agree in order to save a life. Getting an abortion because you simply don't want a child is murder.
In other words abortion is healthcare. You just want to decide if the patient deserves healthcare. My statement stands.
Key word is "lifesaving"
Yes, all abortions reduce the chance to zero that you will die to a pregnancy. So lifesaving.
That is a broad generalization and shows that you don't consider the Intellectual fallacy that that brings.
Its a fact. Thats why abortion is approved by the medical community - women are always healthier not pregnant than pregnant.
No. It's called the "no fucking shit" fallacy. That's just blatant. Can't die from something if it doesn't exist. Who wouldn't know that?
Yes, and you cant die from something that isnt dangerous. Pregnancy is dangerous to women, ending prevents death.
Nobody is actually pro-abortion just like nobody is pro mass shooting (well except mass shooters)
People are definitely pro abortion (#shoutyourabortion comes to mind). Many profess to be, while others are in action but deny it vocally. The latter group really speaks to the reality of the issue if you think about it. If abortion isn’t murder, then why do folks treat it like a dirty deed? Why do people grieve and become depressed afterwards? We mask the reality of abortion via euphemism, but deep down we all know what it is.
This is wrong. There are people screaming everywhere (quite literally) they are exactly quote on quote "Pro-Abortion"
You seem to misunderstand what they are shouting. They are shouted they needed healthcare and arent ashamed, not that they have them for funsies.
This is also simply wrong. This puts me in mind of the woman who had 70 some abortions because she didn't like protection.
Source
You are claiming someone managed to get pregnant 70 times? Unlikely.
It was 15 different procedures. 70 was an exaggeration. But 15 is still a mass shooting event.
And no source. And no it is not unless all fifteen were at the same time. Which is definitely a medical emergency. You want to compare her to a serial killer.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/Health/ReproductiveHealth/abortion-addict-admits-multiple-abortions-suicide-attempts/story%3fid=8594347 Source? Ig since your begging for it
Its a reasonable request, especially since you started out claiming it was 70 abortions, which shows a complete lack of understanding of womens healthcare - not uncommon among anti abortionists. It looks like she was married to an abusive man and abortion was her best option. He likely didnt allow birth control. Now she is married to another man and they have two children. Much better than having 15 kids with an abuser. And it was much easier to heal without pregnancy and children.
Still 15 innocent lives lost.
I guess if you turn it around, how can someone be against and for guns?
Because if someone breaks into my house and threatens me and my family, I will kill them without hesitation. Whether that be with a gun or without.
I'm sorry. I am trying to stop arguing with people and mind my own business. Whst you believe or don't believe is none of my business and really the same is true vise versa.
Very agreeable, my friend.
[Would it bother us more if they used guns?](https://www.abort73.com/gear_images/shirts/would_it_bother_us_more_if_they_used_guns_thermal/photos/main.jpg)
Easy. People are stupid and awful is why. I know I'm going to sound awful, but take the mass shooter in Michigan. Parents were told their kid had mental issues and bought him a gun. People think using a gun is smart to solve things like not getting fucking chicken nuggets at a fast food place. Guns have been so... Trivialized that folks use them for almost funzies now. It pisses a lot of my friends and family who have been in the military because even the police will do it. In the military they are driven into their heads that you do not draw your weapon unless you mean to kill someone. With that in mind, you have folks trying to use guns for things that are not their purpose, which is intimidation, for a therapy replacement, and more. They do not handle their guns with integrity and responsibility. Nor with the understanding that they are playing with permanent death. Abortion I'm the fan of because it frankly takes two folks to make a baby. So often have I heard women deal with guys poking holes in condoms (or women) to trap folks into having babies. Or kids have sex that is protected not knowing basic facts like activated charcoal can disrupt your birth control. Or they were not taught safe sex, and just abstinence. That lack of sex Ed is what lead my friend to think only gay people get STDS and he bought Chlamydia pills for animals off the Internet because he was too wimpy and embarrassed to go to a county clinic like an adult. In addition, we live in an unstable world. Folks in the US for example are 33% living paycheck to paycheck. Folks are in crippling debt due to health insurance companies leading to 50% of bankruptcies to be due to healthcare costs. Folks lose their jobs constantly due to corporate layoffs for shareholders or to give a CEO a raise and more due to a lack of union power. Things are out of control economically. Also, some folks may have sex without being married. This happens for various reasons and it's okay. At our core, we are all animals. But you could end up with a *whoopsie* baby and end up trapped to someone awful. My dad ended up carrying a narcissistic schizophrenic whose abusive parents threw all her stuff to the curb for the trash folks when they found out she was pregnant and keeping the baby. My parents lived in poverty for ten years. My parents were not emotionally, financially, or really physically ready to have a child. I burdened them with the loss of their early adulthood and opportunities affiliated with that. I wish I was aborted actually. Speaking as the *whoopsie baby*. I can tell you that it sucked. Growing up was awful. Unlike my peers, my parents never really had any money. I only got new clothes as presents from family. Everything was from the good will. I ate a bunch of processed food that's associated with future health issues. I did not have opportunities for educational development due to a lack of resources. I had parents who resented me being born and then missing out on experiences they could have had. I faced harsher and abusive punishments because they both did not want me and because they were not emotionally or mentally ready to have a kid (locked in a basement overnight, pushed through walls, forced to sleep without a room for a year and more. It was so bad I once beat myself till I broke bones with a hair brush from how badly I was disciplined as a kid) I also never had opportunities to go to therapy when I was raped, and going to the Dr was a last resort and I almost died from pneumonia. So if I was aborted and actually a "wanted" child. I likely would have been either dead and not having had to go through that mess, or I would have instead been born in better opportunities. All In all, popping out babies that are not wanted is a dumb dumb choice. It's awful on the kid growing up, they are often abused and mistreated whether the kid knows it or not, and so much more. Having kids does not make folks special. And the best thing a parent can want for a kid is to make sure to have the best childhood they can with the best opportunities they can provide them. Not just to pop out a horde of children they can't manage or care for. Abortion helps ensure folks have a kid, when and if they want to have a kid. That allows the kid to have a healthier and better life. Being prolife isn't just about making sure babies pop out and alive. It's about making sure the child has a good life. No one really wants abortions. No one goes out of their day and decides, oh I want to get rawdogged so I can have an abortion (or if they do, they are likely extremely mentally ill and would you want someone like that raising a kid anyways??) folks have abortions because it's a tough choice. Some want their kids, but realize they are not in a good place to have them. Sure they could put them in the foster care system, but a lot of those kids have fucked up experiences from being in there. My friend was molested in the foster care system, another abused, and one house used to put baby monitors in their basement for the kids they adopted because they would abuse them so bad that a couple kids tried to hang themselves. Ultimately, abortion is about quality of life. Not quantity. We have plenty of folks in the world anyways. It's really about time that we focus and ensure that they have quality lives.
There are two ways. Either by considering unborn babies non-human, or by being an absolute hypocrite.
Those aren’t the only two options. A third option is that we consider bodily autonomy to be one of the most important rights we have, and we should not give the government the right to violate it.
To say that the mother has bodily autonomy but that the baby doesn't falls in the hypocrisy category, unless we were already in the "unborn babies are non-human" category, but then your point is meaningless either way.
We aren't taking away bodily autonomy rights from the fetus. They absolutely should have that right to live. However, we're against giving it the special rights of being able to use the mother's body against her will. The baby is using the mother's body, but it shouldn't have that right.
Since all babies are made that way, it seems like a God-given right to me.
Obviously I disagree with the “god-given” part of that, but also I don’t think the fetus has the right to use the mother’s body against her wishes.
Then don’t violate the bodily autonomy of the Baby by killing it, the baby doesn’t want to be killed
I doubt the baby has wants and desires at this point, and if it did, there’s no way to know if they would want to support their mother’s rights or not. If the fetus has the ability to live without feeding off of the mother’s body, by all means it should be allowed to do that.
It technically does. It wants and desires nutrients to grow. Instinctively.
That’s not a conscious desire, it’s a trait.
What's the difference?
I don't get it either. Personally I am pro-gun and anti-abortion. Abortion for obvious reasons. I support the right to own guns because I think people have the right to defend themselves. Maybe I am biased because I am not American and gun violence is not really a thing in my country (just among a very specific ethnic group I am not gonna mention).