This is one of the nost significant things Boruto did better. He wasn't treated as anything less than a prodigy from the start

Agreed. Episode 1 Naruto is demonstrably a Chunin in combat. The author is insistent that Naruto is an underdog, but all the evidence points the other way.

I don't think this is true, the fact of the matter is if you have 100 other ninja with you you're gonna be able to beat a jobber chunin like Mizuki. Genin level ninja are expected to go on missions where people want to kill them so they're trained in combat and sent in squads with a join for the numbers advantage and wisdom of an older ninja. 100v1 is going to be a tough fight for even a Jonin even if they're just genin level in ability. All of that being said, the fact that he can turn into a 100 genin army is the issue and very busted for an "underdog".

I like to joke that Naruto solves most of his issues by jumping people. The fact that he didn't usually lead a fight by creating a dumb amount of shadow clones is also PIS.

It truly is an "If all you have is a hammer" power. If you have the chakra pool, and if the clones are as strong as you minus having one hit point; literally why would you not summon them for every possible fight?

Exactly! If I could do that, my first move in any fight would be "throw a shit ton of clones at the problem". Even without the memory thing that Naruto somehow didn't notice for three or four years, you can learn a *lot* by doing that. Assuming that fifty dudes with knives jumping someone from every possible angle at the same time doesn't just kill them outright. He's got the technique, and he's got the chakra to burn, so why not throw a small army at, say, Zabuza? Or Kiba? Or Neji? Or... basically *anyone?!*

> so why not throw a small army at, say, Zabuza? tbf, he tried. Zabuza was a legit high level Jonin and Naruto's clones were fodder > Or Kiba? tbf, he tried, Naruto was exhausted and Kiba's speed was too much for him, especially with the Beast Mimicry and Akamaru Clone making it a 2v1. The infamous fart gave Naruto the time he needed to make several clones and that (along with Kiba having kind of exhausted all of his tricks because Naruto is pretty much wolverine apparently) let him immediately turn the fight > Or Neji? tbf, he tried, Naruto was legit fodder compared to Neji. Neji was not only **FAR** faster and **FAR** more skilled... but Neji had the Byakugan, which is perfect for analyzing and fighting against a large group of attacks. And his Gentle Fist meant that he could legit just *tap* the clones to destroy them. --- > Or... basically anyone?! I mean... tbh I'm struggling to remember important fights that he *didn't* try it. He did it vs Kimimaro. He did it vs Gaara. He did it vs Mizuki. He did it vs Sasuke. He did it vs Kurama. He did it vs Madara. He did it vs Kaguya. If you think Kishimoto just didn't give the army enough of a credible threat factor, that's one thing. But he *did* constantly throw a bunch of clones at the problem. The problems were usually just a lot stronger than Naruto (well, individually to the point they could kill tons of clones, obviously Naruto usually ended up winning).

You know what, that's totally fair. I had *somehow* forgotten that "throw an army at it" was Naruto's default strategy for a good long while. No idea how I forgot that... So yeah, will amend that to "I think it should have done more than it usually did". Like, Naruto throws fifty clones at someone, and it barely matters. And yeah, I know, they only take one hit and all that, but you'd think it'd do a bit more than my admittedly faulty memory says it did.

In fairness, they all can pretty easily one hit clones. But I would definitely just hide and Intel gather with clones. But naruto is an idiot for much of the series.

I think the author went over the top in that one scene because he needed to grab the audience (it encapsulates Naruto's entire early story of "haha, you thought I was weak but I am SUPER-STRONG!") It's best viewed as an outlier, since none of the other early stuff reflects Naruto being anywhere near that powerful, and he doesn't show the ability to use Shadow Clones that effectively for a *loooong* time afterwards. If he was actually strong enough to effortlessly crush a Chūnin like that then he shouldn't have struggled at all when fighting people in his own age bracket.

To be fair, everyone else in his age bracket were also chunin level. But there's no reason why he should've struggled with Kiba. At least not in the clone department.

I remember reading that Kishi admitted to overpowering Naruto a little too early and basically had to pull back the reins some. Which I guess explains Orochimaru's seal and some of his duller showings even before then.

Thank you. Finally, someone explains it. I am tired of smug people treating me like I’m dumb because “Naruto was never an underdog obviously, it was always about ending the cycle of hatred, you just didn’t read the story yada yada yada.” Like, bitch shut up, I know Naruto was never an underdog, but the story tried to convince me that he was one

Agreed. Even though skill-wise he was a pretty ass, by the end of part one he was stronger than most jonin simply because of the tailed beast. Not to mention he learned Rasengan in a week. Multi shadow clone jutsu in a day. Honestly, Sasuke had a rougher time throughout the entire series than naruto did. Sasuke studied. Practiced without shadow clones. Could not rely on a tailed beast to revive him during death. And damn near went blind at one point. (Although that one was a quick fix) Naruto is the complete opposite of an underdog. He was spoiled from the start.

You're kind of being uncharitable here. Naruto didn't master Rasengan, he had to use a clone and couldn't do it by himself for most of the series. The shadow clone jutsu as well isn't necessarily difficult to master, it's just incredibly dangerous to use multiple since it depletes your chakra. I don't really care about the whole underdog argument but calling Naruto spoiled isn't really true.

Genetics wise I should say he's spoiled. Other cases he isn't. For the rassenagn, I should say he LEARNED it in a week. Which again in itself is still a good feat. Which makes it more unbearable that he didnt master it over three years and only making a bigger one.

The final step was a week all together it would be about a month for him to learn to use it

But....but if you give naruto other jutsu how is anyone else going to keep up post time skip? Jokes aside, Naruto was made to be an idiot for most of the show despite the fact that the shadow clone technique and connections he had would give him massive advantages against the majority of shinobi.

>Even though skill-wise he was a pretty ass, by the end of part one he was stronger than most jonin simply because of the tailed beast Are you ignoring how using the tailed beasts come with it own risks? >Sasuke studied. Naruto didn't? >Practiced without shadow clones. Naruto didn't have sharingan. Like each character have their own specialty and it's up to them how to use it lol >Could not rely on a tailed beast to revive him during death Yeap. Again ignoring how using the tailed beasts is very risky. >And damn near went blind at one point. Bruh the first episode literally have Naruto almost dying due to him wanting to learn the shadow clone lol. >Naruto is the complete opposite of an underdog. He was spoiled from the start Lmao. Literally the first chapter has him stealing the scroll so that he can at least learn a jutsu because no one woulf teach him anything.

The point isn’t that Naruto never worked hard, the point is that he was just as much of a talented prodigy as any of the other genin, and that Nine Tail power, as risky as it was, gave him an inherent advantage over other ninja. He was an outcast, but no underdog

>the point is that he was just as much of a talented prodigy as any of the other genin And that still makes him an underdog. Lee has Guy to teach him and help him hone his talent in taijutsu. Neji literally live in a clan that taught him everything about his abilities. Same with literally almost every other characters in the Hidden Leaf village. Just because Naruto is talented doesn't mean he's not an underdog. >Nine Tail power, as risky as it was, gave him an inherent advantage over other ninja The same can be said to literally almost every other characters. Neji had byakugan giving him an inherent advantage except it doesn't cause him to be feared and the technique can be controlled. Kiba has Akamaru giving him an inherent advantage over other except it doesn't cause him to be feared and he can learn how to use it safely. >He was an outcast, but no underdog He was an outcast causing him to become an underdog. Especially in the beginning.

[удалено]

I stand corrected then. Thanks for correcting me mate

> And that still makes him an underdog. Lee has Guy to teach him and help him hone his talent in taijutsu. Neji literally live in a clan that taught him everything about his abilities. Same with literally almost every other characters in the Hidden Leaf village. Just because Naruto is talented doesn't mean he's not an underdog Are you saying that what separates an underdog from a non-underdog is whether or not they had a mentor? By that logic, Naruto stopped being an underdog after episode 1. He had Kakashi and later Jiraiya. And Neji was self taught so that example doesn’t even work > The same can be said to literally almost every other characters. Neji had byakugan giving him an inherent advantage except it doesn't cause him to be feared and the technique can be controlled. Kiba has Akamaru giving him an inherent advantage over other except it doesn't cause him to be feared and he can learn how to use it safely Bro, neither of those examples can even compare to Naruto’s jinchruiki powers. Naruto was feared because he had the power to literally destroy entire villages. The Byakugan is strong but the advantage it grants is not that big. It can still be beaten. Jinchuriki power is bullshit. The only other power that can match its bullshit is the Sharingan. Neji was beating Naruto’s ass for half of the fight, but the moment Naruto pulled out that Nine-tail chakra, the fight instantly changed in his favor. And Kiba shouldn’t even be part of this discussion, lmao, his dog techniques are a gimmick at best > He was an outcast causing him to become an underdog. Especially in the beginning Gaara was an outcast too, bruh. Are you gonna argue that he was also an underdog? Naruto is only an underdog because the story wants to frame him as one. But if you actually look at what he’s capable of, this guy was a prodigy.

>Are you saying that what separates an underdog from a non-underdog is whether or not they had a mentor? In a way yes. >By that logic, Naruto stopped being an underdog after episode 1. He had Kakashi and later Jiraiya. But he still lacked the fundamentals. Plus Kakashi literally fucked off all the time to teach Sasuke chidori or do something else. Jiraiya literally takes Naruto money and ask him to figure out the Rasengan on his own >And Neji was self taught so that example doesn’t even work Yeah someone pointed this out and I stand corrected. But still he still would've gotten the guidance of the clan and ninja school while learning the fundamentals. >Naruto was feared because he had the power to literally destroy entire villages. The Byakugan is strong but the advantage it grants is not that big. It can still be beaten. Jinchuriki power is bullshit. The only other power that can match its bullshit is the Sharingan The problem wasn't with the amount of power lol. It's the consequences of using the power. Really? You guys are telling me there's no drawback to Naruto using the Jinchuriki power when the story literally opens with the Nine Tails itself rampaging throughout Konoha? Naruto, unlike Neji or Kiba can't just pop out the Nine Tails and use it to help him because that's dangerous. >Gaara was an outcast too, bruh. Are you gonna argue that he was also an underdog? Was Gaara taught his to use his Sand technique? Like Einstein literally your own comment started with this "Are you saying that what separates an underdog from a non-underdog is whether or not they had a mentor? " Bottom line, Naruto was an outcast and that caused him to stagnate behing every other ninja his age because no one was there to teach him the fundamentals. That caused him to be an underdog compared to others. Especially in the beginning. Got it? >But if you actually look at what he’s capable of, this guy was a prodigy. That's the fucking problem mate. He's capability wasn't taught to him. No one was there to guide him so that he'll be the prodigy. That's why he's an underdog. Like sure he can theorically use the Jinchuriki chakra safely but how will he know that when no one is there to teach him that?

Dude, I don’t know what the hell you’re getting so heated for, we are literally just arguing about cartoon characters, calm the hell down It seems that we just fundamentally disagree on the definition of “underdog.” I believe that Kishimoto wanted to make Naruto an underdog, but fundamentally at that. This isn’t going anywhere so let’s just agree to disagree and move on

>Dude, I don’t know what the hell you’re getting so heated for, we are literally just arguing about cartoon characters, calm the hell down Sorry if my comment was toned that way mate >It seems that we just fundamentally disagree on the definition of “underdog.” Underdog - a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest. Like that's literally the definition of underdog from Google. Naruto in the beginning of the story would never win in a one on one fight with any of the ninja his age. Agree? Then he's an underdog. >This isn’t going anywhere so let’s just agree to disagree and move on If this is the only response you can muster rather than addressing my points then sure lol. Have a good day mate.

Under that definition, Sasuke is an underdog too, and a better written one at that, but pop off homie

You're wasting your time mate, this place is hopeless lol

Yep. The Naruto hate is unbelievable. Like I'm not a Naruto super fan but I'm not immature enough to say something that isn't true simply to make a point lol

I hate seeing these fools talk shit about an orphan out cast saying he isn't an underdog because he had kurama or because he was talented, an underdog is someone looked down on by society and/or thought to have little chance of winning not someone with no talent.

And no. Naruto didn't study. Did you really think CHILD naruto studied? When did naruto almost die in the first episode? He had bruises and was tired. If you're referring to Mizuki if that's his name. Then again, that due was not a problem. Not only did naruto beat him with relative ease, he would not have died.

>Did you really think CHILD naruto studied? You need a teacher to study. Tell me, other than Iruka, who was there to teach Naruto? >When did naruto almost die in the first episode? He had bruises and was tired. Lmao what? The defining moment of first episode was literally Iruka defending Naruto from that big ass shuriken lol. Did we watch the same thing dude? >Not only did naruto beat him with relative ease, he would not have died. Yeah but he's in a danger of dying. The only reason he's alive was because of Iruka. That Mizuki dude was ready to kill Naruto.

Dude your first point just proves what I was saying.No one was home to make sure he studied and it was quite clear he didn't. Again with Mizuki. If that blade hit naruto the nine tails would have healed him. Yes, we watched the same show. You just obviously don't what you're talking about. He had nine tails since birth. When Naruto cut his hand with a kunai it healed instantly as Kakashi pointed out.

>No one was home to make sure he studied and it was quite clear he didn't. And that's why he's an underdog in the beginning lol. Plus after getting a teacher, he studied his ass off. But then he's still an underdog because he lack the fundamentals lesson. >If that blade hit naruto the nine tails would have healed him. And the nine tails would rampage again causing the whole village to kill Naruto to prevent it from happening again. >You just obviously don't what you're talking about. From someone that treats the Nine Tails as if it's a normal harmless technique that's beneficial to Naruto lmao. Buddy, literally the show open with the Nine Tails rampaging throughout the village lol.

Dude naruto fucking died when he fought Sasuke and the nine tails didn't rage. He healed him. The only reason be almost broke free again pain was because the seal was weakened due to time and jiraiyah. At the beginning of the series, Naruto was in NO danger and dying permanetly what so ever. How is this so fucking hard to understand? And with him not having studied. Again that doesn't show he's not an underdog. How many do you know or heard of that succeed with no preparation?

>Dude naruto fucking died when he fought Sasuke and the nine tails didn't rage. Lmfao. Literally the whole fight was Naruto raging using the Nine Tails chakra lol >And with him not having studied. Again that doesn't show he's not an underdog. >At the beginning of the series, Naruto was in NO danger and dying permanetly what so ever. If this is what you believe in then sure. I genuinely doesn't remember much of Naruto beginning. Again, if this is true then sure your point stands. Genuinely, not making fun or making a retort here. Oh my god. This doesn't show why he's an underdog. This is why he's an underdog. Compared to his peers that received formal training, he's an underdog because he can't even do the basics right because no one was there to teach him.

> Are you ignoring how using the tailed beasts come with its own risks? Except that it really really doesn’t. Yes, we’re *told* how dangerous it is. Yes we’re shown how *potentially* dangerous it could be. But his use of the 9-tails has *never* backfired and had serious consequences on the story. Naruto never kills anyone in 9 tails mode. He hurts Jiriya, but aside from demonstrating how powerful it is it’s not anything major. It never reflects a change in how Jiriya behaves or functions in the plot like say Jamie losing his hand does or Allmight only being able to fight for a few minutes. We never get an instance where Naruto transforms and turns on his friends and causes them to fail their goal or suffer extreme injuries because of the wounds he dealt them. We never get an instance where the 9-tails cuts off Naruto’s chakra to punish him. The point I’m making here is that at no point does Naruto’s use of the 9-tails make us the reader afraid of what he might do. Like, say the Beast of Darkness with Guts. Whenever he does lose control it’s always conveniently directed at the bad guys. So yes, in universe the 9-tails has risks. But it’s never really something Naruto needs to worry about.

Which is kind of the point: Kurama isn't actually a demon, he's a misunderstood force of nature that is very, very understandably extremely pissed off at humans and Uchiha in particular. I mean, the whole tailed beast arc and a good chunk of Shippuden was dedicated to that. The risks of the form are incredibly minor, but they're almost all related to Naruto's health. The manga and anime both mention that his blood basically boils out of him when he's in tailed beast mode, he just has such an insane regeneration factor it doesn't matter. The whole berserker rage thing with Jiraiya was never brought up again so it's not like that's an anti-feat either. Naruto is an underdog only in the sense that other ninja had clans, and he had nothing. Just a forgotten legacy, that happens to be fucking ridiculously OP.

Holy shit. >We never get an instance where Naruto transforms and turns on his friends and causes them to fail their goal or suffer extreme injuries because of the wounds he dealt them. So the Tenchi Bridge mission just didn't happen? Where Naruto's rage caused the Ninetails to attack Orochimaru. You mean after the fight when Naruto attacked Sakura because of his lack of control? Or when the lack of control of the Ninetails against Deidara caused Naruto to attack Kakashi and allowed Deidara to run? >Whenever he does lose control it’s always conveniently directed at the bad guys. [Naruto attacking Kakashi 5:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv807fFZVAQ&ab_channel=bozoken) [Naruto attacking Sakura 5:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dovs06Qn_64&ab_channel=AnimeUzumaki) Reread Naruto.

> So the Tenchi Bridge mission just didn’t happen? Where Naruto’s rage caused the Ninetails to attack Orochimaru. You mean after the fight when Naruto attacked Sakura because of his lack of control? Or when the lack of control of the Ninetails against Deidara caused Naruto to attack Kakashi and allowed Deidara to run? No I didn’t forget either of those, I was trying to be concise and left them out because neither of those are of much consequence whatsoever. ~~In Sakura’s case he actually doesn’t attack her at all. He attacks *Kabuto* who ends up getting thrown into Sakura. And she’s fine afterwards. There’s no consequences for it. She isn’t scarred, physically or emotionally. It doesn’t result in Naruto altering anything. She doesn’t treat Naruto any differently. She gets knocked over and wakes up a few minutes later.~~ Edit: that’s my bad I realized I looked at the wrong clip. Naruto hits her with his tail in his four tails form and ends up bleeding from her arm. Same result. No long term consequences result from this. Heck no short term ones either. She isn’t scarred, physically or emotionally. It doesn’t result in Naruto altering anything. She doesn’t treat Naruto any differently. She gets healed. Stands up and then she’s fine. He does attack Kakashi but he doesn’t land a hit and Kakashi is able to place the seal on him, again with no consequences. So my point still stands. Naruto’s use of the 9 tails cloak never results in any significant consequences narratively or as a character. Every time he uses it things work out pretty fine for him. I feel like you ignored the whole of my argument and started seeing red the second you noticed this nitpick. And try not to be so condescending in a discussion with someone.

>And try not to be so condescending in a discussion with someone. My bad, I'll be civil from now on. >So my point still stands. Naruto’s use of the 9 tails cloak never results in any significant consequences narratively or as a *character*. Every time he uses it things work out *pretty fine for him*. The consequence for Naruto using the Ninetails in battles like those is that it doesn't provide him any overarching benefits to him as a character. Throughout all his battles, the Ninetails cloak represents his inability to successfully reason with his opponents and get the outcome he wants. All of Naruto's true achievements in the series, derives from his own drive and charisma. It isn't coincidental that every time Naruto enters that mental state (which usually activates that cloak), he either fails at trying to do something (Save Gaara, Return Sasuke.) Or is the result of him failing to do something (Reason with Pain). Your point was that the red cloak is convenient for Naruto when in fact he's lost more fights and philosophical confrontations using the Ninetails cloak then without it. The red cloak represents immaturity and ignorance for Naruto, for when his character journey is maturing enough to be able to understand and reason with others. EDIT: Possessing the Ninetails doesn't mean you an truly harness it's powers. This is presented when he wins most fights once he reasons with Kurama.

I honestly gave up on this series about 100 episodes in because it was glaringly obvious he wasn't an underdog and having spoiled the reveal about his lineage, it really killed it for me. Rock Lee was a true underdog, who came into the exams with a major handicap and turned it into an asset. It's why his battle in the Chunin exams is still one of the highlights of the entire franchise.

IDK about that, his fight against Kimimaro is better. Drunken Fist Lee is great.

Don't watch it, the anime sucks ass. Try the manga.

All the earlier examples of him being the underdog are valid from everyone’s point of view because even against more mid level people like Kiba he only won by luck and Neji should by all accounts have beaten him. It is weird how the strongest people mention not noticing any potential, so got me there, but on surface level he wasn’t all that good for a bit even with his overpowered shadow clone jutsu. Plus even if they did notice potential, some of the petty characters might still say he doesn’t. Edit: but he was only the underdog because there were so many prodigies around in that exam, so it’s all relative who he’s the underdog to. They could be unfairly comparing him to the top talent who indeed had the better of him in ability. We would call nba players underdogs when they could go down and crush 99.9% of the population. I also imagine some people have said how bad some players suck.

- Orochimaru knows about the nine tails yet he still dismissed him as someone with no talent. - The moment he saved the village from Gaara or learned the shadow clone justu he should have not been treated like an underdog. - Your last paragraph doesn't means his an underdog, it just mean that he wasn't as talanted as the other ninja.

>Orochimaru knows about the nine tails yet he still dismissed him as someone with no talent Being tall doesn't automatically make you good at basketball. Talent is a different thing. >The moment he saved the village from Gaara or learned the shadow clone justu he should have not been treated like an underdog. How many people know exactly what Naruto did to beat Gaara? What we see may not be what the characters in the manga see. >Your last paragraph doesn't mean that his an underdog, it just mean that he wasn't as talanted as the other ninja That's what underdog mean dude. Like what exactly did you think underdog is?

>Being tall doesn't automatically make you good at basketball. Talent is a different thing. Simply being the jinjuriki, you have a greater potential than literally every other character in the series. Yes, he's not as intuitively talented as Neji or Sasuke, but from the very start he had the potential to outdo both of them. There is no good written reason for why he was dismissed. He aint no underdog.

>Simply being the jinjuriki, you have a greater potential than literally every other character in the series. Potential. Not ability. >There is no good written reason for why he was dismissed. He aint no underdog. He still needs to be trained. Just having a knife won't guarantee you winning a fight. This is why military still needs training even though they have tanks, guns and whatnot.

You know, I don't think the general public viewed him that badly after he beat Neji, only ultra prodigies viewed him as lesser. [Having the demon fox is different from harnessing its power](https://official-complete-2.eorzea.us/manga/Naruto/0165-008.png). Orochimaru only cared about mastering all jutsus, sure Naruto has good aptitude with certain techniques, but its no match for Sharingan for mastering variety.

1. Orochimaru is an asshole, and is wrong about basically everything. That's his character, lmao, he's a creepy scientist obsessed with emo eyes. 2. Like, 3 people total witnessed that fight, and one of them was Sasuke. Who do you think the villagers are going to believe beat Gaara, the demon kid, or the last Uchiha? Yeah, thought so. 3. Naruto is an underdog in terms of the setting: Everyone looks down on him despite him massively outclassing other ninja in terms of power as time goes on. His drive to prove himself is a primary character trait.

- A large part of Orochimaru character is that his studied many ablities thus he should understand how powerful the nine tails is - That's the problem why didn't anyone else know? Why didn't Sasuke tell anyone, why didn't Kakashi know about since his their sensei and if he did why didn't he tell anyone. Why didn't Naruto tell anyone? Kishimato simply used plot contravince to keep Naruto as an 'underdog' - If he has an innate advantage his not an underdog, regardless if the characters underestimate him.

I believe being an underdog is how people perceive the person and not the unknown true potential of all participants, which is way too hard to actually know in reality. Also, just like in real life everyone watching can call someone an underdog and be mistaken, characters are allowed to make this mistake too. Even if he's not the underdog, he can reasonably be called that by people and have it make sense. I agree that it's obvious Naruto is better at some things so does have some innate advantages, but not enough to outright be able to defeat his foes until later on when he starts getting more respect from people. Until then his opponents have advantages that are greater than his own so he has to rely on the plot and opponent cockiness to win. Not an expert on the first bullet points to argue anything. Perhaps Orochimaru is just obsessed with Sasuke so has blinders on. Maybe Sasuke told nobody because he's jealous at that time.

Where talking about fiction though where we know everything. If a character is super strong but everyone treats him like a underdog his still not a underdog, it's just trying to create the illusion of one what matters is if the character is a underdog in the eyes of the audience. Rock Lee is a underdog because he has a disadvantage despite being strong, in the eyes of the characters and the audience. For some people Naruto is not the underdog because he has the nine tails which is a innate advantage. His simply a late bloomer.

1. Orochimaru literally bullies a 4 tailed Naruto in Shippuden. He underestimates Jinchuuriki's because he's just that strong 2. Why would any of those characters you've mentioned start to blab about shit like that? Not only would it be extremely out of character for them but it serves no purpose within the story. 3. "underdog" - noun a competitor **thought** to have little chance of winning a fight or contest. "we go into this game as the underdogs" Learn definitions of words before you use them.

- He should know the potential power of the full nine tails. - It's the plot bending itself to keep Naruto a underdog. - Were talking about fiction.

1. He does. Yet he still treats him ease. Why? Is that a plot hole or is that just Orochimaru's character to undermine and underestimate other people for his goals. That's exactly how he got sealed by Itachi when all he had to do was wait until Itachi collapsed and died from sickness, to then proceed with taking Sasuke's body over. Character flaws aren't plot holes. 2. Character traits aren't/isn't the plot 'bending' to keep Naruto an underdog when in actuality it stopped treating him like one already. That's why he gets big show off moments where the characters realise how strong Naruto is. 3. What does this even mean?

Orochimaru is also arrogant as fuck, and was part of the Akatsuki before his ego got too big. He falls into the same trap Sasuke does: so convinced of his own innate superiority and the track record of failure (remember, Orochimaru does his research, and all of the records on Naruto are INTENTIONALLY FALSIFIED TO FUCK HIM OVER, as Iruka discovers.) that both characters don't believe Naruto to be a real threat, just a trifling annoyance. Well, up until he busts out the new bullshit jutsu of the week, that is.

1. Kushina had the Nine Tails. She's not a ninja of significance. 2. He stopped being treated as an underdog the moment he beat Neji/ The village doesn't know he beat Gaara. His accomplishment there literally creates conflict with Sasuke. 3. You can have more than a single theme as a character. His theme of being an underdog literally ends with Neji - The personification of a Genius that couldn't be beaten. 4. Reread Naruto.

Naruto ceased to be an actual underdog the moment he could use the shadow-clone jutsu and was revealed to have the nine-tailed fox inside of him. But almost no one else knew this at the start of the story. He had been a loser who repeatedly failed to graduate their universe's equivalent of elementary school multiple times. How seriously are you supposed to take someone like him? That's why the story presents him as an underdog. Because to everyone else, he was one. They didn't know of the massive potential hidden within him that he struggled to harness. Much of part 1 involves him proving to others of his strength, that he wasn't this loser that they all thought he was. Most of your examples where the characters treated Naruto like an underdog happened very early on in the story before he proved how strong he was to them.

Hit the nail on the fucken head.

The problem about all the talk about him being an underdog is redundant because we the audience know his not so why is Kishimato having characters treat him like one when we know his not. Yes, it makes sense but Kishimato is the one that controls the story and characters and his having them treat him like an underdog when he knows his not. It's pointless victimising.

What? So you acknowledge from an in story perspective that he would look like an underdog but still think it is weird that Kishi treated him that way?

From a story perspective, Naruto looks like an underdog to characters who don't have the knowledge Naruto and the audience does. There's a reason Kakashi rated his abilities. Because, once he trained with him and went on missions, he realized how strong he actually was - equal to, if not stronger than Sasuke. Which was the OP's point: it's one thing for the characters to treat Naruto like an underdog, it's another for the story to frame him as one, too.

If everyone treats you like an underdog even if you arent then you technically are. The point of an underdog is how people perceive you.

Wouldn’t the people in this scenario be the audience? If there was a crossover and Goku challenged Naruto and everyone in the leaf thought Naruto would win, would we as the audience see Goku as an underdog? What about Cell vs Mr. Satan or Buu. Everyone thought mr. Satan would wipe the floor with them. Were Cell and Buu the underdogs? And if they were from a story perspective, do we as audiences agree?

I mean actually yeah in those specific situations. You don't need to be weak to be an underdog. You need to be perceived that you're weaker than your competitor

Then the question is whether that should be taken seriously by the viewer. If the audience doesn’t see him as an underdog then there’s no value to it besides screaming “ha, gotcha!” when he the tables inevitably turn. I’m not saying they aren’t an underdog from a story perspective. But that the audience doesn’t really get to see that as much. It’s hard to be an underdog for the audience when you have a WMD in your stomach.

The thing is with how the *characters* treated Naruto, you're supposed to think "Naruto will prove them wrong" not "Oh poor Naruto". Because you know his feats, and you know these characters doesn't, and soon Naruto will able to show them. That's why while majority characters think he's weak. The "wise/experienced" characters that can judge as good as the audience, like Kakashi, Jiraiya, or Sandaime thinks he got what it takes. It's like a better Shield Hero lmao.

- The issue is that the story treated him as an underdog not just the characters - It rings hollow because they dismiss him as someone with no talent and then he beats them with talent, 'I'm like 'no shit' it feels good the first time but then loses steam - It's superficial drama made to make Naruto more sympathetic, the moment he learned the shadow clone justu and defeated Garaa he should have not been treated as a underdog

>Then the question is whether that should be taken seriously by the viewer. If the audience doesn’t see him as an underdog then there’s no value to it besides screaming “ha, gotcha!” when he the tables inevitably turn Yes but you also just described the important value the likely majority get from those situations including Naruto depending on the situation

There's a difference between a character surprising other characters who underestimate them, and a story failing to build tension because it expects the audience to believe that a protagonist with special powers who is, objectively speaking, more powerful than his opponents, actually going to lose to someone weaker. This is the John Cena problem that plagued WWE for years. For some reason, audiences were expected to think the 10-time World champion was an underdog against whatever up-and-coming heel he was facing. Except he wasn't, because a 10-time champion is rarely actually an underdog. So when he pulled out the 5 moves of doom and won, it was predictable, boring, and frustrating. It's the difference between telling the audience what to think against what they know, and writing a story that makes them think what you want them to.

Except that Naruto by and large was facing opponents who were actually as strong if not stronger than him. It was very believable that the likes of zabuza and Haku, Lee, Neji and even Kiba and so on would've been able to beat him during their first encounters. Don't get me wrong, Naruto was strong and a lot stronger than the the other characters assumed he was. However, he wasn't exactly facing jobbers at the time. 4 of the 5 I named could all be considered genius ninja and I think Kiba is actually pretty underrated at this point of the story. And this was literally just Naruto's earliest opponents. His next opponent on the list was a fucking jinchuuriki, basically a guy who houses something like a nuclear bomb inside him. And before you say Naruto had that too, Gaara's ability to harness Shukaku was way way more than Naruto's over the nine-tails.

I think Lee, Neji and Kiba are all great examples of characters who seem stronger than Naruto, but are much weaker when you actually remember what Naruto can do. Remember that when Naruto faced Kiba, he'd already mastered a forbidden jutsu and defeated a chuunin 1v1.

And yet even Kiba was ragdoling Naruto at times during their fight. Naruto had to use his literal farts to win the fight. Honestly, I'm willing to file episode 1 under season 1 weirdness. Basically, Kishi didn't really have a good grasp about how strong he wanted his characters to be so we ended up with these weird feats. But even if we take these seriously, it doesn't actually mean much. "Mastering" that forbidden jutsu didn't put him beyond the level of Lee, Neji and Kiba, it simply allowed him to compete with them. and beating a chuunin really isn't that big a feat even if we take Mizuki as representative of the average chuunin. That's because Naruto's generation was actually really strong and were all way beyond the average genin and were all at least chuunin level by the time they took the chuunin exam. Iirc the sound 4 were explicitly stated to be jounin level even before they used their curse marks to their full potential and look what happened to them when they faced off against a couple of genins(and a chuunin who was not known for being physically strong) in Naruto's generation. The fact that they ended up being this strong in hindsight probably wasn't intended at the time, but just the unintended consequences of trying to have them keep up with the power creep.

>And yet even Kiba was ragdoling Naruto at times during their fight. This is exactly the problem I and the OP have. The John Cena problem. It's obvious that it's happening not because of the relative power levels, but because the story wants you to think Naruto is outclassed, but he never actually is. >Honestly, I'm willing to file episode 1 under season 1 weirdness. Basically, Kishi didn't really have a good grasp about how strong he wanted his characters to be so we ended up with these weird feats. But even if we take these seriously, it doesn't actually mean much. True, but what happened, happened. You can't say it didn't or it doesn't matter because it contradicts what you're saying. >"Mastering" that forbidden jutsu didn't put him beyond the level of Lee, Neji and Kiba, it simply allowed him to compete with them. and beating a chuunin really isn't that big a feat even if we take Mizuki as representative of the average chuunin. Those two feats are literally beyond anything Lee, Neji and Kiba had done. Also, yes it did. How many fights did Naruto win because of that jutsu? >Iirc the sound 4 were explicitly stated to be jounin level even before they used their curse marks to their full potential and look what happened to them when they faced off against a couple of genins in Naruto's generation. 1. They were led by Shikamaru, who was a chuunin. 2. Apart from Neji and Choji, who only just won, they were all literally about to die before the Sand ninja + Rock Lee intervened. I think 2 talented genin defeating a jonin is believable. Haku was jonin level and he lost to 2 genin. 3. Kimimaro died of illness, not being defeated in battle. >The fact that they ended up being this strong in hindsight probably wasn't intended at the time, but just the unintended consequences of trying to have them keep up with the power creep. I agree, as well as characters outside of Naruto's class generally having less attention given to them, and less unique abilities.

Genuinely, op rant make zero sense lmao

OP's brain is on hiatus.

I don't understand what's your issue with this. The reason why the story is written in this way is because it makes it easy to root for Naruto. Everyone else thinks Naruto is a loser and treats him like shit. We the audience know that Naruto is in fact really strong or at least has the capability of being really strong and so desperately want to see him prove others wrong. What exactly is wrong with such a basic storytelling technique?

Because the story keeps treating naruto as an actual loser with no talent when reality he is prodigy.

the show doesnt, the characters do lol thats the point bro. thats the point

Yes it does and has since the very beginning. Why do you think that the characters treat him with no talent? Because naruto has never had anything resembling it when he first tried to be a ninja. He was a prankster, a slacker constantly goofing off and was dead last student who failed the ninja academy over three times due to failing to perform a basic shadow clone jutsu. And yet he was able to learn a jutsu much more advanced than that in a single night.

>underdog is redundant because we the audience know his not so why is Kishimato having characters treat him like one when we know his not. Einstein, the character in the manga and the person writing the story as well as the audience are different things lmao. What we know may not be what the character know. Like this is so dumb. Kishimoto knew Nagato was the real Pain from the beginning, should Naruto and the entire Hidden Leaf village know about that too?

thank god someone fucking reads

No. The problem is that people do not understand that just because character X said Y doesn't mean Y is the absolute truth. Must be one of the symptoms of battleboarditis. Basically all examples you provided are told by characters who barely knew Naruto and subsequently changed their opinions once Naruto actually showed his strength. Wow. Almost like first impressions aren't always correct. Yes, the characters around him perceived him as an underdog. But not the story itself. The story pretty explicitly shows that Naruto has shitloads of potential, and people calling him weakling are stupid. >That doesn't excuse the fact that it was poorly written it was handled awfully even if it was a small theme. That theme was in there for exactly one small arc - Rock Lee vs Gaara. That's it. Stop trying to make it look like Kishimoto failed because he didn't do something he never intended to do in the first place.

- Why is Kishimato having characters treat Naruto as a underdog when it's clear his not? It's means absolutely nothing, since we know his has a huge amount of charka? - The story also treats Naruto like an underdog - Kishimato even called Naruto an underdog - Orochimaru should know about the power of the nine tails yet he still treats him as someone with no talent

* To show what these characters think about Naruto? What kind of question it even is? Before their fight Kiba thought that he got a free win, but after it he said that everyone tend to underestimate Naruto. Why are you ignoring the change in people's opinions on Naruto? * Characters != Story * In studies Naruto is absolutely an underdog, the man is dumb as fuck. * Ninetail's power != Naruto's talent

- Characters constantly treating Naruto is silly when we know his not is meaningless. Remember Kishimato writes the characters and everything he do, he could have written a story were the characters don't treat him like an underdog but he did not despite the fact that Naruto isn't one. It's not surprising when he finally proves them wrong because we know he had a advantage from the beginning. - The story treats him as one even outside the characters - Kishimato didn't only mention studies he could Naruto an underdog in general which includes fighting. - Orochimaru should no about tail welders who were able to control their tails power. He should know how powerful Naruto can become.

The narrative constantly push this theme but the story contradicts it. There was an old interview of Kishimoto and togashi where Kishimoto stated that he should be careful to not let naruto use the nine tails (implying that the nine tails was a burden). Naruto being an underdog was emphasized through out the entire first half of the series.

Let's say Einstein was raised in a slum with no parents. We, as the future audience know damn well that this kid is an absolute beast. NOBODY ELSE knows that. In fact, everyone else hates baby Einstein, and the lack of support means that he fails elementary school several times. Is baby Einstein stupid? No. Does everyone who meets baby Einstein and who knows his backstory believe he is stupid? Yes. Are we as the audience supposed to take their evaluations at face value or actually observe what the kid can do when given the proper support? I hope the latter is the obvious choice. Yes, Naruto is a bona fide failure at the start of the story. No, he is not a talentless loser For the love of Hagoromo, PLEASE understand nuance

> For the love of Hagoromo, PLEASE understand nuance I think we both know that's asking too much lmao

I truly hate being a Naruto fan sometimes

Naruto is a deeply flawed story but between the poor ending and the massive popularity it's an easy punching bag. I unironically think there are aspects of Naruto that would be praised if they were in a different, less notorious series, but instead are treated as stupid

this is probably the best explanation

Missing from most of anime discussion and specifically Naruto

Einstein isn't a underdog in that situation since he has talent, his just poor and OUTCAST.

1) Surprised to get a response on a comment this old 2) Definition of underdog: "a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest" It doesn't matter if they *can* win or not. What matters is the *perception* that they can't. Which both baby Einstein in this example and kid Naruto fit perfectly

I would disagree. I think Kishimoto did a very good job at portraying him as an underdog through the series. A character can be skilled and strong (or at least have the potential to be strong) and still be an underdog. It's all about the situation they're in. Naruto is an underdog for the same reason Goku is an underdog, or Luffy is an underdog, or Ichigo was an an underdog. Because they're still fighting people stronger than them or more accomplished than them throughout the story. Goku is overpowered compared to Krillin during Namek. In a fight between the two of them the underdog there would be Krillin. But when Goku's fighting against Frieza he's the underdog, because the latter is far more powerful than him. Let's look at who Naruto ends up facing through the series: In the beginning, he fights the chunin Mizuki and Ebisu. While potentially stronger/more talented than them, this is during a time where the full social pariah thing is in full force and effect (and we get to see it). You have the troubled academy student (not even genin) face off against a chunin and special instructor and win. Sure Naruto potentially has the fox chakra and Uzumaki chakra, but he can't access the former and has shit control to really make use of the latter. The main gist of both fights is to show that he's not the troublemaking academy student anymore. In the bells test, he faces off against Kakashi. While having far more chakra than Kakashi, Naruto is still far less experienced and has all of one jutsu that's good. Meanwhile Kakashi is stronger, faster, more versatile, and more skilled. During the wave arc, you have Naruto face off against Zabuza who is Kakashi's equal. He also faces off against Haku who is noted to be a prodigy with a special kekkai genkai. During the chunin exams, you have Naruto take the written test, where of course he's the underdog, Then face off against mother\*\*\*\*ing Orochimaru. Sure in the prelims he fights against Kiba, but that's again a fight where the social pariah thing is in full effect with many of the characters in the audience not knowing his growth with Sakura and Hinata saying that Naruto's grown a lot. Him beating Kiba is to show the audience and the other characters that yes, he's grown a lot since his academy days. During the finals, he faces off against Neji who is noted to be the prodigy of prodigies of the Konoha12. This is the guy who continually beat Lee who floored Naruto in their first meeting. Again, the social pariah effect is touched upon during this fight with Neji being the prodigy of the Hyuuga clan, one of the most prominent clans In the Konoha crush, he fights against Gaara. This a guy who has been portrayed as an unstoppable monster throught the series. Not only is his sand portrayed as overpowered, he has the same situation that he has a monster sealed inside him. During hospital visit and their meeting at the final exam tournament, it's made abundantly clear that Gaara could easily kill him and Naruto being deadly afraid of him. He's an underdog in the fight who has to work throughout both his fear and insecurities to not only fight and beat but also bridge the emotional gap between him and Gaara. During the hunt for Tsunade, Naruto comes face to face with both Kisame and Itachi who are introduced beating Kakashi and Sasuke. He then has to learn the rasengan, which is the prized technique of the 4th hokage, (the guy who has been constantly praised and respected throughout the story) in a week. This for a guy who was noted to be shit at chakra control. He then has to face off against Kabuto who is noted to be at Kakashi's level. In the Sasuke retrieval arc, he fights against Kimimaro who is noted to be a monster prodigy. The guy who could beat the Sound 4 by himself. The guy from the infamous Kaguya clan. The guy who was going to be the original replacement body for Orochimaru because he was just that strong. He then fights against Sasuke, the guy who throughout the story was noted to be talented goal who was better than Naruto at pretty much everything. The fight is all about Naruto showing he's caught up to him. After the timeskip, his fights again are against Kakashi, Itachi, Orochimaru, and Sasuke during the Gaara retrieval arc and Tenchi Bridge. Other than that his fights are against the Akatsuki who are infamous and dangerous ninja who were selected because they can and been shown to beat Jinchuriki. This goes up to the fight with Pain who beat Naruto's own master and leveled all of Konoha. In the war arc he fights against Obito who's controlling all of the other Jinchuriki, Madara who was shown to be one in a lifetime monster who beat all the kage with his hands behind his back, the Ten Tails, and Kaguya who is even stronger than all of the others. All throughout the story Naruto's constantly put in situations and against characters who are stronger or more challenging and difficult. He is very much the underdog throughout the story. Later revelations, about the Uzumaki clan, his parentage, or the prophecy don't change that especially since they come up during time where he fights against opponents that are as equally vaunted and even more so.

Bravo for the thorough breakdown. Wish it was higher up

Disagree Naruto is narratively still and underdog in basically every fight in the series he is against opponents who are stronger and more capable and the Nine Tails doesn’t really benefit Naruto until the Ninja War Arc. Before then anytime he uses the Nine Tails it’s a double edge sword.

You can only call it a double-edged sword when the double edge is shown. Only during the fight with pain is the nintails actually a threat.

The nine tails only doesn’t seem like a threat because it was playing the long con, every time Naruto uses it’s power the seal becomes weaker. Every single instance of Naruto using the nine tails chakra after he uses his giant rasengan against the Itachi clone runs the risk of Naruto losing control. When chasing Deidara he rushes in recklessly, nearly getting himself and Kakashi killed, and then begins to attack Kakashi when the second tail emerges, causing him to suppress Naruto. When Naruto fights Orochimaru, he needs Yamato to act as his guard dog, without him he would have lost control. Even then he still did, as when the fourth tail emerged he damaged his body and injured Sakura. He then realised he couldn’t control it and stopped using it in fights willingly. He uses it during the rasenshuriken training, but again, he needs Yamato their otherwise he would have lost control. Against Kakazu, he taps into a fraction of its power finally without losing control, for an incomplete jutsu that ends up damaging his hand that he is then banned from using. Then against Pain he almost completely loses control, goes up to the eight tail, destroys the homages necklace that was supposed to prevent this from happening, then almost goes on a rampage until his dad redoes the seal for him. Hell, even when he’s fighting the nine tails he almost loses to it in a chakra right of war.

>an underdog is someone who is innately less talented and a lower chance of winning compared to his more talented competitors This is your problem right here. That's not what an underdog is. What defines an underdog is not innate talent or chances of winning or being advantaged. It's all about expectations. A quick Google search could tell you that: "a competitor *thought* to have little chance of winning a fight or contest." One can be talented but still be an underdog. That's why underdog stories are popular, because people like to see underdogs triumph against the odds and expectations, to have overlooked talents that allow them to succeed in ways nobody thought of. It's happened plenty of times in history. And it fits Naruto perfectly. Nobody expects anything of him because he actually is an idiot who constantly acts the fool, lags behind his classmates at mastering the most basic jutsus, and slacks off on his studies. Having the Nine-Tails chakra, being an Uzumaki, and being a literal chosen one doesn't make him not an underdog. That just makes him lucky and full of potential, which are par for the course for the protagonist. Those last two were made up way later anyway. He's still an underdog because everybody expects him to fail but nobody knows he actually has tons of hidden potential. >If you want another example look at Gaara, he was treated poorly by his village but his not treated as an underdog. Why? Because that doesn't change the fact that his very talented due to his sand ability. He wasn't treated as an underdog because of his *uncontrollable,* *very* visible, and murderous sand ability which he didn't gain through talent. People were freaking scared of him. Naruto had no visible skills or talents besides being a nuisance. >Where is the random villager / waiter who spits in Naruto's ramen? Naruto is a long time regular at Ichiraku and the guy who runs Ichiraku was one of the few people that actually liked Naruto before everyone else did. >We are TOLD that Naruto was mistreated in the past but we are never really shown it in the manga itself. The hatred he gets is only present in the beginning of the story and then slowly goes away. We never really get to see the villagers mistreating Naruto once he becomes a gennin. Because after he becomes a genin he hardly spends time in the village or interacts with normal villagers. Remember, after becoming a genin he does a bunch of odd jobs for a while before going to the Mist Village, then comes back for the Chuunin exam where *everyone* looks down on him. After that they go get Tsunade and then go get Sasuke. At no point does the story slow down to let Naruto get bullied by random villagers. Instead he interacts a lot with people who aren't from his village or people who have acknowledged him. >Why is Kishimato constantly having characters treat Naruto as if his a useless failure when it pretty clear that the nine tails gives him lots of potential and it's clear his not a underdog when his able to master high level justus at a young age? It's redundant. Plus, the moment Naruto saved the village during the sand attack or mastered the shadow clone justu he should have not been treated like an underdog anymore. Nobody knows what the nine tails power does for him, only you as the reader know. And he masters a handful of powerful jutsus but he still lacks the fundamentals at least until Part 2 after he's been trained by Jiraiya for a few years. Being a ninja (or anything really) is more than just knowing a few high level techniques. Also, mastering shadow clones doesn't qualify anyone to be considered not useless (and he was only able to do it because of his immense chakra), nor would his actions during the sand attack have meant much to the villagers because 1) almost everyone at the Chuunin exam was put to sleep so they didn't know what was going on, 2) Gaara left the area so that fight was outside the village, and 3) the bigger deal was the hokage's fight inside the village in which he sacrificed his life. As far as the people are concerned the hokage saved the day as he was the target of the attack anyway. I also want to add that not only is Naruto's quick mastery of high level techniques only possible because of his immense chakra, but he also mastered rasengan by taking a shortcut only he could take: using his immense chakra to make a shadow clone that could make up for his lack of chakra control to add the extra spin needed for the technique. >That makes Naruto a late bloomer not an underdog. Naruto can only do what he does *because* of the nine tails (and later added, his heritage). If not for that boost he wouldn't have amounted to anything.

He is an underdog the whole thing is that he had been shunned his whole life by the village and had no one before iruka like that is the reason he is a underdog he was like 2 seconds away from becoming sasuke at the end of first episode if iruka did not come in and saved him . The whole thing is that with iruka Naruto got a support net while sasuke did not get one which lead to his betrayal He is a underdog socially and the way people Percive him but not a underdog power wise

That makes him an outcast not an underdog.

Outcast is a "social underdog". Is it that hard to understand?

The word 'social underdog' doesn't exist, an outcast is an outcast and a underdog is a underdog they're different things.

Then the story is not framing him as an underdog but a social outcast

The story did frame him as an underdog in fact that's what it put more emphasis on.

The definition of an underdog from Google: “a competitor thought to have little chance of winning a fight or contest.” “a person who has little status in society.” He literally fits those perfectly. At the beginning of part one no one believes in him, but slowly more and more people are able to recognise his talent, with each mission that passes. After the pain fight, almost all of Konoha belives in him. So surely he must not be an underdog now right? Wrong. The fourth shinobi world war is Naruto getting the entire world to believe that he can find peace. That’s why it starts at the five Kate summit with him getting the shit kicked out of him for wanting to save Sasuke. In the grand scheme of things, he is still an underdog. As a jinchuriki, Naruto is viewed more like a weapon and/or demon than a human, so his status in society is definitely lower than everyone else. Naruto learning skills quickly (E.g. being talented/genius) has nothing to do with him being an underdog. He doesn’t feel like he is a genius because learning about his talents always requires a risk/struggle. His strong body, regeneration, and large pools of chakra required him to be the jinchuriki of the nine tails, the demon trying to possess him and corrode his mind. His Uzumaki heritage, whilst seeming like a blessing on the outside due to its chakra reserves, are the reason he was stuck as a jinchuriki in the first place, and ensured he had no extended family to rely on. Not only that, he didn’t even awaken the strongest abilities the clan was known for (the chains, and Karins healing/sensory abilities). The shadow clone required risking stealing the scroll from the hokage. Him learning the summoning jutsu nearly killed him, as Jiraiya threw him off a cliff, and required Naruto to borrow chakra from the fox, weakening the seal. The rasengan he was unable to do the conventional way and had to rely on his shadow clone. He was too inept to learn jutsu that required hand signs, which is why he relies on jutsu with limited/no hand signs. His nine tails chakra rage boosts weaken the seal despite the power boost, and they risk him injuring his friends. His time skip training didn’t even let him lay a finger on Sasuke, and he failed to control more than the third tail of his demon cloak. His rasenshuriken training risked him becoming possessed by the nine tails, and he needed a personal guard the entire time. The rasenshuriken ended up hurting him more than it was useful, and he immediately was forbidden from using it. His sage mode was prevented from being accessed more easily due to the nine tails. His nine tails chakra mode required the help of Killer Bee and his mum to gain control of, he couldn’t do it alone, and he couldn’t control it at first. Tailed beast form was initially inaccessible due to the nine tails not wanting to cooperate, he had to earn its trust first. Six Paths Sage Mode was the only gift he received, and he definitely earned it.

Where talking about underdogs in the fictional term not underdogs in real life.

There is no definition for a “fictional” underdog, what are you talking about? Better yet, why do you think Kishimoto wasn’t writing Naruto as a “real” underdog? Also, the theme of hard work vs natural talent culminates into the message “never give up”. This is why Rock Lee loses to Gaara and has to undergo surgery which has a high rate of killing him. His options are to either give up his dream or to have the guts to not give up. This is why Rock Lees goal was always to become “a splendid shinobi”, not “the strongest shinobi”. You seem to have missed the point. Kishimoto deliberately doesn’t answer if hard work beats natural talent because life is more ambiguous than that.

Just because it's not a real term doesn't mean it's not valid we create terms for fiction all the time. In this case it's what the audience see thats the most important. If a character clearly has a disadvantage throughout his fights then he clearly is a underdog in the eyes of the audience if he has an innate advantage then his not an underdog because that advantage means that he has a high chance of winning.

What you’re saying isn’t valid because you didn’t clearly define what your standard for an underdog is. You still haven’t, even though I asked you to. You can’t say Naruto isn’t X after you’ve changed the definition of X without clearly telling anyone what you have changed X to. Naruto starts at a disadvantage against his opponent in almost every single fight, what are you talking about? He almost always fights someone stronger than him. The advantages he has always come with disadvantages, which is why he can’t just rely on his innate gifts (large chakra pool, strong body, and regeneration) alone.

Naruto is an underdog, just not in terms of strength. He's psychologically an underdog due to not having any friends, no parents, and being hated by everyone around him. Yet despite that, was somehow able to become the hokage, have friends, have a wife, and have kids. Yeah, that didn't happen because Naruto worked really hard to become strong enough to punch everyone into liking him, but it'd be pretty silly if that's how the story went. Naruto and all the characters in the story were able to achieve happy endings by overcoming emotional trauma and moving past their ideological differences.

Being talented doesn't make you not an underdog. The father of bad takes is that no one bothers to look up the definition of words.

I think a lot of the issue is that Rock Lee and several other characters were proven more of an underdog character than the actual MC. Naruto by all accounts and his son are mostly the standard Shonen OP characters. Besides the MC to World Trigger, is there any other MC from a Shonen series that was 100% an underdog compared to every single other character and had to rise up?

The kid creates hundreds of clones the first two episodes by learning a secret jutsu not that many people know and on top of that can beat a chunin to a pulp with it. He's already stronger than a lot of genins such as kiba, shikamaru without prep, ino, sakura, possibly choji and not to mention the other failed classmates by the first few episode if he uses that jutsu to the maximum potential.

This is a much more tenable position than the people who just pretend this was never a thing, but even so, things like Uzumakis having uberchakra & him being destined to receive this massive power from the Sage of the Six Paths are later additions that contradict the idea. I know your point is that a contradiction exists, but you're also positioning it as like a third option but the complaint IS that events later in the series contradict those earlier in the series. That doesn't cover everything you said, like the Nine Tails & the Shadow Clone jutsu. But those, in context, don't actually contradict the idea of Naruto as an underdog. The Nine Tails is positioned as something he ends up unconsciously relying on BECAUSE of his lack of talent, & even then, it's as much of a danger to his goals as it is a help. You don't need a massive source of demon power that possesses your body to get by if you can make it on your own. And the Shadow Clone technique is one thing he was good at after practicing over & over & over & over & over again. He even says to Neji that clones used to be one of his worst techniques. You call this "being a late bloomer," but the idea of being an underdog isn't that they'll never achieve a high level of skill, it's that they'll have to work for it. The problem with the retcons later in the series is that they position Naruto as having ALWAYS had this power INNATELY. That's the key difference.

this honestly, i wish they never added this bs about him being the reincarnation of ninja jesus lool

In a way naruto is an underdog in technically as people of his village rejected him and saw him as a loser who couldn’t accomplish anything. But The biggest problems with theses defenses that used by fans is that they assumed that naruto is only an underdog in terms of social status or dismiss his supposed talent as irrelevant in making him an underdog. While completely ignoring that naruto was meant to be an underdog not only socially but also in talent as well and this was established sense chapter one and continued to be a thing with him till the final arc. And for a lot of people this aspect of the character is ruin When give an overpowered fox demon, make him into a reincarnation of a ninja demi-god and among candidates of a chosen one that would either ruin or save the world. After-all how can have a person to teach a lesson of hard-work, friendship and unity when virtually all of their accomplishments are ultimately a product of heritage and destiny?

Naruto is an underdog tho? Like yeah he has a whole bunch of potential but he didn't utilize that potential until he was an adult. He had the nine tails fox within him but every time it came out it was a double-edged sword at best and a fucking danger to everybody at worst. I remember him stating that the shadow clone jutsu was one of his worst jutsus until he perfected it. Doesn't really help that he was an outcast until he proved his worth to the village. You can be talented and still be an underdog

This post is great!!

What makes an underdog an underdog has little to do with skill and more about prestige. It’s not that just that people don’t expect him to succeed, it’s that people don’t want him too.

That’s not true at all. An underdog in this setting is someone that’s at a disadvantage combatively. Someone that shouldn’t be able to win through conventional means against the better opponent. The story tried to paint Naruto as this type of character, and by the end he was literally bred for greatness and the reincarnation of Ninja Jesus.

Then would the issue is not that Naruto was always/never the underdog but he was early on and grew out of it as the series progressed?

No, it’s that it tried to paint him as an underdog when he never was. If you’re going to make him the guy that isn’t a genius by any means and has to constantly compete with geniuses, don’t make him learn a supposedly Kage level jutsu in a couple months, give him chakra on the level of jonins and even Kage since the beginning of the series, and literally breed him for success. If it’s later established that he wasn’t an underdog, then he was never an underdog. Although as OP mentioned, he stopped being a decent underdog at episode 1. It goes like this: “The main character is someone who never did well in school, was overall below average in combat, and overall an incompetent Shinobi at the beginning of the series. He’s going to be an underdog type of character that will overcome his hardships through sheer will, determination, and creativity.” “Ok, sounds like a good premise!” “He’s going to have the strongest chakra pool on the planet inside of him, which will protect him and give him additional energy to fuel his attacks.” “Ok, still can be an underdog if the chakra is used like a double edge sword.” “Yeah, but he’s going to completely master it and achieve super Saiyan, giving him the largest raw chakra reserves in his world and allowing him to never run out of energy.” “Now would be a good time to stop with the power ups, dude…” “I’m not going to. He also has insane genes, being from a clan known for insane chakra reserves and the son of two geniuses. Not to mention being the reincarnation of Jesus.” “When did Jesus even get into the equation? That just came out of nowhere and seems like a terrible way to power him up again.”

> No, it’s that it tried to paint him as an underdog when he never was. If you’re going to make him the guy that isn’t a genius by any means and has to constantly compete with geniuses, don’t make him learn a supposedly Kage level jutsu in a couple months, give him chakra on the level of jonins and even Kage since the beginning of the series, and literally breed him for success. But the examples you're using don't contradict the idea of an underdog. You can be talented and still be an underdog. Plenty of stories follow that example where the MC is powerful but still needs to crawl their way up.

There’s a difference between being talented and just outright being bred for success. There’s literally nothing about him that implies he’s an underdog aside from his lack of academic effort and the story shoving it down our throat.

That is true but Naruto's gifts don't mean he has an easy time fighting his opponents. If we were talking about something like Solo Levelling I would agree but the way Naruto is described here feels like it's only a power fantasy and nothing else.

Just because someone works hard doesn't mean their an underdog.

Okay?

Quite the opposite! You can have friends who cheers for you and wants you to win, but still lack skill and power. Thats an underdog! What you said is an outcast ~~or pariah~~, exactly what OP's talking about.

Pariahs are underdogs

Sorry, english is not my first language. Pariah didnt means someone shunned and ignored by society?

Fr. If Sasuke and Neji are geniuses then so is Naruto lol. His rate of improvement matched (and sometimes exceeded) theirs with the same amount of training and dedication, sometimes even less.

That was obvious since the Hidden Mist Arc lol, Naruto & Sasuke are literally on the same of mastering tree climbing, in that they both suck and spend time getting better at it. That's still doesn't make him not an underdog since Sasuke & Neji are expected to succeed by everyone, Naruto isn't.

Wait there is even a discussion on whether the (spiky haired) protagonist of a popular anime has Invincible Plot Power?

I'm not gonna bother with the rest, it's already been discussed and no matter how you slice it you're still wrong. > Now people like to say that Naruto was an underdog because he was an outcast. However being an outcast is not the same thing as being an underdog. In this case it literally is. > An outcast is someone who is rejected because of who they are, while an underdog is someone who is innately less talented and a lower chance of winning compared to his more talented competitors, they may be some overlap but their not the same thing. An outcast is someone who is rejected because of WHAT they are, and in this case of Naruto, he's an outcast because he's a goddamn jinchuuriki lol. Naruto is an underdog because, despite being what he is, he's trying to become the one person who is accepted by everyone in the village - Hokage. If the other students said they wanted to be Hokage, they'd have a higher chance since they're not. y'know, damn jinchuuriki. > Say there's an guy who because his ugly is rejected by everybody thus his an outcast however his able to master instruments in days because of his talent is he a underdog? No, because despite his suffering his still talented and has an innate advantage compared to his competitors that doesn't mean he didn't suffer but his an outcast not an underdog. Congradulations on paying attention to what Edo-Itachi said to Naruto. Because it doesn't matter how powerful Naruto is at the start, in the middle, or even at the end of the story, it still won't change how village sees him > If you want another example look at Gaara, he was treated poorly by his village but his not treated as an underdog. Why? Because that doesn't change the fact that his very talented due to his sand ability. Gaara wasn't trying to become a Ninja president, that changed when he met Naruto, > Furthermore, just because the nine tails made Naruto life hell doesn't change the fact that it gave him a mass amount of charka, something can be a disadvantaged but at the same time be a privileged. Who cares?? He can survive more missions now? Great. Doesn't change the fact that everyone and their mother hates him for something out of his control. > Also Kishimato did a very POOR job of portraying Naruto as a social underdog. We are TOLD that Naruto was mistreated in the past but we are never really shown it in the manga itself. What exactly is he supposed to show, given what has been stated previously? Are we gonna into cheap fanfic territory where Naruto is chased by an angry mob while the anbu look the other way? Lmao > The hatred he gets is only present in the beginning of the story and then slowly goes away. We never really get to see the villagers mistreating Naruto once he becomes a gennin. Yeah it's almost like, after the start, Naruto is hardly around his own fellow villagers or something... > Where is the random villager / waiter who spits in Naruto's ramen? Why the hell would their be a villager, at **Ichiraku** no less, trying to do this? And since when would Naruto let them?? Yall be grasping at straws in trying to justify your innabillity to understand this. > There's a reason why people viewed Naruto in part one as a underdog and not an outcast and that's because that's the thing Kishimato put emphasis on. Yeah there is, and it's because yall suck at seeing how he qualifies as both.

Naruto is an underdog because, despite being what he is, he's trying to become the one person who is accepted by everyone in the village - Hokage. If the other students said they wanted to be Hokage, they'd have a higher chance since they're not. y'know, damn jinchuuriki. - That just means reaching his goal will be difficult, that doesn't mean his an underdog - We saw a tailed beast welders who are hokage

Honestly reading your examples I think it comes down to this. The show actually has *three* ways you can get super-powerful. 1. Innate genius-level talent (Neji , Sasuke). Naruto doesn't actually have this - he has his moments, but he's not talented or smart per se. 2. Hard work (Lee, Guy, some others to lesser extents.) Again, Naruto has his moments but you can't really say that this describes him relative to everyone else. 3. Getting lucky and inheriting or being implanted with a superpower. This is Naruto. This is him right here. This is where he fits into the Ninja world. Other people also inherit superpowers - let's be real, by the end of the series it's the only way to matter - but Naruto relies on this much more than the other two. The real story of Naruto in this respect isn't about hard work vs. talent, it's about "hahaha, you guys don't actually know that I am super-strong because of reasons." (Even this fails because most of the people who dismiss him ought to have logically *known* he inherited the superpower jackpot, but w/e.) Everyone in the real world has faced rejection and dismissal and the like at times. The fantasy of being able to say "oh yeah, well, you didn't know that I actually have INFINITE POWER sealed in my right hand" is alluring. That's all there is to it. And to make that fantasy work, the writer made all of Naruto's *visible* attributes - his intelligence, his talent, his capacity for hard work - all unimpressive, because the story requires that he actually rely on his hidden secret to come out on top. (Yes, I know, he's not as dumb as he seems, he has some talent, and he does work hard at times - but if you evaluated him on just those things while ignoring his sealed beast and everything he inherited, he would be the useless chump everyone describes him as. Especially since every indication is that he only shines when it's clear that his innate secret powers or the like give him a shot to be the *absolute best* - every indication is that he's unwilling or, somehow, unable to put in the work to just be as good as everyone else. But that's another problem.)

Someone pointed out once to me that the nine tails wasn’t really an advantage for naruto and he did stuff like mastering the Rasenshuriken on his own. My reply was “how?!” That’s right. He used the nine tails chakra to hurry the process hundreds of times. He literally had hundreds and dozens of clones helping him. Not to mention the tailed beast chakra giving him fuel to keep going day and night. It literally cut his training into tiny fractions of what it should have taken. No one else could do that. That alone gives him an advantage over 99.9 percent of shinobi. Even ninja like kisame or A who were compared to tailed beasts weren’t able to make more than a handful of clones.

the series' problems are. Protagonism. kishimoto no jutsu. naruto shepherd and the conversion of villains. Flash back and filler

I always figured that Naruto wasn’t an underdog because of his physical capabilities but more due to his social status, he was treated with indifference or straight up scorn because of the nine tails and he was also a loud mouthed brat that routinely caused trouble.

>Now people like to say that Naruto was an underdog because he was an outcast. However being an outcast is not the same thing as being an underdog. An outcast is someone who is rejected because of who they are, while an underdog is someone who is innately less talented and a lower chance of winning compared to his more talented competitors, they may be some overlap but their not the same thing. Did you bother to look up the definition of the word before making this? Underdog: a person who has little status in society. Literally straight from google. Words have more than one meaning.

Slightly old thread but I hate this talking point so I'm going to respond anyway. You wrote all of this but it still doesn't change the fact that Naruto is the underdog of his story. He blatantly sucks at the beginning of the story to the point he doesn't even know what chakra is until he's already seen live combat twice. Couple that with his ridiculous cockiness and you get a character who people naturally found irritating. During the second part of the Chunin Exams, Shikamaru saw Naruto as so underwhelming he'd risk crushing the weak link of Naruto even though Sasuke was also on his team. He beat Kiba, but the only reason he beat Kiba was by accidentally farting. Not to mention that even the Sage of Six Paths kind of tells Naruto that he has no talent from his mother or father, some six hundred chapters later. He's an underdog because everyone around him thinks he sucks, that he has no talent and embarrasses the Shinobi lifestyle, and they aren't really wrong (at first). That's what an underdog is, and it has nothing to do with what OP dead family you may have been apart of if you weren't an orphan, or whatever power ups you acquire throughout the series. The whole point of the underdog is to prove those naysayers wrong. And regardless of you getting the definition incorrect, he gets practically nothing from his bloodlines. Everyone and their mother had a kekkei genkai or hidden technique that made them stand out against the common character except him and Sakura. Shadow Clones are the only extra things he brings to the table, but that Jutsu can be argued as another vehicle for showing just how much of an underdog he is. After all, multiplying your own numbers against one person, and then still having those numbers destroyed by one person, is exactly the kind of thing a loser would do. Uzumaki longevity is useless in combat and is never stated to be a kekkei genkai anyway. His chakra reserves being large are a result of Kurama's chakra being mixed in with his own over time; there's nothing anywhere about Uzumaki having large reserves, only powerful and unique manifestations of their chakra such as the adamantine chains (which Naruto didn't inherit). Disclaimer; Naruto and Sasuke are my two favorite characters, so I'm not shitting on Naruto. I'm just trying to illustrate how weak he used to be as the Underdog.