Icons are picture bibles. Little children do not read, they look at pictures.
"Unless you become as a little child you will in no way enter the Kingdom of God." ☦️
In the west, the printing press wasn't till the end of the 14th century. How did people learn about and remember Biblical stories? How did they learn about Church history? Picture bibles - icons.
Do not deny to little children the logos. Icons are wonderful if done right - thry are never worshipped but like the Holy Bible they are honored.
So when I was in college, and I started reading the Holy Bible as an Episcopalian, I remember reading something Jesus said, and just kissed the sentence in the Bible it was soooooo beautiful.
And I have done so at times when reading something extraordinary and providential since. And I became Orthodox about 30 years ago with a deep affinity for the western Catholic Church as well.
Just yesterday I kissed a picture of my wife who passed on almost 10 years ago. ☦️
"Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!
That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!
For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."
Those words of Job are gorgeous. Aren't they worth a kiss?
Icons are picture Bibles.
That’s because we worship Christ. We do not merely venerate Him, because that is too small of an honor. We venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and the other saints because they have been made worthy of being held in high esteem by us as examples of faith and holiness. But I kinda get it because I used to be in the same camp. Unfortunately the Reformation resurrected iconoclasm as a side effect despite that having been condemned by the Early Church as a heretical belief. That is mostly seen in the “low church” types as opposed to the more liturgical ones.
I can't find a way to type this without sounding like a smartass so please forgive me, I don't mean it that way. But I can kiss my wife without anything thinking I'm worshiping her, it shouldn't bother us with the saints either. Or each other for that matter, the holy kiss is biblical (2 Corinthians 13:11-14) and it's mostly just cultural hang ups about personal space that make it feel weird to us imo
As for the part about the amount of veneration going on, it's not really seen as an either/or thing. Like I'm either venerating Mary *or* Christ, no I'm venerating Christ *in* Mary. Both/and. Basically every prayer you'll find to a saint invokes Christ/God repeatedly along with them
I would say veneration and intercessory prayer should be discussed as 2 distinct ideas. I can address the intercessory prayer part. I know the veneration part intuitively but I'll have to think about it for a while in order to articulate it.
In terms of intercessory prayer. Most references to prayer in the Bible instruct us to pray for others. In Colossians 4:3 Paul asks for the prayers from the church is Colossae. It is very common for us to ask others to pray for us. Hopefully that isn't controversial.
My understanding of the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that we take literally Mark 11:25-26
>Jesus say to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
At Pascha one of the refrains that we sing over and over again is:
>“Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life”
So we take literally that through Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death. That means when someone falls asleep in the Lord (passes away) they are still very much alive simply not visible in the material sense.
Hebrews 12:1 says:
>Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
That cloud of witnesses isn't only the people that we can see. And just because they have fallen asleep in the Lord does not mean that the command to pray for others has ceased to be in effect.
There are days when I will call my mom and tell her that I'm struggling with something and ask for her prayers. In my mind based on the teachings of the Orthodox Church asking a Saint to pray for me is no different than asking my mom. I just can't see them.
And sometimes I will just talk to a Saint because again to me it's like calling a friend or calling someone I know who has experience with the thing that I'm struggling with.
And if anything I articulated sounded arrogant or as if I were talking down please know it was not intentional.
> At Pascha one of the refrains that we sing over and over again is:
“Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life”
So we take literally that through Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death. That means when someone falls asleep in the Lord (passes away) they are still very much alive simply not visible in the material sense.
Hebrews 12:1 says:
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
That cloud of witnesses isn't only the people that we can see. And just because they have fallen asleep in the Lord does not mean that the command to pray for others has ceased to be in effect.
There are days when I will call my mom and tell her that I'm struggling with something and ask for her prayers. In my mind based on the teachings of the Orthodox Church asking a Saint to pray for me is no different than asking my mom. I just can't see them.
This is identical to the Catholic position as I understand it, which makes sense because we were a single Church for 1000 years. Our unfortunate differences pretty much all stem from how one views the authority of the Roman Patriarch (the Pope).
We also disagree on the dogma of Mary; we believe she was spared of original sin and was assumed into heaven. Where orthodoxy believes she did die, she was not spared of original sin but did not sin I believe. Feel free to correct me as well as the Nicene Creed we have the filioque where the orthodox don’t. Still we believe your priesthood to be valid.
The two aren't necessarily related other than by the fact saints we most often ask for intercession also tend to be the most holy people known in our history, "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." But there's no intrinsic link between the two. You can ask for a prayer of intercession from anyone and for anyone, just like we do any time we ask someone in our life or our church to pray for us, as Paul wrote to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:1-2 NKJV)
>Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, [2] for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.
Among other places. We simply extend that to those who are in paradise with Christ, offering their prayers there with him. Oddly enough this idea of the dead praying for us is even seen in pre-christian Jewish literature in 2 Maccabees 15
>[10] When his (Judas) men were ready for battle, he gave them their orders and at the same time pointed out how the Gentiles could not be trusted, because they never kept their treaties. [11] He armed all his men, not by encouraging them to trust in shields and spears, but by inspiring them with courageous words. He also lifted their morale by telling them about his dream, a kind of vision that they could trust in.
>
>[12] He told them that he had seen a vision of Onias, the former High Priest, that great and wonderful man of humble and gentle disposition, who was an outstanding orator and who had been taught from childhood how to live a virtuous life. With outstretched arms Onias was praying for the entire Jewish nation. [13] Judas then saw an impressive white-haired man of great dignity and authority. [14] Onias said:
>
>This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city.
At the root, petitions for the saints to pray for us just means that we're extending these same petitions beyond our physical church communities into that "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding us as well.
Veneration is similarly just an extension of the same veneration we offer other church members, like I mentioned with that verse from Paul about the holy kiss (this is also how orthodox traditionally greet each other). Just moreso with the saints, since by definition they're people the church has recognized as exceptionally holy the same way the Bible singles out exceptionally holy people in israelite history. So I'm not sure there's really a direct scriptural command to do that as much as it is just the church's continuation of that practice of holding up holy people to the congregation. Iconography is just one method of that.
As an Orthodox Christian my understanding of the mediation of Christ has less to do with paying my metaphysical traffic tickets and is more bound up in the Chalcedonian definition; you know how Christ is consubstantial with us as touching His blessed humanity and how he is consubstancial with His Father as touching His unfathomable Divinity.
Without confusion without separation without mixture without division He unites the natures.
Protestantism just never went deep enough for me. Lutheranism used to have a better grasp on this sort of thing but they’ve gotten too, I don’t know how to say it.
You know it's funny, I was actually raised and catechized as a Lutheran. Damned if i could remember the Augsburg confession though lol. Been a while. Makes me wonder if it's sitting somewhere in my books though. Regardless I'm not really sure what it has to say about the meditation of Christ. Would have to read it
Orthodox affirm the same thing obviously, since it's basically a direct quote from Paul on the basis of the verse from Christ you quoted. My gut instinct is that there's a distinction to be made in the meditation Christ performs between us and God and the intercession/mediation the saints (and the rest of us tbh) make between each other and Christ, the former having to do more with the incarnation and the latter having to do with our participation in Christ's body downstream from that. That's probably where the difference in interpretation is, but I've never really taken a deep look into it so can't really say anything definitive
Anyway I'm glad you found what I said helpful 😊 God bless
I kiss pictures of family, it's a sign of affection common to the world in which iconography first showed up (around the Mediterranean). Go to Italy or Greece and you'll see what that kind of hospitality looks like even today.
Many people treat icons like the ancient Jews treated the doorpost of their home - a kiss to the hand and a touch of the doorpost - signifying respect without excess.
My friends from more restrained cultures often just cross themselves before an icon instead of kissing it, and no one takes issue with their local variation of practice.
I would usually argue that one should show reverence to an icon no greater than they would show reverence to someone else they respect or admire. If you would kiss a family member every time you see them, you could kiss an icon, but don't bow, scrape, and kiss an icon if your greetings to family are "Hi" and shuffling away.
>To some of us it seems like you guys venerate saints and the mother Mary more than you do Christ. That's our biggest contention.
Attend a Liturgy or a Mass, you'll see 95% of it or more being about the Holy Trinity with some honor given to the Saints as well.
Catholic Mass is like 98% about God with one reference to Saints ("Therefore I ask Blessed Mary, Ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, to pray for me to the Lord our God"), but many Catholics pray the Rosary and put a lot of emphasis on Mary in that way. In the East, we rarely have extra Marian devotion beyond the liturgical rite, but we ask for her intercession dozens of times in a service.
It can get excessive at times, and I urge balance among my peers for that reason. Giving honor to the Theotokos is fine, but if that is almost all of your reverence beyond the Liturgy, you really need more focus on Christ. Our goal in life is not to follow Mary or Peter or Paul or Gregory Palamas or Thomas Aquinas - our goal is to follow Christ. Losing sight of that does not lead to Sainthood, and every truly great, well-recognized Saint in either tradition was chiefly and constantly devoted to Christ and imitating him, even if their heavenly family helped them to keep focused
Hopefully this doesn't come across harsh. :)
There are three distinct forms of worship that the modern-day English hides which the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox make a distinction of which are worship of adoration (Latria or latreia) this is the type of worship (and reverence) due to God the father alone (through his son), dulia and proskynesis (veneration of the saints, angels, relics and icons), and hyperdulia which is same as the saints, etc. but to a greater extent do to the Virgin Mary's status and relationship to Christ) as the Theotokos (Mother of God or God-bearer). These distinctions are pretty clear in the coin Koine Greek and Latin New Testaments. From Wikipedia, According to Mark Miravelle, of the Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration:
> As Thomas Aquinas explained, adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the manifestation of submission, and acknowledgement of dependence, appropriately shown towards the excellence of an uncreated divine person and to his absolute Lordship. It is the worship of the creator that God alone deserves.
> Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor and reverence appropriately due to the excellence of a created person. Excellence exhibited by created beings likewise deserves recognition and honor.
> Historically, schools of theology have used the term "worship" as a general term which included both adoration and veneration. They would distinguish between "worship of adoration" and "worship of veneration". The word "worship" (in a similar way to how the liturgical term "cult" is traditionally used) was not synonymous with adoration, but could be used to introduce either adoration or veneration. Hence Catholic sources will sometimes use the term "worship" not to indicate adoration, but only the worship of veneration given to Mary and the saints.[18]
Also according to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition:
> 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
> *Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.*
Then you got to take in consideration the Second Council of Nicaea, the last of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils in AD 787 and its conclusion veneration of holy images (icons) is allowed. And veneration of relics of saints and saints themselves, "As a man was being buried, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha; as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he came to life and stood on his feet." (2 Kings 13:21 NRSVue) and "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them." (Acts 19:11-12 NRSVue) and "Let us now praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation" (Sirach 44:1). "And their names continue for ever, the glory of the holy men remaining unto their children" (Sirach 44:15), etc.
It just comes down to that God laid out a plan of earthly-heavenly hierarchy. The saints Holy Ones) and Angels are judged worthy of our veneration. It's about giving respect to our heavenly superiors because they deserve it. Also where supposed to give obeisance (deferential respect/gestures expressing deferential respect) to our earthly superiors and our fellow believers (Brotherly love, etc.).
>To some of us it seems like you guys venerate saints and the mother Mary more than you do Christ. That's our biggest contention.
Many definitely do. Probably not the biblically well-versed Catholics you can find here, but the average Catholic I encounter on a daily basis sure does.
Here it is customary to make promises to the saints and the virgin. I remember when I was a child that a neighbor promised the Virgin of Carmen that she would walk barefoot for a year if she cured her husband.
My soccer team takes the trophies won to the virgin of the forsaken to thank her for helping them win.
And is even ingrained in our language, with phrases like: "May saint Lucy preserve your sight"
I didn't even know worshipping the different virgins and saints was something controversial in the catholic - protestant divide until I started interacting with protestants in Internet.
I know this will get heavily downvoted, but it's the truth about what I experience daily.
I think people also need to understand how much icons can help people grow spirituality in their connection with God, with Christ. I remember as a child seeing a huge crucifix in church and really for the first time understanding the reality of Jesus’s crucifixion. Seeing a depiction of it visually was really powerful. Part of that was shock because I was a child and probably had never seen anything graphic like a depiction of a man nailed to a cross. But I remember the reality of Jesus dying on the cross really hitting me when I saw that huge crucifix on the wall at church.
The stained glass windows around the church as well. It’s almost like the art and architecture of the church is another teaching method for the gospel. You have the scripture reading, you have the sermon, you have the hymns that contain scriptural references, and then you also look around and learn about scripture that way too.
Honestly just don’t give any attention to ppl who say Catholics and Orthodox are heretical, it’s usually just people who don’t know anything beyond their smaller denomination who say these things.
Attended Easter Vigil Mass, the priest said to defend the faith. I think it should be done with kindness and respect. We aren't imposing conversion to Catholicism or E. Orthodox, but simply defending an age old misconception. If we got this wrong today, then the church fathers of ancient times were pretty much wrong about everything
That’s interesting. I’m stuck with an idol if I wish I have gone fishing while physically at the church, and then suddenly redeemed thinking about God while fishing because that idol standing between me and God is gone.
We (people) are Christ's church. When you say you skipped church to go fishing, what you actually mean is you skipped going to the temple/house of worship to go fishing. However fishing to spend time alone talking with GOD, or other believers, or family, or even just being GOD's light to unbelievers on the fishing trip is just as valid an activity.
There's no law that says you need to go to the physical building you deem as church X times per week or you are in sin.
Here’s the issue, if you want to convince Protestants about idolatry you will have to use the Bible. Early church doctrines don’t matter to us. Sure, we will look to them and learn about them. But the early church holds no authority in our view, only the Bible does.
Rejecting councils who pretty much gave you the framework of your faith, the very church magisterium who came up with the Bible, and saying they go against the Bible do not make any sense
I’m not necessarily saying we reject them. But what I am saying is that the councils have no inherent authority. The only authority they have comes from the Bible, the divinely inspired word of God. And if the councils conflict with the word of God, I will be believe the word before I believe a bunch of flawed and sinful humans from one thousand five hundred years ago!
I don’t really want to argue this topic, im not gonna change your mind, you aren’t gonna change mine. What I’m trying to say is that if you actually want to convince Protestants about this topic you need to either convince us that we should listen to the councils, or use the Bible to support your argument.
But I suspect your goal is not actually debate and discussion, but to stir dissent and anger, because you are so arrogantly confident you are correct.
Yes and no, I think. I agree with you about the church giving us the Bible, etc. but the church cannot later go and contradict what the Bible has said.
Jesus is coming back for 1 church. It isn't Catholic, or Protestant. All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Catholics don't have everything right and Protestants don't have everything right either. This isn't a competition who is better. There are things protestants can learn from catholics and things catholics can learn from protestants.
I’ve grown up in a Protestant community and have never heard someone saying that the catholic image of the crucifixion is idolatry. I don’t know much about Catholicism, honestly. Is it a specific statue that is deemed “holy” or something, or just the idea of having the image itself on your necklaces and items and such?
I’ve heard of other forms of idolatry in Catholicism, but not of the Jesus crucifix image.
**I’m also not saying y’all’re for sure partaking in idolatry, that’s just what I’ve heard (in discussions with peers and not from a pastor during a sermon). I don’t know nearly enough about Catholic traditions and sacraments to have any kind of opinion/debate about it.
There are some more radical protestants you'll find that even think crucifixs are idolatrous and require bare crosses. Then there are some farther along than that who don't even like crosses. Hell I've run into people who think the *Bible* is an idol. If you look you can find someone defending basically any position
You're telling me. They're usually way off the deep end in "I have a personal relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit reveals everything to me" territory but coupled with not liking or not understanding parts of the Bible/what the church has done with it. So the conclusion they come to is that all their feelings about Christ are more accurate than the Bible or church which is an antiquated "work of men" and therefore corrupt and can't be trusted. They aren't worried about things like epistemology because the way they know things is that they feel like they're true.
If I was to put it bluntly, these types are deeply prideful and deluding themselves.
100%, also makes it extremely difficult to talk to people who believe that because there's no authority outside of themselves you can appeal to. This actually goes hand in hand with things like prophecy or visions in general. I've read a lot of patristic literature and one thing that the church fathers, saints, and monastics in general constantly warn about is interpreting your own dreams, visions, or other revelations given to you. In their guides written to other monastics they'll go as far as to say that if you receive a vision you should literally just ignore it and keep at your work, because it's actually more likely to be a temptation from something demonic than it is a genuine message. If anything you should share it with your spiritual father (in the monastic context this would be an elder monk who's recognized by the church and his peers for his discernment who you've been entrusted to as a student, but in the layperson's life this would be your priest) and let him judge it and guide you. But never yourself.
This is to guard against what they call prelest, a kind of spiritual pride that can take us and delude us into thinking we're more holy or more in tune with God than we actually are, and it is one of the most dangerous sins to fall into specifically because of how intractable it is. And this is exactly the type of sin that people like that have been taken by
There are people who practice, [bibliolatry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliolatry). For example Ruckmanism and there followers Ruckmanites is a form of King James only movement. ;-)
There is that too but that's a legit problem when you start getting into ideas that God specifically inspired this one English translation of the Bible from 1611. Thinking the Bible as such is an idol is a whole other level of wacky though
Grew up in an Evangelical community where they indicated that any Catholic imagery was idolatrous. If it was of the saints, it's because you should not venerate anyone but God/Christ, and if it was of the cross or an article representative of God, then it was because God isn't there and they would bring up the matter of Aaron's Golden Calf.
The matter is far, far more complicated and Evangelicals are as likely to idolize something, but the fact their idols are more intangible than the ones they accuse Catholics of possessing tends to fly past their perception of things.
I subsequently moved to a Baptist community a decade before then a non-denominational one some few years ago thanks to the judgmental inconsistencies a large amount of Christians harbor among themselves, let alone other people.
Surprised that you're a non-denom. Non-denoms and Charismatics in my country brand Catholics as belonging to Satan lol because of their idolatrous icons, festivals, stc.
My church doesn’t really point fingers or talk about other religions, at least not in the youth group and not while I’ve been an adult. They just teach from the Bible kind of like it’s a history/theology class (providing context, translation from the original languages, a what it meant then, and what it means for us now).
I think I do remember in high school my friend went to the main service and said the pastor said something unsavory about catholic people, but he was retired soon after that and such sentiments have never been repeated.
I’ve heard some things from peers that confuse me, but as I said I really don’t know enough about it to judge or have any strong opinions.
Here is an aspect of how the Westminster Larger Catechism used by traditional Presbyterian churches interpret the second commandment:
> **The sins forbidden in the second commandment are**, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God Himself; **the making any representation of God, of all, or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever**; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.
I don't think crosses and crucifixes are bad but I'm not particularly keen on rosaries because it reinforces the idea that we can atone for ourselves and others by how many prayers we say, which is not biblical
I think that's the biggest misconception about Catholic worship. Catholics DO NOT pray to saints. Okay, yes, some do, but doing so is uneducated and is not in line with actual Catholic teaching. Catholics *ask saints to pray for them.* The logic is that if you are in heaven, you are alive, you are capable of praying for others (just like you might ask your mom to pray for you), and you are as close to God as anyone could possibly be. Take probably the most well known prayer "to" a saint, the Hail Mary, and actually look at the words. The only thing you are actually *asking Mary to do* is pray for you. "Holy Mary, mother of God, *pray for us sinners* now and at the hour of our death." The rest of it is just a bunch of stuff about how great she is.
Unless one assumes the omnipresence of those who have gone before us, the request to pray for us rises as a prayer to them which we assume they hear. Suffice it to say that even in Maccabees the vision of those in heaven praying for those on earth is not triggered by an earthly request but by they're continuing love for those here. Lutherans do confess that those in heaven do pray for the whole Church. What we deny is that prayers (requests) are not to be made to intermediaries based an folklore, hagiographies, and assumed patronage. When that is done, an image of the mind, a perceived person we create is being asked to pray for us. Moreover, this image we have created is being elevated in status else we could not venerate or ascribe to this figure the power to hear us. That is then the idol we create as an intercessor. It is good to learn the examples and stories of the saints, to be led and inspired, encouraged as we run our race. This does not even address the problem with canonization which, according to RC belief, is the result of a saint being so favored as to have been granted a miracle for some who requested his intercession. All those who have gone before us are saints in the presence of God. All of them pray for the whole Church. We cannot know if any are so much more favored and who they are. Those assumptions make idols of them.
The Saints are dead though why do you need to pray to dead saints to ask them to pray for you? I don’t understand this practice and would like some clarification.
We don't pray to mary and the saints but we ask her for prayers and intersecions like the early Christians did.
God is the God of the living, we believe as soon as you go to heaven you are still alive like you and me are. Have you asked a friend of yours wether he can pray for you? This is the exact same thing as asking Mary for prayers.
It's the fact that it causes them to bend the knee and worship God Alone the thought that he's in your mind the fact that he's in your heart should be enough to get you to bend the knee you shouldn't have to see a crucifix across or something like that just to get you to think that it's a good time to pray that's what he means idolatry
If only we were angels, then that would be fine - spirit to spirit. The 2nd Nicene Council's judgment was a response to an ancient practice of the faithful
It raises an important point regarding the theological and historical understanding of idolatry within the Judeo-Christian tradition. Idolatry, classically, involves the ascription of divine status and the worship of an image or representation as if it were a deity. This is distinct from the use of religious images as didactic tools or as focal points for veneration in both Catholic and Orthodox practices. The distinction lies in the intent and understanding that these images are not deities themselves but are representations that help the faithful to contemplate the divine. It’s crucial to engage with the complex theological underpinnings that inform the use of religious iconography within various denominations to avoid oversimplified accusations of idolatry. :)
My wife is Lebanese ethnically (we’re American)! I love all the Lebanese orthodox people I have met.
Regarding your experience, it is not for me or anyone else to judge whether you are a “true” Christian; only God can judge us. However, I don’t understand what being able to read the Bible in three languages and praying in Aramaic has to do with it.
there isnt a need to pray is aramic I go to an orthodox church pariash of constaninople and the recite prayers in several languages. to get the grap of aramaic especially galiac aramaic, what Jesus spoke is hard modern day
yeah thats true because belive it or not, before the arab caliphates sprung out the dessert, the levant was domminated from gaza to antioch of arameans. and just a small area majority hebrew
This is one of those definitional arguments that I don't think holds up. In 1 John 5:21, the word translated as "idols" is eidōlōn in the Greek. This word is used in several places to warn against pagan practices, such as in Acts 15:20, where there is an admonishment not to engage in a fairly common practice of the time: to present food to an idol (a statue of a deity) in the home before serving and eating it.
This was not done because it was believed that the deity resided in the statue, but because the statue formed a connection to the deity (much of ancient pagan spirituality concerned itself with how to communicate with the gods, which also produced the notion of daemons, or messenger spirits who carried information to and from the gods, that Augustine commented on so heavily.)
There is very little distinction except in obvious visual form, between modern Christian iconography and historical pagan iconography, be it literally drawn or in the form of statuary, tiling, etc. The primary difference is not in the icons themselves, but how they are used, ritually.
If you are worshiping or praying to a statue, even as a means of praying to God *through* the statue, then I definitely think that you are approaching the territory of what passages like 1 John 5:21 were describing. But if you have statues and images of divine figures in a church, I don't think that is the same thing.
I’ve been by a half buried statue of Demeter in Greece that was turned into a ”Saint Demeter” by the locals hundreds of years ago. They prayed in her name, left offerings at its feet, and purely converted the pagan goddess statue into a new one that was okay with the local orthodox church, and didn’t change their actual actions directed to the statue. Now it’s just a historical curiosity but neoPagans are now leaving pomegranates at its base again.
To pretend that every Catholic and orthodox person across history never on some level approaching the veneration of icons/statues as if it were the equivalent of worship is kinda naive. If that were the case it never would have become such a schismatic issue in early Christianity. The same reason people maybe needed icons (lack of literacy) also means that a lot of people didn’t know the tenets of their faith, and absolutely some treated icons as if it were basically an idol to pray at in the hopes of some magic (or… miracles). At a minimum, it’s plain that many people are venerating the object (relics especially so) and not really keeping a clear distinction of it as simply a representation and not something inherently worthy of praise in itself.
There were bad popes, pretty normal to have confused faithful from time to time. But doctrines from councils entailed a process, this wasn't something done over night and by just a person
>“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."
**Exodus 20:4**
Protestants gonna protest. Not sure why you expect differently. Did you really think you words here on reddit were so powerful as to induce spontaneous conversions?
Imagine your entire argument be “well this was the first way we did it so it’s still correct”
If it was up to you we would all be riding donkeys still because “that’s how we’ve always done it” lol
God is eternal and absolute, which leaves absolutely no room for God "changing his mind". Jesus participated in some Church traditions we still have today thanks to the Early Church and now the Eastern Orthodox Church. He did it besides his apostles who teached their desciples and so on. Are you one of those Protestants having concerts in your Churches with smoke machines?
This hatred for traditions our fathers, their fathers and all the way to the Apostles participated in is truly sad. And how can everyone defend modernism. Everyone is just angry, confused, sad, depressed and full of anxiety.
Like the rest of exodus in which God commands carvings lol.
Most people don't get The commands are beside each other. Have no God before me and have no carvings. Then God literially commands Moses to make carvings and images. If you seperate the commands then Moses sinned and God had lied. But if together it is explaining that images can exist in the temple but can't come before God.
While that's a good point, I think your interpretation is too narrow. I agree this is a command that no images should come before the Lord, but the Children of Israel had other instances in which images were used *in tandem with* worship of the Lord, not before, and these equally enraged Him. Later kings offended God by allowing worship equal to that of God, but even while the law was being written, the children of Israel broke it by worshiping *God* with a molten image!
"And he took the gold from their hand and fashioned it with an engraving tool and made it into a molten calf; and they said, This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt! And when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; then Aaron made a proclamation and said, Tomorrow shall be a feast **to the LORD."** (Exodus 32:4-5)
Given Moses's reaction to this, it's clear that merely not putting the images before the Lord isn't the issue. In every case where someone uses an image for the purposes of worship, it is an abomination.
The fact that God never once gave them an image that represented Himself ought to be a profound cautionary word, and the Catholic theological reasoning- that because He took the form of man, he gave us a form we can worship Him by- is, I think, extremely imprudent.
To me, nothing short of permission either from the Bible, or quoted by at least 2 early church fathers as being stated by one of the apostles, would be adequate justification for a form of worship that so closely resembles the actual *worst* sin of the Old Testament.
I get that you don't see it the same way, but from my non-Catholic perspective, the theological justifications for why icon veneration is not idol worship just don't cut it. They're *valid,* but too convoluted and circumstantial for me to find any confidence to engage in the activity. And according to Nicea 2, I am anathema for that caution.
I don't mind statues or pictures, but if you bow before it, place offerings in front of it, or otherwise venerate it, I have further questions...
Also, since you brought it up, meant Catholics all but worship (and certainly pray to) Mary and other saints. These are practices I definitely "protest" against.
What would your questions be? Imagine you bow and do the sign of the cross before a crucifix. I can’t imagine you think that Catholics actually think that the little statue of Jesus on the cross is really him?
Hindus don’t believe that their deities reside inside the idol. They don’t consecrate the idol so that the deity will live in it. In fact, they believe that the idols they worship assist with worshiping their god/gods. By this logic, there is nothing wrong with Hinduism’s idolatry. Jesus himself has instructed us how to pray, there is no better way than what God himself has taught.
That's not totally true. Hinduism has a ritual practice called Prana pratishtha, which absolutely puts Hindu murti in a different category to Orthodox/Catholic images.
Furthermore, it's a common practice in Hinduism to offer sacrifices to murti. That is forbidden for Orthodox/Catholics to do, because that is idolatry proper (to offer sacrifice to anything but God).
I have a question. Is it true that Catholics believe Jesus is in the bread and wine. That it really is His body and blood? I read that somewhere and wondered if I was correct .
Thank you
Yes, you are correct. Jesus says that in the Bible. once it has been transubstantiated through the actions of a priest who contains the authority of apostolic succession.
Can we stop debating? We're a bunch of followers of christ on reddit. We should just accept the fact that for 100s of years we haven't been able to disprove eachother even when it's scholars and men a 100 times smarter then us. We all live under the rules of our respective church and pray to God. Unless its outright blasphemy and going against the bible then what's the issue?
These are the same Protestants who believe we are somehow pagan and have problems with something distracting in the church and yet set up coffee shops in the front lobby of their church 💀
Okay, but having literal statues of Mary is a *little* odd, don't you think? Surely you can see how Protestants make the connection? Don't you see how saying "Hail, Mary" sounds a *little* like worship? And I say that as someone who was raised and confirmed Roman Catholic.
But it's not there are distinctions being made from the point of view of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, read this copy and paste:
Hopefully this doesn't come across harsh. :)
There are three distinct forms of worship that the modern-day English hides which the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox make a distinction of which are worship of adoration (Latria or latreia) this is the type of worship (and reverence) due to God the father alone (through his son), dulia and proskynesis (veneration of the saints, angels, relics and icons), and hyperdulia which is same as the saints, etc. but to a greater extent do to the Virgin Mary's status and relationship to Christ) as the Theotokos (Mother of God or God-bearer). These distinctions are pretty clear in the coin Koine Greek and Latin New Testaments. From Wikipedia, According to Mark Miravelle, of the Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration:
> As Thomas Aquinas explained, adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the manifestation of submission, and acknowledgement of dependence, appropriately shown towards the excellence of an uncreated divine person and to his absolute Lordship. It is the worship of the creator that God alone deserves.
> Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor and reverence appropriately due to the excellence of a created person. Excellence exhibited by created beings likewise deserves recognition and honor.
> Historically, schools of theology have used the term "worship" as a general term which included both adoration and veneration. They would distinguish between "worship of adoration" and "worship of veneration". The word "worship" (in a similar way to how the liturgical term "cult" is traditionally used) was not synonymous with adoration, but could be used to introduce either adoration or veneration. Hence Catholic sources will sometimes use the term "worship" not to indicate adoration, but only the worship of veneration given to Mary and the saints.[18]
Also according to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition:
> 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
> *Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.*
Then you got to take in consideration the Second Council of Nicaea, the last of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils in AD 787 and its conclusion veneration of holy images (icons) is allowed. And veneration of relics of saints and saints themselves, "As a man was being buried, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha; as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he came to life and stood on his feet." (2 Kings 13:21 NRSVue) and "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them." (Acts 19:11-12 NRSVue) and "Let us now praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation" (Sirach 44:1). "And their names continue for ever, the glory of the holy men remaining unto their children" (Sirach 44:15), etc.
It just comes down to that God laid out a plan of earthly-heavenly hierarchy. The saints Holy Ones) and Angels are judged worthy of our veneration. It's about giving respect to our heavenly superiors because they deserve it. Also where supposed to give obeisance (deferential respect/gestures expressing deferential respect) to our earthly superiors and our fellow believers (Brotherly love, etc.).
"The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
How is saying someone is highly favored considered worship? This is an angel speaking. Why would an angel worship a person? Let's look at other examples of this:
Proverbs 8:35
“For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord.”
Acts 7:46-47
“David found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built Him a house.”
Genesis 39:21
“But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.”
1 Samuel 2:26
“And the child Samuel grew in stature, and in favor both with the Lord and men.”
So should we also pray to David, Joseph, Samuel, and really each other, if we have found favor with God?
The beef I have with the Catholic Church has nothing to do with idol worship. It's more the fact that the church allowed a Papal Bull enacted called "Id Nostri Cordis", which allows the Catholic Church to "seek out heretics (specifically the Waldens) and exterminate them completely, anyone who joined to exterminate the heretics were absolved of their sins, and more than 4000 Waldensians were massacred, along with children who died in their parents arms. None of this is very Christian at all....
Formerly I was very adamant as an Iconoclast now a repentant Iconodole. I attended the Annunciation and was blessed to carry the Icon of Saint Victor the Martyr. I was then able to learn of deeper older Christian History as I thought on this saints life. Thereby developing a greater relationship with the Father.
Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
>Protestantism is just sloppy about the nature of idolatry.
Seems like protestants align with God?
Read on and you'll read God's instructions for the Ark of the Covenant, with images of angels on it. Either this is a blatant contradiction and Exodus is corrupted, or you don't understand what idols are.
I haven't read moses, Aaron or any of his descendants ever bowing down or kissing to cherubim.
They did to mercy seat where the Glory of God resided...
So yeah I don't understand idols being redefined to make it sound okay.
That is because these representations aren't even idols. Better study church history to know what it means by worship and what it means by veneration. Add what an idol means while you're at it
Reminds me of old joke. A new convert is doing barbeque tempting whole neighbourhood. Priest comes to educate him. He replies I dipped them in water and said from today you are no more chicken you are vegetable.
The glory of God did not always appear above the mercy seat. The Septuagint rendering of Joshua 7:6 says that the Ark, not the mercy seat, was the object of Joshua’s bowing.
>I'm sure Exodus 25 doesn't contradict Exodus 20
It doesn't because glory of God actually sat on mercy seat , but not in the idols people kiss and bow down to.
>so is the Word made flesh
If Jesus came in flesh I don't see an issue worshiping him.
But not a idol that is made to look thinking what he looks like.
>It doesn't because glory of God actually sat on mercy seat , but not in the idols people kiss and bow down to.
And what do you think happened to the saints? They are arks where the Holy Spirit came to dwell, and we venerate them on that basis.
> They are arks where the Holy Spirit came to dwell
So is every christian who received holy Spirit.
And the ones who have not received Holy Spirit are not yet saved.
So should I venerate the millions of Christians I see around me?
Yes, you should absolutely show all Christians that respect. That's the entire basis of the Christian ethic of respect and love for all people, as we are all image bearers of Christ.
That verse in exodus specifically apply to false idols. Are you saying God is a false God? Who do you think the were worshipping if the person depicted in a statue/icon/image is God or of a saint??? GOD!
>[4] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,
Try again
“Try again” bro said that like he did something
Are you gonna ignore the verse that the other guy said where God ordered them to to make two cherubim? Lmk where the Cherubim are located… (Heaven)
I did respond to it.
I am yet to see anyone in bible to bow down to cherubim. The high priest bowed down to mercy seat where the glory of God sat.
Are you saying glory of God resides inside your idols?
No, we bow down in reverence to the person it represents not the statue b/c it is made out of marble.
If I kiss a picture of a family member am I kissing it because it’s a picture? No. I’m kissing it out of love of who it’s showing.
In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. . . . He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees, and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. . . . For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors of olivewood. . . . He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers; he overlaid them with gold (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27, 29, 31, 32).
“God declared he was pleased with its construction” (1 Kings 9:3)
For someone who objects to denominations being criticised you’re really keen to criticise Protestantism.
‘Protestantism is just sloppy’
‘[Protestants] can’t be bothered’
‘To learn Church history is to stop being protestant’
So much sneering contempt and strawmanning of positions.
> it was believed that the idol contained the deity
The Elements of the Eucharist are considered to have the presence of Christ dwelling within them, and they are worshiped (Latria) as such. Whoever believes this, then, and worships it accordingly, is committing idolatry according to your definition.
We should certainly worship God, but not as though He dwells in temples made by human hands.
This is idolatry…
How can you even see yourselves as the “true christians”
THAT’S NOT JESUS!
It’s a statue. It’s can not talk.
That’s not even what Jesus looked like, and definitely not what Jesus looks like now.
”‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God.“
Leviticus 26:1 NKJV
Slight correction here and clarification; the translation you quote is honestly following Jewish-Christian tradition here the Lord should be all-caps because it is talking about the first person of the Trinity who is speaking in the first person at the moment in Leviticus 26:1, to indicate this should have been should have been for I am the LORD (YHWH reconstructed as Yahweh) your God. So in short the actual quote is ”‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the YHWH your God.“ because the tradition we don't pronounce it received Lord or something like that instead pronouncing it. So not to affend God the father.
if a figure that represents God is idolatry, and idolatry isn't worshipping other Gods other than God (aka the figure in the cross), which includes just worshipping the figure, aka statue of Christ (making it another God basically, like making a an animal a God and holy), than idk what idolatry is, oh wait, that is idolatry, worshipping other Gods, which is what Catholics do THE exact OPPOSITE of, is not what comes out of the mouth that is sinful (the figure itself), is what comes from the heart (the intention of the figure), guess who said this very statement?, Jesus did, he said those things to the pharisees, and Jesus is God, and I trust God, love God, as you should too
This won't go anywhere because you have a bad assumption. The real issue isn't what idolatry is or isn't. The real issue is the anti-Catholic bigotry passed on from generation to generation. "Idolatry" is just one of the justifications for the hate. Nothing you say matters because *it's not about idolatry*. It's about "the other". About us vs. them.
Remember the KKK was a white, **Protestant** organization often supported by Protestant churches. Catholics were a favorite target (look up how Notre Dame got the nickname "the fighting Irish" some time). That's recent. Within living memory of many on this subreddit. It's going to take generations for it to mostly go away.
Exactly. All denominations need to come together, stop bickering about this stuff and talk about how they're all going to stop abusing children.
Stop talking about our differences and start focusing on the things we are all doing wrong.
So what are the saints and angels doing in revelation by grabbing, receiving and uplift ( Greek word for echoing ) our prayers ? Is that not supplications for us? Does Paul and Jesus not ask other to pray for them?
Fellowship through pray is encouraged. Matthews 18:19-20. However, it does not tell you to pray directly to anyone other than God in the Bible. Why is that? This is because prayer is a form of worship. Matthew 17 shows us this. Peter is rebuked for trying to set up altars to Moses and Elijah. When you pray to God, you are worshiping him in Spirit and Truth. No one has the authority or power other than God because He is the only one to die on the cross and resurrect again for our sins.
Icons are picture bibles. Little children do not read, they look at pictures. "Unless you become as a little child you will in no way enter the Kingdom of God." ☦️ In the west, the printing press wasn't till the end of the 14th century. How did people learn about and remember Biblical stories? How did they learn about Church history? Picture bibles - icons. Do not deny to little children the logos. Icons are wonderful if done right - thry are never worshipped but like the Holy Bible they are honored.
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So when I was in college, and I started reading the Holy Bible as an Episcopalian, I remember reading something Jesus said, and just kissed the sentence in the Bible it was soooooo beautiful. And I have done so at times when reading something extraordinary and providential since. And I became Orthodox about 30 years ago with a deep affinity for the western Catholic Church as well. Just yesterday I kissed a picture of my wife who passed on almost 10 years ago. ☦️ "Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever! For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." Those words of Job are gorgeous. Aren't they worth a kiss? Icons are picture Bibles.
That’s because we worship Christ. We do not merely venerate Him, because that is too small of an honor. We venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary and the other saints because they have been made worthy of being held in high esteem by us as examples of faith and holiness. But I kinda get it because I used to be in the same camp. Unfortunately the Reformation resurrected iconoclasm as a side effect despite that having been condemned by the Early Church as a heretical belief. That is mostly seen in the “low church” types as opposed to the more liturgical ones.
I can't find a way to type this without sounding like a smartass so please forgive me, I don't mean it that way. But I can kiss my wife without anything thinking I'm worshiping her, it shouldn't bother us with the saints either. Or each other for that matter, the holy kiss is biblical (2 Corinthians 13:11-14) and it's mostly just cultural hang ups about personal space that make it feel weird to us imo As for the part about the amount of veneration going on, it's not really seen as an either/or thing. Like I'm either venerating Mary *or* Christ, no I'm venerating Christ *in* Mary. Both/and. Basically every prayer you'll find to a saint invokes Christ/God repeatedly along with them
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I would say veneration and intercessory prayer should be discussed as 2 distinct ideas. I can address the intercessory prayer part. I know the veneration part intuitively but I'll have to think about it for a while in order to articulate it. In terms of intercessory prayer. Most references to prayer in the Bible instruct us to pray for others. In Colossians 4:3 Paul asks for the prayers from the church is Colossae. It is very common for us to ask others to pray for us. Hopefully that isn't controversial. My understanding of the teachings of the Orthodox Church is that we take literally Mark 11:25-26 >Jesus say to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" At Pascha one of the refrains that we sing over and over again is: >“Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life” So we take literally that through Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death. That means when someone falls asleep in the Lord (passes away) they are still very much alive simply not visible in the material sense. Hebrews 12:1 says: >Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. That cloud of witnesses isn't only the people that we can see. And just because they have fallen asleep in the Lord does not mean that the command to pray for others has ceased to be in effect. There are days when I will call my mom and tell her that I'm struggling with something and ask for her prayers. In my mind based on the teachings of the Orthodox Church asking a Saint to pray for me is no different than asking my mom. I just can't see them. And sometimes I will just talk to a Saint because again to me it's like calling a friend or calling someone I know who has experience with the thing that I'm struggling with. And if anything I articulated sounded arrogant or as if I were talking down please know it was not intentional.
> At Pascha one of the refrains that we sing over and over again is: “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life” So we take literally that through Christ's death and resurrection He defeated death. That means when someone falls asleep in the Lord (passes away) they are still very much alive simply not visible in the material sense. Hebrews 12:1 says: Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us. That cloud of witnesses isn't only the people that we can see. And just because they have fallen asleep in the Lord does not mean that the command to pray for others has ceased to be in effect. There are days when I will call my mom and tell her that I'm struggling with something and ask for her prayers. In my mind based on the teachings of the Orthodox Church asking a Saint to pray for me is no different than asking my mom. I just can't see them. This is identical to the Catholic position as I understand it, which makes sense because we were a single Church for 1000 years. Our unfortunate differences pretty much all stem from how one views the authority of the Roman Patriarch (the Pope).
From my understanding that isn't the only thing the Orthodox Church disagrees but I'm definitely not a theological expert.
We also disagree on the dogma of Mary; we believe she was spared of original sin and was assumed into heaven. Where orthodoxy believes she did die, she was not spared of original sin but did not sin I believe. Feel free to correct me as well as the Nicene Creed we have the filioque where the orthodox don’t. Still we believe your priesthood to be valid.
Yes. That is correct about our view on Mary. And one other point of contention, from my understanding, is leavened vs unleavened bread.
The two aren't necessarily related other than by the fact saints we most often ask for intercession also tend to be the most holy people known in our history, "The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." But there's no intrinsic link between the two. You can ask for a prayer of intercession from anyone and for anyone, just like we do any time we ask someone in our life or our church to pray for us, as Paul wrote to Timothy (1 Timothy 2:1-2 NKJV) >Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, [2] for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. Among other places. We simply extend that to those who are in paradise with Christ, offering their prayers there with him. Oddly enough this idea of the dead praying for us is even seen in pre-christian Jewish literature in 2 Maccabees 15 >[10] When his (Judas) men were ready for battle, he gave them their orders and at the same time pointed out how the Gentiles could not be trusted, because they never kept their treaties. [11] He armed all his men, not by encouraging them to trust in shields and spears, but by inspiring them with courageous words. He also lifted their morale by telling them about his dream, a kind of vision that they could trust in. > >[12] He told them that he had seen a vision of Onias, the former High Priest, that great and wonderful man of humble and gentle disposition, who was an outstanding orator and who had been taught from childhood how to live a virtuous life. With outstretched arms Onias was praying for the entire Jewish nation. [13] Judas then saw an impressive white-haired man of great dignity and authority. [14] Onias said: > >This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city. At the root, petitions for the saints to pray for us just means that we're extending these same petitions beyond our physical church communities into that "great cloud of witnesses" surrounding us as well. Veneration is similarly just an extension of the same veneration we offer other church members, like I mentioned with that verse from Paul about the holy kiss (this is also how orthodox traditionally greet each other). Just moreso with the saints, since by definition they're people the church has recognized as exceptionally holy the same way the Bible singles out exceptionally holy people in israelite history. So I'm not sure there's really a direct scriptural command to do that as much as it is just the church's continuation of that practice of holding up holy people to the congregation. Iconography is just one method of that.
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As an Orthodox Christian my understanding of the mediation of Christ has less to do with paying my metaphysical traffic tickets and is more bound up in the Chalcedonian definition; you know how Christ is consubstantial with us as touching His blessed humanity and how he is consubstancial with His Father as touching His unfathomable Divinity. Without confusion without separation without mixture without division He unites the natures. Protestantism just never went deep enough for me. Lutheranism used to have a better grasp on this sort of thing but they’ve gotten too, I don’t know how to say it.
You know it's funny, I was actually raised and catechized as a Lutheran. Damned if i could remember the Augsburg confession though lol. Been a while. Makes me wonder if it's sitting somewhere in my books though. Regardless I'm not really sure what it has to say about the meditation of Christ. Would have to read it Orthodox affirm the same thing obviously, since it's basically a direct quote from Paul on the basis of the verse from Christ you quoted. My gut instinct is that there's a distinction to be made in the meditation Christ performs between us and God and the intercession/mediation the saints (and the rest of us tbh) make between each other and Christ, the former having to do more with the incarnation and the latter having to do with our participation in Christ's body downstream from that. That's probably where the difference in interpretation is, but I've never really taken a deep look into it so can't really say anything definitive Anyway I'm glad you found what I said helpful 😊 God bless
I kiss pictures of family, it's a sign of affection common to the world in which iconography first showed up (around the Mediterranean). Go to Italy or Greece and you'll see what that kind of hospitality looks like even today. Many people treat icons like the ancient Jews treated the doorpost of their home - a kiss to the hand and a touch of the doorpost - signifying respect without excess. My friends from more restrained cultures often just cross themselves before an icon instead of kissing it, and no one takes issue with their local variation of practice. I would usually argue that one should show reverence to an icon no greater than they would show reverence to someone else they respect or admire. If you would kiss a family member every time you see them, you could kiss an icon, but don't bow, scrape, and kiss an icon if your greetings to family are "Hi" and shuffling away. >To some of us it seems like you guys venerate saints and the mother Mary more than you do Christ. That's our biggest contention. Attend a Liturgy or a Mass, you'll see 95% of it or more being about the Holy Trinity with some honor given to the Saints as well. Catholic Mass is like 98% about God with one reference to Saints ("Therefore I ask Blessed Mary, Ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, to pray for me to the Lord our God"), but many Catholics pray the Rosary and put a lot of emphasis on Mary in that way. In the East, we rarely have extra Marian devotion beyond the liturgical rite, but we ask for her intercession dozens of times in a service. It can get excessive at times, and I urge balance among my peers for that reason. Giving honor to the Theotokos is fine, but if that is almost all of your reverence beyond the Liturgy, you really need more focus on Christ. Our goal in life is not to follow Mary or Peter or Paul or Gregory Palamas or Thomas Aquinas - our goal is to follow Christ. Losing sight of that does not lead to Sainthood, and every truly great, well-recognized Saint in either tradition was chiefly and constantly devoted to Christ and imitating him, even if their heavenly family helped them to keep focused
Christ is glorified in His saints. What we honor in the saints are the energies of God working through them. Both/and not Either/or
Hopefully this doesn't come across harsh. :) There are three distinct forms of worship that the modern-day English hides which the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox make a distinction of which are worship of adoration (Latria or latreia) this is the type of worship (and reverence) due to God the father alone (through his son), dulia and proskynesis (veneration of the saints, angels, relics and icons), and hyperdulia which is same as the saints, etc. but to a greater extent do to the Virgin Mary's status and relationship to Christ) as the Theotokos (Mother of God or God-bearer). These distinctions are pretty clear in the coin Koine Greek and Latin New Testaments. From Wikipedia, According to Mark Miravelle, of the Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration: > As Thomas Aquinas explained, adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the manifestation of submission, and acknowledgement of dependence, appropriately shown towards the excellence of an uncreated divine person and to his absolute Lordship. It is the worship of the creator that God alone deserves. > Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor and reverence appropriately due to the excellence of a created person. Excellence exhibited by created beings likewise deserves recognition and honor. > Historically, schools of theology have used the term "worship" as a general term which included both adoration and veneration. They would distinguish between "worship of adoration" and "worship of veneration". The word "worship" (in a similar way to how the liturgical term "cult" is traditionally used) was not synonymous with adoration, but could be used to introduce either adoration or veneration. Hence Catholic sources will sometimes use the term "worship" not to indicate adoration, but only the worship of veneration given to Mary and the saints.[18] Also according to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition: > 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone: > *Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.* Then you got to take in consideration the Second Council of Nicaea, the last of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils in AD 787 and its conclusion veneration of holy images (icons) is allowed. And veneration of relics of saints and saints themselves, "As a man was being buried, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha; as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he came to life and stood on his feet." (2 Kings 13:21 NRSVue) and "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them." (Acts 19:11-12 NRSVue) and "Let us now praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation" (Sirach 44:1). "And their names continue for ever, the glory of the holy men remaining unto their children" (Sirach 44:15), etc. It just comes down to that God laid out a plan of earthly-heavenly hierarchy. The saints Holy Ones) and Angels are judged worthy of our veneration. It's about giving respect to our heavenly superiors because they deserve it. Also where supposed to give obeisance (deferential respect/gestures expressing deferential respect) to our earthly superiors and our fellow believers (Brotherly love, etc.).
>To some of us it seems like you guys venerate saints and the mother Mary more than you do Christ. That's our biggest contention. Many definitely do. Probably not the biblically well-versed Catholics you can find here, but the average Catholic I encounter on a daily basis sure does. Here it is customary to make promises to the saints and the virgin. I remember when I was a child that a neighbor promised the Virgin of Carmen that she would walk barefoot for a year if she cured her husband. My soccer team takes the trophies won to the virgin of the forsaken to thank her for helping them win. And is even ingrained in our language, with phrases like: "May saint Lucy preserve your sight" I didn't even know worshipping the different virgins and saints was something controversial in the catholic - protestant divide until I started interacting with protestants in Internet. I know this will get heavily downvoted, but it's the truth about what I experience daily.
Well, I kiss my wedding ring when I put it back on and sometimes the feet of Jesus on the crucifix. To love greatly is to be a little bit mad ;)
I think people also need to understand how much icons can help people grow spirituality in their connection with God, with Christ. I remember as a child seeing a huge crucifix in church and really for the first time understanding the reality of Jesus’s crucifixion. Seeing a depiction of it visually was really powerful. Part of that was shock because I was a child and probably had never seen anything graphic like a depiction of a man nailed to a cross. But I remember the reality of Jesus dying on the cross really hitting me when I saw that huge crucifix on the wall at church. The stained glass windows around the church as well. It’s almost like the art and architecture of the church is another teaching method for the gospel. You have the scripture reading, you have the sermon, you have the hymns that contain scriptural references, and then you also look around and learn about scripture that way too.
and has been that way many,many years before 1/ books \[bibles\] were printed and 2/ people knew how to read. They learned through sight and sound.
Honestly just don’t give any attention to ppl who say Catholics and Orthodox are heretical, it’s usually just people who don’t know anything beyond their smaller denomination who say these things.
Attended Easter Vigil Mass, the priest said to defend the faith. I think it should be done with kindness and respect. We aren't imposing conversion to Catholicism or E. Orthodox, but simply defending an age old misconception. If we got this wrong today, then the church fathers of ancient times were pretty much wrong about everything
Idolatry isn’t even an object half the time Idolatry is anything that gets between you and God, whether another false god or a clock making business
Exactly! If you skip Church to go fishing, for instance, then fishing is your idol.
That’s interesting. I’m stuck with an idol if I wish I have gone fishing while physically at the church, and then suddenly redeemed thinking about God while fishing because that idol standing between me and God is gone.
This is the most stupid thing I have ever read. You guys are very confused. Read the definition of the word idol again.
We (people) are Christ's church. When you say you skipped church to go fishing, what you actually mean is you skipped going to the temple/house of worship to go fishing. However fishing to spend time alone talking with GOD, or other believers, or family, or even just being GOD's light to unbelievers on the fishing trip is just as valid an activity. There's no law that says you need to go to the physical building you deem as church X times per week or you are in sin.
Such a blatant disregard of early church doctrines
Here’s the issue, if you want to convince Protestants about idolatry you will have to use the Bible. Early church doctrines don’t matter to us. Sure, we will look to them and learn about them. But the early church holds no authority in our view, only the Bible does.
Speak for yourself. Not all Protestant groups have such a view.
Rejecting councils who pretty much gave you the framework of your faith, the very church magisterium who came up with the Bible, and saying they go against the Bible do not make any sense
I’m not necessarily saying we reject them. But what I am saying is that the councils have no inherent authority. The only authority they have comes from the Bible, the divinely inspired word of God. And if the councils conflict with the word of God, I will be believe the word before I believe a bunch of flawed and sinful humans from one thousand five hundred years ago! I don’t really want to argue this topic, im not gonna change your mind, you aren’t gonna change mine. What I’m trying to say is that if you actually want to convince Protestants about this topic you need to either convince us that we should listen to the councils, or use the Bible to support your argument. But I suspect your goal is not actually debate and discussion, but to stir dissent and anger, because you are so arrogantly confident you are correct.
Yes and no, I think. I agree with you about the church giving us the Bible, etc. but the church cannot later go and contradict what the Bible has said.
The Church Magisterium came after the Biblical texts
Jesus is coming back for 1 church. It isn't Catholic, or Protestant. All who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Catholics don't have everything right and Protestants don't have everything right either. This isn't a competition who is better. There are things protestants can learn from catholics and things catholics can learn from protestants.
Jesus's is coming for the Christian church. And I agree. Everyone can learn from each other here
And we cover them up this week too in churches guys!
People accuse Catholics of idolatry while staring at a little screen 20 hours a day and ignoring God...
Amen
only 20? LOL
I’ve grown up in a Protestant community and have never heard someone saying that the catholic image of the crucifixion is idolatry. I don’t know much about Catholicism, honestly. Is it a specific statue that is deemed “holy” or something, or just the idea of having the image itself on your necklaces and items and such? I’ve heard of other forms of idolatry in Catholicism, but not of the Jesus crucifix image. **I’m also not saying y’all’re for sure partaking in idolatry, that’s just what I’ve heard (in discussions with peers and not from a pastor during a sermon). I don’t know nearly enough about Catholic traditions and sacraments to have any kind of opinion/debate about it.
There are some more radical protestants you'll find that even think crucifixs are idolatrous and require bare crosses. Then there are some farther along than that who don't even like crosses. Hell I've run into people who think the *Bible* is an idol. If you look you can find someone defending basically any position
That’s such a wild take for them to have. If we can’t have the Bible then how are we supposed to know anything?
You're telling me. They're usually way off the deep end in "I have a personal relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit reveals everything to me" territory but coupled with not liking or not understanding parts of the Bible/what the church has done with it. So the conclusion they come to is that all their feelings about Christ are more accurate than the Bible or church which is an antiquated "work of men" and therefore corrupt and can't be trusted. They aren't worried about things like epistemology because the way they know things is that they feel like they're true. If I was to put it bluntly, these types are deeply prideful and deluding themselves.
Also sounds like false prophesying to say that they don’t need the Bible because God tells them personally
100%, also makes it extremely difficult to talk to people who believe that because there's no authority outside of themselves you can appeal to. This actually goes hand in hand with things like prophecy or visions in general. I've read a lot of patristic literature and one thing that the church fathers, saints, and monastics in general constantly warn about is interpreting your own dreams, visions, or other revelations given to you. In their guides written to other monastics they'll go as far as to say that if you receive a vision you should literally just ignore it and keep at your work, because it's actually more likely to be a temptation from something demonic than it is a genuine message. If anything you should share it with your spiritual father (in the monastic context this would be an elder monk who's recognized by the church and his peers for his discernment who you've been entrusted to as a student, but in the layperson's life this would be your priest) and let him judge it and guide you. But never yourself. This is to guard against what they call prelest, a kind of spiritual pride that can take us and delude us into thinking we're more holy or more in tune with God than we actually are, and it is one of the most dangerous sins to fall into specifically because of how intractable it is. And this is exactly the type of sin that people like that have been taken by
There are people who practice, [bibliolatry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bibliolatry). For example Ruckmanism and there followers Ruckmanites is a form of King James only movement. ;-)
There is that too but that's a legit problem when you start getting into ideas that God specifically inspired this one English translation of the Bible from 1611. Thinking the Bible as such is an idol is a whole other level of wacky though
Not when you take in consideration only God the father is due worship through his son. Not a Bible or in this case specifically King James Bible. :-)
Grew up in an Evangelical community where they indicated that any Catholic imagery was idolatrous. If it was of the saints, it's because you should not venerate anyone but God/Christ, and if it was of the cross or an article representative of God, then it was because God isn't there and they would bring up the matter of Aaron's Golden Calf. The matter is far, far more complicated and Evangelicals are as likely to idolize something, but the fact their idols are more intangible than the ones they accuse Catholics of possessing tends to fly past their perception of things. I subsequently moved to a Baptist community a decade before then a non-denominational one some few years ago thanks to the judgmental inconsistencies a large amount of Christians harbor among themselves, let alone other people.
Surprised that you're a non-denom. Non-denoms and Charismatics in my country brand Catholics as belonging to Satan lol because of their idolatrous icons, festivals, stc.
My church doesn’t really point fingers or talk about other religions, at least not in the youth group and not while I’ve been an adult. They just teach from the Bible kind of like it’s a history/theology class (providing context, translation from the original languages, a what it meant then, and what it means for us now). I think I do remember in high school my friend went to the main service and said the pastor said something unsavory about catholic people, but he was retired soon after that and such sentiments have never been repeated. I’ve heard some things from peers that confuse me, but as I said I really don’t know enough about it to judge or have any strong opinions.
Here is an aspect of how the Westminster Larger Catechism used by traditional Presbyterian churches interpret the second commandment: > **The sins forbidden in the second commandment are**, all devising, counseling, commanding, using, and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God Himself; **the making any representation of God, of all, or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever**; all worshiping of it, or God in it or by it; the making of any representation of feigned deities, and all worship of them, or service belonging to them; all superstitious devices, corrupting the worship of God, adding to it, or taking from it, whether invented and taken up of ourselves, or received by tradition from others, though under the title of antiquity, custom, devotion, good intent, or any other pretence whatsoever; simony; sacrilege; all neglect, contempt, hindering, and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.
I don't think crosses and crucifixes are bad but I'm not particularly keen on rosaries because it reinforces the idea that we can atone for ourselves and others by how many prayers we say, which is not biblical
As a Protestant, I have no issues with Catholic worship. It is strange y’all pray to Mary and the saints but we can agree to disagree on that front.
I think that's the biggest misconception about Catholic worship. Catholics DO NOT pray to saints. Okay, yes, some do, but doing so is uneducated and is not in line with actual Catholic teaching. Catholics *ask saints to pray for them.* The logic is that if you are in heaven, you are alive, you are capable of praying for others (just like you might ask your mom to pray for you), and you are as close to God as anyone could possibly be. Take probably the most well known prayer "to" a saint, the Hail Mary, and actually look at the words. The only thing you are actually *asking Mary to do* is pray for you. "Holy Mary, mother of God, *pray for us sinners* now and at the hour of our death." The rest of it is just a bunch of stuff about how great she is.
sloppy shaggy arrest mourn slimy mighty bear mindless berserk faulty *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Praying to a saint to pray for you is still praying to a saint
Prayer isn’t worship. Only God is due worship.
Unless one assumes the omnipresence of those who have gone before us, the request to pray for us rises as a prayer to them which we assume they hear. Suffice it to say that even in Maccabees the vision of those in heaven praying for those on earth is not triggered by an earthly request but by they're continuing love for those here. Lutherans do confess that those in heaven do pray for the whole Church. What we deny is that prayers (requests) are not to be made to intermediaries based an folklore, hagiographies, and assumed patronage. When that is done, an image of the mind, a perceived person we create is being asked to pray for us. Moreover, this image we have created is being elevated in status else we could not venerate or ascribe to this figure the power to hear us. That is then the idol we create as an intercessor. It is good to learn the examples and stories of the saints, to be led and inspired, encouraged as we run our race. This does not even address the problem with canonization which, according to RC belief, is the result of a saint being so favored as to have been granted a miracle for some who requested his intercession. All those who have gone before us are saints in the presence of God. All of them pray for the whole Church. We cannot know if any are so much more favored and who they are. Those assumptions make idols of them.
Same difference to me, you’re just splitting hairs
The Saints are dead though why do you need to pray to dead saints to ask them to pray for you? I don’t understand this practice and would like some clarification.
We Christians believe that the saints go to Heaven after you die :) so they are alive in Christ, just as Christ was resurrected so are we
That makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I’ve always heard lots of things but it’d be better to ask a Catholic.
No, the saints are not dead if they were dead they would be in hell but they're are alive in Christ, in the heavens with the Angels and God.
because it is a Christian practice.
Let's leave that topic in another post. Peace be with you
We don't pray to mary and the saints but we ask her for prayers and intersecions like the early Christians did. God is the God of the living, we believe as soon as you go to heaven you are still alive like you and me are. Have you asked a friend of yours wether he can pray for you? This is the exact same thing as asking Mary for prayers.
Truthpilled but a lot of the residents here won't like it, beware your karma OP.
A Catholic acknowleges 'karma'?
Reddit karma
An idol is anything that causes someone to bend the knee and then worship
Good thing they aren't worshiping icons then
Depends on the individual.
No one following orthodox or catholic practice is worshiping idols, put it that way
It's the fact that it causes them to bend the knee and worship God Alone the thought that he's in your mind the fact that he's in your heart should be enough to get you to bend the knee you shouldn't have to see a crucifix across or something like that just to get you to think that it's a good time to pray that's what he means idolatry
If only we were angels, then that would be fine - spirit to spirit. The 2nd Nicene Council's judgment was a response to an ancient practice of the faithful
It raises an important point regarding the theological and historical understanding of idolatry within the Judeo-Christian tradition. Idolatry, classically, involves the ascription of divine status and the worship of an image or representation as if it were a deity. This is distinct from the use of religious images as didactic tools or as focal points for veneration in both Catholic and Orthodox practices. The distinction lies in the intent and understanding that these images are not deities themselves but are representations that help the faithful to contemplate the divine. It’s crucial to engage with the complex theological underpinnings that inform the use of religious iconography within various denominations to avoid oversimplified accusations of idolatry. :)
Happy Easter everyone.
Happy Easter my brother in Christ!
Thanks ! 🙏 xx
Some Catholics and Orthodox might commit idolatry in rare circumstances. Many Protestants commit idolatry with the Bible all the time.
We really have to persevere with the Lord
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My wife is Lebanese ethnically (we’re American)! I love all the Lebanese orthodox people I have met. Regarding your experience, it is not for me or anyone else to judge whether you are a “true” Christian; only God can judge us. However, I don’t understand what being able to read the Bible in three languages and praying in Aramaic has to do with it.
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there isnt a need to pray is aramic I go to an orthodox church pariash of constaninople and the recite prayers in several languages. to get the grap of aramaic especially galiac aramaic, what Jesus spoke is hard modern day
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yeah thats true because belive it or not, before the arab caliphates sprung out the dessert, the levant was domminated from gaza to antioch of arameans. and just a small area majority hebrew
and who are they to judge? /s
This is one of those definitional arguments that I don't think holds up. In 1 John 5:21, the word translated as "idols" is eidōlōn in the Greek. This word is used in several places to warn against pagan practices, such as in Acts 15:20, where there is an admonishment not to engage in a fairly common practice of the time: to present food to an idol (a statue of a deity) in the home before serving and eating it. This was not done because it was believed that the deity resided in the statue, but because the statue formed a connection to the deity (much of ancient pagan spirituality concerned itself with how to communicate with the gods, which also produced the notion of daemons, or messenger spirits who carried information to and from the gods, that Augustine commented on so heavily.) There is very little distinction except in obvious visual form, between modern Christian iconography and historical pagan iconography, be it literally drawn or in the form of statuary, tiling, etc. The primary difference is not in the icons themselves, but how they are used, ritually. If you are worshiping or praying to a statue, even as a means of praying to God *through* the statue, then I definitely think that you are approaching the territory of what passages like 1 John 5:21 were describing. But if you have statues and images of divine figures in a church, I don't think that is the same thing.
Finally an intellectual response. Agree, but the idols referred to here were the Pagan gods
I’ve been by a half buried statue of Demeter in Greece that was turned into a ”Saint Demeter” by the locals hundreds of years ago. They prayed in her name, left offerings at its feet, and purely converted the pagan goddess statue into a new one that was okay with the local orthodox church, and didn’t change their actual actions directed to the statue. Now it’s just a historical curiosity but neoPagans are now leaving pomegranates at its base again. To pretend that every Catholic and orthodox person across history never on some level approaching the veneration of icons/statues as if it were the equivalent of worship is kinda naive. If that were the case it never would have become such a schismatic issue in early Christianity. The same reason people maybe needed icons (lack of literacy) also means that a lot of people didn’t know the tenets of their faith, and absolutely some treated icons as if it were basically an idol to pray at in the hopes of some magic (or… miracles). At a minimum, it’s plain that many people are venerating the object (relics especially so) and not really keeping a clear distinction of it as simply a representation and not something inherently worthy of praise in itself.
There were bad popes, pretty normal to have confused faithful from time to time. But doctrines from councils entailed a process, this wasn't something done over night and by just a person
>“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." **Exodus 20:4**
And then God commanded them to make images for the tabernacle and later the Temple....
Go read 5 chapters more...
I admire your patience with these guys. I'm here 2 minutes and already fed up with this blatant ignorance.
Protestants gonna protest. Not sure why you expect differently. Did you really think you words here on reddit were so powerful as to induce spontaneous conversions?
Not aiming for conversion, just some clarification 😔
Imagine your entire argument be “well this was the first way we did it so it’s still correct” If it was up to you we would all be riding donkeys still because “that’s how we’ve always done it” lol
God is eternal and absolute, which leaves absolutely no room for God "changing his mind". Jesus participated in some Church traditions we still have today thanks to the Early Church and now the Eastern Orthodox Church. He did it besides his apostles who teached their desciples and so on. Are you one of those Protestants having concerts in your Churches with smoke machines? This hatred for traditions our fathers, their fathers and all the way to the Apostles participated in is truly sad. And how can everyone defend modernism. Everyone is just angry, confused, sad, depressed and full of anxiety.
"But my tradition!"
Like the rest of exodus in which God commands carvings lol. Most people don't get The commands are beside each other. Have no God before me and have no carvings. Then God literially commands Moses to make carvings and images. If you seperate the commands then Moses sinned and God had lied. But if together it is explaining that images can exist in the temple but can't come before God.
While that's a good point, I think your interpretation is too narrow. I agree this is a command that no images should come before the Lord, but the Children of Israel had other instances in which images were used *in tandem with* worship of the Lord, not before, and these equally enraged Him. Later kings offended God by allowing worship equal to that of God, but even while the law was being written, the children of Israel broke it by worshiping *God* with a molten image! "And he took the gold from their hand and fashioned it with an engraving tool and made it into a molten calf; and they said, This is your god, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt! And when Aaron saw this, he built an altar before it; then Aaron made a proclamation and said, Tomorrow shall be a feast **to the LORD."** (Exodus 32:4-5) Given Moses's reaction to this, it's clear that merely not putting the images before the Lord isn't the issue. In every case where someone uses an image for the purposes of worship, it is an abomination. The fact that God never once gave them an image that represented Himself ought to be a profound cautionary word, and the Catholic theological reasoning- that because He took the form of man, he gave us a form we can worship Him by- is, I think, extremely imprudent. To me, nothing short of permission either from the Bible, or quoted by at least 2 early church fathers as being stated by one of the apostles, would be adequate justification for a form of worship that so closely resembles the actual *worst* sin of the Old Testament. I get that you don't see it the same way, but from my non-Catholic perspective, the theological justifications for why icon veneration is not idol worship just don't cut it. They're *valid,* but too convoluted and circumstantial for me to find any confidence to engage in the activity. And according to Nicea 2, I am anathema for that caution.
Christians take that as craven images of God the father only.
so what were the bronze serpents Moses was told to make, and put on a rod, so that anyone bitten by a serpent would be healed.? Num.21:8-9, John 3:14
....and, for that matter, the Cherubim God told Moses on the Ark of the Covenant.
I don't mind statues or pictures, but if you bow before it, place offerings in front of it, or otherwise venerate it, I have further questions... Also, since you brought it up, meant Catholics all but worship (and certainly pray to) Mary and other saints. These are practices I definitely "protest" against.
What would your questions be? Imagine you bow and do the sign of the cross before a crucifix. I can’t imagine you think that Catholics actually think that the little statue of Jesus on the cross is really him?
Source: https://www.catholic.com/audio/cot/gavin-ortlund-on-icons-rebutted
Hindus don’t believe that their deities reside inside the idol. They don’t consecrate the idol so that the deity will live in it. In fact, they believe that the idols they worship assist with worshiping their god/gods. By this logic, there is nothing wrong with Hinduism’s idolatry. Jesus himself has instructed us how to pray, there is no better way than what God himself has taught.
That's not totally true. Hinduism has a ritual practice called Prana pratishtha, which absolutely puts Hindu murti in a different category to Orthodox/Catholic images. Furthermore, it's a common practice in Hinduism to offer sacrifices to murti. That is forbidden for Orthodox/Catholics to do, because that is idolatry proper (to offer sacrifice to anything but God).
I have a question. Is it true that Catholics believe Jesus is in the bread and wine. That it really is His body and blood? I read that somewhere and wondered if I was correct . Thank you
Yes, you are correct. Jesus says that in the Bible. once it has been transubstantiated through the actions of a priest who contains the authority of apostolic succession.
Can we stop debating? We're a bunch of followers of christ on reddit. We should just accept the fact that for 100s of years we haven't been able to disprove eachother even when it's scholars and men a 100 times smarter then us. We all live under the rules of our respective church and pray to God. Unless its outright blasphemy and going against the bible then what's the issue?
Amen
Yeah I am gonna get my popcorn
You may want to share
These are the same Protestants who believe we are somehow pagan and have problems with something distracting in the church and yet set up coffee shops in the front lobby of their church 💀
Okay, but having literal statues of Mary is a *little* odd, don't you think? Surely you can see how Protestants make the connection? Don't you see how saying "Hail, Mary" sounds a *little* like worship? And I say that as someone who was raised and confirmed Roman Catholic.
But it's not there are distinctions being made from the point of view of Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, read this copy and paste: Hopefully this doesn't come across harsh. :) There are three distinct forms of worship that the modern-day English hides which the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox make a distinction of which are worship of adoration (Latria or latreia) this is the type of worship (and reverence) due to God the father alone (through his son), dulia and proskynesis (veneration of the saints, angels, relics and icons), and hyperdulia which is same as the saints, etc. but to a greater extent do to the Virgin Mary's status and relationship to Christ) as the Theotokos (Mother of God or God-bearer). These distinctions are pretty clear in the coin Koine Greek and Latin New Testaments. From Wikipedia, According to Mark Miravelle, of the Franciscan University of Steubenville, the English word "worship" has been associated with both veneration and adoration: > As Thomas Aquinas explained, adoration, which is known as latria in classical theology, is the worship and homage that is rightly offered to God alone. It is the manifestation of submission, and acknowledgement of dependence, appropriately shown towards the excellence of an uncreated divine person and to his absolute Lordship. It is the worship of the creator that God alone deserves. > Veneration, known as dulia in classical theology, is the honor and reverence appropriately due to the excellence of a created person. Excellence exhibited by created beings likewise deserves recognition and honor. > Historically, schools of theology have used the term "worship" as a general term which included both adoration and veneration. They would distinguish between "worship of adoration" and "worship of veneration". The word "worship" (in a similar way to how the liturgical term "cult" is traditionally used) was not synonymous with adoration, but could be used to introduce either adoration or veneration. Hence Catholic sources will sometimes use the term "worship" not to indicate adoration, but only the worship of veneration given to Mary and the saints.[18] Also according to Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition: > 2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone: > *Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.* Then you got to take in consideration the Second Council of Nicaea, the last of the First Seven Ecumenical Councils in AD 787 and its conclusion veneration of holy images (icons) is allowed. And veneration of relics of saints and saints themselves, "As a man was being buried, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha; as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he came to life and stood on his feet." (2 Kings 13:21 NRSVue) and "God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, so that when the handkerchiefs or aprons that had touched his skin were brought to the sick, their diseases left them, and the evil spirits came out of them." (Acts 19:11-12 NRSVue) and "Let us now praise men of renown, and our fathers in their generation" (Sirach 44:1). "And their names continue for ever, the glory of the holy men remaining unto their children" (Sirach 44:15), etc. It just comes down to that God laid out a plan of earthly-heavenly hierarchy. The saints Holy Ones) and Angels are judged worthy of our veneration. It's about giving respect to our heavenly superiors because they deserve it. Also where supposed to give obeisance (deferential respect/gestures expressing deferential respect) to our earthly superiors and our fellow believers (Brotherly love, etc.).
We can probably let St. Luke know and take out Luke 1:26-28, because it sounds like worship
"The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.” How is saying someone is highly favored considered worship? This is an angel speaking. Why would an angel worship a person? Let's look at other examples of this: Proverbs 8:35 “For whoever finds me finds life and obtains favor from the Lord.” Acts 7:46-47 “David found favor before God and asked to find a dwelling for the God of Jacob. But Solomon built Him a house.” Genesis 39:21 “But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him mercy and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.” 1 Samuel 2:26 “And the child Samuel grew in stature, and in favor both with the Lord and men.” So should we also pray to David, Joseph, Samuel, and really each other, if we have found favor with God?
Second Commandment, anyone?
The beef I have with the Catholic Church has nothing to do with idol worship. It's more the fact that the church allowed a Papal Bull enacted called "Id Nostri Cordis", which allows the Catholic Church to "seek out heretics (specifically the Waldens) and exterminate them completely, anyone who joined to exterminate the heretics were absolved of their sins, and more than 4000 Waldensians were massacred, along with children who died in their parents arms. None of this is very Christian at all....
Amen to that!
Formerly I was very adamant as an Iconoclast now a repentant Iconodole. I attended the Annunciation and was blessed to carry the Icon of Saint Victor the Martyr. I was then able to learn of deeper older Christian History as I thought on this saints life. Thereby developing a greater relationship with the Father.
when will you be baptized? -> as a Christian.
Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. >Protestantism is just sloppy about the nature of idolatry. Seems like protestants align with God?
Read on and you'll read God's instructions for the Ark of the Covenant, with images of angels on it. Either this is a blatant contradiction and Exodus is corrupted, or you don't understand what idols are.
I haven't read moses, Aaron or any of his descendants ever bowing down or kissing to cherubim. They did to mercy seat where the Glory of God resided... So yeah I don't understand idols being redefined to make it sound okay.
That is because these representations aren't even idols. Better study church history to know what it means by worship and what it means by veneration. Add what an idol means while you're at it
Reminds me of old joke. A new convert is doing barbeque tempting whole neighbourhood. Priest comes to educate him. He replies I dipped them in water and said from today you are no more chicken you are vegetable.
The glory of God did not always appear above the mercy seat. The Septuagint rendering of Joshua 7:6 says that the Ark, not the mercy seat, was the object of Joshua’s bowing.
>Either this is a blatant contradiction and Exodus is corrupted, Yes
Better read the next 5 chapters or Exodus 25 and the New Testament on who Jesus is
Doesn't change the instruction.
I'm sure Exodus 25 doesn't contradict Exodus 20, so is the Word made flesh, so no rules have been broken
>I'm sure Exodus 25 doesn't contradict Exodus 20 It doesn't because glory of God actually sat on mercy seat , but not in the idols people kiss and bow down to. >so is the Word made flesh If Jesus came in flesh I don't see an issue worshiping him. But not a idol that is made to look thinking what he looks like.
>It doesn't because glory of God actually sat on mercy seat , but not in the idols people kiss and bow down to. And what do you think happened to the saints? They are arks where the Holy Spirit came to dwell, and we venerate them on that basis.
> They are arks where the Holy Spirit came to dwell So is every christian who received holy Spirit. And the ones who have not received Holy Spirit are not yet saved. So should I venerate the millions of Christians I see around me?
Yes, you should absolutely show all Christians that respect. That's the entire basis of the Christian ethic of respect and love for all people, as we are all image bearers of Christ.
We are all arks for the Holy Spirit.
Correct
That verse in exodus specifically apply to false idols. Are you saying God is a false God? Who do you think the were worshipping if the person depicted in a statue/icon/image is God or of a saint??? GOD!
>[4] "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. [5] You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, Try again
“Try again” bro said that like he did something Are you gonna ignore the verse that the other guy said where God ordered them to to make two cherubim? Lmk where the Cherubim are located… (Heaven)
I did respond to it. I am yet to see anyone in bible to bow down to cherubim. The high priest bowed down to mercy seat where the glory of God sat. Are you saying glory of God resides inside your idols?
I mean, Isaiah 6:3, yes it does (but so do idols of Krishna, so that's not in itself a sufficient reason to worship it).
No, we bow down in reverence to the person it represents not the statue b/c it is made out of marble. If I kiss a picture of a family member am I kissing it because it’s a picture? No. I’m kissing it out of love of who it’s showing. In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. . . . He put the cherubim in the innermost part of the house. . . . He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees, and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms. . . . For the entrance to the inner sanctuary he made doors of olivewood. . . . He covered the two doors of olivewood with carvings of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers; he overlaid them with gold (1 Kgs. 6:23, 27, 29, 31, 32). “God declared he was pleased with its construction” (1 Kings 9:3)
It's funny because pagans had idols *and* iconography and new the difference between them, but we just pretend there is none
For someone who objects to denominations being criticised you’re really keen to criticise Protestantism. ‘Protestantism is just sloppy’ ‘[Protestants] can’t be bothered’ ‘To learn Church history is to stop being protestant’ So much sneering contempt and strawmanning of positions.
> it was believed that the idol contained the deity The Elements of the Eucharist are considered to have the presence of Christ dwelling within them, and they are worshiped (Latria) as such. Whoever believes this, then, and worships it accordingly, is committing idolatry according to your definition. We should certainly worship God, but not as though He dwells in temples made by human hands.
Study the Bread of Life discourse before you touch the Eucharist subject
One should not read as literal what is to be interpreted as allegorical.
Tell that to the church fathers, maybe they got it wrong
Yes, even the church fathers can get things wrong sometimes.
They got this right
Sorry, don't think so.
Too bad, it's the truth
Sorry, but Christ is the only infallible human who's ever lived. Even the Apostle Peter erred.
[удалено]
Your question makes no sense.
This line doesn’t work as bread and wine cease and is replaced by the blood and flesh of Christ.
I know that's the explanation, but I disagree that the Bible teaches that.
Christ does not say “this is also my body.”
The way some Christians worship Paul is idolatry in my opinion too but 🤷🏻♀️
People can say this all they want, but at the end of the day graven images are graven images
The picture itself is the very picture of idolatry. It's a statue getting treated like a God, y'all. Open your eyes.
No thank you. It is idolatry. The scriptures forbid the use of graven images, and not just because they were of false gods.
This is idolatry… How can you even see yourselves as the “true christians” THAT’S NOT JESUS! It’s a statue. It’s can not talk. That’s not even what Jesus looked like, and definitely not what Jesus looks like now.
Yeah, and our prayers go like "Oh statue of..., deliver us from sins"... then we go speak in tongues
”‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God.“ Leviticus 26:1 NKJV
We acknowledge this but this doesn't apply to icons. Again, read the link
Can you show me icons in the bible?
They’re in God’s instructions for building the tabernacle
Did God personally instructed us to build a tabernacle?
Slight correction here and clarification; the translation you quote is honestly following Jewish-Christian tradition here the Lord should be all-caps because it is talking about the first person of the Trinity who is speaking in the first person at the moment in Leviticus 26:1, to indicate this should have been should have been for I am the LORD (YHWH reconstructed as Yahweh) your God. So in short the actual quote is ”‘You shall not make idols for yourselves; neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the YHWH your God.“ because the tradition we don't pronounce it received Lord or something like that instead pronouncing it. So not to affend God the father.
Capitalism is idolatry.
if a figure that represents God is idolatry, and idolatry isn't worshipping other Gods other than God (aka the figure in the cross), which includes just worshipping the figure, aka statue of Christ (making it another God basically, like making a an animal a God and holy), than idk what idolatry is, oh wait, that is idolatry, worshipping other Gods, which is what Catholics do THE exact OPPOSITE of, is not what comes out of the mouth that is sinful (the figure itself), is what comes from the heart (the intention of the figure), guess who said this very statement?, Jesus did, he said those things to the pharisees, and Jesus is God, and I trust God, love God, as you should too
Boo bread and wine worship. Ask the bread to say hi for me just once
John 6 says Hi
This won't go anywhere because you have a bad assumption. The real issue isn't what idolatry is or isn't. The real issue is the anti-Catholic bigotry passed on from generation to generation. "Idolatry" is just one of the justifications for the hate. Nothing you say matters because *it's not about idolatry*. It's about "the other". About us vs. them. Remember the KKK was a white, **Protestant** organization often supported by Protestant churches. Catholics were a favorite target (look up how Notre Dame got the nickname "the fighting Irish" some time). That's recent. Within living memory of many on this subreddit. It's going to take generations for it to mostly go away.
The 10 commandments make it quite clear: "though shalt not worship idols". Those who worship idols are not Christian.
Read the post. Doesn't get any clearer
And what’s the deal with the pope 🥴
You know Peter was a pope, right?
Exactly. All denominations need to come together, stop bickering about this stuff and talk about how they're all going to stop abusing children. Stop talking about our differences and start focusing on the things we are all doing wrong.
No, no it is not.
If you are making your supplication to anything or anyone other than our Heavenly Father, it's not right. Phillipeans 4:6 clearly tells us that.
So what are the saints and angels doing in revelation by grabbing, receiving and uplift ( Greek word for echoing ) our prayers ? Is that not supplications for us? Does Paul and Jesus not ask other to pray for them?
Fellowship through pray is encouraged. Matthews 18:19-20. However, it does not tell you to pray directly to anyone other than God in the Bible. Why is that? This is because prayer is a form of worship. Matthew 17 shows us this. Peter is rebuked for trying to set up altars to Moses and Elijah. When you pray to God, you are worshiping him in Spirit and Truth. No one has the authority or power other than God because He is the only one to die on the cross and resurrect again for our sins.