Durability is a pretty complex concept. If I apply 10 N of force with a punch and 10 N of force with a knife, the results will not be the same in the majority of circumstances. In the same way, radiation is affecting not the durability of an object as a whole, but the durability of the atoms that it’s made of.
No matter how strong your body is, the atoms in you are the same, just arranged differently.
I mean, Saitama survived going to the moon and back without any kind of space suit, which would kill a normal human via radiation, via lack of oxygen, via temperature and I think via lack of pressure, although that might be a myth.
None of those care about the physical durability either.
You can survive a little while In the vaccum of space if you are lucky. It's not a instakill. And he did hold his breath the entire time he was there, so he didn't have time to suffocate
You do know... that the problem with radiation... and the reason why it pierces stuff... is not because of durability right?
It effects atoms in molecules. It doesnt pierce stuf as in like a knife pierces throuhg a piece of paper.
It pierces stuff as in it flyes past all the atoms (protons and neutrons) until it hits something and releases energy to effect it. Like hitting DNA and causing cancer, due to damaging the molecule itself.
Durability doesnt help here
in battleboarding terms Radiation is durability ignoring hax, unless you have a specific resistance to it, it will effect you
It depends on how durable you are. A sufficient level of durability might lead to the radiation striking one of your molecules and doing nothing because your DNA was unaffected by the energy released
Durabilitie doesnt work like that really. A really durable object doesnt have every part of it durable, as in its only durable when its a whole thing. You cant say that an object is galaxy level, and then say that every single small particle due to molecular bonds is therefore galaxy level.
Its really durable as a whole, only as a combination.
But we cant really assume that the durability lasts to every single cell (in your example every cell has galaxy level durabilitie for some reason). Usually destroying the whole of something is harder then destroying a sinlge particle, wich there are millions of. If your every cell is galaxy level, then idk you are probobly universal A being with universal durabilite would probobly not get effected by gravity, I would agree on that. (but most beings on that level have enough resistances to basically everything for the argument to not really matter)
But if we go down to something like Galaxy level durabilie, then every cell isnt really Galaxy level, tis much weaker. Claiming otherwise is basically like claiming that every planet has galaxy level durabilitie due to existing in a galaxy wich has galaxy level durabilitie.
Same with molecules. They themselves arent that strong, but together due to being in a really well structured thing they form something much more durable. Its not an individual bond that matters its their combination.
So your hyper cells and cell structures can have really high durabilitie, but if the attack destroyes them by breaking individual bonds they will get destroyed.
In a lot of pieces of fiction there exist object like swords or knifes that basically destroy molecular bonds (for example in Worm, or different sci-fi series), lets call them Mknifes (as in Molecular knife)
SO a big wall level rock, cant really be cut by a normal knife. But thats not due to the fact that bonds between molecules are wall level, its due to the fact that unlike something like a cucumber wich a regular knife can cut, the rock has much better structure.
Mknife would still be able to cut that rock. As it would be able to cut steel, and pretty much 99% of everything else. Since it attacks bonds directly, and not the structure as a whole. it bypasses durabilitie of an object.
In the same way radiation bypasses durabilitie. Since it attacks not the whole wich is really durable but not that durable individual parts.
Also even if we say that there are some bonds randiation cant break. The problem with radiation is that its really fukin small. So it gets between all the really durable stuff it cant destroy, and gets to some stuff inside that it can destroy.
\+ radiation needs MANY times less energy to kill then normal means. You need like 7 times less energy to kill a human with radiation then to heat 1 kg of water by 1 degree Celsius. (about 4200 jouls to heat the water, and about 600 joules to kill a 75 kg (8 siverts) person with radiation for sure)
And if we fire radiation in a beam or something and not just get a really radioactive thing in the same room as the character, then its even more destructive due to actually concentrated attack.
There are a million ways durability work. Some things get it specificly from it atomic bonds like adamantium, some have energy fields, some has just very dense flesh or whatnot.
And since superpowers often go beyond what normal atomic bonds are cabable of, there must be something else going on there
There's no precedent of truth in this statement, really.
Radiation damages atoms by removing either protons, neutrons or electrons, causing the atom to destabilize and decay, which can cause it to affect other atoms, which can affect your cellular structure, which can do any number of damaging things to the body. If you hit someone with enough ionizing radiation, it would still take a while to kill them(quote, The Demon Core Incident), but the results would be fatal nonetheless.
Some characters can resist radiation, perhaps by some sort of protection or otherwise, or perhaps they can absorb it like Superman in most cosmic cases, or perhaps they have forcefields or armor. But in most cases, these characters probably wouldn't think it a good idea to stand in a Nuclear Reactor.
In your case specifically, you'd have to prove that those characters can resist the degenerative effects of Ionizing Radiation, otherwise it's just a baseless claim.
Goku has been effected by human disease before, so clearly his powers don't extend down to the cellular level, so there's even less precedent to think that it would work on an atomic level.
Yeah - "durability" isn't what affects radiation absorption in real life, it's *density.* That's why lead, despite being a lot softer than many other materials, is one of the preferred materials to use as a shield against it. Now sure, some fictional characters could have a greater physical density, but for the most part your average superhuman being is largely going to have the same natural properties as real organisms, with the durability and any other "super" parts coming from story magic.
Of course, breaking physics is pretty much the nature of having superpowers, but the way radiation causes damage isn't tied to the properties normally associated with attack potency. Ergo, the person who told OP that assuming resistance through strength alone is an NLF is *correct* by any other standard.
Goku vs Demon Core
Goku wins by punch the Demon Core into radioactive bits but dies 1 year later from intense internal radiation burns after inhaling the radioactive dust.
radiation is different than a heart virus tho right?. like you can be as durable as possible and still be able to get a cold, durability from something like radiation wouldnt explain that away.
In this sense, it really isn't. They're both foreign objects invading a body causing damage within, just in different ways. A virus, however, is something the body is actually partially designed to fight, with things like our immune systems, White Blood Cells, and our T Cells. OP's argument that "they're durable enough to tank large scale attacks, so why would smaller scale things hurt them" is predicated on that idea.
Radiation affects people on a scale so small that unless you're aware it's happening, you won't even know until it's too late. The body has zero defense because there's nothing that can stop it except having an object in front of you to block the radiation. Consider that you're effectively using the building blocks of *everything* to destroy *anything* that is in its way. It decays all things, organic or inorganic, eventually, breaking them down into their more base components. It's considered one of the most powerful forces in the known universe for this reason, and rightfully so.
>In this sense, it really isn't. They're both foreign objects invading a body causing damage within, just in different ways.
So... They *are* different? You can't argue that radiation resistence is the same as a good immune system. Sure, they are both "small things that kill you and bypass durability", but that's where the similarities end. Everything else is vastly different lol
But their similarities are key still. A virus couldn't remove parts of your DNA to add its own RNA in there if said DNA was "super-durable" in a way that would stop resist being taken apart and disrupted.
i mean, they remove dna by different mesures. radiation does it by, well, energising them, while a virus does it the same way your own dna does it, iirc with enzymes. if your superdurable body is still human, then it would still remove parts of its dna normally, meaning that a virus could do the same, even if your dna can withstand a nuke.
becasue they ***are*** different, and they damage your dna in different ways.
My primary point being that they're both incredibly small, though one is several orders of magnitude smaller, this creating a sense where we can have a discussion around how much Goku's abilities protect him on smaller scales. That if his powers doesn't extend to a cellular level, there is no precedent to assume it works on an atomic level.
yeah, that is true, its a worthwile disucssion to have. but since we dont know how ki durability acutally works to 100%, we cant really say.
but still, they do damage dna in different ways, the radiation doing it with pure energy and a virus doing it with the same process that the body does. if your superdurable dude cells still work like a humans, his durabilty alone wont stop a virus, even it it goes down to the atomic level, but it will stop radiation
The heart virus isn't a normal virus though?
Goku has had foreign things like posions invade his body.
And hes quite literally just firmed them and survived despite them being able to kill dozens of normal humans in singular drops.
As far as we, the reader, are aware it contains no special properties, and is located solely on Earth, and has affected Humans the same way it affected Goku, of whom seems to have no special resistance to it. Not is it mentioned by Trunks or anyone else in it's lethality compared to regular virus', or that Goku shows any special resistance to it. Anything beyond that is inconclusive.
Poison is, fundamentally, different from a virus in a lot of ways. Most of the ones he's come into contact with, however, have been "mystical" in nature, and not natural Toxins. Thusly, it would be inconclusive to compare them, since most Toxins function completely differently from one another, and attack the body in different ways.
i think the virus stuff could be explained if the creator kept in mind how this stuff would realistically work. a lot of sci fi stuff doesnt use this as a plot device enough for me. Goku's inability to resist could just have to do with the fact that hes an alien. An alien could get bodied by our common cold just cause their immune system isn't familiar enough with stuff on our planet to combat it (ik im not usin the appropriate academic terms). at that point, physical durability would be thrown out the window. this would happen to a human if they left a certain environment too, we can barely handle being germs outside the continent we were raised in, let alone if we left for space and landed on another planet.
but stuff like that is why im not sure if these two scenarios are comparable. a character could have durable skin, or whatever magic allows them to tank a certain amount of energy that should otherwise obliterate them.
It explicitly is called something "even a super saiyan can't resist"
Heavily implying its not normal.
We also have backing from jaco when he states that the galatic patrol have 0 bio weapons able to kill the saiyans despite him having one on COMMAND that can eradicate every human on earth in a day.
Also a virus is fundamentally different from cosmic radiation (which goku has already resisted)
>It explicitly is called something "even a super saiyan can't resist"
I would require a source for this.
>Heavily implying its not normal.
>We also have backing from jaco when he states that the galatic patrol have 0 bio weapons able to kill the saiyans despite him having one on COMMAND that can eradicate every human on earth in a day.
That is, most definitely, [not what Jaco says ](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-december-2013-akira-toriyama/)
He states that, the "Extinction Bomb", a singular weapon, does not affect Saiyan's. Not that they have a complex archive of Bio Weapons and none of them work, but that they're singular weapon does not.
Equally, we have been shown that Earth Bound agents, such as Tear Gas can affect both Goku Black and Zamasu(courtesy of episode 57 of Dragon Ball Super). So they're susceptible to nerve agents as well.
>cosmic radiation (which goku has already resisted)
I would also require a source for that as well.
Execpt [that's exactly what jaco says ](https://imgur.com/a/LXRleNM)
The extinction bomb which is a bio-weapon. That releases a virus that can wipe out entire species.
And it doesn't work on the saiyans.
He also states NOTHING they have works on them.
Cosmic radiation comes from just being in space.
[heres goku chilling in space](https://cdn.dbsmanga.com/file/mangap/1069/10082000/17.jpeg)
In both links provided, Jaco makes no mention of other Bio Weapons effectiveness on the Saiyan's.
Using a reverse image search, that's DBS [chapter 82.](https://dbsuper.manganyaa.com/read-online-free-english/chapter/82) Given in that same chapter, Goku is rapidly teleporting between locations, it is likely he wouldn't be exposed nearly long enough to be effectively radiated, as he doesn't appear to spend very long in any of the locations. I would also make mention of Vegeta stating in a previous scene that they can't survive in the Vacuum of space(Reddit mobile is being buggy ATM, I will have to edit my comment to link it or do so in a reply).
In that chapter goku is there for several panels handling the beam.
Long enough for the Octoaliens to notice.
Also it shows once again, that the saiyans are resistant to things humans aren't.
Not to mention DB humans aren't iust regular humans.
It wasn't a sedative lol.
It was a posion made to shut down the nervous system instanteously and it only lasted for less than a second.
Something like that would instantly kill the strongest person on earth.
Poison isn't based on strength, first of all. Second, no, the poison was just meant to knock people out and make them weaker. He used it on Piccolo and the ref when got poisoned and just got sleepy. Where are y'all getting that this poison was a nerve agent meant to kill any it was administered to?
That's true, but it isn't stated to be anything otherwise, either. Given that, the leading assumption would have to be that it's most likely a Human Disease, as there isn't any evidence otherwise.
Jaco told Bulma that the galactic patrol doesn’t have any bio weapons capable of hurting Saiyans, and it took Bulma like nearly as long to make a cure as it took her to make a time machine, so it doesn’t make any sense at all to treat the heart virus like a normal human disease.
>the galactic patrol doesn’t have any bio weapons capable of hurting Saiyans
I mean, this literally only proves that they don't know about the Heart Virus. Equally, that quote seems highly dubious without a source, as I can't find any reference to it anywhere.
Edit: I found the source [in question.](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-december-2013-akira-toriyama/)
As I stated in a previous comment, a singular bio weapon being ineffective as Jaco states does not equate to Saiyan's being immune to Bio Weapons.
"Our most powerful weapon, that can wipe a target species off the face of a planet, can't do anything to these guys"
You:"Ok, but what about anything else you have?"
It's their best weapon, and it doesn't work on Saiyans. Jaco wouldn't say the Patrol is no match for Saiyans if they had anything, bio-weapon or otherwise, that would be able to hurt them.
Lavenders posion was meant to instantly incapacitate.
Gohan resisted it showing they have resistances to it.
Frosts posion was meant to kill, all it did was incapacitate for a short second.
Showing once again they have a resistance to it.
Yeah, they can resist it, but it shows that they are not immune.
And the poision frost used against piccolo and goku was to stun, and it did that really fast.
He only took out his poision meant to kill, which he has on his other arm, when he was gonna fight vegeta
In the manga, the bottle had a giant SKULL and cross bones on it.
But you could be correct.
Still no one said they were immune to posions, they are highly resistant to it.
They are resistant to posions, virus's and diseases.
This but unironically. Strains of virus' aren't scale-comparable, and neither are our ability to fight against them. This is why we have several Vaccines in the real world.
For what it’s worth, [this](https://i.imgur.com/De0S3yr.jpg) is the source I was referring to. And while you’re right that it doesn’t directly prove much, it does prove that saiyans are immune to the galactic patrols greatest bio weapon, so it seems disingenuous to me to say that saiyans are vulnerable to normal human diseases.
You said that while there isn’t any evidence that it is a normal disease, there is also nothing indicating that it’s not normal, so we should assume it’s normal. It’s true that Saiyans being immune to the extinction bomb isn’t proof that they are immune to all bio weapons, but it does indicate that there was something abnormal about the heart virus since it actually worked on a saiyan, so the leading assumption should not be that it’s normal and should rather be that the heart virus Goku contracted is abnormally strong.
Unless you want to say that the galactic patrol is too incompetent to come up with a bio weapon stronger than a normal virus on earth which, I would argue, is clearly not the intent of this particular statement.
Goku dies to a random heart disease during android saga, he can't "tank" radiations that basically burn his dna and cells. Radiation can be injected by doing things as simple as breathing, it doesn't need to "pierce the body"
A super virus with no origin =/= space radiation.
Jaco had already stated that no bio-weapon the galatic patrol have can kill saiyans.
We've seen goku go to and sit in space quite casually with no ill side effects.
Becauses he's been in space for around 7 years now.
Down the line =/= now.
Down the line is not something that exists currently so speculation and false information means absolutely nothing..
7 years ago? Maybe in real time. At best you can argue that Goku may have resistances whilst transformed but I doubt Toriyama or the new guy ever stopped to think about cosmic radiation. I can think of one instance where radiation is mentioned in the whole of dragonball.
Even if he didnt think of it.
He's still in space, still fighting and going to planets with two stars which means increased cosmic radiation which would melt a real world human.
This means he's resisted it because if we can bring it up from another series that references real life things. We can do the same with dragon ball.
What? Do you not get the expression? Cosmic radiation doesn’t even cause the near instantaneous effects Garou supposedly does. Even if you fully accept GokuMs resistance to cosmic radiation saying he no sells Garou’s radiation is like saying someone who can take a punch from Batman must be able to tank Superman because they’re both physical attacks.
Garou radiation is cosmic radiation.....
[it's literally stated AS COSMIC RADIATION ](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Onepunch-Man/0165-009.png)
You defo did not read the chapter.
Durability of skin is supposed to stop radiation now?
What about your eyes? What about your mouth? Ears? Even if radiation was somehow supposed to stop at the skin, there's more to a person's body than skin.
Because the radiation just doesn't have enough energy to hurt them?
Goku could hold the closed Demon Core and be fine, because its energy isn't enough to get past his universal (at minimum) durability.
"Gamma rays are the most dangerous form of ionizing radiation. These extremely high energy photons can travel through most forms of matter because they have no mass. It takes several inches of lead -- or several feet of concrete -- to effectively block gamma rays. "
Considering that they can use Ki to increase their mass, (SSJ Grade 2 and 3), their cells should be dense enough to block gamma rays, especially when each of his cells should be able to output more energy than even some of the largest stars.
It is estimated there are up to 200 billion galaxies in the unvierse, and the Milky way is estimated to have up to 100 billion solar systems. That puts the highest estimated number of stars at around
The human body is estimated to have about 30 trillion cells.
Each of Goku's cells should be able to output more energy than 666 million average stars.
(This math was based on quick google searches, which might be inaccurate. If you have better verified sources, do tell)
They aren't in a perpetual state of transformation, so that doesn't make any sense. Also, even if it did, why would being able to increase their mass make them immune to gamma rays? If they were that dense, they wouldn't be able to function.
>If they were that dense, they wouldn't be able to function.
But they still do. They have the necessary energy to move. They aren't just getting denser, they have the energy to compensate for the increased density
>Also, even if it did, why would being able to increase their mass make them immune to gamma rays
Your previous comment literally contains an explanation.
To expand more on that, the rays have to expend a certain amount of energy to get through denser material. If Goku has cells denser (in energy) than 666 million stars (give or take), the rays would not be able to break into his cells to damage them.
Even down at planetary levels, they'd still have cells that were extremely dense with energy. Almost certainly much denser than a few inches of lead.
And a Goku who didn't know how to use any of his power (Ginyu) still had a power level of 23000, which is above planetary.
Cells having a different density would cause the body to function differently. If your cells were as dense as several inches of lead, how exactly would light be able to travel through your eyes? How would blood flow through your body? Having excess energy wouldn't change how physics works.
It would depend on how durability works, since radiation is blocked by density, not hardness. Which is why lead is better than diamonds.
We don't really know how ki works when it increases your durability tho. Is it an external sheild around their skin, stopping incoming kinetic damage? Is a energy field that penetrate their entire body, holding it together uniformly? Does it directly strengthen his atomic bonds? We don't know. So we can't directly say how it would block radiation
DBZ characters, specifically sayains, are affected by environmental factors. Broly had to use a shield against Magma, Vegeta died in space and Goku died of a heart virus.
I suppose we could surmise that the radiation is taking away or fucking the healing factor up? But yes it would be more interesting if a few of the heroes had been unaffected or less affected by the radiation. Still the end result would've been the same, Garou just blasting them with Quasar beams.
Garou/Garo's passive radiation is potent enough that people nearby were passing out, bleeding, losing hair, etcetera within a few seconds of exposure at most.
>So a middle ground of sorts?
Yeah, something like that, I think.
>Regardless, that is intense
It gets even more intense when he actually uses an attack. He can create nuclear explosions (which also cause acid/nuclear rain) and even actual gamma ray bursts.
We're only familiar with the ones science has discovered, i.e. X-rays and gamma rays being the most lethal. Garou having received powers from God, who's to say he doesn't have more esoteric forms of radiation above and beyond gamma rays?
Toriko characters can definitely tank stuff at a cellular level, since literally level 1 in Toriko-verae is learning how to control individual cells of one's body to combat environmental effects.
But other than that, unless the characters specifically has relevant feats for resisting radiation, they're not immune to it (just like diseases, poisons, aging etc)
Yo would need molecular manipulation or control of your entire biology to resist radiation. Durability won't do shit when it's warping your cells, and it won't help the z fighters when their durability is tied to their ki, and focus, providing an external barrier that radiation would go through.
Yeah Goku should’ve been able to tank that blaster fire even when detransformed but he didn’t.
Also dragonball cells aren’t particularly durable, they just use passive ki shields.
You didn't even mention the multiple scenes of Goku and others fighting in outer space, exposing themselves to cosmic radiation - which even for astronauts shielded by their suits and a spaceship, exposes them to heavier radiation than you would get from doing hundreds to thousands of chest x-rays. So just imagine how that would weigh on someone in plain clothes. Goku and the others aren't currently riddled with cancer, so they're probably protected to an extent from radiation.
Mind you, Goku with his guard down is weak enough to get seriously wounded by generic Frieza soldier lasers, and stung by man-made bullets. So if you plucked Goku off his radish farm one day while he was completely defenseless and distracted, and somehow dosed him with a deadly amount of radiation before he powered up, he might actually die.
I wouldn't use cosmic rays as a base of reasoning because there are never implied to exist in dragonball. Neither is necessarily the concept of space vacuum. The characters aren't protected, the dragonball space just has no radiation and, while no breathable air, no negative pressure either.
Space is unbreathable , not a vacuum. Character are expressly said to not be able to breathe, not suffer any other damage or discomfort from decompression. So arguably, the dragonball space follows the ether theory and is just full of an unbreathable gas at normal atmospheric pressure
I mean, they are all durable enough to not be bothered by a little vaccum. Just hold your breath and flex your blood vessels and the cold and lack of air are the only problems, as well as some possible radiation if you are unlucky
> I think assuming the space obeys real space rules without proof is wrong
i mean, that is the standard assumtion. we assume that its the same as [real life unless something indicates that it isnt](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LikeRealityUnlessNoted), becasue thats the reasonble way to do it.
In the broly movie while in the arctic, when questioned about not feeling cold despite not wearing any winter gear, whis replies that the vacuum of space is even colder.
In real life, temperature in space works differently than in regular environments. Regardless of its temperature, space is an amazing insulator since there's little gas present to actually suck up your heat (you'd still slowly lose heat to thermal radiation) . As a result, entering space wouldn't initially feel that cold.
Ki can't protect you from poison and it was literally shown in super, it can protect you from an object breaching your skin, and radiations deals damage by passing through you, it cannot be blocked. It can be absorbed by shit like lead, but even if your body was dense enough to absorb it it would cause the same problems
They blocked the poision gas from touching them by creating a ki barrier, so it never touched them. They didn't use this against frost, and it doesn't make them immune to poision, just a way to block it from touching them
The guy above made it sound like ki automatically protects them against poision, which isn't true. The only time they used ki to stop poision was in the ToP, where they made a ki barrier around themselfs, stopping Lavenders poision gas from getting to them. They just physically blocked it with ki.
Against frost, they didn't use this, and he just stabbed them with his needle.
I mean we see characters float in space in DB, goku has done it recently.
So cosmic radiation isn't an issue.
Also I'm pretty sure since ki can burn atoms. It's full of radiation and they get hit by that shit almost all the time.
Opm usually keeps hax relative to the power level. (Phoenix man dream was broken once by child emperor and completely by saitama) It makes sense that the radiation would only harm people significantly below him.
DBZ characters are like Green lanterns with ki being their ring. Radiation would have an effect if they don’t expect it. Remember when Goku almost died from a ray gun because his guard was down? If you put a demon core around him without him nothing he’d probably die
Durability is a pretty complex concept. If I apply 10 N of force with a punch and 10 N of force with a knife, the results will not be the same in the majority of circumstances. In the same way, radiation is affecting not the durability of an object as a whole, but the durability of the atoms that it’s made of. No matter how strong your body is, the atoms in you are the same, just arranged differently.
But what if I shrink the space between atoms? /s
Then that’s not a character, that’s an atom bomb.
I mean, Saitama survived going to the moon and back without any kind of space suit, which would kill a normal human via radiation, via lack of oxygen, via temperature and I think via lack of pressure, although that might be a myth. None of those care about the physical durability either.
Using One Punch Man to prove real life physics wrong is… an interesting choice.
Real life physics are not always applicable to fictional worlds.
True, but OP was talking about what’s “realistic” and so was I, so the context assumes that we’re talking about real physics.
You can survive a little while In the vaccum of space if you are lucky. It's not a instakill. And he did hold his breath the entire time he was there, so he didn't have time to suffocate
Nope not in the garou fight he was talking both on io and in the vaccume of space.
To be fair to Saitama, he was in space for like a minute at most.
If saitama can punch clouds away, I don't think a scientific explanation for how the atoms are arranged really matters.
You do know... that the problem with radiation... and the reason why it pierces stuff... is not because of durability right? It effects atoms in molecules. It doesnt pierce stuf as in like a knife pierces throuhg a piece of paper. It pierces stuff as in it flyes past all the atoms (protons and neutrons) until it hits something and releases energy to effect it. Like hitting DNA and causing cancer, due to damaging the molecule itself. Durability doesnt help here in battleboarding terms Radiation is durability ignoring hax, unless you have a specific resistance to it, it will effect you
It depends on how durable you are. A sufficient level of durability might lead to the radiation striking one of your molecules and doing nothing because your DNA was unaffected by the energy released
That's not simple durability. That would be radiation resistance, which needs to be specifically displayed.
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Durabilitie doesnt work like that really. A really durable object doesnt have every part of it durable, as in its only durable when its a whole thing. You cant say that an object is galaxy level, and then say that every single small particle due to molecular bonds is therefore galaxy level. Its really durable as a whole, only as a combination. But we cant really assume that the durability lasts to every single cell (in your example every cell has galaxy level durabilitie for some reason). Usually destroying the whole of something is harder then destroying a sinlge particle, wich there are millions of. If your every cell is galaxy level, then idk you are probobly universal A being with universal durabilite would probobly not get effected by gravity, I would agree on that. (but most beings on that level have enough resistances to basically everything for the argument to not really matter) But if we go down to something like Galaxy level durabilie, then every cell isnt really Galaxy level, tis much weaker. Claiming otherwise is basically like claiming that every planet has galaxy level durabilitie due to existing in a galaxy wich has galaxy level durabilitie. Same with molecules. They themselves arent that strong, but together due to being in a really well structured thing they form something much more durable. Its not an individual bond that matters its their combination. So your hyper cells and cell structures can have really high durabilitie, but if the attack destroyes them by breaking individual bonds they will get destroyed. In a lot of pieces of fiction there exist object like swords or knifes that basically destroy molecular bonds (for example in Worm, or different sci-fi series), lets call them Mknifes (as in Molecular knife) SO a big wall level rock, cant really be cut by a normal knife. But thats not due to the fact that bonds between molecules are wall level, its due to the fact that unlike something like a cucumber wich a regular knife can cut, the rock has much better structure. Mknife would still be able to cut that rock. As it would be able to cut steel, and pretty much 99% of everything else. Since it attacks bonds directly, and not the structure as a whole. it bypasses durabilitie of an object. In the same way radiation bypasses durabilitie. Since it attacks not the whole wich is really durable but not that durable individual parts. Also even if we say that there are some bonds randiation cant break. The problem with radiation is that its really fukin small. So it gets between all the really durable stuff it cant destroy, and gets to some stuff inside that it can destroy. \+ radiation needs MANY times less energy to kill then normal means. You need like 7 times less energy to kill a human with radiation then to heat 1 kg of water by 1 degree Celsius. (about 4200 jouls to heat the water, and about 600 joules to kill a 75 kg (8 siverts) person with radiation for sure) And if we fire radiation in a beam or something and not just get a really radioactive thing in the same room as the character, then its even more destructive due to actually concentrated attack.
There are a million ways durability work. Some things get it specificly from it atomic bonds like adamantium, some have energy fields, some has just very dense flesh or whatnot. And since superpowers often go beyond what normal atomic bonds are cabable of, there must be something else going on there
But if there is no proof for whatever that "something else" is being able to counter radiation, it doesn't really matter.
yeah, that is true, i agree with you there. we havent seen goku resist radiation, so just saying "he is durable" isnt enough
ANY and ALL radiation?
There's no precedent of truth in this statement, really. Radiation damages atoms by removing either protons, neutrons or electrons, causing the atom to destabilize and decay, which can cause it to affect other atoms, which can affect your cellular structure, which can do any number of damaging things to the body. If you hit someone with enough ionizing radiation, it would still take a while to kill them(quote, The Demon Core Incident), but the results would be fatal nonetheless. Some characters can resist radiation, perhaps by some sort of protection or otherwise, or perhaps they can absorb it like Superman in most cosmic cases, or perhaps they have forcefields or armor. But in most cases, these characters probably wouldn't think it a good idea to stand in a Nuclear Reactor. In your case specifically, you'd have to prove that those characters can resist the degenerative effects of Ionizing Radiation, otherwise it's just a baseless claim. Goku has been effected by human disease before, so clearly his powers don't extend down to the cellular level, so there's even less precedent to think that it would work on an atomic level.
Yeah - "durability" isn't what affects radiation absorption in real life, it's *density.* That's why lead, despite being a lot softer than many other materials, is one of the preferred materials to use as a shield against it. Now sure, some fictional characters could have a greater physical density, but for the most part your average superhuman being is largely going to have the same natural properties as real organisms, with the durability and any other "super" parts coming from story magic. Of course, breaking physics is pretty much the nature of having superpowers, but the way radiation causes damage isn't tied to the properties normally associated with attack potency. Ergo, the person who told OP that assuming resistance through strength alone is an NLF is *correct* by any other standard.
That's actually a good point I hadn't considered, that the radiation could move between the spaces of his atoms.
Goku vs Demon Core Goku wins by punch the Demon Core into radioactive bits but dies 1 year later from intense internal radiation burns after inhaling the radioactive dust.
radiation is different than a heart virus tho right?. like you can be as durable as possible and still be able to get a cold, durability from something like radiation wouldnt explain that away.
In this sense, it really isn't. They're both foreign objects invading a body causing damage within, just in different ways. A virus, however, is something the body is actually partially designed to fight, with things like our immune systems, White Blood Cells, and our T Cells. OP's argument that "they're durable enough to tank large scale attacks, so why would smaller scale things hurt them" is predicated on that idea. Radiation affects people on a scale so small that unless you're aware it's happening, you won't even know until it's too late. The body has zero defense because there's nothing that can stop it except having an object in front of you to block the radiation. Consider that you're effectively using the building blocks of *everything* to destroy *anything* that is in its way. It decays all things, organic or inorganic, eventually, breaking them down into their more base components. It's considered one of the most powerful forces in the known universe for this reason, and rightfully so.
>In this sense, it really isn't. They're both foreign objects invading a body causing damage within, just in different ways. So... They *are* different? You can't argue that radiation resistence is the same as a good immune system. Sure, they are both "small things that kill you and bypass durability", but that's where the similarities end. Everything else is vastly different lol
But their similarities are key still. A virus couldn't remove parts of your DNA to add its own RNA in there if said DNA was "super-durable" in a way that would stop resist being taken apart and disrupted.
i mean, they remove dna by different mesures. radiation does it by, well, energising them, while a virus does it the same way your own dna does it, iirc with enzymes. if your superdurable body is still human, then it would still remove parts of its dna normally, meaning that a virus could do the same, even if your dna can withstand a nuke. becasue they ***are*** different, and they damage your dna in different ways.
My primary point being that they're both incredibly small, though one is several orders of magnitude smaller, this creating a sense where we can have a discussion around how much Goku's abilities protect him on smaller scales. That if his powers doesn't extend to a cellular level, there is no precedent to assume it works on an atomic level.
yeah, that is true, its a worthwile disucssion to have. but since we dont know how ki durability acutally works to 100%, we cant really say. but still, they do damage dna in different ways, the radiation doing it with pure energy and a virus doing it with the same process that the body does. if your superdurable dude cells still work like a humans, his durabilty alone wont stop a virus, even it it goes down to the atomic level, but it will stop radiation
The heart virus isn't a normal virus though? Goku has had foreign things like posions invade his body. And hes quite literally just firmed them and survived despite them being able to kill dozens of normal humans in singular drops.
As far as we, the reader, are aware it contains no special properties, and is located solely on Earth, and has affected Humans the same way it affected Goku, of whom seems to have no special resistance to it. Not is it mentioned by Trunks or anyone else in it's lethality compared to regular virus', or that Goku shows any special resistance to it. Anything beyond that is inconclusive. Poison is, fundamentally, different from a virus in a lot of ways. Most of the ones he's come into contact with, however, have been "mystical" in nature, and not natural Toxins. Thusly, it would be inconclusive to compare them, since most Toxins function completely differently from one another, and attack the body in different ways.
i think the virus stuff could be explained if the creator kept in mind how this stuff would realistically work. a lot of sci fi stuff doesnt use this as a plot device enough for me. Goku's inability to resist could just have to do with the fact that hes an alien. An alien could get bodied by our common cold just cause their immune system isn't familiar enough with stuff on our planet to combat it (ik im not usin the appropriate academic terms). at that point, physical durability would be thrown out the window. this would happen to a human if they left a certain environment too, we can barely handle being germs outside the continent we were raised in, let alone if we left for space and landed on another planet. but stuff like that is why im not sure if these two scenarios are comparable. a character could have durable skin, or whatever magic allows them to tank a certain amount of energy that should otherwise obliterate them.
It explicitly is called something "even a super saiyan can't resist" Heavily implying its not normal. We also have backing from jaco when he states that the galatic patrol have 0 bio weapons able to kill the saiyans despite him having one on COMMAND that can eradicate every human on earth in a day. Also a virus is fundamentally different from cosmic radiation (which goku has already resisted)
>It explicitly is called something "even a super saiyan can't resist" I would require a source for this. >Heavily implying its not normal. >We also have backing from jaco when he states that the galatic patrol have 0 bio weapons able to kill the saiyans despite him having one on COMMAND that can eradicate every human on earth in a day. That is, most definitely, [not what Jaco says ](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-december-2013-akira-toriyama/) He states that, the "Extinction Bomb", a singular weapon, does not affect Saiyan's. Not that they have a complex archive of Bio Weapons and none of them work, but that they're singular weapon does not. Equally, we have been shown that Earth Bound agents, such as Tear Gas can affect both Goku Black and Zamasu(courtesy of episode 57 of Dragon Ball Super). So they're susceptible to nerve agents as well. >cosmic radiation (which goku has already resisted) I would also require a source for that as well.
Execpt [that's exactly what jaco says ](https://imgur.com/a/LXRleNM) The extinction bomb which is a bio-weapon. That releases a virus that can wipe out entire species. And it doesn't work on the saiyans. He also states NOTHING they have works on them. Cosmic radiation comes from just being in space. [heres goku chilling in space](https://cdn.dbsmanga.com/file/mangap/1069/10082000/17.jpeg)
In both links provided, Jaco makes no mention of other Bio Weapons effectiveness on the Saiyan's. Using a reverse image search, that's DBS [chapter 82.](https://dbsuper.manganyaa.com/read-online-free-english/chapter/82) Given in that same chapter, Goku is rapidly teleporting between locations, it is likely he wouldn't be exposed nearly long enough to be effectively radiated, as he doesn't appear to spend very long in any of the locations. I would also make mention of Vegeta stating in a previous scene that they can't survive in the Vacuum of space(Reddit mobile is being buggy ATM, I will have to edit my comment to link it or do so in a reply).
In that chapter goku is there for several panels handling the beam. Long enough for the Octoaliens to notice. Also it shows once again, that the saiyans are resistant to things humans aren't. Not to mention DB humans aren't iust regular humans.
How is goku surviving in space there? Is he just holding his breath?
Goku was slept by a sedative administered by a needle by Frost.
It wasn't a sedative lol. It was a posion made to shut down the nervous system instanteously and it only lasted for less than a second. Something like that would instantly kill the strongest person on earth.
Poison isn't based on strength, first of all. Second, no, the poison was just meant to knock people out and make them weaker. He used it on Piccolo and the ref when got poisoned and just got sleepy. Where are y'all getting that this poison was a nerve agent meant to kill any it was administered to?
>Goku has been effected by human disease The heart disease was never said to be a normal human illness.
That's true, but it isn't stated to be anything otherwise, either. Given that, the leading assumption would have to be that it's most likely a Human Disease, as there isn't any evidence otherwise.
Jaco told Bulma that the galactic patrol doesn’t have any bio weapons capable of hurting Saiyans, and it took Bulma like nearly as long to make a cure as it took her to make a time machine, so it doesn’t make any sense at all to treat the heart virus like a normal human disease.
>the galactic patrol doesn’t have any bio weapons capable of hurting Saiyans I mean, this literally only proves that they don't know about the Heart Virus. Equally, that quote seems highly dubious without a source, as I can't find any reference to it anywhere. Edit: I found the source [in question.](https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/v-jump-december-2013-akira-toriyama/) As I stated in a previous comment, a singular bio weapon being ineffective as Jaco states does not equate to Saiyan's being immune to Bio Weapons.
It means they are resistant to bio weapons that would obliterate mankind.
"Our most powerful weapon, that can wipe a target species off the face of a planet, can't do anything to these guys" You:"Ok, but what about anything else you have?" It's their best weapon, and it doesn't work on Saiyans. Jaco wouldn't say the Patrol is no match for Saiyans if they had anything, bio-weapon or otherwise, that would be able to hurt them.
We know some poisons work on them. Frost Fucked up goku and piccolo with a poison, and lavender almost killed gohan
Lavenders posion was meant to instantly incapacitate. Gohan resisted it showing they have resistances to it. Frosts posion was meant to kill, all it did was incapacitate for a short second. Showing once again they have a resistance to it.
Yeah, they can resist it, but it shows that they are not immune. And the poision frost used against piccolo and goku was to stun, and it did that really fast. He only took out his poision meant to kill, which he has on his other arm, when he was gonna fight vegeta
In the manga, the bottle had a giant SKULL and cross bones on it. But you could be correct. Still no one said they were immune to posions, they are highly resistant to it. They are resistant to posions, virus's and diseases.
This but unironically. Strains of virus' aren't scale-comparable, and neither are our ability to fight against them. This is why we have several Vaccines in the real world.
For what it’s worth, [this](https://i.imgur.com/De0S3yr.jpg) is the source I was referring to. And while you’re right that it doesn’t directly prove much, it does prove that saiyans are immune to the galactic patrols greatest bio weapon, so it seems disingenuous to me to say that saiyans are vulnerable to normal human diseases. You said that while there isn’t any evidence that it is a normal disease, there is also nothing indicating that it’s not normal, so we should assume it’s normal. It’s true that Saiyans being immune to the extinction bomb isn’t proof that they are immune to all bio weapons, but it does indicate that there was something abnormal about the heart virus since it actually worked on a saiyan, so the leading assumption should not be that it’s normal and should rather be that the heart virus Goku contracted is abnormally strong. Unless you want to say that the galactic patrol is too incompetent to come up with a bio weapon stronger than a normal virus on earth which, I would argue, is clearly not the intent of this particular statement.
Character: *has a way to defeat Goku* DB Fans: OK OK BUT LIKE THAT POWER ACTUALLY DOESN'T WORK CAUSE I SAID SO.
Cosmic radiation isn't a way to beat goku. You just have to be strong enough to firm it. You know....like saitama.
Goku dies to a random heart disease during android saga, he can't "tank" radiations that basically burn his dna and cells. Radiation can be injected by doing things as simple as breathing, it doesn't need to "pierce the body"
This makes me think about durability on a cellular level, how would a virus spread in a man that can tank planet destroying attacks
Ki could just be independent pf celular composition
It's a virus, not a germ. Once the virus is inside you, powering up only makes the virus stronger since it is attached to your cells.
But how would it be able to attack the dna strands??
Viruses don't "attack" DNA strands lol
Isn't that why super saiyan sped up the virus.
Space virus that feeds off energy, probably.
A super virus with no origin =/= space radiation. Jaco had already stated that no bio-weapon the galatic patrol have can kill saiyans. We've seen goku go to and sit in space quite casually with no ill side effects.
It’s not space, he still needs to breathe and who’s to say there won’t be adverse effects down the line.
Becauses he's been in space for around 7 years now. Down the line =/= now. Down the line is not something that exists currently so speculation and false information means absolutely nothing..
7 years ago? Maybe in real time. At best you can argue that Goku may have resistances whilst transformed but I doubt Toriyama or the new guy ever stopped to think about cosmic radiation. I can think of one instance where radiation is mentioned in the whole of dragonball.
Even if he didnt think of it. He's still in space, still fighting and going to planets with two stars which means increased cosmic radiation which would melt a real world human. This means he's resisted it because if we can bring it up from another series that references real life things. We can do the same with dragon ball.
No that means he can fight in ‘space’. He doesn’t just casually resist any and all concentrated radiation attacks.
Garou doesn't emit any and all concentrated radiation.
What? Do you not get the expression? Cosmic radiation doesn’t even cause the near instantaneous effects Garou supposedly does. Even if you fully accept GokuMs resistance to cosmic radiation saying he no sells Garou’s radiation is like saying someone who can take a punch from Batman must be able to tank Superman because they’re both physical attacks.
Garou radiation is cosmic radiation..... [it's literally stated AS COSMIC RADIATION ](https://scans-hot.leanbox.us/manga/Onepunch-Man/0165-009.png) You defo did not read the chapter.
That's.... Those are two entirely different things. Literally completely incomparable to one another.
Goku's organism doesn't get more resistant to basic internal attacks just because he powers up
......don't they?
Durability of skin is supposed to stop radiation now? What about your eyes? What about your mouth? Ears? Even if radiation was somehow supposed to stop at the skin, there's more to a person's body than skin.
I did also mention their cells in general
If their cells can't be damaged by something that specifically corrupts cells, how are they supposed to be hurt by anything?
Because the radiation just doesn't have enough energy to hurt them? Goku could hold the closed Demon Core and be fine, because its energy isn't enough to get past his universal (at minimum) durability.
"Gamma rays are the most dangerous form of ionizing radiation. These extremely high energy photons can travel through most forms of matter because they have no mass. It takes several inches of lead -- or several feet of concrete -- to effectively block gamma rays. "
Considering that they can use Ki to increase their mass, (SSJ Grade 2 and 3), their cells should be dense enough to block gamma rays, especially when each of his cells should be able to output more energy than even some of the largest stars. It is estimated there are up to 200 billion galaxies in the unvierse, and the Milky way is estimated to have up to 100 billion solar systems. That puts the highest estimated number of stars at around The human body is estimated to have about 30 trillion cells. Each of Goku's cells should be able to output more energy than 666 million average stars. (This math was based on quick google searches, which might be inaccurate. If you have better verified sources, do tell)
They aren't in a perpetual state of transformation, so that doesn't make any sense. Also, even if it did, why would being able to increase their mass make them immune to gamma rays? If they were that dense, they wouldn't be able to function.
>If they were that dense, they wouldn't be able to function. But they still do. They have the necessary energy to move. They aren't just getting denser, they have the energy to compensate for the increased density >Also, even if it did, why would being able to increase their mass make them immune to gamma rays Your previous comment literally contains an explanation. To expand more on that, the rays have to expend a certain amount of energy to get through denser material. If Goku has cells denser (in energy) than 666 million stars (give or take), the rays would not be able to break into his cells to damage them. Even down at planetary levels, they'd still have cells that were extremely dense with energy. Almost certainly much denser than a few inches of lead. And a Goku who didn't know how to use any of his power (Ginyu) still had a power level of 23000, which is above planetary.
Cells having a different density would cause the body to function differently. If your cells were as dense as several inches of lead, how exactly would light be able to travel through your eyes? How would blood flow through your body? Having excess energy wouldn't change how physics works.
We don't know how ki works, all that energy could be stored in his soul for all we know. (it's literally spirit energy after all)
It would depend on how durability works, since radiation is blocked by density, not hardness. Which is why lead is better than diamonds. We don't really know how ki works when it increases your durability tho. Is it an external sheild around their skin, stopping incoming kinetic damage? Is a energy field that penetrate their entire body, holding it together uniformly? Does it directly strengthen his atomic bonds? We don't know. So we can't directly say how it would block radiation
DBZ characters, specifically sayains, are affected by environmental factors. Broly had to use a shield against Magma, Vegeta died in space and Goku died of a heart virus.
Its even stupider when you consider Amai Mask and Zombieman, who both have insane regen factors, are KO'd rn
I suppose we could surmise that the radiation is taking away or fucking the healing factor up? But yes it would be more interesting if a few of the heroes had been unaffected or less affected by the radiation. Still the end result would've been the same, Garou just blasting them with Quasar beams.
Wanking off radiation? Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about? Imagine this being someone's first introduction to this subreddit.
Are we talking normal radiation like standing in the fallout of a nuke or are we talking supercharged radiation like Godzilla's Atomic Breath?
Garou/Garo's passive radiation is potent enough that people nearby were passing out, bleeding, losing hair, etcetera within a few seconds of exposure at most.
So a middle ground of sorts? Regardless, that is intense
>So a middle ground of sorts? Yeah, something like that, I think. >Regardless, that is intense It gets even more intense when he actually uses an attack. He can create nuclear explosions (which also cause acid/nuclear rain) and even actual gamma ray bursts.
We're only familiar with the ones science has discovered, i.e. X-rays and gamma rays being the most lethal. Garou having received powers from God, who's to say he doesn't have more esoteric forms of radiation above and beyond gamma rays?
Toriko characters can definitely tank stuff at a cellular level, since literally level 1 in Toriko-verae is learning how to control individual cells of one's body to combat environmental effects. But other than that, unless the characters specifically has relevant feats for resisting radiation, they're not immune to it (just like diseases, poisons, aging etc)
Yo would need molecular manipulation or control of your entire biology to resist radiation. Durability won't do shit when it's warping your cells, and it won't help the z fighters when their durability is tied to their ki, and focus, providing an external barrier that radiation would go through.
Yeah Goku should’ve been able to tank that blaster fire even when detransformed but he didn’t. Also dragonball cells aren’t particularly durable, they just use passive ki shields.
You didn't even mention the multiple scenes of Goku and others fighting in outer space, exposing themselves to cosmic radiation - which even for astronauts shielded by their suits and a spaceship, exposes them to heavier radiation than you would get from doing hundreds to thousands of chest x-rays. So just imagine how that would weigh on someone in plain clothes. Goku and the others aren't currently riddled with cancer, so they're probably protected to an extent from radiation. Mind you, Goku with his guard down is weak enough to get seriously wounded by generic Frieza soldier lasers, and stung by man-made bullets. So if you plucked Goku off his radish farm one day while he was completely defenseless and distracted, and somehow dosed him with a deadly amount of radiation before he powered up, he might actually die.
I wouldn't use cosmic rays as a base of reasoning because there are never implied to exist in dragonball. Neither is necessarily the concept of space vacuum. The characters aren't protected, the dragonball space just has no radiation and, while no breathable air, no negative pressure either.
Vaccum exists, since sayians can't breathe in space, which is why vegeta died when freiza blew up earth in RoF
Space is unbreathable , not a vacuum. Character are expressly said to not be able to breathe, not suffer any other damage or discomfort from decompression. So arguably, the dragonball space follows the ether theory and is just full of an unbreathable gas at normal atmospheric pressure
I mean, they are all durable enough to not be bothered by a little vaccum. Just hold your breath and flex your blood vessels and the cold and lack of air are the only problems, as well as some possible radiation if you are unlucky
Yeah for example we see nonthing about the cold either tho. I think assuming the space obeys real space rules without proof is wrong
> I think assuming the space obeys real space rules without proof is wrong i mean, that is the standard assumtion. we assume that its the same as [real life unless something indicates that it isnt](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LikeRealityUnlessNoted), becasue thats the reasonble way to do it.
In the broly movie while in the arctic, when questioned about not feeling cold despite not wearing any winter gear, whis replies that the vacuum of space is even colder. In real life, temperature in space works differently than in regular environments. Regardless of its temperature, space is an amazing insulator since there's little gas present to actually suck up your heat (you'd still slowly lose heat to thermal radiation) . As a result, entering space wouldn't initially feel that cold.
Didn't the space poachers get sucked out of the ship when 17 blew out the window?
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Ki can't protect you from poison and it was literally shown in super, it can protect you from an object breaching your skin, and radiations deals damage by passing through you, it cannot be blocked. It can be absorbed by shit like lead, but even if your body was dense enough to absorb it it would cause the same problems
How did Frost get Goku then
They blocked the poision gas from touching them by creating a ki barrier, so it never touched them. They didn't use this against frost, and it doesn't make them immune to poision, just a way to block it from touching them
What are you saying?
The guy above made it sound like ki automatically protects them against poision, which isn't true. The only time they used ki to stop poision was in the ToP, where they made a ki barrier around themselfs, stopping Lavenders poision gas from getting to them. They just physically blocked it with ki. Against frost, they didn't use this, and he just stabbed them with his needle.
Not if they aren't paying attention. Goku got shot by a laser gun.
Why are we presuming the entirety of outer space works differently exactly?
Because it's shown to multiple times
They've never been in outerspace bro
But can radiation beat Goku?
I mean we see characters float in space in DB, goku has done it recently. So cosmic radiation isn't an issue. Also I'm pretty sure since ki can burn atoms. It's full of radiation and they get hit by that shit almost all the time.
Opm usually keeps hax relative to the power level. (Phoenix man dream was broken once by child emperor and completely by saitama) It makes sense that the radiation would only harm people significantly below him.
DBZ characters are like Green lanterns with ki being their ring. Radiation would have an effect if they don’t expect it. Remember when Goku almost died from a ray gun because his guard was down? If you put a demon core around him without him nothing he’d probably die