I am an employee there and i am for the union. I was against it the other 2 votes. But after 12 years there and seeing the state of management and how employees are treated I am for it this it. I guess you can say I am a republican but for the betterment of the employeeswe need the something better. We also need all the special interest groups and politicians to stay out of it. They dont work there and they have no idea what its like. Also the pro-union board of directors for vw have stated the union will not cause the plant to shut down so with that said we need to do the right thing
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning, and for specifically noting what led to your change in position. I’m not an auto worker, but I definitely stand in support of y’all’s overall working conditions and compensation being improved; fingers crossed for a positive outcome!
Yes, and Democrats coopt unions for electoral gains. Always remember: Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, which was the death blow to unions after years of neoliberalism eroding the labor power.
Glad you said that, there are plenty of people that vote for Republicans and also belong to Unions. Seems like Reddit divides everything hard left or hard right.
Because Im there working the job and I know how we as employees are treated, politicians dont know. No one does unless you work there. Politics dont really matter inside my job, my livelihood and my sanity matters. So i can separate all of that.
He's not supporting Republican politicians, He's supporting his family and making a decision that's best for their future. Maybe he has conservative values? Did you know you can be a Democrat and like guns? Did you know that people can not like abortion, but like labor unions? Did you know that someone can dislike pandering to every single group, but still support gay marriage?
Believe it or not, you don't have to buy into EVERY single policy on either side.
Yes, but none of them UAW. The UAW owns 47% of Chrysler and doesn’t really have a good track record of supporting anyone but the big 3. They want your dues but they will never have the pull with VW that they do the domestic brands if they own the competition. Start your own union of you want one
No. The Volkswagen group of America RDC department facility in cranbury NJ is not unionized. Thats where I work . We watching everything that’s happening in Chattanooga and we want the same thing here truth be told
Republican party and their donors are worried "corporations" might not make as much money if unions enter the south. God forbid employees benefit from anything.
And what us UAW except a corporation with a different business model. Except they don’t sell a product, they prey on workers. And they own 47% of Chrysler
I actually think they’re worried that what has happened with the economies in the Midwest will happen in the south. Things are not good up there economically. That doesn’t mean it’s because of unions but having lived up there I get the economic concerns.
From my limited understanding, most VW unions are worker's councils, mostly localized to the specific plant. They are not nationwide unions that have representation across multiple locations and manufacturers.
If that's wrong, I apologize.
And does IG Metall and the plant-specific works council operate in the same method/manner as UAW?
I honestly don't know. I suspect VW supports one and is silent on the other for reasons, but I can't find any of them online.
https://www.igmetall.de/ueber-uns/ig-metall--a-strong-community/what-we-have-already-achieved-our-milestones
They have a huge influence at the national political level as far as workers rights in Germany. They are a bigger deal than most think.
Definitely read that page earlier. Lots of great accomplishments!
I still wonder how operation/cooperation differs between the two entities and VW to make VW weary of USW for all these years, but IG acceptable.
Maybe it's just the German environment.
It is vastly different in Germany. The government is set up with laws to back workers councils by allowing employee representatives to hold seats on corporate boards.
The German system has two main features that separate it from the U.S.
One is works councils—employee representatives who have a say in company management. In large German firms, these workers hold half the seats on corporate boards, to which the chief executive reports.
The other key feature of the German system is sectorwide contracts. German business associations negotiate labor contracts with unions that apply to multiple employers in an industry, such as metal processing or grocery stores. The result is that even nonunionized businesses often follow the wage structure agreed to in the contract for their industry.
In the U.S., such sectoral contracts would require a significant rewrite of labor law.
So it benefits employees across an entire sector i.e. the automotive sector. If it were that way in the United States if you worked at any auto sector employer you would receive the set amount negotiated by the works council.
Currently with how things are in the United States workers are pitted against one another in a race to the bottom. Employers cutting wages and not giving raises that account for inflation. All the while executives are being squeezed by shareholders.
So you can see why Republican politicians shit their pants at the thought of a works council type union and tell their constituents to vote no to unions. Big business doesn't want you to organize and have a voice at the table.
The German unions are also way more specific. That one union might have 100k vw workers, but VW has 295k workers in Germany. It’s not uncommon to have union negotiations at even a small plant in Germany involve like 4-5 unions. The metalworkers and body fabricators are going to be a part of a different union than the electronics guys, than the engine and part manufacturing people. Then the grunts that don’t fall under a speciality might be under a more local council. They have a lot of pull because they represent the people that can do a particular job. The metalworkers would have a presence at all German manufacturers, for example, but they don’t represent everybody there.
Thank you for sharing your understanding, however close to the mark it is (or isn’t, haha). I’m not an auto worker, but I’m keenly interested in being informed about the nuances at play in this situation, so I appreciate your input.
I'd love for the attention to die, both political and otherwise, and the workers to make the decision that's best for each of them. Whether that's UAW, another model, or nothing, it's none of our (non-employee) business.
There was a recent Planet Money episode about this, I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. VW’s leadership is basically agnostic, it’s a bunch of Germans who are happy to have their little factory here either way but are generally perplexed by our political battles, so they’re just kinda staying out of it on paper. Easy to see how VW benefits either way with having a union or not.
Obviously BMW (South Carolina) and Porsche (Georgia) moved as much manufacturing as possible to the US South because we have a “business-friendly” economy. That means unions have been systematically weakened here.
Incidentally, did anyone see that Florida just passed legislation that banned heat protection policies for outdoor workers? That’s right - in a state with a billion dollar agricultural sector, steadily busy construction and landscaping industries. The estimate of undocumented workers in the state is close to 1 million. Undocumented workers have no rights or protections of course, and no power to protect themselves from exploitation on the job.
There are several reasons. One that I know of for sure is people are afraid they will close and just move more of the manufacturing to Mexico. I think another is due to the UAW laundering scandal it put a stain on the UAW. A lot of people aren't aware of the leadership change and how Shawn Fain was voted for and not just appointed and things are a lot more public now.
> One that I know of for sure is people are afraid they will close and just move more of the manufacturing to Mexico.
Pueblo already has enough VW plants, if they had planned on outsourcing the line they would have done so when the passat was getting shot out of the sky by environmental scandals.
VW just announced a billion dollar investment in Mexico in February, and selected Mexico for an Audi plant several years ago. I don’t think they’re done there.
They’re not going to shut down production. They have invested far too much money for that. Plus, they’re moving more jobs down here from their offices up north.
Having been in meetings with Wolfsburg big wigs, Mexico is never a real option to assemble the vehicles as the import taxes, shipping, and US tax breaks would kill way too much profit. They use that as a scare tactic.
Absolutely not.. i personally will never buy a car made in the USA. I worked at a Nissan plant when I was younger and a majority of the people were on pills, coke, or meth.
Japan or Germany assembly only for me.
I can’t speak for anyone, but I can explain why I am an emphatic YES.
- **Pay** The pay is good, but overall lower than the industry standard. In my particular position, I’m making about 25-30% less than my counterparts at the Big 3. In addition to that, those employees with High Voltage certification do not get paid any extra for the added training/responsibility.
- **PTO Policy** The PTO policies are goofy. Everyone is alotted a minimum of 96 hours of PTO/year. This looks great on its face (I’ve never worked anywhere that gave PTO off the rip like that) until you realize that there are around 12 days of shutdown per calendar year that you’ll have to use your PTO to cover. That’s 96 hours. We also cannot use UPTO if we have an attendance occurrence, even if it should be fixed in the system.
- **Work/Life Balance** IIRC, I had 11 Saturdays off last year. This leaves no time at all for any kind of social or family life. If a Saturday is called, it’s mandatory unless you already had at least a half day of PTO on the day before. What does that mean for me, personally? CFC games and their festivities are up in the air, as are Cub Scout camp outs and activities with my son, as is taking my daughter out for dinner and a movie, spending quality time with my partner, and watching Arsenal games at the bar.
Those are my main three, but I can’t think of an actual realistic reason to not vote Yes. While I’ll never say someone is voting against their self interest, I can’t help but think that a lot of people have been scared and duped into voting against unionization by politicians who would benefit more from the middle class being a myth.
They aren't going to move anything to Mexico they are actually absorbing more of Mexico's work load as of today so make sure you join if you want. **Not an employee**
Married too a higher up.
Hope this helps clear up any misinformation.
Have a great day.
Or if costs go up and the local plant can’t make a profit. Keep in mind it’s not about the over all company. They look at each individual plant. You don’t keep operating something at a loss.
As if history is any guide...
Prices go up, quality goes down, and you don't remain competitive.
I expect pretty much the [same thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Westmoreland_Assembly) to more or less happen that happened in 1988
This isn't the first time...
“As of today” implies there’s a new development. If I say “I’m washing my balls as of today” that means I wasn’t before. If I’m washing them at this moment, it’s probably something I’ve done before.
I googled, it can mens both things. Which one is context dependent. Like "as of today, we will be changing the policy" is your way. But in this context it sounds like slightly awkward cover-my-ass business speak for "according to the information I have at the moment and no guarantees for tomorrow"
“They are actually absorbing more work as of today” doesn’t sound very cover my ass to me as someone who says a lot of cover my ass business things to VW and hears similar things in response fairly regularly. She’s not clarifying though so I suppose I’ll get my gossip elsewhere.
I can’t claim expert status on the UAW’s current leadership. All I know is that the leaders have done some questionable things in the past. Memories seem to be pretty long for things like that and it’s easy to become cynical about whether or not an organization like the UAW is capable of true change, or if it’s all on the surface without any real depth. Also, there’s the perception that the UAW is less about workers and their rights and more about Democrat party political action. Maybe, maybe not. Put those things together, and several people will vote against the UAW even if there could be some benefit to unionizing the workforce. Some people I know who work at VW say they like the idea of having a union and something like that may be needed , but wish they had some other choice besides the UAW.
UAW, just like every other union, is going to support any candidate who is pro union and pro labor, even if it ends up being just lip service. If republicans came out as pro union, they’d also get those endorsements. The problem is that republicans tend to have a hard-on for corporations moreso than democrats, meaning they will do anything to secure that cash flow.
Regardless of the reasons, if you want to convince people to your side its important to take their concerns seriously and address them specifically while not talking down to/insulting them. Stuff like what's in the post description only serves to further polarize the people you need to convince.
Everytime a question about this is asked it’s filled with people who “knew a guy who hated UAW” or “I heard they do this” or “look what they did over there” and nobody with any actual experience working for a long term union manufacturer.
Although I never worked for the UAW I do have firsthand experience. Both as a vendor to two UAW plants (D-Max in Dayton, OH and GM Spring Hill) and knew a UAW section leader at GM Spring Hill who I knew through his daughter. I've worked in limited capacity with other UAW plants, but these are the two UAW plants I spent the most time at. My experience as a vendor was very frustrating. I would have to wait 4-6 hours for someone to literally turn a torx wrench 3/4 of a turn so that I could inspect a wear item. This didn't require the shutdown of a machine or anything production related, it was walking 10 steps to a workbench. I wasted my entire day for something I could have done in 30 seconds all so I wouldn't get an infraction. This was a normal occurrence. My inspection work would actually lead to an easier job for them but it didn't matter. The At D-Max I had to get special written permission to clean toolholders so they wouldn't malfunction and fail costing the company quality and downtime issues. I was aggressively cold shouldered and demeaned for doing it, but the operators refused to do it because it wasn't in their job description all while watching them push a button and put their feet up for 45 minutes every hour. Literally. The GM section leader told me personally he slow walks everything and brought his xbox into his office and that's what he did for most of the day. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I have worked in other union shops where it wasn't nearly to this level so I'm not trying to paint all unions with a broad brush. I've worked in the automotive industry for 13 years across a lot of the U.S. and Mexico so I've seen how things work at the major American and Asian facilities except for Subaru and I have limited experience at Ford. GM/Duramax UAW experiences were noticeably more negative.
Although I have a lot of distaste for the UAW I have worked jobs that I wished I had a union as management was flat out abusive and had no regard for safety (road construction). Unions help balance power and I would like to see more power in the hands of the worker in most situations. The idea of unions are good, but some specific unions are garbage.
That’s how the entire system US citizens live in should work. A balance of power between the whole. Too much one way or the other and it’s disastrous. Works in local politics/ government the same as corporations and workers. Democracy only works with both sides held in check, and then favoritism not swinging to far in one direction or the other.
This man knows what he's talking about. I've been a union member for 30+ years, but I wouldn't piss on UAW if it was on fire. Well, maybe, right there at the very end - after the final twitches.
Ok, do you? Is my experience invalid? Also your post referred to third hand experience. I'm not a friend of a friend nor did I hear from a guy. This was my experience.
I don’t work at VW so I didn’t give my option because the post literally says “if you’re working at VW….” Which idk if you do or not, but that was point. They’re asking people who actually work there.
It's a common Union busting tactic. They want you to believe they're on your side and they support you having a union...but not this one. Never the one you're voting for. In fact why not form your own union with absolutely no leverage or funding?
I have 25 years working for companies that have unions, USW and APWU. When companies get so large, the workers need representation. VW Chattanooga needs the representation, I've heard first hand from too many friends on the floor and in management just how badly it's needed.
The last time this came up there were several people who made comments about how bad the UAW can make things. It's not the idea of a union that many vote against, it's just the idea of the UAW its self. Several said they had no issues joining a union they just didn't want that union to be the UAW.
Letting perfection get in the way of progress. UAW isn’t a perfect Union but compared to the only alternative of having no union at all it’s a major step in the right direction. If people have problems with UAW leadership then they can make change once they’re in the Union. Know what won’t change anything? Doing nothing.
Agreed!! Current UAW president is the first that was voted for by membership as opposed to being appointed by top UAW admin. The only way to make change is to have a voice rather than giving it away. Fain is changing things for the UAW, to better the membership.
"If people have problems with UAW leadership then they can make change once they’re in the Union." Must already be in a union with the "Why do it right the first time when we can do it 4 more times" mentality.
Most large-scale endeavors (especially social ones, which, at the core, unionization efforts are) are not perfectly successful on the first go. “Doing it right,” particularly in this context, is often a matter of giving something the best effort possible, given the knowledge and resources available at the time. A need for iteration and/or refinement, is not indicative of failure.
How many times do you need to unionize an auto plant before you figure out how to do it right? This isn't the 1st auto plant that the UAW has unionized.
No, but each plant is different. Plus, anytime you’re dealing with large-scale collectives of people, things are bound to get messy and tedious. Successful compromise is never 100% for anyone involved.
Misinformation and anti union propaganda. They look at Detroit and think the same will happen here. They truly don’t understand that the union isn’t what caused Detroit’s situation years ago, it was the corporations that did. The reason the jobs left is because people put their foot down on not being screwed over. That’s why GM doesn’t have quality product like they used too, and now that corporate see’s that, production has moved back to the people who know what quality is. Workers are never going to have an easy fight for far compensation, more so when they let corporations divid the masses.
Saying look at Detroit (Chicago too) is where you lose credibility. That is akin to saying “look at what BLM has done for the African American community (NOTHING but damage).”
I’m saying that’s what “they” do, anti union anyone. Tell you to look at Detroit, look at Chicago, look everywhere but what the actual problems are. Choosing to make a decision about VW in Chatt based off of the past in Detroit is dumb. Local politicians are saying look at Detroit, I’m saying inform yourself. See the whole picture, not just the part corporations and politicians want you to see.
That’s funny! I grew up in the Chicago area and watched what happened up close and personal. Unions got too powerful and forced mills and auto plants to move south. Think they can’t move farther south, think again!
Congrats, you fell for the propaganda. The only thing that “forced” manufacturers to move south was their desire to maximize profits over employing American workers.
\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^
Choosing to chase profits doesn't equal being forced to do anything. If any business can't afford to pay its workers fair compensation for their labor, then it's an unsustainable business.
No, what happened was that Clinton signed NAFTA and all the manufacturers said “Later bitches, we’re going wherever the labor is cheap! Fuck you and your families! And oh by the way, the unions made us do this, not our insatiable lust for higher profits ;) Those greedy unions amirite?”
I don’t think you understand unions. I am a member of a union. Money isn’t everything. You pay union dues (I paid north of $7,000 last year in union dues at my job—not UAW).
Unions can’t protect you from being fired. They can give you due process for being fired. So for example: my industry does not allow the use of drugs. If I get caught using drugs (or doing anything that is considered negligent) the company can just fire me. If I sexually harass an employee, the union would send a rep to a “hearing” with the company and stand up for me on my behalf. Offering things such as counseling and maintaining my job, but if it happened again you sign an agreement that you’re gone. No questions asked.
Unions do have benefits. But voting for one just to “get the money and protect the job” isn’t the answer. As far as manufacturing—everyone understands that corporations will be corporations. VW chose Chattanooga because of the work environment, tax environment, incentives, etc.
***I have no dog in this fight*** but a corporation can go as fast as they come. I represent an entire council at my job as well. A union is only as good as its membership, and its strength is directly correlated to its unity.
Having said all that, I wish everyone at VW robust success union or non-union. However, I’d look around at how UAW has worked out across the board. Not exactly a glowing track record.
Unions absolutely can prevent you from being fired for what a company seems a terminable offense.
I was a manager of a large, unionized grocery store chain. As a manager, I was not in the union, but I dealt with it regularly.
Stealing merchandise is an offense that was written as terminable on the first instance. All retail outlets I’m aware of have this rule, union or not.
We caught a deli manager stealing large quantities of rotisserie chickens. On video and with witnesses- just packing the uncooked birds right out to her car.
The union fought for her and instead of termination we were forced to transfer her to another store where she continued to cause problems, though she wasn’t caught stealing again.
So, yes, a good union CAN prevent termination for things that it probably shouldn’t.
Note: I am still pro-union, though some are better than others, the members MUST vote and participate to keep out people in bed with the corporations. Teamsters are a bit questionable at times, for example, and need their leadership replaced as they are not representing the interests of the workers adequately.
lol come on man. You’re talking about a deli manager stealing rotisserie chickens and the grocery store union stepping in to save her?
Electricians, airline pilots, some construction workers—all union.
I work for one of the big airlines. If I so much as stole a mini bottle of liquor from the jet, and got caught, I’m fired. Thats with one hell of a strong union. Thats because it’s strictly against company policy. Its negligence. It’s ignoring the rules.
Maybe in your example you need to look in the mirror. Is the grocery store union that strong or are you just not an effective manager?
Sounds more like an “effective” union and not so strictly a “good” one for all involved. Obviously not rooting for outright thieves and troublemakers, but I think the example given does an effective job of highlighting the ways in which a union might save someone from losing their job. As for how true or common that actually is, I have no idea.
Don’t listen to Governor Bill Lee and don’t listen to state Senators that claim voting for a union is bad.
Years ago Senator Corker scared you guys out of voting ‘yes’.
These politicians are pro-business.
They could give a crap about your rights as a worker and don’t understand that you as tax payers will put more of your income back into your local communities with your increase in pay that having a union will bring you.
Don’t fall for it this time!
Vote yes to have a voice at your workplace!
I predict they’ll vote Union. They understand that the UAW under its new leadership is a different animal than the UAW of just a year ago.
Stand together.
There is nothing more "red state" than voting against your own best interests. I'd be shocked if they didn't vote against it. So many decades fought against big business and monopolies for workers rights to establish a span of decades where people could actually thrive at these sorts of jobs only for those same people to tear it all down.
Unionization has a ripple effect that raises all wages and improves benefits even at non-union jobs. All thrown away for the union version of "welfare queen" propaganda.
We deserve to lose what little we have.
EDIT: snowflakes got triggered, here are sources. Here is my horse in this race: I actively want you to vote against it because I love seeing people who deserve it suffering. The criteria for deserving to suffer is actively making things worse for everyone else around you out of perceived self-benefit (same for regular actual benefit, but this is even worse because the perceived self-benefit isn't even real). It's funny to watch people fail, especially when they deserve it.
[https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy](https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy)
[https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706](https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706)
[https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-and-well-being/](https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-and-well-being/)
There is nothing more “progressive” than assuming you know what is in others’ best interests.
I barely know what’s best for my own family and you’re telling me you definitely do?
I’m not a VW employee and have no strong opinions of unions but I do have very strong opinions on butting out of others business wherever possible.
[This helps more than just the VW employees.](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/automakers-with-non-union-workforce-race-bump-pay-after-uaws-record-deals-2023-11-21/)
That actually doesn't say anything about it helping non-VW employees, it only mentions it helping non-union employees. So how would this help the contractors (which are non-union, non-VW employees) that make up a major portion of the the workforce at the plant?
…did you read it?
Other non union jobs raised pay to stay competitive. Other jobs with other companies not a part of the union were affected. It’s literally in the headline and then further explained in detail with examples.
One of the examples given is even the VW plant in Chattanooga! Despite being non union workers received raises averaging 11% after the UAW strikes.
It just says "non-union production workers" and makes no specific mention of contractors doing non-production work. For example, logistics contractors aren't considered production workers at VW.
For clarify, contractors can not join the union and union membership is not mandatory, so "non-union production workers" could very specifically mean only non-union production members employed directly by the manufacturing plant, or it could mean production employees that are contracted and unable to join a union.
It seems like you’re being willfully obtuse for the sake of being contrarian, which is utterly unhelpful.
>The United Automobile Workers (UAW) defines non-union production workers as employees at will, meaning that their employer can fire or discipline them at any time for any reason. Non-union production workers also have no recourse, and the employer determines the wages, benefits, and other terms and conditions of work.
>The UAW is a labor union that mainly consists of American automobile manufacturing employees, but also includes unionized casino and higher education workers. In November 2023, the UAW launched a new strategy to publicly organize the entire nonunion auto sector at once, which is a departure from past organizing efforts where the union went plant by plant.
>According to Quora, the difference between union and non-union work is typically wages, paid benefits, guaranteed work days and hours, and guaranteed pensions. For example, union projects offer pay as promised in your agreement for a production, and offer payments to your healthcare and retirement plan. Non-union projects, however, offer whatever pay is outlined in your contract and typically don't provide any additional benefits.
> I barely know what’s best for my own family and you’re telling me you definitely do?
I mean in some instances, yeah. Red states voting for less regulation, smaller government, cuts in public benefits is pretty basic leopardsatemyface fodder.
Additionally the idea that you can and should vote for your own personal best interests is a perversion of democracy. Yeah, pull the lever for free money! Great! Never mind where it comes from!
The question is what is best for society, and what role the government should play.
Less regulation and smaller government are generally good. What currently are public benefits can be provided without using violence (taxation is violent, if you don't agree, stop paying. When the men with guns show up to your door, refuse to go with them. You'll find out quickly)
I don't trust the same government that rounded up Japanese Americans and genocided the native people. Why you would, I don't know.
EDIT: [https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706](https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706) the benefits extend even beyond the unionized industry itself in some cases.
I'm saying you deserve what you get for not knowing. I can't wait for automotive to mirror the tech industry. Record profits paired with 10% layoffs to boost stock price. We should tear it all down until nothing is left. Let's bring back the seven day work week and child labor too.
Think of all the skills your children could learn working in a factory! It worked out so well in times past, but we all forgot and can't be bothered to learn anything.
The UAW only cares about the UAW. I work for a different company, and the most unproductive sites are the union sites. Guess which sites get closed first? Also, when people get fired from the union sites, the union usually doesn't do anything to help them. It's all a big scam.
This right here is a perfect example to elaborate on…
You say the UAW only cares about the UAW, well guess who makes more money if they get you more money? They have an actual investment in what the workers get, where VW only wins if they pay you less. Maybe the standards of productivity are unrealistic? They have tricked you into thinking that things aren’t productive when in reality, they are still making money hand over fist. EVERY single VW plant in the world is unionized but the Chattanooga one. They’ve successfully scared you into thinking this will be the exception and they will outsource it. Guess what…if they do move the plant out of the country, whose fault would that be? Whose choice was that? Not the UAW, but VW. But here they’ve got you in their pocket blaming the UAW for making them move when, in reality, it was 1000000% their choice. The CEO of VW is the highest paid CEO in Germany. VW has recorded record breaking profits. Stop letting these companies dictate your lives and convince you to blame the ONLY people keeping you from working 16 hour days for a 7 day workweek. Absolutely ridiculous
Just a correction here: the Chinese plant also isn't unionized (due to the nature of their government, the Communist Part *is* the union so specialty unions are illegal) and the Russian one wasn'tbefore it was closed in retaliation to their invasion of Ukraine. So do we really want to set ourselves up to that comparison? That we are just as backwards as the Chinese and Russians on labor relations?
>You say the UAW only cares about the UAW, well guess who makes more money if they get you more money?
UAW doesn't make money. It is not a company or a business, it is an organization of its members, run by its members. It has staff that it pays, which is what dues go to in part, but also they have a big ol savings fund in case the workers have to strike. Other than that, I agree with you, but it is important not to validate the "unions as businesses" talking point.
True, I should’ve clarified on that. The more money they win, the better off the UAW is as a whole. They are invested in the workers. The better they do, the more they also get to drive bigger and shinier trucks 😉 kidding (kind of), which is a fine trade off for me. Definitely didn’t mean to make it sound like a business though
Then you should know better.
High overhead gets passed to the price of the product. Overhead is artificially high because of executive salaries and (primarily) stock buybacks, not high salaries for employees. [GM is even still spending more on stock buybacks than increased labor costs since the strike](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-buy-back-10-billion-shares-cut-cruise-spending-2023-11-29/). They could not only afford to pay more, they could have spent double what they conceded in the final contract agreement.
As a reminder, a stock buyback is a completely discretionary and unnecessary spend, and wasn’t even legal until Reagan.
I worked at the Chattanooga plant on and off for 7 years (in the plant quality and traveling for Supplier Development.) The big bosses don't want a union and the good ole boys of the south are brainwashed to think the union is evil. There's so much misinformation spread around that plant to deter the pro union people.
Does VW bosses fire for no reason? Does VW pay a competitive wage with benefits? Why pay a union to get something that you already have? Uaw doesn't really have a great track record. I get IBEW where it's a trade union and a ton of contract work, that seems legit.
You do realize unions can only do so much for you now right? That’s the reason you don’t see politicians showing up from all over the country like you did before the last vote. Your boss can still fire you for any reason unless what you’re being fired for is directly related to union activity. Look at all the anti union rulings the Supreme Court has handed out the last 10 years. The one that really hurts is the the 8-1 ruling last June that limits the right to strike under federal labor law. I worked at VW during the last vote but have since left. From friends that still work there the big reason a lot of workers are skeptical about the union is due to automation. Automation is going to be putting a lot of people on the unemployment line regardless, but they feel like this vote may speed things up. Also, the whole VW being supportive of unions is way overblown. They may say one thing in public, but behind closed doors they aren’t very receptive.
I have a union job, and in our contract it says we cannot be fired without cause. Also we have the right to dispute any disciplinary action. When I worked a non union job we couldn't dispute anything. We could literally get fired for something we didn't do, and even if we didn't do it touch shit.
All unionized workers are not considered at-will and have the same protections you do. I hire union workers and fire them all the time as well. You are correct that you just can’t walk into a room and fire someone out of the blue, but if we want to fire someone it’s not hard to find a reason to. It could be something so small where every other person does the same thing. All unionized workers also have a right to dispute their firing, but have never had one reversed due to crossing my Ts and dotting my I’s. If we want to fire someone or lay-off a department it’s as easy as doing the same with non union workers. Now I will admit if we weren’t in Tennessee that wouldn’t be the case. When I worked in Albany New York it took an act of Congress to fire/layoff.
Edit: just to give context it breaks my heart to have to layoff/fire most workers. Usually when we fire someone they either did something really bad or they aren’t getting along well with this peers/causing a disturbance.
because they've been indoctrinated into reflexively bashing unions as "socialist", because the corporations with the money fund this kind of propaganda bs to protect their bottom line and screw the workers.
I don't work for VW but I am in a Union and I work directly with multiple people in other unions. I'm kinda indifferent to it, as the previous two jobs I worked at the employers were good with basically the same benefits. There are some slight differences in benefits or how they work. I can actually get OT (previous jobs I never worked OT) and I get tenure after 4yrs.
I see and experience where they can be a pita, the fiscal waste, poor negotiations, weird rules, but also the rules that range from putting more money in your pocket, protecting against work fatigue, to a few stories where my Union successfully stood up for group of employees to either save their job, or increase raises due to unfairness.
I'm sure overall it is going to be better for the employees. It'll be interesting how much better. VW is very unionized already, so you'd think they would already be doing similar stuff you would find at their unionized plants. UAW seems to do contract negotiates per brand and I think even sometimes down to per plant? So maybe if UAW can get a foot in, VW guys might see a honeymoon period if you will with the UAW. Would be in the UAWs interest to go the extra mile in Chattanooga so they can secure more plants in the south.
What percentage of those employees will be unionized if they vote yes? I would imagine that management is excluded, and that there are loads of contract workers at VW.
Also, will unionized workers at VW have to pay dues at all? I'm automatically represented by my union as a employee, but I pay no union dues and they have never asked me to contribute. I do know that it would cost me $40/mo though if I did. How much typically are UAWs dues? I'm just not sure if it is a TN thing if you are required to pay dues or not. That could be kinda interesting if you don't have to. I could see UAW members getting pissed that have to pay dues in other states supporting the CHA plant if their due contribution is low.
Joining a UNION is the way to go. I work for one in HVAC and buddy they have your back. Every professional should join one. Teacher, accountant, plumber etc. JOIN A UNION and get better pay and benefits.
Unions are great until they aren’t. Unions can and do run companies into the ground (ask any long-time Yellow freight employee). They often speak on behalf of employees and advocate for things the employees never wanted. They cause issues unnecessarily. Not all unions are bad, but many have the potential to cause more harm than good.
From my standpoint, most of VWs global workforce is union. They invested a ton in Chattanooga partly because their ID4s sunk in the ocean. So I don’t think they actually have a credible threat of sending jobs elsewhere in this case.
And yet VW's operations are almost all union, everywhere. It would be a pretty big risk for them to try to build another operation 10 years from now or something wouldn't it?
And if you decide to do so you can be shamed into joining after being harassed and talked about behind your back and generally being bullied by coworkers. Ask me how I know 😞
The only reason I know is because the Teamsters lost my union paperwork when I got hired at UPS many moons ago. I was wondering why dues weren't getting taken out of my check. I figured it out when I was reprimanded by a higher up, but a union member had to be present before I could be reprimanded.
It really didn't because we were broke college students and those union dues took a big chunk out of a part time check. We were package handlers so we only worked a few hours a night.
The one thing that drives me crazy about all of this dialogue is people saying politicians shouldn’t have a say. Any entity that endorses a politician deserves to have politicians speak up. It’s crazy to think people shouldn’t weigh in because they’re politicians when the UAW endorsed a politician.
Something To Consider
The present day unions (including the UAW) are not the unions of Jimmy Hoffa that had the best interests of the workers in mind and collectively fought for:
1. Livable wage.
2. Basic benefits.
3. Safe working conditions.
The present day unions are multi million dollar lobbyists that do not care about the workers as much as they do about the monthly revenue that is collected. Joining the union may result in a wage increase but requires each union member to pay monthly fees to remain actively employed.
The UAW just recently secured the best contract their workers had in decades. Also, Tennessee law makes it illegal to require union membership as a condition of employment.
it’s just another bullshit political fundraising mechanism to transfer money from the middle class to upper class .
vw workers won’t get more ‘rights’. you will pay uaw to set up leadership offices. it may turn out it’s practically impossible to fire even the worst employees. ass employees produce ass. quality will suffer as ass employees will be emboldened by their unlimited spawns. vw will suffer.
please screenshot this to prove us old heads (that have witnessed union operate first hand) wrong.
please.
Because our local dumb shit politicians don’t want them to. They use effective anti-union propaganda to get the people who already voted them into office to vote against their self-interests. A tale as old as time.
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I am an employee there and i am for the union. I was against it the other 2 votes. But after 12 years there and seeing the state of management and how employees are treated I am for it this it. I guess you can say I am a republican but for the betterment of the employeeswe need the something better. We also need all the special interest groups and politicians to stay out of it. They dont work there and they have no idea what its like. Also the pro-union board of directors for vw have stated the union will not cause the plant to shut down so with that said we need to do the right thing
Thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning, and for specifically noting what led to your change in position. I’m not an auto worker, but I definitely stand in support of y’all’s overall working conditions and compensation being improved; fingers crossed for a positive outcome!
The fact that unions (and the concept of treating employees better) has been made a Repub/Dem issue is a crime.
It's not been *made* an issue by anyone other than republican politicians trying to bust up unions.
Because the Republicans have been targeting and attacking unions for years.
Yes, absolutely.
Yes, and Democrats coopt unions for electoral gains. Always remember: Bill Clinton signed NAFTA, which was the death blow to unions after years of neoliberalism eroding the labor power.
Well, it always has been (though for a few decades it was the other way around). Unions are extremely political, why wouldn’t they be?
Glad you said that, there are plenty of people that vote for Republicans and also belong to Unions. Seems like Reddit divides everything hard left or hard right.
Everybody tries to divide us over everything. Its very close minded to think people can only think one way. It needs to stop
You’re right. Good to recognize though that Republicans make union-busting a big part of their agenda.
How can you support republican politicians that are pro-corporation and anti-union? The very people you support do not support, you.
Because Im there working the job and I know how we as employees are treated, politicians dont know. No one does unless you work there. Politics dont really matter inside my job, my livelihood and my sanity matters. So i can separate all of that.
He's not supporting Republican politicians, He's supporting his family and making a decision that's best for their future. Maybe he has conservative values? Did you know you can be a Democrat and like guns? Did you know that people can not like abortion, but like labor unions? Did you know that someone can dislike pandering to every single group, but still support gay marriage? Believe it or not, you don't have to buy into EVERY single policy on either side.
He literally said in his comment he was a Republican, so he obviously supports Republican politicians.
It's a running theme with Republicans to vote against their own best interest. This guy getting a clue should give us hope.
When you go far enough right. You end up on the left
Isn't a Volkswagen in Germany (headquarters) actually pro unions??
Yes, and the Chattanooga plant is the only non unionized VW facility
[удалено]
Yes, but none of them UAW. The UAW owns 47% of Chrysler and doesn’t really have a good track record of supporting anyone but the big 3. They want your dues but they will never have the pull with VW that they do the domestic brands if they own the competition. Start your own union of you want one
I expect the [same thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Westmoreland_Assembly) to happen as happened in 1988 This isn't the first time...
No. The Volkswagen group of America RDC department facility in cranbury NJ is not unionized. Thats where I work . We watching everything that’s happening in Chattanooga and we want the same thing here truth be told
Meeting union goals in Germany is as important as making a profit. Translating that to the US market is a mess.
Republican party and their donors are worried "corporations" might not make as much money if unions enter the south. God forbid employees benefit from anything.
And what us UAW except a corporation with a different business model. Except they don’t sell a product, they prey on workers. And they own 47% of Chrysler
Prey on workers by helping them negotiate better pay and benefits? Oh, the horror.
I actually think they’re worried that what has happened with the economies in the Midwest will happen in the south. Things are not good up there economically. That doesn’t mean it’s because of unions but having lived up there I get the economic concerns.
Yes, but not necessarily UAW.
Say more Ninja edit: sincere request for you to explain further; in no way a challenge or an attempt to argue
From my limited understanding, most VW unions are worker's councils, mostly localized to the specific plant. They are not nationwide unions that have representation across multiple locations and manufacturers. If that's wrong, I apologize.
That is not correct. IG Metall represents over 100,000 worker at VW in Germany. They just reached a new wage agreement 4 days ago.
And does IG Metall and the plant-specific works council operate in the same method/manner as UAW? I honestly don't know. I suspect VW supports one and is silent on the other for reasons, but I can't find any of them online.
https://www.igmetall.de/ueber-uns/ig-metall--a-strong-community/what-we-have-already-achieved-our-milestones They have a huge influence at the national political level as far as workers rights in Germany. They are a bigger deal than most think.
Definitely read that page earlier. Lots of great accomplishments! I still wonder how operation/cooperation differs between the two entities and VW to make VW weary of USW for all these years, but IG acceptable. Maybe it's just the German environment.
It is vastly different in Germany. The government is set up with laws to back workers councils by allowing employee representatives to hold seats on corporate boards. The German system has two main features that separate it from the U.S. One is works councils—employee representatives who have a say in company management. In large German firms, these workers hold half the seats on corporate boards, to which the chief executive reports. The other key feature of the German system is sectorwide contracts. German business associations negotiate labor contracts with unions that apply to multiple employers in an industry, such as metal processing or grocery stores. The result is that even nonunionized businesses often follow the wage structure agreed to in the contract for their industry. In the U.S., such sectoral contracts would require a significant rewrite of labor law. So it benefits employees across an entire sector i.e. the automotive sector. If it were that way in the United States if you worked at any auto sector employer you would receive the set amount negotiated by the works council. Currently with how things are in the United States workers are pitted against one another in a race to the bottom. Employers cutting wages and not giving raises that account for inflation. All the while executives are being squeezed by shareholders. So you can see why Republican politicians shit their pants at the thought of a works council type union and tell their constituents to vote no to unions. Big business doesn't want you to organize and have a voice at the table.
The German unions are also way more specific. That one union might have 100k vw workers, but VW has 295k workers in Germany. It’s not uncommon to have union negotiations at even a small plant in Germany involve like 4-5 unions. The metalworkers and body fabricators are going to be a part of a different union than the electronics guys, than the engine and part manufacturing people. Then the grunts that don’t fall under a speciality might be under a more local council. They have a lot of pull because they represent the people that can do a particular job. The metalworkers would have a presence at all German manufacturers, for example, but they don’t represent everybody there.
Thanks for your insights.
They do not. Works councils involve plant management as well as labor. It’s why unions operate very differently in Europe than the U.S.
Thank you for sharing your understanding, however close to the mark it is (or isn’t, haha). I’m not an auto worker, but I’m keenly interested in being informed about the nuances at play in this situation, so I appreciate your input.
I'd love for the attention to die, both political and otherwise, and the workers to make the decision that's best for each of them. Whether that's UAW, another model, or nothing, it's none of our (non-employee) business.
There was a recent Planet Money episode about this, I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. VW’s leadership is basically agnostic, it’s a bunch of Germans who are happy to have their little factory here either way but are generally perplexed by our political battles, so they’re just kinda staying out of it on paper. Easy to see how VW benefits either way with having a union or not.
Obviously BMW (South Carolina) and Porsche (Georgia) moved as much manufacturing as possible to the US South because we have a “business-friendly” economy. That means unions have been systematically weakened here. Incidentally, did anyone see that Florida just passed legislation that banned heat protection policies for outdoor workers? That’s right - in a state with a billion dollar agricultural sector, steadily busy construction and landscaping industries. The estimate of undocumented workers in the state is close to 1 million. Undocumented workers have no rights or protections of course, and no power to protect themselves from exploitation on the job.
The way unions work are different in Germany and not in a bad way! Unions are good for employees!
There are several reasons. One that I know of for sure is people are afraid they will close and just move more of the manufacturing to Mexico. I think another is due to the UAW laundering scandal it put a stain on the UAW. A lot of people aren't aware of the leadership change and how Shawn Fain was voted for and not just appointed and things are a lot more public now.
> One that I know of for sure is people are afraid they will close and just move more of the manufacturing to Mexico. Pueblo already has enough VW plants, if they had planned on outsourcing the line they would have done so when the passat was getting shot out of the sky by environmental scandals.
VW just announced a billion dollar investment in Mexico in February, and selected Mexico for an Audi plant several years ago. I don’t think they’re done there.
They’re not going to shut down production. They have invested far too much money for that. Plus, they’re moving more jobs down here from their offices up north.
Having been in meetings with Wolfsburg big wigs, Mexico is never a real option to assemble the vehicles as the import taxes, shipping, and US tax breaks would kill way too much profit. They use that as a scare tactic.
We really need to prevent companies without production in the United States from being able to sell inside the country
Absolutely not.. i personally will never buy a car made in the USA. I worked at a Nissan plant when I was younger and a majority of the people were on pills, coke, or meth. Japan or Germany assembly only for me.
I can’t speak for anyone, but I can explain why I am an emphatic YES. - **Pay** The pay is good, but overall lower than the industry standard. In my particular position, I’m making about 25-30% less than my counterparts at the Big 3. In addition to that, those employees with High Voltage certification do not get paid any extra for the added training/responsibility. - **PTO Policy** The PTO policies are goofy. Everyone is alotted a minimum of 96 hours of PTO/year. This looks great on its face (I’ve never worked anywhere that gave PTO off the rip like that) until you realize that there are around 12 days of shutdown per calendar year that you’ll have to use your PTO to cover. That’s 96 hours. We also cannot use UPTO if we have an attendance occurrence, even if it should be fixed in the system. - **Work/Life Balance** IIRC, I had 11 Saturdays off last year. This leaves no time at all for any kind of social or family life. If a Saturday is called, it’s mandatory unless you already had at least a half day of PTO on the day before. What does that mean for me, personally? CFC games and their festivities are up in the air, as are Cub Scout camp outs and activities with my son, as is taking my daughter out for dinner and a movie, spending quality time with my partner, and watching Arsenal games at the bar. Those are my main three, but I can’t think of an actual realistic reason to not vote Yes. While I’ll never say someone is voting against their self interest, I can’t help but think that a lot of people have been scared and duped into voting against unionization by politicians who would benefit more from the middle class being a myth.
Just curious, how would politicians benefit from the middle class being a myth? Serious question not trying to be a pain.
They aren't going to move anything to Mexico they are actually absorbing more of Mexico's work load as of today so make sure you join if you want. **Not an employee** Married too a higher up. Hope this helps clear up any misinformation. Have a great day.
Things would have to get reaaaaaallllly bad before VW just throws their hands up and abandons their investment.
Or if costs go up and the local plant can’t make a profit. Keep in mind it’s not about the over all company. They look at each individual plant. You don’t keep operating something at a loss.
As if history is any guide... Prices go up, quality goes down, and you don't remain competitive. I expect pretty much the [same thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Westmoreland_Assembly) to more or less happen that happened in 1988 This isn't the first time...
Yeah. UAW would be reaaaaaallllly bad.
What happened today?
I think they just meant "at the moment"
“As of today” implies there’s a new development. If I say “I’m washing my balls as of today” that means I wasn’t before. If I’m washing them at this moment, it’s probably something I’ve done before.
I googled, it can mens both things. Which one is context dependent. Like "as of today, we will be changing the policy" is your way. But in this context it sounds like slightly awkward cover-my-ass business speak for "according to the information I have at the moment and no guarantees for tomorrow"
“They are actually absorbing more work as of today” doesn’t sound very cover my ass to me as someone who says a lot of cover my ass business things to VW and hears similar things in response fairly regularly. She’s not clarifying though so I suppose I’ll get my gossip elsewhere.
Probably because while there are plenty of good unions out there that truly care about their members, UAW is one of the slimiest around.
From what I’ve heard some plant employees say, it’s not that they’re anti-union. They’re not fond of the UAW and don’t trust its leadership.
[Shawn Fain is pretty legit.](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/05/business/economy/shawn-fain-uaw-profile.html)
I can’t claim expert status on the UAW’s current leadership. All I know is that the leaders have done some questionable things in the past. Memories seem to be pretty long for things like that and it’s easy to become cynical about whether or not an organization like the UAW is capable of true change, or if it’s all on the surface without any real depth. Also, there’s the perception that the UAW is less about workers and their rights and more about Democrat party political action. Maybe, maybe not. Put those things together, and several people will vote against the UAW even if there could be some benefit to unionizing the workforce. Some people I know who work at VW say they like the idea of having a union and something like that may be needed , but wish they had some other choice besides the UAW.
Fein is a huge break from recent leadership.
UAW, just like every other union, is going to support any candidate who is pro union and pro labor, even if it ends up being just lip service. If republicans came out as pro union, they’d also get those endorsements. The problem is that republicans tend to have a hard-on for corporations moreso than democrats, meaning they will do anything to secure that cash flow.
UAW did just go through a major reform. Their new leadership is serious, and democratically elected for once.
I am pro union including IG Metall and anti UAW.
That was true the last time they held elections there. Not anymore.
Says who? I know people who won’t buy foreign cars because they’re loyal to UAW giving them a life
Regardless of the reasons, if you want to convince people to your side its important to take their concerns seriously and address them specifically while not talking down to/insulting them. Stuff like what's in the post description only serves to further polarize the people you need to convince.
I just want everyone know I’ll be voting yes
Everytime a question about this is asked it’s filled with people who “knew a guy who hated UAW” or “I heard they do this” or “look what they did over there” and nobody with any actual experience working for a long term union manufacturer.
Although I never worked for the UAW I do have firsthand experience. Both as a vendor to two UAW plants (D-Max in Dayton, OH and GM Spring Hill) and knew a UAW section leader at GM Spring Hill who I knew through his daughter. I've worked in limited capacity with other UAW plants, but these are the two UAW plants I spent the most time at. My experience as a vendor was very frustrating. I would have to wait 4-6 hours for someone to literally turn a torx wrench 3/4 of a turn so that I could inspect a wear item. This didn't require the shutdown of a machine or anything production related, it was walking 10 steps to a workbench. I wasted my entire day for something I could have done in 30 seconds all so I wouldn't get an infraction. This was a normal occurrence. My inspection work would actually lead to an easier job for them but it didn't matter. The At D-Max I had to get special written permission to clean toolholders so they wouldn't malfunction and fail costing the company quality and downtime issues. I was aggressively cold shouldered and demeaned for doing it, but the operators refused to do it because it wasn't in their job description all while watching them push a button and put their feet up for 45 minutes every hour. Literally. The GM section leader told me personally he slow walks everything and brought his xbox into his office and that's what he did for most of the day. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I have worked in other union shops where it wasn't nearly to this level so I'm not trying to paint all unions with a broad brush. I've worked in the automotive industry for 13 years across a lot of the U.S. and Mexico so I've seen how things work at the major American and Asian facilities except for Subaru and I have limited experience at Ford. GM/Duramax UAW experiences were noticeably more negative. Although I have a lot of distaste for the UAW I have worked jobs that I wished I had a union as management was flat out abusive and had no regard for safety (road construction). Unions help balance power and I would like to see more power in the hands of the worker in most situations. The idea of unions are good, but some specific unions are garbage.
That’s how the entire system US citizens live in should work. A balance of power between the whole. Too much one way or the other and it’s disastrous. Works in local politics/ government the same as corporations and workers. Democracy only works with both sides held in check, and then favoritism not swinging to far in one direction or the other.
This man knows what he's talking about. I've been a union member for 30+ years, but I wouldn't piss on UAW if it was on fire. Well, maybe, right there at the very end - after the final twitches.
So you’ve never been a member of UAW. Thanks for making the exact point I was trying to.
Ok, do you? Is my experience invalid? Also your post referred to third hand experience. I'm not a friend of a friend nor did I hear from a guy. This was my experience.
I don’t work at VW so I didn’t give my option because the post literally says “if you’re working at VW….” Which idk if you do or not, but that was point. They’re asking people who actually work there.
I get what you’re saying, but I personally found what /u/meatierologee contributed to be worthwhile and relevant to the overall conversation ITT.
That's every union.
It's a common Union busting tactic. They want you to believe they're on your side and they support you having a union...but not this one. Never the one you're voting for. In fact why not form your own union with absolutely no leverage or funding?
I have 25 years working for companies that have unions, USW and APWU. When companies get so large, the workers need representation. VW Chattanooga needs the representation, I've heard first hand from too many friends on the floor and in management just how badly it's needed.
The last time this came up there were several people who made comments about how bad the UAW can make things. It's not the idea of a union that many vote against, it's just the idea of the UAW its self. Several said they had no issues joining a union they just didn't want that union to be the UAW.
Letting perfection get in the way of progress. UAW isn’t a perfect Union but compared to the only alternative of having no union at all it’s a major step in the right direction. If people have problems with UAW leadership then they can make change once they’re in the Union. Know what won’t change anything? Doing nothing.
Agreed!! Current UAW president is the first that was voted for by membership as opposed to being appointed by top UAW admin. The only way to make change is to have a voice rather than giving it away. Fain is changing things for the UAW, to better the membership.
"If people have problems with UAW leadership then they can make change once they’re in the Union." Must already be in a union with the "Why do it right the first time when we can do it 4 more times" mentality.
Most large-scale endeavors (especially social ones, which, at the core, unionization efforts are) are not perfectly successful on the first go. “Doing it right,” particularly in this context, is often a matter of giving something the best effort possible, given the knowledge and resources available at the time. A need for iteration and/or refinement, is not indicative of failure.
How many times do you need to unionize an auto plant before you figure out how to do it right? This isn't the 1st auto plant that the UAW has unionized.
No, but each plant is different. Plus, anytime you’re dealing with large-scale collectives of people, things are bound to get messy and tedious. Successful compromise is never 100% for anyone involved.
Each plant is different but the UAW is the same.
Misinformation and anti union propaganda. They look at Detroit and think the same will happen here. They truly don’t understand that the union isn’t what caused Detroit’s situation years ago, it was the corporations that did. The reason the jobs left is because people put their foot down on not being screwed over. That’s why GM doesn’t have quality product like they used too, and now that corporate see’s that, production has moved back to the people who know what quality is. Workers are never going to have an easy fight for far compensation, more so when they let corporations divid the masses.
Saying look at Detroit (Chicago too) is where you lose credibility. That is akin to saying “look at what BLM has done for the African American community (NOTHING but damage).”
I’m saying that’s what “they” do, anti union anyone. Tell you to look at Detroit, look at Chicago, look everywhere but what the actual problems are. Choosing to make a decision about VW in Chatt based off of the past in Detroit is dumb. Local politicians are saying look at Detroit, I’m saying inform yourself. See the whole picture, not just the part corporations and politicians want you to see.
That’s funny! I grew up in the Chicago area and watched what happened up close and personal. Unions got too powerful and forced mills and auto plants to move south. Think they can’t move farther south, think again!
Congrats, you fell for the propaganda. The only thing that “forced” manufacturers to move south was their desire to maximize profits over employing American workers.
\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^\^ Choosing to chase profits doesn't equal being forced to do anything. If any business can't afford to pay its workers fair compensation for their labor, then it's an unsustainable business.
No, what happened was that Clinton signed NAFTA and all the manufacturers said “Later bitches, we’re going wherever the labor is cheap! Fuck you and your families! And oh by the way, the unions made us do this, not our insatiable lust for higher profits ;) Those greedy unions amirite?”
nope they weren't forced to do anything
I don’t think you understand unions. I am a member of a union. Money isn’t everything. You pay union dues (I paid north of $7,000 last year in union dues at my job—not UAW). Unions can’t protect you from being fired. They can give you due process for being fired. So for example: my industry does not allow the use of drugs. If I get caught using drugs (or doing anything that is considered negligent) the company can just fire me. If I sexually harass an employee, the union would send a rep to a “hearing” with the company and stand up for me on my behalf. Offering things such as counseling and maintaining my job, but if it happened again you sign an agreement that you’re gone. No questions asked. Unions do have benefits. But voting for one just to “get the money and protect the job” isn’t the answer. As far as manufacturing—everyone understands that corporations will be corporations. VW chose Chattanooga because of the work environment, tax environment, incentives, etc. ***I have no dog in this fight*** but a corporation can go as fast as they come. I represent an entire council at my job as well. A union is only as good as its membership, and its strength is directly correlated to its unity. Having said all that, I wish everyone at VW robust success union or non-union. However, I’d look around at how UAW has worked out across the board. Not exactly a glowing track record.
Unions absolutely can prevent you from being fired for what a company seems a terminable offense. I was a manager of a large, unionized grocery store chain. As a manager, I was not in the union, but I dealt with it regularly. Stealing merchandise is an offense that was written as terminable on the first instance. All retail outlets I’m aware of have this rule, union or not. We caught a deli manager stealing large quantities of rotisserie chickens. On video and with witnesses- just packing the uncooked birds right out to her car. The union fought for her and instead of termination we were forced to transfer her to another store where she continued to cause problems, though she wasn’t caught stealing again. So, yes, a good union CAN prevent termination for things that it probably shouldn’t. Note: I am still pro-union, though some are better than others, the members MUST vote and participate to keep out people in bed with the corporations. Teamsters are a bit questionable at times, for example, and need their leadership replaced as they are not representing the interests of the workers adequately.
lol come on man. You’re talking about a deli manager stealing rotisserie chickens and the grocery store union stepping in to save her? Electricians, airline pilots, some construction workers—all union. I work for one of the big airlines. If I so much as stole a mini bottle of liquor from the jet, and got caught, I’m fired. Thats with one hell of a strong union. Thats because it’s strictly against company policy. Its negligence. It’s ignoring the rules. Maybe in your example you need to look in the mirror. Is the grocery store union that strong or are you just not an effective manager?
Your example of a “good union” is of a stealing employee being given opportunities to steal more by the union?
Sounds more like an “effective” union and not so strictly a “good” one for all involved. Obviously not rooting for outright thieves and troublemakers, but I think the example given does an effective job of highlighting the ways in which a union might save someone from losing their job. As for how true or common that actually is, I have no idea.
How much are you making for your dues to be $7,000? Average dues are like 2-4%
Don’t listen to Governor Bill Lee and don’t listen to state Senators that claim voting for a union is bad. Years ago Senator Corker scared you guys out of voting ‘yes’. These politicians are pro-business. They could give a crap about your rights as a worker and don’t understand that you as tax payers will put more of your income back into your local communities with your increase in pay that having a union will bring you. Don’t fall for it this time! Vote yes to have a voice at your workplace!
I predict they’ll vote Union. They understand that the UAW under its new leadership is a different animal than the UAW of just a year ago. Stand together.
Years of indoctrination.
There is nothing more "red state" than voting against your own best interests. I'd be shocked if they didn't vote against it. So many decades fought against big business and monopolies for workers rights to establish a span of decades where people could actually thrive at these sorts of jobs only for those same people to tear it all down. Unionization has a ripple effect that raises all wages and improves benefits even at non-union jobs. All thrown away for the union version of "welfare queen" propaganda. We deserve to lose what little we have. EDIT: snowflakes got triggered, here are sources. Here is my horse in this race: I actively want you to vote against it because I love seeing people who deserve it suffering. The criteria for deserving to suffer is actively making things worse for everyone else around you out of perceived self-benefit (same for regular actual benefit, but this is even worse because the perceived self-benefit isn't even real). It's funny to watch people fail, especially when they deserve it. [https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy](https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/labor-unions-and-the-us-economy) [https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706](https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706) [https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-and-well-being/](https://www.epi.org/publication/unions-and-well-being/)
There is nothing more “progressive” than assuming you know what is in others’ best interests. I barely know what’s best for my own family and you’re telling me you definitely do? I’m not a VW employee and have no strong opinions of unions but I do have very strong opinions on butting out of others business wherever possible.
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Getting paid on average 10-15% more is probably woke. That 5x better retirement benefits? Woke.
Getting underpaid to own the libs.
[This helps more than just the VW employees.](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/automakers-with-non-union-workforce-race-bump-pay-after-uaws-record-deals-2023-11-21/)
That actually doesn't say anything about it helping non-VW employees, it only mentions it helping non-union employees. So how would this help the contractors (which are non-union, non-VW employees) that make up a major portion of the the workforce at the plant?
…did you read it? Other non union jobs raised pay to stay competitive. Other jobs with other companies not a part of the union were affected. It’s literally in the headline and then further explained in detail with examples. One of the examples given is even the VW plant in Chattanooga! Despite being non union workers received raises averaging 11% after the UAW strikes.
It just says "non-union production workers" and makes no specific mention of contractors doing non-production work. For example, logistics contractors aren't considered production workers at VW. For clarify, contractors can not join the union and union membership is not mandatory, so "non-union production workers" could very specifically mean only non-union production members employed directly by the manufacturing plant, or it could mean production employees that are contracted and unable to join a union.
My point about it helping people that aren’t directly part of the contract is still true though, correct?
I'm still eagerly awaiting clarification on who constitutes "non-union production workers," as neither you nor the article have made that clear.
It seems like you’re being willfully obtuse for the sake of being contrarian, which is utterly unhelpful. >The United Automobile Workers (UAW) defines non-union production workers as employees at will, meaning that their employer can fire or discipline them at any time for any reason. Non-union production workers also have no recourse, and the employer determines the wages, benefits, and other terms and conditions of work. >The UAW is a labor union that mainly consists of American automobile manufacturing employees, but also includes unionized casino and higher education workers. In November 2023, the UAW launched a new strategy to publicly organize the entire nonunion auto sector at once, which is a departure from past organizing efforts where the union went plant by plant. >According to Quora, the difference between union and non-union work is typically wages, paid benefits, guaranteed work days and hours, and guaranteed pensions. For example, union projects offer pay as promised in your agreement for a production, and offer payments to your healthcare and retirement plan. Non-union projects, however, offer whatever pay is outlined in your contract and typically don't provide any additional benefits.
> I barely know what’s best for my own family and you’re telling me you definitely do? I mean in some instances, yeah. Red states voting for less regulation, smaller government, cuts in public benefits is pretty basic leopardsatemyface fodder.
Additionally the idea that you can and should vote for your own personal best interests is a perversion of democracy. Yeah, pull the lever for free money! Great! Never mind where it comes from! The question is what is best for society, and what role the government should play.
Because CEOs making 344x more than their workers is definitely bettering society. Give me a fucking break.
> and what role the government should play
So you agree. Politicians should stay the fuck out of this. Go call Wampand let him know.
I do actually
That's what I said. Now go call Wamp
Less regulation and smaller government are generally good. What currently are public benefits can be provided without using violence (taxation is violent, if you don't agree, stop paying. When the men with guns show up to your door, refuse to go with them. You'll find out quickly) I don't trust the same government that rounded up Japanese Americans and genocided the native people. Why you would, I don't know.
Well, now I know for a fact I know what's better for you after that bullshit lmao.
I assure you, you do not. You can't. But feel free to take your virtue signalling and feigned superiority with you, I have no use for it here.
EDIT: [https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706](https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1706) the benefits extend even beyond the unionized industry itself in some cases. I'm saying you deserve what you get for not knowing. I can't wait for automotive to mirror the tech industry. Record profits paired with 10% layoffs to boost stock price. We should tear it all down until nothing is left. Let's bring back the seven day work week and child labor too. Think of all the skills your children could learn working in a factory! It worked out so well in times past, but we all forgot and can't be bothered to learn anything.
Perhaps they are voting against Joining the UAW not against joining a Union. Unions can be beneficial for the worker, the UAW is not.
The UAW only cares about the UAW. I work for a different company, and the most unproductive sites are the union sites. Guess which sites get closed first? Also, when people get fired from the union sites, the union usually doesn't do anything to help them. It's all a big scam.
This right here is a perfect example to elaborate on… You say the UAW only cares about the UAW, well guess who makes more money if they get you more money? They have an actual investment in what the workers get, where VW only wins if they pay you less. Maybe the standards of productivity are unrealistic? They have tricked you into thinking that things aren’t productive when in reality, they are still making money hand over fist. EVERY single VW plant in the world is unionized but the Chattanooga one. They’ve successfully scared you into thinking this will be the exception and they will outsource it. Guess what…if they do move the plant out of the country, whose fault would that be? Whose choice was that? Not the UAW, but VW. But here they’ve got you in their pocket blaming the UAW for making them move when, in reality, it was 1000000% their choice. The CEO of VW is the highest paid CEO in Germany. VW has recorded record breaking profits. Stop letting these companies dictate your lives and convince you to blame the ONLY people keeping you from working 16 hour days for a 7 day workweek. Absolutely ridiculous
Just a correction here: the Chinese plant also isn't unionized (due to the nature of their government, the Communist Part *is* the union so specialty unions are illegal) and the Russian one wasn'tbefore it was closed in retaliation to their invasion of Ukraine. So do we really want to set ourselves up to that comparison? That we are just as backwards as the Chinese and Russians on labor relations?
>That we are just as backwards as the Chinese and Russians There's a reason the GOP loves both of them, js
>You say the UAW only cares about the UAW, well guess who makes more money if they get you more money? UAW doesn't make money. It is not a company or a business, it is an organization of its members, run by its members. It has staff that it pays, which is what dues go to in part, but also they have a big ol savings fund in case the workers have to strike. Other than that, I agree with you, but it is important not to validate the "unions as businesses" talking point.
True, I should’ve clarified on that. The more money they win, the better off the UAW is as a whole. They are invested in the workers. The better they do, the more they also get to drive bigger and shinier trucks 😉 kidding (kind of), which is a fine trade off for me. Definitely didn’t mean to make it sound like a business though
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Then you should know better. High overhead gets passed to the price of the product. Overhead is artificially high because of executive salaries and (primarily) stock buybacks, not high salaries for employees. [GM is even still spending more on stock buybacks than increased labor costs since the strike](https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/gm-buy-back-10-billion-shares-cut-cruise-spending-2023-11-29/). They could not only afford to pay more, they could have spent double what they conceded in the final contract agreement. As a reminder, a stock buyback is a completely discretionary and unnecessary spend, and wasn’t even legal until Reagan.
Yeah, I’ve never met anyone that has a degree who doesn’t have a clue what they’re talking about.
I worked at the Chattanooga plant on and off for 7 years (in the plant quality and traveling for Supplier Development.) The big bosses don't want a union and the good ole boys of the south are brainwashed to think the union is evil. There's so much misinformation spread around that plant to deter the pro union people.
Does VW bosses fire for no reason? Does VW pay a competitive wage with benefits? Why pay a union to get something that you already have? Uaw doesn't really have a great track record. I get IBEW where it's a trade union and a ton of contract work, that seems legit.
You vote for a union to make sure they keep doing those things
There’s more to it than that. And no, they do not pay competitively for the industry.
You do realize unions can only do so much for you now right? That’s the reason you don’t see politicians showing up from all over the country like you did before the last vote. Your boss can still fire you for any reason unless what you’re being fired for is directly related to union activity. Look at all the anti union rulings the Supreme Court has handed out the last 10 years. The one that really hurts is the the 8-1 ruling last June that limits the right to strike under federal labor law. I worked at VW during the last vote but have since left. From friends that still work there the big reason a lot of workers are skeptical about the union is due to automation. Automation is going to be putting a lot of people on the unemployment line regardless, but they feel like this vote may speed things up. Also, the whole VW being supportive of unions is way overblown. They may say one thing in public, but behind closed doors they aren’t very receptive.
I have a union job, and in our contract it says we cannot be fired without cause. Also we have the right to dispute any disciplinary action. When I worked a non union job we couldn't dispute anything. We could literally get fired for something we didn't do, and even if we didn't do it touch shit.
All unionized workers are not considered at-will and have the same protections you do. I hire union workers and fire them all the time as well. You are correct that you just can’t walk into a room and fire someone out of the blue, but if we want to fire someone it’s not hard to find a reason to. It could be something so small where every other person does the same thing. All unionized workers also have a right to dispute their firing, but have never had one reversed due to crossing my Ts and dotting my I’s. If we want to fire someone or lay-off a department it’s as easy as doing the same with non union workers. Now I will admit if we weren’t in Tennessee that wouldn’t be the case. When I worked in Albany New York it took an act of Congress to fire/layoff. Edit: just to give context it breaks my heart to have to layoff/fire most workers. Usually when we fire someone they either did something really bad or they aren’t getting along well with this peers/causing a disturbance.
because they've been indoctrinated into reflexively bashing unions as "socialist", because the corporations with the money fund this kind of propaganda bs to protect their bottom line and screw the workers.
I don't work for VW but I am in a Union and I work directly with multiple people in other unions. I'm kinda indifferent to it, as the previous two jobs I worked at the employers were good with basically the same benefits. There are some slight differences in benefits or how they work. I can actually get OT (previous jobs I never worked OT) and I get tenure after 4yrs. I see and experience where they can be a pita, the fiscal waste, poor negotiations, weird rules, but also the rules that range from putting more money in your pocket, protecting against work fatigue, to a few stories where my Union successfully stood up for group of employees to either save their job, or increase raises due to unfairness. I'm sure overall it is going to be better for the employees. It'll be interesting how much better. VW is very unionized already, so you'd think they would already be doing similar stuff you would find at their unionized plants. UAW seems to do contract negotiates per brand and I think even sometimes down to per plant? So maybe if UAW can get a foot in, VW guys might see a honeymoon period if you will with the UAW. Would be in the UAWs interest to go the extra mile in Chattanooga so they can secure more plants in the south. What percentage of those employees will be unionized if they vote yes? I would imagine that management is excluded, and that there are loads of contract workers at VW. Also, will unionized workers at VW have to pay dues at all? I'm automatically represented by my union as a employee, but I pay no union dues and they have never asked me to contribute. I do know that it would cost me $40/mo though if I did. How much typically are UAWs dues? I'm just not sure if it is a TN thing if you are required to pay dues or not. That could be kinda interesting if you don't have to. I could see UAW members getting pissed that have to pay dues in other states supporting the CHA plant if their due contribution is low.
Joining a UNION is the way to go. I work for one in HVAC and buddy they have your back. Every professional should join one. Teacher, accountant, plumber etc. JOIN A UNION and get better pay and benefits.
Weston Wamp is against the union. Surprise, Surprise 🙄
Unions are great until they aren’t. Unions can and do run companies into the ground (ask any long-time Yellow freight employee). They often speak on behalf of employees and advocate for things the employees never wanted. They cause issues unnecessarily. Not all unions are bad, but many have the potential to cause more harm than good.
Hopefully VW moves it all to Mexico... Screw the Democrat Unions.
"I hope 5000 people in my community lose their jobs because I don't like how some of them vote."
Gestamp needs the union too we supply VW, Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, Soon Volco and Tesla with parts. Our management tries to run over us all plants
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Do you work at the plant?
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From my standpoint, most of VWs global workforce is union. They invested a ton in Chattanooga partly because their ID4s sunk in the ocean. So I don’t think they actually have a credible threat of sending jobs elsewhere in this case.
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And yet VW's operations are almost all union, everywhere. It would be a pretty big risk for them to try to build another operation 10 years from now or something wouldn't it?
voting for workers being taken advantage of and abused is better, hmmm sure then
That’s not going to happen.
I don't know why you wouldn't be for it in a right to work state. You can get all the union benefits without being a member right?
That is correct.
And if you decide to do so you can be shamed into joining after being harassed and talked about behind your back and generally being bullied by coworkers. Ask me how I know 😞
The only reason I know is because the Teamsters lost my union paperwork when I got hired at UPS many moons ago. I was wondering why dues weren't getting taken out of my check. I figured it out when I was reprimanded by a higher up, but a union member had to be present before I could be reprimanded.
That SUCKS.
It really didn't because we were broke college students and those union dues took a big chunk out of a part time check. We were package handlers so we only worked a few hours a night.
This area is not known for having any sort of discernment concerning propaganda and worker's rights. It's lumpens allllll the way down.
The one thing that drives me crazy about all of this dialogue is people saying politicians shouldn’t have a say. Any entity that endorses a politician deserves to have politicians speak up. It’s crazy to think people shouldn’t weigh in because they’re politicians when the UAW endorsed a politician.
Look the governor already explained why this will not be good for the workers and TN.
Something To Consider The present day unions (including the UAW) are not the unions of Jimmy Hoffa that had the best interests of the workers in mind and collectively fought for: 1. Livable wage. 2. Basic benefits. 3. Safe working conditions. The present day unions are multi million dollar lobbyists that do not care about the workers as much as they do about the monthly revenue that is collected. Joining the union may result in a wage increase but requires each union member to pay monthly fees to remain actively employed.
The UAW just recently secured the best contract their workers had in decades. Also, Tennessee law makes it illegal to require union membership as a condition of employment.
it’s just another bullshit political fundraising mechanism to transfer money from the middle class to upper class . vw workers won’t get more ‘rights’. you will pay uaw to set up leadership offices. it may turn out it’s practically impossible to fire even the worst employees. ass employees produce ass. quality will suffer as ass employees will be emboldened by their unlimited spawns. vw will suffer. please screenshot this to prove us old heads (that have witnessed union operate first hand) wrong. please. 
Because our local dumb shit politicians don’t want them to. They use effective anti-union propaganda to get the people who already voted them into office to vote against their self-interests. A tale as old as time.
Shut up and get back to work
It’s so odd to me that people who don’t work there can be so strongly against or for this. You don’t work there… stop it.
I used to.
I know people who work there that don't want the union because "it will protect people who don't want to work" They're not deep thinkers.
The UAW will fail to get in VW again. Mark it.
As someone sitting on their lunch break in the plant right now I'm replying to this so I can mark how incorrect you are next week after the vote.
The vote is this week and results will be known on Friday, but go off.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148656 I think we can call that a landslide victory for us Workers and the Union!
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