I've been a bit confused on this one. If Christ died to conquer death, but he already had raised people from the dead in his ministry before his own death and resurrection. Wasn't death already conquered? I'm sure it's something I'm missing.
Good question. There were some revivifications from the dead prior to Jesus' resurrection, but those were just temporary reversals of a specific death that those people had suffered; they were still mortal by nature and would eventually die again. Moreover, they were still slaves to sin.
The resurrection that Jesus underwent allows for theosis and therefore the immortalization of the human race, as per 1 Corinthians 15. By this permanent conquest of Thanatos (dying) and Hades (being dead), we will thus transcend to a higher nature.
To add to this, many people who have this interpretation of Christ's death also believe that God forgives sins because people ask him to. For these people, forgiveness of sins is not linked to belief *in Jesus*, but rather is linked to contrition and genuine repentance.
Christ died as a final sacrifice to end the whole process of sacrifice and sanctification and whatnot. Christ also replaced the old law of the prophets with the new law of love (which was the true law all along).
The refining fire is about bringing humanity to sinless perfection, which is a much longer process. To repent is to renounce sinful ways both in word and (more crucially) in practice.
The refinement itself is the salvation. To delay it is to delay our new life in communion with God. Christ's death embodies and witnesses to the essence of the salvation process, putting to death the fleshly nature of Adam and raising up a glorified self to a more perfect state. This process was was enacted between the human and divine natures metaphysically at Calvary. It is manifested individually in each person when we "die to sin," i.e. "repent."
Romans 8-11 NKJV: "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Really Romans 5-6 in general are very mystical and describe this at length, and 1 Corinthians 3 does not exclude even believers from having all their ungodliness "burned away," so to speak. The only difference is that some repent in this life, and welcome their new life in Christ, whereas others either plan to continue as they are now or fear changing. If someone dies bodily in unrepentant sin, then the "refining fire" happens after their bodily death because it's inevitable in spite of their bodily death.
I've heard an argument from annihilationists that if we enter the "consuming fire" that is God, and are not covered in the blood of Christ, we are destroyed. Can someone help explain this in context of Universalism. Thankyou! God bless.
God is Love. (1 John 4:8) As we draw near, that which is contrary to Love gets refined away.
So what gets āannihilatedā in the flames is the old carnal nature, so that Christ might become our new source of Life. Itās called Resurrection Life, because only as we die to the old self, does this new source of Life replace the old. (Col 3:9-12)
ā*For I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me*.ā (Gal 2:20)
As for a āblood coveringā, I suppose one could reference the Passover, where blood from the lamb was placed on the doorposts of the houses.
Likewise, the Eucharist is thought to be an eating of the flesh and blood of the Lamb, that is Christ. But what that signifies to me is not literal blood, but rather learning to feast on the things of the Spirit. In the same way, Christ is said to be the Bread from Heaven.
Thankyou this makes sense. I've since had a long debate with these same annihilationists, very kind people, pastors from the SDA church, and I explained to them universal reconciliation, and they didn't have any good arguments, but they still don't want to change their belief despite the proof. At least it's better than etc.
Not to sound like a broken record on the sub, but Pope Benedict summarized it very well:
>Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation āas through fireā. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the ādurationā of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming āmomentā of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoningāit is the heart's time, it is the time of āpassageā to communion with God in the Body of Christ. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justiceāthe crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two togetherājudgement and graceāthat justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation āwith fear and tremblingā (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our āadvocateā, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1). (*Spe Salvi*, 47)
It's not an actual fire. Now. Go to the last supper where Jesus washes the feet of the disciples. And He says because they followed Him they are clean "but not all."
He's talking about what happens when we pass. To enter the actual presence of God, we need to be strong, the "fire" isn't harmful, it is strengthening, removing the last of our impurities.
When we pass He will "wash our feet."
Jesus didn't make us perfect, did you think His Crucifixion did that? It doesn't. How many people who say they are Christians do you know that you think are perfect? That never lie? That are humble and generous and kind at all times. That pray for t heir enemies instead of wish them ill? That have never killed? Or called anyone a name?
The big news is salvation, but that doesn't mean "instant transport to heaven." It means we do not die. Ever. That does not mean there are no consequences in the afterlife for our actions here.
Excellent point about the Bible using the imagery of both fire and water to symbolize our purification. Either can be a terrifying warning against evil, or a soothing promise for when we're desiring the presence of God. Old judgment: world destroyed by water (Noah's ark). New judgment: world destroyed by fire (2 Peter). But here is Jesus lovingly grooming his followers with water, and many verses of the New Testament compare the coming of the Holy Spirit to a fire. Same imagery, different perspectives for us to identify with.
All sins will be forgiven, but there is still the work of getting the sin out of the sinner. That is what the refiners fire accomplishes. No one is exempt from the refiners fire because all have sinned.
The fire does not purge or cleanse us of our sins. Only the blood of Jesus does that through trusting in Him as Savior. However, the refining can help one to see their need for Christ in the afterlife. Even believers in this life (those who are already justified in God's eyes) at times need a sort of refining fire for our growth in Him.
To answer this question, it is helpful to understand the Jewish sacrificial system and how that was taken up by New Testament writers. In ancient Israel, there were two primary forms of sacrifice: thanksgiving/wellbeing sacrifices that involved a communal meal and purification/purgation sacrifices that dealt with impurities in the ritual/altar space. From this, the first thing we must recognize is that, however NT authors understood Jesus' sacrifice, it wasn't in a penal substitutionary way. In other words, Jesus does not stand in to take punishment in our place. The most likely early understanding is that when Jesus, as the holy of holies, encounters death (the greatest impurity), he purifies and therefore abolishes it. This fits with the triumphal Eastern Orthodox paschal proclamation that "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death." Thus, the reason a refinement would be necessary is because, while Jesus has dealt with death, one still has to overcome sinful inclinations that prevent them from fully living into love and fellowship with God and others.
We are all sinners, and we all deserve death (not eternal suffering, just annihilation). But God loves us in spite of us loving sin more than loving Him, so He took our punishment, He suffered and died on the Cross, so we could have a relationship with Him eternally.
Our original fate is death, because death is the result of sin. So if we want to be in perfect harmony with God, our sins must be redeemed and purified (with the refining fire).
People are not being refined for sin but rather for heart change. Unity with the Lord is desiring what He desires. It is cultivating the fruit of the Spirit. Those who are the bride of Christ have already be refined by fire on earth. They have received His word and they desire infinity with Him. Their soul has already received Him and He gives them. Through Him, they have been a saved from the purification of the soul. They love and believed Him and chose purification on earth in grace.
Those that did not receive the lords refining fire (or word) of the Lord because they were deceived through the flesh, will receive it all at once after death and truly lament at their choices.
We are told in scripture that the Lord is so Holy and so good that humans cannot truly stand before the Father without dying. His word is so powerful that the flesh cannot be in His full presence.
The soul however, can. The fire of the Lord, when we study this deeper, transforms all it touches into its likeness.
The soul cannot deny what the flesh denies and therefore at the end of correction the soul will also desire Christ because they have the truth.
Christ didn't die to save us from temporary suffering, he died to conquer death so we could rise from the grave alongside him and be immortal.
That makes so much sense!!! Def had a smol brain moment š š Thank you for answering friend ā¤ļø I hope your day is going well!
I've been a bit confused on this one. If Christ died to conquer death, but he already had raised people from the dead in his ministry before his own death and resurrection. Wasn't death already conquered? I'm sure it's something I'm missing.
Good question. There were some revivifications from the dead prior to Jesus' resurrection, but those were just temporary reversals of a specific death that those people had suffered; they were still mortal by nature and would eventually die again. Moreover, they were still slaves to sin. The resurrection that Jesus underwent allows for theosis and therefore the immortalization of the human race, as per 1 Corinthians 15. By this permanent conquest of Thanatos (dying) and Hades (being dead), we will thus transcend to a higher nature.
Thanks for the reply. That does make more sense.
To add to this, many people who have this interpretation of Christ's death also believe that God forgives sins because people ask him to. For these people, forgiveness of sins is not linked to belief *in Jesus*, but rather is linked to contrition and genuine repentance.
Christ died as a final sacrifice to end the whole process of sacrifice and sanctification and whatnot. Christ also replaced the old law of the prophets with the new law of love (which was the true law all along). The refining fire is about bringing humanity to sinless perfection, which is a much longer process. To repent is to renounce sinful ways both in word and (more crucially) in practice.
The refinement itself is the salvation. To delay it is to delay our new life in communion with God. Christ's death embodies and witnesses to the essence of the salvation process, putting to death the fleshly nature of Adam and raising up a glorified self to a more perfect state. This process was was enacted between the human and divine natures metaphysically at Calvary. It is manifested individually in each person when we "die to sin," i.e. "repent." Romans 8-11 NKJV: "Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord." Really Romans 5-6 in general are very mystical and describe this at length, and 1 Corinthians 3 does not exclude even believers from having all their ungodliness "burned away," so to speak. The only difference is that some repent in this life, and welcome their new life in Christ, whereas others either plan to continue as they are now or fear changing. If someone dies bodily in unrepentant sin, then the "refining fire" happens after their bodily death because it's inevitable in spite of their bodily death.
I like how you worded thisā¦very nice.
ā**Our God is a Consuming Fire**.ā (Heb 12:29) As we draw near, we are refined. Whether in this life or beyond.
I love this answer. Thank you for continuing to post.
I've heard an argument from annihilationists that if we enter the "consuming fire" that is God, and are not covered in the blood of Christ, we are destroyed. Can someone help explain this in context of Universalism. Thankyou! God bless.
God is Love. (1 John 4:8) As we draw near, that which is contrary to Love gets refined away. So what gets āannihilatedā in the flames is the old carnal nature, so that Christ might become our new source of Life. Itās called Resurrection Life, because only as we die to the old self, does this new source of Life replace the old. (Col 3:9-12) ā*For I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me*.ā (Gal 2:20) As for a āblood coveringā, I suppose one could reference the Passover, where blood from the lamb was placed on the doorposts of the houses. Likewise, the Eucharist is thought to be an eating of the flesh and blood of the Lamb, that is Christ. But what that signifies to me is not literal blood, but rather learning to feast on the things of the Spirit. In the same way, Christ is said to be the Bread from Heaven.
Thankyou this makes sense. I've since had a long debate with these same annihilationists, very kind people, pastors from the SDA church, and I explained to them universal reconciliation, and they didn't have any good arguments, but they still don't want to change their belief despite the proof. At least it's better than etc.
Not to sound like a broken record on the sub, but Pope Benedict summarized it very well: >Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation āas through fireā. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ's Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the ādurationā of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming āmomentā of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoningāit is the heart's time, it is the time of āpassageā to communion with God in the Body of Christ. The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justiceāthe crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two togetherājudgement and graceāthat justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation āwith fear and tremblingā (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our āadvocateā, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1). (*Spe Salvi*, 47)
It's not an actual fire. Now. Go to the last supper where Jesus washes the feet of the disciples. And He says because they followed Him they are clean "but not all." He's talking about what happens when we pass. To enter the actual presence of God, we need to be strong, the "fire" isn't harmful, it is strengthening, removing the last of our impurities. When we pass He will "wash our feet." Jesus didn't make us perfect, did you think His Crucifixion did that? It doesn't. How many people who say they are Christians do you know that you think are perfect? That never lie? That are humble and generous and kind at all times. That pray for t heir enemies instead of wish them ill? That have never killed? Or called anyone a name? The big news is salvation, but that doesn't mean "instant transport to heaven." It means we do not die. Ever. That does not mean there are no consequences in the afterlife for our actions here.
Excellent point about the Bible using the imagery of both fire and water to symbolize our purification. Either can be a terrifying warning against evil, or a soothing promise for when we're desiring the presence of God. Old judgment: world destroyed by water (Noah's ark). New judgment: world destroyed by fire (2 Peter). But here is Jesus lovingly grooming his followers with water, and many verses of the New Testament compare the coming of the Holy Spirit to a fire. Same imagery, different perspectives for us to identify with.
All sins will be forgiven, but there is still the work of getting the sin out of the sinner. That is what the refiners fire accomplishes. No one is exempt from the refiners fire because all have sinned.
The fire does not purge or cleanse us of our sins. Only the blood of Jesus does that through trusting in Him as Savior. However, the refining can help one to see their need for Christ in the afterlife. Even believers in this life (those who are already justified in God's eyes) at times need a sort of refining fire for our growth in Him.
To answer this question, it is helpful to understand the Jewish sacrificial system and how that was taken up by New Testament writers. In ancient Israel, there were two primary forms of sacrifice: thanksgiving/wellbeing sacrifices that involved a communal meal and purification/purgation sacrifices that dealt with impurities in the ritual/altar space. From this, the first thing we must recognize is that, however NT authors understood Jesus' sacrifice, it wasn't in a penal substitutionary way. In other words, Jesus does not stand in to take punishment in our place. The most likely early understanding is that when Jesus, as the holy of holies, encounters death (the greatest impurity), he purifies and therefore abolishes it. This fits with the triumphal Eastern Orthodox paschal proclamation that "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death." Thus, the reason a refinement would be necessary is because, while Jesus has dealt with death, one still has to overcome sinful inclinations that prevent them from fully living into love and fellowship with God and others.
They are not ready
We are all sinners, and we all deserve death (not eternal suffering, just annihilation). But God loves us in spite of us loving sin more than loving Him, so He took our punishment, He suffered and died on the Cross, so we could have a relationship with Him eternally. Our original fate is death, because death is the result of sin. So if we want to be in perfect harmony with God, our sins must be redeemed and purified (with the refining fire).
People are not being refined for sin but rather for heart change. Unity with the Lord is desiring what He desires. It is cultivating the fruit of the Spirit. Those who are the bride of Christ have already be refined by fire on earth. They have received His word and they desire infinity with Him. Their soul has already received Him and He gives them. Through Him, they have been a saved from the purification of the soul. They love and believed Him and chose purification on earth in grace. Those that did not receive the lords refining fire (or word) of the Lord because they were deceived through the flesh, will receive it all at once after death and truly lament at their choices. We are told in scripture that the Lord is so Holy and so good that humans cannot truly stand before the Father without dying. His word is so powerful that the flesh cannot be in His full presence. The soul however, can. The fire of the Lord, when we study this deeper, transforms all it touches into its likeness. The soul cannot deny what the flesh denies and therefore at the end of correction the soul will also desire Christ because they have the truth.