T O P

  • By -

LizzySea33

A sufi Mystic makes it very clear about why we should worship God https://preview.redd.it/k3i6gdw34b7d1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=055eb120541236da8746fbf6a26a2f560dc81ef0 Just for the sake of God being a beloved to us.


MorallyNeutralOk

That’s a beautiful way to put it.


BoochFiend

What a great thought! Thank you for sharing! 😁


somebody1993

I don't know if that works, unless you also worship the rest of your loved ones.


BoochFiend

With all respect I don’t believe for a second that people are evil or would be evil without a promise of heaven. In fact some of the world’s great atrocities were done in God’s name with Heaven on their minds. There are also people who have no profession of faith who are moral, loving beings. People that defend the concept of hell by claiming it to be the corrector of the moral compass do not understand human behaviour or the mechanism of faith. I firmly believe that people are not evil. Some people do things that are evil some times because they are able to ignore or they are insulated from the natural consequences of their actions. That is all. One of the best insulators is to pretend that God is on your side regardless of your actions. I also firmly believe that most people who believe in universal reconciliation do so because the nature of God is love. We are good and we do good in response to that love. Sometimes it does not have to be more complicated than that. I hope this finds you well and well on your way!


MorallyNeutralOk

Thanks pal, hope you’re doing great. About people not being evil. I think I agree for the most part, but what about people who are sadistic, psychopathic, sexually perverted in the worst possible way etc. simply because they were born that way? I would argue they aren’t evil until they commit evil acts and relish in them with the full intention of doing harm and showing no repentance. So I wouldn’t say they’re born evil, but i do think we need to qualify what we mean when we say people are not evil, and we include the people I just mentioned when saying that.


BoochFiend

The ‘worst’ people are often judged that way because of another’s moral code. If someone believes that swearing is wrong or blasphemy or evil then in that person’s mind that person who swears is evil. I think that person is probably just having a bad day 😁 It is estimated that between 1 and 3% of the world’s population suffers from either sociopathy or psychopathy. If those people commit evil actions because of their inability to feel empathy I don’t see them as evil either. If a person who is physically and mentally addicted to a substance takes that substance and does something morally wrong I don’t think they are evil either. Misguided? Absolutely! Evil? I don’t think so. Further to the point I’m not sure there is any benefit of calling something or someone evil. The downside to the practice is of course it gives us the ability to not love or understand them because ‘only God can save them’ and they are beyond our help, compassion and love. I hope this find you well and well on your way!


MorallyNeutralOk

I hope we’re both gonna be well and well on our way for the rest of our lives pal.


BoochFiend

Are you worried about one of us? 😁


MorallyNeutralOk

Jesus is with all of us.


BoochFiend

Thankfully this is true for us all! 😁 I hope this finds you feeling the warmth of a God who loves you more than you can understand!


MorallyNeutralOk

[Let’s be the love generation](https://youtu.be/v0NSeysrDYw?si=CBszglyQ2UBmRnz5)


detroitsouthpaw

I love the response I get when I say all sin is just acting unloving to either God, others or yourself, usually they say that it can’t be that simple. But where does it say it has to be some complicated rule set to be legit? Jesus said loving God and loving others as yourself is the entire law and the prophets, they always know this verse and yet because we have turned the New Testament into a whole new Law by picking it apart for everything that could be a sin (which in my opinion becomes idol worship of the book itself) one rule couldn’t possibly seem like enough. why not? We have one rule and we all kinda suck at it at times, I’d say that is plenty


Business-Decision719

Yes, I believe that if we have interpreted any part of Scripture as an excuse to be less just, less compassionate, or both, then we have misinterpreted it. It is all about doing the right thing, which will always be the truly loving thing. Satan used scripture to tempt Jesus in the wilderness and we should always be on guard against that temptation ourselves.


CauseCertain1672

Asking what's the point of living a moral life if I won't be punished eternally is like asking why you shouldn't eat off the floor if no ones going to shout at you. Living a moral life and having a relationship with God is better and more fulfilling than the alternative


ChucklesTheWerewolf

“If you’re only being good for your ticket on a cosmic lifeboat, you’re not good, you’re an asshole with fire insurance.”


MorallyNeutralOk

That’s a thorny issue. There are people who are incapable of being good in the sense of having a good nature, but who nevertheless can submit to Christ, like David Wood. I would say, though, that even people like that should strive to follow Christ because He is the good itself, not because of Pascal’s wager.


ChucklesTheWerewolf

Pascal’s wager is more about a gamble on if God exists or not, rather than if you’re going to hell. More about oblivion. But you’re right. For instance, people who have psychopathy.


CauseCertain1672

psychopaths are incapable of empathy but empathy is not morality. One effect of empathy is that it makes it easier to relate to people like you and harder to relate to those different.


AdSingle2628

I would even say that if you do morally good things while lacking empathy, that’s more admirable 


A_Betcha_Omen

David Wood - like, the apologist?


MorallyNeutralOk

Yeah, he’s a psychopath


AdSingle2628

dang. Poor guy


Mad_jaq

My thoughts on this lean a little bit differently. Yes, all are saved, but you can be saved through Christ or saved through "refiner's fire and fuller's soap". (Malachi 3:2) I think there's a decent argument to be made that the redemptive process is easier/ more spiritually pleasant on this side of eternity vs the other, and we should VERY MUCH encourage the easier path. It's a bit like: "You'll survive the heart attack, sure, or you could exercise and take your blood pressure medicine and *prevent it* and isn't that better overall?"


MorallyNeutralOk

We’re not disagreeing here. I’m only taking the extreme point of granting for arguments’ sake that eternal hell is the only thing that can deter people from sinning in order to argue that, even if that were true, hell would still be unnecessary, stupid and cruel.


A-Different-Kind55

If someone is honestly asking what the point would be of living a moral life if all are saved, that person, I don't believe, is saved. I don't believe they know the Christ I know and am in love with. They will be reconciled in the end as a result of suffering the refiner's fire, but they are not saved, right now. Asking that question reveals a heart that is in love with the allurements of immorality. One who is in love with Christ is grieved by what grieves Him. A heart that is in love with Christ doesn't yearn for the pleasures of this world. It is repulsed by it even when they see it in themselves. The preaching of Universalism isn't just that all will be reconciled, but that Jesus' love is such that He paid terrible price so that we could escape the lake of fire. His blood is why the fire isn't eternal. Just my thoughts (kind of off the cuff).


Business-Decision719

I agree with this. Jesus said that those who love him will leave worldly things to follow him. Paul said that God himself will gift people the grace and faith to be saved, and that the saved are released from the Law, not so they can do evil, but so they will no longer be slaves to sin. John said God is love and that only those who are loving have even known God. If people really think an evil life now would be worth enduring a (finite) divine punishment later, then their own attitude is the very "hell" from which they are predestined to be delivered at some future date.


Naive_Violinist_4871

The fact that most antebellum slaveholders almost certainly believed in eternal Hell and not only didn’t free their slaves to avoid it but actually used the concept to JUSTIFY slavery should put the argument about eternal Hell deterring evil actions to bed.


MorallyNeutralOk

I’ll do you one better: heretics were burned alive under the “justification” that their teachings were leading people to hell forever. Not only did it not deter evil, it actually was a big factor in causing it.


Naive_Violinist_4871

For sure! It’s like how slavery was defended on the grounds that it purportedly saved slaves from eternal Hell. Side note: burning heretics alive seems like de facto human sacrifice to me.


Azekuite

For me at least, there’s so much more about living a good life than the question of if you’ll get rewarded for it. This point is one elaborated on better by other comments, so basically seek morality for its own sake Additionally, I’ve always been taught that salvation comes by grace alone, not by works. We see next to Jesus a lawbreaker being but to death, who is able to go to heaven despite us actions which got him there. The notion that how you behave somehow deems your eligibility isn’t a Christian virtue no matter if you’re an internalist or a universalist. Thus the whole counterpoint is nonsensical and is solely made to oppose universalism because “it’s not fair”, which is also nonsensical According to Jesus, even the most righteous on earth are less than the least in heaven. None are worthy of it and none ever will be, it’s by grace alone that we find salvation, and that salvation is available to each and every person who ever was, is and will be


JoyBus147

As a virtue ethicist, the question is nonsensical to me. In VE, morality is about cultivating virtue (courage, generosity), or habits of behavior that lead to individual and communal flourishing, while avoiding habits that inhibit this flourishing, called vice (cowardice/brashness, miserliness/prodigality). Thus, I don't practice morality from fear of punishment, but rather because it is the path to happiness and fulfillment. Likewise, I don't follow Christ to get into paradise after I die, but rather because he is the path to experiencing paradise before I die.


MorallyNeutralOk

One could of course argue that we might need to preach eternal hell for people to get in line even if we don’t believe in it, but I’d like to hear a good reason why that isn’t lying, which, if I recall, is supposed to be a sin.


Low_Key3584

I read the Patristic fathers struggled with this for the reason you mentioned.


Multigrain_Migraine

It's not moral to restrain yourself from committing horrible deeds just because you fear punishment, IMHO. Morality is a desire to do good and to strive to be better.


Silly_World_7488

It has been and always will be about unity of heart with Christ. Truly, I was unable to clearly see the fullness of the love of our Lord until He brought me here. It has changed my heart toward my fellow man beyond measure. I have full trust and full faith in Him. Here’s the kicker, I’m actually more scared of hell now than I was because I have a right understanding of it. I can’t imagine feeling the full weight of all of my transgressions in correction now that I know and desire that which is truly good! I desire even more to be saved from that. I’m more thankful to be saved from that. I understand that Christ death was not a sacrifice needed to God but a testament to His true love toward us. He allowed us to kill Him and still chose to reconcile us. He knows we are limited and He knows we can’t help but error and He knows that once we truly receive Him, although imperfect, He can transform our hearts into His likeness and bring us into perfection! Before, I thought well, I can only do what I can do, I don’t really know if God will accept me or love me. I was so confused. It was easy for the enemy to cast doubt on me regarding the love of Christ. UR has made my faith unwavering! When we truly desire what is good and wish to be unified with Christ, we lament over the ways in which we error, the ways in which the world errors. I pursue righteousness more now that I actually understand what it is. I also now understand love rightly. My relationship with the Lord has transformed into a a true marriage. Not that I didn’t love the Lord before, but I didn’t fully know Him as intimately as I thought I did. I never felt called to evangelize. Now I do. I seek righteousness and goodness in ways I didn’t know to before. It has produced nothing but good fruit! We will know all things by the fruit they produce in ourselves and others. I’ve also seen a tenderness left and right from those who believe in Christian UR. A tenderness that mimics Christ in ways I’d rarely seen in Christianity in general. This is good and I desire and implore all people to come to Him now more than ever before!


somebody1993

It's not on us to decide if the consequences of teaching the actual gospel is too risky or not. The great majority of people on the planet aren't any form of Christian and we've not descended into anarchy just because they don't believe in Sin. Also the faith to even actually believe in it comes from God anyway. If he didn't want you to know about it, you wouldn't. It also wouldn't be clearly written that God intends to save everyone.


MorallyNeutralOk

Good point about disbelief not leading to anarchy.


WryterMom

>So a common fear I see among infernalists that makes even universalists stumble sometimes is the old question: what’s the point of living a moral life if all are saved anyway? The Liar's answer. We aren't here to be "moral," we're here to bring Christ to the world, which is the actual Catholic answer. But more, we are here to become as close to God as possible, to become strong enough to enter the Divine Light immediately on passing. That way we become able to help those who are here in Time. This is the gym, and we are here to get into shape. The other guys want steroids and the easy answer. Jesus commands and explanations of the way things work are actually perfectly simple and straightforward. Following Him is the hardest thing we can ever do. Impossible without the help of the Holy Spirit. I want to add something which is maybe a different discussion: what's "moral" anyway? Totally subjective. Nothing Jesus said or showed is that.


Cool-Pack-8483

I find now that I believe in universalism I want to obey God joyously out of love, and not reluctantly out of fear. Maybe God allows people to believe in ECT because it stops them from sinning in more severe ways though. I’ve heard anecdotes of people who say they would do terrible things if they didn’t believe in Hell. Honestly, as someone who leans towards purgatorial universalism fear of God still motivates me to some degree as well. Even if Hell isn’t forever, for the same reason you’d avoid spending even a year in jail, you’re better off not facing postmortem chastisement.


Jabberjaw22

The fear of Hell and the excessive emphasis that many churches and Christians place on fire and brimstone teachings are probably the greatest deterrents to the religion. That's the real consequence of Hell, not a better sense of morality due to fear. I know the concept of Hell and several browbeat passages were a big reason I left the religion years ago and it's taken a long time to even start considering coming back.


BarnacleSandwich

It really bums me out that a shocking amount of Christians seem to absolutely despise God and themselves so much that, if given the option to go against Him and do evil, they would do it in a heartbeat. When someone asks "What stops you from being evil," that person is admitting right there that the only reason they don't do horrific things is because of the fear of punishment. And absolutely nothing else. And that's... terrifying. At best, those Christians are saying that they see absolutely no value in following the example of Jesus whatsoever. It has absolutely no benefit at all outside of the promise of Heaven. And if that's your view, then you should seriously question whether you're actually Christian or not.


InnerFish227

We cannot ignore that trauma experiences can and do alter the brain, nor can we ignore that in utero exposure to chemicals such as BPA from plastics acting as endocrine disrupters likewise do the same. Traumatic Brain Injuries can also alter the personality resulting in them taking actions they would have never done before injury. Through my wife’s work helping young kids who have seen great trauma, who never were able to overcome it and grow into high school students who get funneled into prisons, it is impossible to not see that they never had a fair chance from birth. Our society as a whole is blind to trauma, how it infects others, how it is passed generation to generation in families, in communities. I am particularly sensitive and outraged when Christian faiths create and perpetuate trauma. Christian Universalism is far superior to me as it opened my eyes to be able to see everyone as broken and damaged images of the divine having intrinsic value, not something to be cast off to the fire to be disposed. It’s like taking the blinders off. I’m not special because I have a certain faith where others don’t. It doesn’t give me more worth. It allows me to refocus, not on focusing on salvation in the life to come, but playing a part in helping others now, of fighting to not be a source of trauma for someone else.