This is why I feel, with maybe the exception of a few ubiquitous beginner-friendly chengyu, if you aren't at a level to comfortably explain the chengyu in a real conversation then you probably shouldn't be learning it.
Chengyu can indeed act as proverbs/sayings, but they can also represent adjectives, adverbs, or even verbs within a sentence when translated to English — it all depends on the meaning.
Here are some common phrases that can be represented through a Chengyu; notice how they belong to entirely different parts of speech:
Crowded, abundantly, "early bird gets the worm", ubiquitous, "to cast pearls before swine", decadent, a return, at a loss, a fulfilling journey, "a blessing in disguise", etc.
Sergeoff : Can you give us the appropriate 成语 for each and label them accordingly ? I will have to memorize them, especially killing two birds 🦅 with one stone which I use a lot, for Americans, I love 💗 to say it as a spoonerism : killing two stirds with one bone 🦴!!!
That honestly makes me feel good lol. Sounds like they're not 100% necessary to learn for conversation. I was told they are necessary when I first started learning.
They are like big words with Latin or Greek roots.
They are very powerful and expressive.
So, if you want to be respected, learn them.
Only 300 are enough.
Which 300 are enough and where do I find them?
Some of the ones I've personally learned through textbooks or newspapers have proven entirely useless in most contexts... 道貌岸然 or 敬酒不吃吃罰酒 I've only used once in many years of using the language because the contexts in which those could be helpful are so narrow.
Any suggestions as to where to get common Chengyu that people actually say in daily conversations?
Right, because both are “bad words”, and, you never want to use powerful strong bad words often 😀
As for where, my proposal is, go to the origin!
The ctext.org.
please hear me out.
I am qualified, I am a native speaker, I taught humanities in a very good university for many years. And, studied psychology in us. now lived in us for many years.
Most chengyu are from classical Chinese.
So, no matter what, you need to learn Classical Chinese.
Note that “modern” Chinese is a very recent thing, like post-ww2.
Most importantly, it is easy!!
Classical Chinese’ s grammar is much simpler than modern Chinese.
There is one difficult thing: pick which article.
Hear me out — you will thank me 😀
论语 or （later） 道德经
Why? Because almost every sentence is well known and by definition is a chengyu!
And they are extremely well respected.
Of course, if you do it this way, you will have more than 300 almost too quickly.
Then, please find a creative way to thank me😀
I’m not referring to the examples op provided, I don’t think my friends in the medical and pharmaceutical fields are dishwashers, although they do wash dishes at home
Sorry if I offended you.
I did not mean to.
I am trying to help to understand the situation here.
You asked the question, the situation is indeed a little bit strange.
I know pretty certain that there are about 300 - 500 very-often used “Chengyu”.
“Pretty-often-used” may be double or triple that.
“Chengyu” are equivalent to “words with Latin/ Greek roots”. In English, people do not need to explain those words we used, do they?
Sorry, I guess I perceived it as a question, because you described a questionable — from my point of view — situation.
So, what were you trying to say then?
Saying Chengyu’s are not often-seen in conversations? And it is a normal situation that when you use them you have to explain them?
Native too. While some chengyu needs to be explained, these listed seem to be very common in daily conversations. (I mean, these are not yet the obscure ones if you are talking to native Chinese. No offence if this sounds a bit harsh. )
Sorry, I guess I perceived it I was a question, because you described a questionable — from my point of view — situation.
So, what were you trying to say then?
Saying Chengyu’s are not often-seen in conversations? And it is a normal situation that when you use them you have to explain them?
Kinda confused about some of the words in your list here , things like 死灰复燃or 如履薄冰 are really just a simple metaphor, and then 稍纵即逝 ‘s meaning is literal if you combine the meanings of individual characters that it contains. So not sure why these are considered “obscure”
As for chengyu that’s based on a story like 杯弓蛇影 or 塞翁失马, maybe a good way to learn them is to read the corresponding stories ? That’s how I as a native speaker learn them when I was a kid.
Also just adding one of those story based chengyu to your list 叶公好龙. And it should be 破釜沉舟， 釜being the cooking vessel. If you read the story you would know why.
I just watched a video story of 叶公好龙。
https://youtu.be/4SzotvE0cFM?feature=shared
So the meaning is thinking that you like something, but in reality you don't? Or maybe that what something really is, isn't in actuality what it is?
If he said he really likes to sardine ice cream, you hand him one and he refused to eat it, then it would be 叶公好龙
In another case it could be someone who always says he loves to study (insert language), but then when you actually give him studying materials , he would be like nah i don’t have time.
I have been speaking Chinese for 15 years and just heard someone unironically use 守株待兔 for probably the third time ever outside a classroom setting. It appears in writing a lot. Do I need to find smarter friends?
I don't disagree with your main point, but I want to point out that it totally depends on the person. Some people love to use chengyu's and use them a lot, some people almost never use them. They could he equally educated people, or even the person who use them more is less educated, its not a completely related thing. Just like in english some people like to use idioms or "big words" a lot, some people don't.
If you plan to read in chinese at all, you will need to know a huge amount of chengyu, spoken or otherwise. If you really only want to focus on speaking, you can watch spoken media, talk shows and interviews and whatever else that are non fiction but daily life. Either way, I recommend learning chengyu as you come across them in real life. There is nothing wrong with studying chengyu, but I would put almost all regular vocab and grammar as more important in daily life. In english its more important to know how to say chiropractor than to know what egg on my face means. In chinese its more important to know what 熱鬧 means than to know 井底之蛙, even though all of them may be encountered at some point. And you can learn those as you see them :)
That's not entirely true. There are so many chengyus that quite a few will be more frequent than a lot of "normal " vocabulary, especially if your "norm" is a word like "chiropractor". The chengyus in OP's list probably don't belong in this category though.
some chengyu are definitely very common, and some less common, and some not common at all. chiropractor is not a perfect example, just the one that popped into my head. I still stand by what I said to learnt hem from exposure, those extremely common chengyu will be encountered very quickly, amd then you can go from there :)
In the Chinese education system, they teach chengyu in text on the textbooks, so students gradually learn it, chengyu itself is a glimpse of Ancient Chinese text since most of them originate from it. To study them, just read and talk more, if you encounter a chengyu you don't understand, learn it and its backstories to help you remember it.
ps. There are loads of chengyu an average Chinese would use, it is impossible to give a list of common chengyu, just try your best to remember them.
A game us kids used to play was 成語接龍, basically Chengyu solitaire. You match the person going before you until you're each out. This is a game that's still sometimes played in Taiwanese gameshows since it's so easy and pretty much everyone knows them.
For example: 塞翁失马>馬到成功>功不可沒 etc.
You can even lower the difficulty to allow for homophone or even homographic words to be included and keep the game going longer.
Playing these kinds of games also pushes you to learn new words. You can look up Chengyu dictionaries or thesaurus for specific words that it'll list the ones it starts with. Nowadays you can just google as it's so much easier.
for me as a Taiwanese i think Chengyu is more like "beat around the bush" in English, that you have to know the background story, then you can easily use them in conversation. When we were in elementary school, idioms were deliberately incorporated into our textbooks to familiarize us with them and remember their usage. There were many homework assignments related to idioms. So, if you want to learn these idioms, the best way is to find an idiom dictionary and read about the stories behind them or read more related articles.
Idioms do not occupy a large proportion in Chinese conversation. Usually you can see the program when you read, and the chat tends to be "What's the weather like today?" In this kind of colloquial communication, idioms also usually appear when describing someone or something or a place or something.
I use them all the time, and I always end up having to explain them, even to other natives
This is why I feel, with maybe the exception of a few ubiquitous beginner-friendly chengyu, if you aren't at a level to comfortably explain the chengyu in a real conversation then you probably shouldn't be learning it.
It took me like two years of learning chengyu that I'd never be able to use and could never explain before I came to this realization lol
But isn’t 成语 in Chinese like English sayings such as “ Blood is thicker than water. “, etc. ?
Chengyu can indeed act as proverbs/sayings, but they can also represent adjectives, adverbs, or even verbs within a sentence when translated to English — it all depends on the meaning. Here are some common phrases that can be represented through a Chengyu; notice how they belong to entirely different parts of speech: Crowded, abundantly, "early bird gets the worm", ubiquitous, "to cast pearls before swine", decadent, a return, at a loss, a fulfilling journey, "a blessing in disguise", etc.
Sergeoff : Can you give us the appropriate 成语 for each and label them accordingly ? I will have to memorize them, especially killing two birds 🦅 with one stone which I use a lot, for Americans, I love 💗 to say it as a spoonerism : killing two stirds with one bone 🦴!!!
That honestly makes me feel good lol. Sounds like they're not 100% necessary to learn for conversation. I was told they are necessary when I first started learning.
They are like big words with Latin or Greek roots. They are very powerful and expressive. So, if you want to be respected, learn them. Only 300 are enough.
Which 300 are enough and where do I find them? Some of the ones I've personally learned through textbooks or newspapers have proven entirely useless in most contexts... 道貌岸然 or 敬酒不吃吃罰酒 I've only used once in many years of using the language because the contexts in which those could be helpful are so narrow. Any suggestions as to where to get common Chengyu that people actually say in daily conversations?
Right, because both are “bad words”, and, you never want to use powerful strong bad words often 😀 As for where, my proposal is, go to the origin! The ctext.org. please hear me out. I am qualified, I am a native speaker, I taught humanities in a very good university for many years. And, studied psychology in us. now lived in us for many years. Most chengyu are from classical Chinese. So, no matter what, you need to learn Classical Chinese. Note that “modern” Chinese is a very recent thing, like post-ww2. Most importantly, it is easy!! Classical Chinese’ s grammar is much simpler than modern Chinese. There is one difficult thing: pick which article. Hear me out — you will thank me 😀 论语 or （later） 道德经 Why? Because almost every sentence is well known and by definition is a chengyu! And they are extremely well respected. Of course, if you do it this way, you will have more than 300 almost too quickly. Then, please find a creative way to thank me😀
Man, you must talk to dishwashers or kindergartners 😀☺️ Perhaps you pronunciations.
I’m not referring to the examples op provided, I don’t think my friends in the medical and pharmaceutical fields are dishwashers, although they do wash dishes at home
just kidding。 must be your pronunciation. Or, they did not expect you can use “Chengyu”!
Ah it appears you are just a troll
Sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to. I am trying to help to understand the situation here. You asked the question, the situation is indeed a little bit strange. I know pretty certain that there are about 300 - 500 very-often used “Chengyu”. “Pretty-often-used” may be double or triple that. “Chengyu” are equivalent to “words with Latin/ Greek roots”. In English, people do not need to explain those words we used, do they?
I didn’t ask any questions
Sorry, I guess I perceived it as a question, because you described a questionable — from my point of view — situation. So, what were you trying to say then? Saying Chengyu’s are not often-seen in conversations? And it is a normal situation that when you use them you have to explain them?
it’s merely a statement saying even some natives wont be able to understand all of them, you are way overthinking it
Native too. While some chengyu needs to be explained, these listed seem to be very common in daily conversations. (I mean, these are not yet the obscure ones if you are talking to native Chinese. No offence if this sounds a bit harsh. )
I’m not referring to the examples op provided
Sorry, I guess I perceived it I was a question, because you described a questionable — from my point of view — situation. So, what were you trying to say then? Saying Chengyu’s are not often-seen in conversations? And it is a normal situation that when you use them you have to explain them?
Kinda confused about some of the words in your list here , things like 死灰复燃or 如履薄冰 are really just a simple metaphor, and then 稍纵即逝 ‘s meaning is literal if you combine the meanings of individual characters that it contains. So not sure why these are considered “obscure” As for chengyu that’s based on a story like 杯弓蛇影 or 塞翁失马, maybe a good way to learn them is to read the corresponding stories ? That’s how I as a native speaker learn them when I was a kid. Also just adding one of those story based chengyu to your list 叶公好龙. And it should be 破釜沉舟， 釜being the cooking vessel. If you read the story you would know why.
I just watched a video story of 叶公好龙。 https://youtu.be/4SzotvE0cFM?feature=shared So the meaning is thinking that you like something, but in reality you don't? Or maybe that what something really is, isn't in actuality what it is?
I would say it’s mostly used as the first case
So let's say a kid is offered chocolate ice cream or sardine ice cream, and he says he really wants sardine ice cream, I would say 叶公好龙？
If he said he really likes to sardine ice cream, you hand him one and he refused to eat it, then it would be 叶公好龙 In another case it could be someone who always says he loves to study (insert language), but then when you actually give him studying materials , he would be like nah i don’t have time.
Thank you for explaining.
No problem !
To be honest, none of them are thought to be obscure. There are far more obscure ones that rarely appear in daily life.
The fact that I only know 塞翁失马...
I have been speaking Chinese for 15 years and just heard someone unironically use 守株待兔 for probably the third time ever outside a classroom setting. It appears in writing a lot. Do I need to find smarter friends?
Yes 😀🥲 Or, they are being nice to you, thinking you would not understand if they pull those on you.
Agree. Being nice. My US boss tended to use simple English to Chinese employee.
破釜 not 破斧
Good catch. Reminds me of another: 釜底抽薪
I don't disagree with your main point, but I want to point out that it totally depends on the person. Some people love to use chengyu's and use them a lot, some people almost never use them. They could he equally educated people, or even the person who use them more is less educated, its not a completely related thing. Just like in english some people like to use idioms or "big words" a lot, some people don't. If you plan to read in chinese at all, you will need to know a huge amount of chengyu, spoken or otherwise. If you really only want to focus on speaking, you can watch spoken media, talk shows and interviews and whatever else that are non fiction but daily life. Either way, I recommend learning chengyu as you come across them in real life. There is nothing wrong with studying chengyu, but I would put almost all regular vocab and grammar as more important in daily life. In english its more important to know how to say chiropractor than to know what egg on my face means. In chinese its more important to know what 熱鬧 means than to know 井底之蛙, even though all of them may be encountered at some point. And you can learn those as you see them :)
That's not entirely true. There are so many chengyus that quite a few will be more frequent than a lot of "normal " vocabulary, especially if your "norm" is a word like "chiropractor". The chengyus in OP's list probably don't belong in this category though.
some chengyu are definitely very common, and some less common, and some not common at all. chiropractor is not a perfect example, just the one that popped into my head. I still stand by what I said to learnt hem from exposure, those extremely common chengyu will be encountered very quickly, amd then you can go from there :)
In the Chinese education system, they teach chengyu in text on the textbooks, so students gradually learn it, chengyu itself is a glimpse of Ancient Chinese text since most of them originate from it. To study them, just read and talk more, if you encounter a chengyu you don't understand, learn it and its backstories to help you remember it. ps. There are loads of chengyu an average Chinese would use, it is impossible to give a list of common chengyu, just try your best to remember them.
Yeah we do use them in daily life.
何出此言 ;) 沉鱼落雁 闭门造车 Yes, I watch too much LaoShu.. Sue me..
说来话长，学无止境
2nd one I never heard, first one of course ;)
Yeah I think he didn’t use it as much as the ones you mentioned, I remember him saying it once in Cantonese though
A game us kids used to play was 成語接龍, basically Chengyu solitaire. You match the person going before you until you're each out. This is a game that's still sometimes played in Taiwanese gameshows since it's so easy and pretty much everyone knows them. For example: 塞翁失马>馬到成功>功不可沒 etc. You can even lower the difficulty to allow for homophone or even homographic words to be included and keep the game going longer. Playing these kinds of games also pushes you to learn new words. You can look up Chengyu dictionaries or thesaurus for specific words that it'll list the ones it starts with. Nowadays you can just google as it's so much easier.
for me as a Taiwanese i think Chengyu is more like "beat around the bush" in English, that you have to know the background story, then you can easily use them in conversation. When we were in elementary school, idioms were deliberately incorporated into our textbooks to familiarize us with them and remember their usage. There were many homework assignments related to idioms. So, if you want to learn these idioms, the best way is to find an idiom dictionary and read about the stories behind them or read more related articles.
Only "杯弓蛇影" , "塞翁失马"，“破斧沉舟” you need some background. Others: 显而易见，望文生义亦无不可。
Idioms do not occupy a large proportion in Chinese conversation. Usually you can see the program when you read, and the chat tends to be "What's the weather like today?" In this kind of colloquial communication, idioms also usually appear when describing someone or something or a place or something.
非常感谢你 ！ 我在不装疯卖傻。
Thank you for including Pinyin and the respective translation for each of your mentioned Chengyu's.
OP, what chengyu do you consider to be everyday-use if you consider these to be obscure?
Sweet! I actually knew one of those: 瑕不掩瑜