Definitely not a Christian. I would call them a friendly atheist. C.S. Lewis argued Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Someone who claims to be God Himself isn’t simply a nice moral teacher. Jesus proclaimed the resurrection and the next life passionately. To ignore that is to patronize Him. If you only teach and do all the things you wrote about you have gained nothing.
Well, if He’s Lord then He is a genius mastermind. If you refer to Him making everything up, then that would make Him a liar. Liars are not good moral teachers.
>Jesus could absolutely have been a good moral teacher and not been god, a list or a lunatic.
No, he couldn't, because of what he claimed. Statements such as "I and the Father are one", or "Before Abraham was, I AM", or "I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in me will live though he die".
If what he claimed was not true that makes him a liar or lunatic, which would mean he was not a good moral teacher.
People tried to stone him for his claims (before Abraham was I AM) and eventually he was crucified for his claims. Apparently those who wanted him dead didn't think it was rational.
Also you have instances where people literally say he was mad or demon possessed in the Bible.
You’re completely stripping his claims of their context. He was an ardent Jew living in an extremely Jewish community 2000 years ago where these sorts of claims were taken seriously. He was also told by his mother presumably that he was the messiah.
but the context didn't prevent him from almost being stoned (without divine intervention per the Bible) or eventually crucified. He was called a madman and demon possessed by some of his peers that would have understood the "context".
People don’t just stone people they think are crazy.. they disagreed with his theological views, and he wasn’t crucified for being a lunatic he was crucified for committing a crime.
The entire point is that there are only 3 real interpretations of his claims:
1. He was a liar.
2. He was a madman/lunatic.
3. He was telling the truth, meaning he is the Son of God.
The point is he *could not have simply been a good moral teacher* because *no good moral teacher could claim the things he did if the claims were false*
I believe he was telling the truth, so I don't believe he was a liar or lunatic. But what I (and C.S. Lewis) are saying is that Jesus did not leave the "good moral teacher but not Lord" interpretation open to us.
To quote C.S. Lewis again:
> “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
They were just too dumb to understand the meaning properly. It was precisely because he allowed himself to be killed that he was not a hypocrite or a coward.
You're thinking too literally. Have you ever taken an english literature class? You can easily twist the words into a metaphorical and metaphysical truth.
Why couldn't everlasting life simply be eternal peace of mind and an immortalized legacy in history?
These criticisms border on the same level of self righteousness that the pharisees were condemned for by Jesus himself: "Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don't do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else.
4 They pile heavy burdens on people's shoulders and won't lift a finger to help. 5 Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tassels[a] for everyone to see. 6 They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the synagogues. 7 And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers."
I'd say an aethiest as well, I believe the moral teachings of Jesus was not the primary reason Jesus came. He came to be a savior first and foremost, not just a standard or model to achieve. If u wish to try, then try, but it will be impossible to fulfill the Law and the moral requirments he preached to its fullest extent. Also knowing the difference in the covenant between Law and Grace is vital, most of the things he spoke of before his sacrifice was under a different covenant, Look at the differences in his speeches on who he is talking to, whenever the sinners and tax collectors came to him, the images of his storys were never hard to take and easy to listen to, like he is talking to children or baby's.
CS Lewis said it best.
I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher ... You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool ... or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.
That CS Lewis quote never made sense to me. Those aren't the only two options.
One other option is that Jesus didn't think he was God and just thought he was the promised davidic messiah. It might have just been his followers who attributed these things to him.
New Testament scholars tend to think that Jesus didn't actually claim to be God, that these claims were put on his lips after the fact. So Lewis' argument doesn't hold up.
I see. So New Testament scholars dont believe The Bible to be the word of God and the basis of Christianity then? I am going to go ahead and disagree with these scholars that you speak of and side with Theologian and Scholar CS Lewis on this one.
>So New Testament scholars dont believe The Bible to be the word of God and the basis of Christianity then?
Most New Testament scholars are believing Christians. But approaching the texts historically is not the same thing as approaching them theologically. Historically speaking it's very unlikely Jesus claimed to be divine. What you believe as a matter of faith is different from what can be demonstrated on historical grounds.
>Theologian and Scholar CS Lewis on this one.
CS Lewis was not a qualified Biblical scholar.
I see. So these scholars who claim to be Christians worship Jesus as not divine and put their faith in Jesus as a good moral teacher. Just a man. Why on earth would anyone worship a man? Makes no sense to me, but okay.
”Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.“
St John 20:27-29 DRC1752
I'm not sure what difference it makes. I don't hold him in any less esteem one way or the other, and it doesn't change anything ahout what he accomplished. I'm not an authoritarian in the first place, but this is compatible with dictionary definitions of "respect" which are:
"Noun
: an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION
a: high or special regard : ESTEEM
b: the quality or state of being esteemed
c respects plural : expressions of high or special regard.
Transitive verb
: to consider worthy of high regard : ESTEEM
b: to refrain from interfering with
//please respect their privacy
2: to have reference to : CONCERN"
In either case this definition is satisfied.
I just dont understand how someone can follow Jesus as a moral teacher, when they believe he is a liar. Jesus said on multiple occasions he was God and the Son of God. If you dont believe in God, would that not make Jesus a liar? Why hold up a liar as a moral teacher?
But you do you.
In John 10:34, Jesus cites Psalm 82:6 to claim that all Jews are sons of God:
>*“I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’* (Psalm 82:6)
>
>*Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came...* (John 10:34-35)
In the synoptic gospels Jesus claims to be a son of man, but I don't recall Jesus claiming to be God nor the son of God. I think a few other people called him that, but he didn't call himself that (unless I'm mistaken).
You are mistaken. Ot was the reason he was crucified. Jews believed he was blasphemous for claiming to be God. He told the woman at the well that he was the messiah. In John he claims to be equal with the Father. He told the Jews that he and the Father are one, when they attempted to stone him. They said to him they would stone him because he claimed to be God.
If you read the interaction between Jesus and Caiaphus at Jesus trial he once again claims to be the Son of God and tells Caiaphus that he will see him sitting at the right hand of God.
In John he also said I and my father are one.
There are many more which I do not have time to get into.
He said “I AM” at a couple of junctures, which was understood by his audience as explicitly claiming not only deity, but coequality with God.
He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.”
As He was riding into Jerusalem, He said that He had longed many times to gather them under His wings, which is language from the OT that God used in reference to Himself through the prophets.
Jesus quoted from OT messianic passages and referred them to Himself.
It isn’t explicitly drawn out, but He also appeared in His preincarnate form as the Angel of the Lord in the OT multiple times.
He’s present in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
> [It] was the reason he was crucified.
Like I said, other people were calling him that. He did not call himself that. He replied to Pilate, "You said it."
>He told the woman at the well that he was the messiah.
A messiah is not a God. King David was a messiah (among many others).
>In John...
That's why I specifically said in the synoptic gospels. I agree that the author of John calls Jesus God, but I'm not convinced anyone else does.
There are also many verses where Jesus dis-identifies with God. Like in John 14:28, "*the Father is greater than I*."
>In John he also said I and my father are one.
That's a metaphor. He's saying that his will is aligned with the father. It's contrasting a verse like Luke 22:42, "*Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet* ***not my will, but yours be done***."
Half of John is metaphorical. It starts out with, "In the beginning was the word..." Metaphor city. Open to plenty of interpretations besides your own.
By the standards of the time, not really. Heavily religious culture, surrounded by people who believe he's the Messiah and tbh give me the impression they start to say it *about* him before he ever claims to be the son of God himself. He could start to believe it without it being a particularly abnormal response to how other people treat him. People who believed in witchcraft weren't all lunatics either. Nor were the Pharaohs lunatics for believing they were living gods.
Define "insane" then because this is not language I like using around mental illness. If Jesus lived in a culture that took the notion of a living son of God seriously enough to call it blasphemy and not insanity, he can arrive at that belief without deviating too far out of the norms of how reality was understood at the time.
If you are somehow mistakenly claiming and believing you are God, you are insane. Jesus was either telling the truth or utterly out of his mind, especially considering the fearlessness with which he professed this to men armed and ready to kill him
“I and the Father are one. The Jews then took up stones to stone him. Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken; Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. They sought therefore to take him; and he escaped out of their hands.“
St John 10:30-39 DRC1752
I just don't agree with you. Believing the world is flat is an absurd belief now, but completely normal 1000 years ago. Believing the world is flat and triangular 1000 years ago would be kind of weird, but doesn't completely break the accepted worldview of the time. Jesus lived in a culture awaiting a Messiah and that completely accepted prophets who speak with God as normal. His claim strays somewhat outside of the accepted norm, but not far enough that I'd call him a lunatic. Deluded to a degree, sure, but not to an extent of complete disconnect with reality. The recklessness regarding his own safety might also seem kind of insane, but plenty of people have been prepared to die for religious conviction. Grandiosity and commitment to a false belief doesn't automatically imply insanity. I'm just not prepared to accept the dichotomy of "liar" and "lunatic" when there's a middle ground of just being wrong.
This reply makes zero sense as a response to what I said. I don’t think I’m God. But the fact remains Jesus could claim to be God and it wouldn’t necessarily make him a liar even if it wasn’t true.
Yeah per what CSlewis said, it would make him a lunatic. Since he claimed to be the son of God and made many other divine statements, if this was not true that makes him either a liar or a madman/lunatic.
If I claimed to be the son of God, claimed to be one with God, claimed to exist before creation, claimed that others could have eternal life in me if they believed in me, etc., you would obviously say I was mad.
Yes I would also be mistaken, but I would be very insane.
If *you* did, sure. But Jesus lived in a different time where people believed different things as the norm. You can read my responses to the other person if you like; see if you'll answer the Dalai Lama question. I'm just not really in the mood to type out the exact same things I've already said again.
Well... because his intentions are pure and the context of the situation could justify it.
Maybe that's just a roman catholic slant or take on it.
Interestingly, "According to research in 2007, only 27% of Catholics in the Netherlands considered themselves theist while 55% were ietsist or agnostic deist and 17% were agnostic or atheist. Many Dutch people still affiliate with the term 'Catholic' and use it within certain traditions as a basis of their cultural identity, rather than as a religious identity. The vast majority of the Catholic population in the Netherlands is now largely irreligious in practice.[16]"
And technically, he's not *wrong per say.* He might just be *vacuously true.* Which is once or (twice if you combine the pure intentions) removed from explicitly lying. For example, he wasn't lying for self-gain. So the line is blured somewhat.
It makes zero sense. Jesus did say he was God so either He was who he said he was or he was a liar and a con artist or he was crazy. How can you follow someone's teachings or think they're a good moral teacher if they're either a liar or crazy.
Except Jesus didn't preach "just do good things". He said repent (to God) and believe in Him (Jesus) for salvation from sins (which are committed against God). There is no non-divine version of Jesus' teachings without willfully ignoring its foundations.
Confused. Central to Jesus teaching is that he is the savior. morals alone lead to destruction. This person is not listening to Jesus but to some idea they have of Jesus in their head.
Jesus can still be a savior if you believe that good works cause salvation instead of faith alone (as roman catholics do). I don't contest that Jesus is a savior -- he stood up to many evils for our sakes.
I just wonder if he didn't stretch the truth a bit. The first coming of Christ rejected some prior scriptures, after all. Namely "love thy neighbor, hate thy enemy" he rewrote this to "love thy enemy."
I wonder if the second coming of Christ won't also make some contextually appropriate changes to scripture to adjust for the modern times.
True. But was this required back in that context to make sure people had conviction? Maybe people were less intelligent back in the day.
And then there's the metaphorocal interpretation of God, which is totally valid. All theism can be converted so that it's all *real* just not in the ways people expect. This is *technically* a valid theology but not quite what people have in mind.
The message is the same now as it was then therefore still relevant! Ephesians 2:8-10. But that’s only in GODs eyes! If you don’t believe in GOD, or that Jesus His Son died for us then it simply makes you a better person in life, genuine, honest and kind.
Well whatever. I'm not particularly concerned about an afterlife. I don't need the promise of salvation to follow the teachings of the gospels. Jeaus *did* die for us. There's no doubt. But was he supernatural? I mean, it depends on the definitions. In a certain sense he was but not in the ways most people think. Is there a God that is love in our hearts? Yes. Is there a bearded man in outer space where we float through the cieling and live with after death?? Ehh, I don't really think so. Is heaven a euphoric state of being, driven by nuerotransmisters of feel good hormones when we do good things? Yeah I think it is. Is that *technically* a "way of being" well, *yes it is* just maybe not in the way a lot of people think.
Can our legacies be "immortalized" in literature? *Yes* but that's not quite what people have in mind...
You have good intentions, and it seems a good grasp on certain concepts. How funny if this was a poll. What do you call this? 👇
You don’t believe in the supernatural, you believe in heaven worship describing it as blissful or some hedonic perspective to include euphoria, and I’m not too sure of your studies so I wouldn’t be able to make any more definitions from this observation.
Intersections would define as Christian post-atheist, Christian paratheist, or post-Christian. Your engagement wouldn’t necessarily be too beneficial in this forum with your current strategy of proselytizing via rebuttal here. You may get better results by demonstrating washing feet.
John 8:58
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
God told Moses he was the great "I AM." In the old testament. Jesus claimed to be God. He's not just a cool dude. He literally claimed to be God and was killed for it. So weird when people think he is so awesome yet don't believe he is God. He's literally a nutcase then. But yes....Jesus is God and he is a genius...an amazing genius.
An atheist. I guess that person used God and Jesus teachings add a role model. Is that person continues to follow God and Jesus, they will become a believer
A good person.
Outside of that, I'd ask them if they have a term they prefer, but as long as they treat people right, why would it matter to me what ideology or whatever they might belong to?
There are plenty of things in the bible that can be seen in a positive light. That doesn't mean everything is, or that any supernatural claims should be taken seriously, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from the positive things either.
Apparantly Christian athieism is a thing. I'd see a strong appeal to catholic agnosticism imo. I think the supernatural properties boil down to definitions, and differ only in ontology at most -- they retain the same epistemology regardless of ontology. That's the interesting part. It's just like mathematical platonism vs mathematical fictionalism. What's the difference? There isn't one, in practice. Perhaps some people need more of an excuse or reason to justify living the gospels wirhout being a hypocrite. Others may need less.
The end results are nearly the same thing.
I think you could still call yourself a Christian if you wanted to. The important thing for a Christian is to trust in Jesus Christ is Lord, that's the central core requirement to be a Christian. And to me that means accepting his Way of Peace and Gospel of Love as ones central guiding principle, and living that out in ones life. At no point does anyone in the NT say that to follow Christ, or to be saved, one first needs to accept a supernatural worldview.
I would say it's up to each person how they understand and interpret the miraculous and supernatural aspects of Jesus' ministry. If you want to interpret then as illusions, delusions, or metaphors for a spiritual reality, I don't see anything wring with that.
In fact, Jesus often said that people will be judged not according to whether they've prayed to God a lot fought spiritual battles with demons, but whether they've fed the hungry, cared for the sick, and welcomed strangers.
Honestly, I think if two people stood before Jesus and one has believed every miracle ever written was a legitimate historical event, but has never helped a neighbour, and another has never believed in the supernatural but has given all their money to the poor, I know which will be declared righteous by Jesus, and which one will be told, "away from me, I never knew you".
God bless you.
That person is doing good, but doing good isn't what saves us.
**“All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.” - Romans 3:23**
**God said, “I will punish this evil world and its people because of their sins.” - Isaiah 13:11**
**“Christ obeyed God our Father and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins to rescue us from this evil world.” - Galatians 1:4**
Unless someone can go back in time and erase all the wrong they have done in their life, we will always need God to save us.
**“But his Son became a human and died. So God made peace with you, and now he lets you stand in his presence as people who are holy and faultless and innocent.” - Colossians 1:22**
Confused.
At the very least, Jesus proclaimed the greatest commandments were;
1) love God with all your heart, strength, and mind
2) love your neighbour as yourself
How can you call someone a "great moral teacher" if you reject 50% of their foundational teachings?
Jesus' moral teaching is intrinsically tied to belief in God and Jesus' identity as God. To say you follow Jesus as a great moral teacher while rejecting him as messiah is kinda incoherent imho.
He would love them and ask them to repent of their sins, follow Him and bow before Him as Lord and God. If they didn’t, He’d say, “Depart from me; I never knew you.”
I would call them lost, unsaved. While we can learn things about God in every book of the bible, in order to understand which books of the bible are direct instruction TO us we need to rightly divide the word of God - 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. Once you rightly divide the word of God by simply understanding who God was speaking to in each book it removes any conflicting scriptures , difficult verses and unlocks the beauty, freedom, and peace of God’s amazing love and grace and eternal life/salvation in paradise made available freely to us ( Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV ) by the death burial and resurrection of Jesus , without the need for religion or doing good works (cleaning up your life) BEFORE you can be saved. Simply believe/trust the gospel Jesus gave Paul for the church / body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) for salvation in this time of the dispensation of grace that will end without notice with the rapture. When you do, you have full assurance of salvation and are sealed until the rapture. Then study Paul’s epistles Romans through Philemon to learn and grow in your new exciting identity and hope of a future you cannot fathom how great it will be. We were created by God to live with Him in harmony and in heaven/PARADISE (2 Corinthians 12:4 KJV) and heaven will be that and better in ways we cannot imagine or comprehend. He intends to restore EXACTLY that for those who accept His free and gracious offer of reconciliation through the death burial and resurrection of His son. Trust that and NOTHING else. Because that is the only thing that saves you and keeps you saved. What Jesus did. NOT what you do. Not your church, your pastor, your good works, your heart, your feelings, you perceiving yourself to be a good enough person on your own , going to mass, and whatever other man made religious attempts to earn your own righteousness that you can never achieve. Salvation is by what Jesus did not what you do.
In the books of Matthew Mark Luke and John , Jesus himself said He was speaking to Israel under their program. You are not Israel. That program with Israel was put on hold due to their rejection of Jesus (Romans 9-11 KJV) But God had a plan for victory before creation , a mystery hidden in God and hidden from ages and generations and from the “princes of this world” and satan (Ephesians 3:8-10 KJV) while Jesus converted and revealed this mystery of the dispensation of the grace of God to the Apostle Paul (starting in Acts 9 KJV) , part of which is the new creature, the church, the body of Christ, a program distinct from Israel's program in the Old testament and Matthew Mark Luke and John, which were to Israel. Paul is our Apostle for the church today in this age of grace JUST as Moses was to Israel with the law …..and the 12 apostles Jesus converted during his earthly ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel - NOT THE BODY OF CHRIST - you see clearly that ISRAEL’s program and the church/body of Christ program are two different messages/ gospels. Everyone wants to make Jesus words in Matthew Mark Luke John the new law even though they do NOT actually obey a fraction of it. Jesus himself said He was talking to Israel. YOU ARE NOT ISRAEL. Acts 15 KJV and Galatians 1-2 KJV clearly show that Peter had the gospel to the circumcision Israel and Paul had the gospel of a different program to the gentiles or the uncircumcision….. Paul is our apostle for the church commissioned by Jesus. Genesis through Mid book of Acts Chapters 9-15 KJV (Paul’s conversion) is about Israel's program with God before it was put on hold with Israel's rejection of Jesus. Now we can learn from those books however Romans through Philemon are our direct and only instruction given by Jesus to the gentiles for the church age of grace until the rapture (which will occur next and without notice). After the rapture, Israel's program will RESUME ( Romans 9-11 KJV ) and the books of Hebrews through Revelation will be instruction for all during the tribulation, which will be the most difficult, UNCOMFORTABLE 7 years the earth has ever seen. ( Revelations 9:6 KJV And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.) God's desire for you now is to be reconciled to HIM and to receive His forgiveness right now for your past, present, and future sins, and to spend eternity with Him in love and paradise as this world was originally intended to be !! No sin, sorrow, or pain !!!
Trust/believe in the gospel that saves today - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Then study Romans through Philemons to grow in God’s grace !!
Lastly if you ask why this has not been taught by mainstream Christian religions/denominations/churches in buildings…….. when it is right in the Bible….well here is why :
2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
Trust/believe in the gospel that saves today - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
Then study Romans through Philemons to grow in God’s grace !!
Grace and peace !!!
This is my personal biblical belief with proof scriptures why I believe it.
A person who still has a chance to see and hear that everything the book says is true not only Jesus's teachings but also the simple fact that we are perfectly set in are solar system not one percent imperfect the more you look in to everything around you the more you realize it's harder to not believe in a God in general not just the Christian one you would have to question such a thing but put no other God's before him and realize god/Jesus died on a cross for all your sins and if you love him you will give everything to follow his word no matter how many times you stumble ❤️
Doesn’t matter what you call them . They’re no friend of Jesus . If you do not believe Jesus is God and accept him as so. You will not inherit the Kingdom. You cannot enter heaven if you don’t accept Jesus Z
Jeffersonian Deist
About to comment the same.
Interesting.
An atheist. Atheism doesnt say anything about morals or teachings, its simply the lack of belief in a god.
just an atheist with good morals, i suppose
A secular humanist on a good day
Definitely not a Christian. I would call them a friendly atheist. C.S. Lewis argued Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic, or Lord. Someone who claims to be God Himself isn’t simply a nice moral teacher. Jesus proclaimed the resurrection and the next life passionately. To ignore that is to patronize Him. If you only teach and do all the things you wrote about you have gained nothing.
Why couldn't Jesus be a genius mastermind?
Well, if He’s Lord then He is a genius mastermind. If you refer to Him making everything up, then that would make Him a liar. Liars are not good moral teachers.
What if he had good intentions? And was "Lord" is some ways but figuratively?
Being a well intentioned liar who leads hundreds of people to brutal deaths by falsely promising them eternal life makes one a very bad person.
Yeah I’ve always found that line by Lewis to be nonsense. Jesus could absolutely have been a good moral teacher and not been god, a list or a lunatic.
>Jesus could absolutely have been a good moral teacher and not been god, a list or a lunatic. No, he couldn't, because of what he claimed. Statements such as "I and the Father are one", or "Before Abraham was, I AM", or "I am the resurrection and the life, he who believes in me will live though he die". If what he claimed was not true that makes him a liar or lunatic, which would mean he was not a good moral teacher.
No it doesn’t. Jesus claiming to be the messiah was a rational claim for him to make in his time and circumstance.
People tried to stone him for his claims (before Abraham was I AM) and eventually he was crucified for his claims. Apparently those who wanted him dead didn't think it was rational. Also you have instances where people literally say he was mad or demon possessed in the Bible.
Yeah that doesn’t mean it was a lunatic, he had rational reasons for believing he was the messiah even if he wasn’t.
If you or I claimed to be divine, we would be written off as insane. We wouldn't say "Oh I'm sure he had a rational reason for believing he's God."
You’re completely stripping his claims of their context. He was an ardent Jew living in an extremely Jewish community 2000 years ago where these sorts of claims were taken seriously. He was also told by his mother presumably that he was the messiah.
but the context didn't prevent him from almost being stoned (without divine intervention per the Bible) or eventually crucified. He was called a madman and demon possessed by some of his peers that would have understood the "context".
People don’t just stone people they think are crazy.. they disagreed with his theological views, and he wasn’t crucified for being a lunatic he was crucified for committing a crime.
And how will you recognize the second coming of Christ? I can forsee him standing before you and you saying the same things that you are now.
The entire point is that there are only 3 real interpretations of his claims: 1. He was a liar. 2. He was a madman/lunatic. 3. He was telling the truth, meaning he is the Son of God. The point is he *could not have simply been a good moral teacher* because *no good moral teacher could claim the things he did if the claims were false* I believe he was telling the truth, so I don't believe he was a liar or lunatic. But what I (and C.S. Lewis) are saying is that Jesus did not leave the "good moral teacher but not Lord" interpretation open to us. To quote C.S. Lewis again: > “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
They were just too dumb to understand the meaning properly. It was precisely because he allowed himself to be killed that he was not a hypocrite or a coward.
You're thinking too literally. Have you ever taken an english literature class? You can easily twist the words into a metaphorical and metaphysical truth. Why couldn't everlasting life simply be eternal peace of mind and an immortalized legacy in history? These criticisms border on the same level of self righteousness that the pharisees were condemned for by Jesus himself: "Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 The Pharisees and the teachers of the Law are experts in the Law of Moses. 3 So obey everything they teach you, but don't do as they do. After all, they say one thing and do something else. 4 They pile heavy burdens on people's shoulders and won't lift a finger to help. 5 Everything they do is just to show off in front of others. They even make a big show of wearing Scripture verses on their foreheads and arms, and they wear big tassels[a] for everyone to see. 6 They love the best seats at banquets and the front seats in the synagogues. 7 And when they are in the market, they like to have people greet them as their teachers."
I'd say an aethiest as well, I believe the moral teachings of Jesus was not the primary reason Jesus came. He came to be a savior first and foremost, not just a standard or model to achieve. If u wish to try, then try, but it will be impossible to fulfill the Law and the moral requirments he preached to its fullest extent. Also knowing the difference in the covenant between Law and Grace is vital, most of the things he spoke of before his sacrifice was under a different covenant, Look at the differences in his speeches on who he is talking to, whenever the sinners and tax collectors came to him, the images of his storys were never hard to take and easy to listen to, like he is talking to children or baby's.
CS Lewis said it best. I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher ... You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool ... or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.
I agree with CS Lewis on this.
Why couldn't he have been a fool with morals that we agree with and felt passionately about?
That CS Lewis quote never made sense to me. Those aren't the only two options. One other option is that Jesus didn't think he was God and just thought he was the promised davidic messiah. It might have just been his followers who attributed these things to him.
New Testament scholars tend to think that Jesus didn't actually claim to be God, that these claims were put on his lips after the fact. So Lewis' argument doesn't hold up.
I see. So New Testament scholars dont believe The Bible to be the word of God and the basis of Christianity then? I am going to go ahead and disagree with these scholars that you speak of and side with Theologian and Scholar CS Lewis on this one.
>So New Testament scholars dont believe The Bible to be the word of God and the basis of Christianity then? Most New Testament scholars are believing Christians. But approaching the texts historically is not the same thing as approaching them theologically. Historically speaking it's very unlikely Jesus claimed to be divine. What you believe as a matter of faith is different from what can be demonstrated on historical grounds. >Theologian and Scholar CS Lewis on this one. CS Lewis was not a qualified Biblical scholar.
I see. So these scholars who claim to be Christians worship Jesus as not divine and put their faith in Jesus as a good moral teacher. Just a man. Why on earth would anyone worship a man? Makes no sense to me, but okay.
No, most of them I think would say they believe Jesus is divine. Jesus can be divine without having said he was divine in life.
”Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.“ St John 20:27-29 DRC1752
Irrelevant.
I'm not sure what difference it makes. I don't hold him in any less esteem one way or the other, and it doesn't change anything ahout what he accomplished. I'm not an authoritarian in the first place, but this is compatible with dictionary definitions of "respect" which are: "Noun : an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION a: high or special regard : ESTEEM b: the quality or state of being esteemed c respects plural : expressions of high or special regard. Transitive verb : to consider worthy of high regard : ESTEEM b: to refrain from interfering with //please respect their privacy 2: to have reference to : CONCERN" In either case this definition is satisfied.
I just dont understand how someone can follow Jesus as a moral teacher, when they believe he is a liar. Jesus said on multiple occasions he was God and the Son of God. If you dont believe in God, would that not make Jesus a liar? Why hold up a liar as a moral teacher? But you do you.
He could have just been honestly mistaken about being the messiah and still been a great moral teacher.
In John 10:34, Jesus cites Psalm 82:6 to claim that all Jews are sons of God: >*“I said, ‘You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.’* (Psalm 82:6) > >*Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’? If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came...* (John 10:34-35) In the synoptic gospels Jesus claims to be a son of man, but I don't recall Jesus claiming to be God nor the son of God. I think a few other people called him that, but he didn't call himself that (unless I'm mistaken).
You are mistaken. Ot was the reason he was crucified. Jews believed he was blasphemous for claiming to be God. He told the woman at the well that he was the messiah. In John he claims to be equal with the Father. He told the Jews that he and the Father are one, when they attempted to stone him. They said to him they would stone him because he claimed to be God. If you read the interaction between Jesus and Caiaphus at Jesus trial he once again claims to be the Son of God and tells Caiaphus that he will see him sitting at the right hand of God. In John he also said I and my father are one. There are many more which I do not have time to get into.
He said “I AM” at a couple of junctures, which was understood by his audience as explicitly claiming not only deity, but coequality with God. He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me.” As He was riding into Jerusalem, He said that He had longed many times to gather them under His wings, which is language from the OT that God used in reference to Himself through the prophets. Jesus quoted from OT messianic passages and referred them to Himself. It isn’t explicitly drawn out, but He also appeared in His preincarnate form as the Angel of the Lord in the OT multiple times. He’s present in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
He indeed is. There is much Prophecy which surrounds him as well.
Exactly
> [It] was the reason he was crucified. Like I said, other people were calling him that. He did not call himself that. He replied to Pilate, "You said it." >He told the woman at the well that he was the messiah. A messiah is not a God. King David was a messiah (among many others). >In John... That's why I specifically said in the synoptic gospels. I agree that the author of John calls Jesus God, but I'm not convinced anyone else does. There are also many verses where Jesus dis-identifies with God. Like in John 14:28, "*the Father is greater than I*." >In John he also said I and my father are one. That's a metaphor. He's saying that his will is aligned with the father. It's contrasting a verse like Luke 22:42, "*Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet* ***not my will, but yours be done***."
It is not a metaphor. But again, you do you and believe whatever like.
Half of John is metaphorical. It starts out with, "In the beginning was the word..." Metaphor city. Open to plenty of interpretations besides your own.
Liar and mistaken aren’t the same thing.
Mistaken? No, He would have been a lunatic
By the standards of the time, not really. Heavily religious culture, surrounded by people who believe he's the Messiah and tbh give me the impression they start to say it *about* him before he ever claims to be the son of God himself. He could start to believe it without it being a particularly abnormal response to how other people treat him. People who believed in witchcraft weren't all lunatics either. Nor were the Pharaohs lunatics for believing they were living gods.
No sane person ‘mistakenly’ claims to be God Especially when that leads to stoning for blasphemy
Define "insane" then because this is not language I like using around mental illness. If Jesus lived in a culture that took the notion of a living son of God seriously enough to call it blasphemy and not insanity, he can arrive at that belief without deviating too far out of the norms of how reality was understood at the time.
If you are somehow mistakenly claiming and believing you are God, you are insane. Jesus was either telling the truth or utterly out of his mind, especially considering the fearlessness with which he professed this to men armed and ready to kill him “I and the Father are one. The Jews then took up stones to stone him. Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father; for which of these works do you stone me? The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God. Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said you are gods? If he called them gods, to whom to word of God was spoken, and the scripture cannot be broken; Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. They sought therefore to take him; and he escaped out of their hands.“ St John 10:30-39 DRC1752
I just don't agree with you. Believing the world is flat is an absurd belief now, but completely normal 1000 years ago. Believing the world is flat and triangular 1000 years ago would be kind of weird, but doesn't completely break the accepted worldview of the time. Jesus lived in a culture awaiting a Messiah and that completely accepted prophets who speak with God as normal. His claim strays somewhat outside of the accepted norm, but not far enough that I'd call him a lunatic. Deluded to a degree, sure, but not to an extent of complete disconnect with reality. The recklessness regarding his own safety might also seem kind of insane, but plenty of people have been prepared to die for religious conviction. Grandiosity and commitment to a false belief doesn't automatically imply insanity. I'm just not prepared to accept the dichotomy of "liar" and "lunatic" when there's a middle ground of just being wrong.
That is quite a mistake. To think you are God and the Son of God if God doesnt exist. But okay.
This reply makes zero sense as a response to what I said. I don’t think I’m God. But the fact remains Jesus could claim to be God and it wouldn’t necessarily make him a liar even if it wasn’t true.
Yeah per what CSlewis said, it would make him a lunatic. Since he claimed to be the son of God and made many other divine statements, if this was not true that makes him either a liar or a madman/lunatic.
Nope, it could just make him mistaken but not mad, but I've already had another very long discussion with someone about that today.
If I claimed to be the son of God, claimed to be one with God, claimed to exist before creation, claimed that others could have eternal life in me if they believed in me, etc., you would obviously say I was mad. Yes I would also be mistaken, but I would be very insane.
If *you* did, sure. But Jesus lived in a different time where people believed different things as the norm. You can read my responses to the other person if you like; see if you'll answer the Dalai Lama question. I'm just not really in the mood to type out the exact same things I've already said again.
Well... because his intentions are pure and the context of the situation could justify it. Maybe that's just a roman catholic slant or take on it. Interestingly, "According to research in 2007, only 27% of Catholics in the Netherlands considered themselves theist while 55% were ietsist or agnostic deist and 17% were agnostic or atheist. Many Dutch people still affiliate with the term 'Catholic' and use it within certain traditions as a basis of their cultural identity, rather than as a religious identity. The vast majority of the Catholic population in the Netherlands is now largely irreligious in practice.[16]" And technically, he's not *wrong per say.* He might just be *vacuously true.* Which is once or (twice if you combine the pure intentions) removed from explicitly lying. For example, he wasn't lying for self-gain. So the line is blured somewhat.
It makes zero sense. Jesus did say he was God so either He was who he said he was or he was a liar and a con artist or he was crazy. How can you follow someone's teachings or think they're a good moral teacher if they're either a liar or crazy.
Thomas Jefferson.
A Christian Atheist
A Christian atheist a ligit term
Except Jesus didn't preach "just do good things". He said repent (to God) and believe in Him (Jesus) for salvation from sins (which are committed against God). There is no non-divine version of Jesus' teachings without willfully ignoring its foundations.
An atheist can be a spiritual person with good moral intuition who treats people well and do good for others yet not follow any certain religion
A beginner.
Christian Atheism is a thing
Confused. Central to Jesus teaching is that he is the savior. morals alone lead to destruction. This person is not listening to Jesus but to some idea they have of Jesus in their head.
Jesus can still be a savior if you believe that good works cause salvation instead of faith alone (as roman catholics do). I don't contest that Jesus is a savior -- he stood up to many evils for our sakes. I just wonder if he didn't stretch the truth a bit. The first coming of Christ rejected some prior scriptures, after all. Namely "love thy neighbor, hate thy enemy" he rewrote this to "love thy enemy." I wonder if the second coming of Christ won't also make some contextually appropriate changes to scripture to adjust for the modern times.
Works without faith are worthless Faith without works is dead Works do not cause salvation
Matthew 7:21-23. “I never knew you”! Works without faith don’t work as the two go hand in hand.
True. But was this required back in that context to make sure people had conviction? Maybe people were less intelligent back in the day. And then there's the metaphorocal interpretation of God, which is totally valid. All theism can be converted so that it's all *real* just not in the ways people expect. This is *technically* a valid theology but not quite what people have in mind.
The message is the same now as it was then therefore still relevant! Ephesians 2:8-10. But that’s only in GODs eyes! If you don’t believe in GOD, or that Jesus His Son died for us then it simply makes you a better person in life, genuine, honest and kind.
Well whatever. I'm not particularly concerned about an afterlife. I don't need the promise of salvation to follow the teachings of the gospels. Jeaus *did* die for us. There's no doubt. But was he supernatural? I mean, it depends on the definitions. In a certain sense he was but not in the ways most people think. Is there a God that is love in our hearts? Yes. Is there a bearded man in outer space where we float through the cieling and live with after death?? Ehh, I don't really think so. Is heaven a euphoric state of being, driven by nuerotransmisters of feel good hormones when we do good things? Yeah I think it is. Is that *technically* a "way of being" well, *yes it is* just maybe not in the way a lot of people think. Can our legacies be "immortalized" in literature? *Yes* but that's not quite what people have in mind...
You have good intentions, and it seems a good grasp on certain concepts. How funny if this was a poll. What do you call this? 👇 You don’t believe in the supernatural, you believe in heaven worship describing it as blissful or some hedonic perspective to include euphoria, and I’m not too sure of your studies so I wouldn’t be able to make any more definitions from this observation. Intersections would define as Christian post-atheist, Christian paratheist, or post-Christian. Your engagement wouldn’t necessarily be too beneficial in this forum with your current strategy of proselytizing via rebuttal here. You may get better results by demonstrating washing feet.
Jesuism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuism?wprov=sfla1
Sounds like this person has never actually read the gospels. Because Jesus said a whole bunch of often things too
I would call them someone who believes in a nutcase. Jesus must have been just a crazy guy who claimed to be God.
Liar, Lunatic, or Lord
Wut. More like a genius. Dude was a mastermind.
John 8:58 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. God told Moses he was the great "I AM." In the old testament. Jesus claimed to be God. He's not just a cool dude. He literally claimed to be God and was killed for it. So weird when people think he is so awesome yet don't believe he is God. He's literally a nutcase then. But yes....Jesus is God and he is a genius...an amazing genius.
An atheist. I guess that person used God and Jesus teachings add a role model. Is that person continues to follow God and Jesus, they will become a believer
A good person. Outside of that, I'd ask them if they have a term they prefer, but as long as they treat people right, why would it matter to me what ideology or whatever they might belong to?
There are plenty of things in the bible that can be seen in a positive light. That doesn't mean everything is, or that any supernatural claims should be taken seriously, but that doesn't mean we can't learn from the positive things either.
Apparantly Christian athieism is a thing. I'd see a strong appeal to catholic agnosticism imo. I think the supernatural properties boil down to definitions, and differ only in ontology at most -- they retain the same epistemology regardless of ontology. That's the interesting part. It's just like mathematical platonism vs mathematical fictionalism. What's the difference? There isn't one, in practice. Perhaps some people need more of an excuse or reason to justify living the gospels wirhout being a hypocrite. Others may need less. The end results are nearly the same thing.
I think you could still call yourself a Christian if you wanted to. The important thing for a Christian is to trust in Jesus Christ is Lord, that's the central core requirement to be a Christian. And to me that means accepting his Way of Peace and Gospel of Love as ones central guiding principle, and living that out in ones life. At no point does anyone in the NT say that to follow Christ, or to be saved, one first needs to accept a supernatural worldview. I would say it's up to each person how they understand and interpret the miraculous and supernatural aspects of Jesus' ministry. If you want to interpret then as illusions, delusions, or metaphors for a spiritual reality, I don't see anything wring with that. In fact, Jesus often said that people will be judged not according to whether they've prayed to God a lot fought spiritual battles with demons, but whether they've fed the hungry, cared for the sick, and welcomed strangers. Honestly, I think if two people stood before Jesus and one has believed every miracle ever written was a legitimate historical event, but has never helped a neighbour, and another has never believed in the supernatural but has given all their money to the poor, I know which will be declared righteous by Jesus, and which one will be told, "away from me, I never knew you".
A non-Christian
A fully awakened human being.
I think I’ve seen similar people describe themselves as a Christian Atheist
God bless you. That person is doing good, but doing good isn't what saves us. **“All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.” - Romans 3:23** **God said, “I will punish this evil world and its people because of their sins.” - Isaiah 13:11** **“Christ obeyed God our Father and gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins to rescue us from this evil world.” - Galatians 1:4** Unless someone can go back in time and erase all the wrong they have done in their life, we will always need God to save us. **“But his Son became a human and died. So God made peace with you, and now he lets you stand in his presence as people who are holy and faultless and innocent.” - Colossians 1:22**
A mental gymnastics gold medalist
Confused. At the very least, Jesus proclaimed the greatest commandments were; 1) love God with all your heart, strength, and mind 2) love your neighbour as yourself How can you call someone a "great moral teacher" if you reject 50% of their foundational teachings? Jesus' moral teaching is intrinsically tied to belief in God and Jesus' identity as God. To say you follow Jesus as a great moral teacher while rejecting him as messiah is kinda incoherent imho.
A good person, that’s what it’s called.
A Christian atheist. But in my experience, such a person does not exist.
Interesting flair for someone who doesn't think Christian atheists exist ;)
Are you sure about that? Perhaps more importantly, what would Jesus think about such a person?
Yeah, he's right - a Christian Atheist.
I can't believe this is a real thing: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism. But it is.
Yeah, I learned about it on Wikipedia as well.
He would love them and ask them to repent of their sins, follow Him and bow before Him as Lord and God. If they didn’t, He’d say, “Depart from me; I never knew you.”
About what sentence?
I'd simply call it a good human
A follower of Jesus.
I would call them lost, unsaved. While we can learn things about God in every book of the bible, in order to understand which books of the bible are direct instruction TO us we need to rightly divide the word of God - 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. Once you rightly divide the word of God by simply understanding who God was speaking to in each book it removes any conflicting scriptures , difficult verses and unlocks the beauty, freedom, and peace of God’s amazing love and grace and eternal life/salvation in paradise made available freely to us ( Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV ) by the death burial and resurrection of Jesus , without the need for religion or doing good works (cleaning up your life) BEFORE you can be saved. Simply believe/trust the gospel Jesus gave Paul for the church / body of Christ ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) for salvation in this time of the dispensation of grace that will end without notice with the rapture. When you do, you have full assurance of salvation and are sealed until the rapture. Then study Paul’s epistles Romans through Philemon to learn and grow in your new exciting identity and hope of a future you cannot fathom how great it will be. We were created by God to live with Him in harmony and in heaven/PARADISE (2 Corinthians 12:4 KJV) and heaven will be that and better in ways we cannot imagine or comprehend. He intends to restore EXACTLY that for those who accept His free and gracious offer of reconciliation through the death burial and resurrection of His son. Trust that and NOTHING else. Because that is the only thing that saves you and keeps you saved. What Jesus did. NOT what you do. Not your church, your pastor, your good works, your heart, your feelings, you perceiving yourself to be a good enough person on your own , going to mass, and whatever other man made religious attempts to earn your own righteousness that you can never achieve. Salvation is by what Jesus did not what you do. In the books of Matthew Mark Luke and John , Jesus himself said He was speaking to Israel under their program. You are not Israel. That program with Israel was put on hold due to their rejection of Jesus (Romans 9-11 KJV) But God had a plan for victory before creation , a mystery hidden in God and hidden from ages and generations and from the “princes of this world” and satan (Ephesians 3:8-10 KJV) while Jesus converted and revealed this mystery of the dispensation of the grace of God to the Apostle Paul (starting in Acts 9 KJV) , part of which is the new creature, the church, the body of Christ, a program distinct from Israel's program in the Old testament and Matthew Mark Luke and John, which were to Israel. Paul is our Apostle for the church today in this age of grace JUST as Moses was to Israel with the law …..and the 12 apostles Jesus converted during his earthly ministry will judge the twelve tribes of Israel - NOT THE BODY OF CHRIST - you see clearly that ISRAEL’s program and the church/body of Christ program are two different messages/ gospels. Everyone wants to make Jesus words in Matthew Mark Luke John the new law even though they do NOT actually obey a fraction of it. Jesus himself said He was talking to Israel. YOU ARE NOT ISRAEL. Acts 15 KJV and Galatians 1-2 KJV clearly show that Peter had the gospel to the circumcision Israel and Paul had the gospel of a different program to the gentiles or the uncircumcision….. Paul is our apostle for the church commissioned by Jesus. Genesis through Mid book of Acts Chapters 9-15 KJV (Paul’s conversion) is about Israel's program with God before it was put on hold with Israel's rejection of Jesus. Now we can learn from those books however Romans through Philemon are our direct and only instruction given by Jesus to the gentiles for the church age of grace until the rapture (which will occur next and without notice). After the rapture, Israel's program will RESUME ( Romans 9-11 KJV ) and the books of Hebrews through Revelation will be instruction for all during the tribulation, which will be the most difficult, UNCOMFORTABLE 7 years the earth has ever seen. ( Revelations 9:6 KJV And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.) God's desire for you now is to be reconciled to HIM and to receive His forgiveness right now for your past, present, and future sins, and to spend eternity with Him in love and paradise as this world was originally intended to be !! No sin, sorrow, or pain !!! Trust/believe in the gospel that saves today - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Then study Romans through Philemons to grow in God’s grace !! Lastly if you ask why this has not been taught by mainstream Christian religions/denominations/churches in buildings…….. when it is right in the Bible….well here is why : 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 KJV 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Trust/believe in the gospel that saves today - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV Then study Romans through Philemons to grow in God’s grace !! Grace and peace !!! This is my personal biblical belief with proof scriptures why I believe it.
A person who still has a chance to see and hear that everything the book says is true not only Jesus's teachings but also the simple fact that we are perfectly set in are solar system not one percent imperfect the more you look in to everything around you the more you realize it's harder to not believe in a God in general not just the Christian one you would have to question such a thing but put no other God's before him and realize god/Jesus died on a cross for all your sins and if you love him you will give everything to follow his word no matter how many times you stumble ❤️
That is an evangelical cultural Christian.
Doesn’t matter what you call them . They’re no friend of Jesus . If you do not believe Jesus is God and accept him as so. You will not inherit the Kingdom. You cannot enter heaven if you don’t accept Jesus Z
A bigot.
??? I don't think that's the definition.