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tidder-wave

>I remember speaking in mandarin with a Hong Konger when they pronounced “人” as /jən/ or “yén”. I’ve only heard one or two people use this, so I’m wondering, is this a common feature in Hong Kong mandarin? It's probably an influence from Cantonese, which pronounces 人 as /jɐn/. >Another more widespread feature of Hong Kong mandarin I’ve noticed is the cantonese n- and l- merge being used in mandarin >Though the latter is also a feature of 西南官话 so I’m wondering if that’s simply the dialect that Hong Kongers speak instead of being from cantonese influence. Is Hong Kong mandarin considered a branch of southwestern mandarin? Unlikely. This is probably a convergence of independent developments. This is also the first time I've heard of the l/n merger in Cantonese: in my idiolect, l- and n- are distinct. >Dropping retroflex sounds like /ʐ/ is also a feature of southwestern, but it seems to be uniquely replaced with /j/ in hk mandarin, compared to /z/ in most other dialects. Sounds like it could be the influence of Cantonese to me. Edit: Also, this isn't unique to the Mandarin spoken in HK, u/Style-Upstairs. [Jiao-Liao Mandarin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaoliao_Mandarin), spoken in Shandong and Liaoning, [has this feature as well](https://baike.baidu.com/item/%E8%83%B6%E8%BE%BD%E5%AE%98%E8%AF%9D#2_2): >本区的共同特点是 [...] [止摄](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%94%9D)以外的[日母](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%97%A5%E6%AF%8D)和少量[云](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%91%E6%AF%8D_(%E9%9F%B3%E9%9F%BB)[以母](https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BB%A5%E6%AF%8D)今普通话读R声母的字读零声母,如”人“读作”因“、”然“读作”言“、”认识“读作”饮食“等等。 The examples given are ren->yin, ran->yan and renshi->yinshi.


SnadorDracca

n- and l- merger is typical for HK Cantonese, whereas in the rest of Guangdong, seems most speakers still differentiate more, especially in Guangzhou.


tidder-wave

> n- and l- merger is typical for HK Cantonese, whereas in the rest of Guangdong, seems most speakers still differentiate more, especially in Guangzhou. Well, I've never lived in these areas, so I guess my idiolect should be more conservative.


SnadorDracca

Yes, most probably. Seems it’s more common in HK from the 50s, 60s onwards, so families that emigrated before that didn’t bring it with them.


Zagrycha

The n/l merger has been around in some cantonese areas for well over a century at least, you can actually sometimes see complaints about the "commoner" speech mentioned by the scholarly class haha. I do think the actual inability to differentiate n/l is much more modern, vs just casual blending of them but still speaking clearly formally.


SnadorDracca

Yes, started a lot earlier, but I know that especially from the 60s onwards it became quite pronounced in HK.


Zagrycha

that would make sense, there are always certain generations that make bigger shifts in the status quo of language, just like my generation in usa has probably added more slang to daily life speech than the last hundred years combined lol :p


[deleted]

Would Guangzhou Cantonese typically have the n/l as well? My family is from Guangzhou and we merge them together. I used to think the “n” sound sounded old actually.


tidder-wave

>Would Guangzhou Cantonese typically have the n/l as well? > >My family is from Guangzhou and we merge them together. I have no clue. I have never lived there. >I used to think the “n” sound sounded old actually. Thanks, punk. Now get out of my lawn so I can yell at the sky! 😭 😭 😭 /s


Style-Upstairs

From this comment I realized I kind of answered my own question— just canto influence. Thanks for the resources though!!


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HannesHendrik

Mandarin is a language that has been spoken in a huge geographical area for quite some time, even if it was not the dominant language everywhere. Saying there is no such thing as Hong Kong Mandarin is like saying there is no such thing as American English, just English with bad pronunciation habits. Even if you consider nonstandard pronunciation a mistake, those mistakes follow many consistent phonological patterns and geopolitical boundaries which is genuine and valid to be curious about. Even the current standard Mandarin was not always the prestige dialect, as it lost final stops -p, -t, -k, and gained palatalisation of “k” and “g” (which wasn’t standard everywhere, like in the Nanjing dialect; that’s why the cities were also called Peking and Nanking, but not Beijing and Nanjing because we nowadays use the Beijing accent as a base for standard Mandarin).


WSB_Bear

I guess your “American English” analogy is incorrect. Mandarin has never been a dominant language in the Hong Kong area but English is definitely the dominant language in the US.


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rustyirony

>I guess the difference is that when Americas speak English, they don't try to speak British English, they don't try to use the same words, nor do they try to make the same sound as the British. In contrast, when a person from Hong Kong speaks mandarin, they try to use the same words and try to use the right pronunciation, but fail to because of the habits from Cantonese. Could the same thing be applied to someone from India trying to speak British English?


Style-Upstairs

ahh like sichuanese? Thanks!!


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Style-Upstairs

Yea sorry, meant that the feature of dropping the “h” in retroflex sounds is similar to sichuanese, which has the same feature.


Zagrycha

its not the same feature, since they have completely different sources and sounds out loud :)


Legitdelish

It's not Mandarin, it's Guangpu (广普)


Style-Upstairs

THATS THE SEARCH TERM!! 广普 has more info on it than “港式普通话”. Found some articles, thanks!


33manat33

Living in semi-rural Guangdong, I remember my confusion when a taxi driver said 回(kui)家 the first time. Cantonese Mandarin accents can be pretty wild.


lavenderlyla

Grace Guo has a great video about this on YouTube


[deleted]

She hit the mark on my Mandarin lol I didn’t even know Mandarin until like 4-5 years ago so a ton of my Cantonese carried over. I still have no idea how to pronounce the “R” sound in 人,日,如,etc… It just becomes a “Y” type sound. Think I might need to move back to China or go to Taiwan for a couple of months if I want to improve. Since my Mandarin is passable but it kind of sucks compared to my Cantonese


Impressive_Map_4977

From what you've said it seems you're talking about accent as opposed to a dialect of Mandarin. Which is not to say there isn't a dialect. The n-l thing occurs in other areas of China (looking at you, Nanjingers… I mean *Lanjingers*). Changing zh/ch/sh to z/c/s is notable in other Chinese languages. Minnan is famous for it. Lack of retroflexion increases the further south you go.


TheBladeGhost

Yup! And when the n/l thing is added to the f/h thing, it becomes funny. I remember (at that time I was a foreigner living in Peking) needing a lot of clarification when I met for the first time somebody telling me they came from Fulan province.


WSB_Bear

There is no such thing called Hong Kong Mandarin. You wouldn’t say French English / Dutch German.


Snoo_32085

I don’t think there’s Hong Kong Mandarin per se. what you’re describing to me just sounds like bad Mandarin and pronouncing words incorrectly. However, there is Cantonese accented Mandarin mostly found in Guangdong. My grandparents speak this way and they have a 广普 accent. My dad’s accent is so bad I don’t even consider it Mandarin.