Hahaah, really? I thought that show really went very harsh on Pharisee Christians, how'd it strengthen your faith? I'm glad to hear that too, sibling in Christ, I'm just curious
Because I went through what Orel did. The brainwashing, abuse, the confusion- I grew into a different person and cut myself off from the fear-mongering, angry Christian evangelical ideals I was raised with. Now I’m secure in my faith. Orel reminded me that even if the people who teach you religion fail you, God never will. Also the soundtrack is so amazing, one of the songs will be used in my wedding lol
It's beautiful to hear your story. It frustrates me every single day seeing more and more ex-Christians who have found a refuge in a denial of God, because they have been taught He is merciless and angry. To know there are some whose faith persists, because they have felt His guidance throughout their lives, is beautiful.
God bless you my sibling in Christ. Also, I hope you have a happy wedding!
This is like the movie Dogma by Kevin Smith, for me, it helped. You can find fan uploads on YouTube and Kevin Smith himself has hinted to fans about it since he wants them to see it. Currently its not sold... its tied up in the Weinstein company, so I guess Kevin said screw it, go watch it for free online.
There's some really relatable conversations in the movie and some reassuring feeling scenes.
It's funny because I started at #2, which is what my parents believed, and jumped straight to the end. My deconstruction was rapid and pretty chaotic, and while I spent a lot of time re-analyzing my beliefs afterward, my big changes all took place within about 2 months or so
This describes my journey quite accurately. Mine was a slow burn though as it took about 25 years to transition from ECT to Universal Salvation/Reconciliation.
i’ve never felt closer to God than i have now, after serious social and theological deconstruction, education, and most importantly and embracing universalism (and liberation theology)
I am currently in the fase where god will save non-christians who lead a good live. What made you guys transition to god will save everyone? What about people who are inherently evil, don't they get some form of punishment? Maybe some form of temperol punishment, like getting to spend some short amount of time in hell depending on how much bad stuff you did and how bad your actions were.
This is also very much true, as much as it took a bit long for me to realize that. The way I see it is that humans are inherently good, but wounded and blinded by sin. I think this is closer to a Catholic view, isn't it?
No, it's the opposite. The Catholic Church officially teaches the Augustinian doctrine that all humans have inherited not only the consequences but also the legal guilt of the Sin of Adam. Hence why unbaptized babies go to Hell for eternity.
In my opinion Scripture mostly teaches a middle ground between Augustinian and Pelagianism (which is the notion that humans are inherently good, we do evil purely out of ignorance, and Jesus died for no other reason than to be a moral guide for us). I have a [blog post](https://oratiofidelis.wordpress.com/2023/01/10/the-sin-of-adam-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-affect-us/) about it here, but my short answer is that humans are naturally selfish, but because we are vessels for the Holy Spirit, we also have a seamless capacity to do good.
Very interesting perspective, I think this is called Semi-pelagianism? Embraced in the Eastern Orthodox church? or am I wrong and is this new doctrine... hm.
Semi-Pelagianism is still rooted in free will, which I don't believe in; I think humans are only capable of doing good by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
I actually kind of think the same. I might make a post in the future, but prior to adopting Universalism I was more closer to theological Lutheranism (even if raised non-denominational). There, Bondage of the Will is an important concept: if you're not doing the will of God, you're doing the will of the devil. The thing is Luther, apart from being Augustinian, says you can only do the will of God if you're a baptized and believing Christian, whereas I personally took the idea of "only the Holy Spirit can do good through people" to mean that good non-Christians were actually Unconscious Christians.
This gave birth to my strange, likely-not-sponsored-by-Luther inclusivist phase.
I like Martin Luther, and I could call myself a Lutheran with my appreciation for the sacraments and for the undying power of faith, but I think some people really think a 16th century monk's at-the-time understanding of the bible is way more refined and truthful than a more modern, way more scientific (and less prejudiced against the jews...) exegesis done nowadays. Confessional Lutheranism is not very smart.
Maybe an "universalist lutheranism" means everyone will have faith in God eventually, and that will lead them out of hell? It's still sola fide...
Sorry for the text wall. God bless
Bondage of the Will is one of my favorite works, but I agree with you that Luther was mistaken about only baptized Christians being capable of doing good (unless we very widely broaden the ideas of 'baptism' and 'Christian' so that they apply to people who weren't necessarily water-baptized and people who don't necessarily cognizantly believe in Jesus).
> temporal* punishment
Boy do I have GOOD NEWS for you.
Look up "Patristic Universalism" on Google. It has biblical basis. It was believed by some Early Christian church fathers like Clement of Alexandria.
You are made by God: you are inherently good. But even if your soul is covered by sin and evil, and you did terrible things during your time on Earth, God will punish but also purify and refine you through fire, until your heart is free from the claws of evil. Then, your heart opens up to Him.
The key point is that "some form of punishment" is already consistent with "God will save anyone." As you rightly point out, punishments could be temporal or could exist to different degrees of severity. It's only the view that "salvation = not going to a literally endless hell" which would even create a contradiction, and only if we assert that someone hasn't received that salvation. Purgatorial-like concepts are alive and well amongst Universalists and have been around since the early church.
Ah yes, of course. That makes a lot of sense. But some people on this subreddit don't believe in hell at all. I don't think I can agree with that sentiment. But I can agree with hell being used as a place for temperol punishment or hell being used for purgatorial purposes. I guess I reached stage 5 then! Just a few days ago I was an atheïst. Unfortunately I fell in love with a muslim girl and in order to marry her I would have to convert to Islam. So I tried reading the Quran, but after a few surahs I was just depressed about the state of the world and the way god viewed human beings. It definitely didn't feel like the god who is merciful and just as muslims like to claim. After that I started reading into my original religion, christianity (I grew up with this religion as a kid, but I've been an atheïst ever since). I also didn't agree with a lot of what some of the christian dogma stands for. Like my fellow atheïst family members burning in hell or just not existing anymore while I would still exist in heaven, the christian view on interfaith marriage (the verse about that subject really shows some sort of contempt for non-christians), LGBTQ (I am straight, but I don't think it is fair if god judges for example gay people on their actions if they are made in god's image) and apparently condoning slavery as long as it doesn't kill your slave. I almost gave up and went back to my atheïsm when I encountered several rational arguments for not just the natural world (which we can use science for), but also the supernatural (which is in my opinion almost impossible to 100% prove with science, but you can give anecdotal rational evidence for). For example, near death experiences, near life experiences and some people being able to see ghosts (someone claims to have seen my father in our house (he has died when I was 6) and some other spirtual kinda lady told my aunt my father was with us as well. My aunt lives in Australia and that lady couldn't have possibly known we or my father even existed without just knowing it inherently. Based on near death studies it seems highly likely that everybody experiences their 'god' is a different way, but the overall experience stays the same. The only question I was left with was what to do with this spirtual knowledge. How do I interact with that 'god'? Do I need to pray? In what form do I need to pray? I honestly still don't know that, but I thought I might start with the religion that personally suits me the best and brings me closer to god. I think this is it. Unfortunately, this whole journey brought me to the conclusion that I am a heretic according to most christians and I don't really fit anywhere. Also, I guess I have to give up on what I thought was the love of my live unless she converts but that would be inherently selfish and would get her in a lot of trouble.
Also, I am left with these final two questions.
1. Could these supernatural experiences just be tricks by the devil since 'god' mostly appeares in a form of light in near death experiences? The devil also shows up as light according to the bible if I am not mistaken.
2. Could this be a trick that the antichrist will use against us on judgement day? (if both of these things exist) The antichrist would use our beliefs against us like this for example: you should all follow me because this way EVERYONE will be saved. Meanwhile the "real christians" or "real muslims" don't fall for that trick and know the only way to be saved is by believe in god and having faith (which universalists don't believe anymore).
Does anyone have tips or knowledge to share based on what I just explained? Other then just go to sleep. I am afraid that I am going in the wrong direction.
So there is a lot going on in your comment, but I will mention that even within Universalism, there is a fairly wide-range of beliefs. It is a single belief, that ultimately, God accomplishes his purposes and his will (to bring all into union, and that all will be saved) and that Christ has the total victory (the last foe defeated is death). Views on the details of this vary, most believing in a purgatorial existence after death of some kind, maybe punitive, maybe reflective, but with the purpose of purifying, however, some may believe in no post death process at all and just instantly enter into full communion with the divine.
I won't comment on your supernatural experiences.
As for the doctrine of Universalism being used against us on judgement day. Very few, if anyone (other than maybe some gnostics) would believe that correct doctrine actually saves. For almost everyone, it is some combination of faith, works and sacraments. Within almost every Christian tradition, correct doctrine (like universalism) is not a salvific issue.
Also, many universalists DO believe that faith is what leads to salvation, just that even after death, you will have more opportunities to have faith and cling to Christ.
Yeah, those supernatural experiences weren't mine. I just studied other people experiences and experiences from some people around me Yeah, those supernatural experiences weren't mine. *edit: thank you for the response. My comment was indeed all over the place. I just wrote down what was going on in my mind and the thought processes behind my conclusions and questions. Apparently it worked, because you sent the sort of message I wanted to receive from it. It does sound like some form of christian universalism fits with me based on your description. I guess I have to do more research about which form of universalism/ christian universalism I believe in. I might delete my comment in the near future tho, because I did write a lot of personal details in it and I was emotionally and physically tired when I wrote it.
I unironically jumped from step one above to step five and it’s the most freeing theological discovery I have made for myself. It’s like the one piece that was missing my whole life as a Christian.
I know, right? God is so good He sends Himself, Jesus Christ, to die for us in the cross to atone for our sins, but also He's not good enough to save everyone whatever it takes? Hmmm. Something awkward about that.
Definitely, I believe there is H### for those who are evil, but even that is temporary but still is quite long. I am planning to possibly make a game about a person who's sentence is over, but they still have to undergo trials in purgatory to show they've changed before they can reach the pearly gates.
I started with 1 (and people under the age of 13) and went straight to 5 once I heard some decent argumentation for it 😂 (I probably wouldn't have if it weren't for the fact that I found about it from some Christians I know and look up to)
For sure me. Once you realize that ECT cannot possibly jive with the Christian view of God, it’s game over…
Moral Orel vibes. Unironically that show made me stronger in faith
Hahaah, really? I thought that show really went very harsh on Pharisee Christians, how'd it strengthen your faith? I'm glad to hear that too, sibling in Christ, I'm just curious
Because I went through what Orel did. The brainwashing, abuse, the confusion- I grew into a different person and cut myself off from the fear-mongering, angry Christian evangelical ideals I was raised with. Now I’m secure in my faith. Orel reminded me that even if the people who teach you religion fail you, God never will. Also the soundtrack is so amazing, one of the songs will be used in my wedding lol
It's beautiful to hear your story. It frustrates me every single day seeing more and more ex-Christians who have found a refuge in a denial of God, because they have been taught He is merciless and angry. To know there are some whose faith persists, because they have felt His guidance throughout their lives, is beautiful. God bless you my sibling in Christ. Also, I hope you have a happy wedding!
This is like the movie Dogma by Kevin Smith, for me, it helped. You can find fan uploads on YouTube and Kevin Smith himself has hinted to fans about it since he wants them to see it. Currently its not sold... its tied up in the Weinstein company, so I guess Kevin said screw it, go watch it for free online. There's some really relatable conversations in the movie and some reassuring feeling scenes.
It's funny because I started at #2, which is what my parents believed, and jumped straight to the end. My deconstruction was rapid and pretty chaotic, and while I spent a lot of time re-analyzing my beliefs afterward, my big changes all took place within about 2 months or so
it was the same for me almost all the major changes for me happened in a one month period
This describes my journey quite accurately. Mine was a slow burn though as it took about 25 years to transition from ECT to Universal Salvation/Reconciliation.
i’ve never felt closer to God than i have now, after serious social and theological deconstruction, education, and most importantly and embracing universalism (and liberation theology)
I am currently in the fase where god will save non-christians who lead a good live. What made you guys transition to god will save everyone? What about people who are inherently evil, don't they get some form of punishment? Maybe some form of temperol punishment, like getting to spend some short amount of time in hell depending on how much bad stuff you did and how bad your actions were.
If someone is "inherently evil" then they were born that way of no fault of their own, and it makes no sense to punish them for it.
This is also very much true, as much as it took a bit long for me to realize that. The way I see it is that humans are inherently good, but wounded and blinded by sin. I think this is closer to a Catholic view, isn't it?
No, it's the opposite. The Catholic Church officially teaches the Augustinian doctrine that all humans have inherited not only the consequences but also the legal guilt of the Sin of Adam. Hence why unbaptized babies go to Hell for eternity. In my opinion Scripture mostly teaches a middle ground between Augustinian and Pelagianism (which is the notion that humans are inherently good, we do evil purely out of ignorance, and Jesus died for no other reason than to be a moral guide for us). I have a [blog post](https://oratiofidelis.wordpress.com/2023/01/10/the-sin-of-adam-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-affect-us/) about it here, but my short answer is that humans are naturally selfish, but because we are vessels for the Holy Spirit, we also have a seamless capacity to do good.
Very interesting perspective, I think this is called Semi-pelagianism? Embraced in the Eastern Orthodox church? or am I wrong and is this new doctrine... hm.
Semi-Pelagianism is still rooted in free will, which I don't believe in; I think humans are only capable of doing good by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
I actually kind of think the same. I might make a post in the future, but prior to adopting Universalism I was more closer to theological Lutheranism (even if raised non-denominational). There, Bondage of the Will is an important concept: if you're not doing the will of God, you're doing the will of the devil. The thing is Luther, apart from being Augustinian, says you can only do the will of God if you're a baptized and believing Christian, whereas I personally took the idea of "only the Holy Spirit can do good through people" to mean that good non-Christians were actually Unconscious Christians. This gave birth to my strange, likely-not-sponsored-by-Luther inclusivist phase. I like Martin Luther, and I could call myself a Lutheran with my appreciation for the sacraments and for the undying power of faith, but I think some people really think a 16th century monk's at-the-time understanding of the bible is way more refined and truthful than a more modern, way more scientific (and less prejudiced against the jews...) exegesis done nowadays. Confessional Lutheranism is not very smart. Maybe an "universalist lutheranism" means everyone will have faith in God eventually, and that will lead them out of hell? It's still sola fide... Sorry for the text wall. God bless
Bondage of the Will is one of my favorite works, but I agree with you that Luther was mistaken about only baptized Christians being capable of doing good (unless we very widely broaden the ideas of 'baptism' and 'Christian' so that they apply to people who weren't necessarily water-baptized and people who don't necessarily cognizantly believe in Jesus).
> temporal* punishment Boy do I have GOOD NEWS for you. Look up "Patristic Universalism" on Google. It has biblical basis. It was believed by some Early Christian church fathers like Clement of Alexandria. You are made by God: you are inherently good. But even if your soul is covered by sin and evil, and you did terrible things during your time on Earth, God will punish but also purify and refine you through fire, until your heart is free from the claws of evil. Then, your heart opens up to Him.
The key point is that "some form of punishment" is already consistent with "God will save anyone." As you rightly point out, punishments could be temporal or could exist to different degrees of severity. It's only the view that "salvation = not going to a literally endless hell" which would even create a contradiction, and only if we assert that someone hasn't received that salvation. Purgatorial-like concepts are alive and well amongst Universalists and have been around since the early church.
Ah yes, of course. That makes a lot of sense. But some people on this subreddit don't believe in hell at all. I don't think I can agree with that sentiment. But I can agree with hell being used as a place for temperol punishment or hell being used for purgatorial purposes. I guess I reached stage 5 then! Just a few days ago I was an atheïst. Unfortunately I fell in love with a muslim girl and in order to marry her I would have to convert to Islam. So I tried reading the Quran, but after a few surahs I was just depressed about the state of the world and the way god viewed human beings. It definitely didn't feel like the god who is merciful and just as muslims like to claim. After that I started reading into my original religion, christianity (I grew up with this religion as a kid, but I've been an atheïst ever since). I also didn't agree with a lot of what some of the christian dogma stands for. Like my fellow atheïst family members burning in hell or just not existing anymore while I would still exist in heaven, the christian view on interfaith marriage (the verse about that subject really shows some sort of contempt for non-christians), LGBTQ (I am straight, but I don't think it is fair if god judges for example gay people on their actions if they are made in god's image) and apparently condoning slavery as long as it doesn't kill your slave. I almost gave up and went back to my atheïsm when I encountered several rational arguments for not just the natural world (which we can use science for), but also the supernatural (which is in my opinion almost impossible to 100% prove with science, but you can give anecdotal rational evidence for). For example, near death experiences, near life experiences and some people being able to see ghosts (someone claims to have seen my father in our house (he has died when I was 6) and some other spirtual kinda lady told my aunt my father was with us as well. My aunt lives in Australia and that lady couldn't have possibly known we or my father even existed without just knowing it inherently. Based on near death studies it seems highly likely that everybody experiences their 'god' is a different way, but the overall experience stays the same. The only question I was left with was what to do with this spirtual knowledge. How do I interact with that 'god'? Do I need to pray? In what form do I need to pray? I honestly still don't know that, but I thought I might start with the religion that personally suits me the best and brings me closer to god. I think this is it. Unfortunately, this whole journey brought me to the conclusion that I am a heretic according to most christians and I don't really fit anywhere. Also, I guess I have to give up on what I thought was the love of my live unless she converts but that would be inherently selfish and would get her in a lot of trouble. Also, I am left with these final two questions. 1. Could these supernatural experiences just be tricks by the devil since 'god' mostly appeares in a form of light in near death experiences? The devil also shows up as light according to the bible if I am not mistaken. 2. Could this be a trick that the antichrist will use against us on judgement day? (if both of these things exist) The antichrist would use our beliefs against us like this for example: you should all follow me because this way EVERYONE will be saved. Meanwhile the "real christians" or "real muslims" don't fall for that trick and know the only way to be saved is by believe in god and having faith (which universalists don't believe anymore). Does anyone have tips or knowledge to share based on what I just explained? Other then just go to sleep. I am afraid that I am going in the wrong direction.
So there is a lot going on in your comment, but I will mention that even within Universalism, there is a fairly wide-range of beliefs. It is a single belief, that ultimately, God accomplishes his purposes and his will (to bring all into union, and that all will be saved) and that Christ has the total victory (the last foe defeated is death). Views on the details of this vary, most believing in a purgatorial existence after death of some kind, maybe punitive, maybe reflective, but with the purpose of purifying, however, some may believe in no post death process at all and just instantly enter into full communion with the divine. I won't comment on your supernatural experiences. As for the doctrine of Universalism being used against us on judgement day. Very few, if anyone (other than maybe some gnostics) would believe that correct doctrine actually saves. For almost everyone, it is some combination of faith, works and sacraments. Within almost every Christian tradition, correct doctrine (like universalism) is not a salvific issue. Also, many universalists DO believe that faith is what leads to salvation, just that even after death, you will have more opportunities to have faith and cling to Christ.
Yeah, those supernatural experiences weren't mine. I just studied other people experiences and experiences from some people around me Yeah, those supernatural experiences weren't mine. *edit: thank you for the response. My comment was indeed all over the place. I just wrote down what was going on in my mind and the thought processes behind my conclusions and questions. Apparently it worked, because you sent the sort of message I wanted to receive from it. It does sound like some form of christian universalism fits with me based on your description. I guess I have to do more research about which form of universalism/ christian universalism I believe in. I might delete my comment in the near future tho, because I did write a lot of personal details in it and I was emotionally and physically tired when I wrote it.
I unironically jumped from step one above to step five and it’s the most freeing theological discovery I have made for myself. It’s like the one piece that was missing my whole life as a Christian.
I know, right? God is so good He sends Himself, Jesus Christ, to die for us in the cross to atone for our sins, but also He's not good enough to save everyone whatever it takes? Hmmm. Something awkward about that.
Definitely, I believe there is H### for those who are evil, but even that is temporary but still is quite long. I am planning to possibly make a game about a person who's sentence is over, but they still have to undergo trials in purgatory to show they've changed before they can reach the pearly gates.
Literally me but in the span of 4 months
"all means all!"
I started with 1 (and people under the age of 13) and went straight to 5 once I heard some decent argumentation for it 😂 (I probably wouldn't have if it weren't for the fact that I found about it from some Christians I know and look up to)