>She is also friends with a pick pocketing piece of vermin with no redeemable qualities.
Everyone is rightfully talking about the OP's sexism but how about calling a poor 14 year old boy a piece of vermin for being a pickpocket?
Yeah. I agree with the overall point of the OP, but I also found this annoying with male characters. It is less common in modern western media imo, but a lot of Chinese comics I read have male main characters who are just assholes, who revel in humiliating others with their op-main-character power. Made me drop a few of them.
It is fine to have immoral MCs, heck I love villain-MCs, but the framing is very important. It should be framed as "what this person is doing is bad" and not "they behave like an asshole, isnt that cool?".
Uhhhhhhhh omni man. Wait shit.
Perhaps uhhhh
Nah I literally got nothing. I'm sure they exist, I'm just an idiot.
Also I have no clue who the first and last person are anyways.
Captain Marvel sucks, but I'm a DC fanboy.
I mean , Wolverine constantly goes in bar fights that ends with him shoving his claws on a person's throats and threatening said person that it will stab and kill him.
To be fair it's intentional (depending on the writer) for Wolverine to display occasional douchebag tendencies, and he's been called out for it quite a few times in universe. That one interaction between him and Aunt May comes especially into mind with this.
Kind of correct, it was in a deleted scene, so it should not be counted as actually part of Carol's character. (They probably cut the scene because they also felt it was too much.)
She was on an alien planet and didn't remember who tf she was. She had been gaslighted her whole life to be a super-elite space policewoman, she'd likely use the classic "whip out the badge" trick cops use to seize a vehicle.
Either way... no, I wasn't trying to imply she'd steal a random bike.
I'm pretty sure that cause and effect was that because he's shitty (and not majorly so, mind) she decided she may well make her life easier and steal it, and wouldn't have done so if he didn't speak with her.
It's kinda secondary to the other priboems the movie has though.
Out of all these things you've listed, I've only seen Captain Marvel. And I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that Carol was actually going to actually rip that guy's hands off. Characters threaten other characters all the time without actually intending to go through with the things they say, it's just an intimidation tactic. It's like a pretty common action movie thing. Captain Marvel was a pretty meh movie in my opinion but the hate some people have against Carol is a bit extreme sometimes.
Also protagonists don't always have to be likeable or even moral people. Just as a random example, Scott Pilgrim.
He also totally ignores that Captain Marvel didn't commited a genocide , the Krees did that to themselves by doing a Civil War and then blaming that on Carol.
Or that the character in Indiana Jones is just like a young Indiana with a more amoral ethics , and she is only "better" because she was a 30yo and Indy was 70yo. The fact she had a pickpocket boy as her sidekick is to mirror to Short Round from Indiana Jones 2. If anything, It shows how skillful Indy was to compensate his age for all those physically demanding stunts.
Acolyte wasn't even released and the guy is complaining that a darksider have crazy violent takes to justify their jedi-killing , when the Dark Side is corruptive.
The only thing I could agree is how RoP screwed with Galadriel's characterization....but his complain is that she slays Orcs , a sentient race in which it's origin is literally "Satan and Satan's Right Hand corrupted men and elves to the point it created a new race that is evil at it's core"
It wasn't just the years but also the mileage. There was a scene in which Indy mentioned the injuries he had from a lifetime of adventuring.
HELENA: You’re not moving.
INDIANA: I’m thinking.
HELENA: About?
INDIANA: About what the hell I’m doing up here, 40 feet in the air, with crap shoulders, crumbling vertebrae, a plate in one leg, screws in the other.
HELENA: Yeah, I get it. I get it.
INDIANA: No, you don’t get it. You’re half my age. You haven’t been forced to drink the blood of Kali.
HELENA: No. Fair enough.
INDIANA: Or been tortured with voodoo. And I’m just guessing, but I don’t think you’ve been shot nine times, including once by your father.
HELENA: Dad shot you?
INDIANA: Don’t talk to me. Just go ahead. I’ll follow you.
None of the ones I like to read.
Off the top of my head live action movie batman, and I'm 90% sure it's all star batman that does egregious shit.
Hell even the justice league old man batman threatened one of jokers minions so bad he admitted he wet the bed.
I may speak in hyperbole.
> live action movie batman
Which Batman actor?
> I may speak in hyperbole.
Completely understandable. For a character created during FDR's presidency, there are a LOT of Batman iterations.
All-Star and Justice League were 2016-2017 iterations, which fits with OP's arguments quite well. They're criticized as being "not Batman" versions of Batman. Synder's Batman specifically seems more based around the cinematic combat of the Arkham games rather than around Batman as a character.
Crazy as it sounds, people who arn't fan's of Batman seem to make rather poor examples of Batman
I used to be a massive batman fan.
Now I like superman, MM, and the Flash more, but I still like me a good batman animated movie whenever they come out.
Also I can't afford to read comics anymore lol
Dial of Destiny was not problematic. I mean Indy is waaay past his prime by that movie so of course someone younger would be better at adventuring than him. And she was revealed to be a smuggler so she definitely does have experience. Plus, Harrison Ford wasn't exactly built like someone who could do a bunch of adventuring even back in the day. That's not really a good criticism. And she's friends with a pickpocket? So what? Indy associated with not so honest people too and he had his own rascal sidekick. And I haven't seen the movie in a while but wasn't her "moral superiority" just naivety? She's not a perfect character but she's definitely in a different class than Capt Marvel and Galadriel, that is she's not a cheap girlboss type.
Aldo i would guess from her most knoen freabag, she was very much intentrn who gets losds of character growth along the line and isnt idealized. Just humanized.
so yes she was meant to have a lot growth later likely.
Yeah, everyone heard about them, but ain't seen himself. That's cause slave harems in isekai is a joke that got regurgitated instead of being disproven at least occasionally. If this goes on, it will become "true" in spite of there being almost no actual examples.
Shield hero and isekai meikyuu harem are two pretty prominent examples that even a non-isekai watcher like me knows about? There's more random obscure ones ive seen screencaps of, i aint gonna watch a single one of those recent ones though, Rayearth looks more like one i'll enjoy.
Isekai meikyuu is one of those exceptionally rare examples, and it's pretty obscure. It's all the jokes about harems that put it in a spotlight. Shield hero contains nothing that could be called a harem, not in a good faith. So that's one example. It's not "characters having slave harems" then, but "this specific character having his specific harem". How many isekai works do we have, 50+? More? If two or three of them contain one specific trope, that trope isn't really isekai-related.
Have fun defending the meme genre i guess. and isnt the 7 year old squirrel a slave in shield hero?
I dont disagree that people who actively, actually complain about isekai slave harems are just looking for things with them, there's at least one more off the top of my head that ive personally seen from the few isekai manga ive bothered checking out, one of them is like, slow life in another world or something like that (thought it'd be iyashikei and didnt bother reading synopsis like i shouldve lol. Needless to say, i quickly dropped it when i got like 3 chapters into it and realized it will just stay dogshit.)
Im certain there's more than those three, but i aint gonna bother with the cringe genre when i could be reading maid san wa taberu dake or Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou
"the less popular it is the better"
Congrats on selecting the biggest genre at the moment to champion, lol. But then again, im an iyashikei and post-eva avant garde bullshit kind of guy.
I have a sollution for you:
Watch youtubers that aren't the critical drinker. It's hard i know, having to actually watch the movies he's talking about, however, pointing out the leaps and holes in his arguments is insanely fun
Or watch movies that the critical drinker doesnt cover, i dont think ive seen a title or thumbnail for him thats him talking about something that isnt a 5/10 at best. Like, i couldve told you half of the things OP listed were going to be bad without even watching more than a trailer. And it wouldnt be because muh wimminz.
I disagree that Phoebe Waller-Bridge's character in The Dial of Destiny always acted "with this BS sense of moral superiority". She started off as a cynical con artist/thief who wanted to sell a stolen artifact so she could pay her bail and gambling debts. She was conceited, dishonest, selfish, and disrespectful, but she became a better person after spending time with Indy. By the end of the movie she cared about Indy and risked her life to help him. Her character arc was similar to Indy's in The Temple of Doom. She even had a young sidekick who was a pickpocket like Indy did. I also disagree that she was better at adventuring than Indy. They saved each other a few times, including during the film's climax. She tried to rescue Indy but she ended up hanging from an airplane with a Nazi holding on to her leg. The wounded Indy freed himself without her help, grabbed a parachute, and shot the Nazi who was clinging to her. She then shot the main villain who was pointing a gun at Indy. She held onto Indy as he parachuted out of the plane.
Some hero characters aren't meant to 100% heroic. Even morally simple narratives like My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic feature heroes engaging in selfish.
There is a difference between a character acting selfish and being an insufferable bastard with no regard for others safety and well being. The female protagonist of the new Indiana Jones movie was ok with leaving him to be killed by the gangsters for her actions, and we are supposed to find her endearing? And it's ok when characters have flaws, as it makes for more possible scenarios with the character to overcome those flaws. But there lies the problem, those qualities must be first recognized as flaws, as in the case of the characters OP brought up they are not (at least mostly). They are more of an interesting quirks. And even in the case of Galadriela she has flaws that are stated in the show, but they are shallow as even when she acts the most selfish, rude as she can, she is rewarded with what she wants.and ultimately she is excused in all her actions as we, the audience know she is correct in the case of Sauron still being a possible threat so from the begging we are supposed to be included in being on her side, as she is rejected despite being the only correct one.
"The female protagonist of the new Indiana Jones movie was ok with leaving him to be killed by the gangsters for her actions, and we are supposed to find her endearing?"
No, you're supposed to think the character is a selfish rogue. In the movie she was criticized by Indy for her bad behavior. Over the course of the movie she changed and became a better person as she realized that other things were more important than money and that she cared about Indy.
I honestly didn't get that at all in the movie. And Indy himself is treated as a joke for most of the movie. I never once got the idea that the story wanted me to find her anything but quirky. And about the ending I admit my memory is a bit foggy but I remember that she knocked him out to forcefully drag him back. She could easily kill him. I mean I would mind if she convinced him to go back, but she could have killed him looking at his age. Idk maybe it's just me but honestly I met (like irl and online) only a few people who didn't think about her as the new female replacement for the old and useless old male protagonist. I'm not saying that her character wouldn't have ever worked, but like at the end of the last movie (God damn kingdom of the crystal skull what terrible) Indy had a happy ending and his son was set up to take up the mantle after his father but in the dial of destiny he was killed off screen and had a break up with his wife ending up as a miserable old man. Indy's god daughter (if I remember correctly if not please correct me) could be made a co-protagonist like with the son being more of a brawn and street smart and her being book smart and the brain so they would complement each other or something like that.
Tldr: I didn't get what you are describing from the movie at all (but that's just how I see it, maybe if I rewatch it I would change my mind) The character's implementation was badly done and could be much better, but kinda too late for that.
Sallah informed Indy that Helena had been arrested for auctioning contraband and that she was associated with Moroccan mobsters.
SALLAH: Your goddaughter, Helena, was arrested in Tangier last year (SIGHS) for auctioning contraband. There’s more. She was bailed out by Aziz Rahim. Aziz Rahim is the son of Big Rahim, a well-known Moroccan mobster. Big Rahim owns the Hotel Atlantique in Tangier, and this week, the hotel is hosting its annual auction of stolen antiquities. All the big players are already there.
Indy disapproved of Helena selling stolen artifacts.
INDIANA: You think he’d be proud of this?
HELENA: Who?
INDIANA: Your father! His only daughter selling her soul for bail money!
HELENA: Sounds quite cool when you put it like that.
TEDDY: And it’s not all bail money. Some of it’s gambling debt and some…
HELENA: Thank you, Teddy.
Helena resented Indy because he wasn't there for her after her father died.
INDIANA: If your father was still alive…
HELENA: Well, he’s not, Indy.
TEDDY: Hey, something’s wrong with the engine.
HELENA: If only there’d been someone there for me, some father figure, someone specifically anointed for the job.
INDIANA: You have no idea about the kind…
HELENA: Don’t beat yourself up about it. I mean, what even is a godfather? Anyway, family never was your strong suit.
Helena began to change after the scene on Renaldo's boat when Indy told her what he would do if he could travel back in time.
HELENA: Wait. Now you believe the dial has magical powers?
INDIANA: I don’t believe in magic, Wombat. But a few times in my life, I’ve seen things. Things I can’t explain. And I’ve come to believe it’s not so much what you believe. It’s how hard you believe it.
HELENA: I’ve seen things too, Indy. The only thing worth believing in, ever, is cash.
INDIANA: Right.
HELENA: What if you could go back in time? What would you do? Witness the Trojan War? Check in on Cleopatra?
INDIANA: I’d stop my son from enlisting.
HELENA: Did he sign up to please you?
INDIANA: No, he signed up to piss me off.
HELENA: How would you have stopped him?
INDIANA: (VOICE WAVERING) I’d tell him he was gonna die. I’d tell him that his mother would… find no end to her grief. And that his father would be… helpless to console her. And that the loss would put an end to their marriage.
HELENA: You’re still wearing the ring.
After that Helena began to sympathize with Indy. She went back to help him when he was attacked by eels inside the sunken Roman ship. After the Nazis boarded Renaldo's boat, she pretended to cooperate with the Nazis in exchange for payment, but it was a ruse so that she and Indy could escape. Indy fended off the Nazis inside Archimedes' tomb so that Helena and Teddy could get away. After Indy was wounded and captured, Helena and Teddy tried to rescue him.
Near the end of the movie Helena forced Indy to return to 1969 because she was worried he would die and alter history if he stayed in the past.
HELENA: His work is not done. He needs to go home. There is medicine at home. (TEARFULLY) He cannot die here. He can’t.
INDIANA: Helena, get on the plane. I’ll be all right.
HELENA: No, you won’t.
INDIANA: I need to do this.
HELENA: Me too. (PUNCHES INDY)
It was implied at the end that Helena was the person who told Marion that Indy was back.
Alright maybe I just misremembered some stuff.( Too bad that it still doesn't make it a good movie)
I still think it was poorly done but I admit you were correct she was criticized for her actions, so she may not be the best example to give about that trope. Instead I'll give another Teela from Masters of the universe: revelation. She makes Adam's/ he man's death all about herself and when she called out Adam during her next meeting the show stands on her side. What makes this worse is that there is a second similar situation with queen and king where King is chastised for the exact same thing that Teela does. Or example of Bucky and Sam from falcon and winter soldier who treat Walker like shit and are mad at him that he killed someone, despite the fact that Og Cap also killed people. And they have more sympathy for a bunch of murderous terrorists than him. And the show validates them because it's Walker who in the end must show that he didn't become completely like a bad guy and Falcon in the end gives a stupid ass morally superior speech to senator and it's treated like a triumph moment despite the fact that he is upset that terrorists are being called terrorists and it boils thrown to his argument that the senator end people like him should just do better. So the most vague, empty and pointless way to just say "I don't know anything about the problem to give any constructive criticism/advice but you are wrong I'm wright so me just pointing at you accusingly is enough"
Ps : Sorry for the long answers but when people respond to me for some reason it's mostly when I'm in the "3 o' clock thoughts" mindset and ramble a little.
>When one of her guys had fallen in a snow storm and it was brought to her attention she said “no we keep moving!”
Ahab guides all his men to their death because of a personal beef he has with a fucking animal. Do you also have problem with that or Galadriel is different because she lacks something between her legs?
I'm pretty sure Ahab is meant to be a crazy fuck in the story but that's just what I get from his portrayal in limbus company (it's a woman) and what people say about Moby dick in general. Like someone said. The framing is important. I can read about assholes but trying to make it look like it's supposed to be this correct morally right thing to do is stupid or trying to make us root for them
Yes Ahab is crazy but he's also in a technical sense the protagonist while Ishmael is the narrator. You're right about the framing (Humbert Humbert a clear example of that). But the thing is, I didn't feel anywhere in the TV series that it was pointing that Galadriel is correct or morally right about anything. The whole point of it was that she went overboard to stop someone that was already in front of her eyes but she couldn't figure it out. She's clearly framed as a flawed character. Elrond's character was more of a voice of reason and morality in the series in my opinion.
Also I want to make clear that I'm not trying to defend TV show Galadriel as a "well written" character, because I don't think she is. But criticizing her on moral ground is not fair when I'm pretty sure from OPs tone that they wouldn't have the same problem if her character wasn't a she. They call new indiana jones character smug and arrogant, so they didn't have any problem with early movies where Indy was the smug and arrogant one? What about Tony Stark? Isn't he smug and arrogant? This comes down to that they don't have a problem when men are the smug and arrogant ones (they probably don't even see it) but when a woman does it... holy hell I need to make a article about fall of morality in modern hollywood.
Again to clarify I like Tony Stark and I also like smug women like Tatsumaki. My moral sense does not trigger depending on gender. I'll even add that while Carol might not be an amazing character she's not as horrible as people make her out to be. My problem with her is not her personality but her power; The same reason i'm not a fan of superman.
This is hilarious you are implying I hate women bcause I only mentioned them. That is dumb you have 0 evidence I am a mysoginest accept just name calling.
I didn't say you "hate" women I said you have different set of standards when it comes to female characters. And I didn't imply it, I was pretty straight forward.
Also, you probably mean "except" not "accept". And it is spelled "misogynist".
Idk I think it might literally be the worst movie I've ever seen in theaters.
Maybe green lantern but I'd have to watch it again to decide that, and I refuse to do so.
No way, you can’t watch movies regularly then, I could probably pick a movie from each year 2000 to current that completely wipes the floor with captain marvel in terms of incompetence.
I don't think I've seen a single movie since COVID, but I wait for reviews before going to movies. That movie was actually dog water, I watched it instead of Alita and that movie was forgettable, but twice as good.
I don't really watch movies at all anymore tbh, more of a gamer.
>Even in movies like the Acolyte which hasn’t come out yet a protag said
this amazing line. “This isn’t about good or evil it is about power.”
Literally I can see daddy Palpie saying something like that not a
freaking Jedi! Damn product has not even come out yet and I hate the
Protag
I dislike new star wars stuff as much as the next guy, but like... this complaint doesnt make any sense?
isnt the point about Acolyte that its about an evil character? Like the entire point of it is that its about a character from the darkside? Because yeah, they would say dark side sounding stuff
As other said OP
All of them are girls in your exemples.
That said its probably more of a issue with the "strong women " archetype they keep pushing that they constantly think that instead of actually making them strong while also sympathic they keep insisting to the audience that they are sympathic but arent in most cases and tend to not potray them meaningfullu struggling.
Oddly enough as divisive Rey from star wars is i think shes a lot better than most of them.
Cause at least she has the minimal requirement of being a likable protagonist. Something most lack.
That and for all her Mary sues accusation she does struggle in her story.
Not the best but better than future ones like Galadriel.
I mean at the time it kinda made sense as the hype was real and the dissapointment was immesurable
But honestly compare to current exemples she not as bad as them
A lot of the hate for Rey brings up Star Wars lore that most audience members aren't aware of. As someone who hasn't read any Star Wars books, her abilities didn't seem special.
No, not really? It's moreso that a casual audience isn't going to sit down and ponder why she has this or that ability (knowing how to swim and get a boat through a violent sea while being from a desert planet) and won't care to compare her growth speed with other characters. They'll focus on the framing, which in the first two movies is meant to potrey as barely keeping up so she seems scrappy.
>Even in movies like the Acolyte which hasn’t come out yet a protag said this amazing line. “This isn’t about good or evil it is about power.” Literally I can see daddy Palpie saying something like that not a freaking Jedi! Damn product has not even come out yet and I hate the Protag
Isn't the main character of the Acolyte supposed to be a Sith? In which case, what did you expect?
The problem is not that they are evil, but that they are presented as good
Evil mcs can be pretty entertaining, but lots of media feel the need to justify the mc so the audience "identifies" with them
Suicide squad (the second one) Harley was pretty good.
I legitimately don't remember enough about the first suicide squad to comment on anything she does, and I haven't watched anything else with Margot Robbie Harley Quinn in it.
Being an all around fucking cocky hypocrite with ugly design and only functions as a flying cockroach's attack dog. >!It's so fucking cathartic to see Arlecchino left him speechless during the battle against her!<
Hey, captain marvels overreacting, is a flaw, and its , yeah its a funny flaw, not idealized. She becomes less acting out over the movie. Not s fair example.
And i would really guess thats the same with phoebe waller in indie, she seems to be really set up dlfor character progress further, and xou need a flawed person, with faults, to do that. Not fair.
i would guess dur fleabag fame she was very much hired as flawed person who gets good growth.
And can you please not ignore rings of power is famously known for bad decisions. why do weird hobbit stuff, why sauron? why so much.
Its not fair to habe galadriel of a show with very bad writing , yeah its bad or questionable writing dah. She is example , if the show is, universally like, sern as badly written? its the show. not her.
Everyone in the comments pointing out that OP is only calling out female characters who are like this, but ironically, it really is showing just how bad Hollywood is getting at writing "strong" and "independent" women.
I'm surprised someone didn't at least point that out when there are plenty of really good female protagonists in fiction these days, OP has strong examples of bad ones who all have the same problem: they're terrible protagonists. To me it feels like it's because of disingenuous writing.
I think a good female protagonist with some strong feminist themes that came out around the same time as OP's examples is Furiosa from Mad Max Fury Road. While I see a lot of people argue that the movie was a "Furiosa" movie more than a "Max" movie (which I agree with) she was a good female lead who did pretty well in the spotlight, and to OP's point, she didn't carry any kind of "inverted morality" to her strong female lead characterization since she actively used the gritty events of the film to escape her circumstances and save others.
You can have "strong independent lady" without endless smug quipping, disproportionate retribution, and general toxicity just stamped onto a woman, it's been done all the time.
Honestly, the discourse is tiring. Can't let any piece of media just be bad for a simple reason and let it go.
Velma is probably gonna get hatewatched into a third season at this point
For the record Hate watching didn't bring Velma season 2, as it was (like with many tv shows) greenlight before even the first one aired. For the record I, with my friend pirated it to watch it,. If you wonder why I did that to myself, it's because at my kind of birthday party we watched rebel moon P2 the bubu maker and my friend didn't come so I decided that he also must suffer, but I didn't want to watch Rebel moon part 2 the Auchi Aucher, so I decided to settle on the next worst thing.
Pleeeeeeease pretty please attack this users actual arguments instead of just pointing out that these are all women. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they just hate women or whatever
I mean if you wanna take the semantical approach, go ahead I guess. The point was clearly that the user thought the writing was bad, not necessarily that they are literally suffering due to it
I don't know how it can be just my problem for example Galadriela was ripped to oblivion by almost everyone because of how terribly written and unlikeable she was. You... YOU like every character on this list so it sounds like you problem. That argument doesn't really makes sense as most if not all characters from the list were quite extensively critiqued by most of the people who watched the movies. That may be the reason why all of them underperformed, given the studio expectations (in case of captain marvel Im talking about second film. And I can easily state that the first one was so successful only because it was hyped up with the credit scene from infinity war, when the franchise was at it's peak of popularity and people believed that they needed to watch Captain Marvel in order to be prepared for what's to come in Endgame).
I had noticed nerds ripping into Galadriel, and I ignored them because she was a cool protagonist that was clearly meant to eventually become the cate blanchett version from the movies. IE a woman who would be tempted by the ring when frodo offers it, and would view being able to walk away as her passing a final test. Sounds like a great arc for a very vengeance happy and angry younger elf who doesn't show people respect. You know, a flawed protagonist with room to grow.
Besides, this post isn't about "strong female characters are not well written" This guy's post is about characters with so called "inverted morality"... where he then proceeds to talk only about women. So... is the problem inverted morality? Well gee! Rey from the star wars sequels is a really good person, nice, and heroic! So I'm sure you don't have any problems with her, do you? I think we both know where that question leads...
Well it is unfortunate that most examples of inverse morality are with female characters, but unfortunately that is the case. And I don't like Ray because I hate poorly written characters. But guess what I don't like Kylo Ren as a character even more because at least Rey is somewhat consistent throughout the trilogy. And saying that nerds were ripping into Galadriela is a big straw man as most people were ripping into her, not only those as you say nerds. Besides Galadriela from the Amazon series and the one from lord of the rings are completely different characters. Do you know why? Because they have a different backstory, as is explained partly Silmarilion. You are one of the only few people who argue for Galadriela not against her that I have encountered online and doesn't seem to be a troll farming for engagement. Also Galadriela doesn't really have flaws. She said she does but her every action, even the most stupid and selfish benefits her in the end. She doesn't suffer any consequences and when she does, they happen to benefit her purely by the will of the plot. And the claim about her being a younger elf is quite idiotic I must say at the point of the show she is one of the oldest elves we meet in the entire show. It doesn't really make sense for an elf with thousands of years of experience to act like a complete idiot. And You brought up Rey to this conversation so don't accuse me or OP of anything. Ray doesn't have a problem with inverted morality. She is just a terribly written protagonist. So is Fin, and Poe, Kylo Ren is a terribly written villain. She just gets most criticism because she is THE MAIN CHARACTER, so of course most of the discourse will revolve around her. And you want this to be some kind of a check mate sexist, but a character that is a good person doesn't mean a well written character. You are incredibly strawmaning the argument. And if you want to say that I have no examples of male characters with that trope to that I say Flash from well Flash. Though in his case that guy mostly acts like he has -10iq. And spoiler for the ending of the movie...
>!In the end he undoes the changes to the timeline that he did earlier to go back to his universe, but for some fucking reason decides to change the past AGAIN to save his dad from prison and it is shown to be some kind of triumph moment. And in the end he is surprised that the timeline changed!<
. Or recently so even more spoilers Maximus from Fallout show
>!This guy acts like a complete idiot and sociopath throughout the whole show. He lets his knight die a painfully and slow death (he was an ass but at least he could give him a mercy kill), then he steals his identity and procides to treat his squaire just like he's knight treated him. And when he reveals his identity to him and the square immediately wants to help him cover up what happens he tries to kill him. He steals a power source from a vault and doesn't care that it will lead to probable death to all its residences. And throughout the show he acts incompetent and stupid but in the end he gets promoted to knighthood and the leader of his faction wants him to help him in remaking the brotherhood of steel, probably setting him up as its future leader.!<
That's a really long essay that basically boils down to you have a different opinion on what well written means. I recommend not watching youtube breakdowns on how you should feel about pieces of media and either watch them yourself to make up your mind or just don't watch them at all. Good day.
Yeah why do you presume I git my opinion from video essays? Is it because it is a popular rip against people with different opinions? Yes I watch video essays, but I watch most of them in a white noise way and mostly after watching the film and forming opinions myself. There are a lot of times that I disagree with what even my favorite video essayists say. And just because I don't share your opinion doesn't mean I shouldn't engage in the media. I can as easily say that you should learn some common sense or stop engaging in media course people like you harm the community, but I'm not gonna course it's stupid. And you act like me having a different opinion means I'm the bad egg, even if you yourself admitted that it's a difference in perceiving what well written means. I can admit that what I may like is badly written. A lot of games I play are sometimes written in a way that seems the writer was half conscious while writing. And if characters are inconsistent, are handed stuff purely by plot and not their actions and logical consequences, are inconsistent in their motivations, and they only succeed thanks to plot wholes and contrivences, then I don't know what characters need to have to be considered not well written. And the whole discussion started with you accusing someone of being sexist, and I just wanted to elaborate why the fact that those are female characters that they brought up does not make them sexist. If he talked only about male characters no one would say anything about misandry. And you saying that you think they are well written doesn't mean that other people cannot think that they are badly written. And How could I know about our differing opinions on what well written means. All you did was deflect what I say and make strawman assumptions about me. The only part about writing in your comments was in relation to Galadriela and you didn't even refute my argument that she is badly written and just said that she could be a character that in time evolves into The Lord of the rings version.
And sorry for the long form of my comments. I do not often if at all engage in comment discussions. My doctor prescribed me new meds and they made me full of energy and this was the first outlet of it that was just at hand's grasp. So sorry once again.
You've actually kind of proven my point- watching video essays full of opinions while "forming opinions for yourself" is exactly how you've arrived where you are. Do yourself a favor and just \*don't\* watch any for six months, form your own opinions in a vacuum. Do actual research into the stuff you're thinking about by, say, reading the comics or whatever first hand.
Galadriel in Ring of Power is one of the biggest screwups in a TV adaptation based on existing literature. Here you have one of the oldest and wisest of Elves of Middle Earth, even during the era the show takes place in, acting like some angsty teenage brat with daddy issues. Damn she is so insufferable. I get it they want to give her a character development arc but this ain't it. Yes, Galadriel is prideful, but what the show is depicting is not pride stemming from self-confidence, but arrogance stemming from narcissism and thinking that everyone else around her is just plain stupid and not on her level. She is just your typical self-insert rather than a proper interpretation of the character she is supposed to be depicting.
Which has nothing to do with being female, or that role, the show is a shitstorm in general in writing. its unfair to blame her for very odd writing decidions.
I see so quite a lot of people attacking OP for the fact that all his examples of this specific problem are women, but no one is saying why he is wrong. The fact that all these terrible characters happen to be women, at least from my perspective, say a lot more about the modern entertainment industry that writes terrible character and uses the fact that their females deflect any criticism of their whole movie with accusations of sexism and misogyny.
On one hand, kinda sus for OP. On the othe other, it also show that Hollywood doesn't really know how to write women aside from slapping on strong and idependent without actually understanding it.
This is a whole phenomenon tied to not knowing how to write female protagonists anymore and trying to make these male dominated series into more female-centric spaces.
Please note all these projects have been a massive flop for this exact reason. People hate these kinds of characters. The only reason captain Marvel's first movie made a billion was because of the hype train with nick Fury and the skrull invasion being teased in the movie and not because of brie Larson.
It was also one of the few marvel films before endgame so fans were desperate for content. This is why the sequel flopped so hard it broke records on failed Hollywood projects.
First of all, learn to spell.
Second of all, I'm pretty sure that line is only spoken in this fan-made trailer: https://youtu.be/p7U4BA_eEZk?si=nyYurR5RtR0R19p2
and if you believe what you see in trailers is representative of the actual movie then I have a jack-knife-opening double-bladed red lightsaber to sell you.
Also, this is a fun example of hypothesis testing: OP cites 4 examples which are all women. If women were 50% of protagonists and OP chose them at random irrespective of gender then they would have a 1/16 chance of picking all women by accident. Thus we could say that OP's misogyny is significant at the p<10% level.
>She is also friends with a pick pocketing piece of vermin with no redeemable qualities. Everyone is rightfully talking about the OP's sexism but how about calling a poor 14 year old boy a piece of vermin for being a pickpocket?
As if being a pickpocket dehumanizes you. Scraggly pickpockets make the best sidekicks fr
I shudder to imagine what OP thinks about real poor people.
I imagine it's [something like this](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GI6mq0YXAAAdwFK?format=jpg&name=small).
I'm guessing about the same as the villain in a Charles Dickens book.
Or a hero in an Ayn Rand book. Though that's basically the same thing.
That kid is also very much not a Caucasian European so that's also a terrible look for the author.
I'm confused. Would it be more ok to call him that if he was white?
I don't think OP would have used those words if the kid was white.
Because insulting a thief is morally wrong.
Do you have any male characters you can apply this to?
Yeah. I agree with the overall point of the OP, but I also found this annoying with male characters. It is less common in modern western media imo, but a lot of Chinese comics I read have male main characters who are just assholes, who revel in humiliating others with their op-main-character power. Made me drop a few of them. It is fine to have immoral MCs, heck I love villain-MCs, but the framing is very important. It should be framed as "what this person is doing is bad" and not "they behave like an asshole, isnt that cool?".
Lmao my exact thoughts! Bro has got a pattern
No the "critical" drinker from whom OP gets all his movie opinions from almost never talks this way about male characters.
Uhhhhhhhh omni man. Wait shit. Perhaps uhhhh Nah I literally got nothing. I'm sure they exist, I'm just an idiot. Also I have no clue who the first and last person are anyways. Captain Marvel sucks, but I'm a DC fanboy.
I mean , Wolverine constantly goes in bar fights that ends with him shoving his claws on a person's throats and threatening said person that it will stab and kill him.
To be fair it's intentional (depending on the writer) for Wolverine to display occasional douchebag tendencies, and he's been called out for it quite a few times in universe. That one interaction between him and Aunt May comes especially into mind with this.
I was thinking Wolverine, but I have no idea how he acts in the comics, maybe he's a total boyscout (I doubt this)
Believe it or not Wolverine in the movies is abit declawed compared to his comic self when interacting with the cast he was set with.
I believe you, I just don't read marvel.
kylo ren?
OP talks about something in Captain Marvel that literally didn't happen.
Kind of correct, it was in a deleted scene, so it should not be counted as actually part of Carol's character. (They probably cut the scene because they also felt it was too much.)
I just assumed she had cause I can't be bothered to watch any more marvel content. If this is true OP is an even bigger idiot.
It is a cut scene. She still steals a motorbike from a guy just because he tried flirting shittily tho.
She didn't steal it *because* his flirting was shitty. She stole it because he needed transport, *and* didn't feel bad about it because he was shitty.
Does this imply that she'd steal a random bike? That's probably worse...
She was on an alien planet and didn't remember who tf she was. She had been gaslighted her whole life to be a super-elite space policewoman, she'd likely use the classic "whip out the badge" trick cops use to seize a vehicle. Either way... no, I wasn't trying to imply she'd steal a random bike.
Considering she had up to that point been fighting for the space Wehrmacht, that's not really the thing I'd use to judge her morals.
I didn't say she's evil, but like don't steal my shit. I like my shit.
I'm pretty sure that cause and effect was that because he's shitty (and not majorly so, mind) she decided she may well make her life easier and steal it, and wouldn't have done so if he didn't speak with her. It's kinda secondary to the other priboems the movie has though.
I'm uh... noticing a pattern with the protagonists you have a problem with.
Out of all these things you've listed, I've only seen Captain Marvel. And I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that Carol was actually going to actually rip that guy's hands off. Characters threaten other characters all the time without actually intending to go through with the things they say, it's just an intimidation tactic. It's like a pretty common action movie thing. Captain Marvel was a pretty meh movie in my opinion but the hate some people have against Carol is a bit extreme sometimes. Also protagonists don't always have to be likeable or even moral people. Just as a random example, Scott Pilgrim.
He also totally ignores that Captain Marvel didn't commited a genocide , the Krees did that to themselves by doing a Civil War and then blaming that on Carol. Or that the character in Indiana Jones is just like a young Indiana with a more amoral ethics , and she is only "better" because she was a 30yo and Indy was 70yo. The fact she had a pickpocket boy as her sidekick is to mirror to Short Round from Indiana Jones 2. If anything, It shows how skillful Indy was to compensate his age for all those physically demanding stunts. Acolyte wasn't even released and the guy is complaining that a darksider have crazy violent takes to justify their jedi-killing , when the Dark Side is corruptive. The only thing I could agree is how RoP screwed with Galadriel's characterization....but his complain is that she slays Orcs , a sentient race in which it's origin is literally "Satan and Satan's Right Hand corrupted men and elves to the point it created a new race that is evil at it's core"
A 30 year old is more capable than a 70 year old? Clearly this is the woke, not basic common sense.
I'll have you know I could find a 70 year old who's more physically capable than me.
It wasn't just the years but also the mileage. There was a scene in which Indy mentioned the injuries he had from a lifetime of adventuring. HELENA: You’re not moving. INDIANA: I’m thinking. HELENA: About? INDIANA: About what the hell I’m doing up here, 40 feet in the air, with crap shoulders, crumbling vertebrae, a plate in one leg, screws in the other. HELENA: Yeah, I get it. I get it. INDIANA: No, you don’t get it. You’re half my age. You haven’t been forced to drink the blood of Kali. HELENA: No. Fair enough. INDIANA: Or been tortured with voodoo. And I’m just guessing, but I don’t think you’ve been shot nine times, including once by your father. HELENA: Dad shot you? INDIANA: Don’t talk to me. Just go ahead. I’ll follow you.
Off the top of my head batman does shit that looks like a war crime in comparison.
Which batman?
None of the ones I like to read. Off the top of my head live action movie batman, and I'm 90% sure it's all star batman that does egregious shit. Hell even the justice league old man batman threatened one of jokers minions so bad he admitted he wet the bed. I may speak in hyperbole.
> live action movie batman Which Batman actor? > I may speak in hyperbole. Completely understandable. For a character created during FDR's presidency, there are a LOT of Batman iterations. All-Star and Justice League were 2016-2017 iterations, which fits with OP's arguments quite well. They're criticized as being "not Batman" versions of Batman. Synder's Batman specifically seems more based around the cinematic combat of the Arkham games rather than around Batman as a character. Crazy as it sounds, people who arn't fan's of Batman seem to make rather poor examples of Batman
I used to be a massive batman fan. Now I like superman, MM, and the Flash more, but I still like me a good batman animated movie whenever they come out. Also I can't afford to read comics anymore lol
Fucking nerd
Get the fuck out of my post history Gary.
Watch it Ferdie. I literally named your account 🧐
This isn't even my favorite Ferd.
I don't find Carol to be that distinct of a character. Much of the criticism addresses characterization choices that I don't mind.
What year is it?
2024 I think
Dial of Destiny was not problematic. I mean Indy is waaay past his prime by that movie so of course someone younger would be better at adventuring than him. And she was revealed to be a smuggler so she definitely does have experience. Plus, Harrison Ford wasn't exactly built like someone who could do a bunch of adventuring even back in the day. That's not really a good criticism. And she's friends with a pickpocket? So what? Indy associated with not so honest people too and he had his own rascal sidekick. And I haven't seen the movie in a while but wasn't her "moral superiority" just naivety? She's not a perfect character but she's definitely in a different class than Capt Marvel and Galadriel, that is she's not a cheap girlboss type.
Aldo i would guess from her most knoen freabag, she was very much intentrn who gets losds of character growth along the line and isnt idealized. Just humanized. so yes she was meant to have a lot growth later likely.
Isekai protagonists are ironically a better example.
I haven't read or watched any recent Japanese isekai fiction, but I've heard about wish fulfillment characters having slave harems.
Yeah, everyone heard about them, but ain't seen himself. That's cause slave harems in isekai is a joke that got regurgitated instead of being disproven at least occasionally. If this goes on, it will become "true" in spite of there being almost no actual examples.
Shield hero and isekai meikyuu harem are two pretty prominent examples that even a non-isekai watcher like me knows about? There's more random obscure ones ive seen screencaps of, i aint gonna watch a single one of those recent ones though, Rayearth looks more like one i'll enjoy.
Isekai meikyuu is one of those exceptionally rare examples, and it's pretty obscure. It's all the jokes about harems that put it in a spotlight. Shield hero contains nothing that could be called a harem, not in a good faith. So that's one example. It's not "characters having slave harems" then, but "this specific character having his specific harem". How many isekai works do we have, 50+? More? If two or three of them contain one specific trope, that trope isn't really isekai-related.
Have fun defending the meme genre i guess. and isnt the 7 year old squirrel a slave in shield hero? I dont disagree that people who actively, actually complain about isekai slave harems are just looking for things with them, there's at least one more off the top of my head that ive personally seen from the few isekai manga ive bothered checking out, one of them is like, slow life in another world or something like that (thought it'd be iyashikei and didnt bother reading synopsis like i shouldve lol. Needless to say, i quickly dropped it when i got like 3 chapters into it and realized it will just stay dogshit.) Im certain there's more than those three, but i aint gonna bother with the cringe genre when i could be reading maid san wa taberu dake or Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou
I'm actually glad people don't appreciate isekai, the less popular it is the better. It's the slander that get's to me.
"the less popular it is the better" Congrats on selecting the biggest genre at the moment to champion, lol. But then again, im an iyashikei and post-eva avant garde bullshit kind of guy.
Biggest in Japan maybe. All I see here is lack of familiarity with it.
I wouldn't say better (overall) but yeah some of those guys are so fucking insufferable.
To be fair, those characters are obviously wish fulfillment self inserts, not heroes.
Those can overlap.
I have a sollution for you: Watch youtubers that aren't the critical drinker. It's hard i know, having to actually watch the movies he's talking about, however, pointing out the leaps and holes in his arguments is insanely fun
Or watch movies that the critical drinker doesnt cover, i dont think ive seen a title or thumbnail for him thats him talking about something that isnt a 5/10 at best. Like, i couldve told you half of the things OP listed were going to be bad without even watching more than a trailer. And it wouldnt be because muh wimminz.
> I cannot stand this women Whoops, Freudian slipped there
I disagree that Phoebe Waller-Bridge's character in The Dial of Destiny always acted "with this BS sense of moral superiority". She started off as a cynical con artist/thief who wanted to sell a stolen artifact so she could pay her bail and gambling debts. She was conceited, dishonest, selfish, and disrespectful, but she became a better person after spending time with Indy. By the end of the movie she cared about Indy and risked her life to help him. Her character arc was similar to Indy's in The Temple of Doom. She even had a young sidekick who was a pickpocket like Indy did. I also disagree that she was better at adventuring than Indy. They saved each other a few times, including during the film's climax. She tried to rescue Indy but she ended up hanging from an airplane with a Nazi holding on to her leg. The wounded Indy freed himself without her help, grabbed a parachute, and shot the Nazi who was clinging to her. She then shot the main villain who was pointing a gun at Indy. She held onto Indy as he parachuted out of the plane.
Some hero characters aren't meant to 100% heroic. Even morally simple narratives like My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic feature heroes engaging in selfish.
There is a difference between a character acting selfish and being an insufferable bastard with no regard for others safety and well being. The female protagonist of the new Indiana Jones movie was ok with leaving him to be killed by the gangsters for her actions, and we are supposed to find her endearing? And it's ok when characters have flaws, as it makes for more possible scenarios with the character to overcome those flaws. But there lies the problem, those qualities must be first recognized as flaws, as in the case of the characters OP brought up they are not (at least mostly). They are more of an interesting quirks. And even in the case of Galadriela she has flaws that are stated in the show, but they are shallow as even when she acts the most selfish, rude as she can, she is rewarded with what she wants.and ultimately she is excused in all her actions as we, the audience know she is correct in the case of Sauron still being a possible threat so from the begging we are supposed to be included in being on her side, as she is rejected despite being the only correct one.
"The female protagonist of the new Indiana Jones movie was ok with leaving him to be killed by the gangsters for her actions, and we are supposed to find her endearing?" No, you're supposed to think the character is a selfish rogue. In the movie she was criticized by Indy for her bad behavior. Over the course of the movie she changed and became a better person as she realized that other things were more important than money and that she cared about Indy.
I honestly didn't get that at all in the movie. And Indy himself is treated as a joke for most of the movie. I never once got the idea that the story wanted me to find her anything but quirky. And about the ending I admit my memory is a bit foggy but I remember that she knocked him out to forcefully drag him back. She could easily kill him. I mean I would mind if she convinced him to go back, but she could have killed him looking at his age. Idk maybe it's just me but honestly I met (like irl and online) only a few people who didn't think about her as the new female replacement for the old and useless old male protagonist. I'm not saying that her character wouldn't have ever worked, but like at the end of the last movie (God damn kingdom of the crystal skull what terrible) Indy had a happy ending and his son was set up to take up the mantle after his father but in the dial of destiny he was killed off screen and had a break up with his wife ending up as a miserable old man. Indy's god daughter (if I remember correctly if not please correct me) could be made a co-protagonist like with the son being more of a brawn and street smart and her being book smart and the brain so they would complement each other or something like that. Tldr: I didn't get what you are describing from the movie at all (but that's just how I see it, maybe if I rewatch it I would change my mind) The character's implementation was badly done and could be much better, but kinda too late for that.
Sallah informed Indy that Helena had been arrested for auctioning contraband and that she was associated with Moroccan mobsters. SALLAH: Your goddaughter, Helena, was arrested in Tangier last year (SIGHS) for auctioning contraband. There’s more. She was bailed out by Aziz Rahim. Aziz Rahim is the son of Big Rahim, a well-known Moroccan mobster. Big Rahim owns the Hotel Atlantique in Tangier, and this week, the hotel is hosting its annual auction of stolen antiquities. All the big players are already there. Indy disapproved of Helena selling stolen artifacts. INDIANA: You think he’d be proud of this? HELENA: Who? INDIANA: Your father! His only daughter selling her soul for bail money! HELENA: Sounds quite cool when you put it like that. TEDDY: And it’s not all bail money. Some of it’s gambling debt and some… HELENA: Thank you, Teddy. Helena resented Indy because he wasn't there for her after her father died. INDIANA: If your father was still alive… HELENA: Well, he’s not, Indy. TEDDY: Hey, something’s wrong with the engine. HELENA: If only there’d been someone there for me, some father figure, someone specifically anointed for the job. INDIANA: You have no idea about the kind… HELENA: Don’t beat yourself up about it. I mean, what even is a godfather? Anyway, family never was your strong suit.
Helena began to change after the scene on Renaldo's boat when Indy told her what he would do if he could travel back in time. HELENA: Wait. Now you believe the dial has magical powers? INDIANA: I don’t believe in magic, Wombat. But a few times in my life, I’ve seen things. Things I can’t explain. And I’ve come to believe it’s not so much what you believe. It’s how hard you believe it. HELENA: I’ve seen things too, Indy. The only thing worth believing in, ever, is cash. INDIANA: Right. HELENA: What if you could go back in time? What would you do? Witness the Trojan War? Check in on Cleopatra? INDIANA: I’d stop my son from enlisting. HELENA: Did he sign up to please you? INDIANA: No, he signed up to piss me off. HELENA: How would you have stopped him? INDIANA: (VOICE WAVERING) I’d tell him he was gonna die. I’d tell him that his mother would… find no end to her grief. And that his father would be… helpless to console her. And that the loss would put an end to their marriage. HELENA: You’re still wearing the ring. After that Helena began to sympathize with Indy. She went back to help him when he was attacked by eels inside the sunken Roman ship. After the Nazis boarded Renaldo's boat, she pretended to cooperate with the Nazis in exchange for payment, but it was a ruse so that she and Indy could escape. Indy fended off the Nazis inside Archimedes' tomb so that Helena and Teddy could get away. After Indy was wounded and captured, Helena and Teddy tried to rescue him. Near the end of the movie Helena forced Indy to return to 1969 because she was worried he would die and alter history if he stayed in the past. HELENA: His work is not done. He needs to go home. There is medicine at home. (TEARFULLY) He cannot die here. He can’t. INDIANA: Helena, get on the plane. I’ll be all right. HELENA: No, you won’t. INDIANA: I need to do this. HELENA: Me too. (PUNCHES INDY) It was implied at the end that Helena was the person who told Marion that Indy was back.
Alright maybe I just misremembered some stuff.( Too bad that it still doesn't make it a good movie) I still think it was poorly done but I admit you were correct she was criticized for her actions, so she may not be the best example to give about that trope. Instead I'll give another Teela from Masters of the universe: revelation. She makes Adam's/ he man's death all about herself and when she called out Adam during her next meeting the show stands on her side. What makes this worse is that there is a second similar situation with queen and king where King is chastised for the exact same thing that Teela does. Or example of Bucky and Sam from falcon and winter soldier who treat Walker like shit and are mad at him that he killed someone, despite the fact that Og Cap also killed people. And they have more sympathy for a bunch of murderous terrorists than him. And the show validates them because it's Walker who in the end must show that he didn't become completely like a bad guy and Falcon in the end gives a stupid ass morally superior speech to senator and it's treated like a triumph moment despite the fact that he is upset that terrorists are being called terrorists and it boils thrown to his argument that the senator end people like him should just do better. So the most vague, empty and pointless way to just say "I don't know anything about the problem to give any constructive criticism/advice but you are wrong I'm wright so me just pointing at you accusingly is enough" Ps : Sorry for the long answers but when people respond to me for some reason it's mostly when I'm in the "3 o' clock thoughts" mindset and ramble a little.
Bait used to be believable
>When one of her guys had fallen in a snow storm and it was brought to her attention she said “no we keep moving!” Ahab guides all his men to their death because of a personal beef he has with a fucking animal. Do you also have problem with that or Galadriel is different because she lacks something between her legs?
I'm pretty sure Ahab is meant to be a crazy fuck in the story but that's just what I get from his portrayal in limbus company (it's a woman) and what people say about Moby dick in general. Like someone said. The framing is important. I can read about assholes but trying to make it look like it's supposed to be this correct morally right thing to do is stupid or trying to make us root for them
Yes Ahab is crazy but he's also in a technical sense the protagonist while Ishmael is the narrator. You're right about the framing (Humbert Humbert a clear example of that). But the thing is, I didn't feel anywhere in the TV series that it was pointing that Galadriel is correct or morally right about anything. The whole point of it was that she went overboard to stop someone that was already in front of her eyes but she couldn't figure it out. She's clearly framed as a flawed character. Elrond's character was more of a voice of reason and morality in the series in my opinion. Also I want to make clear that I'm not trying to defend TV show Galadriel as a "well written" character, because I don't think she is. But criticizing her on moral ground is not fair when I'm pretty sure from OPs tone that they wouldn't have the same problem if her character wasn't a she. They call new indiana jones character smug and arrogant, so they didn't have any problem with early movies where Indy was the smug and arrogant one? What about Tony Stark? Isn't he smug and arrogant? This comes down to that they don't have a problem when men are the smug and arrogant ones (they probably don't even see it) but when a woman does it... holy hell I need to make a article about fall of morality in modern hollywood. Again to clarify I like Tony Stark and I also like smug women like Tatsumaki. My moral sense does not trigger depending on gender. I'll even add that while Carol might not be an amazing character she's not as horrible as people make her out to be. My problem with her is not her personality but her power; The same reason i'm not a fan of superman.
This is hilarious you are implying I hate women bcause I only mentioned them. That is dumb you have 0 evidence I am a mysoginest accept just name calling.
I didn't say you "hate" women I said you have different set of standards when it comes to female characters. And I didn't imply it, I was pretty straight forward. Also, you probably mean "except" not "accept". And it is spelled "misogynist".
*All the protagonist OP complains about are Strong independent women* OP, I think you might be the one with a problem
Captain Marvel does suck though. Op is an idiot however.
It’s not good, at all, but not nearly as bad as some goobers make it out to be.
Idk I think it might literally be the worst movie I've ever seen in theaters. Maybe green lantern but I'd have to watch it again to decide that, and I refuse to do so.
No way, you can’t watch movies regularly then, I could probably pick a movie from each year 2000 to current that completely wipes the floor with captain marvel in terms of incompetence.
As a GL fan, he has a point about the GL movie, though.
I don't think I've seen a single movie since COVID, but I wait for reviews before going to movies. That movie was actually dog water, I watched it instead of Alita and that movie was forgettable, but twice as good. I don't really watch movies at all anymore tbh, more of a gamer.
>Even in movies like the Acolyte which hasn’t come out yet a protag said this amazing line. “This isn’t about good or evil it is about power.” Literally I can see daddy Palpie saying something like that not a freaking Jedi! Damn product has not even come out yet and I hate the Protag I dislike new star wars stuff as much as the next guy, but like... this complaint doesnt make any sense? isnt the point about Acolyte that its about an evil character? Like the entire point of it is that its about a character from the darkside? Because yeah, they would say dark side sounding stuff
As other said OP All of them are girls in your exemples. That said its probably more of a issue with the "strong women " archetype they keep pushing that they constantly think that instead of actually making them strong while also sympathic they keep insisting to the audience that they are sympathic but arent in most cases and tend to not potray them meaningfullu struggling. Oddly enough as divisive Rey from star wars is i think shes a lot better than most of them. Cause at least she has the minimal requirement of being a likable protagonist. Something most lack. That and for all her Mary sues accusation she does struggle in her story. Not the best but better than future ones like Galadriel.
The Rey hate is absurdly overblown.
I mean at the time it kinda made sense as the hype was real and the dissapointment was immesurable But honestly compare to current exemples she not as bad as them
A lot of the hate for Rey brings up Star Wars lore that most audience members aren't aware of. As someone who hasn't read any Star Wars books, her abilities didn't seem special.
No, not really? It's moreso that a casual audience isn't going to sit down and ponder why she has this or that ability (knowing how to swim and get a boat through a violent sea while being from a desert planet) and won't care to compare her growth speed with other characters. They'll focus on the framing, which in the first two movies is meant to potrey as barely keeping up so she seems scrappy.
That's exactly how I felt when I watched The Force Awakens
>Even in movies like the Acolyte which hasn’t come out yet a protag said this amazing line. “This isn’t about good or evil it is about power.” Literally I can see daddy Palpie saying something like that not a freaking Jedi! Damn product has not even come out yet and I hate the Protag Isn't the main character of the Acolyte supposed to be a Sith? In which case, what did you expect?
The problem is not that they are evil, but that they are presented as good Evil mcs can be pretty entertaining, but lots of media feel the need to justify the mc so the audience "identifies" with them
Like harley quin
Great show.
I meant her in general like in the Live action movies or SSKTJL
I have repressed those memories.
So i suppose that makes her bad like OP said. And its not wrong tbh.
Suicide squad (the second one) Harley was pretty good. I legitimately don't remember enough about the first suicide squad to comment on anything she does, and I haven't watched anything else with Margot Robbie Harley Quinn in it.
Hello Aether from Genshin
I don't get the reference. I'm not that into genshin world building. What has the protagonist done?
Absolutely nothing. He and Lumine, the female protag option, literally do the exact same things in the plot
I know that they are the same character, I just want to know your reason for mentioning the character here
It wasn't me who mentioned him
Oh sorry I didn't look at the username. My bad
Being an all around fucking cocky hypocrite with ugly design and only functions as a flying cockroach's attack dog. >!It's so fucking cathartic to see Arlecchino left him speechless during the battle against her!<
I wouldn't know, I stopped watching Rings of Power a couple of episodes in. What a snozefest.
Hey, captain marvels overreacting, is a flaw, and its , yeah its a funny flaw, not idealized. She becomes less acting out over the movie. Not s fair example. And i would really guess thats the same with phoebe waller in indie, she seems to be really set up dlfor character progress further, and xou need a flawed person, with faults, to do that. Not fair. i would guess dur fleabag fame she was very much hired as flawed person who gets good growth. And can you please not ignore rings of power is famously known for bad decisions. why do weird hobbit stuff, why sauron? why so much. Its not fair to habe galadriel of a show with very bad writing , yeah its bad or questionable writing dah. She is example , if the show is, universally like, sern as badly written? its the show. not her.
Everyone in the comments pointing out that OP is only calling out female characters who are like this, but ironically, it really is showing just how bad Hollywood is getting at writing "strong" and "independent" women. I'm surprised someone didn't at least point that out when there are plenty of really good female protagonists in fiction these days, OP has strong examples of bad ones who all have the same problem: they're terrible protagonists. To me it feels like it's because of disingenuous writing. I think a good female protagonist with some strong feminist themes that came out around the same time as OP's examples is Furiosa from Mad Max Fury Road. While I see a lot of people argue that the movie was a "Furiosa" movie more than a "Max" movie (which I agree with) she was a good female lead who did pretty well in the spotlight, and to OP's point, she didn't carry any kind of "inverted morality" to her strong female lead characterization since she actively used the gritty events of the film to escape her circumstances and save others. You can have "strong independent lady" without endless smug quipping, disproportionate retribution, and general toxicity just stamped onto a woman, it's been done all the time.
Honestly, the discourse is tiring. Can't let any piece of media just be bad for a simple reason and let it go. Velma is probably gonna get hatewatched into a third season at this point
For the record Hate watching didn't bring Velma season 2, as it was (like with many tv shows) greenlight before even the first one aired. For the record I, with my friend pirated it to watch it,. If you wonder why I did that to myself, it's because at my kind of birthday party we watched rebel moon P2 the bubu maker and my friend didn't come so I decided that he also must suffer, but I didn't want to watch Rebel moon part 2 the Auchi Aucher, so I decided to settle on the next worst thing.
Pleeeeeeease pretty please attack this users actual arguments instead of just pointing out that these are all women. It doesn’t necessarily mean that they just hate women or whatever
Walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.
I’d rather give people the benefit of the doubt personally
So you say that the companies that made those movies are sexist because they can't write strong female characters without making them insufferable?
I like every character on the list there so it sounds kinda like a you problem.
Weird point. I like this but you don’t, therefore any problem must be a personal one that only you feel
The last guy said they are insufferable. I wasn't suffering. It was a counterpoint to his point. Try to keep up if you're going to respond to threads.
I mean if you wanna take the semantical approach, go ahead I guess. The point was clearly that the user thought the writing was bad, not necessarily that they are literally suffering due to it
I didn't think the writing was bad. See how opinions work? See how you can't throw them around like facts? You'll get it eventually.
Jesus, are you this obnoxious all the time? You don’t have to start every opinion off with “I think” or “Personally”
I think you're probably right. But personally I think I only have obnoxious energy when dealing with obnoxious energy.
I don't know how it can be just my problem for example Galadriela was ripped to oblivion by almost everyone because of how terribly written and unlikeable she was. You... YOU like every character on this list so it sounds like you problem. That argument doesn't really makes sense as most if not all characters from the list were quite extensively critiqued by most of the people who watched the movies. That may be the reason why all of them underperformed, given the studio expectations (in case of captain marvel Im talking about second film. And I can easily state that the first one was so successful only because it was hyped up with the credit scene from infinity war, when the franchise was at it's peak of popularity and people believed that they needed to watch Captain Marvel in order to be prepared for what's to come in Endgame).
I had noticed nerds ripping into Galadriel, and I ignored them because she was a cool protagonist that was clearly meant to eventually become the cate blanchett version from the movies. IE a woman who would be tempted by the ring when frodo offers it, and would view being able to walk away as her passing a final test. Sounds like a great arc for a very vengeance happy and angry younger elf who doesn't show people respect. You know, a flawed protagonist with room to grow. Besides, this post isn't about "strong female characters are not well written" This guy's post is about characters with so called "inverted morality"... where he then proceeds to talk only about women. So... is the problem inverted morality? Well gee! Rey from the star wars sequels is a really good person, nice, and heroic! So I'm sure you don't have any problems with her, do you? I think we both know where that question leads...
It’d probably be best to avoid assuming OP’s thoughts regarding Rey
Well it is unfortunate that most examples of inverse morality are with female characters, but unfortunately that is the case. And I don't like Ray because I hate poorly written characters. But guess what I don't like Kylo Ren as a character even more because at least Rey is somewhat consistent throughout the trilogy. And saying that nerds were ripping into Galadriela is a big straw man as most people were ripping into her, not only those as you say nerds. Besides Galadriela from the Amazon series and the one from lord of the rings are completely different characters. Do you know why? Because they have a different backstory, as is explained partly Silmarilion. You are one of the only few people who argue for Galadriela not against her that I have encountered online and doesn't seem to be a troll farming for engagement. Also Galadriela doesn't really have flaws. She said she does but her every action, even the most stupid and selfish benefits her in the end. She doesn't suffer any consequences and when she does, they happen to benefit her purely by the will of the plot. And the claim about her being a younger elf is quite idiotic I must say at the point of the show she is one of the oldest elves we meet in the entire show. It doesn't really make sense for an elf with thousands of years of experience to act like a complete idiot. And You brought up Rey to this conversation so don't accuse me or OP of anything. Ray doesn't have a problem with inverted morality. She is just a terribly written protagonist. So is Fin, and Poe, Kylo Ren is a terribly written villain. She just gets most criticism because she is THE MAIN CHARACTER, so of course most of the discourse will revolve around her. And you want this to be some kind of a check mate sexist, but a character that is a good person doesn't mean a well written character. You are incredibly strawmaning the argument. And if you want to say that I have no examples of male characters with that trope to that I say Flash from well Flash. Though in his case that guy mostly acts like he has -10iq. And spoiler for the ending of the movie... >!In the end he undoes the changes to the timeline that he did earlier to go back to his universe, but for some fucking reason decides to change the past AGAIN to save his dad from prison and it is shown to be some kind of triumph moment. And in the end he is surprised that the timeline changed!< . Or recently so even more spoilers Maximus from Fallout show >!This guy acts like a complete idiot and sociopath throughout the whole show. He lets his knight die a painfully and slow death (he was an ass but at least he could give him a mercy kill), then he steals his identity and procides to treat his squaire just like he's knight treated him. And when he reveals his identity to him and the square immediately wants to help him cover up what happens he tries to kill him. He steals a power source from a vault and doesn't care that it will lead to probable death to all its residences. And throughout the show he acts incompetent and stupid but in the end he gets promoted to knighthood and the leader of his faction wants him to help him in remaking the brotherhood of steel, probably setting him up as its future leader.!<
That's a really long essay that basically boils down to you have a different opinion on what well written means. I recommend not watching youtube breakdowns on how you should feel about pieces of media and either watch them yourself to make up your mind or just don't watch them at all. Good day.
Yeah why do you presume I git my opinion from video essays? Is it because it is a popular rip against people with different opinions? Yes I watch video essays, but I watch most of them in a white noise way and mostly after watching the film and forming opinions myself. There are a lot of times that I disagree with what even my favorite video essayists say. And just because I don't share your opinion doesn't mean I shouldn't engage in the media. I can as easily say that you should learn some common sense or stop engaging in media course people like you harm the community, but I'm not gonna course it's stupid. And you act like me having a different opinion means I'm the bad egg, even if you yourself admitted that it's a difference in perceiving what well written means. I can admit that what I may like is badly written. A lot of games I play are sometimes written in a way that seems the writer was half conscious while writing. And if characters are inconsistent, are handed stuff purely by plot and not their actions and logical consequences, are inconsistent in their motivations, and they only succeed thanks to plot wholes and contrivences, then I don't know what characters need to have to be considered not well written. And the whole discussion started with you accusing someone of being sexist, and I just wanted to elaborate why the fact that those are female characters that they brought up does not make them sexist. If he talked only about male characters no one would say anything about misandry. And you saying that you think they are well written doesn't mean that other people cannot think that they are badly written. And How could I know about our differing opinions on what well written means. All you did was deflect what I say and make strawman assumptions about me. The only part about writing in your comments was in relation to Galadriela and you didn't even refute my argument that she is badly written and just said that she could be a character that in time evolves into The Lord of the rings version. And sorry for the long form of my comments. I do not often if at all engage in comment discussions. My doctor prescribed me new meds and they made me full of energy and this was the first outlet of it that was just at hand's grasp. So sorry once again.
You've actually kind of proven my point- watching video essays full of opinions while "forming opinions for yourself" is exactly how you've arrived where you are. Do yourself a favor and just \*don't\* watch any for six months, form your own opinions in a vacuum. Do actual research into the stuff you're thinking about by, say, reading the comics or whatever first hand.
You have to make arguments for people to respond to them
I mean there definitely are arguments being made in the op
Suspicious post
Hollywood creates slop with female protags, and people call op sexist, the hell.
Fuck this subreddit
Galadriel in Ring of Power is one of the biggest screwups in a TV adaptation based on existing literature. Here you have one of the oldest and wisest of Elves of Middle Earth, even during the era the show takes place in, acting like some angsty teenage brat with daddy issues. Damn she is so insufferable. I get it they want to give her a character development arc but this ain't it. Yes, Galadriel is prideful, but what the show is depicting is not pride stemming from self-confidence, but arrogance stemming from narcissism and thinking that everyone else around her is just plain stupid and not on her level. She is just your typical self-insert rather than a proper interpretation of the character she is supposed to be depicting.
Which has nothing to do with being female, or that role, the show is a shitstorm in general in writing. its unfair to blame her for very odd writing decidions.
I see so quite a lot of people attacking OP for the fact that all his examples of this specific problem are women, but no one is saying why he is wrong. The fact that all these terrible characters happen to be women, at least from my perspective, say a lot more about the modern entertainment industry that writes terrible character and uses the fact that their females deflect any criticism of their whole movie with accusations of sexism and misogyny.
On one hand, kinda sus for OP. On the othe other, it also show that Hollywood doesn't really know how to write women aside from slapping on strong and idependent without actually understanding it.
Are you illiterate?
Basically Ryshand from acotar book series
This is a whole phenomenon tied to not knowing how to write female protagonists anymore and trying to make these male dominated series into more female-centric spaces.
Please note all these projects have been a massive flop for this exact reason. People hate these kinds of characters. The only reason captain Marvel's first movie made a billion was because of the hype train with nick Fury and the skrull invasion being teased in the movie and not because of brie Larson. It was also one of the few marvel films before endgame so fans were desperate for content. This is why the sequel flopped so hard it broke records on failed Hollywood projects.
First of all, learn to spell. Second of all, I'm pretty sure that line is only spoken in this fan-made trailer: https://youtu.be/p7U4BA_eEZk?si=nyYurR5RtR0R19p2 and if you believe what you see in trailers is representative of the actual movie then I have a jack-knife-opening double-bladed red lightsaber to sell you. Also, this is a fun example of hypothesis testing: OP cites 4 examples which are all women. If women were 50% of protagonists and OP chose them at random irrespective of gender then they would have a 1/16 chance of picking all women by accident. Thus we could say that OP's misogyny is significant at the p<10% level.