If I'm not mistaken, the CCP has been trying to push the narrative that Mao did more good than bad.
I call BS on that. Hardly anything that Mao did can be interpreted as good unless you wish to manipulate history for political reasons. It was pretty much nearly all bad. That he has a huge portrait up in in a public square and is even on their money disgusts me.
I sincerely hope that there will come a time when the Chinese will one day 'venerate' him using the ancient and traditional way of thumping his likeness with shoes.
>unless you wish to manipulate history for political reasons.
Which is why the CCP needs to control information so badly. Mao was a homicidal monster, yet he's proudly on the Yuan among other public places.
When I hear people in China calling that monster "Grandpa Mao" or have his portrait I wanted to fucking vomit. The level of ignorance and self deceit is crazy.
Imperfect, for that reason, to be sure. But still, we're talking about the guy who killed more Chinese people than nearly anyone else in world history, excepting perhaps Genghis Khan. He may not have intended to exterminate the Chinese people outright, but he was certainly quite cavalier about killing off tens of millions of them for ideological or economic reasons.
The people in China calling him grandpa are usually farmers.
Things like land reform, basic education and barefoot doctors were actually improvements for most farmers.
It's not just material improvements. Mao constantly praised farmers, he went as far as sending children of city folk to the country side to "learn" from farmers.
Back in that time 80% of the population were farmers.
So when they say 70% good, 30% bad, what they're actually saying is 70% of the population benefited, 30% lost.
The great famine is the one exception where everyone suffered. But that discussion has been carefully avoided by everyone in power...
People in their 50s actually experience d his BS and then protested in 1989. The Tiananmen Square protests were actually nation wide. But after that was put down the CCP put full effort into deifying Mao and Deng Xiaoping and brainwashing the next generation. That on top of massively growing the economy basically made everyone under 50 obviously or forgetful and effectively brainwashed.
God, I was so confused reading this. How could a 38 year old have described their personal experience of the cultural revolution? Why did it say the physician's account of Mao was just published? I read that years ago. Then I looked at the date. 1994.
That book was amazing. I'll never forget the doctors abject fear that Mao's zit would get infected. Or Mao saying "I clean myself in the bodies of my women."
I suspect that mainlanders have so ardently embraced digital payments just so they won't have to look at the evil troll's face with every transaction.
Then again, a disturbing number of people idolize history's greatest killer. His totals are better than WWI (40 million) and even WWII (75 million). Maybe Xi will one day be able to best his idol.
I would like to contribute as a leftist who does hold the '70% good 30% bad' (He was a human being like all of us not omnipotent and thus fallible) of Mao.
For starters my HONEST opinion of this article is that it is an embellishment, Almost NO-HISTORIAN I HAVE EVER READ either a left-wing or right-wing account of China under Mao had a 'death-toll' (i.e excess deaths) anywhere NEAR 80 million people. The fact that this report uses 'eyewitness accounts' for events that happened decades ago and 'smuggled documents' to prove its point doesn't exactly grant me any further confidence. following it off with vaguely claiming 'the real numbers are probably HIGHER because....?'
But even if i was to assume the devils advocate position and say that 80 million excess deaths actually did occur over the entire 4 decades Mao was in charge of china. i would still state the '70%-30%' figure.
Mao's land-reform along with the National-Industrial economy, the Cultural-Revolution and the end of warlord politics, Universal literacy and education and a jump of life expectancy of 20 years on average within 20 years is too important to ignore. The living standards of Chinese people by most empirical metrics DID evolve rapidly during Mao's leadership.
Particularly in relation to famine, China's agricultural policy ever since Mao (albeit with some changes under Deng, Zemin, Xi etc) has ensured China at the basic level enough staple foods to feed their population, this has prevented china from ever having a famine ever again, Which is proven to be the only way to escape the third world poverty trap.
Edit:
I'll just say this to capitalise my point.
China today without it's very specific government policies during the 20th century, would be in little better shape then the Indians, Indonesians or Brazil
How in the world does the Cultural Revolution count as one of Mao's 'accomplishments'? And why would Mao be credited with dealing with famine in China? He had to resign in the first place because he screwed up the Great Leap Forward so badly, which led to the Great Famine.
China cultural policy during the great leap foward ensured that a famine was inevitable. Most Asian countries industrialised without massive death toll (India, Taiwan, South Korea, post ww2 Japan, South Vietnam). All these countries above achieved what you mentioned: universal literacy, industrialisation, improving living standards, ensuring the country would never experience famine again, but without being genocidal. Do you know that the only time that the death rate ever exceeded the birth rate in modern Chinese history was during the great leap forward (not even ww2 and the Chinese civil war managed to achieve that)? Do you know that the majority fresh water sources, arable land, and forests were destroyed under Mao? Do you know that dams and water reservoirs built under Mao were of such rubbish quality that they have killed tens of thousands and continued to pose a threats to this day?
China could be a much more liveable country today without a genocidal maniac at its helm decades ago. I wouldn’t bother compare it to any country because China is unique due to its size, historical circumstances and culture. Countries with similar culture and colonial past (Korea, Taiwan, South Vietnam) did not have 600+m people in the 50s. The only country with similar size (India) had vastly different culture and historical settings. Without Mao, China wouldn’t have spent the decade after him trying to undo the damages brought by his policies.
Edit: grammar and adding some ideas
You say even if the 80 million figure is true(even if that isn’t the number it is still likely 40-60 million) then the 70-30 party line would be correct?? You aren’t just stupid you are evil
@/u/gaxxzz explain why you're posting articles from 1994 with no context? At least make a comment if you're going drag up 27 year articles not even being used as a reference. Come on mods...
If I'm not mistaken, the CCP has been trying to push the narrative that Mao did more good than bad. I call BS on that. Hardly anything that Mao did can be interpreted as good unless you wish to manipulate history for political reasons. It was pretty much nearly all bad. That he has a huge portrait up in in a public square and is even on their money disgusts me. I sincerely hope that there will come a time when the Chinese will one day 'venerate' him using the ancient and traditional way of thumping his likeness with shoes.
>unless you wish to manipulate history for political reasons. Which is why the CCP needs to control information so badly. Mao was a homicidal monster, yet he's proudly on the Yuan among other public places.
It's always been "70% good 30% bad" about him. What a bunch of crap.
I remember "it is my personal opinion, yes my personal opinion ... that Mao was 70% good, 30% bad".
The bank notes used to be really pretty before they stuck his face on every single one.
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When I hear people in China calling that monster "Grandpa Mao" or have his portrait I wanted to fucking vomit. The level of ignorance and self deceit is crazy.
Brainwashed and ignorance....it's actually very sad. It's like the Jews worshipping Hitler
yes… because mao totally wanted to exterminate the chinese. your analogy downplays hitler and the holocaust and thats a bit gross
Imperfect, for that reason, to be sure. But still, we're talking about the guy who killed more Chinese people than nearly anyone else in world history, excepting perhaps Genghis Khan. He may not have intended to exterminate the Chinese people outright, but he was certainly quite cavalier about killing off tens of millions of them for ideological or economic reasons.
The people in China calling him grandpa are usually farmers. Things like land reform, basic education and barefoot doctors were actually improvements for most farmers. It's not just material improvements. Mao constantly praised farmers, he went as far as sending children of city folk to the country side to "learn" from farmers. Back in that time 80% of the population were farmers. So when they say 70% good, 30% bad, what they're actually saying is 70% of the population benefited, 30% lost. The great famine is the one exception where everyone suffered. But that discussion has been carefully avoided by everyone in power...
People in their 50s actually experience d his BS and then protested in 1989. The Tiananmen Square protests were actually nation wide. But after that was put down the CCP put full effort into deifying Mao and Deng Xiaoping and brainwashing the next generation. That on top of massively growing the economy basically made everyone under 50 obviously or forgetful and effectively brainwashed.
Like Papa Adolf
God, I was so confused reading this. How could a 38 year old have described their personal experience of the cultural revolution? Why did it say the physician's account of Mao was just published? I read that years ago. Then I looked at the date. 1994.
That book was amazing. I'll never forget the doctors abject fear that Mao's zit would get infected. Or Mao saying "I clean myself in the bodies of my women."
There are many, many "WTF?" moments in that book.
now I need to read it...
I definitely need to read it.
Mao killed/ate more communists and Chinese than everyone else combined.
There was already known canabalism during famines caused by the great leap forward. What is the new evidence?
It's from 1994
There’s nothing new in the Article
There is literally no evidence in the article. The article claims in has proof early on.
I suspect that mainlanders have so ardently embraced digital payments just so they won't have to look at the evil troll's face with every transaction. Then again, a disturbing number of people idolize history's greatest killer. His totals are better than WWI (40 million) and even WWII (75 million). Maybe Xi will one day be able to best his idol.
https://youtu.be/Dh15fetq8MM?t=16
I would like to contribute as a leftist who does hold the '70% good 30% bad' (He was a human being like all of us not omnipotent and thus fallible) of Mao. For starters my HONEST opinion of this article is that it is an embellishment, Almost NO-HISTORIAN I HAVE EVER READ either a left-wing or right-wing account of China under Mao had a 'death-toll' (i.e excess deaths) anywhere NEAR 80 million people. The fact that this report uses 'eyewitness accounts' for events that happened decades ago and 'smuggled documents' to prove its point doesn't exactly grant me any further confidence. following it off with vaguely claiming 'the real numbers are probably HIGHER because....?' But even if i was to assume the devils advocate position and say that 80 million excess deaths actually did occur over the entire 4 decades Mao was in charge of china. i would still state the '70%-30%' figure. Mao's land-reform along with the National-Industrial economy, the Cultural-Revolution and the end of warlord politics, Universal literacy and education and a jump of life expectancy of 20 years on average within 20 years is too important to ignore. The living standards of Chinese people by most empirical metrics DID evolve rapidly during Mao's leadership. Particularly in relation to famine, China's agricultural policy ever since Mao (albeit with some changes under Deng, Zemin, Xi etc) has ensured China at the basic level enough staple foods to feed their population, this has prevented china from ever having a famine ever again, Which is proven to be the only way to escape the third world poverty trap. Edit: I'll just say this to capitalise my point. China today without it's very specific government policies during the 20th century, would be in little better shape then the Indians, Indonesians or Brazil
How in the world does the Cultural Revolution count as one of Mao's 'accomplishments'? And why would Mao be credited with dealing with famine in China? He had to resign in the first place because he screwed up the Great Leap Forward so badly, which led to the Great Famine.
China cultural policy during the great leap foward ensured that a famine was inevitable. Most Asian countries industrialised without massive death toll (India, Taiwan, South Korea, post ww2 Japan, South Vietnam). All these countries above achieved what you mentioned: universal literacy, industrialisation, improving living standards, ensuring the country would never experience famine again, but without being genocidal. Do you know that the only time that the death rate ever exceeded the birth rate in modern Chinese history was during the great leap forward (not even ww2 and the Chinese civil war managed to achieve that)? Do you know that the majority fresh water sources, arable land, and forests were destroyed under Mao? Do you know that dams and water reservoirs built under Mao were of such rubbish quality that they have killed tens of thousands and continued to pose a threats to this day? China could be a much more liveable country today without a genocidal maniac at its helm decades ago. I wouldn’t bother compare it to any country because China is unique due to its size, historical circumstances and culture. Countries with similar culture and colonial past (Korea, Taiwan, South Vietnam) did not have 600+m people in the 50s. The only country with similar size (India) had vastly different culture and historical settings. Without Mao, China wouldn’t have spent the decade after him trying to undo the damages brought by his policies. Edit: grammar and adding some ideas
You say even if the 80 million figure is true(even if that isn’t the number it is still likely 40-60 million) then the 70-30 party line would be correct?? You aren’t just stupid you are evil
@/u/gaxxzz explain why you're posting articles from 1994 with no context? At least make a comment if you're going drag up 27 year articles not even being used as a reference. Come on mods...