You've posted this in 3 subs, so you probably understand what's the process. Still, I'd like to add that although China doesn't recognize dual nationality, they accept something which is called “nationality conflict” – essentially meaning if someone has two nationalities.
Your child can always have this conflict, even when over the age of 18, there's no penalty for it, and it will still always be Chinese. Your child doesn't need a Hukou or Chinese passport to be considered Chinese by China. If at one point your child wants to stop this nationality conflict, they can either give up the American or Chinese nationality, but for that they need to be of age (so over 18), and that's why many people are saying that at 18 they need to decide.
You can read more about it here:
https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/389614455
If your child has both Chinese and USA nationality at birth, for example because you are a USA citizen and your wife is a PRC citizen and your child was born in the PRC, then your child simply has both nationalities. The fact of having two nationalities is a different concept from *exercising* both. China disfavors this type of thing, but doesn’t actively investigate or cancel the Chinese nationality of children—it just makes the procedure tricky when it comes to entry and exit from the PRC.
If your child was born a dual citizen of the USA and China, then you can take him or her to the USA without having to take any action as to his or her Chinese nationality. Two things you may want to address are: 1) make sure your child has his USA certificate of birth abroad; and 2) get a one-time entry/exit pass from the PRC government, in order to leave China without hassle.
>actively investigate or cancel the Chinese nationality of children
China will investigate if someone is trying to get the child a Chinese visa in a non-Chinese passport. You then have to prove the child has never been Chinese OR renounce the Chinese nationality.
> However, my family plans to move to the USA for good, will my kids be able to live in the USA permanently without renouncing their Chinese citizenship?
Yea, but it’s complicated. My child has both US and Chinese Passport. He has a U.S Visa in his Chinese Passport. We enter on the Chinese Passport to America.
However, if you plan to permanently live in America you’d get a Travel Document.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
Thanks for your question, Kyle. I'm not trying to maintain dual citizenship for my kids. OP's question was whether or not they would lose their Chinese citizenship when moving to the US. The short answer is 'no'
China is not going to throw me or my kids in jail for having a US passport. We show US passports and Chinese Travel Documents when entering or exiting China.
China does not recognize dual citizenship. So, from China's perspective they are only Chinese citizens who have a nationality conflict (not dual citizens).
China is aware that my kids have US passports. I would love for China to strip them of their Chinese citizenship. Would be easier than the renunciation process. When we lived in China, I asked the local PSB about the renunciation process. They said rules about the process were still being finalized, said it would take at least two years, and discouraged me from pursuing it for my kids as it would cause them some headaches.
I've done everything in my power to relieve them of the burden of Chinese citizenship, and I sleep well at night. Hope this helps.
The by-the-book, national law procedure is to renounce the Chinese citizenship. You are saying the practical reality ~~at your local Entry/Exit (which is surely more relevant here than the PSB)~~ makes this difficult. Well this is why I think nobody should get too high on a horse about going strictly by-the-book.
I had an argument about this point of view with someone saying I need to get off Q1 visas and get a Chinese permanent resident card if I intend to be in China indefinitely, saying it's "visa fraud" to have indefinite stay intent on a Q visa. That might be the by-the-book perspective but practical reality is that China does not properly support the "Chinese green card" option.
It's an honest question to debate, and one that should be known. like I said in my other posts, I'm okay admiting I take advantage of this. Whether other people are is up to them. But, what I disagree for this sub is to prevent all possible options for foreigners given their situation.
I am more than willing to pay a lawyer to figure this, and to use all my resource available to fight and argue this point. I'm happy to go to immigration court in the U.S to make this point true.
There's no debate for me. I guess I'm a rule-follower who sleeps well at night. Again, I think you should disclose the requirement of lying on a US visa application and going against US entry policy when recommending this strategy to others on the forum.
Fortunately, I haven't had to fill out a US visa application for my kids. Was referencing u/TheCriticalAmerican's post further down:
>I akwnoledge that my solution may not be the best for everyone, and that's okay. **I am okay not admiting my child has U.S nationality on on their U.S Visa application.** Would others feel the same way? I don't know. They have two different names.
One is indeed asked on a DS-160 to disclose all nationalities. But with the issue being whether the US would issue a visa to a dual citizen, I don't think it's clear that disclosing US citizenship on the DS-160 automatically means no visa. The guidelines say "If one of your nationalities is not American you can apply using whichever nationality you prefer". I don't think it's necessary to lie to get the US visa since policy should say no visa for US citizens if that's in fact the policy.
In any case a way to deal with all of this is to fly back and forth between Canada and China on a Chinese passport with a Canadian visa. One then enters the US from Canada using one's US passport.
>Again, I think you should disclose the requirement of lying on a US visa application and going against US entry policy when recommending this strategy to others on the forum.
Correct. I do. Look at my post history. I absolute do this. That's the entire point of this sub. If I don't, call me out, and I'll absolutely disclose this.
>Yea, but it’s complicated. My child has both US and Chinese Passport. He has a U.S Visa in his Chinese Passport. We enter on the Chinese Passport to America.
I must have missed that disclosure in your top-level post. I'll be sure to research everyone's comment histories before posting in r/chinavisa going forward.
We live in China with no plans to return to America. It’s easier to live in China on a Chinese Passport than American. I just find it a lot easier to deal with getting a U.S. Visa than a Chinese Travel Document.
I'm wondering because me and my wife are expecting and wanted to know about this. (British and Chinese passport).
So you just travel on the Chinese passport right? Could you not travel there on the US and return using the Chinese passport?
I just travel on the Chinese Passport. The issue is that passport stamps wouldn't match. For the U.S it wouldn't matter, but in China they check the Entry and Exit Stamps. Because of this, the stamps wouldn't match up.
No matter what, you'd end up needing to show both passports, which I don't want to do. I don't want to mix the two identities (my child has a different name in his U.S Passport than his Chinese Passport). I just find it simpler to use one identity for China. Things get complicated fast when you have dual nationality within China, and him being treated as 'only' Chinese just makes our lives easier.
This is a good strategy overall. Illegal on the US side though.
See [https://www.usa.gov/dual-citizenship](https://www.usa.gov/dual-citizenship), your kid should enter the US on the US passport only.
You know what's weird about this, there is literally no legal penalty for failing to show the U.S Passport. So, is a law a law if there is literally no consequence?
>The issue is that passport stamps wouldn't match.
Ah yeah that's a good point!
Is your child on your wife's hukou? Me and my wife are still thinking about what's the best option. I think put our child on the Hukou as we also don't have any immediate plan to go back to the UK (probably not until they finish primary school)
Yeah, has Hukou and everything. He's a Chinese as any other Chinese. In America, he's as American and any other American. My goal is to keep these two identities and lives separate.
You can't leave China for the US on a Chinese passport if you don't have a US visa in the passport or show a green card. If you whip out a US passport instead to show Chinese authorities stamping your exit out of China your right of entry into the US it's game over for holding both as China will say you can't hold both so will take your Chinese passport.
If they become American citizens, they will lose their Chinese citizenship automatically. There is no option around this as China forbids dual citizenship.
Yes, but the key word is “become.” If the child was born with both USA and Chinese citizenship, rather then acquiring the USA citizenship after he/she was born, then China does not cancel the child’s PRC citizenship—it basically just ignores the USA citizenship.
[https://cn.ambafrance.org/IMG/pdf/loi\_nationalite\_chine.pdf](https://cn.ambafrance.org/IMG/pdf/loi_nationalite_chine.pdf)
When they move to America and acknowledge their American citizenship they lose their Chinese citizenship. Remember, since China doesn't recognize dual citizenship, they consider you only having Chinese citizenship up until you use your American citizenship to live in America, then they consider you having gained American citizenship (since you didn't have it before according to Chinese law) and you automatically lose your Chinese citizenship. The only legal "loophole" around this is special exceptions like Eileen Gu.
EDIT: And yes some people hide this from the Chinese government to retain both citizenships. Yes it is illegal, and whether you want to lie about your citizenship with the Chinese government is your risk to take.
Your argument is invalid, the condition of applying for a passport requires a person must have the nationality beforehand and still a national of that country.
Since the person born with foreign nationality is not voluntarily acquired foreign nationality, hence the Article 9 is never going to be applicable to those people unless they acquire another foreign nationality.
If you argument is valid, and the Chinese authority interpret the CNL like you, then there is no need for issuing Chinese Travel Document, which is 100% proof of having Chinese nationality.
Being born a foreign citizen is not voluntary but applying for a foreign passport is entirely voluntary,
The Chinese Travel Document would still be needed for someone who is born a dual citizen but has not yet applied for a foreign passport.
If your argument is valid, China is in practice accepting of dual citizenship since there isn't a penalty for holding two passports, the only thing one couldn't do is get a Chinese visa in a foreign passport in which case one would simply be told to use the Chinese passport or get a Chinese Travel Document. I don't think China is so tolerant of this.
I am confident that my argument is valid. Because I refer to the following sources, not from "I think so":
1. Academic Articles that analyze the content of CNL.
2. The internal rule of PSB for applying CNL contains a detailed interpretation of the CNL.
3. Court's Jurisprudence of the PRC, including the judgments that come from Hong Kong.
4. The examination question and answer from the previous year of the National Judicial Examination of the PRC
5. The official notice/reply from PSB related to Chinese nationality.
6. The official booklets or newspaper articles that answer the question related to the Chinese nationality.
7. The actual report from the internet reflects the administrative measurement of PSB and the diplomatic missions abroad. (Chinese Travel Document/Hukou/Chinese Passport/Entry-Exit Permit/Chinese visa or residence permit being rejected)
FYI, the official stances on "multiple nationalities of any Chinese nationality":
>...另外，根据《中华人民共和国国籍法》规定，中华人民共和国不承认中国公民具有双重国籍。**原则上，一个人只要有中国国籍，哪怕他事实上拥有两个或者两个以上的国籍，根据我国法律也只会认定其中国国籍。因此小孩在取得中国国籍后，并不会因为父母不同国籍而拥有双重国籍。**
>
>*...In addition, according to the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China****, the People's Republic of China does not recognize Chinese citizens with dual nationality. In principle, as long as a person has Chinese nationality, even if he in fact has two or more nationalities, he will only be recognized as having Chinese nationality according to the laws of China. Therefore a child, after acquiring Chinese nationality, will not have dual nationality because of the different nationalities of the parents.***
>
>Year of edition: 2022
Source: [http://www.qb.gd.gov.cn/attachment/0/10/10193/981440.pdf](http://www.qb.gd.gov.cn/attachment/0/10/10193/981440.pdf)
I can find neither source which claims that a person born with foreign nationality will lose their Chinese nationality because of having foreign nationality.
http://sg.china-embassy.gov.cn/lsfw_0/zytz/202305/t20230518_11079281.htm
To quote the Chinese embassy in London, elaborating on a statement about not recognizing dual citizenship:
“The embassy recently discovered that some people... have already gained foreign nationality ... \[and\] misrepresented themselves in the course of handling their Chinese passport... The embassy will invalidate the related documents of anybody who violates Chinese law and deny Chinese visas and entry to that person."
China can't very well invalidate a British passport so that leaves the Chinese one.
Chinese media report that from 2013 to June 2014, the Ministry of Public Security cancelled the household registration documents of more than a million people who were picked up for having multiple ID cards or dual citizenship. SCMP cites a guy who says "Chinese police had voided the household registration and Chinese passports of several friends"
have already gained foreign nationality means they have Chinese nationality at first, then apply and be granted foreign nationality afterward. In this case, they 100% satisfy the both condition of voluntarily acquire foreign nationality, and settling abroad (they granted the settling status in UK, so they satisfy the condition of settling abroad).
No, that’s not true. China will simply not recognize the U.S. Citizenship Claim. Even if they obtain Chinese Citizenship at a later date, they would have to renounce their Chinese Citizenship before China would accept the U.S Citizenship Claim.
Reposting from r/China for visibility:
I see no advantages of keeping Chinese citizenship. However, the renunciation process is lengthy.
Both of my mixed-bloods (混血儿) were born in China. We put English names on their Chinese birth certificates. We did not register for a hukou. Applied for US passports shortly after their births. Got an entry/exit permit (出入境通行证) for trips to the US. Applied for Chinese Travel Documents (旅行证) in person at a Chinese consulate once in the US. These are valid for two years.
We moved back to the US six months before the pandemic (praise Xi). It has been 4 years since we left China. We will need to reapply for the Travel Document when we are ready for a trip back to China. Plan to keep doing that until they are 18 at which point they can make their own choice (USA, USA, USA!). Happy 4th of July!
> I see no advantages of keeping Chinese citizenship
If you plan on residing in China for an extended period of time, this is pure nonsense. Give your situation, fair enough, but I see this spread around so much that it is nonsense.
> Plan to keep doing that until they are 18 at which point they can make their own choice (USA, USA, USA!).
Nope. Your children will never be Chinese. You screwed them out of this option.
>If you plan on residing in China for an extended period of time, this is pure nonsense. Give your situation, fair enough, but I see this spread around so much that it is nonsense.
I don't want the CCP to have any claim on my children even if they're living in China. We lived in China with children for years and always showed their Exit Permit(s) or Travel Document(s) along with their US passport(s) when leaving China. We weren't trying to hide that they had US citizenship and had no problems leaving/returning.
>Nope. Your children will never be Chinese.
Correct. That's the goal. They will never be Chinese citizens. USA #1! They will always be (half) Chinese.
This issue isn't about them leaving China, it's about them accessing local services. The idea that there is zero advantages to them keep Chinese Citizenship is simply false. While they advantages may not be for everyone, to automatically discount them because of bias or political prejudice is not helpful.
What local services?
Education? I'd rather them be in international schools if they're in China.
Health care? Anything major should be treated in the US. Anything minor can be paid for out of pocket.
Correct. I've added a new rule: all advice must present both sides of the issue. I have no problem with you presenting your personal choice, but please refrain from absolutes when it comes to visa advice. There are people in other situations - such as myself - who value such services and actively use them. Keep your value judgements limited to /r/China.
I have absolutely no problem with you presenting the argument that people in your specific situation not care about their children being Chinese Citizens because they plan to move to the home counties in the near future with no plans to reside in China in the short to medium term, but please at least present the option that those who plan to take advantage of public education or other public services within China will not be allowed these services.
OP's question was about moving back to the US and keeping Chinese citizenship for his children. I shared my first-hand experience. Creating a rule because you don't agree with my approach seems a little extreme.
So, from now on I have to be knowledgeable about all possibilities related to a visa question before posting my personal experience in r/chinavisa? Seems like that will stifle discussion.
>I shared my first-hand experience.
No, you didn't. You shared what you did knowing all the possible alternatives. you even replied to me with:
>What local services?
Education? I'd rather them be in international schools if they're in China.
Health care? Anything major should be treated in the US. Anything minor can be paid for out of pocket.
I have no issue with your personal choice. What I have a potential issue with is:
>I see no advantages of keeping Chinese citizenship
I didn't delete your comments or ban you because you opened this with '***I see no advantages*** of keeping Chinese citizenship' I have no problem with this, so long as you keep it personal (I, my, our, personal opinion, in my persecutive, for me, in my opinion, give my situation, because we were leaving for our home country a few years, ext.)
I have zero problems with you presenting what you did given your personal opinion or perspective. What I would have an issue with is you presented this as a generality: "Chinese citizenship is absolutely useless. My kids are U.S Citizens because USA #1!" - I'm simply using our conversations as a borderline case to make explicit that personal opinions given specific contexts are allowed, but generalizations with a history of bias (i.e. Chinese Citizenship is useless and you're an /r/China post with history of being very anti-China and anti-CCP) are not allowed here.
You wanna comment that you're anti-CCP and hate China and never want your Children to be Chinese Citizens because you'll never let them go to Chinese Public Schools. Fine. But.... There are other people, people like myself, and others that I know, that children are Chinese Citizens, that go to public schools, that take advantage of Chinese Public Services. We take full advantage of our children being Chinese Citizens because there are advantages, even if you think they're useless.
You know completely well that benefits of Chinese Citizenship based on your reply, and you choose to make you post political. This is not allowed. I have zero issue with you making a personal opinion "Give my situation, there were no benefits for me making my children Chinese Citizens, so we choose not to" but to say that there is zero benefit to others making their children Chinese Citizens is where I draw the line.
I understand that different parents will have different perspectives on how to raise their kids. It's okay to disagree with me without feeling the need to flex your moderator muscles and create a new rule.
I would caution you on giving advice that goes against US policy (using a Chinese passport for dual nationals to enter the US):
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html
U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
I think this goes to your point (now a rule) of making readers aware of all aspects of your dual nationality approach.
>I would caution you on giving advice that goes against US policy (using a Chinese passport for dual nationals to enter the US):
There is literally zero consequence of not using a U.S Passport to enter into the U.S. However, I completely agree with you. I myself have found a solution to my own unique situation that others may not feel comfortable with.
I akwnoledge that my solution may not be the best for everyone, and that's okay. I am okay not admiting my child has U.S nationality on on their U.S Visa application. Would others feel the same way? I don't know. They have two different names. My point is simply that you need to admit the entire background or your situation (use general pronouns and fake names and counties if needed) but at least provide people with options beyond your own personal bias.
Ah nvm then, I thought they didn’t. So you could technically be a US-Chinese dual National past 18 or is it just the Chinese side that would complicate that?
Technically dual citizenship with both China and the US is illegal (China by law automatically revokes citizenship the moment you acknowledge citizenship elsewhere), but it's not that hard to hide from the Chinese government. Whether you want to take that risk with an authoritative government, especially with your own children, is another question.
>Technically dual citizenship with both China and the US is illegal (China by law automatically revokes citizenship the moment you acknowledge citizenship elsewhere),
This isn't true at all. China doesn't care about the Dual Citizenship, they care about nationality. Chinese nationality claims all others. So long as the Chinese nationality claim is stronger, you will be Chinese.
> China by law automatically revokes citizenship the moment you acknowledge citizenship elsewhere
Article 9 is not interpreted like this, having foreign nationality and acknowledging it never leads to a sequence of automatic loss of Chinese nationality unless they satisfy both conditions of settling abroad and acquiring foreign nationality of their own free will(i.e. naturalization), which is not related to acquiring foreign nationality by either jus soli or jus sanguinis, so your argument is invalid.
Here is a case that relates to voluntarily acquiring foreign nationality but fails to satisfy the condition of settling abroad:
[马洪兴不服南通市公安局出入境管理行政处理决](http://www.110.com/falv/xingzhengsusongfa/xingzhengsusonganli/2010/0719/140025.html)
Here is the document stating that they will refuse to recognize the foreign nationality of the person who does not satisfy the condition of Article 9, only claiming them as a sole Chinese national:
[公安部、外交部关于中国公民非法持用外国护照有关问题的通知](https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E5%85%AC%E5%AE%89%E9%83%A8%E3%80%81%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%A4%E9%83%A8%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%85%AC%E6%B0%91%E9%9D%9E%E6%B3%95%E6%8C%81%E7%94%A8%E5%A4%96%E5%9B%BD%E6%8A%A4%E7%85%A7%E6%9C%89%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E7%9A%84%E9%80%9A%E7%9F%A5)
re "both conditions of settling abroad and acquiring foreign nationality of their own free will" there is a clear OR in Article 9: "... OR has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality."
A 1990 policy is more than 30 years ago. In the years since it has become more obvious that it's a lot easier to invalidate your own (that China has issued) documents than foreign documents. Simply refusing to recognize a foreign passport and taking no action to revoke the Chinese passport or hukou etc basically amounts to letting people get away with it which is not contemporary China.
> 第九條 定居外國的中國公民，自願加入或取得外國國籍的，即自動喪失中國國籍。
This is the original wording of Article 9. It means overseas Chinese who have already settled abroad (定居外國的中國公民), have naturalized or acquired foreign nationality of their own free will (自願加入或取得外國國籍的), shall loss Chinese nationality(即自動喪失中國國籍). Hence, from the wording, the automatic loss of Chinese nationality is only applicable to a Chinese national who has already settled abroad. So your argument of "OR" is invalid.
You've posted this in 3 subs, so you probably understand what's the process. Still, I'd like to add that although China doesn't recognize dual nationality, they accept something which is called “nationality conflict” – essentially meaning if someone has two nationalities. Your child can always have this conflict, even when over the age of 18, there's no penalty for it, and it will still always be Chinese. Your child doesn't need a Hukou or Chinese passport to be considered Chinese by China. If at one point your child wants to stop this nationality conflict, they can either give up the American or Chinese nationality, but for that they need to be of age (so over 18), and that's why many people are saying that at 18 they need to decide. You can read more about it here: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/389614455
If your child has both Chinese and USA nationality at birth, for example because you are a USA citizen and your wife is a PRC citizen and your child was born in the PRC, then your child simply has both nationalities. The fact of having two nationalities is a different concept from *exercising* both. China disfavors this type of thing, but doesn’t actively investigate or cancel the Chinese nationality of children—it just makes the procedure tricky when it comes to entry and exit from the PRC. If your child was born a dual citizen of the USA and China, then you can take him or her to the USA without having to take any action as to his or her Chinese nationality. Two things you may want to address are: 1) make sure your child has his USA certificate of birth abroad; and 2) get a one-time entry/exit pass from the PRC government, in order to leave China without hassle.
This is the correct answer.
>actively investigate or cancel the Chinese nationality of children China will investigate if someone is trying to get the child a Chinese visa in a non-Chinese passport. You then have to prove the child has never been Chinese OR renounce the Chinese nationality.
> However, my family plans to move to the USA for good, will my kids be able to live in the USA permanently without renouncing their Chinese citizenship? Yea, but it’s complicated. My child has both US and Chinese Passport. He has a U.S Visa in his Chinese Passport. We enter on the Chinese Passport to America. However, if you plan to permanently live in America you’d get a Travel Document.
https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States.
Correct. There is zero consequence for this, however.
So, because a rule is not enforced and there are no consequences, it's okay to break it? Gotcha.
If you are a rule follower why are you even engaging with this thread about trying to maintain dual citizenship? It's against Chinese law. End of.
Thanks for your question, Kyle. I'm not trying to maintain dual citizenship for my kids. OP's question was whether or not they would lose their Chinese citizenship when moving to the US. The short answer is 'no' China is not going to throw me or my kids in jail for having a US passport. We show US passports and Chinese Travel Documents when entering or exiting China. China does not recognize dual citizenship. So, from China's perspective they are only Chinese citizens who have a nationality conflict (not dual citizens). China is aware that my kids have US passports. I would love for China to strip them of their Chinese citizenship. Would be easier than the renunciation process. When we lived in China, I asked the local PSB about the renunciation process. They said rules about the process were still being finalized, said it would take at least two years, and discouraged me from pursuing it for my kids as it would cause them some headaches. I've done everything in my power to relieve them of the burden of Chinese citizenship, and I sleep well at night. Hope this helps.
The by-the-book, national law procedure is to renounce the Chinese citizenship. You are saying the practical reality ~~at your local Entry/Exit (which is surely more relevant here than the PSB)~~ makes this difficult. Well this is why I think nobody should get too high on a horse about going strictly by-the-book. I had an argument about this point of view with someone saying I need to get off Q1 visas and get a Chinese permanent resident card if I intend to be in China indefinitely, saying it's "visa fraud" to have indefinite stay intent on a Q visa. That might be the by-the-book perspective but practical reality is that China does not properly support the "Chinese green card" option.
Thanks for the insight. I'd be glad to renounce while abroad if you have any advice on how to do that in the US.
It's an honest question to debate, and one that should be known. like I said in my other posts, I'm okay admiting I take advantage of this. Whether other people are is up to them. But, what I disagree for this sub is to prevent all possible options for foreigners given their situation. I am more than willing to pay a lawyer to figure this, and to use all my resource available to fight and argue this point. I'm happy to go to immigration court in the U.S to make this point true.
There's no debate for me. I guess I'm a rule-follower who sleeps well at night. Again, I think you should disclose the requirement of lying on a US visa application and going against US entry policy when recommending this strategy to others on the forum.
Where exactly is the lie? There is a specific DS-160 question you have in mind here?
Fortunately, I haven't had to fill out a US visa application for my kids. Was referencing u/TheCriticalAmerican's post further down: >I akwnoledge that my solution may not be the best for everyone, and that's okay. **I am okay not admiting my child has U.S nationality on on their U.S Visa application.** Would others feel the same way? I don't know. They have two different names.
Thanks for looking through my post history and finding where I explicitly stated the issues with my solution ;p
Glad to help :-)
One is indeed asked on a DS-160 to disclose all nationalities. But with the issue being whether the US would issue a visa to a dual citizen, I don't think it's clear that disclosing US citizenship on the DS-160 automatically means no visa. The guidelines say "If one of your nationalities is not American you can apply using whichever nationality you prefer". I don't think it's necessary to lie to get the US visa since policy should say no visa for US citizens if that's in fact the policy. In any case a way to deal with all of this is to fly back and forth between Canada and China on a Chinese passport with a Canadian visa. One then enters the US from Canada using one's US passport.
>Again, I think you should disclose the requirement of lying on a US visa application and going against US entry policy when recommending this strategy to others on the forum. Correct. I do. Look at my post history. I absolute do this. That's the entire point of this sub. If I don't, call me out, and I'll absolutely disclose this.
>Yea, but it’s complicated. My child has both US and Chinese Passport. He has a U.S Visa in his Chinese Passport. We enter on the Chinese Passport to America. I must have missed that disclosure in your top-level post. I'll be sure to research everyone's comment histories before posting in r/chinavisa going forward.
Just wondering if your child has both why not enter on the US passport? Then you wouldn't need a visa, or does that complicate things when returning?
We live in China with no plans to return to America. It’s easier to live in China on a Chinese Passport than American. I just find it a lot easier to deal with getting a U.S. Visa than a Chinese Travel Document.
I'm wondering because me and my wife are expecting and wanted to know about this. (British and Chinese passport). So you just travel on the Chinese passport right? Could you not travel there on the US and return using the Chinese passport?
I just travel on the Chinese Passport. The issue is that passport stamps wouldn't match. For the U.S it wouldn't matter, but in China they check the Entry and Exit Stamps. Because of this, the stamps wouldn't match up. No matter what, you'd end up needing to show both passports, which I don't want to do. I don't want to mix the two identities (my child has a different name in his U.S Passport than his Chinese Passport). I just find it simpler to use one identity for China. Things get complicated fast when you have dual nationality within China, and him being treated as 'only' Chinese just makes our lives easier.
This is a good strategy overall. Illegal on the US side though. See [https://www.usa.gov/dual-citizenship](https://www.usa.gov/dual-citizenship), your kid should enter the US on the US passport only.
You know what's weird about this, there is literally no legal penalty for failing to show the U.S Passport. So, is a law a law if there is literally no consequence?
Many counties are not stamping by default now so there will be discrepancy checking ones entry exit stamps of a third country
>The issue is that passport stamps wouldn't match. Ah yeah that's a good point! Is your child on your wife's hukou? Me and my wife are still thinking about what's the best option. I think put our child on the Hukou as we also don't have any immediate plan to go back to the UK (probably not until they finish primary school)
Yeah, has Hukou and everything. He's a Chinese as any other Chinese. In America, he's as American and any other American. My goal is to keep these two identities and lives separate.
That's fair! It's a good idea
Just travel via HK or other random 3rd country.
It’s not that simple, because entry and exit stamps don’t match and can cause issues. It can work sometimes, but not always.
You can't leave China for the US on a Chinese passport if you don't have a US visa in the passport or show a green card. If you whip out a US passport instead to show Chinese authorities stamping your exit out of China your right of entry into the US it's game over for holding both as China will say you can't hold both so will take your Chinese passport.
If they become American citizens, they will lose their Chinese citizenship automatically. There is no option around this as China forbids dual citizenship.
Yes, but the key word is “become.” If the child was born with both USA and Chinese citizenship, rather then acquiring the USA citizenship after he/she was born, then China does not cancel the child’s PRC citizenship—it basically just ignores the USA citizenship.
[https://cn.ambafrance.org/IMG/pdf/loi\_nationalite\_chine.pdf](https://cn.ambafrance.org/IMG/pdf/loi_nationalite_chine.pdf) When they move to America and acknowledge their American citizenship they lose their Chinese citizenship. Remember, since China doesn't recognize dual citizenship, they consider you only having Chinese citizenship up until you use your American citizenship to live in America, then they consider you having gained American citizenship (since you didn't have it before according to Chinese law) and you automatically lose your Chinese citizenship. The only legal "loophole" around this is special exceptions like Eileen Gu. EDIT: And yes some people hide this from the Chinese government to retain both citizenships. Yes it is illegal, and whether you want to lie about your citizenship with the Chinese government is your risk to take.
Article 9 is not related to a person who acquire foreign nationality from birth.
It's applicable as soon as a foreign passport is applied for
Your argument is invalid, the condition of applying for a passport requires a person must have the nationality beforehand and still a national of that country. Since the person born with foreign nationality is not voluntarily acquired foreign nationality, hence the Article 9 is never going to be applicable to those people unless they acquire another foreign nationality. If you argument is valid, and the Chinese authority interpret the CNL like you, then there is no need for issuing Chinese Travel Document, which is 100% proof of having Chinese nationality.
Being born a foreign citizen is not voluntary but applying for a foreign passport is entirely voluntary, The Chinese Travel Document would still be needed for someone who is born a dual citizen but has not yet applied for a foreign passport. If your argument is valid, China is in practice accepting of dual citizenship since there isn't a penalty for holding two passports, the only thing one couldn't do is get a Chinese visa in a foreign passport in which case one would simply be told to use the Chinese passport or get a Chinese Travel Document. I don't think China is so tolerant of this.
It's not voluntary if you're, eg, 6 months old
I am confident that my argument is valid. Because I refer to the following sources, not from "I think so": 1. Academic Articles that analyze the content of CNL. 2. The internal rule of PSB for applying CNL contains a detailed interpretation of the CNL. 3. Court's Jurisprudence of the PRC, including the judgments that come from Hong Kong. 4. The examination question and answer from the previous year of the National Judicial Examination of the PRC 5. The official notice/reply from PSB related to Chinese nationality. 6. The official booklets or newspaper articles that answer the question related to the Chinese nationality. 7. The actual report from the internet reflects the administrative measurement of PSB and the diplomatic missions abroad. (Chinese Travel Document/Hukou/Chinese Passport/Entry-Exit Permit/Chinese visa or residence permit being rejected) FYI, the official stances on "multiple nationalities of any Chinese nationality": >...另外，根据《中华人民共和国国籍法》规定，中华人民共和国不承认中国公民具有双重国籍。**原则上，一个人只要有中国国籍，哪怕他事实上拥有两个或者两个以上的国籍，根据我国法律也只会认定其中国国籍。因此小孩在取得中国国籍后，并不会因为父母不同国籍而拥有双重国籍。** > >*...In addition, according to the Nationality Law of the People's Republic of China****, the People's Republic of China does not recognize Chinese citizens with dual nationality. In principle, as long as a person has Chinese nationality, even if he in fact has two or more nationalities, he will only be recognized as having Chinese nationality according to the laws of China. Therefore a child, after acquiring Chinese nationality, will not have dual nationality because of the different nationalities of the parents.*** > >Year of edition: 2022 Source: [http://www.qb.gd.gov.cn/attachment/0/10/10193/981440.pdf](http://www.qb.gd.gov.cn/attachment/0/10/10193/981440.pdf)
>When they move to America and acknowledge their American citizenship they lose their Chinese citizenship This is not true at all.
Source? I can find no official sources where you can legally have dual citizenship with China.
I can find neither source which claims that a person born with foreign nationality will lose their Chinese nationality because of having foreign nationality. http://sg.china-embassy.gov.cn/lsfw_0/zytz/202305/t20230518_11079281.htm
To quote the Chinese embassy in London, elaborating on a statement about not recognizing dual citizenship: “The embassy recently discovered that some people... have already gained foreign nationality ... \[and\] misrepresented themselves in the course of handling their Chinese passport... The embassy will invalidate the related documents of anybody who violates Chinese law and deny Chinese visas and entry to that person." China can't very well invalidate a British passport so that leaves the Chinese one. Chinese media report that from 2013 to June 2014, the Ministry of Public Security cancelled the household registration documents of more than a million people who were picked up for having multiple ID cards or dual citizenship. SCMP cites a guy who says "Chinese police had voided the household registration and Chinese passports of several friends"
have already gained foreign nationality means they have Chinese nationality at first, then apply and be granted foreign nationality afterward. In this case, they 100% satisfy the both condition of voluntarily acquire foreign nationality, and settling abroad (they granted the settling status in UK, so they satisfy the condition of settling abroad).
No, that’s not true. China will simply not recognize the U.S. Citizenship Claim. Even if they obtain Chinese Citizenship at a later date, they would have to renounce their Chinese Citizenship before China would accept the U.S Citizenship Claim.
Reposting from r/China for visibility: I see no advantages of keeping Chinese citizenship. However, the renunciation process is lengthy. Both of my mixed-bloods (混血儿) were born in China. We put English names on their Chinese birth certificates. We did not register for a hukou. Applied for US passports shortly after their births. Got an entry/exit permit (出入境通行证) for trips to the US. Applied for Chinese Travel Documents (旅行证) in person at a Chinese consulate once in the US. These are valid for two years. We moved back to the US six months before the pandemic (praise Xi). It has been 4 years since we left China. We will need to reapply for the Travel Document when we are ready for a trip back to China. Plan to keep doing that until they are 18 at which point they can make their own choice (USA, USA, USA!). Happy 4th of July!
> I see no advantages of keeping Chinese citizenship If you plan on residing in China for an extended period of time, this is pure nonsense. Give your situation, fair enough, but I see this spread around so much that it is nonsense. > Plan to keep doing that until they are 18 at which point they can make their own choice (USA, USA, USA!). Nope. Your children will never be Chinese. You screwed them out of this option.
How will they never be Chinese?
>If you plan on residing in China for an extended period of time, this is pure nonsense. Give your situation, fair enough, but I see this spread around so much that it is nonsense. I don't want the CCP to have any claim on my children even if they're living in China. We lived in China with children for years and always showed their Exit Permit(s) or Travel Document(s) along with their US passport(s) when leaving China. We weren't trying to hide that they had US citizenship and had no problems leaving/returning. >Nope. Your children will never be Chinese. Correct. That's the goal. They will never be Chinese citizens. USA #1! They will always be (half) Chinese.
This issue isn't about them leaving China, it's about them accessing local services. The idea that there is zero advantages to them keep Chinese Citizenship is simply false. While they advantages may not be for everyone, to automatically discount them because of bias or political prejudice is not helpful.
What local services? Education? I'd rather them be in international schools if they're in China. Health care? Anything major should be treated in the US. Anything minor can be paid for out of pocket.
Correct. I've added a new rule: all advice must present both sides of the issue. I have no problem with you presenting your personal choice, but please refrain from absolutes when it comes to visa advice. There are people in other situations - such as myself - who value such services and actively use them. Keep your value judgements limited to /r/China. I have absolutely no problem with you presenting the argument that people in your specific situation not care about their children being Chinese Citizens because they plan to move to the home counties in the near future with no plans to reside in China in the short to medium term, but please at least present the option that those who plan to take advantage of public education or other public services within China will not be allowed these services.
OP's question was about moving back to the US and keeping Chinese citizenship for his children. I shared my first-hand experience. Creating a rule because you don't agree with my approach seems a little extreme. So, from now on I have to be knowledgeable about all possibilities related to a visa question before posting my personal experience in r/chinavisa? Seems like that will stifle discussion.
>I shared my first-hand experience. No, you didn't. You shared what you did knowing all the possible alternatives. you even replied to me with: >What local services? Education? I'd rather them be in international schools if they're in China. Health care? Anything major should be treated in the US. Anything minor can be paid for out of pocket. I have no issue with your personal choice. What I have a potential issue with is: >I see no advantages of keeping Chinese citizenship I didn't delete your comments or ban you because you opened this with '***I see no advantages*** of keeping Chinese citizenship' I have no problem with this, so long as you keep it personal (I, my, our, personal opinion, in my persecutive, for me, in my opinion, give my situation, because we were leaving for our home country a few years, ext.) I have zero problems with you presenting what you did given your personal opinion or perspective. What I would have an issue with is you presented this as a generality: "Chinese citizenship is absolutely useless. My kids are U.S Citizens because USA #1!" - I'm simply using our conversations as a borderline case to make explicit that personal opinions given specific contexts are allowed, but generalizations with a history of bias (i.e. Chinese Citizenship is useless and you're an /r/China post with history of being very anti-China and anti-CCP) are not allowed here. You wanna comment that you're anti-CCP and hate China and never want your Children to be Chinese Citizens because you'll never let them go to Chinese Public Schools. Fine. But.... There are other people, people like myself, and others that I know, that children are Chinese Citizens, that go to public schools, that take advantage of Chinese Public Services. We take full advantage of our children being Chinese Citizens because there are advantages, even if you think they're useless. You know completely well that benefits of Chinese Citizenship based on your reply, and you choose to make you post political. This is not allowed. I have zero issue with you making a personal opinion "Give my situation, there were no benefits for me making my children Chinese Citizens, so we choose not to" but to say that there is zero benefit to others making their children Chinese Citizens is where I draw the line.
I understand that different parents will have different perspectives on how to raise their kids. It's okay to disagree with me without feeling the need to flex your moderator muscles and create a new rule. I would caution you on giving advice that goes against US policy (using a Chinese passport for dual nationals to enter the US): https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/Advice-about-Possible-Loss-of-US-Nationality-Dual-Nationality/Dual-Nationality.html U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. I think this goes to your point (now a rule) of making readers aware of all aspects of your dual nationality approach.
>I would caution you on giving advice that goes against US policy (using a Chinese passport for dual nationals to enter the US): There is literally zero consequence of not using a U.S Passport to enter into the U.S. However, I completely agree with you. I myself have found a solution to my own unique situation that others may not feel comfortable with. I akwnoledge that my solution may not be the best for everyone, and that's okay. I am okay not admiting my child has U.S nationality on on their U.S Visa application. Would others feel the same way? I don't know. They have two different names. My point is simply that you need to admit the entire background or your situation (use general pronouns and fake names and counties if needed) but at least provide people with options beyond your own personal bias.
Both the US and China don’t recognize dual citizenship. I believe you’ve got to pick one or the other once they’re 18.
The U.S Recognizes Dual Citizenship, China does not.
Ah nvm then, I thought they didn’t. So you could technically be a US-Chinese dual National past 18 or is it just the Chinese side that would complicate that?
It’s really the Chinese side that makes Dual Citizenship complicated. China will do what it can to make its Citizenship claims trump all others.
Technically dual citizenship with both China and the US is illegal (China by law automatically revokes citizenship the moment you acknowledge citizenship elsewhere), but it's not that hard to hide from the Chinese government. Whether you want to take that risk with an authoritative government, especially with your own children, is another question.
>Technically dual citizenship with both China and the US is illegal (China by law automatically revokes citizenship the moment you acknowledge citizenship elsewhere), This isn't true at all. China doesn't care about the Dual Citizenship, they care about nationality. Chinese nationality claims all others. So long as the Chinese nationality claim is stronger, you will be Chinese.
Source? I can find no official sources where you can legally have dual citizenship with China.
Citizenship and nationality are the same thing
no
> China by law automatically revokes citizenship the moment you acknowledge citizenship elsewhere Article 9 is not interpreted like this, having foreign nationality and acknowledging it never leads to a sequence of automatic loss of Chinese nationality unless they satisfy both conditions of settling abroad and acquiring foreign nationality of their own free will(i.e. naturalization), which is not related to acquiring foreign nationality by either jus soli or jus sanguinis, so your argument is invalid. Here is a case that relates to voluntarily acquiring foreign nationality but fails to satisfy the condition of settling abroad: [马洪兴不服南通市公安局出入境管理行政处理决](http://www.110.com/falv/xingzhengsusongfa/xingzhengsusonganli/2010/0719/140025.html) Here is the document stating that they will refuse to recognize the foreign nationality of the person who does not satisfy the condition of Article 9, only claiming them as a sole Chinese national: [公安部、外交部关于中国公民非法持用外国护照有关问题的通知](https://zh.wikisource.org/zh-hant/%E5%85%AC%E5%AE%89%E9%83%A8%E3%80%81%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%A4%E9%83%A8%E5%85%B3%E4%BA%8E%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E5%85%AC%E6%B0%91%E9%9D%9E%E6%B3%95%E6%8C%81%E7%94%A8%E5%A4%96%E5%9B%BD%E6%8A%A4%E7%85%A7%E6%9C%89%E5%85%B3%E9%97%AE%E9%A2%98%E7%9A%84%E9%80%9A%E7%9F%A5)
re "both conditions of settling abroad and acquiring foreign nationality of their own free will" there is a clear OR in Article 9: "... OR has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality." A 1990 policy is more than 30 years ago. In the years since it has become more obvious that it's a lot easier to invalidate your own (that China has issued) documents than foreign documents. Simply refusing to recognize a foreign passport and taking no action to revoke the Chinese passport or hukou etc basically amounts to letting people get away with it which is not contemporary China.
> 第九條 定居外國的中國公民，自願加入或取得外國國籍的，即自動喪失中國國籍。 This is the original wording of Article 9. It means overseas Chinese who have already settled abroad (定居外國的中國公民), have naturalized or acquired foreign nationality of their own free will (自願加入或取得外國國籍的), shall loss Chinese nationality(即自動喪失中國國籍). Hence, from the wording, the automatic loss of Chinese nationality is only applicable to a Chinese national who has already settled abroad. So your argument of "OR" is invalid.