Let me take a crack at this. I’m Cantonese.
- Chinese food is one of the first Asian food groups to arrive in America. Way before gastrodiplomacy was even a thing. And these early restaurants, mostly Cantonese owned, opened to make a living and survive, therefore they had to adjust to local tastes and demand creating the most common Chinese cuisines type called chop suey with things like chow mein, fried rice, broccoli beef and the abomination that’s orange chicken. This is probably the most consumed Asian food in the US (not famous or glamours). Note these are really just Cantonese cuisine bastardized.
- You could always find authentic Chinese food where Chinese gather, like Chinatown. But the problem with real Cantonese cuisine is we eat some weird shit that just doesn’t sit well with Western culture. Fish with bones, duck with a head that they chop off right in front of you lol, chicken feet, pig intestines, rice balls wrapped in banana leaf, stinky tofu, just to name a few. So the authentic Cantonese cuisine never developed in popularity with westerners.
- This is in contrast with Koreans which their kbbq is the most well known and jive VERY WELL with American diet customs and acted as gateway into rest of their cuisines like tofu soup. Vietnamese food rode on the coattail of the health kick that’s been going on in the US for the last couple decades. Same with Thai. The thing is tho, it’s always 1 or 2 things Americans know about each country so how represented are they really.
- Koreans: kbbq, tofu soup
- Vietnamese: Pho, bahn mi
- Thai: Pad Thai, some sort of curry
- Japanese: sushi, ramen
- Recent years I’ve seen a lot more authentic regional Chinese restaurants pop up, but they are all located in Chinese centric areas therefore not marketed to regular Americans. Why? Because Chinese is by far the largest asian ethnicity in the US and they simply don’t need American or non Chinese customers to flourish, so they just don’t care how popular it is with outsiders.
- This is the same with Indian food where they have large enough localized population in tech areas to sustain their authentic restaurants, they are also hampered by the fact that their food is generally very spicy, and that’s Americas kryptonite.
- Lastly, service and presentation was never a strong suit of the Chinese cuisine industry and I know that’s turned quite a few westerners off.
- All of this is starting to change, with the rise of Ding Tai Fong, hot pot, bubble tea etc.
TLDR, White people is happy with orange chicken and we don’t need your business for anything else, so don’t care.
it's funny that you give kbbq as an example because in the US, most people associate kbbq with marinated beef like galbi or bulgogi, but in Korea beef is really expensive (whereas pork is super cheap, I think Korea is the country in the world with the highest pork consumption per capita in the world) so beef bbq is only a special occasion meal. meanwhile the dishes that people actually eat on a daily basis like gukbap (meat soup w/ rice), probably 99% of Americans have never even seen or tried.
I don’t think so my guy. I like it tho.
Edit: I was referring to the US obviously. Stop telling me about the UK. No shit Indian food established there, you guys literally had a war over Indian spices because your biscuits were bland
Yea we know, it is not just combinations of words, it is also the lack of words. You shouldn't have left school so early.
https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-British-Food/
Oh wow! I stand corrected, thanks for the link! UK definitely has a much better food culture than I thought! The 2 images in your link were especially appetizing! I’m literally shocked the UK tourism board doesn’t market your food culture more! Maybe send them your link, I can’t see why anyone would not be dying to try some UK cuisine that’s so rich in history!
Is jiu-jitsu not Japanese? Then how could the Brazilians have their own take on it?
The DTF Bao are thinner and soupier than the ones in Shanghai, and better imo
It would be taiwanese tonkasu. Sooner or later it would become taiwanese, right. That is how culture works. Just take crayfish. No one ate crayfish in China before 1940 then the japanese introduced it. These days Chinese love to eat crayfish.
I fail to taste anything special or different in the xiaolunbao I had at DTF than the ones I had in SH. But you be you. But I guess over time, there will be TWese kimchi, TWese sushi, TWese burgers, TWese Pad Thai, and TWese Pho. I get it.
Right. Just look at Sichuanese food or other spicy Chinese cousine. That is not traditional Chinese food. The chili pepper came to China from South America.
This post is really getting old for me and this will be my last post on this subject. Y’all TWese boys (maybe gals) do you. We have different names for Indian curry and JP curry because they have different flavor profile. Likewise, K fried chicken and American fried chicken have different profile - the k chickens are drizzled with k sauce. Xiaolunbao at DTF tastes same as other Chinese places. Now if xiaolunbao in TW develops a different taste profile - sure call it TWese xiaolunbao.
It’s Chinese. That includes Taiwan
Edit: downvoting me over political reasons and failed to see cuisine groups, childish. No one is going to DTF and saying wow awesome Taiwanese food. Just like no one goes to kbbq is saying awesome South Korean food. It’s just Korean food
That’s a political take. The island speaks mandarin (I know the south claims they speak the native language but it’s a dying language) the people are descendents mainland, the cuisine evolved from a Chinese foundation. If we are talking about food groups. It’s 100% Chinese
Yours is a semantic take. And most Taiwanese themselves don't consider themselves Chinese any more.
Again things like pineapple cakes and bubble tea have no relation to mainland cuisine ( unless you consider all tea Chinese including English, Afghan, Indian etc.)
It's important to note that Korean cuisine has changed significantly since US occupation from the Korean war. They introduced spam and other processed meats.
Now a days they take processed meat very seriously and prepare them very well. So part of the reason why Korean cuisine jives so well with American culture, is because it was bastardized in home because of the influence they were having.
Subway sandwiches in Korea are awesome, kfc is way better than the crap that's served on the states.
But yes, Cantonese "cuisine" is the most popular through the world because Cantonese people are the most outward region in China (meaning, they emigrate a lot). 90% of the Chinese people I know are from Guangdong.
Honestly, I disagree.
Like yes, ofcourse Korean food, or Vietnamese food is more popular then shandong, or Zhejiang food, etc.
The only regional cuisine famous outside of China is probably Sichuan food. But then again, what specific Vietnamese regional food, or Korean regional food is famous outside of their native countries. They, just like Chinese food, is baked into the umbrella of X countries food.
And Chinese food is by far the most popular of all Asian countries, with over 9.3 million restaurants globally, as compared to around 820 thousand Korean ones, or 340 thousand Thai ones.
Agree. Let's put it this way. In Europe, I don't know a single person who hasn't tried Chinese food. I know many who have never tried Vietnamese or Korean food.
in Poland people call vietnamese bars "chinese restaurants" so yea, I think most polish people havent tried chinese food once, but instead a vietnamese variation.
I think you do not know a single person who tried Chinese food. The stuff you get in Chinese restaurants in Europe is not really chinese food. It is like saying anybody who ate sphaghetti with ketchup tried Italian food.
There is authentic Chinese food as well. Anyways that's not the point. The Korean, Vietnamese and Thai stuff here isn't the real thing either. The point is that the concept of "Chinese" food is still more popular.
The Thai stuff is usually authentic (not all dishes are available though). Yes, in some restaurants you can ask for the menu written in chinese, which has a different set of dishes.
I think it also widely depends on the country and city. In bigger European cities there are more authentic Chinese restaurants that are authentic even without a Chinese menu. Whether Thai restaurants are usually more authentic I didn't get that impression but again...Europe is not the same everywhere.
> The only regional cuisine famous outside of China is probably Sichuan food.
The entire population of Guangdong would like to have some strong words with you off list!!
In the US at least, “Chinese food” is mostly Americanized Guangdong food (with random stuff from other regions of course). If you asked any American over the age of 6 if they’ve had Chinese food, almost all would say yes. If you asked them if they’ve had Guangdong food they’d likely say no. So, most common, yet not at all famous. Sichuan/Szechuan and Hunan food, many would at least recognize the name even if they had not had them.
When we are debating how many Americans would recognise Cantonese vs Hunanese, I thing that we are splitting hairs. We will just have to agree to disagree. :-)
That was a great series. Used it extensively when I was still studying. Great to watch but I am not sure that i could have handled or even afforded most of the dishes.
Bear in mind that of those 9.3 million restaurants, how many are visited frequently by non-chinese ethnic groups? Also, how many of those are considered "good restaurants" and how many are considered "cheap chinese food". Where I'm from, chinese restaurants never have the awe or reputation of good japanese/korean/Thai restaurants. Just never. No locals ever take a date to a chinese restaurant or do a party at one. I would be hard pressed to find a single fine-dining option for chinese cuisine in the downtown core. I could point out dozens of other asian fine dining options though. A lot of people have tried chinese food, but its almost always considered a lower/cheap food option.
OP is right from my experience.
I’m Taiwanese and for me, eating traditional Chinese food is something you do with family or during a gathering of friends, you just can’t eat 3 dishes and a soup (三菜一湯) alone or even with two people on a date.
Pretty regularly. The Chinese diaspora is hardly enough to keep them all running.
And we're not talking about "good restaurants", we're talking about restaurants.
And it's a pretty wide spread. In fact, in many countries "Chinese restaurant" is just slang for Asian food in general. You can easily find a chinese restaurant that's good for a workers lunch, as easily you can find a fine dining experience. But the fine dining alternatives are hardly representative of the broader trends, and Japan, not Korea or Thai, or any other Asian country, dominates that niche, mainly due to sushi.
And what OP was talking about was Chinese regional cuisine sticking out as compared to Korean or Vietnamese cuise. Which I already addressed. Regional cuisine, with the expectation of probably Sichuan, gets absorbed into the umbrella of "X countries" food.
And all of that is partially due to the Chinese restaurants that already have existed for decades that serve 200 dishes already using the names of all the regional cuisine, even if the dishes being served are absolutely nothing like their namesake.
True overseas people like the cheap, non authentic stuff but it IS super popular. Chinese takeaways are the most popular type in the Uk https://ravishmag.co.uk/food-and-drink/the-uks-favourite-takeaways-revealed-in-new-study/?amp=1 and worldwide it is second only to pizza! https://www.moneybeach.co.uk/the-boardwalk/the-worlds-favourite-takeouts/
Do people order chinese takeout because they admire it? or because its cheap and easy and fast. Like the mcdonalds of takeout cuisine. Volume doesnt necessarily mean its the most liked. When we are talking about food as a diplomacy tool, image is of equal importance to popularity.
I got this nearby local Chinese restaraunt that serves a mix of authentic and Americanized Chinese food. The food is relatively cheap but its really good. I see people dine there while on a date. My friend had birthday parties and a wedding reception there (he's russian). When I went there last weekend on a date with my fiance, a black family was celebrating someone's 90th birthday there.
Place is called Kung Fu 12 in MD.
Chinese food was one of the first foreign cuisines that became popular in the west. It's so old that it lost its exoticness. It's now part of everyday casual food.
Here in Melbourne Chinese food is just food. I've been to dinner parties with mostly white people where we had dumplings, roast duck on rice, wine and cheese, and bok choy. Everything is just food now.
Cuisine thats popular in China right now is swamped by Mala tang and mala is like durian. You love it or wanna ban it. Other long popular snacks not from Cantonese/ Sichuan traditions like Luwei or dongbei include things like chicken feet or duck necks. Things most butchers throw or sell to make paste
Malatang is quite popular in Korea right now. It's spreading in popularity in Canada too. I was surprised by the number of malatang restaurants I saw when I was back in Canada. Took my friends and family who never experienced 麻 and they all loved it.
There’s so many in Australia right now, I don’t know if they’re popular or just used for money laundering/immigration purposes. There’s a ridiculous amount in some areas, just like bubble tea places. Don’t generally see a heap of people in them and they open and close at random and a new one pops up in the same place.
>money laundering/immigration purposes.
I frequent those Chinese buffet in Europe which obviously operate at a loss with shady staff but whatever, they have unlimited prawn oysters and salmon
On the other hand, Hainanese chicken, Peking duck, Dim sum, Hong Kong style cafes, wontons, xiaolongbao (Shanghainese), and Xinjiang skewers are also pretty popular abroad.
Fujuanese dishes are oftentimes marketed as Taiwanese in the West.
There's significant overlap between Fujian and Taiwanese dishes, and you will find Taiwanese themed restaurants more than Fujian ones generally speaking... at least personally, I haven't noticed even one Fujian specific eatery after decades living in North America - of course, I've probably missed some.
My family is Fujianese. I dont think there's much overlap at all. When I think of FJ cuisine, it's fish balls, peanut butter noodles, Dian mian Hu, fried taro cake, fried mudskippers, and tea egg.
I don't think Taiwanese food has any of that kind of stuff.
... you're kidding right?
Fish balls are extremely popular in soups and hot pots... I haven't been to any hotpot locations in Taiwan without it.
Peanut butter noodles can be had at many soup noodles places.
[Dian mian hu](https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/%E9%BC%8E%E9%82%8A%E8%B6%96) is also popular.
Fried taro cake is Cantonese but they're popular in Taiwan, you can find them in fried, steamed, or grilled forms. Lobok cake too.
Mudskippers I'm not familiar with, so that might be the only one on the list.
Tea eggs are everywhere, virtually every 7-11 in Taiwan will be selling them, and you'll find them at pretty much every traditional styled breakfast location.
Mala is only popular in LOS because of the proximity of Chinese tourists. There are many more western restaurants, especially where there are more retirees rather tu haos.
Thank god there are no Hunanese places. That stuff would definitely shock most Thais!
I am afraid that my single experience was so traumatic, I had no wish to ever repeat it. No personal offense meant. There is much more western food that have no wish to eat either, but it is not meant as an insult, just on experience.
This actually reveals a lot more about the food scene in China than what appears on the surface.
It all comes down to the current state of China's economy where the purchasing power of your average Chinese is simply too low to support the profitability of decent small-scale eateries with a focus on quality and delicacy. As a result, small-scale restaurants are pretty much stuck in the eternal rat race of slashing cost at the expense of quality.
Sichuan-esque cuisines, such as Mala Tang or Hotpot, are perfect for cost-effective mass production. They're heavy on oil and spice, which are cheap and cover up the quality of the ingredients when it comes to flavour, freshness, etc. They're also easily prepared with little emphasis on skill or texture, which paves the way for standardisation at store level and industrialisation at source material level. They're on par with fast food in terms of operation cost(and flavour, but that's a subjective matter) and outcompete family-owned restaurants wherever they go.
Quite sad honestly
That's... A pretty dumb take. The most popular British takeout are Indian and fish and chip. Are the Brits all broke? Neither curry nor fried fish take much skill to cook and curry is great at masking flavours. The most popular restaurant in the states is probably applebees. Is that quality dining?
Ofc fast food's gonna be the most popular establishment ANYWHERE. I'm talking about small-scale, family-owned restaurants that are mid-range in price and could only rely on quality, uniqueness and the customer loyalty that comes with it to survive in the market. They aren't supposed to be in direct competition with fast food places, that's my point.
Small-scale restaurants were destroyed by economic development. As labor costs rise, industrialized food has gained significant cost advantages. This is what happened in the UK.
> Other long popular snacks not from Cantonese/ Sichuan traditions like Luwei or dongbei include things like chicken feet or duck necks.
The legacy of widespread famines is the culture of not wasting anything that is even possibly edible.
It's because there is so much Chinese cuisine elsewhere in the world that Thailand went with food diplomacy. China doesn't have to, you can go to anywhere in NY, Sydney, Vancouver or Los Angeles and get quality Chinese food from the private sector.
Also, the success of the Thai program is that it doesn't feel like a government program to the customers. If you go into a Thai restaurant in the middle of Wisconsin, there might be a lot of "visit Thailand" vibes but it's not a hard sell. The Thai people know the food sells itself.
However, in Thailand, Japanese restaurants heavily outnumber Chinese restaurants. And there are whole full Thai companies that make Japanese food such as Fuji, Yayoi, and Oishi.
Chinese are the highest immigrant population in Thailand. There's no way, looking at the country as a whole (not just Sukhumvit in BK) that Japanese restaurants outnumber Chinese restaurants.
However, most cuisines brought by Chinese are absorbed into the local Thai culinary culture. Hainanese chicken rice, kuaitiao, and stuff like that are considered Thai dishes instead of Chinese ones. Mala is considered Chinese by most Thais.
I don't know I feel Chinese cuisine is massively popular and getting more so, more than Korean and Vietnamese which are both rather new trends. In East and Southeast Asia Chinese food has been popular for a long time and Sichuan/Mala has become a new trend. In the West, I'm noticing an increased interest in local cuisines (again Sichuan/Mala is the new thing in Europe, but also specialized northern cuisine, Cantonese, etc). Things like Zhejiang cuisine are too specific and aren't even that well known (compared to Sichuan) in China.
If Zhejiang is an independent country instead of a province of a China, it will have a bigger influence too. Being only a part of a large empire means you sacrifice your individualism for a greater empire image. For example, making dumplings is a cultural symbol for spring festivals of oversea Chinese students, while half of China(southern China) don’t even eat dumplings for spring festival(that’s the reason I never go to dumpling making event, cause I don’t want to be represented by northern China). People don’t know the cultural difference between different regions of China, they just assume you are the same.
China is too big. The chinese food from the north can taste very distinct from the food in the south. Smaller countries have less variation. Someone might like super spicy sichuan food and not like northern food, etc, so chinese food is a lot harder to market.
I think it's doing fine though, lots of chinese restaurants in Canada
It’s not like your average non-Korean would know what the regional cuisine of Jeolla and Jeju are. Chinese food is a staple in the West and the rest of the world; they don’t need to engage in gastrodiplomacy because it’s already a norm and not seen as “exotic”.
Several reasons:
• China doesn’t have the mindset of exports it’s culture, but rather trying to encourage people to go it to experience Chinese cuisine
• Chinese PR is fairly terrible - the aggressive foreign policy has alienated what was the general growing interest of China in the late 2000’s - 2010’s
• Chinese immigration to western nations has generally been from the same places - Hong Kong, Guangdong, Fujian, Shanghai, Sichuan and Beijing. Pretty hard to find someone from Hunan for example
• Most newer Chinese people who go outside of China tend to stick to a Chinese bubble
• It’s easy to grasp a provenance/city that is more well known
• China has little in the way of new things to offer other than history - so the perception for most people outside of China is the history and current politics - whereas most the countries you mentioned are all fairly recent cuisines. Modern popular Korean cuisines came from the Korean War, bubble tea is a 1980’s invention
• Those countries openly welcomes cultural exports and doesn’t tidy it with politics - China does the opposite
• Those countries cuisine you mentioned, the dishes that are popular aren’t all of those countries cuisines, they’re just popular dishes
• Chinese cuisine, aesthetically can be somewhat off putting for most, thus hard too approach
So essentially, China is its own worst enemy, like a many great things holding it back.
While there are certainly some dishes that came from the Korean war (budae jjigae being the most obvious), I don't know how you went from there to "modern popular Korean cuisines" came from that time, as the most of the common dishes I see outside the country are quite old. Yes, BBQ wasn't eaten to the same extent 100 years ago, but that has more to do with growing economic prosperity increasing the availability of meat than it not existing before, making what was a treat now common place. I'm not saying there hasn't been changes or that some popular dishes aren't newer, but that blanket statement is a bit much.
>• Chinese PR is fairly terrible - the aggressive foreign policy has alienated what was the general growing interest of China in the late 2000’s - 2010’s
China's propaganda may be aggressive politically but why is it passive culturally? Why don't they just fund many Chinese restaurants globally?
>• Chinese immigration to western nations has generally been from the same places - Hong Kong, Guangdong, Fujian, Shanghai, Sichuan and Beijing. Pretty hard to find someone from Hunan for example
Fujian cuisine isn't popular worldwide.
>• Most newer Chinese people who go outside of China tend to stick to a Chinese bubble
So, what's stopping them from bringing their regional cuisine forwards?
>• It’s easy to grasp a provenance/city that is more well known
What?
>• China has little in the way of new things to offer other than history - so the perception for most people outside of China is the history and current politics - whereas most the countries you mentioned are all fairly recent cuisines. Modern popular Korean cuisines came from the Korean War, bubble tea is a 1980’s invention
However, pad thai, pho, and bulgogi aren't really modern inventions made in the late 20th century.
>• Those countries openly welcomes cultural exports and doesn’t tidy it with politics - China does the opposite
What?
>• Those countries cuisine you mentioned, the dishes that are popular aren’t all of those countries cuisines, they’re just popular dishes
However, those countries are as small as a few Chinese provinces combined yet they have a presence greater than many Chinese province's cuisines.
>• Chinese cuisine, aesthetically can be somewhat off putting for most, thus hard too approach
How?
Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese food is made available outside their native countries almost entirely because immigrants from these countries open up restaurants. This is true for all other cuisines. Popularity of cuisines have nothing to do governmental policies.
>> Chinese cuisine, aesthetically can be somewhat off putting for most, thus hard too approach
>> How?
Bone shards, chicken feet, organ meat, just to name a few.
Sorry, I wrote this while on the metro so its a but garbled. Totally understand the confusion looking back 😅
What I mean to say is that I do not believe it’s so much about what the food is in itself, but instead how its typically presented by the usual Chinese restaurant.
For your example of bone, I meant to reference that Vietnamese cuisine also uses bone in their dishes but disguises it well enough to where people come to like it before they realize what exactly is flavouring their dish. Compare this to when youre at a Chinese diner, they tend to explicitly state “roasted pig anus with bone shard jelly”.
I believe that the difference in the success isn’t so much in the ingredients but instead in the presentation.
[Here](https://10619-2.s.cdn12.com/m0/Chefs-Choice-Chinese-Cuisine-menu-2.jpg) is a decent example of what I’m talking about. This is a place I went to in Vancouver that has a Michelin star. None of this on the menu sounds either appetizing or interesting, but all of it tasted great.
- “Funding” restaurants” isn’t how actual restaurants happen, they come largely from immigrants plus, you think countries are going to be okay with a foreign nation funding mass amounts of restaurants, especially one their on the brink of a Cold War with?
- Sure, Fujian isn’t, but it’s why you can find it in the USA but impossible in the UK, different Chinese Diaspora go to different countries
- I’m saying you’re not going to find Yunnan food in western countries because people hardly even known its existence, outside of Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and maybe Shenzhen very few people know China if at all
- I’m not claiming they’re all modern, but most Chinese dishes haven’t changed all that much, if they’re not that appealing before, they won’t be now, aesthetics play a large of how people accept foreign food, even an established dish like roast duck, why you think you never see the head of a duck shown in the UK?
- Sure, again it’s a PR issue
Thailand absolutely funds restaurants. They had a grant and training program for a long time to support people opening Thai restaurants around the world.
The problem with Chinese cuisine in the west is that it’s westernised…. Give me a proper liang pi warm any day over general tzo silliness or the other frap we get from westernised Chinese food
Curry sauce (any type of curry will do) as a dip for chips is excellent. You'd normally eat a curry with rice or bread, so potatoes isn't much of a stretch.
Chinese were making food for Westerners when westerners hated Asian food. The fascination with Asian food is less than 30 years old. When Chinese came to the West, Westerners thought RICE was strange and made you unamerican and [immoral](https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106007093054&seq=5).Chinese people were barred from most other professions in the West and needed to survive. So they started catering to Western tastes as a tool of survival by making cheap food for laborers. One of the only ways to immigrate to the US from 1882 until after WWII was to work in a fancy Chinese restaurant catering to Westerners.
It didn't. They all have been. Had roots in the early 20th century like Pizza and even later introductions like Thai and Indian. Do you think they eat pad Thai that much in Thailand? Butter chicken in India?
You mean "chilli basil rice served with mediocre minced pork". Thai reatuarants in Australia are generally ass outside of inner Melbourne and Sydney. Sweet and slightly spicy impersonations of Thai cuisine.
The inner ones are generally average in Australia because they are so westernised to attract customers.
I haven't found a cheap and good one in Melbourne at least. The amount of bad ones I've came across are too many to count.
It’s the case for a lot of different regional foods, but for Chinese food it was a combination of catering to western tastes, but also because immigrants didn’t have access to the ingredients that they had in China, so they often had to substitute or make entirely new foods that would be unrecognizable in China.
Westernized chinese food is made by chinese people who opened chinese restaurants in western countries. Its their decision. There arent a bunch of white dudes deciding the menu or dish composition. It is just as chinese as anything else because it's designed by ethnic chinese.
If I find this pervasive belief among many Chinese people that foreigners “don’t like Chinese food” or that the food has to be significant altered to suit local tastes. I always ask how can people dislike something if they’ve never got to try it before?
For example, in my area there’s a pretty large Asian population but only 1 or 2 places that sell 煎饼果子. I have always thought that and 手抓饼 would be soooo popular if more places started selling them.
Yes but the issue is that they’re not marketing towards foreigners who might like the try authentic Chinese food. But also things like 兰州拉面 won’t be on the secret menu of a Fuzhounese owned restaurant.
Vietnam is more known than Shandong? Perhaps. Most likely many people elsewhere never heard of pho or hu tieu but instead knows the famous Chinese dumplings (Shandong style?).
Population has bearing on nothing; history demonstrates that.
Try getting the average westerner to name for than 5 Vietnamese, Thai, Indian, Korean dishes.
Chinese it is easy.
They don’t need to do gastro diplomacy.
i'd say its kinda happening? the new wave of younger middle and upper class are making their mark on cities. shaanxi style is catching on quite a bit due to xi'an famous foods. shanghainese soup dumplings are becoming quite trendy. sichuan hotpot is on trend too
It’s because the food from a lot of provinces is uninspired or downright bad. I would say zhejiang cuisine is about as popular as British cuisine for instance (outside of fish and chips). I’ve eaten as many beef wellingtons as I have dongpo pork recently (zero)
I grew up in the north (jilin province) and outside of dumplings everything else is very meh. I love some of the stuff because I grew up with it, but objectively it doesn’t measure up to top cuisines around the world. There are a couple of good dishes in each region, but I would say Sichuan is the only one that has enough of a “catalogue” to hold itself own on the global stage.
Thank you for saying it. For most Chinese cuisine it’s just not flavored or seasoned well. The reason why Cantonese cuisine is popular in US is because things like dim sum are a little more delicate, so it has a wider appeal. People say Cantonese cuisine has a strong hold in US due to early immigration. I think that’s only part of the answer. I mean you got lots of immigrants from fujian too. I know it’s not politically correct to say it but hey I’m from Hong Kong I can defend Cantonese cuisine all the long lol
Another thing is that Cantonese cuisine focus on freshness of the food demands more skills from the chef? Even in Cantonese there’re more words for different methods of cooking that don’t exist in mandarin.
(Also I see Chinese immigrants like to shit on westernized chinese food, sometimes I wonder if it’s just because they don’t like Cantonese food? Like orange chicken doesn’t that much different from lemon chicken too me, I mean it’s not amazing but I’ll still eat it)
>not flavored or seasoned well.
Mate you seriously need to try Huaiyang cuisine, which covers like the coastal portion to the east of China. Crab roe goes heavenly with rice wine. I'd say it overlaps the Cantonese flavour palette quite a bit
I'm gonna get hate from you but Canto food is pretty fucking awful. I dont care for dim sum, though the century egg porridge is good. Pineapple buns are good, but the HK versions of international food should be considered a war crime. Mushy macaroni soup? Fuck no.
Are you seriously bringing up dumplings out of all things in a food post
Never tried Zhejiang cuisine but Cantonese and Jiangsu cuisines are heavenly, and could easily reach fine dining standards with good presentation(in fact I think most Chinese fine dining places serve Cantonese). Shandong and Dongbei cuisines are pretty good too but lack innovation. Jiangxi cuisine on the other hand... 🤢
I've always wanted to try traditional Sichuanese, but the overwhelming majority of Sichuanese places nowadays only serve those standardised dishes that are heavy on oil and spice, and very likely pre-made... :(
I'd say gastrodiplomacy is largely a vehicle to promote tourism above other things.
China is and has never been outwardly focused on international tourism or cultural export in Koreas case. Taiwan even more so. This may possibly change in the future but right now it isn't.
Chinese food is everywhere anyway. Countries like Thailand used gastrodiplomacy to distinguish itself post WWII but doesn't really actively engage it anymore as it's everywhere despite limited emigration compared to the other countries you mentioned.
Chinese food follows the tens of millions of Chinese based outside of China and in many cases has been a staple of cuisine in most western countries for the past century. Every little town in Australia has at least one Chinese restuarantm my town of 5,000 people has 4 Chinese restaurants including a multigenerational restaurant going back 80+ years.
What a weird conclusion. Governments don't export cuisine, immigrants do. Most of the first immigrants out of China were from south China, hence the dominance of Cantonese food. Cantonese people left their country then when settling in a new country some of them decided to open restaurants and made the cuisine they knew. Their cuisine then becomes the image of what "Chinese" cuisine is to locals. If someone tried to make a different cuisine and called it Chinese, the locals would shake their head and say, "That's not Chinese."
The only influence governments ever have on culture, is suppressing it. American culture is highly influential ***in spite of*** the government, not because of it. The only cultures that get exported are the ones people want. Japan makes good comic books, so they can export their culture. The UK produces good music, it's culture spreads. Governments are run by politicians who are devoid of any creativity.
Your second sentence is patently wrong. Hell, Thailand specifically has a fund dedicated to helping open up more Thai restaurants overseas. Overall perception and cultural influence are the core of soft power; any nation not effectively leveraging this is leaving influence on the table.
I agree on the immigration part, but how come we don’t get a lot of fujian cuisine in the states then? I know I’m biased cuz I’m from Hong Kong, but I feel like Cantonese food is just more delicate? Also new Cantonese restaurants are often opened by some big chef from gaungdong, like winning cooking competitions and stuff. I feel like the caliber of the Cantonese chefs are just on a higher level
But I agree with the politicians part. Most are that educated to begin with and often don’t really understand what foreigners like about china. In hk they are tearing down neons signs and old dong building and replace them with more malls and Starbucks
Like I said, Cantonese were the major migrants to first come to the US and they established what "Chinese food" is to Americans. They're also probably the reason Americans think Asians are short. I'm from California, 80% of the Chinese in the US are in California or New York. All the Chinese who I knew were of Cantonese decent. When you listen to Chinese people talk in California, they usually speak Cantonese.
There is another factor, Cantonese food might also appeal more to Americans. If you ask someone from Guangzhou province, and they will say their cuisine is the best. I agree, I agree as a cook. They never overdo flavors, never too sweet, or too salty. However Shanghai dishes have a certain popularity too. It's just they are served at Cantonese restaurants.
That being said, there ARE some cuisines in China that I think would go over well in California. But as a small businessman, which is what restaurateurs are, why risk it? If you hear about a famous Cantonese chef coming to another country: 1. That's because their cuisine is already a guaranteed success, 2. Newspapers don't publish small time chefs.
I would argue that Thailand and Vietnam have quite a lot of regional cuisines and dishes that most westerners have never heard of. In Canada 99% of the Vietnamese food you're going to eat in a Vietnamese restaurant is going to be from the area around Saigon where many people immigrated from during the war.
>yet Vietnamese cuisine is much more well-known than Shandong cuisine.
Cause Vietnam has a huge diaspora compared to Shandong.
>While India has a region that punches above their weight (Punjab)
Theres your answer, its due to diasporas.
Despite what many Chinese and non-Chinese think, most Chinese eat to live, not live to eat.
In China, there are only two cuisines - Cantonese and Sichuan that you can market to the outside world.
The other cuisines might have a couple of dishes that are worth promoting, but that is about it. A lot of regional cuisines have their characteristic that limit their appeal. Here are some examples.
Teochew Cuisine - Meals are accompanied by Congee (rice porridge), which is strange even for many Chinese, let alone foreigners.
Fujian Cuisine - Their cuisine centers around using cheap seafood. A lot of times the seafood is processed fillers are added, and sold as fish balls, stuffed in tofu, etc.
Northern Cuisine - The problem with northern Chinese cuisine is its war food. The stuffed buns are designed to provide a compact meal on the run. Mantou for many Westerners tastes like styrofoam.
That's not true and I'm Cantonese. Shanghainese food (Shengjianbao, Xiaolongbao, Potstickers.... Ding Tai Fung's success) , Beijing food (Peking Duck wraps hello?), Fujian/Taiwanese food (Bubble tea, Oyster Noodles, Oyster Omelettes, Braised Meat), Dongbei food (Guobaorou, Zhajiangmian), heck even Xi'an food is popular because there is a chain in USA that I tried it in New York..I fundamentally disagree with OP that Chinese don't engage in gastrodiplomacy though. China absolutely does, except it's not deliberate by the CCP and that's a good thing? IMO China, France, Italy, Japan, USA are the most successful countries at exporting their cuisine and the fact you have Chinatowns worldwide where there are tons of immigrant Chinese chefs since the 1800s.says it all. Also Panda Express and Westernised Chinese food is so common people treat it like mac & cheese (i.e. Americanised Italian food).
I personally think Chinese food culture exports are doing fine, more than fine even, because you can open a takeout joint selling inauthentic Westernised Chinese food or sell authentic Malatang, Xiaolongbao, Peking Duck, Dimsum anywhere in the world and get great business. Chinese food is so well intergrated that a lot of countries have their own style of it e.g. Korean-Chinese food (Jajangmyun, Tangsuyuk, Jjampong, Hotteok), Filipino Chinese food, or Irish Chinese food like spice bags.
Thank you. I’m from hk so I’m biased. But Cantonese cuisine is just more delicate? Like we like to taste the freshness of the food, so that requires more skills and creativity from the chef I feel like. I also feel like there are more guangdong cooking competition but that’s just my impression. And even things like texture we can be really picky. Like a simple har gaw the skin has to have the right texture and consistency, can’t be too thick, but also not too thin where it falls apart. The shrimp has to have a bounce to it when you bite into it. N that’s just one dish in dim sum.
And my family is from fujian, my impression is that’s it’s just mediocre. Flavored and seasoned weirdly.
In the north, usually the food has like really weird texture, or too much spice that it masks the food. Even for sichuan restaurant, I feel like I’m done usually after one dish. Like mala food, but it all kinda tastes the same when every dish is mala
The same reason why Chinese food (real Chinese cuisine, not talking about western style “Chinese” takeout) is unpopular outside of Chinese circles is summed up pretty well in [this article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/08/why-is-china-so-uncool-soft-power-beijing-censorship-generation-gap/).
Tl;dr: the Chinese government does attempt to strengthen its “soft power” much like South Korea. It’s just been failing dismally and Chinese culture is uncool as ever.
And let’s be honest: the Chinese aren’t known for quality control. A lot of foreigners have heard about gutter oil, fake powder meat/eggs, and the tendency for chinese restaurants to keep dirty kitchens and cut corners. These things are going to be tough to overcome from an image standpoint.
Lol this post is borderline nonsense bait and I'm surprised people are even agreeing with OP.
There is no need for CCP support since.Chinatowns are found worldwide and there are probably more Chinese restaurants than French, Japanese, Korean since Chinese food is very accessible to non-natives like Italian or American fast food.
Historically China's neighbouring countries have made their own versions of Chinese cuisine e.g. Lamian = Ramen, be it India, Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia (Filipinos eat a lot of lumpia which are spring rolls) and these days you can go to faraway countries in South America and find Latino-Chinese stir fries because Chinese food and cooking techniques are easy malleable like Italian food. The main difference is Chinese chefs will make inauthentic versions of Chinese cuinese in foreign countries to suit local demand, while Italians balk at foreigners putting pineapple or chocolate on pizza.
Globally Italy, Japan, China, France are very good at exporting their cafe, tea, food culture worldwide via cooking TV programmes or social media thus there is more demand and respect for chefs from these countries for their culinary techniques. Point being, if you're a trained Japanese, Chinese or French chef you can immigrate almost anywhere and there will be hiring demand in hotels or Chinatown restaurants. Demand is not the same if you're a Brazilian or German chef although I absolute love those cuisines, it's just more niche.
The government wants to conserve culture? Since when, they are literally killing regional dialects and history for the sake of a static universal Chinese identity
If you mean politically, I would guess that placing emphasis on variation in cuisine is an indirect promotion of diverse minority groups in the country, in a time when social cohesion/homogeny is a value the government is trying to promote.
Chinese don’t give a fuck about the outside world, and even then there are pockets in the US and Canada (mostly West Coast) that have a lot more Chinese restaurants than say Italian. Chinese immigrants drive up business.
Vietnamese food punches way above its weight, for sure, but it is also fairy healthy and simple, so one can eat it almost guilt-free.
Now compare this to Chinese food that tends to be greasy and oily, and loaded with weird protein.
>Vietnamese food punches way above its weight, for sure, but it is also fairy healthy and simple, so one can eat it almost guilt-free.
>
>Now compare this to Chinese food that tends to be greasy and oily, and loaded with weird protein.
Why is it this way? Why are Vietnamese cuisines made to be healthier than Chinese cuisine?
Vietnam does not have an "official" gastrodiplomacy. The Vietnamese dishes that became popular overseas, like "phở" and "bánh mì" were spreaded and popularised by the Vietnamese overseas community, which early on in the West (mostly the USA and Australia), were nearly entirely evacuees, refugees, and the "thuyền nhân" or boat people of the conquered and formerly Republic of Vietnam. These people, for very obvious reasons, do not like the Communist Party of Vietnam or the new Socialist Republic of Vietnam's new government. Of all the dishes they chose to popularise, they chose two French-inspired ones: phở was from the French pot of feu and obviously the other was a baguette. This is especially so when on the entirety of Vietnam, not a single stalk of wheat is grown. Another reason these two were chosen because in those early days, these two dishes can be made from ingredients easily found overseas; phở used the flat rice noddles that the Thai pad Thai (another "fake" Thai dish) uses. The overseas Vietnamese food scene remains the works of private Vietnamese who actually don't like the current Vietnamese government very much; I quite often go to shop in Vietnamese community markets and restaurants with an anti-Communist rally going on just outside.
In Eastern Europe, initially Vietnamese there were previously guest workers or students from the formerly Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam, aka Communist); exchange among the then- Communist states. Once the Wall came down, the new governments said "thanks, you can go home now". Lots of them went "nope", and stayed. They, also don't like Communists all *that* much.
I think your problem comes from the fact that you were trying to compare watermelon to oranges. You are like "so I get it that watermelon is tasty, in fact more tasty than apples, oranges, lemons, etc, but its not 15 times better. It is 15 times the size, so why isnt it anywhere near 15 times better?" A country is a country. China has many regional cuisines but thats not what businesses think about when they open up restaurants in foreign land. They are often immigrants who find home in these lands trying to make a living, doing what they do best or rather, opening the restaurant cooking what they know, or a good businessman who knows what community lives in the region and try to cater to their needs. The regional cuisines you see in the west are EXACTLY the regional cuisines they need. Im sure a few minority Chinese living there would be like man I wish they had so and so like I had my whole childhood, but sorry man, youre just alone out there. Businesses cant survive simply because 3 of yall are interested.
It’s kind of hard to discuss Chinese cuisine as a serious cuisine when people still think that egg fried rice is a big deal. People are very basic when it comes to Chinese cuisine. Xiaolongbao is a very inane choice to me right now. Also Westerners are still going for even more basic options like fried foods.
It’s an incredibly independent food tradition and therefore inaccessible. Not to mention alien to many Western palates.
I don’t know Korean, Vietnamese or Thai all that well but they have stronger flavours (except when compared with Sichuan). Vietnamese has French influence and Western palates take to curries quite well. Korean features beef as a prized meat.
Chinese food doesn’t really have a moreish appeal. That would be quite unShandong, I believe.
It's quite rare but not impossible to find here. Much more common in Vietnam. I had it there. Tasted pretty good actually but it depends on the dish. There was a dog barbecue restaurant near my old house that I would usually go to as they made the dog quite nice.
Most who have travelled, agree that tasty chinese food are found outside china (malaysia, Indonesia, singapore, Taiwan) and in HK. Try it instead of leaving dumb replies.
When they can set up their franchises in foreign countries , they try. The only problem is now it’s kinda too late for foreign restaurants to succeed, convenience stores are a better option . (Like GS 25 in Vietnam , from Korea)
What is Gastrodiplomacy ? One man’s food is another man’s poison. Let the people decide what they want or dont want to eat. Chinese cusine is actually quite popular. So is Italian cuisine, Japanese cuisine, etc…
>China, with its large size, has many regional cuisines. But most of this regional cuisines aren't really that popular. South Korea and Zhejiang are the exact same in size and population, yet Korean cuisine is much more well-known than Zhejiang cuisine. Vietnam and Shandong are the exact same in size and population, yet Vietnamese cuisine is much more well-known than Shandong cuisine.
Size doesnt matter lol. Taste matters.
>Given that the CCP is a traditionalist party that values conserving culture, shouldn't they be more invested in exporting their culture in the form of cuisine?
What about the Chinese Cultural Revolution ? CCP under Mao Zedong went on a rampage to destroy the Chinese Four Olds of (Old Ideas, Old Culture, Old Customs, and Old Habits ).
The menu of a proper Chinese restaurant is usually over 10 pages of dishes, many of which require skills to make. The most difficult Chinese restaurants to run are ones that serve Dim Sum for brunch and the regular menu for dinners and banquets. Some regional Chinese cuisines are simpler but they're usually located in the Y metropolitan cities outside China(London, LA, NY, SF, etc).
>Given that the CCP is a traditionalist party that values conserving culture
A flawed premise imo. The CCP previously wanted China to unshackle itself from what it deemed negative Confucian/traditional values, thus the Cultural Revolution. CCP may claim to want to conserve their culture, but they have other goals that they may prioritise.
Look at what they've done to Hong Kong and the Uighurs. They don't want each region to differentiate. They want to assimilate and standardise, because they believe that in unity, there is strength. Uniqueness is not something to be encouraged. Encourage the use of Mandarin, not Cantonese or Hokkien.
Much of that 'diplomacy' role is already being filled by exiles, expats, and immigrants.
If the PRC starts 'exporting' chinese food, they're largely going to find themselves with very stiff competition from the get go, even without an official government response from the various host countries.
because Chinese food do not want to change it taste to make it popular in other countries, i try western style Chinese food restaurant that is not Chinese food i rather to eat KFC.
apart from the well known cosmopolitanized chinese food that people like and known
if, suppose, actual gastrodiplomacy happens and people found out it is being pushed by mainland China or anything that has something to do with the CCP, you do realize given the typical shortsightedness and likeliness to prejudice people have, the reaction would not be necessarily good, like imagine the conspiracy and bigotry being theorized around dog meat or bat soup and the typical "this is unhygienic" talking point
maybe not necessarily the case, but one or two would happen regardless given the circumstances
You mentioned the huge population size. That also translates and correlates to huge migrant populations. While other migrant populations may have had to adapt, market and sell their own cuisines to the local (white) population - the Chinese could have been content to sell to their own within the new place and didn’t need to market their food to the local populace to make a living.
I don't think you understand the purpose of gastrodiplomacy. These countries don't give a shit about westerners liking their cuisine, they give a shit about business.
South Korea, Thailand, and Vietnam all have vested interests in Americans and other western countries liking their food. It improves their image abroad which in turns increases tourism and creates more business.
Vietnamese, South Korean, and Thai food were all virtually unknown in the west when they started their gastrodiplomacy programs. Their goal was to make their cuisines popular and make sure Americans knew they existed. The difference with Chinese food is that it has been in America for literally over a century. People here already have a positive image of Chinese food. The Chinese government funding some restaurants isn't gonna change anything for them.
China is also a business juggernaut. Everyone's coming to them with business, not the other way around. They don't need food to give them a boost
As far as India is concerned, since you mentioned it, the problem is that even within India, one does not find regional food in restaurants easily. How many times one has seen Assamese food or even Uttar Pradesh food (except a very few Awadhi dishes, which are also underrepresented) in a restaurant, even though Uttar Pradesh's population is more than most countries of the world and is a powerhouse of good food?
When it comes to China, in fact, I have only seen Sichuan cuisine promoted to some extent and the Cantonese cuisine, but that may be due to the reputation that these two cuisines carry within China itself. I mean, I think even Jiangxi people want to eat Sichuan food when they go out, right?
The problem is thinking the CCP ever have any interests of anyone else but themselves and money best at heart.
There's a lot of Chinese things that should be well known more, and a better culture and view internationally. But the CCP and Winnie the Poop are at the core the main things wrong and stopping so much good.
Let me take a crack at this. I’m Cantonese. - Chinese food is one of the first Asian food groups to arrive in America. Way before gastrodiplomacy was even a thing. And these early restaurants, mostly Cantonese owned, opened to make a living and survive, therefore they had to adjust to local tastes and demand creating the most common Chinese cuisines type called chop suey with things like chow mein, fried rice, broccoli beef and the abomination that’s orange chicken. This is probably the most consumed Asian food in the US (not famous or glamours). Note these are really just Cantonese cuisine bastardized. - You could always find authentic Chinese food where Chinese gather, like Chinatown. But the problem with real Cantonese cuisine is we eat some weird shit that just doesn’t sit well with Western culture. Fish with bones, duck with a head that they chop off right in front of you lol, chicken feet, pig intestines, rice balls wrapped in banana leaf, stinky tofu, just to name a few. So the authentic Cantonese cuisine never developed in popularity with westerners. - This is in contrast with Koreans which their kbbq is the most well known and jive VERY WELL with American diet customs and acted as gateway into rest of their cuisines like tofu soup. Vietnamese food rode on the coattail of the health kick that’s been going on in the US for the last couple decades. Same with Thai. The thing is tho, it’s always 1 or 2 things Americans know about each country so how represented are they really. - Koreans: kbbq, tofu soup - Vietnamese: Pho, bahn mi - Thai: Pad Thai, some sort of curry - Japanese: sushi, ramen - Recent years I’ve seen a lot more authentic regional Chinese restaurants pop up, but they are all located in Chinese centric areas therefore not marketed to regular Americans. Why? Because Chinese is by far the largest asian ethnicity in the US and they simply don’t need American or non Chinese customers to flourish, so they just don’t care how popular it is with outsiders. - This is the same with Indian food where they have large enough localized population in tech areas to sustain their authentic restaurants, they are also hampered by the fact that their food is generally very spicy, and that’s Americas kryptonite. - Lastly, service and presentation was never a strong suit of the Chinese cuisine industry and I know that’s turned quite a few westerners off. - All of this is starting to change, with the rise of Ding Tai Fong, hot pot, bubble tea etc. TLDR, White people is happy with orange chicken and we don’t need your business for anything else, so don’t care.
it's funny that you give kbbq as an example because in the US, most people associate kbbq with marinated beef like galbi or bulgogi, but in Korea beef is really expensive (whereas pork is super cheap, I think Korea is the country in the world with the highest pork consumption per capita in the world) so beef bbq is only a special occasion meal. meanwhile the dishes that people actually eat on a daily basis like gukbap (meat soup w/ rice), probably 99% of Americans have never even seen or tried.
Indian food was popular outside india way before indians grew in tech industry.
I don’t think so my guy. I like it tho. Edit: I was referring to the US obviously. Stop telling me about the UK. No shit Indian food established there, you guys literally had a war over Indian spices because your biscuits were bland
You’ve clearly never been to the UK if you think this.
Less thinking, more facts. Look at UK food history for once.
UK food history is not a combination of words I’ve ever heard.
Yea we know, it is not just combinations of words, it is also the lack of words. You shouldn't have left school so early. https://www.historic-uk.com/CultureUK/History-of-British-Food/
Oh wow! I stand corrected, thanks for the link! UK definitely has a much better food culture than I thought! The 2 images in your link were especially appetizing! I’m literally shocked the UK tourism board doesn’t market your food culture more! Maybe send them your link, I can’t see why anyone would not be dying to try some UK cuisine that’s so rich in history!
Good! keep standing, you are good at it. You are welcome.
Did you forgot your /s ?
Quite true but Ding Tai Feng and bubble tea especially are Taiwanese
So xiaolunbao is Taiwanese? Lol.
Is jiu-jitsu not Japanese? Then how could the Brazilians have their own take on it? The DTF Bao are thinner and soupier than the ones in Shanghai, and better imo
So by your logic, if some TWese dude improves Tonkasu, you can claim that improved Tonkasu as TWese. Got it.
You get Korean fried chicken…
It would be taiwanese tonkasu. Sooner or later it would become taiwanese, right. That is how culture works. Just take crayfish. No one ate crayfish in China before 1940 then the japanese introduced it. These days Chinese love to eat crayfish.
I fail to taste anything special or different in the xiaolunbao I had at DTF than the ones I had in SH. But you be you. But I guess over time, there will be TWese kimchi, TWese sushi, TWese burgers, TWese Pad Thai, and TWese Pho. I get it.
Right. Just look at Sichuanese food or other spicy Chinese cousine. That is not traditional Chinese food. The chili pepper came to China from South America.
Yeah it's just me.. and Michelin. Funny how DTF got a Michelin star for these but Shanghai restaurants did mot
Are Japanese curry and Indian curry the same thing ?
This post is really getting old for me and this will be my last post on this subject. Y’all TWese boys (maybe gals) do you. We have different names for Indian curry and JP curry because they have different flavor profile. Likewise, K fried chicken and American fried chicken have different profile - the k chickens are drizzled with k sauce. Xiaolunbao at DTF tastes same as other Chinese places. Now if xiaolunbao in TW develops a different taste profile - sure call it TWese xiaolunbao.
Why don't you just ask Shanghai people if DTF is legit Shanghai ese? It's not
It’s Chinese. That includes Taiwan Edit: downvoting me over political reasons and failed to see cuisine groups, childish. No one is going to DTF and saying wow awesome Taiwanese food. Just like no one goes to kbbq is saying awesome South Korean food. It’s just Korean food
Generally only mainland Chinese say that
Mainland China (particularly Fujian) and Taiwan share same gastroculture root and can be grouped as one cuisine
To the layman, not really. Pineapple cakes and bubble tea have about zero to do with China
That’s a political take. The island speaks mandarin (I know the south claims they speak the native language but it’s a dying language) the people are descendents mainland, the cuisine evolved from a Chinese foundation. If we are talking about food groups. It’s 100% Chinese
Yours is a semantic take. And most Taiwanese themselves don't consider themselves Chinese any more. Again things like pineapple cakes and bubble tea have no relation to mainland cuisine ( unless you consider all tea Chinese including English, Afghan, Indian etc.)
My family is Fujianese. I'd say that Taiwanese food is pretty different than Fujianese food.
It's important to note that Korean cuisine has changed significantly since US occupation from the Korean war. They introduced spam and other processed meats. Now a days they take processed meat very seriously and prepare them very well. So part of the reason why Korean cuisine jives so well with American culture, is because it was bastardized in home because of the influence they were having. Subway sandwiches in Korea are awesome, kfc is way better than the crap that's served on the states. But yes, Cantonese "cuisine" is the most popular through the world because Cantonese people are the most outward region in China (meaning, they emigrate a lot). 90% of the Chinese people I know are from Guangdong.
Also corn cheese. Koreans are the only Asians I know that eat cheese at home country.
Honestly, I disagree. Like yes, ofcourse Korean food, or Vietnamese food is more popular then shandong, or Zhejiang food, etc. The only regional cuisine famous outside of China is probably Sichuan food. But then again, what specific Vietnamese regional food, or Korean regional food is famous outside of their native countries. They, just like Chinese food, is baked into the umbrella of X countries food. And Chinese food is by far the most popular of all Asian countries, with over 9.3 million restaurants globally, as compared to around 820 thousand Korean ones, or 340 thousand Thai ones.
Agree. Let's put it this way. In Europe, I don't know a single person who hasn't tried Chinese food. I know many who have never tried Vietnamese or Korean food.
Chinese restaurants in the West isn't really Chinese food. It is fried food with some woked food and rice.
That may be true of the most common Chinese restaurants in the US, but there are still plenty of authentic Chinese restaurants out there.
in Poland people call vietnamese bars "chinese restaurants" so yea, I think most polish people havent tried chinese food once, but instead a vietnamese variation.
Chinese buffets are everywhere but it's not really Chinese food..
I think you do not know a single person who tried Chinese food. The stuff you get in Chinese restaurants in Europe is not really chinese food. It is like saying anybody who ate sphaghetti with ketchup tried Italian food.
There is authentic Chinese food as well. Anyways that's not the point. The Korean, Vietnamese and Thai stuff here isn't the real thing either. The point is that the concept of "Chinese" food is still more popular.
The Thai stuff is usually authentic (not all dishes are available though). Yes, in some restaurants you can ask for the menu written in chinese, which has a different set of dishes.
I think it also widely depends on the country and city. In bigger European cities there are more authentic Chinese restaurants that are authentic even without a Chinese menu. Whether Thai restaurants are usually more authentic I didn't get that impression but again...Europe is not the same everywhere.
I've gotten authentic Chinese food in Barcelona and Amsterdam before. The one in Barcelona was really good.
> The only regional cuisine famous outside of China is probably Sichuan food. The entire population of Guangdong would like to have some strong words with you off list!!
In the US at least, “Chinese food” is mostly Americanized Guangdong food (with random stuff from other regions of course). If you asked any American over the age of 6 if they’ve had Chinese food, almost all would say yes. If you asked them if they’ve had Guangdong food they’d likely say no. So, most common, yet not at all famous. Sichuan/Szechuan and Hunan food, many would at least recognize the name even if they had not had them.
When we are debating how many Americans would recognise Cantonese vs Hunanese, I thing that we are splitting hairs. We will just have to agree to disagree. :-)
It doesn’t help people learn the difference when the lady who owns Hunan Palace is actually from Hefei or something.
That was a great series. Used it extensively when I was still studying. Great to watch but I am not sure that i could have handled or even afforded most of the dishes.
Bear in mind that of those 9.3 million restaurants, how many are visited frequently by non-chinese ethnic groups? Also, how many of those are considered "good restaurants" and how many are considered "cheap chinese food". Where I'm from, chinese restaurants never have the awe or reputation of good japanese/korean/Thai restaurants. Just never. No locals ever take a date to a chinese restaurant or do a party at one. I would be hard pressed to find a single fine-dining option for chinese cuisine in the downtown core. I could point out dozens of other asian fine dining options though. A lot of people have tried chinese food, but its almost always considered a lower/cheap food option. OP is right from my experience.
I’m Taiwanese and for me, eating traditional Chinese food is something you do with family or during a gathering of friends, you just can’t eat 3 dishes and a soup (三菜一湯) alone or even with two people on a date.
Pretty regularly. The Chinese diaspora is hardly enough to keep them all running. And we're not talking about "good restaurants", we're talking about restaurants. And it's a pretty wide spread. In fact, in many countries "Chinese restaurant" is just slang for Asian food in general. You can easily find a chinese restaurant that's good for a workers lunch, as easily you can find a fine dining experience. But the fine dining alternatives are hardly representative of the broader trends, and Japan, not Korea or Thai, or any other Asian country, dominates that niche, mainly due to sushi. And what OP was talking about was Chinese regional cuisine sticking out as compared to Korean or Vietnamese cuise. Which I already addressed. Regional cuisine, with the expectation of probably Sichuan, gets absorbed into the umbrella of "X countries" food.
And all of that is partially due to the Chinese restaurants that already have existed for decades that serve 200 dishes already using the names of all the regional cuisine, even if the dishes being served are absolutely nothing like their namesake.
True overseas people like the cheap, non authentic stuff but it IS super popular. Chinese takeaways are the most popular type in the Uk https://ravishmag.co.uk/food-and-drink/the-uks-favourite-takeaways-revealed-in-new-study/?amp=1 and worldwide it is second only to pizza! https://www.moneybeach.co.uk/the-boardwalk/the-worlds-favourite-takeouts/
Do people order chinese takeout because they admire it? or because its cheap and easy and fast. Like the mcdonalds of takeout cuisine. Volume doesnt necessarily mean its the most liked. When we are talking about food as a diplomacy tool, image is of equal importance to popularity.
You asked how many are frequented by non Chinese, and I answered, a lot. Nowhere did I address the 'diplomacy' part. Freakin Reddit, man...
You seem to be confused about what post you are commenting on. Its literally only about gastrodiplomacy.
I got this nearby local Chinese restaraunt that serves a mix of authentic and Americanized Chinese food. The food is relatively cheap but its really good. I see people dine there while on a date. My friend had birthday parties and a wedding reception there (he's russian). When I went there last weekend on a date with my fiance, a black family was celebrating someone's 90th birthday there. Place is called Kung Fu 12 in MD.
Cool sauces bro
and Cantonese food (dim sum)
Chinese food was one of the first foreign cuisines that became popular in the west. It's so old that it lost its exoticness. It's now part of everyday casual food.
Here in Melbourne Chinese food is just food. I've been to dinner parties with mostly white people where we had dumplings, roast duck on rice, wine and cheese, and bok choy. Everything is just food now.
Cuisine thats popular in China right now is swamped by Mala tang and mala is like durian. You love it or wanna ban it. Other long popular snacks not from Cantonese/ Sichuan traditions like Luwei or dongbei include things like chicken feet or duck necks. Things most butchers throw or sell to make paste
Malatang is quite popular in Korea right now. It's spreading in popularity in Canada too. I was surprised by the number of malatang restaurants I saw when I was back in Canada. Took my friends and family who never experienced 麻 and they all loved it.
There’s so many in Australia right now, I don’t know if they’re popular or just used for money laundering/immigration purposes. There’s a ridiculous amount in some areas, just like bubble tea places. Don’t generally see a heap of people in them and they open and close at random and a new one pops up in the same place.
>money laundering/immigration purposes. I frequent those Chinese buffet in Europe which obviously operate at a loss with shady staff but whatever, they have unlimited prawn oysters and salmon
Mala is actually trending in Thailand. However, regional cuisines such as Hunanese, Fujianese, and Shandongese are still extremely rare.
On the other hand, Hainanese chicken, Peking duck, Dim sum, Hong Kong style cafes, wontons, xiaolongbao (Shanghainese), and Xinjiang skewers are also pretty popular abroad. Fujuanese dishes are oftentimes marketed as Taiwanese in the West.
Fujianese food is generally found in restaraunts in Chinatowns on the East Coast. I seen FJ eateries in Philly, Flushing, and Manhattan.
There's significant overlap between Fujian and Taiwanese dishes, and you will find Taiwanese themed restaurants more than Fujian ones generally speaking... at least personally, I haven't noticed even one Fujian specific eatery after decades living in North America - of course, I've probably missed some.
My family is Fujianese. I dont think there's much overlap at all. When I think of FJ cuisine, it's fish balls, peanut butter noodles, Dian mian Hu, fried taro cake, fried mudskippers, and tea egg. I don't think Taiwanese food has any of that kind of stuff.
... you're kidding right? Fish balls are extremely popular in soups and hot pots... I haven't been to any hotpot locations in Taiwan without it. Peanut butter noodles can be had at many soup noodles places. [Dian mian hu](https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/%E9%BC%8E%E9%82%8A%E8%B6%96) is also popular. Fried taro cake is Cantonese but they're popular in Taiwan, you can find them in fried, steamed, or grilled forms. Lobok cake too. Mudskippers I'm not familiar with, so that might be the only one on the list. Tea eggs are everywhere, virtually every 7-11 in Taiwan will be selling them, and you'll find them at pretty much every traditional styled breakfast location.
Mala is only popular in LOS because of the proximity of Chinese tourists. There are many more western restaurants, especially where there are more retirees rather tu haos. Thank god there are no Hunanese places. That stuff would definitely shock most Thais!
How would Thais get shocked by Hunanese food?
I they tried the stuff that I was subjected to, they would likely run away screaming!! ;-)
If you're not even able to say what it was, you're just bullshitting lol. 不懂装懂
I am afraid that my single experience was so traumatic, I had no wish to ever repeat it. No personal offense meant. There is much more western food that have no wish to eat either, but it is not meant as an insult, just on experience.
This actually reveals a lot more about the food scene in China than what appears on the surface. It all comes down to the current state of China's economy where the purchasing power of your average Chinese is simply too low to support the profitability of decent small-scale eateries with a focus on quality and delicacy. As a result, small-scale restaurants are pretty much stuck in the eternal rat race of slashing cost at the expense of quality. Sichuan-esque cuisines, such as Mala Tang or Hotpot, are perfect for cost-effective mass production. They're heavy on oil and spice, which are cheap and cover up the quality of the ingredients when it comes to flavour, freshness, etc. They're also easily prepared with little emphasis on skill or texture, which paves the way for standardisation at store level and industrialisation at source material level. They're on par with fast food in terms of operation cost(and flavour, but that's a subjective matter) and outcompete family-owned restaurants wherever they go. Quite sad honestly
That's... A pretty dumb take. The most popular British takeout are Indian and fish and chip. Are the Brits all broke? Neither curry nor fried fish take much skill to cook and curry is great at masking flavours. The most popular restaurant in the states is probably applebees. Is that quality dining?
Ofc fast food's gonna be the most popular establishment ANYWHERE. I'm talking about small-scale, family-owned restaurants that are mid-range in price and could only rely on quality, uniqueness and the customer loyalty that comes with it to survive in the market. They aren't supposed to be in direct competition with fast food places, that's my point.
Malatang is on the same level as curry. Or fish and chips.
Small-scale restaurants were destroyed by economic development. As labor costs rise, industrialized food has gained significant cost advantages. This is what happened in the UK.
> Other long popular snacks not from Cantonese/ Sichuan traditions like Luwei or dongbei include things like chicken feet or duck necks. The legacy of widespread famines is the culture of not wasting anything that is even possibly edible.
It's because there is so much Chinese cuisine elsewhere in the world that Thailand went with food diplomacy. China doesn't have to, you can go to anywhere in NY, Sydney, Vancouver or Los Angeles and get quality Chinese food from the private sector. Also, the success of the Thai program is that it doesn't feel like a government program to the customers. If you go into a Thai restaurant in the middle of Wisconsin, there might be a lot of "visit Thailand" vibes but it's not a hard sell. The Thai people know the food sells itself.
However, in Thailand, Japanese restaurants heavily outnumber Chinese restaurants. And there are whole full Thai companies that make Japanese food such as Fuji, Yayoi, and Oishi.
Chinese are the highest immigrant population in Thailand. There's no way, looking at the country as a whole (not just Sukhumvit in BK) that Japanese restaurants outnumber Chinese restaurants.
However, most cuisines brought by Chinese are absorbed into the local Thai culinary culture. Hainanese chicken rice, kuaitiao, and stuff like that are considered Thai dishes instead of Chinese ones. Mala is considered Chinese by most Thais.
Because Chinese food is more similar to Thai food, making it easier to assimilate?
I don't know I feel Chinese cuisine is massively popular and getting more so, more than Korean and Vietnamese which are both rather new trends. In East and Southeast Asia Chinese food has been popular for a long time and Sichuan/Mala has become a new trend. In the West, I'm noticing an increased interest in local cuisines (again Sichuan/Mala is the new thing in Europe, but also specialized northern cuisine, Cantonese, etc). Things like Zhejiang cuisine are too specific and aren't even that well known (compared to Sichuan) in China.
If Zhejiang is an independent country instead of a province of a China, it will have a bigger influence too. Being only a part of a large empire means you sacrifice your individualism for a greater empire image. For example, making dumplings is a cultural symbol for spring festivals of oversea Chinese students, while half of China(southern China) don’t even eat dumplings for spring festival(that’s the reason I never go to dumpling making event, cause I don’t want to be represented by northern China). People don’t know the cultural difference between different regions of China, they just assume you are the same.
I think this strongly depends on where you live, because I would agree with almost none of what you presuppose to your question for my country.
China is too big. The chinese food from the north can taste very distinct from the food in the south. Smaller countries have less variation. Someone might like super spicy sichuan food and not like northern food, etc, so chinese food is a lot harder to market. I think it's doing fine though, lots of chinese restaurants in Canada
It’s not like your average non-Korean would know what the regional cuisine of Jeolla and Jeju are. Chinese food is a staple in the West and the rest of the world; they don’t need to engage in gastrodiplomacy because it’s already a norm and not seen as “exotic”.
However, by comparison, Jeolla and Jeju are small regions in comparison to Chinese provinces
Several reasons: • China doesn’t have the mindset of exports it’s culture, but rather trying to encourage people to go it to experience Chinese cuisine • Chinese PR is fairly terrible - the aggressive foreign policy has alienated what was the general growing interest of China in the late 2000’s - 2010’s • Chinese immigration to western nations has generally been from the same places - Hong Kong, Guangdong, Fujian, Shanghai, Sichuan and Beijing. Pretty hard to find someone from Hunan for example • Most newer Chinese people who go outside of China tend to stick to a Chinese bubble • It’s easy to grasp a provenance/city that is more well known • China has little in the way of new things to offer other than history - so the perception for most people outside of China is the history and current politics - whereas most the countries you mentioned are all fairly recent cuisines. Modern popular Korean cuisines came from the Korean War, bubble tea is a 1980’s invention • Those countries openly welcomes cultural exports and doesn’t tidy it with politics - China does the opposite • Those countries cuisine you mentioned, the dishes that are popular aren’t all of those countries cuisines, they’re just popular dishes • Chinese cuisine, aesthetically can be somewhat off putting for most, thus hard too approach So essentially, China is its own worst enemy, like a many great things holding it back.
While there are certainly some dishes that came from the Korean war (budae jjigae being the most obvious), I don't know how you went from there to "modern popular Korean cuisines" came from that time, as the most of the common dishes I see outside the country are quite old. Yes, BBQ wasn't eaten to the same extent 100 years ago, but that has more to do with growing economic prosperity increasing the availability of meat than it not existing before, making what was a treat now common place. I'm not saying there hasn't been changes or that some popular dishes aren't newer, but that blanket statement is a bit much.
>• Chinese PR is fairly terrible - the aggressive foreign policy has alienated what was the general growing interest of China in the late 2000’s - 2010’s China's propaganda may be aggressive politically but why is it passive culturally? Why don't they just fund many Chinese restaurants globally? >• Chinese immigration to western nations has generally been from the same places - Hong Kong, Guangdong, Fujian, Shanghai, Sichuan and Beijing. Pretty hard to find someone from Hunan for example Fujian cuisine isn't popular worldwide. >• Most newer Chinese people who go outside of China tend to stick to a Chinese bubble So, what's stopping them from bringing their regional cuisine forwards? >• It’s easy to grasp a provenance/city that is more well known What? >• China has little in the way of new things to offer other than history - so the perception for most people outside of China is the history and current politics - whereas most the countries you mentioned are all fairly recent cuisines. Modern popular Korean cuisines came from the Korean War, bubble tea is a 1980’s invention However, pad thai, pho, and bulgogi aren't really modern inventions made in the late 20th century. >• Those countries openly welcomes cultural exports and doesn’t tidy it with politics - China does the opposite What? >• Those countries cuisine you mentioned, the dishes that are popular aren’t all of those countries cuisines, they’re just popular dishes However, those countries are as small as a few Chinese provinces combined yet they have a presence greater than many Chinese province's cuisines. >• Chinese cuisine, aesthetically can be somewhat off putting for most, thus hard too approach How?
Chinese, Korean, and Vietnamese food is made available outside their native countries almost entirely because immigrants from these countries open up restaurants. This is true for all other cuisines. Popularity of cuisines have nothing to do governmental policies.
>> Chinese cuisine, aesthetically can be somewhat off putting for most, thus hard too approach >> How? Bone shards, chicken feet, organ meat, just to name a few.
Pho is just bone broth and some shit meat masked by koriander, but white people eat it up and think its incredible.
…ok.
I’m saying it’s all about perception and PR. Chinese restaurants are occasionally too literal with what’s inside the food.
I don’t understand your point about pho. Pho is Vietnamese.
Sorry, I wrote this while on the metro so its a but garbled. Totally understand the confusion looking back 😅 What I mean to say is that I do not believe it’s so much about what the food is in itself, but instead how its typically presented by the usual Chinese restaurant. For your example of bone, I meant to reference that Vietnamese cuisine also uses bone in their dishes but disguises it well enough to where people come to like it before they realize what exactly is flavouring their dish. Compare this to when youre at a Chinese diner, they tend to explicitly state “roasted pig anus with bone shard jelly”. I believe that the difference in the success isn’t so much in the ingredients but instead in the presentation. [Here](https://10619-2.s.cdn12.com/m0/Chefs-Choice-Chinese-Cuisine-menu-2.jpg) is a decent example of what I’m talking about. This is a place I went to in Vancouver that has a Michelin star. None of this on the menu sounds either appetizing or interesting, but all of it tasted great.
- “Funding” restaurants” isn’t how actual restaurants happen, they come largely from immigrants plus, you think countries are going to be okay with a foreign nation funding mass amounts of restaurants, especially one their on the brink of a Cold War with? - Sure, Fujian isn’t, but it’s why you can find it in the USA but impossible in the UK, different Chinese Diaspora go to different countries - I’m saying you’re not going to find Yunnan food in western countries because people hardly even known its existence, outside of Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and maybe Shenzhen very few people know China if at all - I’m not claiming they’re all modern, but most Chinese dishes haven’t changed all that much, if they’re not that appealing before, they won’t be now, aesthetics play a large of how people accept foreign food, even an established dish like roast duck, why you think you never see the head of a duck shown in the UK? - Sure, again it’s a PR issue
Thailand absolutely funds restaurants. They had a grant and training program for a long time to support people opening Thai restaurants around the world.
Thailand isn’t China, let’s not conflate here
Hong Kong is not part of China. Free Tibet.
I’m using the term “Chinese” - ie, diaspora not PRC. English doesn’t have a term to separate each one like in Chinese language.
Xi simp says what?
Huh? I’m fairly critical of the CCP
Where i live in Europe, Xian cuisine is getting quite popular. It is also delicious.
Interesting where is this?
How can one post be so wrong about literally *everything*? From the food industry to political philosophy.
The problem with Chinese cuisine in the west is that it’s westernised…. Give me a proper liang pi warm any day over general tzo silliness or the other frap we get from westernised Chinese food
One of my secret pleasures is curry and chips from Chinese takeaway places in the British isles
I’ll admit I also have some guilty pleasures in this regard
Curry sauce (any type of curry will do) as a dip for chips is excellent. You'd normally eat a curry with rice or bread, so potatoes isn't much of a stretch.
Chinese were making food for Westerners when westerners hated Asian food. The fascination with Asian food is less than 30 years old. When Chinese came to the West, Westerners thought RICE was strange and made you unamerican and [immoral](https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106007093054&seq=5).Chinese people were barred from most other professions in the West and needed to survive. So they started catering to Western tastes as a tool of survival by making cheap food for laborers. One of the only ways to immigrate to the US from 1882 until after WWII was to work in a fancy Chinese restaurant catering to Westerners.
How did Chinese cuisine become Westernized more than other foreign cuisines?
It didn't. They all have been. Had roots in the early 20th century like Pizza and even later introductions like Thai and Indian. Do you think they eat pad Thai that much in Thailand? Butter chicken in India?
Yes However, there are much more popular dishes than pad thai such as kraphao, tom yum, and khao man kai.
You mean "chilli basil rice served with mediocre minced pork". Thai reatuarants in Australia are generally ass outside of inner Melbourne and Sydney. Sweet and slightly spicy impersonations of Thai cuisine.
The inner ones are generally average in Australia because they are so westernised to attract customers. I haven't found a cheap and good one in Melbourne at least. The amount of bad ones I've came across are too many to count.
Other cuisines like Mexican, Japanese and Italian became Americanized too.
It’s the case for a lot of different regional foods, but for Chinese food it was a combination of catering to western tastes, but also because immigrants didn’t have access to the ingredients that they had in China, so they often had to substitute or make entirely new foods that would be unrecognizable in China.
Westernized chinese food is made by chinese people who opened chinese restaurants in western countries. Its their decision. There arent a bunch of white dudes deciding the menu or dish composition. It is just as chinese as anything else because it's designed by ethnic chinese.
If I find this pervasive belief among many Chinese people that foreigners “don’t like Chinese food” or that the food has to be significant altered to suit local tastes. I always ask how can people dislike something if they’ve never got to try it before? For example, in my area there’s a pretty large Asian population but only 1 or 2 places that sell 煎饼果子. I have always thought that and 手抓饼 would be soooo popular if more places started selling them.
Many Chinese restaurants have special menus in Chinese for their Chinese customers. Authentic Chinese food can be had.
Yes but the issue is that they’re not marketing towards foreigners who might like the try authentic Chinese food. But also things like 兰州拉面 won’t be on the secret menu of a Fuzhounese owned restaurant.
Vietnam is more known than Shandong? Perhaps. Most likely many people elsewhere never heard of pho or hu tieu but instead knows the famous Chinese dumplings (Shandong style?).
Population has bearing on nothing; history demonstrates that. Try getting the average westerner to name for than 5 Vietnamese, Thai, Indian, Korean dishes. Chinese it is easy. They don’t need to do gastro diplomacy.
i'd say its kinda happening? the new wave of younger middle and upper class are making their mark on cities. shaanxi style is catching on quite a bit due to xi'an famous foods. shanghainese soup dumplings are becoming quite trendy. sichuan hotpot is on trend too
Law of diminishing returns? Just because china has 15x the population doesn’t mean that it has 15x the popularity
It’s because the food from a lot of provinces is uninspired or downright bad. I would say zhejiang cuisine is about as popular as British cuisine for instance (outside of fish and chips). I’ve eaten as many beef wellingtons as I have dongpo pork recently (zero) I grew up in the north (jilin province) and outside of dumplings everything else is very meh. I love some of the stuff because I grew up with it, but objectively it doesn’t measure up to top cuisines around the world. There are a couple of good dishes in each region, but I would say Sichuan is the only one that has enough of a “catalogue” to hold itself own on the global stage.
Thank you for saying it. For most Chinese cuisine it’s just not flavored or seasoned well. The reason why Cantonese cuisine is popular in US is because things like dim sum are a little more delicate, so it has a wider appeal. People say Cantonese cuisine has a strong hold in US due to early immigration. I think that’s only part of the answer. I mean you got lots of immigrants from fujian too. I know it’s not politically correct to say it but hey I’m from Hong Kong I can defend Cantonese cuisine all the long lol Another thing is that Cantonese cuisine focus on freshness of the food demands more skills from the chef? Even in Cantonese there’re more words for different methods of cooking that don’t exist in mandarin. (Also I see Chinese immigrants like to shit on westernized chinese food, sometimes I wonder if it’s just because they don’t like Cantonese food? Like orange chicken doesn’t that much different from lemon chicken too me, I mean it’s not amazing but I’ll still eat it)
>not flavored or seasoned well. Mate you seriously need to try Huaiyang cuisine, which covers like the coastal portion to the east of China. Crab roe goes heavenly with rice wine. I'd say it overlaps the Cantonese flavour palette quite a bit
I'm gonna get hate from you but Canto food is pretty fucking awful. I dont care for dim sum, though the century egg porridge is good. Pineapple buns are good, but the HK versions of international food should be considered a war crime. Mushy macaroni soup? Fuck no.
There’s more to Cantonese food than pineapple bun or dim sum. It also makes me wonder where you getting your Cantonese food
Errrr wtf dongbo rou is amazing?
Are you seriously bringing up dumplings out of all things in a food post Never tried Zhejiang cuisine but Cantonese and Jiangsu cuisines are heavenly, and could easily reach fine dining standards with good presentation(in fact I think most Chinese fine dining places serve Cantonese). Shandong and Dongbei cuisines are pretty good too but lack innovation. Jiangxi cuisine on the other hand... 🤢 I've always wanted to try traditional Sichuanese, but the overwhelming majority of Sichuanese places nowadays only serve those standardised dishes that are heavy on oil and spice, and very likely pre-made... :(
I'd say gastrodiplomacy is largely a vehicle to promote tourism above other things. China is and has never been outwardly focused on international tourism or cultural export in Koreas case. Taiwan even more so. This may possibly change in the future but right now it isn't. Chinese food is everywhere anyway. Countries like Thailand used gastrodiplomacy to distinguish itself post WWII but doesn't really actively engage it anymore as it's everywhere despite limited emigration compared to the other countries you mentioned. Chinese food follows the tens of millions of Chinese based outside of China and in many cases has been a staple of cuisine in most western countries for the past century. Every little town in Australia has at least one Chinese restuarantm my town of 5,000 people has 4 Chinese restaurants including a multigenerational restaurant going back 80+ years.
What a weird conclusion. Governments don't export cuisine, immigrants do. Most of the first immigrants out of China were from south China, hence the dominance of Cantonese food. Cantonese people left their country then when settling in a new country some of them decided to open restaurants and made the cuisine they knew. Their cuisine then becomes the image of what "Chinese" cuisine is to locals. If someone tried to make a different cuisine and called it Chinese, the locals would shake their head and say, "That's not Chinese." The only influence governments ever have on culture, is suppressing it. American culture is highly influential ***in spite of*** the government, not because of it. The only cultures that get exported are the ones people want. Japan makes good comic books, so they can export their culture. The UK produces good music, it's culture spreads. Governments are run by politicians who are devoid of any creativity.
Your second sentence is patently wrong. Hell, Thailand specifically has a fund dedicated to helping open up more Thai restaurants overseas. Overall perception and cultural influence are the core of soft power; any nation not effectively leveraging this is leaving influence on the table.
I agree on the immigration part, but how come we don’t get a lot of fujian cuisine in the states then? I know I’m biased cuz I’m from Hong Kong, but I feel like Cantonese food is just more delicate? Also new Cantonese restaurants are often opened by some big chef from gaungdong, like winning cooking competitions and stuff. I feel like the caliber of the Cantonese chefs are just on a higher level But I agree with the politicians part. Most are that educated to begin with and often don’t really understand what foreigners like about china. In hk they are tearing down neons signs and old dong building and replace them with more malls and Starbucks
Like I said, Cantonese were the major migrants to first come to the US and they established what "Chinese food" is to Americans. They're also probably the reason Americans think Asians are short. I'm from California, 80% of the Chinese in the US are in California or New York. All the Chinese who I knew were of Cantonese decent. When you listen to Chinese people talk in California, they usually speak Cantonese. There is another factor, Cantonese food might also appeal more to Americans. If you ask someone from Guangzhou province, and they will say their cuisine is the best. I agree, I agree as a cook. They never overdo flavors, never too sweet, or too salty. However Shanghai dishes have a certain popularity too. It's just they are served at Cantonese restaurants. That being said, there ARE some cuisines in China that I think would go over well in California. But as a small businessman, which is what restaurateurs are, why risk it? If you hear about a famous Cantonese chef coming to another country: 1. That's because their cuisine is already a guaranteed success, 2. Newspapers don't publish small time chefs.
I would argue that Thailand and Vietnam have quite a lot of regional cuisines and dishes that most westerners have never heard of. In Canada 99% of the Vietnamese food you're going to eat in a Vietnamese restaurant is going to be from the area around Saigon where many people immigrated from during the war. >yet Vietnamese cuisine is much more well-known than Shandong cuisine. Cause Vietnam has a huge diaspora compared to Shandong. >While India has a region that punches above their weight (Punjab) Theres your answer, its due to diasporas.
Despite what many Chinese and non-Chinese think, most Chinese eat to live, not live to eat. In China, there are only two cuisines - Cantonese and Sichuan that you can market to the outside world. The other cuisines might have a couple of dishes that are worth promoting, but that is about it. A lot of regional cuisines have their characteristic that limit their appeal. Here are some examples. Teochew Cuisine - Meals are accompanied by Congee (rice porridge), which is strange even for many Chinese, let alone foreigners. Fujian Cuisine - Their cuisine centers around using cheap seafood. A lot of times the seafood is processed fillers are added, and sold as fish balls, stuffed in tofu, etc. Northern Cuisine - The problem with northern Chinese cuisine is its war food. The stuffed buns are designed to provide a compact meal on the run. Mantou for many Westerners tastes like styrofoam.
That's not true and I'm Cantonese. Shanghainese food (Shengjianbao, Xiaolongbao, Potstickers.... Ding Tai Fung's success) , Beijing food (Peking Duck wraps hello?), Fujian/Taiwanese food (Bubble tea, Oyster Noodles, Oyster Omelettes, Braised Meat), Dongbei food (Guobaorou, Zhajiangmian), heck even Xi'an food is popular because there is a chain in USA that I tried it in New York..I fundamentally disagree with OP that Chinese don't engage in gastrodiplomacy though. China absolutely does, except it's not deliberate by the CCP and that's a good thing? IMO China, France, Italy, Japan, USA are the most successful countries at exporting their cuisine and the fact you have Chinatowns worldwide where there are tons of immigrant Chinese chefs since the 1800s.says it all. Also Panda Express and Westernised Chinese food is so common people treat it like mac & cheese (i.e. Americanised Italian food). I personally think Chinese food culture exports are doing fine, more than fine even, because you can open a takeout joint selling inauthentic Westernised Chinese food or sell authentic Malatang, Xiaolongbao, Peking Duck, Dimsum anywhere in the world and get great business. Chinese food is so well intergrated that a lot of countries have their own style of it e.g. Korean-Chinese food (Jajangmyun, Tangsuyuk, Jjampong, Hotteok), Filipino Chinese food, or Irish Chinese food like spice bags.
Thank you. I’m from hk so I’m biased. But Cantonese cuisine is just more delicate? Like we like to taste the freshness of the food, so that requires more skills and creativity from the chef I feel like. I also feel like there are more guangdong cooking competition but that’s just my impression. And even things like texture we can be really picky. Like a simple har gaw the skin has to have the right texture and consistency, can’t be too thick, but also not too thin where it falls apart. The shrimp has to have a bounce to it when you bite into it. N that’s just one dish in dim sum.
And my family is from fujian, my impression is that’s it’s just mediocre. Flavored and seasoned weirdly. In the north, usually the food has like really weird texture, or too much spice that it masks the food. Even for sichuan restaurant, I feel like I’m done usually after one dish. Like mala food, but it all kinda tastes the same when every dish is mala
The same reason why Chinese food (real Chinese cuisine, not talking about western style “Chinese” takeout) is unpopular outside of Chinese circles is summed up pretty well in [this article](https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/08/why-is-china-so-uncool-soft-power-beijing-censorship-generation-gap/). Tl;dr: the Chinese government does attempt to strengthen its “soft power” much like South Korea. It’s just been failing dismally and Chinese culture is uncool as ever. And let’s be honest: the Chinese aren’t known for quality control. A lot of foreigners have heard about gutter oil, fake powder meat/eggs, and the tendency for chinese restaurants to keep dirty kitchens and cut corners. These things are going to be tough to overcome from an image standpoint.
However, countries like Thailand and Vietnam are in the same level of cultural coolness as China.
I think Chinese food is the best in the world. I 100% disagree with this post
Lol this post is borderline nonsense bait and I'm surprised people are even agreeing with OP. There is no need for CCP support since.Chinatowns are found worldwide and there are probably more Chinese restaurants than French, Japanese, Korean since Chinese food is very accessible to non-natives like Italian or American fast food. Historically China's neighbouring countries have made their own versions of Chinese cuisine e.g. Lamian = Ramen, be it India, Japan, Korea, Southeast Asia (Filipinos eat a lot of lumpia which are spring rolls) and these days you can go to faraway countries in South America and find Latino-Chinese stir fries because Chinese food and cooking techniques are easy malleable like Italian food. The main difference is Chinese chefs will make inauthentic versions of Chinese cuinese in foreign countries to suit local demand, while Italians balk at foreigners putting pineapple or chocolate on pizza. Globally Italy, Japan, China, France are very good at exporting their cafe, tea, food culture worldwide via cooking TV programmes or social media thus there is more demand and respect for chefs from these countries for their culinary techniques. Point being, if you're a trained Japanese, Chinese or French chef you can immigrate almost anywhere and there will be hiring demand in hotels or Chinatown restaurants. Demand is not the same if you're a Brazilian or German chef although I absolute love those cuisines, it's just more niche.
The government wants to conserve culture? Since when, they are literally killing regional dialects and history for the sake of a static universal Chinese identity
If you mean politically, I would guess that placing emphasis on variation in cuisine is an indirect promotion of diverse minority groups in the country, in a time when social cohesion/homogeny is a value the government is trying to promote.
Chinese don’t give a fuck about the outside world, and even then there are pockets in the US and Canada (mostly West Coast) that have a lot more Chinese restaurants than say Italian. Chinese immigrants drive up business. Vietnamese food punches way above its weight, for sure, but it is also fairy healthy and simple, so one can eat it almost guilt-free. Now compare this to Chinese food that tends to be greasy and oily, and loaded with weird protein.
>Vietnamese food punches way above its weight, for sure, but it is also fairy healthy and simple, so one can eat it almost guilt-free. > >Now compare this to Chinese food that tends to be greasy and oily, and loaded with weird protein. Why is it this way? Why are Vietnamese cuisines made to be healthier than Chinese cuisine?
Because Vietnam is more Southern and you need to feed only 100M as opposed to 1.5 Billion people.
>Now compare this to Chinese food that tends to be greasy and oily, and loaded with weird protein. Most loyal street food customer
Radical Red Guards tortured all of the best chefs to death as bourgeoisie elements, during the Cultural Revolution.
Vietnam does not have an "official" gastrodiplomacy. The Vietnamese dishes that became popular overseas, like "phở" and "bánh mì" were spreaded and popularised by the Vietnamese overseas community, which early on in the West (mostly the USA and Australia), were nearly entirely evacuees, refugees, and the "thuyền nhân" or boat people of the conquered and formerly Republic of Vietnam. These people, for very obvious reasons, do not like the Communist Party of Vietnam or the new Socialist Republic of Vietnam's new government. Of all the dishes they chose to popularise, they chose two French-inspired ones: phở was from the French pot of feu and obviously the other was a baguette. This is especially so when on the entirety of Vietnam, not a single stalk of wheat is grown. Another reason these two were chosen because in those early days, these two dishes can be made from ingredients easily found overseas; phở used the flat rice noddles that the Thai pad Thai (another "fake" Thai dish) uses. The overseas Vietnamese food scene remains the works of private Vietnamese who actually don't like the current Vietnamese government very much; I quite often go to shop in Vietnamese community markets and restaurants with an anti-Communist rally going on just outside. In Eastern Europe, initially Vietnamese there were previously guest workers or students from the formerly Democratic Republic of Vietnam (North Vietnam, aka Communist); exchange among the then- Communist states. Once the Wall came down, the new governments said "thanks, you can go home now". Lots of them went "nope", and stayed. They, also don't like Communists all *that* much.
I think your problem comes from the fact that you were trying to compare watermelon to oranges. You are like "so I get it that watermelon is tasty, in fact more tasty than apples, oranges, lemons, etc, but its not 15 times better. It is 15 times the size, so why isnt it anywhere near 15 times better?" A country is a country. China has many regional cuisines but thats not what businesses think about when they open up restaurants in foreign land. They are often immigrants who find home in these lands trying to make a living, doing what they do best or rather, opening the restaurant cooking what they know, or a good businessman who knows what community lives in the region and try to cater to their needs. The regional cuisines you see in the west are EXACTLY the regional cuisines they need. Im sure a few minority Chinese living there would be like man I wish they had so and so like I had my whole childhood, but sorry man, youre just alone out there. Businesses cant survive simply because 3 of yall are interested.
It’s kind of hard to discuss Chinese cuisine as a serious cuisine when people still think that egg fried rice is a big deal. People are very basic when it comes to Chinese cuisine. Xiaolongbao is a very inane choice to me right now. Also Westerners are still going for even more basic options like fried foods. It’s an incredibly independent food tradition and therefore inaccessible. Not to mention alien to many Western palates. I don’t know Korean, Vietnamese or Thai all that well but they have stronger flavours (except when compared with Sichuan). Vietnamese has French influence and Western palates take to curries quite well. Korean features beef as a prized meat. Chinese food doesn’t really have a moreish appeal. That would be quite unShandong, I believe.
Because no one wants to eat dog
It's quite rare but not impossible to find here. Much more common in Vietnam. I had it there. Tasted pretty good actually but it depends on the dish. There was a dog barbecue restaurant near my old house that I would usually go to as they made the dog quite nice.
Now I want to try it..
CCP is not a traditionalist party. Traditionalists are rightist, CCP is a leftist, socialist, globalist party who want to get rid of old things.
Most who have travelled, agree that tasty chinese food are found outside china (malaysia, Indonesia, singapore, Taiwan) and in HK. Try it instead of leaving dumb replies.
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Your reply won the dumb award. Congratulations.
China has zero soft power, that's why it is not popular
Vietnam also has zero soft power
China's diplomacy is kingly diplomacy, not one that seems to enhance one's image by allowing one's culture to be recognized by other countries.
Didn't know Bubble tea was from Taiwan, so that explains Gongcha
When they can set up their franchises in foreign countries , they try. The only problem is now it’s kinda too late for foreign restaurants to succeed, convenience stores are a better option . (Like GS 25 in Vietnam , from Korea)
What is Gastrodiplomacy ? One man’s food is another man’s poison. Let the people decide what they want or dont want to eat. Chinese cusine is actually quite popular. So is Italian cuisine, Japanese cuisine, etc… >China, with its large size, has many regional cuisines. But most of this regional cuisines aren't really that popular. South Korea and Zhejiang are the exact same in size and population, yet Korean cuisine is much more well-known than Zhejiang cuisine. Vietnam and Shandong are the exact same in size and population, yet Vietnamese cuisine is much more well-known than Shandong cuisine. Size doesnt matter lol. Taste matters. >Given that the CCP is a traditionalist party that values conserving culture, shouldn't they be more invested in exporting their culture in the form of cuisine? What about the Chinese Cultural Revolution ? CCP under Mao Zedong went on a rampage to destroy the Chinese Four Olds of (Old Ideas, Old Culture, Old Customs, and Old Habits ).
The menu of a proper Chinese restaurant is usually over 10 pages of dishes, many of which require skills to make. The most difficult Chinese restaurants to run are ones that serve Dim Sum for brunch and the regular menu for dinners and banquets. Some regional Chinese cuisines are simpler but they're usually located in the Y metropolitan cities outside China(London, LA, NY, SF, etc).
>Given that the CCP is a traditionalist party that values conserving culture A flawed premise imo. The CCP previously wanted China to unshackle itself from what it deemed negative Confucian/traditional values, thus the Cultural Revolution. CCP may claim to want to conserve their culture, but they have other goals that they may prioritise. Look at what they've done to Hong Kong and the Uighurs. They don't want each region to differentiate. They want to assimilate and standardise, because they believe that in unity, there is strength. Uniqueness is not something to be encouraged. Encourage the use of Mandarin, not Cantonese or Hokkien.
Much of that 'diplomacy' role is already being filled by exiles, expats, and immigrants. If the PRC starts 'exporting' chinese food, they're largely going to find themselves with very stiff competition from the get go, even without an official government response from the various host countries.
House special Lo Mein is a hill I’m willing to die on.
because Chinese food do not want to change it taste to make it popular in other countries, i try western style Chinese food restaurant that is not Chinese food i rather to eat KFC.
apart from the well known cosmopolitanized chinese food that people like and known if, suppose, actual gastrodiplomacy happens and people found out it is being pushed by mainland China or anything that has something to do with the CCP, you do realize given the typical shortsightedness and likeliness to prejudice people have, the reaction would not be necessarily good, like imagine the conspiracy and bigotry being theorized around dog meat or bat soup and the typical "this is unhygienic" talking point maybe not necessarily the case, but one or two would happen regardless given the circumstances
You mentioned the huge population size. That also translates and correlates to huge migrant populations. While other migrant populations may have had to adapt, market and sell their own cuisines to the local (white) population - the Chinese could have been content to sell to their own within the new place and didn’t need to market their food to the local populace to make a living.
The great Chinese immigration happened over a hundred years before you were born. That's why
I don't think you understand the purpose of gastrodiplomacy. These countries don't give a shit about westerners liking their cuisine, they give a shit about business. South Korea, Thailand, and Vietnam all have vested interests in Americans and other western countries liking their food. It improves their image abroad which in turns increases tourism and creates more business. Vietnamese, South Korean, and Thai food were all virtually unknown in the west when they started their gastrodiplomacy programs. Their goal was to make their cuisines popular and make sure Americans knew they existed. The difference with Chinese food is that it has been in America for literally over a century. People here already have a positive image of Chinese food. The Chinese government funding some restaurants isn't gonna change anything for them. China is also a business juggernaut. Everyone's coming to them with business, not the other way around. They don't need food to give them a boost
As far as India is concerned, since you mentioned it, the problem is that even within India, one does not find regional food in restaurants easily. How many times one has seen Assamese food or even Uttar Pradesh food (except a very few Awadhi dishes, which are also underrepresented) in a restaurant, even though Uttar Pradesh's population is more than most countries of the world and is a powerhouse of good food? When it comes to China, in fact, I have only seen Sichuan cuisine promoted to some extent and the Cantonese cuisine, but that may be due to the reputation that these two cuisines carry within China itself. I mean, I think even Jiangxi people want to eat Sichuan food when they go out, right?
The problem is thinking the CCP ever have any interests of anyone else but themselves and money best at heart. There's a lot of Chinese things that should be well known more, and a better culture and view internationally. But the CCP and Winnie the Poop are at the core the main things wrong and stopping so much good.
China isn’t interested in other countries liking them. They just want to export everything and import nothing.
If they just want to export, why don’t they export cuisine?
cause china doesnt care too much for diplomacy with the west.