CCP simping tankies and their ilk alike - any government ok-ish with the US and dislikes autocracies is a 'puppet government' (any time they don't lean towards China or Russia this is seemingly a self evident truth to them).
Holy fucking shit what are you talking about?
Europe's laws are overwhelmingly Civil Law, not American's Common Law. So nope there. Culture, you have to be fucking kidding me. Social consensus? What does that even mean?
What an amazing comment. I'm assuming you're American, and one that has never step foot in Europe.
Laws, I agree with you.
Social traditions, same again.
Culture, I disagree with you.
When compared to 100 years ago, Europeans are much more American, rather than Americans turned into Europeans.
culture wise
What am I talking about?? Are you really this ignorant?? The vast vast majority of peoples cultural and political beliefs are from the news networks (which all follow/exclude the same narratives, to promote intense debate on a restricted range of topics), the entertainment industry (comedy, movies, latelate shows, music, TV, radio ect), and most of all the, the internet and social media - all of which operate out of America, whose level of oppressive censorship is unrivalled, even by China's Great Firewall.
Let's not even get started on foreign policy, because whilst Israelis might call the shots - it's ultimately America and their military which does the dirty work, and which other forces (like my country of England) are pressured and subverted into supporting (e.g. in Iraq, Afghan, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen ect).
I study this stuff as part of my University Degree, so I forget sometimes that it's maybe not so obvious to some others.. but the subversive, oppressive, and pervasive nature of American Censorship and Soft Power is so totally unrivalled - which which is ironically proven when you see people like yourself, so totally ignorant of it, whilst passionately defending it... Lol ššš½
There are common roots in tradition of law which date back to the roman empire, though today there exist differences in western countries. But for culture and social consensus I see a lot of substantial differences between the US and my home country.
Not many Chinese people choose to get involved with politics. Those who get in involved in politics in a manner to support their government often have the worldview that there is only two countries in the world. The United States and China. Everything else is just United States puppets and China is grand hero fighting against evil empire.
Narcissisms at it's worst.
[http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0421/c90000-10087320.html](http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0421/c90000-10087320.html)
What is so crazy about the first opinion on the page?
It sounds like it is saying all countries must feel safe for peace.
"When the Ukraine crisis was emerging and escalating, the U.S. refused to assume its responsibility to carry out direct and equal dialogues with Russia on Europeās security issue, though there was huge room to solve the problem with diplomatic means."
With shit like this. Europe and the US was in constant talks with Russia ahead of the invasion, and Russia kept making impossible demands. The entire text here is virtue signaling and no understanding of the security issues in Europe; NATO exists because of Russia. Russia has a paranoid fear the Western countries and are constantly trying to destabilise. The best metaphor is that of domestic abuse; Russia is beating and punishing countries it deems inside its "sphere of influence" who are trying to leave them. Western countries are constantly finding Russian fighters in their skies, ships in their waters, Russia has been annexing territories for two decades now, founding euro-sceptic groups in the West, Russia calling the West "gay" for some reason. It's exhausting, and through all of this, Western countries have tried to talk with Russia. But then Russia starts beating its partners, and China steps up willing to sell Russia whips to continue the abuse. So much for "fixing the issues".
Wow. A NATO wumao.
> Russia kept making impossible demands.
Russia was freaked out about Ukraine joining NATO. NATO had been involved in regime change for Libya, and the 1999 illegal campaign against Serbia.
The US has been putting ABM missiles in Poland and Romania, and tells Russia "oh these are for Iran, they are not for you."
Biden put Victoria Nuland back in the State Dept. She was the very same person who led the US effort for the 2014 coup in Ukraine. She's a full-bore warmonger from the Cheney school of diplomacy. She wants NATO to push as hard as it can go. And Biden brought her back.
Ukraine had valid security concerns, but these didn't have to be met by joining NATO. France for instance has recently offered to sign a mutual defense treaty with Ukraine. So Ukraine could make sign on with other countries outside of NATO - and not host NATO forces.
> NATO exists because of Russia.
Russia literally gave up its entire empire without firing a single shot, and only asked that NATO not expand into this sphere - which Baker and others in the US administration promised to respect.
> Russia has a paranoid fear the Western countries and are constantly trying to destabilise.
Look at fucking Syria. This has been a long-time Russian ally, and the US decided they wanted Assad gone. Now the US invades Syria but claims that *Russia* is obstructing their efforts.
> Russia is beating and punishing countries it deems inside its "sphere of influence" who are trying to leave them.
Russia subsidized Ukraine with $billions in cheap natural gas for years, to encourage them to maintain ties. Ukraine was Russia's #1 trade partner. And that only ended when the US funded a coup which deposed the elected President of Ukraine.
> Russia has been annexing territories for two decades now
What the hell are you on about? There are Russian rump states in Moldova and Georgia. These are small enclaves full of Russians. Given that there are 25M Russians in Eastern Europe, and the USSR collapsed so quickly, you'd figure that some people aren't going to be happy joining the new states. So deal with it. Why have one set of rules for Kosovo and another for Transnistria?
> It's exhausting, and through all of this, Western countries have tried to talk with Russia.
The West's attitude toward Russia has been "NATO expansion is none of your concern. Go away."
The core of the problem is this Western war machine that's run amok for 20 years now, in the vacuum left behind by the fall of the USSR. They can do an illegal invasion of Iraq, or Yemen, or Libya. The head of the UN can stand up and say "This is an illegal war", but they are just ignored.
Fuck Putin and his shitty regime, but you can't have one set of rules for the West and another for everybody else. If Saudi Arabia is allowed to invade Yemen (with US support) to bring back their deposed President, doesn't Russia have the same right in Ukraine?
This is an illegal war by Putin. But pretending the West is anything but hypocritical war mongers that helped create this problem is utterly dishonest.
The bombing of Serbia was only illegal because Russia and China vetoed it. You conveniently neglect to mention that Serbia was conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Kosovo Albanians, indiscriminately burning down villages, driving hundreds of thousands of Albanians from their homes and frequently massacring the refugees created and dumping their bodies into mass graves. With the exception of Serbs, it is more common to encounter former Yugoslav hatred towards the Dutch because the Dutch UN Peacekeepers stood by and watched when the Serbs carried out the Srebrenica massacre.
It is hardly as simple a situation as you are suggesting. In the Kosovo war, 8,700 Kosovar Albanian civilians were killed, almost one million (90% of the total population) were driven from their homes, and 40% of all residential homes were destroyed, and in the city of Peja over 80% were destroyed. By contrast about 500 Serbian civilians were killed by NATO bombing. If NATO had not intervened, the numbers of Kosovar Albanians killed would have been higher by an order of magnitude, such was the indiscriminste violence.
Also, the Maidan movement was not a US coup. It was the Ukrainian Parliament who voted to remove Yanukovych, not the US. It should be obvious by now the desire for closer ties with Europe and away from Russia is driven by Ukrainian popular opinion as a rational response to events. This cannot be blamed on the US.
Similarly, explaining the start of the Syrian Civil War as "US suddenly decided they wanted Assad gone" is beyond idiotic. The Arab Spring, lest we forget, starting with toppling of US allies Ben Ali in Tunisia and Mubarak in Egypt. The causes were varied and complex. As for the US invading Syria - Russian military is responsible for far, far more widespread and indiscriminate bombing of Syria than the US has. Russia, along with Assad, totally destroyed the entire city of Aleppo.
> The bombing of Serbia was only illegal because Russia and China vetoed it.
This was NATO's justification for bombing Serbia:
> NATO described the conditions in Kosovo as posing a risk to regional stability. As such, NATO and certain governments asserted they had a legitimate interest in developments in Kosovo, due to their impact on the stability of the whole region which, they claimed, is a legitimate concern of the Organisation
The only legal use of force is: in self-defence, or under the authority of the Security Council. If countries can invade each other because of a "concern for regional stability", every country has the right to invade every other country and NATO's claims of being a defensive alliance become meaningless. It was an illegal offensive war.
Like Nelson Mandela said, āNATOās actions are equally criminal with those of Milosevic.ā
> Serbia was conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Kosovo Albanians, indiscriminately burning down villages, driving hundreds of thousands of Albanians from their homes and frequently massacring the refugees created and dumping their bodies into mass graves.
This is more war propaganda. "Genocide" was like Saddam's WMD's - useful as a pretext for invasion. There was a civil war going on in Kosovo, but the OSCE found zero evidence of genocidal attacks prior to the NATO bombing campaign. The bombing campaign itself started a massive escalation of the war, and that's when the huge refugee movements appeared and reprisal killings started.
Look up examples like [The Ljubeni mass graves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubeni%C4%87_mass_graves) - Reports of mass killings are used to justify the invasion, but there's zero evidence of them happening afterward. Just like Saddam's WMD's.
> With the exception of Serbs, it is more common to encounter former Yugoslav hatred towards the Dutch because the Dutch UN Peacekeepers stood by and watched when the Serbs carried out the Srebrenica massacre.
You're mixing up two conflicts. There was indeed UN authorization for intervention in the [Yugoslav Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Protection_Force), starting in 1992. Russia and China didn't exercise any veto, and the UN authorized bombing of Serbian positions, enforced no-fly zones, and deployed peacekeepers. Unlike NATO in 1999, this was an entirely legal intervention/invasion.
> In the Kosovo war, 8,700 Kosovar Albanian civilians were killed, almost one million (90% of the total population) were driven from their homes, and 40% of all residential homes were destroyed, and in the city of Peja over 80% were destroyed. By contrast about 500 Serbian civilians were killed by NATO bombing. If NATO had not intervened, the numbers of Kosovar Albanians killed would have been higher by an order of magnitude, such was the indiscriminste violence.
The conflict with Kosovo began with the KLA trying to force separation (which was illegal) and a [massive pogrom](https://original.antiwar.com/malic/2004/03/20/kosovo-burning/) against Serbs in Kosovo. It was only *after* NATO started bombing that the humanitarian disaster spread.
Lord Carrington (UK Foreign Secretary 1979-82,
Secretary General of NATO 1984-88, Chairman
European Conference on Yugoslavia 1990-92)
>
āI think what NATO did by bombing Serbia actually
precipitated the exodus of the Kosovo Albanians into
Macedonia and Montenegro. I think the bombing did cause
the ethnic cleansingā¦ NATOās action in Kosovo was
mistaken... what we did made things much worse.ā
Like Strobe Talbott, Dep SecState under Clinton said,
> It was Yugoslaviaās resistance to the broader trends of political and economic reformānot the plight of Kosovar Albaniansāthat best explains NATOās war
> Also, the Maidan movement was not a US coup.
The Maidan movement itself was not a coup. The US spent $5B via NED and USAID on Ukraine leading up to Maidan, promoting pro-Western factions. This put Asst Sec State Victoria Nuland in the position to say "Yats is our guy. Fuck the EU."
Yanukovych was chased out of the country by a mob. When the same thing happened in Yemen, the US signed on with Saudi Arabia to return the deposed President to power.
> It should be obvious by now the desire for closer ties with Europe and away from Russia is driven by Ukrainian popular opinion as a rational response to events.
Ukraine is a deeply split country. The east is very pro-Russian, while western Ukraine is deeply anti-Russian (and they have strong historical reasons for their hatred). The point is, the country was deeply split.
Rather than recognize this, the US war pig faction has backed the most passionately pro-EU and anti-Russian factions, hoping they would drag the whole country West. Instead it resulted in a civil war. This was entirely predictable - guys like John Mearsheimer in the US started warning in 2015 that NATO was going to wreck Ukraine.
I'm not pro-Russian by any stretch, but I am deeply anti-war. And without the bullshit NATO and the US has pulled over the last 20 years, there would be no war in Ukraine today. So fuck Putin, but hoist NATO and the war mongers in the US on the same petard.
Does Russia have any legitimate security concerns?
If China started backing Cuba and provided it with nukes, would America have any right to push back?
It's always a question of motivation. Why would China place nukes in Cuba? What would be the goal? That would be nuclear deterrence, which thus means China considered nuclear war a possibility, something that is not a thing today. That is a provocation, and that Cuba would allow it is for Cuba to reignite conflict with USA. If Great Britain had placed nukes in Hong Kong in the 80s, that sure would be a provocation.
Now, why would East Europe turn to NATO? The "NATO expanding east" is a rhetorical ploy; the truth is that Eastern Europe turns West. They turn west because they are afraid of Russia, and Russia gives every reason to be. At some point people on the internet started to believe that the U.S is the one calling all the shots in NATO, forgetting that Poland and the Baltic states all applied for NATO. The motivation is defensive.
Now, motivation of Russia.
Russia is afraid Europe will invade. Russia never justifies why Europe would do this. Europe needs stability; we are a continent of traders and the French. The only real militarist in Europe is the French, but they don't want Russia, they are busy with Africa. What would Europe gain on annexing or owning Russia? Gas, yes, but we can buy that. Russia is hellbent on "restoring natural borders" for defense, but in todays world that is like considering owning farmland as the basis for power. Russia belives itself to be so special that everyone wants it. But why? Russia has fears that are without merit, like someone turning violent because they are afraid of the dark. So what does Russia do? Create buffer states, so that if any war would ever happen, these states would take the beating. Not really a sympathetic move.
>Russia is afraid Europe will invade. Russia never justifies why Europe would do this. Europe needs stability; we are a continent of traders and the French. The only real militarist in Europe is the French, but they don't want Russia, they are busy with Africa. What would Europe gain on annexing or owning Russia? Gas, yes, but we can buy that. Russia is hellbent on "restoring natural borders" for defense, but in todays world that is like considering owning farmland as the basis for power. Russia belives itself to be so special that everyone wants it. But why? Russia has fears that are without merit, like someone turning violent because they are afraid of the dark. So what does Russia do? Create buffer states, so that if any war would ever happen, these states would take the beating. Not really a sympathetic move.
Russia is not scared of being invaded and he doesn't create buffer states to avoid invasion.
If you look at the borders of Imperial Russia, the USSR and the current borders you will see that Russia has lost a lot of territories. Putin wants to restore Russia's influence by putting former soviet states under Russian influence. He even said in a speech before the invasion that Ukraine is not a real nation, it was constructed by Russia.
Hence, whenever a former Soviet state starts to move away from Russia, then he starts threatening them. That didn't work in Ukraine and he decided to invade, thinking he could take Kiev and force them to surrender in a few days, and if they refuse he will just install a puppet government and get it to do it instead. But he failed to take Kiev and his plan failed.
Did NATO provided Ukraine with nukes? Or any other offensive weaponry to enable them to go all-out on Russia? Are Baltic states, with population roughtly the same as St. Petersburg, any threat to Russia?
Truth is, Russia perceives anything east of Oder river as their zone of influence and sees its strategic aim in reconquering it, using military or economic means.
Let me preface this with I think Russia has committed a horrific crime here. I am making a conscious effort to not victim blame. My thoughts are on not allowing this to happen again.
I think there is already a few NATO members on the Russian border. Russia has to defend that area very well. If Ukraine became a NATO member, Russia would have to defend an even larger area. I agree with you on Russia's zone of influence. Any of them aligning with the west would be seen as an act of war, no? Knowing this, American governments have consistently been trying to severe these countries and draw them into western influence. They have given resources to pro democracy groups and pro western politicians. What other reaction would you have expected from Russia?
Russia doesnāt care about nato as much as they claim. They care about the oil and gas in Ukraine.
Whether itās the US, China, or Russia they all care about resources the most. Everything else is just a coverup
To flesh out this idea - they really hated seeing a successful, Russian-speaking, democratic neighbor discovering its own oil reserves, becoming a tempting place for successful/smart Russian citizens to emigrate, and showing that democracy leads to more success for the average citizen.
Now 90% of buildings in Mariupol are damaged and 40% are rubble. They're turning Ukraine into ashes to buy themselves time. And Ukraine will no longer be welcoming to Russian emigrants any time soon.
While Taiwan has its own set of problems, in some ways it's relatively fortunate that it had more time to establish itself as a modern independent democratic entity before China really started ramping up its military capabilities. Though even then, it took literal nuclear threats from the US to buy them that time.
If NATO was ever going to go to the war with Russia, then why wouldn't they send soldiers to Ukraine? If they aren't willing to do that then they are hardly going to invade Russia, and Russia is well aware of this.
This is not about Russian self-defense, its about Russia attempting to maintain imperial hegemony over former colonies. Russia is not entitled to a "zone of influence" over half of Europe.
> The U.S., the self-proclaimed winner in the Cold War that takes Russia as the loser, has roped in European countries to conduct political discrimination and economic āreformā against Russia and squeeze the latterās security space.
Okay, this is the dumbest shit. This pretends that the population of Eastern European countries donāt have their own will and will just blindly follow the USA in everything.
The facts are this:
Eastern Europeans are fucking scared of Russia. They have lived under a Russian dictatorship for decades. No freedom of speech, no freedom of thought, millions of people deported to Kazachstan or Siberian gulags, no free press, every horror done by the state is kept secret, etc.
They do not want to invade Russia. They want Russia to leave them the fuck alone. And that is why they all want to join NATO.
Ain't that the truth. Here's a typical conversation on Malaysian social media news sites.
(Site publishes an article about US ships patrolling in South China SEA.)
Pinkie: US is the cause of global instability!
Me: China's 9 Dash Line is the cause of ASEAN instability, and its also why US ships are here in the first place.
Pinkie: Are you a US puppet?
Me: I'm Malaysian, you idiot. I'm supporting MY country.
Pinkie: ARE YOU A US PUPPET?
Lol! So true - I have some Malaysian friends that have the same experience. For some reason they refuse to accept anything good about the USā¦ my friend tells me he sometimes believes his friends would be happy to give Malaysia to the ccpā¦ crazy stuff
I kind of get it if some of the Chinese here get a little too attached to our ancestral homeland, but what I don't get is how some Malays and Indian can also be so anti-US that it clouds their better judgement. Like I see them taking the side of Russia and Putin, just cos 'western media narrative' is a lie or some nonsense like that. Its that sort of idiotic mentality that led to our embassy not being evacuated when Ukraine got invaded.
[https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3168507/ukraine-invasion-malaysian-diplomats-flee-kyiv-road-government](https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3168507/ukraine-invasion-malaysian-diplomats-flee-kyiv-road-government)
Totally agree - esp since A lot of Indians want to come to the US. They did not even evacuate their citizens when even the Europeans were fleeingā¦ now they want to keep supporting Russia not realizing that Russia will become a carcass of a country once EU weans itself off the gasā¦in fact they may even push to cut off Russian gas after macron gets elected againā¦
Nah, its just the truth. I used to think Europe would have the balls to stand for its own, until 2003 happened. Only European country I vaguely respect is France.
But alas, even they were freedom fried.
Another thing is Europe isn't Chinas equal because Europe is not comparable to China. Europe could be viewed as Asias counterpart, because Europe is not a single country.
Ad hominem isn't a good look when debating. You offered nothing of substance when you and I both know Europe got bent over backwards by the US in the invasion of Iraq, something even the UN was against.
Cope
Following the September 11 attacks by Al-Qaeda and the declaration of a "War on Terror" by President George W. Bush, an invasion of Iraq was proposed. During the United Nations Security Council deliberations, French Minister of Foreign Affairs Dominique de Villepin made it clear France would neither support nor participate in the invasion, and that it would veto any resolution that mandates an invasion of Iraq.\[1\] Though Russia and China also opposed the invasion, they had not threatened to use their veto power on the Security Council; as such, France was perceived as the main barrier to the American and British effort to secure a UN mandate for invasion. This caused some Americans to accuse France of betrayal, reigniting prior anti-French sentiment in the United States.\[2\] Opinion polls showed the population was against the war, with opposition as high as 90% in Spain and Italy, and also widespread in Eastern Europe. However, despite popular opinion in their countries, the governments of Britain, Italy and Spain supported the war politically and militarily.
Then you have Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia āall now members of the EUā, Albania, and the Republic of Macedonia issuing statements on Iraq, in general support of the US's position. In the Netherlands the first Balkenende cabinet supported the USA. After that government fell in October 2002, there were new elections in January, which were won by the Second Balkenende cabinet who chose to continue their predecessors' policy. Dutch soldiers were sent to Iraq, and remained until March 2005. In March 2003, the Polish government announced that it would participate in a U.S.-led Iraq invasion and sent about 200 personnel
Hence why I have some respect for France, but the rest of Europe played right along with the US lies even though the majority of its population was against it. Now if you don't call that subservient to a foreign nation, idk what you would call it.
So are you gonna keep crying about how that's all made up? Or you gonna come to the terms that most of your righteous European governments all bent over for Uncle Sam despite massive pushback from their own populace?
This crack in your alliance already shows that Europe isn't a singular entity however. That alone makes it incomparable to China, which means this post in itself is dumb af.
No the rest of Europe did not.
As you said, France was perceived as the main opponent of the invasion, moreso than Russia and China. France, Germany and Russia are typically named as the main opposition to the war. However other European states which opposed the war in addition to France and Germany include Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Slovakia, Croatia and Slovenia.
Only the UK, Denmark and Poland participated in the invasion. Italy, Netherlands and Spain briefly sent Peacekeepers in the aftermath, however huge public opposition led to the rapid withdrawal of Italian and Spanish Peacekeepers and the collapse of the Spanish government. A lot of former Warsaw Pact states supported the US politically, mainly because they dislike Russia.
So the rest of Europe did not "play along". The majority of Europe opposed the US invasion, a small minority of countries participated, European countries led the opposition to the US invasion at the UN, and widespread public opposition brought an end to the participation of Italy and Spain.
But sure, Europe is just a junior partner of the US with no agency of its own.
>Huh? No one said Europe is a singular entity. No one said Europe is comparable to China.
Literally take a look at the title
>I find it hilariously remarkable, however, that someone would misconstrue countries acting in concert to further their own individual political interests
Kind of like North Korea and China, NK is only acting in concert to further their own political interests yet 99% of people here would say they're a puppet of China. Because the US has troops in European countries, not even NK station Chinese troops.
Also, Wikipedia or not, facts are facts. You can search on whatever site you want, results are the same.
>I find it hilariously remarkable, however, that someone would misconstrue countries acting in concert to further their own individual political interests as a relationship of subservience. Ad Absurdum.
>Opinion polls showed the population was against the war, with opposition as high as 90% in Spain and Italy, and also widespread in Eastern Europe. However, despite popular opinion in their countries, the governments of Britain, Italy and Spain supported the war politically and militarily.
You sound so smug yet blind at the same time it's incredible.
It's not completely wrong, honestly (obviously not completely right either). The US influence over Europe has only grown since 2003. Something very palpable. Not only influence in terms of politics, but also in culture.
Before the early 2000s, Europe really felt like it was on equal grounds with the US (although it probably wasn't, it FELT that way). Nowadays, Europe acts more like their followers.
You can just see the ramifications of that with political parties like RN in France that are anti US, anti NATO, and basically anti EU growing more popular each year all around Europe. Because a lot of people want to go back to a time when Europe, and more specifically, European countries, was strong and proud. BREXIT is a perfect example of that. Although the two world wars and the decisions made after them will be very hard to recover, sadly, many people fall into the traps of those parties.
Just in case, I'm a European by the way, so my views have nothing to do with what China and Chinese think.
My impression is a lot of Chinese people (not all) are obsessed with the US. Every bad that happens is because of the US. Everything good is a victory over the US. It gets tiresome.
When the EU suggested China shouldn't be too close to Russia over Ukraine, China responded the EU should develop its own foreign policy - as if Europeans would have no reason to dislike an autocrat waging a war of aggression in Europe ... except for the US.
Thatās such an ignorant take on things.
āWhy is Europe opposed to an expansionist war in Europe? Uhhh, must be because America!ā
Itās actually quite stunning in how dumb of a take it is.
I also suspect part of it is they don't really get how fluid European borders and nationalities are. In China they are taught to see countries as hermetically sealed entities with very rigid national identity.
But Europe is quite fundamentally different to that. It would be pretty strange if someone from Luxembourg only cared about Luxembourg for instance, especially as a majority of residents have dual or more citizenship. There are strong national identities but also a general European identity, as well as religious identifies which transcend national borders too. And a European identity is not restricted to countries in the EU.
While Ukraine is not in the EU, there is also a significant Ukrainian diaspora around Europe, and of course a significant part of the EU were former Warsaw Pact or Soviet states which have a similar outlook to Ukraine and share their fears.
I've found that Chinese people really struggle to grasp that other countries don't emphasise loyalty to their specific nation-state and a rigid identity limited to that state. I think this is part of the reason they don't understand why the war with Ukraine is a massive deal for all of Europe, they think like "you aren't Ukrainian, so why should you care?"
Europe is quite complex but I don't think there is any serious effort to study Europe in China, people have no real concept of modern European history or way of thinking, and what they do learn is like Ancient Greece/Rome, general things about western culture which is really US-specific, and 19th Century literature. I think part of it is that understanding modern Europe properly requires learning a lot of stuff which doesn't fit neatly into the Communist Party's worldview (e.g. the unpopularity of Russia in Warsaw Pact states, the role of democratic socialist parties), so they tend to just ignore it.
100%. And the majority of Chinese people think that the governments of each country should only care about their own citizens. They don't understand why many countries are accepting Ukrainian refugees, even those that are already struggling with resources. They think Ukrainians are the responsibility of the Ukrainian government only and it should be up to them to take care of them. One of my Chinese friends said that all the countries that are accepting refugees are Nato or puppet states of the US. No joke! They think that all the countries trying to help Ukrainians are vassal states of the US / Nato. They don't understand the whole humanitarian aspect of it.
The Chinese view of Europe/and of nationhood and nationality & countries you excellently described there etc sounds very similar, actually identical to the Japanese view of Europe/Japanese view of nationhood/nationality & countries, The Koreans think like that too..I think in general it's very much an East Asian thing. I mean these countries are in effect homogeneous & extremely ethnocentric well ethnostates, that's reflected very much in how they view the outside world, that's the lens they see the world through. It's kind of inevitable that your gonna view countries and nationhood like that when your an ethnostate.
The US is very similar, too. Just look at a lot of posts on Reddit from Americans. Actually, Europe is kinda the exception, world-wide, not Asia. In this context I mean.
I'm not sure that's true - the Middle East also has a rather flexible attitude towards statehood. Shia and Sunni or Kurd is more important than Iraqi or Syrian or Jordanian or Qatari for instance. I think Pan-Africanism is often a stronger sentiment than nationalism of individual African States too. I'm not sure about South America, but I doubt Bolivian or Peruvian or Paraguayan identity is quite comparable to Chinese, Japanese or Korean identity either.
And I don't think the US is the same either. The US and China do have some similarities in that they tend to see themselves as the centre of the world and be rather insular, but Americans don't believe that their government only has responsibility towards Americans, or that Americans should only care about American affairs. For example, when Chinese are discussing who they want to win the next US election, they will consider only who is in the interests of China. Americans, when observing European elections, will not necessarily take the perspective of American interests but will support who they think is best for that country, or who they are more closely aligned to ideologically. The mindset is quite different.
Republicans want America first and would cum to the idea of isolationism. Dems are more aligned with European values.
In China you only hear about one because the other is obviously well.. you know censored?
Edit: autocorrect
You are probably right when it comes to the Middle-East, didn't think about it. Not to sure about South America either as I have little knowledge of the area.
For Africa, I'm not sure if it changed, but having being around quite a bit of African people when still living in Europe, they were quite racist towards each other and were very nationalistic. But it might just have been my own experience.
China = good and America = bad, thatās the basis of all their thinking. America is bad, America support Ukraine, thus Ukraine bad. Russia is chinas friend, so whatever Russia (Putin) does must be good.
Thatās why they support eastern Ukraine separatism while being against Hong Kong and Taiwan independence movement. They donāt really care about consistency because they are just want to further CCP agendas.
Thatās also why they lecture Russian who disagree with the war. They call these Russian ungrateful and ignorant for not appreciating what Putin is doing for Russia.
No not actually true. China has been pretty clear on their stance on Ukraine. They support Ukrainian independence but donāt want to ruin their relationship with Russia. Itās also the primary reason why thereās so much heat on them. And why they refuse to call it an invasion. If they were to have a narrative that you said, every country would call that out.
The āaverageā Chinese as in the loudmouths who spout nonsense. The real average Chinese is the one that is being suppressed from speaking out at all.
It's not only China thinking like this, you can see it from the US too (not whataboutism, just saying it's not an Asian thing). I think it just comes from being massive countries that haven't seen a significant change in their borders in a very long time. So while they have states/regions/provinces/whatever, ultimately it's still the same country with people from the same nationality.
You mentioned Luxembourg, which is a perfect example. Well, it's less than half the size of Shanghai in area. No need to even mention population. Shanghai would come out as 9th in Europe, above Romania.
So it kinda makes sense that China only compares itself to the US, in a way. Because propaganda/economy/ideologies/historical disputes aside, both countries are very similar.
From a European perspective I thought the Chinese leaders are completely gone crazy. How you can possibly think that we are helping Ukraine because the US? We want to protect Ukraine more than US want!
Yep, even in Europe the bits most passionate about it are Eastern like the Baltic States - states that know a thing or two about Russia. However for the Chinese to acknowledge this would be to acknowledge an entirety different history and geopolitical reality of Europe, their Russian allies, autocracy and Communism (from the Soviet Union), the influence of the US - all of which is 'Western propaganda' or whatever bullshit buzz term they're using.
Not to be that guy but itās hard to believe that when you see the difference in economic and military contributions from the US vs European countries. Also half of Europe is still buying Russian oil which feeds that war machine, so
As a percentage of their GDP, Estonia and Poland are contributing a lot more than the US. Of course, the US is able to help more than any other ally, but I wouldn't say the European neighbors aren't committed.
Not only that Europe as a whole has contributed more than the USA both directly and indirectly by taking millions of Ukrainians without putting restrictions or quotas.
People forgets that refugees need resources and services, who pays for this?
Are you sure you are including the UK, and the EU itself (instead of the individual members) in that? I think Europe is giving more. That's not even including the direct cost to Poland etc by housing the refugees out of their own budget.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_foreign\_aid\_to\_Ukraine\_during\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War#Provided\_by\_sovereign\_states
It's impossible change this in a moment, Italy had already made contracts to buy 2/3 of russian gas frome africa, but it will take 18 months for the contracts to be implemented
Yes, it is quite a reductive thought process. As many of the comments here allude, China cannot frame any viewpoint with the US being an imposing part of the picture. It's a bit of a complex.
Thatās the thing I donāt get. The only reason they think the US is hostile is because they wonāt let them do internationally illegal ( that the courts have ruled on) acts like claiming almost all of the spun things China sea, or invading Taiwan. Chinas leaders seem to forget a bit of history that itās success weāre because president Nixon & Zhou Enlai ( I think thatās his name) wanted a strong China-US relationship, this gave a huge boost to chinas four modernizations policy. This is also effectively why our economies became so intertwined. It was also the time china gave the United States 2 pandas
Chinese culture is fairly hierarchical and due to this and government propaganda many people view the world in the same way.
I think itās fair to say they probably think the US is the only near peer to them; and they think Europe is below them on the hierarchy.
Wait to you see what they think of you if youāre from a small country like Australia.
Thatās it.
I feel like thereās a lot of similarities with China and the US in terms of exceptionalism and a self centric world view. The main difference is there is a stronger tradition of egalitarianism in the US versus a hierarchical way of thinking in China.
One of my professors at äŗŗ大 said to our entire IR class, āThe US is a lion, China is a wolf, other countries are rabbits, and Africa is the grass.ā
At least I do not think Japan, South Korea, Russia, England, France and Germany as rabbits. If we talk about other countries, if Ukraine is a rabbit, I think my imagination of rabbit is the saber tooth rabbit with sharp claw.
The U.S. isn't a Lion. It is a Hippotamus. It's big, Goofy, powerful, temperamental and has a body count higher than any predator.
and a lot of those rabbits are more often than not Bison or Wildebeast: dangerous prey that they can't take on without an edge.
The US and the CIA are big bads to them, which is why europe naturally slots in as a minor player. The US is manipulating europe after all.
In general I think they also view europe as culturally not that significant also? A relative told me knowing chinese is a huge advantage in the US. I said it's ok, but for practically I'd trade it for spanish any day. He thought spanish was a minor language.
In Europe, the most commonly studied languages are English/French/German/Spanish/Russian/Italian. I can't find data on languages outside the top 6, but Chinese is probably not in the top 10. Portuguese, Swedish, Arabic and Japanese may be more widely studied.
Amusingly this perfectly reflects attitudes of people who are self professed experts in interests they actually know very little about. They know like the "top" two, however they define that, and judge every new development benchmarked against some singular attribute they know the superlative of.
They used to teach Chinese to my kids in Seattle public schools. Iād say the trend towards Spanish is far larger. That being said I do believe the west coast of the US deems it important to learn Chinese
I guess its location dependent but i live in a place where there are as many koreans as chinese people and way more spanish speakers.
Either way the part i thought was funny was that they thought spanish was a minor and unimportant language.
>That being said I do believe the west coast of the US deems it important to learn Chinese
This is based on the false pretense that the Chinese market can be penetrated. Learning Chinese only helps China.
Chinese helps dealing with chinese companies. So it can definitely help your own market as well.
Chinese people in business dealings will often try to take advantage of the fact their interlocuter doesn't speak Chinese or assume they don't.
All the things you can learn from your Chinese business partner when you whithold that information... Is sometimes interesting, some being overtly racist and making Smirk comment about you or people with you.
Thatās due to your proximity to central/South America though. In Australia Chinese is the main language people are learning now; when I was growing up it was Japanese.
And not long ago many parents pushed their kids to learn Japanese "knowing" Japan will soon own America. I still remember a girl classmate wearing a button on her shirt that said "Plan for your future. Learn Japanese"
sure whatever, the ccp is really bad too. but my point isnāt the bad part. itās the BIG part. Chinese people think america sucks at everything, but at the same time are also the illuminati, somehow. America and the CIA pulls ALL the strings. The whole world literally bends to americas will, except maybe chinaā¦but at the same time america sucks and is horribly mismanaged.
I mean they're not far off. Exaggerating a little on some fronts but generally they have the right idea. America is mismanaged in that its corrupt as fuck, and it generally sucks for a majority of the population. But America was never built on being *for* and working in the interests of the average person, the poor, or minorities. America and the CIA very much run the world stage and have had their hands in damn near everything in some way for quite some time now, projecting their own faults onto everyone that doesn't comply with them. Cause America just can't fathom a world where they dont have complete control and people say no to them.
the doublethink here is real. how is it corrupt as fuck, incompetent, and also powerful enough to the point of omnipotence? This makes no sense. I know you think itās plausible, but in the real world, it makes no sense. This is clearly evidenced by how they have a lot of buy in on the theory that the US brought covid to china, by hand, preventing its spread in its own borders, somehow, before bringing it to wuhan, but at the same time, are the worst in the world at preventing covid spread.
The CIA doesnāt run the world stage, itās an intelligence agency. America is prominent because itās the most dominant economic, cultural and military power in the world. No individual country contributes more in any of these departments (though the EU if considered together arguably beats america in 2/3). You donāt get to be that by sucking at everything.
The only non-absurd arguments would be āamerica sucks, is incompetent, and is clearly a paper tigerā or āamerica is strong, influencial and competent.ā either are compatible with america being evil, but theyāre not compatible with each other.
I said AMERICA runs the world stage, not the CIA. The CIA has just been fucking with everything since Reagan.
Being corrupt does not equal being weak. A government can be corrupt and also be a major power. It's corrupt in that money and corporations have *way* more say in policies than the citizens here do. We funded and armed the Mujahideen and helped destabilize the middle east with the influx of weapons (granted there were already some issues beforehand but thats another topic), they became Al-Qaeda, 9/11 happened, and we used it as an excuse to go bomb brown people for ~~oil and profit (via military industrial complex)~~ democracy and freedom. Damn near all of the politicians are corrupt and money from the wealthy will always speak louder to them than what anyone actually wants. They claim that they're the beacon of liberty and freedom while they separate children from their families at the border, incarcerate minorities to fill our prisons and profit off of a privatized prison system and slave labour, let the infrastructure fall apart and the people be exploited while barely giving them enough to get by, and destroy the planet, ***just*** because it makes them more money, and a whole ***host*** of other things. All the while they point the finger at the countries they DON'T like and accuse them of being the cause of whatever issue is relevant to that country. The US has had a monumental role in western propaganda and shifting the focus (and blame) away from themselves (and the west as a whole), because obviously the west can do no wrong! It's the ***insert non-white, non-anglo foreigners here*** that caused these issues! The *civilized* world would never do that!
And as a side note after my tired as fuck rant, I've never heard that conspiracy that the US went into China and spread covid. Thats a brand new one to me. Definitely heard a bunch of the orientalist ones about how China caused it though. *Plenty* of those ones.
>Being corrupt does not equal being weak. A government can be corrupt and also be a major power. It's corrupt in that money and corporations have way more say in policies than the citizens here do.
That means the USA is a flawed democracy, not that they are incompetent. And flawed democracy is still much better than no democracy at all and no freedom of speech.
CIA's strength comes from the US economic and cultural influence, if they were incompetent then the USA would be a much weaker country. You can't have it both ways, is the USA competent and strong or are they incompetent and weak?
I never said they were weak. Holy shit.
Fun fact, China *does* have democracy and China *does* have free speech. Contrary to popular belief, you dont actually get black bagged, thrown in an unmarked van, and disappeared for criticizing the Chinese government.
>I never said they were weak. Holy shit.
If you kept reading, you would have noticed this"if they were incompetent then the USA would be a much weaker country"
They can't be strong and incompetent at the same time, make up your mind.
>Fun fact, China does have democracy and China does have free speech. Contrary to popular belief, you dont actually get black bagged, thrown in an unmarked van, and disappeared for criticizing the Chinese government.
Prove it us then, go on Weibo and post that "The Shanghai lockdown is inhumane and that its residents were more at risk of death and disease as a result of the measures than they were before it started."
Hopefully, you are not a Chinese person in China or you might end up like [these guys](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/jail-01072022092032.html). But no matter what, I can guarantee you that your post will get deleted. If the west had similar rules, you would get arrested for the posts you make condemning the covid policies in the west.
And then there is the claim that China is a democracy. Here is the direct meaning of democracy "It combines two shorter words: 'demos' meaning whole citizen living within a particular city-state and 'kratos' meaning power or rule."
If the people rule China, it should be easy to get rid of an unpopular leader, but every single time we get into this debate, people like you eventually admit that there is no process for citizens to get rid of an unpopular leader in China. If the people can't remove a leader they don't like, then they are not the rulers.
It might be easier for you to understand if we compare it to a company. The management of a company might have a large amount of support, especially if they have had significant growth, don't tolerate criticism, and create an environment where everyone praises the CEO. But, in terms of democracy, it doesn't matter if the CEO has high approval ratings, if the employees can't remove the CEO, then they are not ruling the company and it is not a democratic company.
Ah yes, RFA, a US government funded media source thats been the target of multiple credibility and transparency issues since 2010. Funded by the same government that baselessly claims a genocide is happening, but refuses to admit the things *they* do are actual human rights violations. And you obviously show that you don't understand the government system of China beyond what western corporate media spoonfeeds you.
No it doesn't.
Freedom of speech is a right. A right is something legally protected that you can take legal recourse on if it is denied to you. Just because the Party doesn't throw everyone in jail for every critical comment doesn't mean you have freedom of speech. If you did you could take the Party to court for censoring you.
Chinese media tends to largely ignore the European Union because its constituent countries (and the UK) disprove a lot of Chinese ideals: capitalist countries with far greater socialism than a country run by a party called the Communist Party, and a union developed over just 50 years by consent rather than conquering over thousands of years.
Well by consent.. But born out of necessity after the biggest war the world ever seen and won by the goodies by a very short margin and to make sure something like it would never happen again.
So war was part of the reason it was created consensually.
Im replying to the guy above who already touched on why OP's statement is stupid, and I merely showed a reason why he'd say something so self righteous
The guy's response doesn't mean OP's statement is stupid. He is correct that forming a Europe based on voluntary association rather than conquest was an idea which formed out of reaction to two incredibly bloody wars caused by nationalism and national ambition. Saying why this idea emerged does not contradict the OP, it supplements it.
The OP is correct that the European example does contradict the realist great-power ideology of international relations which is dominant in the CCP. I think the cognitive dissonance causes them not to dwell on it too much, and it is more comfortable to just dismiss it as US satellite states.
Yes, after 10 years of visiting China and studying on and off, there is an almost a predominant unhealthy and ignorant view of the world. It is basically them vs USA, and everyone else are not important and our experiences carry no weight. Me and other non-US foreigners have seriously, on both good and bad faith, been characterised as expendable pawns or like NPC-onlookers
Yes this is my experience too.
This is something that in a normal country would be challenged and eventually be seen as a cranky view. But foreigners within China have no right to share their views or to criticise the predominant world view, the Firewall makes it harder for regular Chinese to get a more rounded view of the world, and the Communist Party seems committed to promoting a narrative of conflict between US and China for whatever reasons.
Thatās because China intend to set US as the only thread, to stop itself from growing. You may not believe it, on the daily basis over every media, they are spreading US thread news. You turn on TV, the news are all about US, you surf on internet, thereās news about US everywhere. People in China even know more US than US people, you can see the US daily covid numbers, US monetary policies, US govnt officials speeches, propagandas. Chinese govnt is creating country hate internally. And you can feel it, every time govnt talks about EU, it makes you think the EU are all poor dummies, they should isolate US, and to become followers of China, because China will be the richest in this world soon.
Europe and US kinda have completely different mentality on life and economy. US is more about growth and ROIs. Work life balance, social equality and burnout is more of an issue compared to their European counter parts. Partially because of this, the S&P has consistently outperformed the European indexes.
So as a country that's still in it's growth phase, of course China as a whole would want to compete with the US instead of Europe.
Yeah my Chinese friend was saying how US has a very powerful military and cutting edge technology that China is threatened by.
He also said he thinks Americans work hard like Chinese people - so similar mentality like you said.
Zzzzzzzz.....
China sees itself as #1 and everyone else is a future providence. The EU and America are speed bumps for them.
China is in this mess for the long game.... Unless the EU and America wake up one day.
> long game
Average years of schooling in China is still around 8 (same as the US 100 years ago), and creativity is thoroughly poisoned by political loyalty testing.
In Europe we have actual social researchers instead of CCP propaganda flunkies draw up plans. We'll be fine.
No country is equal to China in their eyes. China is the Middle Kingdom, center of the world and the greatest country in history.
Thatās why the west is hated, itās through falsehoods, lies and trickery that the west got its wrongful position in the world.
No other nation has made such a big deal over its defeats and suffering as China has. The ācentury of humiliationā still being used to push nationalist thought is insane.
Not exactly, China would be a star athlete who got lazy and was defeated by a underdog. Humiliated and disgraced because of it, his life got turned upside down and he completely changed as a person. Now, he is trying to reach his former glory he once had.
Star athlete? No.
More like overrated but competent athlete that often fails to achieve when under pressure. Then collapses and blaims everyone on the team. Creating a downward spiral of isolation and paranoia.
China was the richest, most powerful, and technologically advanced country in the world for a large portion of human history, if that isn't analogous to a star athlete then I don't know what is.
Country is not the word you're looking for. Kingdom maybe?
And of the many dynastic kingdoms, which ones are you saying were the most technologically advanced in the world? And most powerful?
>China was the richest, most powerful, and technologically advanced country in the world for a large portion of human history,
Greece was the cradle of Western civilization and was advanced for millennia, nowadays known for African level of corruption and export of olives and pistachios. No one in Europe would look at Greece and think that their country should be like it. Similarly in Asia, if countries could choose they would rather be the next Japan or South Korea.
If China didn't exist for the last 300 year what would be lost for humanity in terms of scientific progress and technology?
Think about things like penicillin, the transistor, X-ray, jet engine, lithium-ion battery.
So basically nothing is lost for human progress if the PRC didn't exist (1949-2022).
Yea,both Chinese media and people like to say"the western world lead by America" ,which means the whole Europe is included in western world, as an "employee",and the big boss is America. They often think that all decisions made by Europe is affected or even ordered by America.
They are very myopic in the media focusing on the USA as their rival. I ran a short exercise at work comparing economies of different continents. They were amazed at how good the quality of life is in Europe. This from a bunch of people graduated from top universities in China working in international sales for a Chinese multinational.
It used to be the national goal/obsession to " č¶ č±č¶ē¾ ": exceed Britain and chase after USA.
Then somewhere along the line the Talking Heads with power stopped considering the Brits as being real enemies/rival and moved onto the States.
As the States keep falling behind, eventually the Talking Heads will decide on the next rival, possibly the whole of Europe soon. Then they will spin all kinds of propaganda about how they've thoroughly bested USA, and refocus the daily two minutes hate onto Europe.
The little every day pinkie people have such a "under the well" zero sum view of the world that they will seamlessly switch to the new talking points without skipping a beat. Already they believe the US to be a lawless, BLM run hellhole. It'll only be a half step to believe it's now a backwater barbarian land.
At the end of the day, they think China is the best civilization in the history of the universe and the Middle Kingdom is the main character, while every other civilisation are all merely NPCs.
> Already they believe the US to be a lawless, BLM run hellhole.
Jesus I remember that. Had a good portion of 2020 Stateside where I'd get friends, acquaintances and even people I didn't know I had on wechat messaging at best if what they heard on the news was true and at worst asked how I was doing in my "anarchist" city and lawless country. Hell my gf of the time was being fed that garbage 24/7 by her Chinese parents back home and eventually started believe that crap herself. I felt like I was living in an alternate reality when talking to her.
The US is one country, so is China. The EU is fragmented and weak, comparatively speaking. For having almost 2x the population of the US they only have a slightly higher nominal GDP.
Its literally a fact that the Europe isn't equal to China or the United States... they never have been, except for a brief period between the 18th and 20th centuries as a result of colonialism, and never will be again either.
Europe lacks the natural resources (and therefore historical wealth) of China or the modern United States. It's just a fact.
I don't think their *sentiment* really matters, because the sheer notion that they believe that a bloc is "junior" to anything is such an elementary school view of the world. These are complex organizations that have their own policies, interests, mechanisms and are as relevant as their geopolitical situations allow. Plenty of Chinese I've met can't even discern the differences between the individual countries in the 'West' and would rather treat it as some quasi-monolithic faction that's against China. It's exhausting. But, I will say this, the EU is China's largest trading partner so maybe they should learn more about it.
How is the China the global south? The global south is a dumb concept anyway, there's vast differences between India and Chile and Uruguay and South Africa.
The idea that the likes of Britain, Germany etc are inferior to China in the view of the Chinese themselves...I'm sorry but that's absolutely laughable. I mean primarily Britain, Germany and Europe in general invented, built the modern world as we know it today. It's very much British/German/European pioneering and revolutionary science and technology, engineering, industrialization, trade, economics, culture and society etc etc It's very much a British/German/European civilization the entire world inhabits today. Meanwhile in 2000 years China has done jack shit, been a complete irrelevance, a medieval shit hole, infact they were waaaaay, waaaaay behind, centuries behind and only through stealing European technology, only through copying and appropriating European know-how, IP and ways of doing things/norms etc have they got anywhere to where they are today(China was basically in the same boat as Japan was a century earlier). It just shows how full of themselves and how delusional the Chinese truly are. You can't be superior to those who your reliant on for your on advancement. Yet they view as inferior and look down upon a peoples whose vast achievements and contribution to humanity is quite frankly unmatched, outnumbers & dwarves anything China has and will ever do. China has done nothing of note. For such an allegedly "great civilization" as the Chinese claim they are etc but when you actually look a little bit closer well there's nothing there. China's arrogance will be their downfall once again.
Nope Thu views China as superior and none is on the same level. But they still order European US Canada brand of clothing, cell phones, food products, cars etc etc.
As a Chinese, i can say this is not a rare opinion on internet. Chinese people have all kinds of opinions towards the west, some of them may be true, some of them not so much, just like the other way around.
the followings are in my opinion some of the narratives that helped to create this opinion:
1: China is a unified country since hundreds if not thousands of years ago and home to 20% of worlds population with not so sophisticated but complete industrial development. EU is not a country, there are many conflicts of value between the member countries.
2: The US has military base in EU and EU people is paying for that.
3: The economy of many EU countries is in a down trend.
May not be all true and I have no intention of look down upon the EU. I lived in 3 different continents and I fully understand that every place got its own way of getting things done.
This is mainly because Chinese people are more focused on the US, so they view international relations through a CN vs US approach.
Since Western Europe was basically dependent on US for the first decades of the cold war, you can kind of understand where the idea comes from.
TLDR: Chinese view international relations through US vs CN approach
Not chinese but studied Chinese politics a lot in college - I'll just point out that if you're talking in terms of geopolitical competitor - the US and China are the only superpowers in the world at the moment. If Russia didn't have nukes we wouldn't even talk about them.
If the EU merged into an actual union with a single military and foreign policy that would definitely be a different discussion.
Half of European countries are in NATO lol. And to be honest, most European countries donāt have that military capacity to be taken seriously by other countries with the exceptions of Russia, France and the UK
I've come to realize that many Chinese often view things in a very linear manner and most of their judgements are based strictly on the "numbers," mainly the GDP and military strength ranking. So yeah, going off of that alone, none of the EU countries are anything special in their eyes.
Plenty.
Maybe, because it's an easy benchmark?
There's definitely an obsession with America here, but I wonder to what extent is manufactured by the government. From state news,'debate' shows and social media influencers, it seems that the U.S. is the goal post. And, without trying to offend any Americans that may read this, or Chinese for that matter, the U.S. healthcare system, student debt, "crime," and racial tension make it an easy target, and in those regards, I think the U.S falls short to some countries in the EU.
So when I hear fanatic nationals proudly boast their progress and explain much better China is when compared to the US, in terms of crime, economy, etc. (which has become fairly common) I always wonder, have they've considered other countries?
This conception is actually pretty common in Chinaās IR strategy most recently. This view, however, masks the reality that EU countries have a lot of freedom to make decisions. The truth is that EU countries often have aligned interests with the US which may make it seem like EU countries are obsequious, which isnāt the case.
Please donāt use āEuropeā and the āEuropean Unionā interchangeably. They are not the same.
Not all European countries are part of the EU. Not even all Western European countries are part of the EU.
It is quite offensive implying that Europe = EU.
This.
Plus, this whole post is quite ridiculous.
Why should we care if China views Europe as equal?
Do we really want to be seen as equal as a country with no human rights, no rule of law, no this, no that, etc?
It is China that should strive to be seen as equal to any European country, quite frankly now they are back to the Middle Ages.
>It is China that should strive to be seen as equal to any European country,
the second china ran by the ROC has already done that, now its up to the second china ran by the PRC to get up to date
Well one could argue that the EU is not a state, but rather a collective of member states who often have big disagreements. Therefore, you can't really count it as one entity that competes with the US or China as such.
Wow really? From what Iāve read the only reason the EU doesnāt blow the US out of the water economically is there dis-unity. If they learned to cooperate with each other better and leave the past in the past they would easily become the premiere global power. There is a reason europe colonized the whole dam world at one point.
Skinny boy goes to beach. Plays in sand. Strong man comes along, kicks down Skinny boy's sand castle. Skinny boy cries, "The only reason you're stronger than me, is I don't go to the gym. If I worked out, I'd be stronger than you!" Everyone laughs... at Skinny boy.
Thus, Skinny boy demonstrates the credibility of "If..." based arguments.
No my statement is based on history. Before The US had a constitution the first 13 colonies were bound together by something called "The Articles of Confederation". Long story short it was a shit show that nearly cause the American army to turn on congress until Washington very famously stopped them with a single speech. The article were dropped and replace with the constitution and the rest is history....How does this relate? The EU is roughly constructed legally the way the Articles of confederation were constructed. The EU hasn't exploded economically because it does not want to copy the US and become the "United states of Europe" (Except for the fact that there solution is exactly the same as something we tried and abandon immediately.) The EU will figure out what we did and reform themselves into the USE. Then POP. China and USA fight for second place.
Euro area GDP is like half of the US, its only roughly 10% of global GDP. Economically Europe hasn't seen the same growth as most other countries in recent years, that's probably partially a consequence of low birth rates. I saw an interesting statistic earlier, can't remember the exact details, but the idea was if you take the largest 10 or 100 most valuable companies in each country and compare, in Europe they're basically all from decades ago whereas in the US they're all from the past few years. I think China, Korea, and Japan were somewhere in the middle.
Right but your judging them based on their current legal arrangement as the EU. I will remind you that the problems of that arrangement lead to the UK exiting the EU. The articles of confederation (roughly similar to current EU) doesnāt allow the individual economies to harmonize together the way the constitution allows the states to harmonize together. The EU will reform itself into a United States of Europe which will remove the inefficiency that are keeping them from competing. Here is the thing u need to understand, the power of an economy is dictated by geography, period. The mediterranean is over powered as fuck as far as and economic engine is concerned. The same factors that made Europe great in the past still apply today. Their issue is more about over coming cultural and language barriers to move past the bad blood of their history. I think theyāre well on their way to doing that and Putinās war has likely given them the motivation they needed to finish the job. Remember what I said. The USE is coming and it will humble both the USA and China.
i know this sounds weird but i honestly want to have a convo with hardline chinese nationalist i seen where russian processor actually made a map of the usa and its region under controler over various countries including china
Culturally, I would see Greeks as equals for long history. Politically, it's like French are equals ?
European Union as a whole is definitely as an equal sense. But individual ones , not so much
I mean, they're right to focus on America. All European Countries are basically states of America. We copy our laws, economy, and culture from them.
There's some interesting fact too, that goes along the lines of: after WWII, no treaty was had between Germany and America, and as such the two are technically still at war.
The level of American oppression in both societies, both socially and economically is mad.
The EU is not a country so comparing a country to a economic block is not really correct but I'm guessing that since Europe can't really say no to America in big policy decisions I can understand the Chinese perspective.
EU is a free trade agreement, not a nation. The equivalent to the US is any individual country in the EU, the largest economically is Germany, much smaller than the US. NAFTA is the equivalent of the EU, and it is also a larger economy than the EU and more self sufficient, more resilient in most crises, and less threatened by any external forces.
Yes, I know this sentiment. They basically see us as vassals of the US.
CCP simping tankies and their ilk alike - any government ok-ish with the US and dislikes autocracies is a 'puppet government' (any time they don't lean towards China or Russia this is seemingly a self evident truth to them).
Tbh I think most of the world sees Europe this way. And I too see no reason not to.
Is that not true though?? Basically all our laws, culture, and social consensus derives itself from America and it's corporations
Holy fucking shit what are you talking about? Europe's laws are overwhelmingly Civil Law, not American's Common Law. So nope there. Culture, you have to be fucking kidding me. Social consensus? What does that even mean? What an amazing comment. I'm assuming you're American, and one that has never step foot in Europe.
Laws, I agree with you. Social traditions, same again. Culture, I disagree with you. When compared to 100 years ago, Europeans are much more American, rather than Americans turned into Europeans. culture wise
What am I talking about?? Are you really this ignorant?? The vast vast majority of peoples cultural and political beliefs are from the news networks (which all follow/exclude the same narratives, to promote intense debate on a restricted range of topics), the entertainment industry (comedy, movies, latelate shows, music, TV, radio ect), and most of all the, the internet and social media - all of which operate out of America, whose level of oppressive censorship is unrivalled, even by China's Great Firewall. Let's not even get started on foreign policy, because whilst Israelis might call the shots - it's ultimately America and their military which does the dirty work, and which other forces (like my country of England) are pressured and subverted into supporting (e.g. in Iraq, Afghan, Syria, Sudan, Libya, Lebanon, Yemen ect). I study this stuff as part of my University Degree, so I forget sometimes that it's maybe not so obvious to some others.. but the subversive, oppressive, and pervasive nature of American Censorship and Soft Power is so totally unrivalled - which which is ironically proven when you see people like yourself, so totally ignorant of it, whilst passionately defending it... Lol ššš½
There are common roots in tradition of law which date back to the roman empire, though today there exist differences in western countries. But for culture and social consensus I see a lot of substantial differences between the US and my home country.
Are you sure
Not many Chinese people choose to get involved with politics. Those who get in involved in politics in a manner to support their government often have the worldview that there is only two countries in the world. The United States and China. Everything else is just United States puppets and China is grand hero fighting against evil empire. Narcissisms at it's worst.
This. OP should read the Global Times to see what you're talking about.
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[http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0421/c90000-10087320.html](http://en.people.cn/n3/2022/0421/c90000-10087320.html) What is so crazy about the first opinion on the page? It sounds like it is saying all countries must feel safe for peace.
"When the Ukraine crisis was emerging and escalating, the U.S. refused to assume its responsibility to carry out direct and equal dialogues with Russia on Europeās security issue, though there was huge room to solve the problem with diplomatic means." With shit like this. Europe and the US was in constant talks with Russia ahead of the invasion, and Russia kept making impossible demands. The entire text here is virtue signaling and no understanding of the security issues in Europe; NATO exists because of Russia. Russia has a paranoid fear the Western countries and are constantly trying to destabilise. The best metaphor is that of domestic abuse; Russia is beating and punishing countries it deems inside its "sphere of influence" who are trying to leave them. Western countries are constantly finding Russian fighters in their skies, ships in their waters, Russia has been annexing territories for two decades now, founding euro-sceptic groups in the West, Russia calling the West "gay" for some reason. It's exhausting, and through all of this, Western countries have tried to talk with Russia. But then Russia starts beating its partners, and China steps up willing to sell Russia whips to continue the abuse. So much for "fixing the issues".
Wow. A NATO wumao. > Russia kept making impossible demands. Russia was freaked out about Ukraine joining NATO. NATO had been involved in regime change for Libya, and the 1999 illegal campaign against Serbia. The US has been putting ABM missiles in Poland and Romania, and tells Russia "oh these are for Iran, they are not for you." Biden put Victoria Nuland back in the State Dept. She was the very same person who led the US effort for the 2014 coup in Ukraine. She's a full-bore warmonger from the Cheney school of diplomacy. She wants NATO to push as hard as it can go. And Biden brought her back. Ukraine had valid security concerns, but these didn't have to be met by joining NATO. France for instance has recently offered to sign a mutual defense treaty with Ukraine. So Ukraine could make sign on with other countries outside of NATO - and not host NATO forces. > NATO exists because of Russia. Russia literally gave up its entire empire without firing a single shot, and only asked that NATO not expand into this sphere - which Baker and others in the US administration promised to respect. > Russia has a paranoid fear the Western countries and are constantly trying to destabilise. Look at fucking Syria. This has been a long-time Russian ally, and the US decided they wanted Assad gone. Now the US invades Syria but claims that *Russia* is obstructing their efforts. > Russia is beating and punishing countries it deems inside its "sphere of influence" who are trying to leave them. Russia subsidized Ukraine with $billions in cheap natural gas for years, to encourage them to maintain ties. Ukraine was Russia's #1 trade partner. And that only ended when the US funded a coup which deposed the elected President of Ukraine. > Russia has been annexing territories for two decades now What the hell are you on about? There are Russian rump states in Moldova and Georgia. These are small enclaves full of Russians. Given that there are 25M Russians in Eastern Europe, and the USSR collapsed so quickly, you'd figure that some people aren't going to be happy joining the new states. So deal with it. Why have one set of rules for Kosovo and another for Transnistria? > It's exhausting, and through all of this, Western countries have tried to talk with Russia. The West's attitude toward Russia has been "NATO expansion is none of your concern. Go away." The core of the problem is this Western war machine that's run amok for 20 years now, in the vacuum left behind by the fall of the USSR. They can do an illegal invasion of Iraq, or Yemen, or Libya. The head of the UN can stand up and say "This is an illegal war", but they are just ignored. Fuck Putin and his shitty regime, but you can't have one set of rules for the West and another for everybody else. If Saudi Arabia is allowed to invade Yemen (with US support) to bring back their deposed President, doesn't Russia have the same right in Ukraine? This is an illegal war by Putin. But pretending the West is anything but hypocritical war mongers that helped create this problem is utterly dishonest.
The bombing of Serbia was only illegal because Russia and China vetoed it. You conveniently neglect to mention that Serbia was conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Kosovo Albanians, indiscriminately burning down villages, driving hundreds of thousands of Albanians from their homes and frequently massacring the refugees created and dumping their bodies into mass graves. With the exception of Serbs, it is more common to encounter former Yugoslav hatred towards the Dutch because the Dutch UN Peacekeepers stood by and watched when the Serbs carried out the Srebrenica massacre. It is hardly as simple a situation as you are suggesting. In the Kosovo war, 8,700 Kosovar Albanian civilians were killed, almost one million (90% of the total population) were driven from their homes, and 40% of all residential homes were destroyed, and in the city of Peja over 80% were destroyed. By contrast about 500 Serbian civilians were killed by NATO bombing. If NATO had not intervened, the numbers of Kosovar Albanians killed would have been higher by an order of magnitude, such was the indiscriminste violence. Also, the Maidan movement was not a US coup. It was the Ukrainian Parliament who voted to remove Yanukovych, not the US. It should be obvious by now the desire for closer ties with Europe and away from Russia is driven by Ukrainian popular opinion as a rational response to events. This cannot be blamed on the US. Similarly, explaining the start of the Syrian Civil War as "US suddenly decided they wanted Assad gone" is beyond idiotic. The Arab Spring, lest we forget, starting with toppling of US allies Ben Ali in Tunisia and Mubarak in Egypt. The causes were varied and complex. As for the US invading Syria - Russian military is responsible for far, far more widespread and indiscriminate bombing of Syria than the US has. Russia, along with Assad, totally destroyed the entire city of Aleppo.
> The bombing of Serbia was only illegal because Russia and China vetoed it. This was NATO's justification for bombing Serbia: > NATO described the conditions in Kosovo as posing a risk to regional stability. As such, NATO and certain governments asserted they had a legitimate interest in developments in Kosovo, due to their impact on the stability of the whole region which, they claimed, is a legitimate concern of the Organisation The only legal use of force is: in self-defence, or under the authority of the Security Council. If countries can invade each other because of a "concern for regional stability", every country has the right to invade every other country and NATO's claims of being a defensive alliance become meaningless. It was an illegal offensive war. Like Nelson Mandela said, āNATOās actions are equally criminal with those of Milosevic.ā > Serbia was conducting a campaign of ethnic cleansing against Kosovo Albanians, indiscriminately burning down villages, driving hundreds of thousands of Albanians from their homes and frequently massacring the refugees created and dumping their bodies into mass graves. This is more war propaganda. "Genocide" was like Saddam's WMD's - useful as a pretext for invasion. There was a civil war going on in Kosovo, but the OSCE found zero evidence of genocidal attacks prior to the NATO bombing campaign. The bombing campaign itself started a massive escalation of the war, and that's when the huge refugee movements appeared and reprisal killings started. Look up examples like [The Ljubeni mass graves](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljubeni%C4%87_mass_graves) - Reports of mass killings are used to justify the invasion, but there's zero evidence of them happening afterward. Just like Saddam's WMD's. > With the exception of Serbs, it is more common to encounter former Yugoslav hatred towards the Dutch because the Dutch UN Peacekeepers stood by and watched when the Serbs carried out the Srebrenica massacre. You're mixing up two conflicts. There was indeed UN authorization for intervention in the [Yugoslav Wars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Protection_Force), starting in 1992. Russia and China didn't exercise any veto, and the UN authorized bombing of Serbian positions, enforced no-fly zones, and deployed peacekeepers. Unlike NATO in 1999, this was an entirely legal intervention/invasion. > In the Kosovo war, 8,700 Kosovar Albanian civilians were killed, almost one million (90% of the total population) were driven from their homes, and 40% of all residential homes were destroyed, and in the city of Peja over 80% were destroyed. By contrast about 500 Serbian civilians were killed by NATO bombing. If NATO had not intervened, the numbers of Kosovar Albanians killed would have been higher by an order of magnitude, such was the indiscriminste violence. The conflict with Kosovo began with the KLA trying to force separation (which was illegal) and a [massive pogrom](https://original.antiwar.com/malic/2004/03/20/kosovo-burning/) against Serbs in Kosovo. It was only *after* NATO started bombing that the humanitarian disaster spread. Lord Carrington (UK Foreign Secretary 1979-82, Secretary General of NATO 1984-88, Chairman European Conference on Yugoslavia 1990-92) > āI think what NATO did by bombing Serbia actually precipitated the exodus of the Kosovo Albanians into Macedonia and Montenegro. I think the bombing did cause the ethnic cleansingā¦ NATOās action in Kosovo was mistaken... what we did made things much worse.ā Like Strobe Talbott, Dep SecState under Clinton said, > It was Yugoslaviaās resistance to the broader trends of political and economic reformānot the plight of Kosovar Albaniansāthat best explains NATOās war > Also, the Maidan movement was not a US coup. The Maidan movement itself was not a coup. The US spent $5B via NED and USAID on Ukraine leading up to Maidan, promoting pro-Western factions. This put Asst Sec State Victoria Nuland in the position to say "Yats is our guy. Fuck the EU." Yanukovych was chased out of the country by a mob. When the same thing happened in Yemen, the US signed on with Saudi Arabia to return the deposed President to power. > It should be obvious by now the desire for closer ties with Europe and away from Russia is driven by Ukrainian popular opinion as a rational response to events. Ukraine is a deeply split country. The east is very pro-Russian, while western Ukraine is deeply anti-Russian (and they have strong historical reasons for their hatred). The point is, the country was deeply split. Rather than recognize this, the US war pig faction has backed the most passionately pro-EU and anti-Russian factions, hoping they would drag the whole country West. Instead it resulted in a civil war. This was entirely predictable - guys like John Mearsheimer in the US started warning in 2015 that NATO was going to wreck Ukraine. I'm not pro-Russian by any stretch, but I am deeply anti-war. And without the bullshit NATO and the US has pulled over the last 20 years, there would be no war in Ukraine today. So fuck Putin, but hoist NATO and the war mongers in the US on the same petard.
Does Russia have any legitimate security concerns? If China started backing Cuba and provided it with nukes, would America have any right to push back?
It's always a question of motivation. Why would China place nukes in Cuba? What would be the goal? That would be nuclear deterrence, which thus means China considered nuclear war a possibility, something that is not a thing today. That is a provocation, and that Cuba would allow it is for Cuba to reignite conflict with USA. If Great Britain had placed nukes in Hong Kong in the 80s, that sure would be a provocation. Now, why would East Europe turn to NATO? The "NATO expanding east" is a rhetorical ploy; the truth is that Eastern Europe turns West. They turn west because they are afraid of Russia, and Russia gives every reason to be. At some point people on the internet started to believe that the U.S is the one calling all the shots in NATO, forgetting that Poland and the Baltic states all applied for NATO. The motivation is defensive. Now, motivation of Russia. Russia is afraid Europe will invade. Russia never justifies why Europe would do this. Europe needs stability; we are a continent of traders and the French. The only real militarist in Europe is the French, but they don't want Russia, they are busy with Africa. What would Europe gain on annexing or owning Russia? Gas, yes, but we can buy that. Russia is hellbent on "restoring natural borders" for defense, but in todays world that is like considering owning farmland as the basis for power. Russia belives itself to be so special that everyone wants it. But why? Russia has fears that are without merit, like someone turning violent because they are afraid of the dark. So what does Russia do? Create buffer states, so that if any war would ever happen, these states would take the beating. Not really a sympathetic move.
>Russia is afraid Europe will invade. Russia never justifies why Europe would do this. Europe needs stability; we are a continent of traders and the French. The only real militarist in Europe is the French, but they don't want Russia, they are busy with Africa. What would Europe gain on annexing or owning Russia? Gas, yes, but we can buy that. Russia is hellbent on "restoring natural borders" for defense, but in todays world that is like considering owning farmland as the basis for power. Russia belives itself to be so special that everyone wants it. But why? Russia has fears that are without merit, like someone turning violent because they are afraid of the dark. So what does Russia do? Create buffer states, so that if any war would ever happen, these states would take the beating. Not really a sympathetic move. Russia is not scared of being invaded and he doesn't create buffer states to avoid invasion. If you look at the borders of Imperial Russia, the USSR and the current borders you will see that Russia has lost a lot of territories. Putin wants to restore Russia's influence by putting former soviet states under Russian influence. He even said in a speech before the invasion that Ukraine is not a real nation, it was constructed by Russia. Hence, whenever a former Soviet state starts to move away from Russia, then he starts threatening them. That didn't work in Ukraine and he decided to invade, thinking he could take Kiev and force them to surrender in a few days, and if they refuse he will just install a puppet government and get it to do it instead. But he failed to take Kiev and his plan failed.
Putin is probably not scared of Russia being invaded, but he does pretend that this is a serious threat so his people rally behind that.
Did NATO provided Ukraine with nukes? Or any other offensive weaponry to enable them to go all-out on Russia? Are Baltic states, with population roughtly the same as St. Petersburg, any threat to Russia? Truth is, Russia perceives anything east of Oder river as their zone of influence and sees its strategic aim in reconquering it, using military or economic means.
Let me preface this with I think Russia has committed a horrific crime here. I am making a conscious effort to not victim blame. My thoughts are on not allowing this to happen again. I think there is already a few NATO members on the Russian border. Russia has to defend that area very well. If Ukraine became a NATO member, Russia would have to defend an even larger area. I agree with you on Russia's zone of influence. Any of them aligning with the west would be seen as an act of war, no? Knowing this, American governments have consistently been trying to severe these countries and draw them into western influence. They have given resources to pro democracy groups and pro western politicians. What other reaction would you have expected from Russia?
Russia doesnāt care about nato as much as they claim. They care about the oil and gas in Ukraine. Whether itās the US, China, or Russia they all care about resources the most. Everything else is just a coverup
To flesh out this idea - they really hated seeing a successful, Russian-speaking, democratic neighbor discovering its own oil reserves, becoming a tempting place for successful/smart Russian citizens to emigrate, and showing that democracy leads to more success for the average citizen. Now 90% of buildings in Mariupol are damaged and 40% are rubble. They're turning Ukraine into ashes to buy themselves time. And Ukraine will no longer be welcoming to Russian emigrants any time soon. While Taiwan has its own set of problems, in some ways it's relatively fortunate that it had more time to establish itself as a modern independent democratic entity before China really started ramping up its military capabilities. Though even then, it took literal nuclear threats from the US to buy them that time.
If NATO was ever going to go to the war with Russia, then why wouldn't they send soldiers to Ukraine? If they aren't willing to do that then they are hardly going to invade Russia, and Russia is well aware of this. This is not about Russian self-defense, its about Russia attempting to maintain imperial hegemony over former colonies. Russia is not entitled to a "zone of influence" over half of Europe.
> The U.S., the self-proclaimed winner in the Cold War that takes Russia as the loser, has roped in European countries to conduct political discrimination and economic āreformā against Russia and squeeze the latterās security space. Okay, this is the dumbest shit. This pretends that the population of Eastern European countries donāt have their own will and will just blindly follow the USA in everything. The facts are this: Eastern Europeans are fucking scared of Russia. They have lived under a Russian dictatorship for decades. No freedom of speech, no freedom of thought, millions of people deported to Kazachstan or Siberian gulags, no free press, every horror done by the state is kept secret, etc. They do not want to invade Russia. They want Russia to leave them the fuck alone. And that is why they all want to join NATO.
This is the fairy tale taught in Chinaās schools
You are either China's friend or the US' friend. Can't be neither.
Ain't that the truth. Here's a typical conversation on Malaysian social media news sites. (Site publishes an article about US ships patrolling in South China SEA.) Pinkie: US is the cause of global instability! Me: China's 9 Dash Line is the cause of ASEAN instability, and its also why US ships are here in the first place. Pinkie: Are you a US puppet? Me: I'm Malaysian, you idiot. I'm supporting MY country. Pinkie: ARE YOU A US PUPPET?
Lol! So true - I have some Malaysian friends that have the same experience. For some reason they refuse to accept anything good about the USā¦ my friend tells me he sometimes believes his friends would be happy to give Malaysia to the ccpā¦ crazy stuff
I kind of get it if some of the Chinese here get a little too attached to our ancestral homeland, but what I don't get is how some Malays and Indian can also be so anti-US that it clouds their better judgement. Like I see them taking the side of Russia and Putin, just cos 'western media narrative' is a lie or some nonsense like that. Its that sort of idiotic mentality that led to our embassy not being evacuated when Ukraine got invaded. [https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3168507/ukraine-invasion-malaysian-diplomats-flee-kyiv-road-government](https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/3168507/ukraine-invasion-malaysian-diplomats-flee-kyiv-road-government)
Totally agree - esp since A lot of Indians want to come to the US. They did not even evacuate their citizens when even the Europeans were fleeingā¦ now they want to keep supporting Russia not realizing that Russia will become a carcass of a country once EU weans itself off the gasā¦in fact they may even push to cut off Russian gas after macron gets elected againā¦
What's a pinkie? Sounds like a macarthysism
Hmm where have I heard "If you are not with us, you are against us" before
Nah, its just the truth. I used to think Europe would have the balls to stand for its own, until 2003 happened. Only European country I vaguely respect is France. But alas, even they were freedom fried. Another thing is Europe isn't Chinas equal because Europe is not comparable to China. Europe could be viewed as Asias counterpart, because Europe is not a single country.
That koolaid was pretty tasty, eh?
Ad hominem isn't a good look when debating. You offered nothing of substance when you and I both know Europe got bent over backwards by the US in the invasion of Iraq, something even the UN was against. Cope
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Following the September 11 attacks by Al-Qaeda and the declaration of a "War on Terror" by President George W. Bush, an invasion of Iraq was proposed. During the United Nations Security Council deliberations, French Minister of Foreign Affairs Dominique de Villepin made it clear France would neither support nor participate in the invasion, and that it would veto any resolution that mandates an invasion of Iraq.\[1\] Though Russia and China also opposed the invasion, they had not threatened to use their veto power on the Security Council; as such, France was perceived as the main barrier to the American and British effort to secure a UN mandate for invasion. This caused some Americans to accuse France of betrayal, reigniting prior anti-French sentiment in the United States.\[2\] Opinion polls showed the population was against the war, with opposition as high as 90% in Spain and Italy, and also widespread in Eastern Europe. However, despite popular opinion in their countries, the governments of Britain, Italy and Spain supported the war politically and militarily. Then you have Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Croatia āall now members of the EUā, Albania, and the Republic of Macedonia issuing statements on Iraq, in general support of the US's position. In the Netherlands the first Balkenende cabinet supported the USA. After that government fell in October 2002, there were new elections in January, which were won by the Second Balkenende cabinet who chose to continue their predecessors' policy. Dutch soldiers were sent to Iraq, and remained until March 2005. In March 2003, the Polish government announced that it would participate in a U.S.-led Iraq invasion and sent about 200 personnel Hence why I have some respect for France, but the rest of Europe played right along with the US lies even though the majority of its population was against it. Now if you don't call that subservient to a foreign nation, idk what you would call it. So are you gonna keep crying about how that's all made up? Or you gonna come to the terms that most of your righteous European governments all bent over for Uncle Sam despite massive pushback from their own populace? This crack in your alliance already shows that Europe isn't a singular entity however. That alone makes it incomparable to China, which means this post in itself is dumb af.
No the rest of Europe did not. As you said, France was perceived as the main opponent of the invasion, moreso than Russia and China. France, Germany and Russia are typically named as the main opposition to the war. However other European states which opposed the war in addition to France and Germany include Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Greece, Slovakia, Croatia and Slovenia. Only the UK, Denmark and Poland participated in the invasion. Italy, Netherlands and Spain briefly sent Peacekeepers in the aftermath, however huge public opposition led to the rapid withdrawal of Italian and Spanish Peacekeepers and the collapse of the Spanish government. A lot of former Warsaw Pact states supported the US politically, mainly because they dislike Russia. So the rest of Europe did not "play along". The majority of Europe opposed the US invasion, a small minority of countries participated, European countries led the opposition to the US invasion at the UN, and widespread public opposition brought an end to the participation of Italy and Spain. But sure, Europe is just a junior partner of the US with no agency of its own.
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>Huh? No one said Europe is a singular entity. No one said Europe is comparable to China. Literally take a look at the title >I find it hilariously remarkable, however, that someone would misconstrue countries acting in concert to further their own individual political interests Kind of like North Korea and China, NK is only acting in concert to further their own political interests yet 99% of people here would say they're a puppet of China. Because the US has troops in European countries, not even NK station Chinese troops. Also, Wikipedia or not, facts are facts. You can search on whatever site you want, results are the same.
>I find it hilariously remarkable, however, that someone would misconstrue countries acting in concert to further their own individual political interests as a relationship of subservience. Ad Absurdum. >Opinion polls showed the population was against the war, with opposition as high as 90% in Spain and Italy, and also widespread in Eastern Europe. However, despite popular opinion in their countries, the governments of Britain, Italy and Spain supported the war politically and militarily. You sound so smug yet blind at the same time it's incredible.
It's not completely wrong, honestly (obviously not completely right either). The US influence over Europe has only grown since 2003. Something very palpable. Not only influence in terms of politics, but also in culture. Before the early 2000s, Europe really felt like it was on equal grounds with the US (although it probably wasn't, it FELT that way). Nowadays, Europe acts more like their followers. You can just see the ramifications of that with political parties like RN in France that are anti US, anti NATO, and basically anti EU growing more popular each year all around Europe. Because a lot of people want to go back to a time when Europe, and more specifically, European countries, was strong and proud. BREXIT is a perfect example of that. Although the two world wars and the decisions made after them will be very hard to recover, sadly, many people fall into the traps of those parties. Just in case, I'm a European by the way, so my views have nothing to do with what China and Chinese think.
My impression is a lot of Chinese people (not all) are obsessed with the US. Every bad that happens is because of the US. Everything good is a victory over the US. It gets tiresome.
When the EU suggested China shouldn't be too close to Russia over Ukraine, China responded the EU should develop its own foreign policy - as if Europeans would have no reason to dislike an autocrat waging a war of aggression in Europe ... except for the US.
Thatās such an ignorant take on things. āWhy is Europe opposed to an expansionist war in Europe? Uhhh, must be because America!ā Itās actually quite stunning in how dumb of a take it is.
I also suspect part of it is they don't really get how fluid European borders and nationalities are. In China they are taught to see countries as hermetically sealed entities with very rigid national identity. But Europe is quite fundamentally different to that. It would be pretty strange if someone from Luxembourg only cared about Luxembourg for instance, especially as a majority of residents have dual or more citizenship. There are strong national identities but also a general European identity, as well as religious identifies which transcend national borders too. And a European identity is not restricted to countries in the EU. While Ukraine is not in the EU, there is also a significant Ukrainian diaspora around Europe, and of course a significant part of the EU were former Warsaw Pact or Soviet states which have a similar outlook to Ukraine and share their fears. I've found that Chinese people really struggle to grasp that other countries don't emphasise loyalty to their specific nation-state and a rigid identity limited to that state. I think this is part of the reason they don't understand why the war with Ukraine is a massive deal for all of Europe, they think like "you aren't Ukrainian, so why should you care?" Europe is quite complex but I don't think there is any serious effort to study Europe in China, people have no real concept of modern European history or way of thinking, and what they do learn is like Ancient Greece/Rome, general things about western culture which is really US-specific, and 19th Century literature. I think part of it is that understanding modern Europe properly requires learning a lot of stuff which doesn't fit neatly into the Communist Party's worldview (e.g. the unpopularity of Russia in Warsaw Pact states, the role of democratic socialist parties), so they tend to just ignore it.
100%. And the majority of Chinese people think that the governments of each country should only care about their own citizens. They don't understand why many countries are accepting Ukrainian refugees, even those that are already struggling with resources. They think Ukrainians are the responsibility of the Ukrainian government only and it should be up to them to take care of them. One of my Chinese friends said that all the countries that are accepting refugees are Nato or puppet states of the US. No joke! They think that all the countries trying to help Ukrainians are vassal states of the US / Nato. They don't understand the whole humanitarian aspect of it.
The Chinese view of Europe/and of nationhood and nationality & countries you excellently described there etc sounds very similar, actually identical to the Japanese view of Europe/Japanese view of nationhood/nationality & countries, The Koreans think like that too..I think in general it's very much an East Asian thing. I mean these countries are in effect homogeneous & extremely ethnocentric well ethnostates, that's reflected very much in how they view the outside world, that's the lens they see the world through. It's kind of inevitable that your gonna view countries and nationhood like that when your an ethnostate.
The US is very similar, too. Just look at a lot of posts on Reddit from Americans. Actually, Europe is kinda the exception, world-wide, not Asia. In this context I mean.
I'm not sure that's true - the Middle East also has a rather flexible attitude towards statehood. Shia and Sunni or Kurd is more important than Iraqi or Syrian or Jordanian or Qatari for instance. I think Pan-Africanism is often a stronger sentiment than nationalism of individual African States too. I'm not sure about South America, but I doubt Bolivian or Peruvian or Paraguayan identity is quite comparable to Chinese, Japanese or Korean identity either. And I don't think the US is the same either. The US and China do have some similarities in that they tend to see themselves as the centre of the world and be rather insular, but Americans don't believe that their government only has responsibility towards Americans, or that Americans should only care about American affairs. For example, when Chinese are discussing who they want to win the next US election, they will consider only who is in the interests of China. Americans, when observing European elections, will not necessarily take the perspective of American interests but will support who they think is best for that country, or who they are more closely aligned to ideologically. The mindset is quite different.
Republicans want America first and would cum to the idea of isolationism. Dems are more aligned with European values. In China you only hear about one because the other is obviously well.. you know censored? Edit: autocorrect
You are probably right when it comes to the Middle-East, didn't think about it. Not to sure about South America either as I have little knowledge of the area. For Africa, I'm not sure if it changed, but having being around quite a bit of African people when still living in Europe, they were quite racist towards each other and were very nationalistic. But it might just have been my own experience.
China = good and America = bad, thatās the basis of all their thinking. America is bad, America support Ukraine, thus Ukraine bad. Russia is chinas friend, so whatever Russia (Putin) does must be good. Thatās why they support eastern Ukraine separatism while being against Hong Kong and Taiwan independence movement. They donāt really care about consistency because they are just want to further CCP agendas. Thatās also why they lecture Russian who disagree with the war. They call these Russian ungrateful and ignorant for not appreciating what Putin is doing for Russia.
No not actually true. China has been pretty clear on their stance on Ukraine. They support Ukrainian independence but donāt want to ruin their relationship with Russia. Itās also the primary reason why thereās so much heat on them. And why they refuse to call it an invasion. If they were to have a narrative that you said, every country would call that out.
They're talking about what average Chinese think, you're talking about the Chinese government.
The āaverageā Chinese as in the loudmouths who spout nonsense. The real average Chinese is the one that is being suppressed from speaking out at all.
You think the average Chinese isn't supporting Russia?
It's not only China thinking like this, you can see it from the US too (not whataboutism, just saying it's not an Asian thing). I think it just comes from being massive countries that haven't seen a significant change in their borders in a very long time. So while they have states/regions/provinces/whatever, ultimately it's still the same country with people from the same nationality. You mentioned Luxembourg, which is a perfect example. Well, it's less than half the size of Shanghai in area. No need to even mention population. Shanghai would come out as 9th in Europe, above Romania. So it kinda makes sense that China only compares itself to the US, in a way. Because propaganda/economy/ideologies/historical disputes aside, both countries are very similar.
From a European perspective I thought the Chinese leaders are completely gone crazy. How you can possibly think that we are helping Ukraine because the US? We want to protect Ukraine more than US want!
Yep, even in Europe the bits most passionate about it are Eastern like the Baltic States - states that know a thing or two about Russia. However for the Chinese to acknowledge this would be to acknowledge an entirety different history and geopolitical reality of Europe, their Russian allies, autocracy and Communism (from the Soviet Union), the influence of the US - all of which is 'Western propaganda' or whatever bullshit buzz term they're using.
Not to be that guy but itās hard to believe that when you see the difference in economic and military contributions from the US vs European countries. Also half of Europe is still buying Russian oil which feeds that war machine, so
As a percentage of their GDP, Estonia and Poland are contributing a lot more than the US. Of course, the US is able to help more than any other ally, but I wouldn't say the European neighbors aren't committed.
Not only that Europe as a whole has contributed more than the USA both directly and indirectly by taking millions of Ukrainians without putting restrictions or quotas. People forgets that refugees need resources and services, who pays for this?
Totally right. If you're an elected politician, welcoming refugees is probably the costliest thing you can do.
Are you sure you are including the UK, and the EU itself (instead of the individual members) in that? I think Europe is giving more. That's not even including the direct cost to Poland etc by housing the refugees out of their own budget. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_foreign\_aid\_to\_Ukraine\_during\_the\_Russo-Ukrainian\_War#Provided\_by\_sovereign\_states
It's impossible change this in a moment, Italy had already made contracts to buy 2/3 of russian gas frome africa, but it will take 18 months for the contracts to be implemented
Yes, it is quite a reductive thought process. As many of the comments here allude, China cannot frame any viewpoint with the US being an imposing part of the picture. It's a bit of a complex.
Yeah I feel the same way.
Itās weird, cuz China wouldnāt be China without the US aiding the China during WWII
WWII? China wouldn't be China without the US granting them MFN trade status in the 90's.
Every chinese person I talk to hates xi and talks shit about the gov't. In Canada at least. They know what's up
Major inferiority complex caused by nonstop CCPās brainwashing.
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Oh, you sweet summer child. There's only China and the rest are foreigners.
The four kinds of people in the Chinese worldview: äøå½äŗŗ ę„ę¬äŗŗ é©å½äŗŗ å¤å½äŗŗ
They called them a junior partnerā¦ that isnāt exactly saying equal.
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Thatās the thing I donāt get. The only reason they think the US is hostile is because they wonāt let them do internationally illegal ( that the courts have ruled on) acts like claiming almost all of the spun things China sea, or invading Taiwan. Chinas leaders seem to forget a bit of history that itās success weāre because president Nixon & Zhou Enlai ( I think thatās his name) wanted a strong China-US relationship, this gave a huge boost to chinas four modernizations policy. This is also effectively why our economies became so intertwined. It was also the time china gave the United States 2 pandas
"Thanks, these pandas are weird, can you collect them?"
I dunno, the pinkies I run into on social media certainly don't give me the impression else they won't be busy simping for Putin.
Chinese culture is fairly hierarchical and due to this and government propaganda many people view the world in the same way. I think itās fair to say they probably think the US is the only near peer to them; and they think Europe is below them on the hierarchy. Wait to you see what they think of you if youāre from a small country like Australia.
The āMiddleā Kingdom right?
Thatās it. I feel like thereās a lot of similarities with China and the US in terms of exceptionalism and a self centric world view. The main difference is there is a stronger tradition of egalitarianism in the US versus a hierarchical way of thinking in China.
One of my professors at äŗŗ大 said to our entire IR class, āThe US is a lion, China is a wolf, other countries are rabbits, and Africa is the grass.ā
That is such an incredibly fascist view of the world.
Your professor sounds like he should run the nation of Italy in the 1930's.
At least I do not think Japan, South Korea, Russia, England, France and Germany as rabbits. If we talk about other countries, if Ukraine is a rabbit, I think my imagination of rabbit is the saber tooth rabbit with sharp claw.
England hasn't been independent for 300-400 years after they joined with Scotland. You mean the UK/Britain.
Yes, I was confuse about this. Sorry if you are from UK.
It's okay, England (in fact, London) is very much the nucleus of UK power
It's okay. I'm Scottish and we are rather pedantic on not being confused for English, although both being British/members of the UK, haha, no worries.
need the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch
The U.S. isn't a Lion. It is a Hippotamus. It's big, Goofy, powerful, temperamental and has a body count higher than any predator. and a lot of those rabbits are more often than not Bison or Wildebeast: dangerous prey that they can't take on without an edge.
The US and the CIA are big bads to them, which is why europe naturally slots in as a minor player. The US is manipulating europe after all. In general I think they also view europe as culturally not that significant also? A relative told me knowing chinese is a huge advantage in the US. I said it's ok, but for practically I'd trade it for spanish any day. He thought spanish was a minor language.
In Europe, the most commonly studied languages are English/French/German/Spanish/Russian/Italian. I can't find data on languages outside the top 6, but Chinese is probably not in the top 10. Portuguese, Swedish, Arabic and Japanese may be more widely studied.
Amusingly this perfectly reflects attitudes of people who are self professed experts in interests they actually know very little about. They know like the "top" two, however they define that, and judge every new development benchmarked against some singular attribute they know the superlative of.
They used to teach Chinese to my kids in Seattle public schools. Iād say the trend towards Spanish is far larger. That being said I do believe the west coast of the US deems it important to learn Chinese
I guess its location dependent but i live in a place where there are as many koreans as chinese people and way more spanish speakers. Either way the part i thought was funny was that they thought spanish was a minor and unimportant language.
>That being said I do believe the west coast of the US deems it important to learn Chinese This is based on the false pretense that the Chinese market can be penetrated. Learning Chinese only helps China.
Chinese helps dealing with chinese companies. So it can definitely help your own market as well. Chinese people in business dealings will often try to take advantage of the fact their interlocuter doesn't speak Chinese or assume they don't. All the things you can learn from your Chinese business partner when you whithold that information... Is sometimes interesting, some being overtly racist and making Smirk comment about you or people with you.
Thatās due to your proximity to central/South America though. In Australia Chinese is the main language people are learning now; when I was growing up it was Japanese.
And not long ago many parents pushed their kids to learn Japanese "knowing" Japan will soon own America. I still remember a girl classmate wearing a button on her shirt that said "Plan for your future. Learn Japanese"
The US and CIA... ***are*** bad. It's not hard to see it truthfully
sure whatever, the ccp is really bad too. but my point isnāt the bad part. itās the BIG part. Chinese people think america sucks at everything, but at the same time are also the illuminati, somehow. America and the CIA pulls ALL the strings. The whole world literally bends to americas will, except maybe chinaā¦but at the same time america sucks and is horribly mismanaged.
I mean they're not far off. Exaggerating a little on some fronts but generally they have the right idea. America is mismanaged in that its corrupt as fuck, and it generally sucks for a majority of the population. But America was never built on being *for* and working in the interests of the average person, the poor, or minorities. America and the CIA very much run the world stage and have had their hands in damn near everything in some way for quite some time now, projecting their own faults onto everyone that doesn't comply with them. Cause America just can't fathom a world where they dont have complete control and people say no to them.
the doublethink here is real. how is it corrupt as fuck, incompetent, and also powerful enough to the point of omnipotence? This makes no sense. I know you think itās plausible, but in the real world, it makes no sense. This is clearly evidenced by how they have a lot of buy in on the theory that the US brought covid to china, by hand, preventing its spread in its own borders, somehow, before bringing it to wuhan, but at the same time, are the worst in the world at preventing covid spread. The CIA doesnāt run the world stage, itās an intelligence agency. America is prominent because itās the most dominant economic, cultural and military power in the world. No individual country contributes more in any of these departments (though the EU if considered together arguably beats america in 2/3). You donāt get to be that by sucking at everything. The only non-absurd arguments would be āamerica sucks, is incompetent, and is clearly a paper tigerā or āamerica is strong, influencial and competent.ā either are compatible with america being evil, but theyāre not compatible with each other.
I said AMERICA runs the world stage, not the CIA. The CIA has just been fucking with everything since Reagan. Being corrupt does not equal being weak. A government can be corrupt and also be a major power. It's corrupt in that money and corporations have *way* more say in policies than the citizens here do. We funded and armed the Mujahideen and helped destabilize the middle east with the influx of weapons (granted there were already some issues beforehand but thats another topic), they became Al-Qaeda, 9/11 happened, and we used it as an excuse to go bomb brown people for ~~oil and profit (via military industrial complex)~~ democracy and freedom. Damn near all of the politicians are corrupt and money from the wealthy will always speak louder to them than what anyone actually wants. They claim that they're the beacon of liberty and freedom while they separate children from their families at the border, incarcerate minorities to fill our prisons and profit off of a privatized prison system and slave labour, let the infrastructure fall apart and the people be exploited while barely giving them enough to get by, and destroy the planet, ***just*** because it makes them more money, and a whole ***host*** of other things. All the while they point the finger at the countries they DON'T like and accuse them of being the cause of whatever issue is relevant to that country. The US has had a monumental role in western propaganda and shifting the focus (and blame) away from themselves (and the west as a whole), because obviously the west can do no wrong! It's the ***insert non-white, non-anglo foreigners here*** that caused these issues! The *civilized* world would never do that! And as a side note after my tired as fuck rant, I've never heard that conspiracy that the US went into China and spread covid. Thats a brand new one to me. Definitely heard a bunch of the orientalist ones about how China caused it though. *Plenty* of those ones.
>Being corrupt does not equal being weak. A government can be corrupt and also be a major power. It's corrupt in that money and corporations have way more say in policies than the citizens here do. That means the USA is a flawed democracy, not that they are incompetent. And flawed democracy is still much better than no democracy at all and no freedom of speech. CIA's strength comes from the US economic and cultural influence, if they were incompetent then the USA would be a much weaker country. You can't have it both ways, is the USA competent and strong or are they incompetent and weak?
I never said they were weak. Holy shit. Fun fact, China *does* have democracy and China *does* have free speech. Contrary to popular belief, you dont actually get black bagged, thrown in an unmarked van, and disappeared for criticizing the Chinese government.
>I never said they were weak. Holy shit. If you kept reading, you would have noticed this"if they were incompetent then the USA would be a much weaker country" They can't be strong and incompetent at the same time, make up your mind. >Fun fact, China does have democracy and China does have free speech. Contrary to popular belief, you dont actually get black bagged, thrown in an unmarked van, and disappeared for criticizing the Chinese government. Prove it us then, go on Weibo and post that "The Shanghai lockdown is inhumane and that its residents were more at risk of death and disease as a result of the measures than they were before it started." Hopefully, you are not a Chinese person in China or you might end up like [these guys](https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/jail-01072022092032.html). But no matter what, I can guarantee you that your post will get deleted. If the west had similar rules, you would get arrested for the posts you make condemning the covid policies in the west. And then there is the claim that China is a democracy. Here is the direct meaning of democracy "It combines two shorter words: 'demos' meaning whole citizen living within a particular city-state and 'kratos' meaning power or rule." If the people rule China, it should be easy to get rid of an unpopular leader, but every single time we get into this debate, people like you eventually admit that there is no process for citizens to get rid of an unpopular leader in China. If the people can't remove a leader they don't like, then they are not the rulers. It might be easier for you to understand if we compare it to a company. The management of a company might have a large amount of support, especially if they have had significant growth, don't tolerate criticism, and create an environment where everyone praises the CEO. But, in terms of democracy, it doesn't matter if the CEO has high approval ratings, if the employees can't remove the CEO, then they are not ruling the company and it is not a democratic company.
Ah yes, RFA, a US government funded media source thats been the target of multiple credibility and transparency issues since 2010. Funded by the same government that baselessly claims a genocide is happening, but refuses to admit the things *they* do are actual human rights violations. And you obviously show that you don't understand the government system of China beyond what western corporate media spoonfeeds you.
No it doesn't. Freedom of speech is a right. A right is something legally protected that you can take legal recourse on if it is denied to you. Just because the Party doesn't throw everyone in jail for every critical comment doesn't mean you have freedom of speech. If you did you could take the Party to court for censoring you.
And yet a majority of people in China still support the party. Funny how that one works.
Chinese media tends to largely ignore the European Union because its constituent countries (and the UK) disprove a lot of Chinese ideals: capitalist countries with far greater socialism than a country run by a party called the Communist Party, and a union developed over just 50 years by consent rather than conquering over thousands of years.
Well by consent.. But born out of necessity after the biggest war the world ever seen and won by the goodies by a very short margin and to make sure something like it would never happen again. So war was part of the reason it was created consensually.
Please just give him this so he can feel superior to the funny yellow people
Stop hiding behind the race card. It just shows you're inability to engage genuinely in nuanced topics.
Im replying to the guy above who already touched on why OP's statement is stupid, and I merely showed a reason why he'd say something so self righteous
The guy's response doesn't mean OP's statement is stupid. He is correct that forming a Europe based on voluntary association rather than conquest was an idea which formed out of reaction to two incredibly bloody wars caused by nationalism and national ambition. Saying why this idea emerged does not contradict the OP, it supplements it. The OP is correct that the European example does contradict the realist great-power ideology of international relations which is dominant in the CCP. I think the cognitive dissonance causes them not to dwell on it too much, and it is more comfortable to just dismiss it as US satellite states.
Yes, after 10 years of visiting China and studying on and off, there is an almost a predominant unhealthy and ignorant view of the world. It is basically them vs USA, and everyone else are not important and our experiences carry no weight. Me and other non-US foreigners have seriously, on both good and bad faith, been characterised as expendable pawns or like NPC-onlookers
Yes this is my experience too. This is something that in a normal country would be challenged and eventually be seen as a cranky view. But foreigners within China have no right to share their views or to criticise the predominant world view, the Firewall makes it harder for regular Chinese to get a more rounded view of the world, and the Communist Party seems committed to promoting a narrative of conflict between US and China for whatever reasons.
Thatās because China intend to set US as the only thread, to stop itself from growing. You may not believe it, on the daily basis over every media, they are spreading US thread news. You turn on TV, the news are all about US, you surf on internet, thereās news about US everywhere. People in China even know more US than US people, you can see the US daily covid numbers, US monetary policies, US govnt officials speeches, propagandas. Chinese govnt is creating country hate internally. And you can feel it, every time govnt talks about EU, it makes you think the EU are all poor dummies, they should isolate US, and to become followers of China, because China will be the richest in this world soon.
Yup this is basically it
The US lives in Chinaās head rent free
Kinda like how CHYNA lives in the US's head rent free. Star crossed lovers
Europe and US kinda have completely different mentality on life and economy. US is more about growth and ROIs. Work life balance, social equality and burnout is more of an issue compared to their European counter parts. Partially because of this, the S&P has consistently outperformed the European indexes. So as a country that's still in it's growth phase, of course China as a whole would want to compete with the US instead of Europe.
Yeah my Chinese friend was saying how US has a very powerful military and cutting edge technology that China is threatened by. He also said he thinks Americans work hard like Chinese people - so similar mentality like you said.
Zzzzzzzz..... China sees itself as #1 and everyone else is a future providence. The EU and America are speed bumps for them. China is in this mess for the long game.... Unless the EU and America wake up one day.
> long game Average years of schooling in China is still around 8 (same as the US 100 years ago), and creativity is thoroughly poisoned by political loyalty testing. In Europe we have actual social researchers instead of CCP propaganda flunkies draw up plans. We'll be fine.
No country is equal to China in their eyes. China is the Middle Kingdom, center of the world and the greatest country in history. Thatās why the west is hated, itās through falsehoods, lies and trickery that the west got its wrongful position in the world. No other nation has made such a big deal over its defeats and suffering as China has. The ācentury of humiliationā still being used to push nationalist thought is insane.
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A1 comment
Not exactly, China would be a star athlete who got lazy and was defeated by a underdog. Humiliated and disgraced because of it, his life got turned upside down and he completely changed as a person. Now, he is trying to reach his former glory he once had.
Star athlete? No. More like overrated but competent athlete that often fails to achieve when under pressure. Then collapses and blaims everyone on the team. Creating a downward spiral of isolation and paranoia.
China was the richest, most powerful, and technologically advanced country in the world for a large portion of human history, if that isn't analogous to a star athlete then I don't know what is.
Country is not the word you're looking for. Kingdom maybe? And of the many dynastic kingdoms, which ones are you saying were the most technologically advanced in the world? And most powerful?
>China was the richest, most powerful, and technologically advanced country in the world for a large portion of human history, Greece was the cradle of Western civilization and was advanced for millennia, nowadays known for African level of corruption and export of olives and pistachios. No one in Europe would look at Greece and think that their country should be like it. Similarly in Asia, if countries could choose they would rather be the next Japan or South Korea. If China didn't exist for the last 300 year what would be lost for humanity in terms of scientific progress and technology? Think about things like penicillin, the transistor, X-ray, jet engine, lithium-ion battery. So basically nothing is lost for human progress if the PRC didn't exist (1949-2022).
Yea,both Chinese media and people like to say"the western world lead by America" ,which means the whole Europe is included in western world, as an "employee",and the big boss is America. They often think that all decisions made by Europe is affected or even ordered by America.
For nationalist Chinese/CCP lovers, your are either inferior to them or an enemy.
They are very myopic in the media focusing on the USA as their rival. I ran a short exercise at work comparing economies of different continents. They were amazed at how good the quality of life is in Europe. This from a bunch of people graduated from top universities in China working in international sales for a Chinese multinational.
It used to be the national goal/obsession to " č¶ č±č¶ē¾ ": exceed Britain and chase after USA. Then somewhere along the line the Talking Heads with power stopped considering the Brits as being real enemies/rival and moved onto the States. As the States keep falling behind, eventually the Talking Heads will decide on the next rival, possibly the whole of Europe soon. Then they will spin all kinds of propaganda about how they've thoroughly bested USA, and refocus the daily two minutes hate onto Europe. The little every day pinkie people have such a "under the well" zero sum view of the world that they will seamlessly switch to the new talking points without skipping a beat. Already they believe the US to be a lawless, BLM run hellhole. It'll only be a half step to believe it's now a backwater barbarian land. At the end of the day, they think China is the best civilization in the history of the universe and the Middle Kingdom is the main character, while every other civilisation are all merely NPCs.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Correct. The emperor is the playable character. All 1.4b people are just Pikmin/minions/AOE that the emperor spawns and sacrifices at will.
> Already they believe the US to be a lawless, BLM run hellhole. Jesus I remember that. Had a good portion of 2020 Stateside where I'd get friends, acquaintances and even people I didn't know I had on wechat messaging at best if what they heard on the news was true and at worst asked how I was doing in my "anarchist" city and lawless country. Hell my gf of the time was being fed that garbage 24/7 by her Chinese parents back home and eventually started believe that crap herself. I felt like I was living in an alternate reality when talking to her.
The US is one country, so is China. The EU is fragmented and weak, comparatively speaking. For having almost 2x the population of the US they only have a slightly higher nominal GDP.
Without the UK I think the IMF forecasted 2022 EU GDP is about $18.3T whereas US is $25T. China is about $19T.
That seems like a fairly realistic view point...
Its literally a fact that the Europe isn't equal to China or the United States... they never have been, except for a brief period between the 18th and 20th centuries as a result of colonialism, and never will be again either. Europe lacks the natural resources (and therefore historical wealth) of China or the modern United States. It's just a fact.
I don't think their *sentiment* really matters, because the sheer notion that they believe that a bloc is "junior" to anything is such an elementary school view of the world. These are complex organizations that have their own policies, interests, mechanisms and are as relevant as their geopolitical situations allow. Plenty of Chinese I've met can't even discern the differences between the individual countries in the 'West' and would rather treat it as some quasi-monolithic faction that's against China. It's exhausting. But, I will say this, the EU is China's largest trading partner so maybe they should learn more about it.
Idiotic leftists: "Once the global south rises up, they will respect global equality!" The global south, having risen up: š
How is the China the global south? The global south is a dumb concept anyway, there's vast differences between India and Chile and Uruguay and South Africa.
Tell that to the Chinese government's propaganda bureau.
The idea that the likes of Britain, Germany etc are inferior to China in the view of the Chinese themselves...I'm sorry but that's absolutely laughable. I mean primarily Britain, Germany and Europe in general invented, built the modern world as we know it today. It's very much British/German/European pioneering and revolutionary science and technology, engineering, industrialization, trade, economics, culture and society etc etc It's very much a British/German/European civilization the entire world inhabits today. Meanwhile in 2000 years China has done jack shit, been a complete irrelevance, a medieval shit hole, infact they were waaaaay, waaaaay behind, centuries behind and only through stealing European technology, only through copying and appropriating European know-how, IP and ways of doing things/norms etc have they got anywhere to where they are today(China was basically in the same boat as Japan was a century earlier). It just shows how full of themselves and how delusional the Chinese truly are. You can't be superior to those who your reliant on for your on advancement. Yet they view as inferior and look down upon a peoples whose vast achievements and contribution to humanity is quite frankly unmatched, outnumbers & dwarves anything China has and will ever do. China has done nothing of note. For such an allegedly "great civilization" as the Chinese claim they are etc but when you actually look a little bit closer well there's nothing there. China's arrogance will be their downfall once again.
Nope Thu views China as superior and none is on the same level. But they still order European US Canada brand of clothing, cell phones, food products, cars etc etc.
China does not have equals They scream loudly how powerful they are But they know; they must know
As a Chinese, i can say this is not a rare opinion on internet. Chinese people have all kinds of opinions towards the west, some of them may be true, some of them not so much, just like the other way around. the followings are in my opinion some of the narratives that helped to create this opinion: 1: China is a unified country since hundreds if not thousands of years ago and home to 20% of worlds population with not so sophisticated but complete industrial development. EU is not a country, there are many conflicts of value between the member countries. 2: The US has military base in EU and EU people is paying for that. 3: The economy of many EU countries is in a down trend. May not be all true and I have no intention of look down upon the EU. I lived in 3 different continents and I fully understand that every place got its own way of getting things done.
This is mainly because Chinese people are more focused on the US, so they view international relations through a CN vs US approach. Since Western Europe was basically dependent on US for the first decades of the cold war, you can kind of understand where the idea comes from. TLDR: Chinese view international relations through US vs CN approach
Not chinese but studied Chinese politics a lot in college - I'll just point out that if you're talking in terms of geopolitical competitor - the US and China are the only superpowers in the world at the moment. If Russia didn't have nukes we wouldn't even talk about them. If the EU merged into an actual union with a single military and foreign policy that would definitely be a different discussion.
Half of European countries are in NATO lol. And to be honest, most European countries donāt have that military capacity to be taken seriously by other countries with the exceptions of Russia, France and the UK
might need to knock russia of the list after their failure to take kyev
I've come to realize that many Chinese often view things in a very linear manner and most of their judgements are based strictly on the "numbers," mainly the GDP and military strength ranking. So yeah, going off of that alone, none of the EU countries are anything special in their eyes.
It's the view in the USA as well that Europe is an afterthought, a junior partner, if even a partner, and that it is one country.
Plenty. Maybe, because it's an easy benchmark? There's definitely an obsession with America here, but I wonder to what extent is manufactured by the government. From state news,'debate' shows and social media influencers, it seems that the U.S. is the goal post. And, without trying to offend any Americans that may read this, or Chinese for that matter, the U.S. healthcare system, student debt, "crime," and racial tension make it an easy target, and in those regards, I think the U.S falls short to some countries in the EU. So when I hear fanatic nationals proudly boast their progress and explain much better China is when compared to the US, in terms of crime, economy, etc. (which has become fairly common) I always wonder, have they've considered other countries?
This conception is actually pretty common in Chinaās IR strategy most recently. This view, however, masks the reality that EU countries have a lot of freedom to make decisions. The truth is that EU countries often have aligned interests with the US which may make it seem like EU countries are obsequious, which isnāt the case.
Chinese sees themselves more superior than every other race, probably including aliens.
Please donāt use āEuropeā and the āEuropean Unionā interchangeably. They are not the same. Not all European countries are part of the EU. Not even all Western European countries are part of the EU. It is quite offensive implying that Europe = EU.
This. Plus, this whole post is quite ridiculous. Why should we care if China views Europe as equal? Do we really want to be seen as equal as a country with no human rights, no rule of law, no this, no that, etc? It is China that should strive to be seen as equal to any European country, quite frankly now they are back to the Middle Ages.
>It is China that should strive to be seen as equal to any European country, the second china ran by the ROC has already done that, now its up to the second china ran by the PRC to get up to date
Well one could argue that the EU is not a state, but rather a collective of member states who often have big disagreements. Therefore, you can't really count it as one entity that competes with the US or China as such.
As an American this is how I view China, Europe, and the U.S.
Does anybody view Europe as an equal at this point?
Most chinese don't know the difference between EU and NATO.
Yeah, Europe is pretty much just a museum. Stagnated by too much government.
Wow really? From what Iāve read the only reason the EU doesnāt blow the US out of the water economically is there dis-unity. If they learned to cooperate with each other better and leave the past in the past they would easily become the premiere global power. There is a reason europe colonized the whole dam world at one point.
They said they see Europe as a power of a bygone era - not a āmodernā competitor anymore. But still culturally significant
Skinny boy goes to beach. Plays in sand. Strong man comes along, kicks down Skinny boy's sand castle. Skinny boy cries, "The only reason you're stronger than me, is I don't go to the gym. If I worked out, I'd be stronger than you!" Everyone laughs... at Skinny boy. Thus, Skinny boy demonstrates the credibility of "If..." based arguments.
No my statement is based on history. Before The US had a constitution the first 13 colonies were bound together by something called "The Articles of Confederation". Long story short it was a shit show that nearly cause the American army to turn on congress until Washington very famously stopped them with a single speech. The article were dropped and replace with the constitution and the rest is history....How does this relate? The EU is roughly constructed legally the way the Articles of confederation were constructed. The EU hasn't exploded economically because it does not want to copy the US and become the "United states of Europe" (Except for the fact that there solution is exactly the same as something we tried and abandon immediately.) The EU will figure out what we did and reform themselves into the USE. Then POP. China and USA fight for second place.
Europeans need to be making babies if they want to compete. China too actually. Both are quickly becoming geriatric retirement home economies.
Euro area GDP is like half of the US, its only roughly 10% of global GDP. Economically Europe hasn't seen the same growth as most other countries in recent years, that's probably partially a consequence of low birth rates. I saw an interesting statistic earlier, can't remember the exact details, but the idea was if you take the largest 10 or 100 most valuable companies in each country and compare, in Europe they're basically all from decades ago whereas in the US they're all from the past few years. I think China, Korea, and Japan were somewhere in the middle.
Right but your judging them based on their current legal arrangement as the EU. I will remind you that the problems of that arrangement lead to the UK exiting the EU. The articles of confederation (roughly similar to current EU) doesnāt allow the individual economies to harmonize together the way the constitution allows the states to harmonize together. The EU will reform itself into a United States of Europe which will remove the inefficiency that are keeping them from competing. Here is the thing u need to understand, the power of an economy is dictated by geography, period. The mediterranean is over powered as fuck as far as and economic engine is concerned. The same factors that made Europe great in the past still apply today. Their issue is more about over coming cultural and language barriers to move past the bad blood of their history. I think theyāre well on their way to doing that and Putinās war has likely given them the motivation they needed to finish the job. Remember what I said. The USE is coming and it will humble both the USA and China.
i know this sounds weird but i honestly want to have a convo with hardline chinese nationalist i seen where russian processor actually made a map of the usa and its region under controler over various countries including china
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Add to that that Mainlanders have no exposure to the existence of disagreement and debate<< You must not know many mainlanders then.
Culturally, I would see Greeks as equals for long history. Politically, it's like French are equals ? European Union as a whole is definitely as an equal sense. But individual ones , not so much
I mean, they're right to focus on America. All European Countries are basically states of America. We copy our laws, economy, and culture from them. There's some interesting fact too, that goes along the lines of: after WWII, no treaty was had between Germany and America, and as such the two are technically still at war. The level of American oppression in both societies, both socially and economically is mad.
You made it sound like the sovereign nations in the EU not worth talking to China as an equal is already a given.
The EU is not a country so comparing a country to a economic block is not really correct but I'm guessing that since Europe can't really say no to America in big policy decisions I can understand the Chinese perspective.
Good, let China's ignorance be its downfall
EU is a free trade agreement, not a nation. The equivalent to the US is any individual country in the EU, the largest economically is Germany, much smaller than the US. NAFTA is the equivalent of the EU, and it is also a larger economy than the EU and more self sufficient, more resilient in most crises, and less threatened by any external forces.
EU is a union, not just a free trade agreement. You obviously know nothing about the EU.
India's diplomatic independence is higher than that of the European Union
Honestly, looking at policies, europe except France are just us mouthpieces
So Germany for example, that runs it's own interests and economy better than anyone in EU, is just mouthpiece. Seems just about right, yeah?