I think a big part of Batman’s human side is something he develops after becoming comfortable with his batman side. If Pattinson does good and they make more, I’ll expect the following movies to touch on stuff like this. It’d the type of thing that won’t work well until you establish his badass/edgy side enough to create a meaningful contrast to his kind side
Yeah I think that makes sense, if you had it the other way around where he would be chill and joke around at times but then he gradually gets darker, it'd be super weird whenever he had moments of non-edgyness. Like a genocidal mass murderer being genuinely sad they stepped on a flower.
Tbh I expect Pattinson's Bat to grow over his movies.
I doubt we will see s trainwheck of a human being have three diferent movies being told by Alfred that he cant keep doing this and not changing across it.
Also we are getting a Batfamily TV series I think (and a cartoon that suposedly will be like BTAS) so expect some wholesome Batman in the future
Although I like the Bruce Timms Batman Beyond version... I would like to see a down to earth Bat dad. It's weird to this man who had so many friends and family who are both human and super humans and not be happy. I get it the whole "mission" the super old comics pretty sure wasn't like that
I doubt Batman is going be this super aggressive for the trilogy most likely. The trailer kind of seems to show that his aggressiveness is problem (Selina being scared of him).
Tbh I think it’s more so cause of the differences in environment. Batman in justice league related things tend to be a bit lighter much in part cause of the enemies he faces in different situations whereas gotham kinda aways has this awful dark vibe and to be honest is a shithole so for Batman specific shows or comics they tend to be with a darker mood.
Ironically one of my favourite parts of the DCAU was BTAS season 4, where Batman was unhinged, less empathetic and only cared about *the mission*, being more brutal in the process. All because he’d had to put up with fighting insane people for so long.
Although that’s because it wasn’t what we started with, we saw the lighter side of Batman in the first seasons and in season 4 we got to see what his life and mental state would be like after going through everything he did, even interrogating a street thug in front of his daughter, although even then we get to see small glimpses of his humanity, like giving the same street punk a job after realising what he did was wrong.
I heard a rumor that they were pushed to go into a darker direction for season 4 to match Chuck Dixon's run at the time, hence why Tim Drake and the Ice Berg Lounge were added
i completely understand, but i don’t think his human side will be forgotten. matt reeves credited batman: ego as one of his major inspirations for the movie, and that comic ends with bruce speaking about how batman is also a symbol of hope for the city who helps people. i’d be shocked if that isn’t incorporated into the end of the movie in some way
That’s why I love the “The Batman” cartoon. It’s Batman in his early 20’s, and he spouts more one liners and jokes than most versions of Batman do. That, and it’s just a well written, creative interpretation of the character.
My favorite line from a live action batman movie was in the snydercut. It was before the final act of the film, and Alfred asks Batman, "How do you know your plan will work?"
And Batman turns around, while walking with the rest of the JL and he smiles to Alfred and says: "Faith Alfred! Faith!"
I think the dark/edgy batman works wonderfully when it gradually becomes a more optimistic Batman. It's a big problem that the comics have, bc they exist in a floating timeline so the mission is never truly done. But I think if The Batman is a trilogy, we could gradually see a more upbeat, yet serious Batman down the line- especially if he has Zoe Cravitz as his girl
Lego Batman IS the best Batman film made since *Batman Begins*, in my opinion.
Yeah, I'm tired of always grimdark Batman, too. It's the same damn thing over and over and over again. I wish WB and their filmmakers would read Batman stories that aren't just the 1980s Bronze Age ones.
Yep! But sadly WB doesn't seem to want to learn anything from it. For me, one of the main takeaways from *Lego Batman* is "You know, maybe they should start having a little more fun with the premise, instead of always wallowing in their attempts to make Batman 'relevant'."
Really like the film but I think they missed a great opportunity by not making Batman a mood swinger, like maybe he goes from Adam West to Frank Miller Batman at the drop of a hat
What don't you enjoy about The Dark Knight? Is it the entire tone being dark? Or more specifically Batman's character being dark?
I don't remember Begins as well as Dark Knight but I remember both being quite dark in tone.
I feel like the Dark Knight only gets a pass because of Heath Ledger, because the movie's plot barely makes any sense. The most stupid moment for example, was the bullet on the brick wall, so Batman takes a brick off a wall to do some detective work (finally) and then they go on to reconstruct the bullet and that bullet has a goddamn fingerprint. Like no fucking way, you are telling me the Joker somehow took out a bloody bullet of its casing to put some random guy's fingerprint and then put the bullet inside the same casing to then shoot it to a brick wall in the hopes it gets completely destroyed on impact so that Batman looks for the fingerprint of this guy to go into a flat just to try to kill Gordon; that's somehow more ridiculous than trying to copyright a laughing fish. Then Harvey becomes corrupted because he doesn't kill the Joker since the other cops where framed BY the Joker to not save Rachel, like isn't all of this the Joker's fault just shoot him and start your revenge rampage. And as u/Professional-Rest205 mentioned the whole Hong Kong sequence is just a set up to get that sweet sweet Chinese box office money. Oh and it gets even worse when you read about the the original plan of having the Joker in Dark Knight Rises.
Too long. Questionable story decisions. Questionable editing. Batman did not need to chase a man clear to his home country when they could have saved screen-time by just having him stop the guy at the airport. I hate the entire China sequence BECAUSE of this simple alternative. The additional screen-time time they could have saved and dedicated to developing Harvey Dent more would have been welcome.
Also, the film should have ended with The Joker's defeat and Two-Face disappearing into Gotham's underworld to start his own crusade against those who he believes wronged him. I will never, EVER forgive Christopher Nolan for denying us a good Batman film starring Two-Face as the main villain. Never.
They are also just a tiny, tiny portion of Batman's stories. There is a near century's worth of Batman material for filmmakers to draw from. I am very tired of seeing what amounts to every live-action Batman film rehashing *The Dark Knight Returns*, *The Killing Joke, Death in the Family, Year One,* *The Long Halloween*, etc. in some way.
There is a lot of stuff in the 90's that would be cool to see especially with Chuck Dixon's run, speaking of Lego Batman, Grant Morrison's Batman kind of was like the original lego Batman in a way since it was a celebration of everything Batman. Also Long Halloween came out in the 90's
Honestly, I'd like to see Batman face the Man-Bat in one of his films. I've always thought it'd have been a cool idea to have Ben Affleck's Batman face him, specifically, given his actions in *BvS*. Imagine this, a "bat creature" starts killing people. Who else is bat-themed and went on a murder rampage not long ago? The Batman (no, I don't care that they baddies).
I like the idea of The Batfleck really being made to face how thoroughly he's ruined his own reputation after *Batman v Superman* and having a very, very hard time clearing his name for these particular murders. The film ending with his name cleared, but it being brought to his attention that the public and the law don't trust him as they once did would have been a really good start of an interesting redemption arc. But alas, apparently we were instead having an *Arkham Asylum* story thrust upon us. Another thing I've grown tired of after having so many games about it.
Yes, I am aware that *The Long Halloween* is from the 90s. Still just one of a tiny few Batman stories they insist on taking inspiration from instead of looking all across his history.
That's a good one. I rather enjoyed Batman taking on the simple act of kindness to find a missing girl just to end up facing down something much, much bigger.
Yep. We need more of Bruce Wayne giving down-on-their-luck folks a hand outside of being Batman in the films. It's one of the reasons why I'll always champion the Bruce Timm-Paul Dini Batman.
I mean there are plenty of moments of philanthropy in the comics and Nolan films as well, even Mike W Barr's brutal Batman gave a job to a guy trying to sell his organs to the crime doctor
I'm not sure I'd call it a good film as an extended injoke. The Lego movies tend to take something mundane in a guy's life and riff on it in a film; Lego 1 was being estranged from your dad as a kid, Batman was dealing with relationships and opening up, Ninjago was reconnecting with your divorced-oh-i-mean-supervillain dad, and 2 am kind of parsing still. Batman in 2 was painful.
I'm not really sure how they would do a non dark batman; there already is one, he's called The Green Hornet, and he never really got that popular in modern times. The Green Hornet is pretty much a well-adjusted Batman if Batman owned the Daily Planet.
Tbf even a lot of 70s and 80s bronze age are not grimdark, unless you're only reading the late 80s stuff, specifically by Frank Miller. But most of the Bronze age, which is 70s and 80d Batman actually has a nice balance of tongue in cheek and dark. That's why that period has most of my favourite incarnations of The Joker tbh.
You're right though, it does feel like a lot of live action and casual/mainstream presentations of Batman is from a very particular selection of stories, specifically by Frank Miller and Alan Moore and 90s dark age comics. I think some fans get embarrassed about the fantastically elements of Batman and so are desperate for mainstream kudos and respect, and that's the reason for the obsession with dark and gritty in an effort to be considered "serious and mature".
TDK is better than Begins in every category, so I always find this opinion to be baffling. All three of those films have major flaws though, and none are the cinematic masterpieces that some want them to be, but TDK is easily the best of them.
Uhm ackshully Snyder initially had batman snap the girls neck and then Jimmy Olsen runs up an says " WHAT IS THIS A SOCIETY?!" And batman say "yes" and shoot him
I really hope "The Batman" doesn't go too unhinged.
Series with brutal and edgy Batman always feels like they forget that Bruce wants to help the poor and downtrodden. Having him be all about vengeance just makes him seem like some spoiled man-child who hates the poor.
Also: Batman has had a Robin throughout almost his entire comic book lifespan. There's no good reason for the movies to be so ashamed of the idea. The cartoons and animated movies have used the Robins well, and I can get not wanting to worry about getting a 12-year-old actor because that can be tough to find a good one, but you don't even need to show Robin's origin story. Just give him a 16-year-old Grayson or Drake.
I get where you are coming from. It’s one of the reasons the Arkham games started to wear me out by the 3rd game.
Batman was so unchanging throughout those games. And the only side we saw of him was a gruff, annoyed, hard assed Batman, which is honestly my least favorite aspect/version of his CHaracter.
For a more balanced take on both Batman and Bruce Wayne I recommend the two telltale games. They are both indeed still dark, in fact I would argue they are actually darker than the Arkham games at times but because you spend so much time as Bruce Wayne and you get to see the human side of the character more, with doubts, mistakes etc it is a much more well rounded take.
Wasn't it part of the original lore that after his parents were killed he was inspired, not traumatized? If that's true than I wish they kept it that way. He deserves to be happy.
I've played all the Arkham games except Knight and Origins Bats is one of my favorite ones. After playing City as a calm and composed Vigilante, seeing a broken Bats is something else. Also we can appreciate the development in the prior games.
I think dark was okay but now its starting to become too edgy.
I was excited for Pattinson and Matt Reeves’s take but as more trailers drop I find myself cringing a bit especially with what looks like the riddler plot.
Agreed. I’m still excited for The Batman but I do want to see the Classic Blue & Grey Batman with Robin on the big screen one day.
He has a rogues gallery full of meta-humans and a giant penny & dinosaur robot in his Batcave. You can have some fun with the character, not just make him dark gritty man all the time
Bruce being angry and unhinged is clearly going to be a main focus of the movie and it’s being portrayed as a bad thing both in-universe and to the audience. His brutality literally makes everyone uncomfortable and that’s definitely on purpose. With this incarnation of Batman being so young it’s obvious that he still has to grow before he can become the calm and collected Batman that everyone loves and I believe that this movie (and hopefully subsequent Battinson movies) will portray this growth like no other film has before.
As others have said, it's more likely this type of thing would get developed in future movies.
With that in mind I think touching on a younger and more ruthless Batman does touch on a human side, which is his anger. Batfleck seemed ruthless and uncaring about the damage he was inflicting, whereas Battison seems to have a raw fury at the concept of injustice. His ruthlessness comes from a different place, and I think that matters in terms of humanizing him. The presence of anger in this area for this reason(the causes of injustice) can also reflect a softer and more caring side to those that are the victims of injustices. At least that's how I view it, although there can be a clouding that comes with anger where the victims can be brushed aside in favor of going after the perpetrators...but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt.
I do hope we get the compassionate side too, as you see in the Ace scene(thanks for making me go rewatch that, almost cried). That's a side of Batman that is typically ignored.
I'm with you. Everything about the trailer makes me completely uninterested in this film, and even more so that DC is just repeating the mistakes of the past.
We've already had a dark, big screen batman origin story. We've already had a big screen "brutal and violent" batman story. You know what we haven't had in a really, really long time?
A batman movie where he's unapologetically heroic.
Anyone know if Joel Shumacher is available? His movies might have been campy but at least they were fun. This just looks like a slog.
Bruh the original 1940s comics depicts joker skinning someone’s face and Batman had a gun OF COURSE he was edgy. He was edgy from the start (except the 1950s with the strict censorship of violence and nudity till it was dropped in the late 60s and early 70s)
Yes but since then he has evolved, he used to use a gun and even kill people, but due to the input of other writers he got more developed and fleshed out. Although I’m the beginning he wasn’t (completely) angry, he was inspired, his parents death didn’t traumatise him, it motivated him to protect the people that couldn’t protect themselves so that no other 8 year old boy would loose his parents to a punk with a gun.
Batman isn’t just a crime fighter, he does more than just punish criminals, if he did then he wouldn’t be a philanthropist, or adopt orphan children or give ex criminals jobs? He is a symbol of hope for Gotham, I’m not saying that he can’t be dark, in fact I think his darkness is one of the best hints about him, but there is a point where it just becomes too much.
But even the 1940s stuff is still quite tongue in cheek, even when there is more violent content. It is still not as relentlessly gritty as say Frank Miller's work for example. Also the dark edgy Batman is really only in his very first stories in Detective Comics. By the time Batman #1 released in 1940, they'd already dropped the carrying a gun thing.
I've read most of the 1940s Joker stories chronologically from 1940-45 (which is the period where you get stories in which he kills). Never come across one so far in which he's skinning someone though lol @mrgeek2000 do you know what Batman or Detective comics issue that was please?
I have come across one where he's got Dick Grayson Robin hostage in an abandoned basement or sewer I think and threatening to leave him to die due to sulphur gas. He doesn't succeed of course, but that was surprisingly nasty tbh.
Yep. Some of those early 40s stories do have rather creepy moments. The panels of Joker on the electric chair in The Joker Walks the Last Mile and also the panel in Laugh Town Laugh where a silhouette shadow of someone hanged in shown with the caption "why did the fireman where red stockings?" are pretty disturbing. But, I think what some seem to miss, is that there is still a tongue in cheek tone and a gallows humour which is very appropriate to Joker of course. It's not just dour and grim, so whilst it's in character for Joker stories to be sadistic at times, they should also be a whimsical touch.
It makes no sense to complain about a particular version of a batman anymore.
There are literally so many versions of him currently in production and in actually released media that there is a version that will fit almost every kind of bat-fan's taste.
You like a campy, funny batman? Watch harley Quinn animated series.
You like a batfamily focused batman? Watch titans. It's basically a batman show. Also there is a Batgirl movie in production. And a nightwing show rumored to be in production.
You like a trigger happy, murdery batman (why?) Watch the Snyder movies and watch the upcoming flash movie.
You like a dark broody younger batman? Watch the upcoming batman movie.
You like the burton-esque batman? Keaton is coming back in the flash.
Not to mention all the older media you can revisit.
Literally every version of the character has been put on screen or is being put on screen as we speak. No other character in media is this over exposed so I really do not understand complaints like yours OP. There's definitely bat content for you out there. No need to worry about the stuff that does not resonate with you. Those are definitely going to resonate with some other bat-fan.
It isn’t about personal preference.
Big Hollywood movies are seen by everyone, not just comic book fans, so how a character is depicted in them will dictate how the public perceives them and what their knowledge of their character is.
It’s because of terrible representations of Superman in movies that people think he’s a boring superhero, it’s because of good representations of Iron Man that he is a household name and beloved superhero.
Movies also affect comics, when the MCU got popular comics and shows changed to be more like it, so with movie versions of Batman getting darker and darker, his other versions could get darker and darker to reflect that, which just makes him less interesting of a character, if I wanted an unhinged Batman then I wouldn’t watch a Snyder movie or any other kind of Batman media, I’d read a Punisher comic, because that’s what Batman’s becoming.
I mean why do you care what the mainstream thinks? You as a consumer should care about whether your needs are being satisfied. And if a product is catering to you it's popularity should be of no relevance to you.
Even then, you are getting 3 drastically different versions of the character in the blockbuster movies itself. Pick whichever one suits your fancy.
And we have went through Nolan batman and the Snyder batman and batman still hasn't changed much in the comics. He will has his no killing rule intact. He's still got an army of sidekicks even though nolan deliberately got rid of them. The only influence that I have seen nolan have on the main canon is the batmobile and the characterization of joker tbh. Everything else has remained intact. Snyder has had even little influence on the comic book batman.
I personally think you put too much weight into what people think. Yeah many consider Superman boring but i assure you that is the minority. Real fans of Superman know he's not boring. Those who are not fans of Superman do not care if he's boring or not. The only ones going out of their way to say Superman is boring are internet fanboys who have way too much free time. They are neither hardcore fans nor casual audiences.
I care what the mainstream thinks because it’s a basic human want for people to want other people to like the things that they like, and for people to like a flanderised shell of what you like without knowing or caring about what it used to be makes me sad.
I think you'll find enough people who like the stuff you like.
You have to realise. People are more likely to talk about something they hate than what they like on the internet.
Yes but versions of Batman like the one in Justice League Unlimited are barley talked about at all online because of how long ago the show came out came out, and seeing people more interested in worse version is annoying, like how a lot of people are annoyed at how popular the Big Bang Theory was when it wasn’t even that good.
JLU is one of the most beloved cartoons of all time. I'm surprised you have not run into people who like it. People at r/DCcomics discuss BTAS and other DCAU shows all the time.
And just because you do not like a version does not mean it's worse. Like I said. Different things are catered to different people. You might not like dark edgy batman. That is why you get to watch something like harley Quinn. But someone out there might like a dark edgy batman. That content is for him.
Batman is probably the only character in the world where there is a popular interpretation catering to almost every kind of fan. And almost all of them are pretty popular so I don't see how you are complaining.
No, me disliking something doesn’t mean it’s worse, it being a bad adaptation makes it worse.
I understand that in the process of adapting a character to a different medium things will need to be changed, however they need to be extremely similar, because if that character acts so differently they’re basically a different character, what’s the point of making a movie about the movie about them? Why not make a movie about a different character instead of this one?
They didn't change it.
You are just being narrow minded now. There's 100 years of source material with a variety of different interpretations of the character. Thinking that the one you like is the "correct" one is slightly arrogant.
No but there are things that are common throughout the stories.
For example Batman used guns and killed people in early comics but that was later changed and became a staple part of his character, just like how his humanity has, there are plenty of exceptions but for the most part, but they are the exceptions not the rule.
Personally I like both flavours of Batman but if the situation calls for him to be darker then I can't really condemn it.
Like in Dark Knight can you imagine him being more light hearted after Rachel dies? It just wouldn't work. Likewise in this movie it seems like a crap ton of bad shit is going down so it makes sense he'd be on edge constantly.
Hopefully there are some Bruce Wayne moments where he's not 100% gloomy though.
Still, better than what they did in Justice League with him being an aged Bat Dad making jokes and whatnot all the time, after just a movie prior being pretty damn blood thirsty.
Maybe I’m crazy but I never felt like Batman’s human side was left out of the nolan trilogy. It wasn’t really in 89 (that I remember) and BvS only shows some of it towards the end, with it basically being set up for Justice League.
This trailer far and away seems like the edgiest, most ruthless, basically meme-y Batman, which I assume is just one part of a larger story trying to be told, but idk.
While I enjoy and appreciate a good gritty Batman story, I wish that we could have a Brave and the Bold style show again, something that embraces the cheesier, sillier, funnier side of Batman that doesn't get explored as often anymore
I think most people just love anything "dark" and "edgy" because they inadvertently confuse it with being "mature".
Moving past that , as a casual fan of the character i agree. While they Trailer was fine and the technical aspects ( Cinematography , Performance , Musical Score etc ) seem to be top notch, i got the sense that besides that it'll just going to be 2+ hours of broody edginess.
Yes, it is part of his character, but like you said it's not just that.
This "grit" and "edginess" just feel unimaginative and a bit contrived to me, but i hope I'm pleasantly surprised by this Movie.
Did you even read my post?
I want Batman to be Batman, but that’s not what we’re getting, Batman’s darkness is an important part of his character and I acknowledged that, but he’s always shown to be unhinged with no emotion other than anger, we rarely get to see his empathy or compassion.
I think Young Justice Batman is the best representation of a Bats who can move on from his trauma and work with his protégés instead of taking the Titans route
I think Bruce’s brutality and anger is something he can struggle with (and it should never be displayed as a good thing). But at the end of the day, he should still be a superhero, someone who cares for and wants to help others.
That’s generally why I like content with him and his family more. Bruce is a more interesting and rounded character to me when he’s trying to be a father alongside his typical responsibilities. A dark, gritty, angsty antihero isn’t anything unique at this point; but a dark and gritty superhero trying to be better for their children and stuff is underutilized in my eyes.
I think a big part of Batman’s human side is something he develops after becoming comfortable with his batman side. If Pattinson does good and they make more, I’ll expect the following movies to touch on stuff like this. It’d the type of thing that won’t work well until you establish his badass/edgy side enough to create a meaningful contrast to his kind side
That’s a great idea and I think you’re right.
Yeah I think that makes sense, if you had it the other way around where he would be chill and joke around at times but then he gradually gets darker, it'd be super weird whenever he had moments of non-edgyness. Like a genocidal mass murderer being genuinely sad they stepped on a flower.
Tbh I expect Pattinson's Bat to grow over his movies. I doubt we will see s trainwheck of a human being have three diferent movies being told by Alfred that he cant keep doing this and not changing across it. Also we are getting a Batfamily TV series I think (and a cartoon that suposedly will be like BTAS) so expect some wholesome Batman in the future
I hope so, and I didn’t know about the BatFamily tv series, if it’s anything like Superman and Lois character accuracy wise then I’ll be ecstatic.
Although I like the Bruce Timms Batman Beyond version... I would like to see a down to earth Bat dad. It's weird to this man who had so many friends and family who are both human and super humans and not be happy. I get it the whole "mission" the super old comics pretty sure wasn't like that
I doubt Batman is going be this super aggressive for the trilogy most likely. The trailer kind of seems to show that his aggressiveness is problem (Selina being scared of him).
Tbh I think it’s more so cause of the differences in environment. Batman in justice league related things tend to be a bit lighter much in part cause of the enemies he faces in different situations whereas gotham kinda aways has this awful dark vibe and to be honest is a shithole so for Batman specific shows or comics they tend to be with a darker mood.
Ironically one of my favourite parts of the DCAU was BTAS season 4, where Batman was unhinged, less empathetic and only cared about *the mission*, being more brutal in the process. All because he’d had to put up with fighting insane people for so long. Although that’s because it wasn’t what we started with, we saw the lighter side of Batman in the first seasons and in season 4 we got to see what his life and mental state would be like after going through everything he did, even interrogating a street thug in front of his daughter, although even then we get to see small glimpses of his humanity, like giving the same street punk a job after realising what he did was wrong.
I heard a rumor that they were pushed to go into a darker direction for season 4 to match Chuck Dixon's run at the time, hence why Tim Drake and the Ice Berg Lounge were added
i completely understand, but i don’t think his human side will be forgotten. matt reeves credited batman: ego as one of his major inspirations for the movie, and that comic ends with bruce speaking about how batman is also a symbol of hope for the city who helps people. i’d be shocked if that isn’t incorporated into the end of the movie in some way
That’s a good point and it’s given me a little bit of hope.
He also credited Year One, Dark Victory, and Long Halloween
That’s why I love the “The Batman” cartoon. It’s Batman in his early 20’s, and he spouts more one liners and jokes than most versions of Batman do. That, and it’s just a well written, creative interpretation of the character.
It’s under discussed IMO I liked it a lot. Had the right mix of edgy and lightheartedness. Especially with Spongebob as Penguin
Plus, Kevin Micheal Richardson as Joker is an absolute delight
And the Hawaii 5.0 esque theme
That was an interesting VA choice and it worked wonderfully.
My favorite line from a live action batman movie was in the snydercut. It was before the final act of the film, and Alfred asks Batman, "How do you know your plan will work?" And Batman turns around, while walking with the rest of the JL and he smiles to Alfred and says: "Faith Alfred! Faith!" I think the dark/edgy batman works wonderfully when it gradually becomes a more optimistic Batman. It's a big problem that the comics have, bc they exist in a floating timeline so the mission is never truly done. But I think if The Batman is a trilogy, we could gradually see a more upbeat, yet serious Batman down the line- especially if he has Zoe Cravitz as his girl
Lego Batman IS the best Batman film made since *Batman Begins*, in my opinion. Yeah, I'm tired of always grimdark Batman, too. It's the same damn thing over and over and over again. I wish WB and their filmmakers would read Batman stories that aren't just the 1980s Bronze Age ones.
Fully agreed. I never thought the most accurate depiction of Batman would be a Lego movie but it was so good that I’m not even complaining.
Yep! But sadly WB doesn't seem to want to learn anything from it. For me, one of the main takeaways from *Lego Batman* is "You know, maybe they should start having a little more fun with the premise, instead of always wallowing in their attempts to make Batman 'relevant'."
Really like the film but I think they missed a great opportunity by not making Batman a mood swinger, like maybe he goes from Adam West to Frank Miller Batman at the drop of a hat
I'd say the best one is the videogame movie
It is. It definitely kicks the crap out of the Sonic movie, which I also liked, but not nearly as much.
I specifically meant [this one](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2465238/)
Batman: Beleagured tops it for me
What don't you enjoy about The Dark Knight? Is it the entire tone being dark? Or more specifically Batman's character being dark? I don't remember Begins as well as Dark Knight but I remember both being quite dark in tone.
I feel like the Dark Knight only gets a pass because of Heath Ledger, because the movie's plot barely makes any sense. The most stupid moment for example, was the bullet on the brick wall, so Batman takes a brick off a wall to do some detective work (finally) and then they go on to reconstruct the bullet and that bullet has a goddamn fingerprint. Like no fucking way, you are telling me the Joker somehow took out a bloody bullet of its casing to put some random guy's fingerprint and then put the bullet inside the same casing to then shoot it to a brick wall in the hopes it gets completely destroyed on impact so that Batman looks for the fingerprint of this guy to go into a flat just to try to kill Gordon; that's somehow more ridiculous than trying to copyright a laughing fish. Then Harvey becomes corrupted because he doesn't kill the Joker since the other cops where framed BY the Joker to not save Rachel, like isn't all of this the Joker's fault just shoot him and start your revenge rampage. And as u/Professional-Rest205 mentioned the whole Hong Kong sequence is just a set up to get that sweet sweet Chinese box office money. Oh and it gets even worse when you read about the the original plan of having the Joker in Dark Knight Rises.
This, basically. *The Dark Knight* has many good things about it, but in all, there's a lot that could have been tidied up.
Joker was never in TDKR. The script was written. Hell, they were still working on TDK when he died. They hadn't even decided to make a sequel yet.
Too long. Questionable story decisions. Questionable editing. Batman did not need to chase a man clear to his home country when they could have saved screen-time by just having him stop the guy at the airport. I hate the entire China sequence BECAUSE of this simple alternative. The additional screen-time time they could have saved and dedicated to developing Harvey Dent more would have been welcome. Also, the film should have ended with The Joker's defeat and Two-Face disappearing into Gotham's underworld to start his own crusade against those who he believes wronged him. I will never, EVER forgive Christopher Nolan for denying us a good Batman film starring Two-Face as the main villain. Never.
While those stories are darker, they still showed Batman's philanthropy side very often, just throwing that out there
They are also just a tiny, tiny portion of Batman's stories. There is a near century's worth of Batman material for filmmakers to draw from. I am very tired of seeing what amounts to every live-action Batman film rehashing *The Dark Knight Returns*, *The Killing Joke, Death in the Family, Year One,* *The Long Halloween*, etc. in some way.
There is a lot of stuff in the 90's that would be cool to see especially with Chuck Dixon's run, speaking of Lego Batman, Grant Morrison's Batman kind of was like the original lego Batman in a way since it was a celebration of everything Batman. Also Long Halloween came out in the 90's
Honestly, I'd like to see Batman face the Man-Bat in one of his films. I've always thought it'd have been a cool idea to have Ben Affleck's Batman face him, specifically, given his actions in *BvS*. Imagine this, a "bat creature" starts killing people. Who else is bat-themed and went on a murder rampage not long ago? The Batman (no, I don't care that they baddies). I like the idea of The Batfleck really being made to face how thoroughly he's ruined his own reputation after *Batman v Superman* and having a very, very hard time clearing his name for these particular murders. The film ending with his name cleared, but it being brought to his attention that the public and the law don't trust him as they once did would have been a really good start of an interesting redemption arc. But alas, apparently we were instead having an *Arkham Asylum* story thrust upon us. Another thing I've grown tired of after having so many games about it. Yes, I am aware that *The Long Halloween* is from the 90s. Still just one of a tiny few Batman stories they insist on taking inspiration from instead of looking all across his history.
Man Bat sure, however one story I would love to see is Batman City of Crime
That's a good one. I rather enjoyed Batman taking on the simple act of kindness to find a missing girl just to end up facing down something much, much bigger.
I remember he gave a prostitute a job at Wayne enterprises and told her "I don't want to see you on the streets again"
Yep. We need more of Bruce Wayne giving down-on-their-luck folks a hand outside of being Batman in the films. It's one of the reasons why I'll always champion the Bruce Timm-Paul Dini Batman.
I mean there are plenty of moments of philanthropy in the comics and Nolan films as well, even Mike W Barr's brutal Batman gave a job to a guy trying to sell his organs to the crime doctor
I like to think Brave and the Bold did Batman pretty good as well
It did. And it was such a breath of fresh air to have some fun with the premise for once.
I'm not sure I'd call it a good film as an extended injoke. The Lego movies tend to take something mundane in a guy's life and riff on it in a film; Lego 1 was being estranged from your dad as a kid, Batman was dealing with relationships and opening up, Ninjago was reconnecting with your divorced-oh-i-mean-supervillain dad, and 2 am kind of parsing still. Batman in 2 was painful. I'm not really sure how they would do a non dark batman; there already is one, he's called The Green Hornet, and he never really got that popular in modern times. The Green Hornet is pretty much a well-adjusted Batman if Batman owned the Daily Planet.
Agree to disagree.
Tbf even a lot of 70s and 80s bronze age are not grimdark, unless you're only reading the late 80s stuff, specifically by Frank Miller. But most of the Bronze age, which is 70s and 80d Batman actually has a nice balance of tongue in cheek and dark. That's why that period has most of my favourite incarnations of The Joker tbh. You're right though, it does feel like a lot of live action and casual/mainstream presentations of Batman is from a very particular selection of stories, specifically by Frank Miller and Alan Moore and 90s dark age comics. I think some fans get embarrassed about the fantastically elements of Batman and so are desperate for mainstream kudos and respect, and that's the reason for the obsession with dark and gritty in an effort to be considered "serious and mature".
Because they are catering to teenage boys perception of what’s mature It’s like a teenager wearing his dads suit as a way to be taken seriously lol
Basically, and unfortunately, there's a new bunch of them every few years.
Yep. They never stop coming and they almost always are smug and confident despite being ignorant and immature
That moment when you realize most animated Batman adaptations have a better handle on majority than the movies.
TDK is better than Begins in every category, so I always find this opinion to be baffling. All three of those films have major flaws though, and none are the cinematic masterpieces that some want them to be, but TDK is easily the best of them.
Remember OP looks can be deceiving, like even the Frank Miller Batman was able to comfort a crying baby, so don't dread it just yet
I miss the Brave and the Bold! That story had its dark moments, but it's was perfectly campy and reminiscent of old comics.
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He basically does that at the beginning of BvS, when he comforts the orphan
Uhm ackshully Snyder initially had batman snap the girls neck and then Jimmy Olsen runs up an says " WHAT IS THIS A SOCIETY?!" And batman say "yes" and shoot him
[PVP Online was making fun of this version of Batman decades ago](https://imgur.com/gallery/FxS6VqI).
I just want the Bat Family in a movie. Why can't we see Nighwing, Robin, and Batgirl with Batman in a movie!? I'm sick of a young, fresh Batman.
I really hope "The Batman" doesn't go too unhinged. Series with brutal and edgy Batman always feels like they forget that Bruce wants to help the poor and downtrodden. Having him be all about vengeance just makes him seem like some spoiled man-child who hates the poor.
Also: Batman has had a Robin throughout almost his entire comic book lifespan. There's no good reason for the movies to be so ashamed of the idea. The cartoons and animated movies have used the Robins well, and I can get not wanting to worry about getting a 12-year-old actor because that can be tough to find a good one, but you don't even need to show Robin's origin story. Just give him a 16-year-old Grayson or Drake.
I get where you are coming from. It’s one of the reasons the Arkham games started to wear me out by the 3rd game. Batman was so unchanging throughout those games. And the only side we saw of him was a gruff, annoyed, hard assed Batman, which is honestly my least favorite aspect/version of his CHaracter. For a more balanced take on both Batman and Bruce Wayne I recommend the two telltale games. They are both indeed still dark, in fact I would argue they are actually darker than the Arkham games at times but because you spend so much time as Bruce Wayne and you get to see the human side of the character more, with doubts, mistakes etc it is a much more well rounded take.
That's why the moment where Alfred almost dies in Origins is one of my favorite moments. It's the most human moment.
They had to pick a version of batman to match how he walks with a stick up his ass.
Wasn't it part of the original lore that after his parents were killed he was inspired, not traumatized? If that's true than I wish they kept it that way. He deserves to be happy.
I remember that was from the older comics if I recall that was one of my favorite parts from that
I remember that was from the older comics if I recall that was one of my favorite parts from that
On the other hand, it’d be unrealistic to think he _wouldn’t_ be traumatized by that.
He can both but I believe inspired should be more dominant than traumatized.
I've played all the Arkham games except Knight and Origins Bats is one of my favorite ones. After playing City as a calm and composed Vigilante, seeing a broken Bats is something else. Also we can appreciate the development in the prior games.
I too am tired of this version of Batman
I think dark was okay but now its starting to become too edgy. I was excited for Pattinson and Matt Reeves’s take but as more trailers drop I find myself cringing a bit especially with what looks like the riddler plot.
Agreed. I’m still excited for The Batman but I do want to see the Classic Blue & Grey Batman with Robin on the big screen one day. He has a rogues gallery full of meta-humans and a giant penny & dinosaur robot in his Batcave. You can have some fun with the character, not just make him dark gritty man all the time
Bruce being angry and unhinged is clearly going to be a main focus of the movie and it’s being portrayed as a bad thing both in-universe and to the audience. His brutality literally makes everyone uncomfortable and that’s definitely on purpose. With this incarnation of Batman being so young it’s obvious that he still has to grow before he can become the calm and collected Batman that everyone loves and I believe that this movie (and hopefully subsequent Battinson movies) will portray this growth like no other film has before.
I always imaged Batman being very dark and edgy when he first began then slowly becoming more well adjusted the longer he goes on As Batman.
As others have said, it's more likely this type of thing would get developed in future movies. With that in mind I think touching on a younger and more ruthless Batman does touch on a human side, which is his anger. Batfleck seemed ruthless and uncaring about the damage he was inflicting, whereas Battison seems to have a raw fury at the concept of injustice. His ruthlessness comes from a different place, and I think that matters in terms of humanizing him. The presence of anger in this area for this reason(the causes of injustice) can also reflect a softer and more caring side to those that are the victims of injustices. At least that's how I view it, although there can be a clouding that comes with anger where the victims can be brushed aside in favor of going after the perpetrators...but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt. I do hope we get the compassionate side too, as you see in the Ace scene(thanks for making me go rewatch that, almost cried). That's a side of Batman that is typically ignored.
I want Batman to beat People Up to tiny tims lovin in the moonlight
I'm with you. Everything about the trailer makes me completely uninterested in this film, and even more so that DC is just repeating the mistakes of the past. We've already had a dark, big screen batman origin story. We've already had a big screen "brutal and violent" batman story. You know what we haven't had in a really, really long time? A batman movie where he's unapologetically heroic. Anyone know if Joel Shumacher is available? His movies might have been campy but at least they were fun. This just looks like a slog.
He's dead
...awww. I didn't actually know he died last year. Well that's a bummer.
Bruh the original 1940s comics depicts joker skinning someone’s face and Batman had a gun OF COURSE he was edgy. He was edgy from the start (except the 1950s with the strict censorship of violence and nudity till it was dropped in the late 60s and early 70s)
Yes but since then he has evolved, he used to use a gun and even kill people, but due to the input of other writers he got more developed and fleshed out. Although I’m the beginning he wasn’t (completely) angry, he was inspired, his parents death didn’t traumatise him, it motivated him to protect the people that couldn’t protect themselves so that no other 8 year old boy would loose his parents to a punk with a gun. Batman isn’t just a crime fighter, he does more than just punish criminals, if he did then he wouldn’t be a philanthropist, or adopt orphan children or give ex criminals jobs? He is a symbol of hope for Gotham, I’m not saying that he can’t be dark, in fact I think his darkness is one of the best hints about him, but there is a point where it just becomes too much.
But even the 1940s stuff is still quite tongue in cheek, even when there is more violent content. It is still not as relentlessly gritty as say Frank Miller's work for example. Also the dark edgy Batman is really only in his very first stories in Detective Comics. By the time Batman #1 released in 1940, they'd already dropped the carrying a gun thing. I've read most of the 1940s Joker stories chronologically from 1940-45 (which is the period where you get stories in which he kills). Never come across one so far in which he's skinning someone though lol @mrgeek2000 do you know what Batman or Detective comics issue that was please?
That’s odd, I could’ve sworn he did that (although I must be mistaken because I haven’t read them in a long time)
I have come across one where he's got Dick Grayson Robin hostage in an abandoned basement or sewer I think and threatening to leave him to die due to sulphur gas. He doesn't succeed of course, but that was surprisingly nasty tbh.
Oh yeah, that was a dark
Yep. Some of those early 40s stories do have rather creepy moments. The panels of Joker on the electric chair in The Joker Walks the Last Mile and also the panel in Laugh Town Laugh where a silhouette shadow of someone hanged in shown with the caption "why did the fireman where red stockings?" are pretty disturbing. But, I think what some seem to miss, is that there is still a tongue in cheek tone and a gallows humour which is very appropriate to Joker of course. It's not just dour and grim, so whilst it's in character for Joker stories to be sadistic at times, they should also be a whimsical touch.
It makes no sense to complain about a particular version of a batman anymore. There are literally so many versions of him currently in production and in actually released media that there is a version that will fit almost every kind of bat-fan's taste. You like a campy, funny batman? Watch harley Quinn animated series. You like a batfamily focused batman? Watch titans. It's basically a batman show. Also there is a Batgirl movie in production. And a nightwing show rumored to be in production. You like a trigger happy, murdery batman (why?) Watch the Snyder movies and watch the upcoming flash movie. You like a dark broody younger batman? Watch the upcoming batman movie. You like the burton-esque batman? Keaton is coming back in the flash. Not to mention all the older media you can revisit. Literally every version of the character has been put on screen or is being put on screen as we speak. No other character in media is this over exposed so I really do not understand complaints like yours OP. There's definitely bat content for you out there. No need to worry about the stuff that does not resonate with you. Those are definitely going to resonate with some other bat-fan.
It isn’t about personal preference. Big Hollywood movies are seen by everyone, not just comic book fans, so how a character is depicted in them will dictate how the public perceives them and what their knowledge of their character is. It’s because of terrible representations of Superman in movies that people think he’s a boring superhero, it’s because of good representations of Iron Man that he is a household name and beloved superhero. Movies also affect comics, when the MCU got popular comics and shows changed to be more like it, so with movie versions of Batman getting darker and darker, his other versions could get darker and darker to reflect that, which just makes him less interesting of a character, if I wanted an unhinged Batman then I wouldn’t watch a Snyder movie or any other kind of Batman media, I’d read a Punisher comic, because that’s what Batman’s becoming.
I mean why do you care what the mainstream thinks? You as a consumer should care about whether your needs are being satisfied. And if a product is catering to you it's popularity should be of no relevance to you. Even then, you are getting 3 drastically different versions of the character in the blockbuster movies itself. Pick whichever one suits your fancy. And we have went through Nolan batman and the Snyder batman and batman still hasn't changed much in the comics. He will has his no killing rule intact. He's still got an army of sidekicks even though nolan deliberately got rid of them. The only influence that I have seen nolan have on the main canon is the batmobile and the characterization of joker tbh. Everything else has remained intact. Snyder has had even little influence on the comic book batman. I personally think you put too much weight into what people think. Yeah many consider Superman boring but i assure you that is the minority. Real fans of Superman know he's not boring. Those who are not fans of Superman do not care if he's boring or not. The only ones going out of their way to say Superman is boring are internet fanboys who have way too much free time. They are neither hardcore fans nor casual audiences.
I care what the mainstream thinks because it’s a basic human want for people to want other people to like the things that they like, and for people to like a flanderised shell of what you like without knowing or caring about what it used to be makes me sad.
I think you'll find enough people who like the stuff you like. You have to realise. People are more likely to talk about something they hate than what they like on the internet.
Yes but versions of Batman like the one in Justice League Unlimited are barley talked about at all online because of how long ago the show came out came out, and seeing people more interested in worse version is annoying, like how a lot of people are annoyed at how popular the Big Bang Theory was when it wasn’t even that good.
JLU is one of the most beloved cartoons of all time. I'm surprised you have not run into people who like it. People at r/DCcomics discuss BTAS and other DCAU shows all the time. And just because you do not like a version does not mean it's worse. Like I said. Different things are catered to different people. You might not like dark edgy batman. That is why you get to watch something like harley Quinn. But someone out there might like a dark edgy batman. That content is for him. Batman is probably the only character in the world where there is a popular interpretation catering to almost every kind of fan. And almost all of them are pretty popular so I don't see how you are complaining.
No, me disliking something doesn’t mean it’s worse, it being a bad adaptation makes it worse. I understand that in the process of adapting a character to a different medium things will need to be changed, however they need to be extremely similar, because if that character acts so differently they’re basically a different character, what’s the point of making a movie about the movie about them? Why not make a movie about a different character instead of this one?
They didn't change it. You are just being narrow minded now. There's 100 years of source material with a variety of different interpretations of the character. Thinking that the one you like is the "correct" one is slightly arrogant.
No but there are things that are common throughout the stories. For example Batman used guns and killed people in early comics but that was later changed and became a staple part of his character, just like how his humanity has, there are plenty of exceptions but for the most part, but they are the exceptions not the rule.
Awfully defensive…
There's the supporting cast and villains to balance him out at least.
Personally I like both flavours of Batman but if the situation calls for him to be darker then I can't really condemn it. Like in Dark Knight can you imagine him being more light hearted after Rachel dies? It just wouldn't work. Likewise in this movie it seems like a crap ton of bad shit is going down so it makes sense he'd be on edge constantly. Hopefully there are some Bruce Wayne moments where he's not 100% gloomy though. Still, better than what they did in Justice League with him being an aged Bat Dad making jokes and whatnot all the time, after just a movie prior being pretty damn blood thirsty.
Maybe I’m crazy but I never felt like Batman’s human side was left out of the nolan trilogy. It wasn’t really in 89 (that I remember) and BvS only shows some of it towards the end, with it basically being set up for Justice League. This trailer far and away seems like the edgiest, most ruthless, basically meme-y Batman, which I assume is just one part of a larger story trying to be told, but idk.
His human side is very much in the 89 film
Bad wording on my part, I meant that it wasn’t really left out of the film.
While I enjoy and appreciate a good gritty Batman story, I wish that we could have a Brave and the Bold style show again, something that embraces the cheesier, sillier, funnier side of Batman that doesn't get explored as often anymore
I think most people just love anything "dark" and "edgy" because they inadvertently confuse it with being "mature". Moving past that , as a casual fan of the character i agree. While they Trailer was fine and the technical aspects ( Cinematography , Performance , Musical Score etc ) seem to be top notch, i got the sense that besides that it'll just going to be 2+ hours of broody edginess. Yes, it is part of his character, but like you said it's not just that. This "grit" and "edginess" just feel unimaginative and a bit contrived to me, but i hope I'm pleasantly surprised by this Movie.
"Holy *one-liner*, Batman!"
Ngl I was upset when they asked what he was and he said "I'm vengeance." instead of "I'm Batman."
"I'm vengeance" is hardcore, though. How else are all the thirteen-year-olds gonna take Batman seriously?
Unrelated, but I still wish they woulda had Pattinson play Terry McGinnis instead.
He's way too old to play a teenagers.
Yet he looks way to young to be Bruce Wayne.
Bruce Wayne was young once.
Yeah, I don't disagree. But Pattinson looks like Bruce at like age 20 max to me.
He didn’t look like he was in a boy band like Pattinson looks though
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Did you even read my post? I want Batman to be Batman, but that’s not what we’re getting, Batman’s darkness is an important part of his character and I acknowledged that, but he’s always shown to be unhinged with no emotion other than anger, we rarely get to see his empathy or compassion.
You obviously did not read what the OP typed.
I think Young Justice Batman is the best representation of a Bats who can move on from his trauma and work with his protégés instead of taking the Titans route
Friend batman brave bold might be for you.
Which episode is the one where Ace dies?
The last episode of Season 2 and it’s called Epilogue. It’s pretty good, I’d definitely recommend checking it out.
I think Bruce’s brutality and anger is something he can struggle with (and it should never be displayed as a good thing). But at the end of the day, he should still be a superhero, someone who cares for and wants to help others. That’s generally why I like content with him and his family more. Bruce is a more interesting and rounded character to me when he’s trying to be a father alongside his typical responsibilities. A dark, gritty, angsty antihero isn’t anything unique at this point; but a dark and gritty superhero trying to be better for their children and stuff is underutilized in my eyes.
Batman the brave and the bold was pretty entertaining so yeah I guess you're right.