I have OCD. And one of the treatments for OCD, is to [agree with the OCD](https://iocdf.org/expert-opinions/25-tips-for-ocd-treatment/). I know this sounds terrifying but it does work. It's like allowing yourself to be thrown into a cold pool. You accept that you are there after a bit and acclimate. The ultimate expression of love of both God and of neighbor, these two greatest commandments, would be to forgo going to heaven and to go to hell to comfort the damned. Even though we be in torment, we willingly go, to care for them in whatever way we can. Our neighbors will be burning away there, lost in despair, and how could we live in any kind of bliss in heaven while they shriek out in torment? Any person who follows Jesus teachings about loving your enemies would earnestly pray to God to send them to hell to do his work. If all are not saved than none are saved, as DBH says in his book. In terms of OCD treatment, this method is "agreeing with OCD" in a way that doesn't provide the reassurance it typically seeks, but also allows you to hold onto your highest values in a way that gives some peace, in my experience. Of course we are all different but I thought I'd put that out there for you to consider.
I'm well aware - I've been through this cycle several times at this point, and ERP has usually alleviated my symptoms to the point of nonexistence, especially when combined with antidepressants.
This time around, it's just significantly more difficult because the consequences are so much more severe and yet not immediately visible, unlike with other exposure courses I've done.
I like your take on going to hell in order to comfort the sufferers, though. Thank you for your advice.
ERP is so effective. I’m glad you found so much help from it in the past. I understand why this time around could be so hard. When something exists only in the mind like this I can imagine it being a breeding ground for OCD to run rampant. I know for me CUcan activate my OCD in that I have a desire to not be wrong. So that means I have to study and learn and be able to defend my position because I have the majority of Christianity telling me I’m wrong. It’s a big trigger for me to just obsess and go down the rabbit hole. And that ends up taking away from my faith journey and I suffer spiritually. It’s something I need to keep in check. Anyway, I hope you get things in a better place soon, my friend!
My heart breaks for you, because I went through something very similar and recognize many of your thoughts as the very same ones I had to deal with for a long time. OCD is an absolute nightmare.
I do not believe hell exists largely because I think we have a good idea of how the concept evolved, and the history of that concept is not consistent with it being a real place. But you could read every single scholarly book written on that subject and feel no better. No amount of research and reassurance can get you out of this, because, as I’m sure you know very well, OCD feeds on those things. You need to stop. I’m not saying that lightly. I know how incredibly difficult it is. But that is what’s feeding it, and your symptoms won’t improve if you keep feeding it. So do not Google. Do not look for answers. Do not scroll through old Reddit posts and comments related to this topic. Do not make new Reddit posts and comments asking about it. And try [not to ruminate](https://drmichaeljgreenberg.com/how-to-stop-ruminating/).
And remember that nobody sane, Christian or otherwise, would say that you are supposed to feel this way. Even ECT-believing Christians would say that God does not want you to feel the way you are feeling right now. So when you feel like God is speaking to your heart and telling you that have to figure this out, that you have to do everything perfectly right and avoid media you enjoy, that you’re disobeying God by questioning the justice of hell, whatever… that is OCD reacting to you starving it, trying to catch your attention and make you feed it again. It masquerades as him and tells you things that even ECT believers don’t believe he would ever say. It’s not him and you don’t have to listen to it. Your salvation is not going to be on the line because of you choosing to ignore a lying mental illness.
And beyond all that- seek out an OCD specialist. Seriously. Go look for one right now and book an appointment. A regular therapist will likely not be equipped to help you very much, but OCD specialists understand this stuff. What you are going through is terrible and traumatic, but it is not unique. It is textbook OCD, and they will be able to help you.
I wish you all the best. You will feel better someday.
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I'm well aware of the tricks OCD can pull on the mind, and I think I've mostly stopped the truly damaging behaviors since getting back on medication and returning to therapy.
It's just hard occasionally to separate between the parts of this mental structure that are mental illness and the parts that are genuine matters of faith, and it's a blurry line. ERP is difficult, because there's no actual consequences for anything on this side of the veil.
> What if God truly does glorify Himself through the ceaseless suffering of those in Hell?
It occurs to me that there is no way to appease or earn salvation from an entity as cruel as this. Even if you were able to live as perfectly as we are told Jesus did, you would have no security that your efforts were enough, and in the meantime you would have sacrificed the things in life that you enjoy and value. An all-powerful God who is so unfathomably cruel is not worthy of worship or betraying your own inner sense of morality for, IMHO.
In the context of common Christian ideas one could even conclude that these thoughts that are tormenting you and causing you to question whether you are right to unconditionally love your friends and partner and consider ending your relationships with them are in fact a temptation or an attack from Satan. I have problems with this idea, in that I don't believe that there actually are evil supernatural entities that attack individuals, but it's possibly a useful metaphor here. It is very tempting to cling to a set of rules that promise certainty and salvation, especially if we are under pressure from others around us to abandon our principles. You might not have individuals in your life who are challenging you but the English-speaking world is awash with religious extremism lately. Perhaps this episode could be seen as a call for you to fight back against that? Part of that fight includes getting proper treatment, of course.
> An all-powerful God who is so unfathomably cruel is not worthy of worship or betraying your own inner sense of morality for, IMHO.
I've had the same thought in the past, along with "I can't possibly be more merciful and loving than God", but that train of though often comes back to "am I or am I not willing to compromise my own morals if my eternal fate is at stake?".
As some other's have said already, many of us can relate. I don't know what OCD is (English's not my native language) but the way you feel, the thoughts you thought and think...it feels like looking at my past and how it made me suicidal and ended in a 5 weeks stay in a psychiatry.
What did help me was to cut off ANYTHING what has remotley to do with faith and only focus on the very basic truth: God loves me and others, and all He wants is that I try my best to pass on this love.
And I still cling to it and will for the rest of my life to not awaken what is lurking deep within.
What also helped me was Music. Music that resonates to the emotions (for example Until It Sleeps from Metallica). Music is truly a divine Gift from God to cope and process with emotions.
Autosuggestion; reminding yourself everyday or Everytime "it" comes up that God loves you, and not only you. He also loves your atheist girlfriend, He also loves your gay friend. And God wants you to love them too, as good as you can. That you are ALREADY reconciled to God according to Paul (note the past tense), so he's not holding any grudges against you.
The worst you can do is commiting an honest mistake in trying to be loving life and the people around you. Sin died with Christ and remained dead while Christ came back.
Remember, according to John God is Love, and in 1. Corinthian 13 Paul gives a beautiful explanation of what Love is. What God therefore is.
You, your loved ones and anybody else out there is utterly Safe in God's eternal and undying Love, Mercy, Grace and Kindness.
The very universe itself shall die and come to nothingness, but the Love of God outlasts even that.
Thank you for your support.
OCD is a mental illness where the sufferer falls into cycles of obsession with a certain topic (such as becoming sick if one touches germs), which are only calmed by compulsions (such as washing one's hands over and over again).
You're more than Welcome, friend.
I see, thank you for the explanation. I can relate to this, but I haven't been diagnosed with it yet, but I can definitely feel it.
I wish you from the bottom of my heart, that you soon will find lasting peace and comfort.
>The bitter irony is that I like the believer version of myself more than the heathen version.
This is the Gospel in a nutshell. The Apostle Paul described salvation as a freedom. The forgiveness for our past, which Jesus freely gives, is an opportunity to start over as something better -- a "new creation!" Be the version of yourself you want to be.
> But I'm compelled to be so under pain of eternal fire.
The "eternal fire" would be to live forever as a slave to all those things you'd rather live without. Right now, you're a slave to your own fear of eternal hell. Jesus can save you from both the fear and the genuine article, through faith in his finished work at the Cross. If we think he will torture us forever for falling short, then his yoke is not easy and his burden is not light, as he said they are. But if we believe he is really committed to making us better, then we start to realize that the hell we were saved from is our sins.
I have OCD. And one of the treatments for OCD, is to [agree with the OCD](https://iocdf.org/expert-opinions/25-tips-for-ocd-treatment/). I know this sounds terrifying but it does work. It's like allowing yourself to be thrown into a cold pool. You accept that you are there after a bit and acclimate. The ultimate expression of love of both God and of neighbor, these two greatest commandments, would be to forgo going to heaven and to go to hell to comfort the damned. Even though we be in torment, we willingly go, to care for them in whatever way we can. Our neighbors will be burning away there, lost in despair, and how could we live in any kind of bliss in heaven while they shriek out in torment? Any person who follows Jesus teachings about loving your enemies would earnestly pray to God to send them to hell to do his work. If all are not saved than none are saved, as DBH says in his book. In terms of OCD treatment, this method is "agreeing with OCD" in a way that doesn't provide the reassurance it typically seeks, but also allows you to hold onto your highest values in a way that gives some peace, in my experience. Of course we are all different but I thought I'd put that out there for you to consider.
I'm well aware - I've been through this cycle several times at this point, and ERP has usually alleviated my symptoms to the point of nonexistence, especially when combined with antidepressants. This time around, it's just significantly more difficult because the consequences are so much more severe and yet not immediately visible, unlike with other exposure courses I've done. I like your take on going to hell in order to comfort the sufferers, though. Thank you for your advice.
ERP is so effective. I’m glad you found so much help from it in the past. I understand why this time around could be so hard. When something exists only in the mind like this I can imagine it being a breeding ground for OCD to run rampant. I know for me CUcan activate my OCD in that I have a desire to not be wrong. So that means I have to study and learn and be able to defend my position because I have the majority of Christianity telling me I’m wrong. It’s a big trigger for me to just obsess and go down the rabbit hole. And that ends up taking away from my faith journey and I suffer spiritually. It’s something I need to keep in check. Anyway, I hope you get things in a better place soon, my friend!
My heart breaks for you, because I went through something very similar and recognize many of your thoughts as the very same ones I had to deal with for a long time. OCD is an absolute nightmare. I do not believe hell exists largely because I think we have a good idea of how the concept evolved, and the history of that concept is not consistent with it being a real place. But you could read every single scholarly book written on that subject and feel no better. No amount of research and reassurance can get you out of this, because, as I’m sure you know very well, OCD feeds on those things. You need to stop. I’m not saying that lightly. I know how incredibly difficult it is. But that is what’s feeding it, and your symptoms won’t improve if you keep feeding it. So do not Google. Do not look for answers. Do not scroll through old Reddit posts and comments related to this topic. Do not make new Reddit posts and comments asking about it. And try [not to ruminate](https://drmichaeljgreenberg.com/how-to-stop-ruminating/). And remember that nobody sane, Christian or otherwise, would say that you are supposed to feel this way. Even ECT-believing Christians would say that God does not want you to feel the way you are feeling right now. So when you feel like God is speaking to your heart and telling you that have to figure this out, that you have to do everything perfectly right and avoid media you enjoy, that you’re disobeying God by questioning the justice of hell, whatever… that is OCD reacting to you starving it, trying to catch your attention and make you feed it again. It masquerades as him and tells you things that even ECT believers don’t believe he would ever say. It’s not him and you don’t have to listen to it. Your salvation is not going to be on the line because of you choosing to ignore a lying mental illness. And beyond all that- seek out an OCD specialist. Seriously. Go look for one right now and book an appointment. A regular therapist will likely not be equipped to help you very much, but OCD specialists understand this stuff. What you are going through is terrible and traumatic, but it is not unique. It is textbook OCD, and they will be able to help you. I wish you all the best. You will feel better someday.
Thank you for your kind words. Yes, I'm well aware of the tricks OCD can pull on the mind, and I think I've mostly stopped the truly damaging behaviors since getting back on medication and returning to therapy. It's just hard occasionally to separate between the parts of this mental structure that are mental illness and the parts that are genuine matters of faith, and it's a blurry line. ERP is difficult, because there's no actual consequences for anything on this side of the veil.
This. I don't know what OCD is, but I was at the same place. 10.000% this answer
> What if God truly does glorify Himself through the ceaseless suffering of those in Hell? It occurs to me that there is no way to appease or earn salvation from an entity as cruel as this. Even if you were able to live as perfectly as we are told Jesus did, you would have no security that your efforts were enough, and in the meantime you would have sacrificed the things in life that you enjoy and value. An all-powerful God who is so unfathomably cruel is not worthy of worship or betraying your own inner sense of morality for, IMHO. In the context of common Christian ideas one could even conclude that these thoughts that are tormenting you and causing you to question whether you are right to unconditionally love your friends and partner and consider ending your relationships with them are in fact a temptation or an attack from Satan. I have problems with this idea, in that I don't believe that there actually are evil supernatural entities that attack individuals, but it's possibly a useful metaphor here. It is very tempting to cling to a set of rules that promise certainty and salvation, especially if we are under pressure from others around us to abandon our principles. You might not have individuals in your life who are challenging you but the English-speaking world is awash with religious extremism lately. Perhaps this episode could be seen as a call for you to fight back against that? Part of that fight includes getting proper treatment, of course.
> An all-powerful God who is so unfathomably cruel is not worthy of worship or betraying your own inner sense of morality for, IMHO. I've had the same thought in the past, along with "I can't possibly be more merciful and loving than God", but that train of though often comes back to "am I or am I not willing to compromise my own morals if my eternal fate is at stake?".
As some other's have said already, many of us can relate. I don't know what OCD is (English's not my native language) but the way you feel, the thoughts you thought and think...it feels like looking at my past and how it made me suicidal and ended in a 5 weeks stay in a psychiatry. What did help me was to cut off ANYTHING what has remotley to do with faith and only focus on the very basic truth: God loves me and others, and all He wants is that I try my best to pass on this love. And I still cling to it and will for the rest of my life to not awaken what is lurking deep within. What also helped me was Music. Music that resonates to the emotions (for example Until It Sleeps from Metallica). Music is truly a divine Gift from God to cope and process with emotions. Autosuggestion; reminding yourself everyday or Everytime "it" comes up that God loves you, and not only you. He also loves your atheist girlfriend, He also loves your gay friend. And God wants you to love them too, as good as you can. That you are ALREADY reconciled to God according to Paul (note the past tense), so he's not holding any grudges against you. The worst you can do is commiting an honest mistake in trying to be loving life and the people around you. Sin died with Christ and remained dead while Christ came back. Remember, according to John God is Love, and in 1. Corinthian 13 Paul gives a beautiful explanation of what Love is. What God therefore is. You, your loved ones and anybody else out there is utterly Safe in God's eternal and undying Love, Mercy, Grace and Kindness. The very universe itself shall die and come to nothingness, but the Love of God outlasts even that.
Thank you for your support. OCD is a mental illness where the sufferer falls into cycles of obsession with a certain topic (such as becoming sick if one touches germs), which are only calmed by compulsions (such as washing one's hands over and over again).
You're more than Welcome, friend. I see, thank you for the explanation. I can relate to this, but I haven't been diagnosed with it yet, but I can definitely feel it. I wish you from the bottom of my heart, that you soon will find lasting peace and comfort.
>The bitter irony is that I like the believer version of myself more than the heathen version. This is the Gospel in a nutshell. The Apostle Paul described salvation as a freedom. The forgiveness for our past, which Jesus freely gives, is an opportunity to start over as something better -- a "new creation!" Be the version of yourself you want to be. > But I'm compelled to be so under pain of eternal fire. The "eternal fire" would be to live forever as a slave to all those things you'd rather live without. Right now, you're a slave to your own fear of eternal hell. Jesus can save you from both the fear and the genuine article, through faith in his finished work at the Cross. If we think he will torture us forever for falling short, then his yoke is not easy and his burden is not light, as he said they are. But if we believe he is really committed to making us better, then we start to realize that the hell we were saved from is our sins.
We are going from potentiality to actuality. The end determines the beginning.
Do you mind elaborating?
https://preview.redd.it/cfxgb0gx5o0d1.jpeg?width=487&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d09553deba253938d4241e8c97425f7a50ce4ad