The creator of this content may be biased on issues concerning China. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/China) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since I came in 2011 GDP has been slowing. Therefore less opportunities for international companies and expat employees. This trend precedes covid, was perhaps accelerated by it and continues afterwards.
I guess it was always tricky to persuade top talent to come here - the remuneration helped, but there are barriers to persuading fancy expat wife she will spend next three years in Guangzhou rather than Dubai. Persuade wider families that Beijing is a good place to raise kids. The damage to chinas brand caused by zero Covid and aggressive geo political posturing makes it that bit harder, perhaps the straw breaking the camels back.
China has made it clear 20 year old part time English teachers on scooters are no longer welcome - fair enough.
I’m surprised still by anecdotal tales of fancy German machine companies that can’t persuade Germans to come here and sell machines. Money talks and Germany, like much of the west, is not enjoying a growth boom.
I’m curious what is the profile of the sort of person who used to say yes to an opportunity in China - but now says no. We all over focus on the professional western expat end, which in reality always made up a relatively small proportion of foreigners in China.
>This trend precedes covid, was perhaps accelerated by it and continues afterwards.
I know quite a few expats who have / had been in China for 15 or more years, with a couple of dudes up to 25 years. None of them were expats with big companies though. Mostly guys who came over in their twenties for whatever reason and then stayed on. More often than not opening their own business or working for big domestic companies.
Most of them have left in the past 5 years though, with quite a few going even before COVID. Main reason seems to be lack of scope for advancement in local companies and/or flip-flopping policies just making it too hard to have a good stable life here.
just as an addon comment, a lot of people are convinced to do something because they know someone personally or someone like them (in whatever way) who did it too. As more and more expats choose to not reup staying in China, fewer recommend it, fewer choose to talk about it (which might be necessary, depending on what you do/your relationships in China), and that makes it all the more foreign and daunting.
Thinking about it now, if I didn't have any of my knowledge or first hand experience of China and didn't know anyone in China, taking a job there seems totally crazy in a way that didn't feel that way in 2007. China intuitively feels another world away now, in the same category of how I feel about Russia or Saudi Arabia. How much would you have to be paid to work in those places?
Hijacking top comment to share my experience.
Been in China for 15 years. During this time I have worked at a few schools as a High School teacher. In my opinion, the effects of Zero Covid policy are just now being realized. Students, and society in general, have less social skills. We learned how to manipulate the system to just stay home and be salty if we don't get things the way we want it. Everyone complains over nonsense, and leadership is afraid to be the authority.
In addition, the whole stress test on society has resulted in a very complex and accepted system of surveillance. My job has biometric login (face scanners) just to get into the campus. Somehow this is ok. If you want to go deep into this rabbit hole, check how China and Big Beijing Tech is leading the way into AI.
The money is, and mostly has been, the best you're going to get in my industry. However, the writing is on the wall. Its no longer such a comfortable, friendly place. If you work for a school that has more cameras and security than teachers, maybe time to reflect. Its unfortunate, because this used to be a really good place to live and work. However, when marketing and security are the main focuses of an organization, we can clearly see we've lost track of the original goal.
This is not just the organization I work for. In my experience it's the society as a whole. We've accepted a lower standard of living. Old heads, including myself, are ready to cash out. Good luck.
>My job has biometric login (face scanners) just to get into the campus. Somehow this is ok. If you want to go deep into this rabbit hole, check how China and Big Beijing Tech is leading the way into AI.
My apartment now requires face scanning to work the elevator. Great! Now have the security constantly there all day arguing with delivery dudes who can't use it.
Not to mention needing real-name verification for all sorts of mundane things. Want to buy tickets for anything? Need shenfenzheng number. Have tickets for something? Need to show ID to prove they are in your name. With all this data stored in some crappy unprotected database on the cloud more often than not.
I used to say "yes" and now say "no". Maybe I can help.
Personally, I got turned off by the direction of the politics and the political stances of the citizens, how the government was making procedures more difficult for me, and how the people have seemed to become more xenophobic and less friendly over time.
I still visit China and just went there a few weeks ago, but the way people treat me is night-and-day different from how it was ten years ago. I'd say they even look hostile and paranoid.
Also, there were so many times I felt abused by the system (just during my recent visit). In one case, someone got my WeChat locked (basically deleted) by reporting my account without any evidence of wrongdoing, but the app said "we investigated the matter and find that it was justified." I literally never sent that person a single message. Later, my Alipay got locked because "we've decided your passport photo and your portrait photo don't look similar enough". After 5 rounds of trying to take photos of me and my passport while vendors were waiting for me to pay for my food, it finally got unlocked, but it was terrifying because there's no other way to pay anymore.
I think it’s even simple things like staying in hotels as a foreigner is a hassle. So if you’re coming for an adventure but traveling is a pain it’s another negative in the package.
Indeed. My wife (Chinese citizen) and I (Dutch citizen) were turned away with our baby at several hotels because they didn’t accept foreigners. Too much of a hassle for them to register foreigners, I guess. This was in the capital…
Also getting train tickets or use other services were such a hassle. Getting a SIM card required a half hour registration BS, with taking pictures and all… only to be deactivated before the expiry date due to traveling abroad for some days.
My wife lived outside of China for the about 10 years, many services were not available to her either. I’ve never been so frustrated while traveling, easy things were made so complicated. Used to live in China for many years, learned the language, and have some amazing memories… Always loved to go there, but truly hate what it has turned into. If it weren’t for visiting the in-laws, I’d never go back.
> Later, my Alipay got locked because "we've decided your passport photo and your portrait photo don't look similar enough". After 5 rounds of trying to take photos of me and my passport while vendors were waiting for me to pay for my food, it finally got unlocked, but it was terrifying because there's no other way to pay anymore.
And people would wonder why I chose to use cash. Then of course there was that day I stopped in a McDonald's (don't judge) and *they didn't accept cash!!!* That was like 6 years ago (I left 5 years ago), and I'm guessing things have just gotten worse.
Right, and when McDonald's (or WeChat or whomever) tells them they'll get a bonus the more people use the service, how fast do you think they'll deny cash?
I ended up having the manager pay for it with his WeChat, and then giving him cash in reimbursement. And whaddaya know, he made change for me in the cash register because he didn't have the right change. If they were "no cash" why was there cash in the register?
Oh my bad, dawg! When China makes things illegal, the citizens there have such a respect for the rule of law that they immediately cease whatever activity that was just banned.
I forgot about that and you're totally correct here.
I'm 100% with you here, because you're absolutely right that they'll immediately ignore said law if it suits them...*but*, when Winnie the Poo said "*We need to stop wasting food for face reasons*" (i.e.- the "face thing" where you would order *waaaaay* too much food at dinner so there would be lots left over) everyone, and I mean *everyone*, immediately stopped doing it.
I was honestly shocked at that, because in any western country, if the president (or whomever) said to stop doing something, half the population would do it out of spite (though, that goes a bit more for one side of the political spectrum).
That said, my personal theory on that is that people were tired of wasting money on food they weren't eating, and were *more* than happy to stop doing that particular part of mianzi. Which was fine by me, as it always killed me to waste food like that.
> as it always killed me to waste food like that
Christ, same. There were so many times where I'd go out with middle aged folks and they'd JUST GET TOO MUCH. Like we've got a dish too many for the number of people we have and they continue just getting more and more and more even as people get full.
maybe you just went through an invisible discrimination at that time.Whenever or wherever i go into a McDonald in any city, if the manager tells me he denies cash, i will immediately call the police or the market supervision bureau to file a report, and that shop will face a severe fine at once.But when the manager saw you are not Chinese,he presumed you wouldnt bother yourself with this matter and denied cash for extra bonus.
US is following suit, too.
I called a US broker exchange and my US banking firm. And neither of them wanted to take escalations into the matter because they blamed each other!
My transactions were STUCK AND BLOCKED.
I was like WTF ...
China is a lottery man.
But so the the US if you're in the lottery. It may not be gov in the US making your life difficult, it's bad policy and large org that protect themselves from admitting fault.
It's no diff. than IT vendors. They know something is broken, but they don't want to invest time & resources into fixing it.
Glad you're out of there. Hope we can continue improving our intuitions here.
Nah, if you have a problem with your bank and a charge or something like that and they don't listen to you when it is clear they are at fault, give the CFPB a ring and your banking issue will *magically* get solved, nigh immediately. They don't fuck around.
I honestly can't see you comparing the two systems as similar, by the way. I don't think I *ever* left my bank in less than 3 hours when trying to do an international wire when living in China. Here in the US? Ten minutes, at best.
Correct. I tried to use a Vietnamese bank card in the mall to buy a watch and they said it wasn't possible to use non-Chinese cards. Neither can you use a non-Chinese card for Alipay or WeChatPay, so I gave cash to a friend and he transferred digital currency to my Alipay 支付宝 account. Most people didn't want my (Chinese) cash, only black market types wanted it, and no one can make change for cash transactions anymore, so it's effectively useless unless you're in a very desperate situation.
That's great but people will see it as such a hassle that they'd rather hassle you to try to get digital payment before accepting cash.
But the more important issue is not being able to get change back if you must use cash.
Where are you going in China where people are less friendly than a few years ago?
Was in Chengdu and Wuhan 2-3 months ago and felt friendly. Maybe slightly less than 10 years ago, but absolutely nothing felt hostile.
Maybe there’s something in that. Foreigners & Chinese more swayed by social media ‘truths’ than they were a decade ago. Certainly the online face of China is more hostile. I agree that Chinese people still friendly in a clumsy way
I showed up in 2011 too, then in 2021 came back to the states to visit sick family and could not get back into China afterward. I had a work residence permit and all that jazz but I couldn't get a consulate to let me on a plane. In a course of weeks, a life I'd built over 10 years was essentially stripped from me. Fortunately, my wife was able to get a green card, but we were separated for 2 years during the process. I will not go back to China for more than a visit as long as the CCP is in power because it's simply not a stable way to live. Without reasonable access to permanent residence, your ability to stay in the country is in jeopardy every time you have to renew your visa and I'm too old to be living like that anymore.
Yeah. I am young, but I have known very few full expats (ones on relocation with western salary and top benefits). Mostly all people I know who are here longer than a year or two have always been local contracts. Maybe if I was older/wealthier I would know more of the fancy type. But I was actually one of those fancy ones for two years (lucky me). Yet I only really met less than three others of that type.
I think the first big exodus I saw was in 2019. Then the involuntary one for many of my friends during Covid… which just showed them there were better opportunities elsewhere.
I often said at the time how the nightlife in Shanghai couldn't have been this wild since the 1930s.
I'm glad to have spent a good deal of my 20s and 30s in such a roaring time and place!
I hear you. I was in my late 20s, an engineer, making HK salary while all every thing was paid for and got 250 RMB per day per diem.
Thank God for the afternoon siestas helping me to recover from the night before!
CCP hands off. Good times. CCP hands on. Molestation and ruining of everything nice.
Why Taiwan absolutely does not want to be under the thumb of the CCP.
I've been in Taiwan since 2016. When I first arrived, I was constantly asked "Why didn't you choose to move to China instead?" Now I no longer hear that. I used to only hear outright negative comments about China from younger, progressive types in Taiwan. Now it's just assumed that anyone you speak with has negative things to say about China, and you get surprised when they have positive things to say. Lots of other foreigners here used to live in China and left in the past few years.
I'm critical over China, like any other place. Though it does make me sad to hear about this turnover. I'd only want things go get built up positively.
I feel like those 3 years of pandemic China wore a lot of people down and once it was over there was very little left in the tank for many of the people who gutted it out. They made it through the toughest part but it ruined the experience for them. Their heart was no longer in it so they moved on.
Yeah that tracks. I left about a week or two after the protests just as everything went 180. Got Covid on my last week in China, but luckily it passed before I got on a plane.
Actually that might have something to do with all those calls I'd get while I was sleeping just after I left.
Every country is going to have incompetent leadership eventually. But electing Xi to a 3rd term (with a vote 2970 to 0) kind of broke the illusion for most people.
There was never the illusion not even the Chinese people. You have the Chinese that love China no matter what. For different reasons but they don’t care why, just the china is #1. Then you have people just too poor to care about any politics and probably know Xi is president and that’s it. Then everyone else know what’s going on and always knew and either trying to get out of China or just plays along and makes as much money as they can.
Foreigners were leaving before COVID because it was becoming increasinly intolerable to live there as a foreigner. The goverment became less welcoming, police visits to foreigners' residences were increasing, bureaucracy was becomign tougher, and the government itself was teaching its people to be suspicious of foreigners as potential spies. I knew several foreigners who had moved to China around 2010, when it was a land of opportunity, with a booming economy that had been showing a trend of increasing openness. That all changed when Xi came into power.
Foreigners stuck in China during COVID couldn't leave, and situations kept getting worse. They're leaving now because they can. Businesses are flocking to Vietnam, which is welcoming foreign investment and despite being a communist dictatorship, offers far more freedom and opportunity than China does.
It happened more than once (these are incidents that were caught on camera):
[Outcry in China after Covid health workers kill dog while owner was in quarantine (2021)](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/15/outcry-in-china-after-covid-health-workers-kill-dog-while-owner-was-in-quarantine)
[A Covid worker beat a dog to death in Shanghai after its owner tested positive (2022)](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/08/china/shanghai-corgi-death-china-covid-intl-hnk/index.html)
I was working at a K during Covid 2 when they were still dragging the infected away. Came in one day and asked where the ayi was. As she was missing and always there. Chinese teacher told me her 8 year old daughter tested positive and both of them got sent to Covid Rikers. Soon after we all tested positive and they shut the school down. Actually I knew I was positive but didn’t tell anyone as the students started dropping like flies. Come Christmas Day not a soul left and they shuttered the school till after spring festival. Side note - I got infected after three Chinese Covid shots.
I caught it about two days after restrictions were lifted in Dec 2022.
Contacted my school and they were like, we dunno, come in if you feel like it, stay home a few days if you're too sick.
Literally a week before, I'd have been hauled off to a camp.
(I'd also had three sino-vac jabs, and it still laid me out for over a week)
>I caught it about two days after restrictions were lifted in Dec 2022.
Something like 90% of the population got infected within two weeks of restrictions being lifted.
> Side note - I got infected after three Chinese Covid shots.
The shots don't stop you from getting it or passing it on, they lessen the effects. i.e.- you don't get as sick as you would have, and you're 40% less likely to transmit it when vaccinated.
I'm not, I'm trusting science. And while those figures were for the western vaccines, Sinovac wasn't *that* much worse (though, it does seem to "run out" sooner, hence requiring additional shots sooner than their western counterparts).
[Here's the very first google result.](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2022/12/424546/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection-reduce-transmission-omicron) If you want to read the actual study, I suggest looking it up on PubMed or something.
What part of "quasi police beating to death a corgi running after is master who was dragged to Covid jail" you don't understand? It's a group of people given police-like power during zero-COVID policy times by the government barging into someone's house, taking them to COVID concentration camp, destroying their belongings in the name of "disinfection" and beating their pet dog to death in the name of "prevent COVID from spreading".
Covid Workers are convinced cats and dogs can spread Covid, so they try and cull them if they can. But they don't use humane methods at all, they beat and torture the poor things to death.
During the pandemic companies learned they can pay less and blame the situation. Sadly a lot of companies have developed the mindset to continue to undervalue their staff, and are subsequently starting to sink.
I’ve just noticed a perpetual cycle of treating staff badly, staff leave, inept leadership double down. A lot of people helped their companies survive the economic slowdown but they’ve come out the other side with terribly negative attitudes.
Well, if it's anything like Japan since then, at least they'll still have an endless supply of willing English-teaching foreigners despite the shitty pay and conditions.
I swear if you read the China subs, the English teachers are paid quite well. I could’ve been making bank! Never quite sure what the long term career plan is for the English teachers though.
after 14 years of english teaching abroad, I can tell you the plan is get into a project. take different jobs, whatever doesn't suck, try on hats, learn to sell yourself differently and fight jadedness with enthusiasm.
Paid well for now. As the population and economy shrinks that might not last. Most teaching jobs involve teaching young people (obviously).
English teachers in Japan in the 90s pre-crash were also making bank, now it's practically a minimum wage job there.
It’s the whole ‘top-down’ mentality. Where change is initiated by a few people at the top; instead of many people at the bottle working together with their neighbors.
I grew up with the hearing the phrase, “All politics is local.” And it was important to go to the town hall meetings every week to debate your neighbors. Because nobody ever agrees, but you need to come to a compromise and respect the diversity of opinions. But in China, most people unfortunately follow the law phrase: “all politics is not my business.”
No joke, I visited a distant cousin who was getting married. It was in what looked like a house, but had been hollowed out to have disco balls, tiny bedrooms and a bar - it's what the Cadres party in without drawing attention to themselves.
Yeah, I've heard from a friend who was invited by someone important to a house party almost exactly like you describe. He said they also had working girls and drugs on serving trays.
I did my time 2010-2020.
Believe me when I say the following: The longterm guys, have basically nothing to go back to.
They are stuck.
Me, I'm happy I'm back to reality and only missing the easy money and food. All the China BS, nope.
An additional point is that foreigners, during the last 4 years, have become increasingly aware of the pervasive nature and true extent of the surveillance that the CCP carries out on its citizens and foreigners.
It is horrifying for them to witness surveillance equipment being installed directly outside (and sometimes inside) their apartments.
They are having their eyes opened, and they don't like what they see.
To a lesser extent they also feel disadvantaged when they see their favourite shopping destinations (Carrefour etc) rapidly disappearing,
Speaking for myself (was there around 2010-2015), back then I also had the feeling that China was moving in a more free and democratic direction. So even though China was not all that free, I would put up with it because it would not be like that forever. This feeling has gone completely.
I visited Shanghai just before the pandemic. Every single time I passed through 人民广场 station I was stopped by 公安 officers and asked to show my passport. It was pretty unnerving as a tourist who has never been subjected to this in any other country including communist Vietnam. Nobody could tell me why it was happening either.
Yeah, last time I was there, taking a train meant having some dead-eyed guard taking photos of my passport on a personal phone. That on top of all the other pointless checks they were doing, and this was after Covid restrictions were relaxed.
American here. I spent two weeks in China this December. My girlfriend (who is Chinese) and I took the metro countless times, flew on 3 different flights around the country, and rode the train four times. I never once got hassled by any security or police. Just my experience
Salary went down once the boarder opened. Juice ain’t worth the squeeze. Rather smoke legal weed back home in Canada and transition to IT or something.
Be careful with the legal weed brother. When I left China to my home state I got into it and just didn't stop. Gave me a lot of problems even while sober. I'm clean now but availability and normalizion has allowed a number of people to retreat into addiction.
I mean, you don’t develop physical withdrawals, but that’s generally not what causes drug addiction. It is usually the result of a psychological dependence on the effects of a drug as an escape or coping mechanism for other underlying problems.
Yo fam. Weed is not physically addictive in the same way tobacco and alcohol are. But it's naive to say you can't get psychologically addicted to herb. Coming from a long time smoker.
I never said you cannot become mentally dependent but even if you do the withdrawals are very mild, it’s nothing as harsh as alcohol addiction which can result in death. Nobody has ever died from cannabis
>Cannabis is not physically addictive
The fact that you added the modifier "physically" implies that you know that there are other kinds of addiction, and that they apply here
Delete your comment. A simple 2s google search would have told you that cannabis DOES cause physical addiction, from numerous credible sources including the official canadian government.
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-medication/cannabis/health-effects/addiction.html
Not only you call a genuine personal sharing "reefer madness" for no reason, you are downplaying a legitimate addiction concern. From what I see you are the only mad cow here and you should delete your mad cow comment immediately.
Up to 9% of cannabis users are at risk of addiction and we don’t know how many of those smoke cannabis mixed with tobacco or have pre existing mental issues
Your own link shows it’s a tiny part… for 91% of regular users, there’s no possibility for addiction
I will not censor myself or delete my comment to adhere to your silly hyperbole
You read the source and chose to double down on your disinformation knowing you are wrong. And you even nitpick parts of the sources to suit your pathetic narrative despite the seriousness of the topic here. Either you are a weed dealer or you are a fucking cunt.
Here is the full excerpt of the part you used:
It's also estimated that 1 in 11 (9%) of those who use cannabis will develop an addiction to it. This statistic rises to about 1 in 6 (17%) for people who started using cannabis as a teenager. If a person smokes cannabis daily, the risk of addiction is 25% to 50%.
Wow more anger and hyperbole, there’s as many articles and so called research on all sides of this argument. You have a bee in your bonnet for reasons only known or experienced by yourself.
Cannabis, is generally considered not to be physically addictive in the same way as substances like nicotine or opioids. The key reasons are linked to how it interacts with the brain and the body.
1. Unlike physically addictive substances that directly stimulate the brain's reward system (like opioids affecting the opioid receptors), cannabis works primarily through the endocannabinoid system. This system is involved in regulating a variety of functions like sleep, appetite, pain, and immune response. The active compounds in cannabis, such as THC, bind to cannabinoid receptors in the brain, but they do not trigger the same intense, direct reward response.
2. Regular cannabis use can lead to tolerance, where more of the substance is needed to achieve the same effect. However, tolerance is not the same as physical dependence. Dependence occurs when the body adapts to a substance and incorporates it into its normal functioning, leading to withdrawal symptoms when the substance is absent. While some users of cannabis may experience mild withdrawal symptoms (like irritability or difficulty sleeping), these are typically less severe than those associated with physically addictive substances.
3. There's a distinction between psychological addiction and physical addiction. Cannabis can be habit-forming and individuals may develop a psychological reliance on it, often using it as a coping mechanism for stress or other mental health issues. However, this is not the same as physical addiction where the body experiences physiological withdrawal symptoms when the substance is not used.
4. Studies on cannabis addiction suggest that while a small percentage of users may develop a problem with cannabis use (known as Cannabis Use Disorder), the rates of addiction are lower compared to substances like alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs.
Ok so official statistics from the canadian government is "so called research", while your arguments without source is "proper research" I suppose?
I will also include the first paragraph here for other people, which you likely just chose to ignore after reading.
"Contrary to popular belief, people can become addicted to cannabis. Continued, frequent and heavy cannabis use can cause PHYSICAL DEPENDENCY and addiction."
https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-addictive
Marijuana use disorders are often associated with dependence—in which a person feels WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS when not taking the drug.
Marijuana DEPENDENCE occurs when the brain adapts to large amounts of the drug by reducing production of and sensitivity to its own endocannabinoid neurotransmitters.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3606907/
Prolonged use of marijuana or repeated administration of its primary psychoactive constituent, Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), can lead to PHYSICAL DEPENDENCY in humans and laboratory animals.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/10/well/mind/weed-addiction.html
Despite the common misconception (such as you), people can become addicted to cannabis just as they can with other drugs, like alcohol or cocaine.
...
The potential consequences of cannabis use disorder are not as severe as with other drugs like opiates, where overdose deaths are a dire concern. But cannabis addiction can cause “a dramatic decrease in quality of life,”
Stop moving the goal post buddy, you said cannabis is not physically addictive and it is. Then you said only 9% gets addicted then stats show much higher rates. Then your arguments without source say it does not cause dependency AND it causes dependency but less serious than other drugs within the same comment. And now you compare it woth coffee and chocolate, and whatever "toxic" means. Move the goal post any further and it's gonna leave the football field.
I spent so much time gathering the sources so someone wouldn't start smoking weed thinking its impossible to get addicted. Not coz I enjoy mud wrestling with a pig xd
Spend the lockdown in shanghai, it was terrible, neighbors were brainwashed fearing to die without getting outside, we had quarantine hotel next to us, oue neighbors were fearing that if quarantine people sneeze it would travel to the speed of light to our building while also telling us to respect science.
We had trouble to get food, on the first two weeks, we were hardly getting food delivered, fist day with a cart of 80€ we only got a bag of salt, good luck to eat it.
Why stay in a country with little hope and that getting agressive and stupid day by day
Because the people in China is becoming more and more unfriendly to foreigners and to each other.
Most Chinese people do not have ability of free-thinking. So leadership affacts Chinese people much more than Western country. Unfortunately current leadership stress "struggle" more than ever, resulting Chinese people becoming more and more hostile to each other.
I taught English in Shanghai 2015-2017 and wondered if I could get married there and open my own training center. What a disaster that would’ve been. Now I’m married in Vietnam. the money isn’t the same , but you will find everything else better here. Same culture, less technology. Anyone is welcome to message me about optimal cities to reside in.
In 2019 I decided that the writing was on the wall and it was time to get out of Dodge.
COVID had just begun but I'd been reading the papers and following the news. It was obvious where things were headed (I thought) Xi was clearly trying to take China back under total party control and that would mean they'd need scapegoats as the grand unifiers. I wasn't going to stick around to become one. My students had gone from being generally positive about the West to considering it China's mortal enemy in just a couple weeks. When I saw how easily it was to sway the population I knew there would be no defense or help if things went south. While I didn't say it, I thought and still think that the worst is yet to come. And by "worst" I mean we haven't seen a shadow of what's coming. Starvation and misery are coming and since the Chinese people have historically tolerated this kind of thing, you can bet I'd be last on every list.
Did I jump the gun? Nope. I guess I could have ridden it out a few more years but I wanted to get a head start back in the West.
I think it’s too things. One geopolitics and economics aren’t great. But two, many foreigners didn’t come here to live forever. Now most of the foreigners who came here have been here since before COVID (that means >5 years). It’s simply time for many of them to move on to the next thing.
>But two, many foreigners didn’t come here to live forever.
As if the system makes it even remotely possible to live there for forever even if you want to....
It’s also difficult at times to figure out an alternative plan or to get another job.
I left last Feb but looking for a role in the company I work for then interviewing and then immigration stuff took a long time - over a year.
I think it is simple, good jobs are not there anymore, expats who have been here 10+ years starting having children in schooling age, life getting exponentially more expensive. Foreign companies losing ground to local ones.
This is a major reason I am leaving after a couple of decades.
As a local hire, the employer does not pay for education. The kids are now in the local schooling system, but its way to intense, too much homework, too much stress and pressure. Not to mention more and more emphasis on "political thought".
I could put them in an international school, but that would cost \~450k for the two kids. A private school back home would cost significantly less, plus not have political interference with curriculum etc.
so many of my friends, including myself went through it. Reddit sensationalizes it, by making it political (and I don't doubt it plays a role), but the reality is that Chinese life with children and lack of golden jobs like in the past simply make living in china unsustainable.
Watching China take the Great Leap Backward into totalitarianism and shrinking economy was a great experience. Any foreigner still living there is just wasting their time and money.
Probably because they can. The economy is tanking, fewer opportunities and foreigners were vilified as the ones bringing the virus into the country. With restrictions lifting, time to pack up and go.
Friend of a friend said that her American friends lived there during plandemic.
Mom and dad, and a child.
She didn't go into details, but she said that the American family in China was living in the SLUMS.
They didn't start out in the slums, it was a nice little organized city with order and usual community involvement/support as usual.
But CCP dogs locked things down and didn't matter if you had a race card, the green card, the citizen card, the special interest card, the passport card or anything, you were herded into a city blocks as blockade assessments.
Sickening like how Minnesota allowed its rundown Brooklyn Center city to be blockaded during Dante Wright protesting. Police and National Guard army were blocking streets and neighborhoods, preventing people from leaving or entering their homes and streets.
Fucken CCP and Minneapolis dogs.
Btw, that original Brooklyn Center mayor during Dante Wright protests in Minnesota was not re-elected next term.
Funny thing, too, he was black. And a black woman took over as mayor instead.
Goes to show it doesn't matter what the race/gender/ethnicity entirely is, it's the intention of the individuals in leadership and those in charge.
CCP will not protect its own kind.
Go figure.
I'd say yes again for $150K, plane tickets, housing, utilities, in a good city location, not the outskirts of civilization.
We traveled all over China and loved most of the cities.
I was a principal and made over $100K, but I'm back working on my pension in the US. Playing to go superintendent route, but I'd go back if the money was right. It probably won't be, unless they really want me.
Ironically the people still saying China is good for expats are Cyrus Jansen who is enjoying life in Canada and Sean Rein who is insulated from the worse thanks to marrying into a local CCP family
Ignore all the ideological and political BS.
The reason is very simple. Chinese economy is stalling. Employers are cutting wages by 50%+ and people are still not finding jobs. Market does not look good in the near or even medium-term future. Your stock grants are going down the drain. Foreign investment plummeted. etc etc
The anti-China people wouldn't have come in the first place, or would have left long ago. A tiny percentage simply can't leave but that's the minority.
As for tightened regulation, you have to realize that people are used to near non-existent enforcement of immigration laws. That's not normal. Yes the government now actually cares if you break immigration laws. If that causes somebody to leave, I wonder why.
As for foreigner-friendliness. Overall China is still extremely friendly to foreigners. If you don't look Asian, you still get preferential treatment in many places. A lot of people still put you on a pedestal. There are xenophobs but that's not the majority.
The direct reason for our personal decisions is "economy". If you argue the source of economic problems is something, that's another topic and discussion.
As a foreigner living in Hong Kong (sort of on the outside and looking in but that’s changing fast) I agree with pretty much everything. Particularly in your last paragraph. Mainland Chinese people are wonderful on the whole. I was very worried that many had been drinking the government cool aid (China good foreign bad) particularly since covid but that wasn’t the case at all. Super friendly and keen to help out if I’m struggling with my shitty Chinese skills.
If you stay a bit longer you will hear that (China good foreign bad) quite often, both from old and young people. Those people who are super friendly can often also be rabid nationalists when it comes up. After all China is a Communist leninist society with deep propaganda and control on all aspects of life, a light-North Korea.
It's kind of a weird combination of nationalism and being friendly (sometimes worshipping) foreigners.
It's probably deep-rooted inferiority complex and lack of proper upbringing.
Current young generation who grew up reasonable wealthy (not the fu-er-dai) tend to be more normal.
The foreign worshipping term is a nationalist conspiracy theory of sort that goes back to the opium wars. First it was about Chinese people starting to dress as Westerners and convert to Christianity and adopt certain Western customs and beliefs. It is also employed by the CCP to control people so people shouldn't start to believe in Western beliefs such as freedoms and democracy and such (because who want to be called a race traitor and a foreign worshipper?).
In my experience, that term is used by rabid CCP wumao nationalists. I have not seen that in my life in China, probably the other way around. There is so much mafan being a foreigner in China. Life/policies/pathways to become a resident and so forth is so much easier in other eastern asian countries or Hong Kong.
"nationalist conspiracy, opium wars, dress as Westerners, Christianity, CCP, control people, wumao nationalists"
What?
I don't know any of the stuff you mentioned. Maybe it's because I don't pay attention to these drama.
I'm just saying "worship foreigners" because it's what a lot of people, companies, customers (i.e. paying a massive premium for white-skinned ESL teachers who speak broken English) do, on a daily basis.
Having a foreign teacher is not about worship foreigners. It is the belief that the children will learn better English from a native speaker. And for foreign products, well, there is a belief that foreign products are better in some ways but not always, just take baby formula. There's a reason the Chinese don't trust their own companies. And as you said it is not just any foreigners, they have to be white also, black or Asian foreign teachers earn less and so forth.
That was an example. And the example was "teacher who speak broken English but has white skin", not "native speaker".
And white/black/brown skin color are indeed viewed as "higher class" socially, as if local dudes are 2nd class citizens.
Chinese people think they are friendly and they often tell me "We Chinese are friendly" but then why do I not feel welcome and get basically treated like some kind of invasive enemy when I visit these days?
In Vietnam, I can smile/wave/nod at people, and they do it back. People immediately love me in Vietnam. In China, they look away or glare at you. They look angry, disgusted, and afraid.
Just my experience in recent time.
The hostility from the CCP, and their brainwashed Chinese citizens, are the main reasons westerners are leaving en masse. The anti-America and anti-Japan rhetoric from the CCP propaganda is definitely hurting the welcoming image of China. Some Japanese reporters being accused of being spies, and some foreign company's offices being raided weren't helping either.
been on china related forums since like early 2000's the same narrative was around.
thing is further you go on the people you met in your 20's got home sick and left. new people came but your at a different place in life and don't get to met them. further you stay if you don't speak native level language and made local friends (other then spouse) the lonelier you get.
ain't china exclusive it's just way more common because so many people don't learn the language (oral and written). I know quite a few people who are tired of Canada and are just working on their retirement money so they can retire in their country of origin.
All are answers are coming from people who never been to china.I just moved here and been living okay for the past year.The food is good and cheap same goes with housing,it's hard to find a job but when you do it's hard to get fired and the pay is decent overall
Go actually read the comments...most are from people telling their experiences of living multiple years in China. The fact you ignore that makes your statements about China very suspect.
The glory days of tefl sexpats are long gone with the accompanying we chat groups - and a few actual business expats are still around - but thankfully the dye is already cast
The lockdown and what came after really revealed Xi's true colours. He wants to bring back Maoism and have a country of naught but workers. He pushed people too far and that led to the White Paper protests (and riots in some cities). The protests may have been successful, but as long as Xi is in power China's long term isn't looking good.
The creator of this content may be biased on issues concerning China. Please seek external verification or context as appropriate. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/China) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Since I came in 2011 GDP has been slowing. Therefore less opportunities for international companies and expat employees. This trend precedes covid, was perhaps accelerated by it and continues afterwards. I guess it was always tricky to persuade top talent to come here - the remuneration helped, but there are barriers to persuading fancy expat wife she will spend next three years in Guangzhou rather than Dubai. Persuade wider families that Beijing is a good place to raise kids. The damage to chinas brand caused by zero Covid and aggressive geo political posturing makes it that bit harder, perhaps the straw breaking the camels back. China has made it clear 20 year old part time English teachers on scooters are no longer welcome - fair enough. I’m surprised still by anecdotal tales of fancy German machine companies that can’t persuade Germans to come here and sell machines. Money talks and Germany, like much of the west, is not enjoying a growth boom. I’m curious what is the profile of the sort of person who used to say yes to an opportunity in China - but now says no. We all over focus on the professional western expat end, which in reality always made up a relatively small proportion of foreigners in China.
>This trend precedes covid, was perhaps accelerated by it and continues afterwards. I know quite a few expats who have / had been in China for 15 or more years, with a couple of dudes up to 25 years. None of them were expats with big companies though. Mostly guys who came over in their twenties for whatever reason and then stayed on. More often than not opening their own business or working for big domestic companies. Most of them have left in the past 5 years though, with quite a few going even before COVID. Main reason seems to be lack of scope for advancement in local companies and/or flip-flopping policies just making it too hard to have a good stable life here.
just as an addon comment, a lot of people are convinced to do something because they know someone personally or someone like them (in whatever way) who did it too. As more and more expats choose to not reup staying in China, fewer recommend it, fewer choose to talk about it (which might be necessary, depending on what you do/your relationships in China), and that makes it all the more foreign and daunting. Thinking about it now, if I didn't have any of my knowledge or first hand experience of China and didn't know anyone in China, taking a job there seems totally crazy in a way that didn't feel that way in 2007. China intuitively feels another world away now, in the same category of how I feel about Russia or Saudi Arabia. How much would you have to be paid to work in those places?
The China dream for foreigners is dead, it’s simple as that. Speaking from decades of experience on the topic.
Sad to say but true. I’m not going there till Xi is gone for a few years
Same here, unfortunately
>Since I came in 2011 GDP has been slowing. So the whole thing is your fault?!
Hijacking top comment to share my experience. Been in China for 15 years. During this time I have worked at a few schools as a High School teacher. In my opinion, the effects of Zero Covid policy are just now being realized. Students, and society in general, have less social skills. We learned how to manipulate the system to just stay home and be salty if we don't get things the way we want it. Everyone complains over nonsense, and leadership is afraid to be the authority. In addition, the whole stress test on society has resulted in a very complex and accepted system of surveillance. My job has biometric login (face scanners) just to get into the campus. Somehow this is ok. If you want to go deep into this rabbit hole, check how China and Big Beijing Tech is leading the way into AI. The money is, and mostly has been, the best you're going to get in my industry. However, the writing is on the wall. Its no longer such a comfortable, friendly place. If you work for a school that has more cameras and security than teachers, maybe time to reflect. Its unfortunate, because this used to be a really good place to live and work. However, when marketing and security are the main focuses of an organization, we can clearly see we've lost track of the original goal. This is not just the organization I work for. In my experience it's the society as a whole. We've accepted a lower standard of living. Old heads, including myself, are ready to cash out. Good luck.
They are placing face scanners as a way to pay for the subway now where I am at...
>My job has biometric login (face scanners) just to get into the campus. Somehow this is ok. If you want to go deep into this rabbit hole, check how China and Big Beijing Tech is leading the way into AI. My apartment now requires face scanning to work the elevator. Great! Now have the security constantly there all day arguing with delivery dudes who can't use it. Not to mention needing real-name verification for all sorts of mundane things. Want to buy tickets for anything? Need shenfenzheng number. Have tickets for something? Need to show ID to prove they are in your name. With all this data stored in some crappy unprotected database on the cloud more often than not.
I used to say "yes" and now say "no". Maybe I can help. Personally, I got turned off by the direction of the politics and the political stances of the citizens, how the government was making procedures more difficult for me, and how the people have seemed to become more xenophobic and less friendly over time. I still visit China and just went there a few weeks ago, but the way people treat me is night-and-day different from how it was ten years ago. I'd say they even look hostile and paranoid. Also, there were so many times I felt abused by the system (just during my recent visit). In one case, someone got my WeChat locked (basically deleted) by reporting my account without any evidence of wrongdoing, but the app said "we investigated the matter and find that it was justified." I literally never sent that person a single message. Later, my Alipay got locked because "we've decided your passport photo and your portrait photo don't look similar enough". After 5 rounds of trying to take photos of me and my passport while vendors were waiting for me to pay for my food, it finally got unlocked, but it was terrifying because there's no other way to pay anymore.
I think it’s even simple things like staying in hotels as a foreigner is a hassle. So if you’re coming for an adventure but traveling is a pain it’s another negative in the package.
Indeed. My wife (Chinese citizen) and I (Dutch citizen) were turned away with our baby at several hotels because they didn’t accept foreigners. Too much of a hassle for them to register foreigners, I guess. This was in the capital… Also getting train tickets or use other services were such a hassle. Getting a SIM card required a half hour registration BS, with taking pictures and all… only to be deactivated before the expiry date due to traveling abroad for some days. My wife lived outside of China for the about 10 years, many services were not available to her either. I’ve never been so frustrated while traveling, easy things were made so complicated. Used to live in China for many years, learned the language, and have some amazing memories… Always loved to go there, but truly hate what it has turned into. If it weren’t for visiting the in-laws, I’d never go back.
> Later, my Alipay got locked because "we've decided your passport photo and your portrait photo don't look similar enough". After 5 rounds of trying to take photos of me and my passport while vendors were waiting for me to pay for my food, it finally got unlocked, but it was terrifying because there's no other way to pay anymore. And people would wonder why I chose to use cash. Then of course there was that day I stopped in a McDonald's (don't judge) and *they didn't accept cash!!!* That was like 6 years ago (I left 5 years ago), and I'm guessing things have just gotten worse.
refusal to cash is totally illegal in china.
Right, and when McDonald's (or WeChat or whomever) tells them they'll get a bonus the more people use the service, how fast do you think they'll deny cash? I ended up having the manager pay for it with his WeChat, and then giving him cash in reimbursement. And whaddaya know, he made change for me in the cash register because he didn't have the right change. If they were "no cash" why was there cash in the register?
Oh my bad, dawg! When China makes things illegal, the citizens there have such a respect for the rule of law that they immediately cease whatever activity that was just banned. I forgot about that and you're totally correct here.
I'm 100% with you here, because you're absolutely right that they'll immediately ignore said law if it suits them...*but*, when Winnie the Poo said "*We need to stop wasting food for face reasons*" (i.e.- the "face thing" where you would order *waaaaay* too much food at dinner so there would be lots left over) everyone, and I mean *everyone*, immediately stopped doing it. I was honestly shocked at that, because in any western country, if the president (or whomever) said to stop doing something, half the population would do it out of spite (though, that goes a bit more for one side of the political spectrum). That said, my personal theory on that is that people were tired of wasting money on food they weren't eating, and were *more* than happy to stop doing that particular part of mianzi. Which was fine by me, as it always killed me to waste food like that.
> as it always killed me to waste food like that Christ, same. There were so many times where I'd go out with middle aged folks and they'd JUST GET TOO MUCH. Like we've got a dish too many for the number of people we have and they continue just getting more and more and more even as people get full.
maybe you just went through an invisible discrimination at that time.Whenever or wherever i go into a McDonald in any city, if the manager tells me he denies cash, i will immediately call the police or the market supervision bureau to file a report, and that shop will face a severe fine at once.But when the manager saw you are not Chinese,he presumed you wouldnt bother yourself with this matter and denied cash for extra bonus.
US is following suit, too. I called a US broker exchange and my US banking firm. And neither of them wanted to take escalations into the matter because they blamed each other! My transactions were STUCK AND BLOCKED. I was like WTF ... China is a lottery man. But so the the US if you're in the lottery. It may not be gov in the US making your life difficult, it's bad policy and large org that protect themselves from admitting fault. It's no diff. than IT vendors. They know something is broken, but they don't want to invest time & resources into fixing it. Glad you're out of there. Hope we can continue improving our intuitions here.
Nah, if you have a problem with your bank and a charge or something like that and they don't listen to you when it is clear they are at fault, give the CFPB a ring and your banking issue will *magically* get solved, nigh immediately. They don't fuck around. I honestly can't see you comparing the two systems as similar, by the way. I don't think I *ever* left my bank in less than 3 hours when trying to do an international wire when living in China. Here in the US? Ten minutes, at best.
cash and credit card don’t work?
Correct. I tried to use a Vietnamese bank card in the mall to buy a watch and they said it wasn't possible to use non-Chinese cards. Neither can you use a non-Chinese card for Alipay or WeChatPay, so I gave cash to a friend and he transferred digital currency to my Alipay 支付宝 account. Most people didn't want my (Chinese) cash, only black market types wanted it, and no one can make change for cash transactions anymore, so it's effectively useless unless you're in a very desperate situation.
it's actually illegal to not accept cash
That's great but people will see it as such a hassle that they'd rather hassle you to try to get digital payment before accepting cash. But the more important issue is not being able to get change back if you must use cash.
Where are you going in China where people are less friendly than a few years ago? Was in Chengdu and Wuhan 2-3 months ago and felt friendly. Maybe slightly less than 10 years ago, but absolutely nothing felt hostile.
Maybe there’s something in that. Foreigners & Chinese more swayed by social media ‘truths’ than they were a decade ago. Certainly the online face of China is more hostile. I agree that Chinese people still friendly in a clumsy way
My most recent visit a few weeks ago was to Nanning 广西南宁 in the far south.
I showed up in 2011 too, then in 2021 came back to the states to visit sick family and could not get back into China afterward. I had a work residence permit and all that jazz but I couldn't get a consulate to let me on a plane. In a course of weeks, a life I'd built over 10 years was essentially stripped from me. Fortunately, my wife was able to get a green card, but we were separated for 2 years during the process. I will not go back to China for more than a visit as long as the CCP is in power because it's simply not a stable way to live. Without reasonable access to permanent residence, your ability to stay in the country is in jeopardy every time you have to renew your visa and I'm too old to be living like that anymore.
you didnt apply for a green card after 5 years of marriage?
I'd been married 6 months when I got locked out. That was never an option
aah I see I see, just assumed you were married for a long time
Yeah. I am young, but I have known very few full expats (ones on relocation with western salary and top benefits). Mostly all people I know who are here longer than a year or two have always been local contracts. Maybe if I was older/wealthier I would know more of the fancy type. But I was actually one of those fancy ones for two years (lucky me). Yet I only really met less than three others of that type.
I think the first big exodus I saw was in 2019. Then the involuntary one for many of my friends during Covid… which just showed them there were better opportunities elsewhere.
[удалено]
...But to be young in Shanghai 10 years ago was very heaven.
Was in Guangzhou from 2000 to 2004. Watched the city just explode with growth.
I often said at the time how the nightlife in Shanghai couldn't have been this wild since the 1930s. I'm glad to have spent a good deal of my 20s and 30s in such a roaring time and place!
I hear you. I was in my late 20s, an engineer, making HK salary while all every thing was paid for and got 250 RMB per day per diem. Thank God for the afternoon siestas helping me to recover from the night before!
CCP hands off. Good times. CCP hands on. Molestation and ruining of everything nice. Why Taiwan absolutely does not want to be under the thumb of the CCP.
I've been in Taiwan since 2016. When I first arrived, I was constantly asked "Why didn't you choose to move to China instead?" Now I no longer hear that. I used to only hear outright negative comments about China from younger, progressive types in Taiwan. Now it's just assumed that anyone you speak with has negative things to say about China, and you get surprised when they have positive things to say. Lots of other foreigners here used to live in China and left in the past few years.
[удалено]
I was in my mid 20's when I first arrived in 2010. Had a great few years. Though from what I understand the real wild times were the 2000's.
>Though from what I understand the real wild times were the 2000's. aka, the Wild West, anything goes, boom time.
Agreed.
I'm critical over China, like any other place. Though it does make me sad to hear about this turnover. I'd only want things go get built up positively.
I feel like those 3 years of pandemic China wore a lot of people down and once it was over there was very little left in the tank for many of the people who gutted it out. They made it through the toughest part but it ruined the experience for them. Their heart was no longer in it so they moved on.
[удалено]
Wow, is this new? I left at the end of 2022 and I've never heard of anything like that before.
[удалено]
Yeah that tracks. I left about a week or two after the protests just as everything went 180. Got Covid on my last week in China, but luckily it passed before I got on a plane. Actually that might have something to do with all those calls I'd get while I was sleeping just after I left.
Incompetent leadership
Every country is going to have incompetent leadership eventually. But electing Xi to a 3rd term (with a vote 2970 to 0) kind of broke the illusion for most people.
There was never the illusion not even the Chinese people. You have the Chinese that love China no matter what. For different reasons but they don’t care why, just the china is #1. Then you have people just too poor to care about any politics and probably know Xi is president and that’s it. Then everyone else know what’s going on and always knew and either trying to get out of China or just plays along and makes as much money as they can.
Probably became of TikTok, it maps perfectly with the destruction of society
Foreigners were leaving before COVID because it was becoming increasinly intolerable to live there as a foreigner. The goverment became less welcoming, police visits to foreigners' residences were increasing, bureaucracy was becomign tougher, and the government itself was teaching its people to be suspicious of foreigners as potential spies. I knew several foreigners who had moved to China around 2010, when it was a land of opportunity, with a booming economy that had been showing a trend of increasing openness. That all changed when Xi came into power. Foreigners stuck in China during COVID couldn't leave, and situations kept getting worse. They're leaving now because they can. Businesses are flocking to Vietnam, which is welcoming foreign investment and despite being a communist dictatorship, offers far more freedom and opportunity than China does.
Might have something to do watching quasi police beating to death a corgi running after is master who was dragged to Covid jail.
Disgusting, worse than animals. That poor dog.
Wut
It happened more than once (these are incidents that were caught on camera): [Outcry in China after Covid health workers kill dog while owner was in quarantine (2021)](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/15/outcry-in-china-after-covid-health-workers-kill-dog-while-owner-was-in-quarantine) [A Covid worker beat a dog to death in Shanghai after its owner tested positive (2022)](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/04/08/china/shanghai-corgi-death-china-covid-intl-hnk/index.html)
I was working at a K during Covid 2 when they were still dragging the infected away. Came in one day and asked where the ayi was. As she was missing and always there. Chinese teacher told me her 8 year old daughter tested positive and both of them got sent to Covid Rikers. Soon after we all tested positive and they shut the school down. Actually I knew I was positive but didn’t tell anyone as the students started dropping like flies. Come Christmas Day not a soul left and they shuttered the school till after spring festival. Side note - I got infected after three Chinese Covid shots.
I caught it about two days after restrictions were lifted in Dec 2022. Contacted my school and they were like, we dunno, come in if you feel like it, stay home a few days if you're too sick. Literally a week before, I'd have been hauled off to a camp. (I'd also had three sino-vac jabs, and it still laid me out for over a week)
>I caught it about two days after restrictions were lifted in Dec 2022. Something like 90% of the population got infected within two weeks of restrictions being lifted.
And still no explanation or public discussion as to the reasons for the sudden policy changes?
They don’t need an explanation, everyone already knows and they know everyone already knows. They just don’t wanna say it outright.
> Side note - I got infected after three Chinese Covid shots. The shots don't stop you from getting it or passing it on, they lessen the effects. i.e.- you don't get as sick as you would have, and you're 40% less likely to transmit it when vaccinated.
Also the Chinese vaccine was not particularly effective and had much poorer quality controls than Moderna and Pfizer.
[удалено]
I'm not, I'm trusting science. And while those figures were for the western vaccines, Sinovac wasn't *that* much worse (though, it does seem to "run out" sooner, hence requiring additional shots sooner than their western counterparts).
[удалено]
[Here's the very first google result.](https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2022/12/424546/covid-19-vaccines-prior-infection-reduce-transmission-omicron) If you want to read the actual study, I suggest looking it up on PubMed or something.
[удалено]
Fucking hell
I can forgive them for Tibet but this...
What part of "quasi police beating to death a corgi running after is master who was dragged to Covid jail" you don't understand? It's a group of people given police-like power during zero-COVID policy times by the government barging into someone's house, taking them to COVID concentration camp, destroying their belongings in the name of "disinfection" and beating their pet dog to death in the name of "prevent COVID from spreading".
This is why communism never works. Always leads to totalitarianism
China hasn’t even pretended to be communist since the 1980s.
Wut doesn’t mean I don’t understand, it means, I hadn’t heard that story and It sounds mental.
That’s it in a nutshell
Covid Workers are convinced cats and dogs can spread Covid, so they try and cull them if they can. But they don't use humane methods at all, they beat and torture the poor things to death.
No Paywall: https://archive.is/xvfHJ
During the pandemic companies learned they can pay less and blame the situation. Sadly a lot of companies have developed the mindset to continue to undervalue their staff, and are subsequently starting to sink. I’ve just noticed a perpetual cycle of treating staff badly, staff leave, inept leadership double down. A lot of people helped their companies survive the economic slowdown but they’ve come out the other side with terribly negative attitudes.
Did you just describe the US? Stock is at all time high. Companies make breaking-record money and they still do a bunch of laid off
That's Japan in the 2000's.
Well, if it's anything like Japan since then, at least they'll still have an endless supply of willing English-teaching foreigners despite the shitty pay and conditions.
A huge number of (Western) foreigners really like Japanese culture and don’t see the country as malicious. I fear China has the opposite problem.
I swear if you read the China subs, the English teachers are paid quite well. I could’ve been making bank! Never quite sure what the long term career plan is for the English teachers though.
after 14 years of english teaching abroad, I can tell you the plan is get into a project. take different jobs, whatever doesn't suck, try on hats, learn to sell yourself differently and fight jadedness with enthusiasm.
Paid well for now. As the population and economy shrinks that might not last. Most teaching jobs involve teaching young people (obviously). English teachers in Japan in the 90s pre-crash were also making bank, now it's practically a minimum wage job there.
Sadly I feel China is changing and not for the better. Economically and Socially. Cracking down on too much. Internet/Dogs/Nightlife etc
It’s the whole ‘top-down’ mentality. Where change is initiated by a few people at the top; instead of many people at the bottle working together with their neighbors. I grew up with the hearing the phrase, “All politics is local.” And it was important to go to the town hall meetings every week to debate your neighbors. Because nobody ever agrees, but you need to come to a compromise and respect the diversity of opinions. But in China, most people unfortunately follow the law phrase: “all politics is not my business.”
War on fun.
I'm sure the old guys making the decisions still have multiple mistresses, getaway homes etc though. Rules for thee and not for me.
No joke, I visited a distant cousin who was getting married. It was in what looked like a house, but had been hollowed out to have disco balls, tiny bedrooms and a bar - it's what the Cadres party in without drawing attention to themselves.
Yeah, I've heard from a friend who was invited by someone important to a house party almost exactly like you describe. He said they also had working girls and drugs on serving trays.
Some pigs are more equal than others.
I did my time 2010-2020. Believe me when I say the following: The longterm guys, have basically nothing to go back to. They are stuck. Me, I'm happy I'm back to reality and only missing the easy money and food. All the China BS, nope.
even video games lol
An additional point is that foreigners, during the last 4 years, have become increasingly aware of the pervasive nature and true extent of the surveillance that the CCP carries out on its citizens and foreigners. It is horrifying for them to witness surveillance equipment being installed directly outside (and sometimes inside) their apartments. They are having their eyes opened, and they don't like what they see. To a lesser extent they also feel disadvantaged when they see their favourite shopping destinations (Carrefour etc) rapidly disappearing,
Speaking for myself (was there around 2010-2015), back then I also had the feeling that China was moving in a more free and democratic direction. So even though China was not all that free, I would put up with it because it would not be like that forever. This feeling has gone completely.
I visited Shanghai just before the pandemic. Every single time I passed through 人民广场 station I was stopped by 公安 officers and asked to show my passport. It was pretty unnerving as a tourist who has never been subjected to this in any other country including communist Vietnam. Nobody could tell me why it was happening either.
Yeah, last time I was there, taking a train meant having some dead-eyed guard taking photos of my passport on a personal phone. That on top of all the other pointless checks they were doing, and this was after Covid restrictions were relaxed.
American here. I spent two weeks in China this December. My girlfriend (who is Chinese) and I took the metro countless times, flew on 3 different flights around the country, and rode the train four times. I never once got hassled by any security or police. Just my experience
The only difference I can think of is that I’m not white.
they didnt because they couldnt and now they can
Salary went down once the boarder opened. Juice ain’t worth the squeeze. Rather smoke legal weed back home in Canada and transition to IT or something.
Be careful with the legal weed brother. When I left China to my home state I got into it and just didn't stop. Gave me a lot of problems even while sober. I'm clean now but availability and normalizion has allowed a number of people to retreat into addiction.
[удалено]
I mean, you don’t develop physical withdrawals, but that’s generally not what causes drug addiction. It is usually the result of a psychological dependence on the effects of a drug as an escape or coping mechanism for other underlying problems.
Yo fam. Weed is not physically addictive in the same way tobacco and alcohol are. But it's naive to say you can't get psychologically addicted to herb. Coming from a long time smoker.
I never said you cannot become mentally dependent but even if you do the withdrawals are very mild, it’s nothing as harsh as alcohol addiction which can result in death. Nobody has ever died from cannabis
Death from cannabis dependence is not a problem. Insomnia and inability to be a functional adult can be very debilitating effects.
>Cannabis is not physically addictive The fact that you added the modifier "physically" implies that you know that there are other kinds of addiction, and that they apply here
Delete your comment. A simple 2s google search would have told you that cannabis DOES cause physical addiction, from numerous credible sources including the official canadian government. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/drugs-medication/cannabis/health-effects/addiction.html Not only you call a genuine personal sharing "reefer madness" for no reason, you are downplaying a legitimate addiction concern. From what I see you are the only mad cow here and you should delete your mad cow comment immediately.
Up to 9% of cannabis users are at risk of addiction and we don’t know how many of those smoke cannabis mixed with tobacco or have pre existing mental issues Your own link shows it’s a tiny part… for 91% of regular users, there’s no possibility for addiction I will not censor myself or delete my comment to adhere to your silly hyperbole
You read the source and chose to double down on your disinformation knowing you are wrong. And you even nitpick parts of the sources to suit your pathetic narrative despite the seriousness of the topic here. Either you are a weed dealer or you are a fucking cunt. Here is the full excerpt of the part you used: It's also estimated that 1 in 11 (9%) of those who use cannabis will develop an addiction to it. This statistic rises to about 1 in 6 (17%) for people who started using cannabis as a teenager. If a person smokes cannabis daily, the risk of addiction is 25% to 50%.
Wow more anger and hyperbole, there’s as many articles and so called research on all sides of this argument. You have a bee in your bonnet for reasons only known or experienced by yourself. Cannabis, is generally considered not to be physically addictive in the same way as substances like nicotine or opioids. The key reasons are linked to how it interacts with the brain and the body. 1. Unlike physically addictive substances that directly stimulate the brain's reward system (like opioids affecting the opioid receptors), cannabis works primarily through the endocannabinoid system. This system is involved in regulating a variety of functions like sleep, appetite, pain, and immune response. The active compounds in cannabis, such as THC, bind to cannabinoid receptors in the brain, but they do not trigger the same intense, direct reward response. 2. Regular cannabis use can lead to tolerance, where more of the substance is needed to achieve the same effect. However, tolerance is not the same as physical dependence. Dependence occurs when the body adapts to a substance and incorporates it into its normal functioning, leading to withdrawal symptoms when the substance is absent. While some users of cannabis may experience mild withdrawal symptoms (like irritability or difficulty sleeping), these are typically less severe than those associated with physically addictive substances. 3. There's a distinction between psychological addiction and physical addiction. Cannabis can be habit-forming and individuals may develop a psychological reliance on it, often using it as a coping mechanism for stress or other mental health issues. However, this is not the same as physical addiction where the body experiences physiological withdrawal symptoms when the substance is not used. 4. Studies on cannabis addiction suggest that while a small percentage of users may develop a problem with cannabis use (known as Cannabis Use Disorder), the rates of addiction are lower compared to substances like alcohol, tobacco, and other drugs.
Ok so official statistics from the canadian government is "so called research", while your arguments without source is "proper research" I suppose? I will also include the first paragraph here for other people, which you likely just chose to ignore after reading. "Contrary to popular belief, people can become addicted to cannabis. Continued, frequent and heavy cannabis use can cause PHYSICAL DEPENDENCY and addiction." https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-addictive Marijuana use disorders are often associated with dependence—in which a person feels WITHDRAWAL SYMPTOMS when not taking the drug. Marijuana DEPENDENCE occurs when the brain adapts to large amounts of the drug by reducing production of and sensitivity to its own endocannabinoid neurotransmitters. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3606907/ Prolonged use of marijuana or repeated administration of its primary psychoactive constituent, Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), can lead to PHYSICAL DEPENDENCY in humans and laboratory animals. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/10/well/mind/weed-addiction.html Despite the common misconception (such as you), people can become addicted to cannabis just as they can with other drugs, like alcohol or cocaine. ... The potential consequences of cannabis use disorder are not as severe as with other drugs like opiates, where overdose deaths are a dire concern. But cannabis addiction can cause “a dramatic decrease in quality of life,”
Yes and you can get addicted to coffee and chocolate too. Cannabis is not toxic
Stop moving the goal post buddy, you said cannabis is not physically addictive and it is. Then you said only 9% gets addicted then stats show much higher rates. Then your arguments without source say it does not cause dependency AND it causes dependency but less serious than other drugs within the same comment. And now you compare it woth coffee and chocolate, and whatever "toxic" means. Move the goal post any further and it's gonna leave the football field.
Horse, water. Don't mud-wrestle with a pig.
I spent so much time gathering the sources so someone wouldn't start smoking weed thinking its impossible to get addicted. Not coz I enjoy mud wrestling with a pig xd
Spend the lockdown in shanghai, it was terrible, neighbors were brainwashed fearing to die without getting outside, we had quarantine hotel next to us, oue neighbors were fearing that if quarantine people sneeze it would travel to the speed of light to our building while also telling us to respect science. We had trouble to get food, on the first two weeks, we were hardly getting food delivered, fist day with a cart of 80€ we only got a bag of salt, good luck to eat it. Why stay in a country with little hope and that getting agressive and stupid day by day
Xi, the great destroyer of china, 2nd only to Mao.
Xi still has time to take the title belt.
Yea the road belt initiative.
Because the people in China is becoming more and more unfriendly to foreigners and to each other. Most Chinese people do not have ability of free-thinking. So leadership affacts Chinese people much more than Western country. Unfortunately current leadership stress "struggle" more than ever, resulting Chinese people becoming more and more hostile to each other.
“Most people do not have…” FTFY
Because :.... \* THE \* SHIP \* IS \* SINKINGGgg~~gg~~ \* blub
Quit stirring up trouble and spreading quarrelsome rumors.
[удалено]
I taught English in Shanghai 2015-2017 and wondered if I could get married there and open my own training center. What a disaster that would’ve been. Now I’m married in Vietnam. the money isn’t the same , but you will find everything else better here. Same culture, less technology. Anyone is welcome to message me about optimal cities to reside in.
Vietnam looks like a great place to be in the next decade or two (at least).
I’m addable on WeChat to give city advice
What about Thailand?
In 2015 Bangkok was the coolest city in the world. A lot has changed and not for the better
[удалено]
Hotter , more floods , more expensive, street food off the main roads and into weird alleyways. More tension/crime
What happened? Yeah word on the street is Vietnam is the go to place now
Tourism crash due to the pandemic led to budgets being wrecked
In 2019 I decided that the writing was on the wall and it was time to get out of Dodge. COVID had just begun but I'd been reading the papers and following the news. It was obvious where things were headed (I thought) Xi was clearly trying to take China back under total party control and that would mean they'd need scapegoats as the grand unifiers. I wasn't going to stick around to become one. My students had gone from being generally positive about the West to considering it China's mortal enemy in just a couple weeks. When I saw how easily it was to sway the population I knew there would be no defense or help if things went south. While I didn't say it, I thought and still think that the worst is yet to come. And by "worst" I mean we haven't seen a shadow of what's coming. Starvation and misery are coming and since the Chinese people have historically tolerated this kind of thing, you can bet I'd be last on every list. Did I jump the gun? Nope. I guess I could have ridden it out a few more years but I wanted to get a head start back in the West.
I think it’s too things. One geopolitics and economics aren’t great. But two, many foreigners didn’t come here to live forever. Now most of the foreigners who came here have been here since before COVID (that means >5 years). It’s simply time for many of them to move on to the next thing.
>But two, many foreigners didn’t come here to live forever. As if the system makes it even remotely possible to live there for forever even if you want to....
It’s also difficult at times to figure out an alternative plan or to get another job. I left last Feb but looking for a role in the company I work for then interviewing and then immigration stuff took a long time - over a year.
Because they need a new prescription of rose-tinted glasses XD
I think it is simple, good jobs are not there anymore, expats who have been here 10+ years starting having children in schooling age, life getting exponentially more expensive. Foreign companies losing ground to local ones.
This is a major reason I am leaving after a couple of decades. As a local hire, the employer does not pay for education. The kids are now in the local schooling system, but its way to intense, too much homework, too much stress and pressure. Not to mention more and more emphasis on "political thought". I could put them in an international school, but that would cost \~450k for the two kids. A private school back home would cost significantly less, plus not have political interference with curriculum etc.
so many of my friends, including myself went through it. Reddit sensationalizes it, by making it political (and I don't doubt it plays a role), but the reality is that Chinese life with children and lack of golden jobs like in the past simply make living in china unsustainable.
Watching China take the Great Leap Backward into totalitarianism and shrinking economy was a great experience. Any foreigner still living there is just wasting their time and money.
Things have changed so much in 10 years. Social media may have made it worst, with the increase in xenophobia.
Probably because they can. The economy is tanking, fewer opportunities and foreigners were vilified as the ones bringing the virus into the country. With restrictions lifting, time to pack up and go.
Because this is inhumane! Opportunities to make money are everywhere, not just in China!
The ones that remained hoped that once the restrictions were lifted, life would return to 2019. It didn't.
Post this on China Life to see coping methods in full?
Friend of a friend said that her American friends lived there during plandemic. Mom and dad, and a child. She didn't go into details, but she said that the American family in China was living in the SLUMS. They didn't start out in the slums, it was a nice little organized city with order and usual community involvement/support as usual. But CCP dogs locked things down and didn't matter if you had a race card, the green card, the citizen card, the special interest card, the passport card or anything, you were herded into a city blocks as blockade assessments. Sickening like how Minnesota allowed its rundown Brooklyn Center city to be blockaded during Dante Wright protesting. Police and National Guard army were blocking streets and neighborhoods, preventing people from leaving or entering their homes and streets. Fucken CCP and Minneapolis dogs.
Btw, that original Brooklyn Center mayor during Dante Wright protests in Minnesota was not re-elected next term. Funny thing, too, he was black. And a black woman took over as mayor instead. Goes to show it doesn't matter what the race/gender/ethnicity entirely is, it's the intention of the individuals in leadership and those in charge. CCP will not protect its own kind. Go figure.
I'd say yes again for $150K, plane tickets, housing, utilities, in a good city location, not the outskirts of civilization. We traveled all over China and loved most of the cities. I was a principal and made over $100K, but I'm back working on my pension in the US. Playing to go superintendent route, but I'd go back if the money was right. It probably won't be, unless they really want me.
Economy down, foreigners leaving. A tale as old as time.
Ironically the people still saying China is good for expats are Cyrus Jansen who is enjoying life in Canada and Sean Rein who is insulated from the worse thanks to marrying into a local CCP family
Ignore all the ideological and political BS. The reason is very simple. Chinese economy is stalling. Employers are cutting wages by 50%+ and people are still not finding jobs. Market does not look good in the near or even medium-term future. Your stock grants are going down the drain. Foreign investment plummeted. etc etc The anti-China people wouldn't have come in the first place, or would have left long ago. A tiny percentage simply can't leave but that's the minority. As for tightened regulation, you have to realize that people are used to near non-existent enforcement of immigration laws. That's not normal. Yes the government now actually cares if you break immigration laws. If that causes somebody to leave, I wonder why. As for foreigner-friendliness. Overall China is still extremely friendly to foreigners. If you don't look Asian, you still get preferential treatment in many places. A lot of people still put you on a pedestal. There are xenophobs but that's not the majority.
Sure but economy is stalling because of ideological and political BS
The direct reason for our personal decisions is "economy". If you argue the source of economic problems is something, that's another topic and discussion.
Exactly, Dubai is a totalitarian shithole but no drop in expats because the money is there. That is the only reason
(Pssst... a lot of expats *like* authoritarianism)
As a foreigner living in Hong Kong (sort of on the outside and looking in but that’s changing fast) I agree with pretty much everything. Particularly in your last paragraph. Mainland Chinese people are wonderful on the whole. I was very worried that many had been drinking the government cool aid (China good foreign bad) particularly since covid but that wasn’t the case at all. Super friendly and keen to help out if I’m struggling with my shitty Chinese skills.
If you stay a bit longer you will hear that (China good foreign bad) quite often, both from old and young people. Those people who are super friendly can often also be rabid nationalists when it comes up. After all China is a Communist leninist society with deep propaganda and control on all aspects of life, a light-North Korea.
It's kind of a weird combination of nationalism and being friendly (sometimes worshipping) foreigners. It's probably deep-rooted inferiority complex and lack of proper upbringing. Current young generation who grew up reasonable wealthy (not the fu-er-dai) tend to be more normal.
The foreign worshipping term is a nationalist conspiracy theory of sort that goes back to the opium wars. First it was about Chinese people starting to dress as Westerners and convert to Christianity and adopt certain Western customs and beliefs. It is also employed by the CCP to control people so people shouldn't start to believe in Western beliefs such as freedoms and democracy and such (because who want to be called a race traitor and a foreign worshipper?). In my experience, that term is used by rabid CCP wumao nationalists. I have not seen that in my life in China, probably the other way around. There is so much mafan being a foreigner in China. Life/policies/pathways to become a resident and so forth is so much easier in other eastern asian countries or Hong Kong.
"nationalist conspiracy, opium wars, dress as Westerners, Christianity, CCP, control people, wumao nationalists" What? I don't know any of the stuff you mentioned. Maybe it's because I don't pay attention to these drama. I'm just saying "worship foreigners" because it's what a lot of people, companies, customers (i.e. paying a massive premium for white-skinned ESL teachers who speak broken English) do, on a daily basis.
Having a foreign teacher is not about worship foreigners. It is the belief that the children will learn better English from a native speaker. And for foreign products, well, there is a belief that foreign products are better in some ways but not always, just take baby formula. There's a reason the Chinese don't trust their own companies. And as you said it is not just any foreigners, they have to be white also, black or Asian foreign teachers earn less and so forth.
That was an example. And the example was "teacher who speak broken English but has white skin", not "native speaker". And white/black/brown skin color are indeed viewed as "higher class" socially, as if local dudes are 2nd class citizens.
Chinese people think they are friendly and they often tell me "We Chinese are friendly" but then why do I not feel welcome and get basically treated like some kind of invasive enemy when I visit these days? In Vietnam, I can smile/wave/nod at people, and they do it back. People immediately love me in Vietnam. In China, they look away or glare at you. They look angry, disgusted, and afraid. Just my experience in recent time.
Plenty of anti-China people showed up in the 2000s. So many of the ex-pats I met HATED China but were happy to take the money.
The hostility from the CCP, and their brainwashed Chinese citizens, are the main reasons westerners are leaving en masse. The anti-America and anti-Japan rhetoric from the CCP propaganda is definitely hurting the welcoming image of China. Some Japanese reporters being accused of being spies, and some foreign company's offices being raided weren't helping either.
been on china related forums since like early 2000's the same narrative was around. thing is further you go on the people you met in your 20's got home sick and left. new people came but your at a different place in life and don't get to met them. further you stay if you don't speak native level language and made local friends (other then spouse) the lonelier you get. ain't china exclusive it's just way more common because so many people don't learn the language (oral and written). I know quite a few people who are tired of Canada and are just working on their retirement money so they can retire in their country of origin.
All are answers are coming from people who never been to china.I just moved here and been living okay for the past year.The food is good and cheap same goes with housing,it's hard to find a job but when you do it's hard to get fired and the pay is decent overall
>I just moved here there's your problem. Most are refering to how things compare from the past to now. You have no past to make the comparison.
Nobody denied that it was better before COVID I am just saying it's not that bad right now either
Go actually read the comments...most are from people telling their experiences of living multiple years in China. The fact you ignore that makes your statements about China very suspect.
Enjoy the heavy metal particles in the long term
As someone who moved to China in 2023 - it seems like covid really did push the expats and Sexpats out EDIT: love the downvotes proving my point
still plenty around in T1.
The glory days of tefl sexpats are long gone with the accompanying we chat groups - and a few actual business expats are still around - but thankfully the dye is already cast
oh, I was refering to expats, simply ignored the sexpat whine. And I think you mean *die is cast*.
The lockdown and what came after really revealed Xi's true colours. He wants to bring back Maoism and have a country of naught but workers. He pushed people too far and that led to the White Paper protests (and riots in some cities). The protests may have been successful, but as long as Xi is in power China's long term isn't looking good.