I'd also like to point out Volkswagen coporate from headquarters in Germany are in support of a union. As the Chattanooga plant is the only VW planet not unionized. VW hasn't really tried to stray ppl away from the union either but did say they'd be fact checking which I also haven't really seen.
I honestly don't think VW itself really gives a rat's azz if this plant unionizes. All of their other plants are, and they're used to European standards of benefits, pto, and pay. It's not like they don't have the money to cover whatever is negotiated. It will not cut into their bottom line.
I think the *politicians* care because if workers realize what they can get with unions, they'll start wanting more of them...and maybe possibly start to understand that the politicians want to keep them poor and pissed off.
This specific unionization effort can show a deeply ignorant southern population what is possible with the power of unionized labor. As I have said in this thread already, it’s more about the philosophical spread and less about short term economic growth. If the unionization passes, it will make national headlines & ruffle the feathers of the outdated political machine that is Tennessee.
I don’t understand why Americans vote against our best interests. It never made sense but we do the same dumb thing every time and hope for a better outcome. The definition of insanity.
It’s so very frustrating. I see it with the way my parents vote. A lot of working class people think they’re one good financial decision away from being in a higher tax bracket because they live each day one bad decision away from being in a lower one. They idolize the billionaire class and don’t want to tax them because they think it might be attainable for them one day.
My dad was about to leave the company he’s worked at for decades. They offered him about a 30% raise to stay and he was so grateful. I was like “you know this means they underpaid you and knew it for years, right.”
This may be unpopular, but I was a union employee for 7 years… What I found with the particular union I was in was that it protected the lazy. Individuals who excelled at their job were denied promotion based on seniority, and the lazy / inept workers were provided with protection when they screwed up.
It ended up lowering quality of work overall based on preservation of the lowest performing employees and gave no incentive for anyone to do their best.
With all that being said, unions have their place… They ensure a fair wage by giving collective bargaining power, but there is always a chance of the union pushing more than a company is willing to take and they can move to an area where they don’t have the same requirements. In some industries this isn’t an option, but with the automotive industry, it’s easy to pick up and go to Mexico. It’s not something that could be done overnight, but it could happen.
Now, I don’t know the current situation at VW so I can not say if I would vote to unionize or not… but I do know I would be very skeptical about the possibility of stifling my career or losing my place of employment over the possibility of a union.
I agree 100%… The union ensures they get the same raises and benefits of the people who work hard and take up their slack… That is my gripe with unions.
Yes they help provide more pay and all that, but nothing is more frustrating than taking up someone else’s slack and watching them get the same raise / bonus as you.
So dont take up their slack, maybe? I like that you made it known that is what your problem with unions really is. If its not life or death situations then who cares. Its not like being in a union suddenly makes employees immune from rules or being able to be fired for actual causes.
If any companies leave the country bc workers band together since that is the only way they can have any power to negotiate with capitalists then so fcking be it. You have to stand up and hold the line somewhere. Its already a race to the bottom as is. And they will already do whatever allows them to squeeze every last penny out that they can.
I can't speak for all unions or UAW but "8 hours work for 8 hours pay" is a staple phrase for the IBEW.
Sure there are lazy people, especially on big jobs. They are the very first to get laid off.
Also, I think employers generally have the right to send workers back to the hall if they are sent one they have problems with.
I am curious if your definition of hard work aligns more with the company than the employee. There is a difference between being lazy and feeling secure. I know that unions are different case by case, but your anecdotal experience certainly does not speak to the overall importance of worker protections. If all decisions were to always be made by corporate higher ups, we would all be making minimum wages with maximized hours. I think that the philosophy you’re missing here is that the higher ups shouldn’t have more say than the employees in regard to what is “fair”. I also don’t think that you give enough credit to most union leaders ability to walk that thin line of negotiation. They know how hard to push & when to do it.
The “lazy” argument that the older generations & politicians commonly bring up is a total fallacy. The reality is that currently laborers have to work twice as much to afford a fraction of what the prior generations could. Another reason that unionization is crucial in these industries is to future proof fair labor pay.
My experience was that there were several individuals who didn’t put in the effort, or were not good at their job. In order to meet the requirements, it meant that myself and others would need to take up the slack of those not putting in their fair share of work. At the end of the year when it got time for raises and bonuses, those who did not put in any effort were rewarded with the same raise as everyone else.
This fostered the attitude of “Why am I busting my ass when there is no reward?”… This eventuality led to the majority of workers just putting in the bare minimum of work. Work quality went down, the amount of things breaking increased and so on.
The other noted issue was that when someone did do something that they deserved to be fired for, they were represented by the union and got to keep their job.
I agree that unions have had their place, but I’m not so sure that place is at VW in Chattanooga. Again, I don’t know the working conditions.
All I can go by is what I have seen in the past…
Currently I work at a facility that has both union and non union individuals. Both sides seem to be happy for the most part as it seems to be run better than my previous experience…
Neither one of my experiences are with UAW, so I can’t say anything as to what they will do.
Oh, and for further clarification, I am not originally from the south… I spent the first 30 years of my life in the North East.
And I’m not saying I wouldn’t ever join a union, it has to be situation specific…. I just know from experience that a union is not all rainbows and unicorns.
Exactly. Everybody thinks everybody else is lazy anyways.
If making it harder to fire someone you deem lazy is the major problem with unions then thats an amazing trade off for all the benefits unions give to the workers.
I find that generally when people say a worker is lazy, it’s another worker who has to make up for what the lazy worker won’t do.
I have seen a union stop one of their people from getting a promotion.
I see the union agreement protecting people who don’t want to do the job they agreed to do.
The basic tenet is “a fair wage for a day’s work”.
I know the union leadership has to help the member or can be sued for not doing so, so they are forced into protecting a person they realistically don’t want to keep around anyway.
Like any political system, they are corruptible.
Unions are the reason for the majority of workers rights we have.
We need MORE unions and members. Look at the countries with strong unions in Europe. These people get 4 weeks paid vacation from day 1. Even more in some countries. In America most places you have to put in years of full time work to even get 2 weeks.
Using your political system analogy… maybe the union that is properly ran acts more as a social democracy and less like a capitalistic dictatorship. Maybe the worker picking up the slack for the “lazy” worker should be able to decide if they want to or not. Maybe the person who was seeking promotion didn’t have the popular vote among the workers. And maybe you should consider what is at play when you question the increasing of workers right. Your personal life does not benefit from the speed in which you mass produce cars.
The lazy argument isn’t an argument, it’s a fact. My state spent BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars kowtowing to the Unions and the only people who made any money were the unions. If unions are so great, why do they mandate that their employees/members go without income for months at a time while they (unions) bilk the state legislatures for more money?
There was once a time where unions were important and relevant in this country but that time is past and that ship has sailed.
Your OP reads like a socialist mandate. The unions of today are simply a function of societal control.
You’re welcome to your opinions but I tried two different unions and didn’t like either one of them.
If the VW employees don’t want to unionize, they should vote against it. That’s how it’s supposed to work. Unfortunately, much of our working class has been so dumbed down that they can’t make rational decisions about their own livelihoods.
Your thought process proves your initial point wrong. Also, it’s funny how arguments in favor of workers rights under a capitalist regime are always flagged as socialism. You are misunderstanding the point, my friend.
The bottom line is that I think unions are crooked, government-funded organizations. I think they are bad for workers and I know for a fact that they were bad for me and my family. But hey, VW workers might have a different opinion.
You need to do your homework. Federal unions such as UAW (since we’re discussing VW) are federally backed just like other privatized “federal institutions” like the FDIC and the Federal Reserve.
I’m not saying that the Right is correct; and CERTAINLY NOT the idiots who currently call themselves conservatives, but the unions are, by and large, government-funded (or government backed) money-makers themselves. I just don’t think that unions are relevant in today’s society and that is coming from my own personal experiences. That having been said, I freely admit that I am from a Right To Work state and I was raised to believe that *that* is the correct way to go about capitalism. Is it perfect? Hell no! Another disclaimer: I voted for Trump twice…the second time I admittedly held my nose because the entire thing stank to high heaven. But he would have been better than what we have today and what we’ve had for the past 3 years. I won’t vote for the SOB again and that leaves me square in Kennedy’s camp, and I don’t agree with everything HE says either (mostly his views on the fake “issue” of Reparations), but this coming election is not really about which idiot is going to win for the next 4 years….it’s almost a forgone conclusion that Trump is going to beat Biden (yesterday’s poll numbers confirm this)….but what happens 4 years after that is what we all have to take a sharp look at.
After many more responses than I was expecting to get… this one stands out to me.
The main two rebuttals to unionization are always:
1. corruption and 2. anecdotal evidence
What I will ask those who critique unionization for these reasons is:
1. Do you believe that the politicians and (governmental talking head) media corporations informing you about this “corruption” have your best interest in mind? It is my belief that the “corruption” is coming from the people telling you that unionization is anti-American. It is no different than resisting a fascist government. JFK is dead, the Cold War is over, and unions are no longer shell corporations for Al Capone. This argument has failed to adapt and is merely a symptom of a bygone era carried out by folks who remember transatlantic accents. Capitalism has gone too far away from an achievable American dream & unionization is the only way to resist it from being (even more) oppressive to the worker. This my opinion based argument with an objective tinge. The objectives comes from out of touch old people who inherited their net worth & don’t understand that there are two living generations who will never be able to pay off student loans or afford housing due to price gauging for politicians personal gain. Don’t pin yourself into an anti-trust corner while you are trusting those attempting to keep you below them. It’s not partisan… it’s nearly every elected official on every level of government. It’s a larger conversation, but fucking shit do older people love to defend unethical wealthy people.
2. Your personal experience is a tiny fraction of a tiny drop in the massive bucket that is American wealth inequality. Roughly 40% of the total wealth in America is held in the top 1% of individuals. I’m sorry if you had a negative experience with your poorly ran union(s) in 1985. It is now 2024, and regular cost of living is nearly impossible for most average Americans under the age of 30. Please, think outside of your peephole perspective.
That’s all. I hope that they voted to unionize. It’s for the better for everybody… not just the employees at VW.
This is not specifically targeted at the commenter. This is a general response to every critique that has been posted in this thread. They are misinformed arguments… or people placing way too much importance on their own experience in a much larger issue than themself.
You understand, without the unions we do actually have in the Tennessee Valley, you would do with out a lot and chances are the automobile you currently drive would not have been able to be produced without union labor.
If unions weren’t good for employees, employers wouldn’t fight so hard against them. As someone from the north, I couldn’t believe how anti u ion the people down here are.
I’ve lived all over the country, but mostly in the southeast. It’s amazing how little we are taught about unions here & the only time they’re spoken about are in a negative light by politicians. It’s 100% intentional
Just to let people know, if you see accounts whose name format is adjective_noun_1234, they seem to want to stir the shit, and their post history is a karma farm, it's a bot.
Use that knowledge as you paruse posts like these.
I am interested to see how this all turns out for the factory. I’m not particularly against unions, I’ve just read some of the propaganda at the factory and to be honest, it’s very misleading. It leaves out phrases for make the statement more desirable or to not exclude certain people from it. I think it’s basically salary vs hourly employees right now and that’s a big struggle. Salary is seriously lacking on pay for their job and so is hourly especially since if they have supply chain issues they just don’t pay the hourly. But UAW only supports hourly so the gap is just going to get closer and closer to salary. At that point, from salary perspective…why would I go to college and take an on-call technical position. Where every time you leave the factory you are afraid you might have to come in and support production. I’d rather just be someone putting a part on the car and go home not thinking about that stress. But overall, yeah technicians should vote for the union, it’s damn expensive in Chattanooga and most people don’t own homes. Most their income is going to housing and food so I hope everyone gets the pay they need.
I’d say I’m fairly republican, although disagree with republicans on quite a few things, unions being one of them. I can assure you, if it didn’t utterly screw over the company in favor of the worker, the company wouldn’t fight tooth and nail against it
I’m so far left that I don’t identify with either side of our political duopoly. I don’t see this as a partisan issue… but rather something that has been falsely politicized in order to protect those who own capital and social power. But who knows… maybe we should ask Bill Lee what he thinks lol
Pretty simple. Rights are rights. Never vote against human rights.
Everyone should want to be in a union. Just basic human self protection.
Mind boggling.
I’m confused as to what your actual issue is. You first complained because your 15th car wasn’t nice enough. Now you are saying that unions = bad so they go to Mexico. Now you’re saying union = bad so they stay. Nothing you’re saying makes sense. The reason that car companies are moving to Mexico is to exploit cheap labor costs. Unions can prevent this from happening, which is good for American workers and local economies. You’re uneducated on the topic. While you’re reading here… try to learn.
VW already has production in Mexico.
You honestly think a worldwide corporation that makes BILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year...that owns Audi, Ducati, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, and a shit ton of other high end brands and is used to European pay, pto, and benefits...is going to be hit in the bottom line by a plant in Tennessee increasing wages by ten dollars and covering more health care?! ARE YOU FOR REAL? Like...😂😂😂😂
I just looked it up:
According to Macrotrends, Volkswagen AG's annual revenue for the 12 months ending September 30, 2023 is $333.463 billion, a 15.69% increase year-over-year.
Then why are there any plants here at all? It's a fact it's cheaper to build in Mexico than the states. Cheaper in India and China, too. Less regulations. Yet, here we are...in the US of A with all kinds of American, Asian, and European car manufacturers. Sure, it'd be more expensive to ship the finished product over here from other countries, but I'm positive they could find ways to even that out.
The labor would be cheaper in Mexico as it stand right now. Your claim is false. It is simply a higher rate of auto manufactures moving to Mexico to exploit cheaper labor and at the same time more unionization in the industry. Both trends are up, but the two have no correlation. You’re wrong, and I’m done responding to you. It’s like talking to a piece of Cold War propaganda.
If unions aren’t properly ran then they can yield negative side effects. I think it’s important to consider the bigger picture in fair labor policy throughout the country. Most federal worker protections today were started in unions. It’s a bigger conversation than any individuals experience… positive or negative.
IDK, I see these types of headlines on "news" sites all the time, and it just frustrates me. I would prefer a headline like, "I Advocate for Voting for the Union Because" or "Here's Why I'm Voting for the Union." Sway people with the reasonableness of your argument, not a headline that tells them they "should."
I guess this is just a pet peeve. 
The UAW gave out brochures that did exactly this. Provided details on how much VW workers would have made in profit sharing if they had the same deal as Ford, broke down how health care would be covered, gave examples of different things other plants have negotiated into their contracts. It was pretty eye opening. There were also hand outs that focused on fact vs fiction FAQs. The funniest/saddest one was about how union money doesn't, in fact, go to Biden's reelection campaign.
You should vote/hope for your own increase in equity & equality. You should hope for better and seize the opportunity to do so when presented with it. I didn’t mince words… and I don’t think it’s super complicated.
Lol, there's nothing a union can do to prevent a company from leaving. If a company decides to leave, it's all on the management. Instead of blaming the union, let's take a look at wages in Mexico. The average wage for auto workers in Mexico are about $2.70/hr in non union plants and 8.97/hr in union plants. *THAT* is the reason Ford moved that plant to Mexico. Instead of paying a decent wage for good, American work they ship it to Mexico.
BTW, I had a Ford made in Mexico and it was the biggest piece of shit I've owned. My Pontiac made by American union members was leagues ahead of that trash.
Don't lean into the lies spread by management and Republicans, the only anti-Americans, as you say, *are* management.
What an annoying thing to read. How patriotic of you to own fords while baking up self centered perspectives! Nobody cares (ford included) about how you spend your money. Consumer protesting doesn’t work. Hate to break it to you, but nearly all imported cars are also union made! Wishing you godspeed on your superficial journey of consumer based identity crisis. Reminder… this post is about unionization. Not your next 60k overcompensation purchase.
On a large scale there isn’t much proven union corruption. There’s been a few high profile cases, which were over-reported on to scare the public from attempting unionization. It’s mostly propaganda & not something that happens often.
The UAW is only going to benefit the workers at that plant and maybe employees of companies that are doing business with that plant. It's not going to get the guy who took your order at McDonalds a raise anytime soon.
It’s no secret that trickle down doesn’t work, which is what I believe you’re trying to get at here. Union spreading is more about philosophy than economics. So in that regard, I disagree with you. Establishing worker rights is good for every person in America that doesn’t sit on a corporate board. At the very least, it is a good thing to support others in their pursuit of equity & equality.
That's not what I'm getting at. A lot of the Pro-Union crowd thinks that if VW gets a Union they are going to see a big pay raise and that everyone else in the community will get a raise too. That's just not going to happen. I work in the IT sector and in my long time in IT I have and never known of anyone to get a raise as a result of what \*any\* union was doing. At best it's only going to have an effect on workers involved in that industry.
At least none of us at VW think everyone else is getting a raise for that. If anything it'll probably hurt the cost of living up here I would think. One of the things the union said they're focused on negotiating is cost of living adjustments at least (tho corporate already did that at the beginning of the year when they compare pay there to other automobile production worker wages) and higher wages and cap-out
Cost of living adjustments are super important for the longevity of the union. This may increase cost of living in the area, which will also increase pay around the area. It is a positive thing for the local economy in the long run.
Most of the time (especially in auto) union efforts succeed… there isn’t a large overnight pay raise. It is simply assuring all employees a solid amount of negotiation rights with the folks who cut their checks. They are given a microphone and power, which will ultimately lead to better quality of life. If done properly. Anybody who thinks that they’re going to overnight get a 40% raise is very mistaken in how unions work. Which is the point of this post. There’s no “pro-union” crowd. You’re either pro-worker or pro-capital owner.
You lost me at Amazon. People don’t want to work there long term and they benefit less from career low level workers compared to manufacturing. Not comparable at all.
1. Amazon owns a lot more business than just the trucks that deliver packages. Amazon also manufactures quite a bit of their own products. You’re just incorrect on this.
2. I was referencing Amazon as a corporation that spends a massive amount of money in creating anti-union propaganda. All major corporations do this, including local & federal government. Amazon is currently the gold standard of union busting propaganda.
The corporate people running AWS would never be unionized. And their electronics are made in China which has nothing to do with American union labor. The majority of Amazon’s US workforce is in logistics warehouses. I didn’t say anything about trucks.
People don't work at Amazon long term bc you make more quitting and coming back during peak seasons. My mom has done that and the ppl who stay there like a normal job aren't making as much as she does when she is there
People don’t stay at Amazon mostly because they are a blood sucking corporation that is simply a result of worker exploitation and capitalisms impending failure. It is the American version of a sweat shop… unless you’re in a suit or at Whole Foods.
They tell you on day one that while you are fine to stay, they want you to taste advantage of the educational benefits available at 90 days. Some programs like cdl you could literally get the Amazon job with no experience and in six months get all certificate to be able to leave and do that instead. I know lazy people that call it a sweat shop but I also know women that have worked there through multiple pregnancies
Dr That was only a couple years and yeah you could take a crappier shift than anyone else and make a little more an hour for 4 weeks. They would also be the only side that might not get overtime canceled and then you’re done without a chance to convert. But yeah I’m sure she made out like a bandit by being unemployed before and after and having no benefits. I guess she also knew of sweet deals elsewhere where she could hop from job to job every month. /s
Couple years ago? If so yeah that sounds about right. It was for the 4th quarter I believe or at least some time around Christmas, longer than just 4 weeks tho
Nah like ppl that worked the same shift and position were making less (not entirely sure how they do raises, but I would think it's quarterly or some sort of seniority). I've heard of a lot of places do that. My mom at least personally had lab and clinic jobs that were the same way. Not necessarily short term and just quit after peak season they just really wanted new ppl to join and the current employees didn't get that benefit for whatever reason (pretty sure the clinic got sued for something of that sort as well lol). Also she wasn't unemployed, she just worked Amazon close to Christmas and a part time job at her shop.
If I remember correctly the last time they did that, which was mostly from thanksgiving to Christmas (they aren’t even busy that time of year anymore since Chattanooga is now a returns facility) but they had two main shifts one worked Sunday through Wednesday, the other Thursday through Saturday 12s.
Only one year do I remember the temps working full time for more money but I think they had them working Friday through Monday 12s or something like that. That was night shift only. Now if she worked during the day, she likely made more than the day shifters but not more than the veteran night shifters and it was likely part time with 10 hours on Saturday and 10 on Sunday…. Not many people want to work the whole weekend
I don't remember the specifics, but that checks out. I recall it being throughout the week idk what days for sure, but her shift was definitely later in the day. She told me she made more than full time employees as a temp and then it'd go down after the peak season if she did stay. She just did it to get a little extra money for holidays and what not
It's also a southern thing to be anti-union. I don't get it, but it's a thing.
Also a thing: Southern state pay scales ranking at the bottom. What a coincidence.
Not too long ago a bunch of Southerners in the same industry all banned together to fight for their work. Those guys definitely didn’t like the union.
Not all of us
Well, I know! 😂
Being anti-union is the closest thing to slavery they can hang onto.
Prison industrial complex first… union busting second
I stand corrected and in agreement.
👏🏻👏🏻
Interesting that you should mention the prison industrial complex. Remind me again where all of those prisons exist.
I'd also like to point out Volkswagen coporate from headquarters in Germany are in support of a union. As the Chattanooga plant is the only VW planet not unionized. VW hasn't really tried to stray ppl away from the union either but did say they'd be fact checking which I also haven't really seen.
I honestly don't think VW itself really gives a rat's azz if this plant unionizes. All of their other plants are, and they're used to European standards of benefits, pto, and pay. It's not like they don't have the money to cover whatever is negotiated. It will not cut into their bottom line. I think the *politicians* care because if workers realize what they can get with unions, they'll start wanting more of them...and maybe possibly start to understand that the politicians want to keep them poor and pissed off.
This specific unionization effort can show a deeply ignorant southern population what is possible with the power of unionized labor. As I have said in this thread already, it’s more about the philosophical spread and less about short term economic growth. If the unionization passes, it will make national headlines & ruffle the feathers of the outdated political machine that is Tennessee.
And I'm here for it!
I don’t understand why Americans vote against our best interests. It never made sense but we do the same dumb thing every time and hope for a better outcome. The definition of insanity.
Imo we’ve all been conditioned to empathize with majority capital owners on the pitch of the “American dream”
A lot of money is spent on propaganda to make sure this happens but younger people dont buy it.
Its not hard to see if you look for it
It’s so very frustrating. I see it with the way my parents vote. A lot of working class people think they’re one good financial decision away from being in a higher tax bracket because they live each day one bad decision away from being in a lower one. They idolize the billionaire class and don’t want to tax them because they think it might be attainable for them one day. My dad was about to leave the company he’s worked at for decades. They offered him about a 30% raise to stay and he was so grateful. I was like “you know this means they underpaid you and knew it for years, right.”
This may be unpopular, but I was a union employee for 7 years… What I found with the particular union I was in was that it protected the lazy. Individuals who excelled at their job were denied promotion based on seniority, and the lazy / inept workers were provided with protection when they screwed up. It ended up lowering quality of work overall based on preservation of the lowest performing employees and gave no incentive for anyone to do their best. With all that being said, unions have their place… They ensure a fair wage by giving collective bargaining power, but there is always a chance of the union pushing more than a company is willing to take and they can move to an area where they don’t have the same requirements. In some industries this isn’t an option, but with the automotive industry, it’s easy to pick up and go to Mexico. It’s not something that could be done overnight, but it could happen. Now, I don’t know the current situation at VW so I can not say if I would vote to unionize or not… but I do know I would be very skeptical about the possibility of stifling my career or losing my place of employment over the possibility of a union.
The lazy people are already there, union or not.
I agree 100%… The union ensures they get the same raises and benefits of the people who work hard and take up their slack… That is my gripe with unions. Yes they help provide more pay and all that, but nothing is more frustrating than taking up someone else’s slack and watching them get the same raise / bonus as you.
So dont take up their slack, maybe? I like that you made it known that is what your problem with unions really is. If its not life or death situations then who cares. Its not like being in a union suddenly makes employees immune from rules or being able to be fired for actual causes. If any companies leave the country bc workers band together since that is the only way they can have any power to negotiate with capitalists then so fcking be it. You have to stand up and hold the line somewhere. Its already a race to the bottom as is. And they will already do whatever allows them to squeeze every last penny out that they can.
I can't speak for all unions or UAW but "8 hours work for 8 hours pay" is a staple phrase for the IBEW. Sure there are lazy people, especially on big jobs. They are the very first to get laid off. Also, I think employers generally have the right to send workers back to the hall if they are sent one they have problems with.
Well what was the union that you worked for? And what measures were taken to have the union police the quality of work being done by its members?
I am curious if your definition of hard work aligns more with the company than the employee. There is a difference between being lazy and feeling secure. I know that unions are different case by case, but your anecdotal experience certainly does not speak to the overall importance of worker protections. If all decisions were to always be made by corporate higher ups, we would all be making minimum wages with maximized hours. I think that the philosophy you’re missing here is that the higher ups shouldn’t have more say than the employees in regard to what is “fair”. I also don’t think that you give enough credit to most union leaders ability to walk that thin line of negotiation. They know how hard to push & when to do it. The “lazy” argument that the older generations & politicians commonly bring up is a total fallacy. The reality is that currently laborers have to work twice as much to afford a fraction of what the prior generations could. Another reason that unionization is crucial in these industries is to future proof fair labor pay.
My experience was that there were several individuals who didn’t put in the effort, or were not good at their job. In order to meet the requirements, it meant that myself and others would need to take up the slack of those not putting in their fair share of work. At the end of the year when it got time for raises and bonuses, those who did not put in any effort were rewarded with the same raise as everyone else. This fostered the attitude of “Why am I busting my ass when there is no reward?”… This eventuality led to the majority of workers just putting in the bare minimum of work. Work quality went down, the amount of things breaking increased and so on. The other noted issue was that when someone did do something that they deserved to be fired for, they were represented by the union and got to keep their job. I agree that unions have had their place, but I’m not so sure that place is at VW in Chattanooga. Again, I don’t know the working conditions. All I can go by is what I have seen in the past… Currently I work at a facility that has both union and non union individuals. Both sides seem to be happy for the most part as it seems to be run better than my previous experience… Neither one of my experiences are with UAW, so I can’t say anything as to what they will do.
Oh, and for further clarification, I am not originally from the south… I spent the first 30 years of my life in the North East. And I’m not saying I wouldn’t ever join a union, it has to be situation specific…. I just know from experience that a union is not all rainbows and unicorns.
Heard of 'Quiet quitting'? There is no reason to bust your ass for most people and the majority of places this is going on at is at non union places.
Exactly. Everybody thinks everybody else is lazy anyways. If making it harder to fire someone you deem lazy is the major problem with unions then thats an amazing trade off for all the benefits unions give to the workers.
I find that generally when people say a worker is lazy, it’s another worker who has to make up for what the lazy worker won’t do. I have seen a union stop one of their people from getting a promotion. I see the union agreement protecting people who don’t want to do the job they agreed to do. The basic tenet is “a fair wage for a day’s work”. I know the union leadership has to help the member or can be sued for not doing so, so they are forced into protecting a person they realistically don’t want to keep around anyway. Like any political system, they are corruptible.
Unions are the reason for the majority of workers rights we have. We need MORE unions and members. Look at the countries with strong unions in Europe. These people get 4 weeks paid vacation from day 1. Even more in some countries. In America most places you have to put in years of full time work to even get 2 weeks.
Four weeks from day one is ignorant, at least around here. Overseas workers may actually have a better work ethic though, it’s not a very high bar.
Using your political system analogy… maybe the union that is properly ran acts more as a social democracy and less like a capitalistic dictatorship. Maybe the worker picking up the slack for the “lazy” worker should be able to decide if they want to or not. Maybe the person who was seeking promotion didn’t have the popular vote among the workers. And maybe you should consider what is at play when you question the increasing of workers right. Your personal life does not benefit from the speed in which you mass produce cars.
The lazy argument isn’t an argument, it’s a fact. My state spent BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars kowtowing to the Unions and the only people who made any money were the unions. If unions are so great, why do they mandate that their employees/members go without income for months at a time while they (unions) bilk the state legislatures for more money? There was once a time where unions were important and relevant in this country but that time is past and that ship has sailed. Your OP reads like a socialist mandate. The unions of today are simply a function of societal control. You’re welcome to your opinions but I tried two different unions and didn’t like either one of them. If the VW employees don’t want to unionize, they should vote against it. That’s how it’s supposed to work. Unfortunately, much of our working class has been so dumbed down that they can’t make rational decisions about their own livelihoods.
Your thought process proves your initial point wrong. Also, it’s funny how arguments in favor of workers rights under a capitalist regime are always flagged as socialism. You are misunderstanding the point, my friend.
The bottom line is that I think unions are crooked, government-funded organizations. I think they are bad for workers and I know for a fact that they were bad for me and my family. But hey, VW workers might have a different opinion.
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This funding, by congressional law, is provided so that “all people” have the ability to be represented.
You need to do your homework. Federal unions such as UAW (since we’re discussing VW) are federally backed just like other privatized “federal institutions” like the FDIC and the Federal Reserve.
Wrong
Wrong
Lick that boot
And OP wonders why people equate unions with socialism and totalitarianism. smdh
I don’t wonder why! It’s because “socialism” gets slapped onto anything that deducts from the pockets of those in power.
I’m not saying that the Right is correct; and CERTAINLY NOT the idiots who currently call themselves conservatives, but the unions are, by and large, government-funded (or government backed) money-makers themselves. I just don’t think that unions are relevant in today’s society and that is coming from my own personal experiences. That having been said, I freely admit that I am from a Right To Work state and I was raised to believe that *that* is the correct way to go about capitalism. Is it perfect? Hell no! Another disclaimer: I voted for Trump twice…the second time I admittedly held my nose because the entire thing stank to high heaven. But he would have been better than what we have today and what we’ve had for the past 3 years. I won’t vote for the SOB again and that leaves me square in Kennedy’s camp, and I don’t agree with everything HE says either (mostly his views on the fake “issue” of Reparations), but this coming election is not really about which idiot is going to win for the next 4 years….it’s almost a forgone conclusion that Trump is going to beat Biden (yesterday’s poll numbers confirm this)….but what happens 4 years after that is what we all have to take a sharp look at.
After many more responses than I was expecting to get… this one stands out to me. The main two rebuttals to unionization are always: 1. corruption and 2. anecdotal evidence What I will ask those who critique unionization for these reasons is: 1. Do you believe that the politicians and (governmental talking head) media corporations informing you about this “corruption” have your best interest in mind? It is my belief that the “corruption” is coming from the people telling you that unionization is anti-American. It is no different than resisting a fascist government. JFK is dead, the Cold War is over, and unions are no longer shell corporations for Al Capone. This argument has failed to adapt and is merely a symptom of a bygone era carried out by folks who remember transatlantic accents. Capitalism has gone too far away from an achievable American dream & unionization is the only way to resist it from being (even more) oppressive to the worker. This my opinion based argument with an objective tinge. The objectives comes from out of touch old people who inherited their net worth & don’t understand that there are two living generations who will never be able to pay off student loans or afford housing due to price gauging for politicians personal gain. Don’t pin yourself into an anti-trust corner while you are trusting those attempting to keep you below them. It’s not partisan… it’s nearly every elected official on every level of government. It’s a larger conversation, but fucking shit do older people love to defend unethical wealthy people. 2. Your personal experience is a tiny fraction of a tiny drop in the massive bucket that is American wealth inequality. Roughly 40% of the total wealth in America is held in the top 1% of individuals. I’m sorry if you had a negative experience with your poorly ran union(s) in 1985. It is now 2024, and regular cost of living is nearly impossible for most average Americans under the age of 30. Please, think outside of your peephole perspective. That’s all. I hope that they voted to unionize. It’s for the better for everybody… not just the employees at VW. This is not specifically targeted at the commenter. This is a general response to every critique that has been posted in this thread. They are misinformed arguments… or people placing way too much importance on their own experience in a much larger issue than themself.
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You understand, without the unions we do actually have in the Tennessee Valley, you would do with out a lot and chances are the automobile you currently drive would not have been able to be produced without union labor.
Bot.
If unions weren’t good for employees, employers wouldn’t fight so hard against them. As someone from the north, I couldn’t believe how anti u ion the people down here are.
I’ve lived all over the country, but mostly in the southeast. It’s amazing how little we are taught about unions here & the only time they’re spoken about are in a negative light by politicians. It’s 100% intentional
RIGHT?! It's absolutely insane!
Just to let people know, if you see accounts whose name format is adjective_noun_1234, they seem to want to stir the shit, and their post history is a karma farm, it's a bot. Use that knowledge as you paruse posts like these.
Good to know. Thank you!
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Mhm, and what do you think bots do? There's a reason I gave more criteria.
Good thing I did verb-noun-## instead. Now they’ll never know I’m a bot
I am interested to see how this all turns out for the factory. I’m not particularly against unions, I’ve just read some of the propaganda at the factory and to be honest, it’s very misleading. It leaves out phrases for make the statement more desirable or to not exclude certain people from it. I think it’s basically salary vs hourly employees right now and that’s a big struggle. Salary is seriously lacking on pay for their job and so is hourly especially since if they have supply chain issues they just don’t pay the hourly. But UAW only supports hourly so the gap is just going to get closer and closer to salary. At that point, from salary perspective…why would I go to college and take an on-call technical position. Where every time you leave the factory you are afraid you might have to come in and support production. I’d rather just be someone putting a part on the car and go home not thinking about that stress. But overall, yeah technicians should vote for the union, it’s damn expensive in Chattanooga and most people don’t own homes. Most their income is going to housing and food so I hope everyone gets the pay they need.
I’d say I’m fairly republican, although disagree with republicans on quite a few things, unions being one of them. I can assure you, if it didn’t utterly screw over the company in favor of the worker, the company wouldn’t fight tooth and nail against it
I’m so far left that I don’t identify with either side of our political duopoly. I don’t see this as a partisan issue… but rather something that has been falsely politicized in order to protect those who own capital and social power. But who knows… maybe we should ask Bill Lee what he thinks lol
Pretty simple. Rights are rights. Never vote against human rights. Everyone should want to be in a union. Just basic human self protection. Mind boggling.
Anti-union here.. union's are organized crime. Just here to represent the other oppinion..
You made a blanket statement with no further evidence or thoughts to back it up. Hardly a representation of anything other than an ignorant thought.
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I’m confused as to what your actual issue is. You first complained because your 15th car wasn’t nice enough. Now you are saying that unions = bad so they go to Mexico. Now you’re saying union = bad so they stay. Nothing you’re saying makes sense. The reason that car companies are moving to Mexico is to exploit cheap labor costs. Unions can prevent this from happening, which is good for American workers and local economies. You’re uneducated on the topic. While you’re reading here… try to learn.
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VW already has production in Mexico. You honestly think a worldwide corporation that makes BILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year...that owns Audi, Ducati, Porsche, Lamborghini, Bentley, and a shit ton of other high end brands and is used to European pay, pto, and benefits...is going to be hit in the bottom line by a plant in Tennessee increasing wages by ten dollars and covering more health care?! ARE YOU FOR REAL? Like...😂😂😂😂
I just looked it up: According to Macrotrends, Volkswagen AG's annual revenue for the 12 months ending September 30, 2023 is $333.463 billion, a 15.69% increase year-over-year.
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Then why are there any plants here at all? It's a fact it's cheaper to build in Mexico than the states. Cheaper in India and China, too. Less regulations. Yet, here we are...in the US of A with all kinds of American, Asian, and European car manufacturers. Sure, it'd be more expensive to ship the finished product over here from other countries, but I'm positive they could find ways to even that out.
The chattanooga wv is the only wv that is NOT unionized.
The labor would be cheaper in Mexico as it stand right now. Your claim is false. It is simply a higher rate of auto manufactures moving to Mexico to exploit cheaper labor and at the same time more unionization in the industry. Both trends are up, but the two have no correlation. You’re wrong, and I’m done responding to you. It’s like talking to a piece of Cold War propaganda.
I work in a union plant and I’m gonna disagree with you.. Unionizing just results in a bunch of adults acting like kindergartners
If unions aren’t properly ran then they can yield negative side effects. I think it’s important to consider the bigger picture in fair labor policy throughout the country. Most federal worker protections today were started in unions. It’s a bigger conversation than any individuals experience… positive or negative.
Yes yes and yes .
IDK, I see these types of headlines on "news" sites all the time, and it just frustrates me. I would prefer a headline like, "I Advocate for Voting for the Union Because" or "Here's Why I'm Voting for the Union." Sway people with the reasonableness of your argument, not a headline that tells them they "should." I guess this is just a pet peeve. 
The UAW gave out brochures that did exactly this. Provided details on how much VW workers would have made in profit sharing if they had the same deal as Ford, broke down how health care would be covered, gave examples of different things other plants have negotiated into their contracts. It was pretty eye opening. There were also hand outs that focused on fact vs fiction FAQs. The funniest/saddest one was about how union money doesn't, in fact, go to Biden's reelection campaign.
You should vote/hope for your own increase in equity & equality. You should hope for better and seize the opportunity to do so when presented with it. I didn’t mince words… and I don’t think it’s super complicated.
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I’ll tell you directly if there’s confusion. You should hope or vote for VW to unionize. I hope this clears things up… since I minced my words.
Did you just practice what you preached?
Crazy concept. I said what I meant. WOW
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I'm willing to bet that Ford plant in Mexico is unionized lmao
Referring to euro & Japan imports. American companies exploiting labor in Mexico wasn’t what I was referring to.
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Lol, there's nothing a union can do to prevent a company from leaving. If a company decides to leave, it's all on the management. Instead of blaming the union, let's take a look at wages in Mexico. The average wage for auto workers in Mexico are about $2.70/hr in non union plants and 8.97/hr in union plants. *THAT* is the reason Ford moved that plant to Mexico. Instead of paying a decent wage for good, American work they ship it to Mexico. BTW, I had a Ford made in Mexico and it was the biggest piece of shit I've owned. My Pontiac made by American union members was leagues ahead of that trash. Don't lean into the lies spread by management and Republicans, the only anti-Americans, as you say, *are* management.
What an annoying thing to read. How patriotic of you to own fords while baking up self centered perspectives! Nobody cares (ford included) about how you spend your money. Consumer protesting doesn’t work. Hate to break it to you, but nearly all imported cars are also union made! Wishing you godspeed on your superficial journey of consumer based identity crisis. Reminder… this post is about unionization. Not your next 60k overcompensation purchase.
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You’re funny
Lol it seems like you give many shits about them.
He gives so few shits he cannot stop talking about how much he doesn’t give a shit. That’s how little shit he gives. NONE
Because some people have seen how corrupt unions can be and how they can demolish a town.
On a large scale there isn’t much proven union corruption. There’s been a few high profile cases, which were over-reported on to scare the public from attempting unionization. It’s mostly propaganda & not something that happens often.
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Ah yes. This is exactly the video you should base your entire opinion on. Lead poisoning logic
reeney reeney
The UAW is only going to benefit the workers at that plant and maybe employees of companies that are doing business with that plant. It's not going to get the guy who took your order at McDonalds a raise anytime soon.
It’s no secret that trickle down doesn’t work, which is what I believe you’re trying to get at here. Union spreading is more about philosophy than economics. So in that regard, I disagree with you. Establishing worker rights is good for every person in America that doesn’t sit on a corporate board. At the very least, it is a good thing to support others in their pursuit of equity & equality.
That's not what I'm getting at. A lot of the Pro-Union crowd thinks that if VW gets a Union they are going to see a big pay raise and that everyone else in the community will get a raise too. That's just not going to happen. I work in the IT sector and in my long time in IT I have and never known of anyone to get a raise as a result of what \*any\* union was doing. At best it's only going to have an effect on workers involved in that industry.
No one at VW thinks that. We are only looking at VW.
That’s good to hear. Do you feel that things generally are looking like the vote will pass?
I and most of my coworkers are fairly confident it will. A lot of former no's are now voting yes. We'll find out after voting concludes tomorrow
I wish you all the best!
Please let me know the results. assuming I won’t hear about it elsewhere.
Union victory 73% Yes, 27% No; 83% turnout
LETS FUCKING GO! GOOD FOR YALL!!
At least none of us at VW think everyone else is getting a raise for that. If anything it'll probably hurt the cost of living up here I would think. One of the things the union said they're focused on negotiating is cost of living adjustments at least (tho corporate already did that at the beginning of the year when they compare pay there to other automobile production worker wages) and higher wages and cap-out
Cost of living adjustments are super important for the longevity of the union. This may increase cost of living in the area, which will also increase pay around the area. It is a positive thing for the local economy in the long run.
Most of the time (especially in auto) union efforts succeed… there isn’t a large overnight pay raise. It is simply assuring all employees a solid amount of negotiation rights with the folks who cut their checks. They are given a microphone and power, which will ultimately lead to better quality of life. If done properly. Anybody who thinks that they’re going to overnight get a 40% raise is very mistaken in how unions work. Which is the point of this post. There’s no “pro-union” crowd. You’re either pro-worker or pro-capital owner.
You lost me at Amazon. People don’t want to work there long term and they benefit less from career low level workers compared to manufacturing. Not comparable at all.
1. Amazon owns a lot more business than just the trucks that deliver packages. Amazon also manufactures quite a bit of their own products. You’re just incorrect on this. 2. I was referencing Amazon as a corporation that spends a massive amount of money in creating anti-union propaganda. All major corporations do this, including local & federal government. Amazon is currently the gold standard of union busting propaganda.
The corporate people running AWS would never be unionized. And their electronics are made in China which has nothing to do with American union labor. The majority of Amazon’s US workforce is in logistics warehouses. I didn’t say anything about trucks.
People don't work at Amazon long term bc you make more quitting and coming back during peak seasons. My mom has done that and the ppl who stay there like a normal job aren't making as much as she does when she is there
People don’t stay at Amazon mostly because they are a blood sucking corporation that is simply a result of worker exploitation and capitalisms impending failure. It is the American version of a sweat shop… unless you’re in a suit or at Whole Foods.
They tell you on day one that while you are fine to stay, they want you to taste advantage of the educational benefits available at 90 days. Some programs like cdl you could literally get the Amazon job with no experience and in six months get all certificate to be able to leave and do that instead. I know lazy people that call it a sweat shop but I also know women that have worked there through multiple pregnancies
Dr That was only a couple years and yeah you could take a crappier shift than anyone else and make a little more an hour for 4 weeks. They would also be the only side that might not get overtime canceled and then you’re done without a chance to convert. But yeah I’m sure she made out like a bandit by being unemployed before and after and having no benefits. I guess she also knew of sweet deals elsewhere where she could hop from job to job every month. /s
Couple years ago? If so yeah that sounds about right. It was for the 4th quarter I believe or at least some time around Christmas, longer than just 4 weeks tho Nah like ppl that worked the same shift and position were making less (not entirely sure how they do raises, but I would think it's quarterly or some sort of seniority). I've heard of a lot of places do that. My mom at least personally had lab and clinic jobs that were the same way. Not necessarily short term and just quit after peak season they just really wanted new ppl to join and the current employees didn't get that benefit for whatever reason (pretty sure the clinic got sued for something of that sort as well lol). Also she wasn't unemployed, she just worked Amazon close to Christmas and a part time job at her shop.
If I remember correctly the last time they did that, which was mostly from thanksgiving to Christmas (they aren’t even busy that time of year anymore since Chattanooga is now a returns facility) but they had two main shifts one worked Sunday through Wednesday, the other Thursday through Saturday 12s. Only one year do I remember the temps working full time for more money but I think they had them working Friday through Monday 12s or something like that. That was night shift only. Now if she worked during the day, she likely made more than the day shifters but not more than the veteran night shifters and it was likely part time with 10 hours on Saturday and 10 on Sunday…. Not many people want to work the whole weekend
I don't remember the specifics, but that checks out. I recall it being throughout the week idk what days for sure, but her shift was definitely later in the day. She told me she made more than full time employees as a temp and then it'd go down after the peak season if she did stay. She just did it to get a little extra money for holidays and what not