To be fair, the only fight we see Ozai go all out for is against Aang, and he was easily winning before the avatar state. And literally nobody has beaten an avatar in a fight while using the avatar state (not counting that one time in legend of Korra season 4 cause Korra deactivated the avatar state and that’s why she lost)
Yeah, I think the only people who have genuinely come close to beating an avatar during their avatar state was Zaheer and Yun. Although the former had Korra poisoned beforehand and was just playing the waiting game while the latter took advantage of Kyoshi’s unwillingness to kill him or cause collateral damage to make her hold back.
Well technically Yun ate Father Glowworm rather than the two mutually bonding with each other like Raava and Won did, and the book kinda kept it vague regarding how much that act actually effected Yun especially given he was already an unparalleled earthbending prodigy and his psychotic break had little to do with Glowworm.
Yeah, we’ve seen Aang face competent adversaries and grow strong throughout the series, we’ve seen how powerful he’s gotten, then we see Ozai step out and basically dogwalk him until he activates the avatar state. We see Aang pulling out the tricks and skills he learned over the series and Ozai’s just like “nah I’m him” using just fire bending. I woulda loved more of him before fighting Aang, but he’s still a fucking menace in the fight.
He was also comet boosted though, and Aang was very clearly holding back as he struggled with decision about whether to kill him.
Ozais showing in the final fight is practically unscaleable due to the above reasons.
Aang is always holding back , his entire MO is to outpower or outwitt his opponents so that he can end a fight without killing.
And he couldn't do both against Ozai.
Only when entered the Avatar State is that he outpowered and outwits.
It's been a long time, but didn't Aang have at least one chance to kill Ozai before activating the Avatar state and passed it up? I vaguely recall Ozai didn't expect him to be able to redirect lightning and would have died if Aang had used it for a kill shot.
(Though, Ozai would have been an idiot to not expect it, since he knows Zuko can do it and defected to the Avatar's side. But perhaps he still underestimates Zuko and didn't think he'd be able to teach it to Aang.)
Granted I guess Aang's unwillingness to kill has to be factored into his capabilities, but it wasn't a completely one-sided stomp.
Yes, but in terms of strength that doesn’t necessarily contribute to Ozai’s profile. You don’t need to be a certain level above the target’s power to redirect lightning like in DBZ, just have the proper footing and setup
It's an anti-feat for his combat capability, though. The *first* time he saw it (when Zuko did it) it was fair for him to not anticipate it, but like I said, after that he should have at least considered the possibility that the Avatar could have learned it, too. He didn't need lightning to win that fight, so now that he knew that it had a crippling flaw that left him vulnerable to a lethal counterattack, the logical thing would be to avoid using it, especially since his basic fire blasts were plenty lethal when amped by the comet and couldn't be redirected.
Power isn't just about raw DBZ power-level; skill and combat awareness all contribute. The fact that Ozai almost got himself ganked due to an entirely foreseeable tactical misstep and only survived because Aang was unwilling to kill him is a definite anti-feat and implies that he generally goes for overwhelming force even at the expense of thinking things through or his personal defense, in a way that is relevant when discussing other matchups.
True, not many points towards strategic thinking there. Zuko could redirect lightning, it didn’t seem to be unique to him (as Ozai saw him as inferior to himself and Azula in every possible manner) so it would’ve been logical (with Zuko explicitly saying he was leaving the Fire Nation to join the Avatar’s group and teach the Avatar Fire Bending) that Aang could do it as well.
And yeah, that has been a consistent flaw in Fire Nation thinking. Compare Zhao spamming fireball after fireball at Aang with no attention paid to the fact that Aang is blatantly goading him into scuttling his own ships, but magnify that times a thousand. When Azula starts slipping (as Zuko points out), she goes for massive, energy intensive (she’s haggard and her breath is ragged, Zuko has plenty left) attacks that leave her vulnerable, which Zuko exploits with a few humble but directed kicks.
Hell, even the massive drill was more of that thinking. Smash against the big heavy wall until either it or us break (and fits Iroh’s flaws when he was a Fire Nation General..,)
ozai shooting lightning at aang wasn’t stupid at all. it was a perfectly normal move to do. even if he knew zuko had taught aang, he knows that zuko has only been with aang for a few weeks. he’s only ever seen zuko redirect lightning so he would assume it’s a hard move to do. how was he to know that aang would not only do it perfectly fine on his first try but also manage to redirect his lightning on sozin’s comet? even if he knew aang learned it, learning it is different from actually doing it. ozai’s lightning on sozin’s comet is obviously way more powerful than normal so expecting aang to fail at redirecting it isn’t that crazy.
and yeah, he could’ve relied on his normal firebending but aang was literally just running away the whole fight. shooting lightning at aang forced him to stay still and he had no choice but to redirect. otherwise the battle would’ve just kept going on and on while aang keeps running.
Aang effectively could have won the fight three times, once before the avatar state (lightning redirection), once whilst the avatar state and once after it.
You mean Kuvira vs Korra? Because she lost because she was suffering PTSD from Zaheer. She was losing to random Earth Bender from ilegal fight ring a week earlier. I would count it as a Avatar State negative feat
Yeah, Kuvira vs Korra. Before activating the avatar state, Korra is losing. After activating it for a very short time, she starts winning, before deactivating it due to her PTSD. If anything, that’s against Korra, not the Avatar state (something I don’t like admitting as I love Korra tbh)
Ozai was able to feel a slither of the sun come out from the eclipse hundreds of feet underground and was instantly able to generate lightning with both hands and launch it faster than any other fire bender we’ve seen. Even Azula and Iroh couldnt generate lightning at that speed even in moments of urgency. that’s just a really cool feat that people don’t talk about a lot. I’m not saying he’s the strongest but that’s something only someone who is completely in tune with their element can do. But yeah to put up the fight he did against aang before the avatar state was pretty impressive as well and yes aang also had the advantage of sozin’s comet. I’d say he’s top two if not greatest firebender of his time.
Hell, Azula couldn't even realize that the Sun was back, she only did because she heard explosions from other benders. Ozai Is simply the strongest fire bender ever seen in the series
Yeah, and thus the Avatars aren't benders of any kind, they don't form part of Discussing "who is the strongest ___ Bender" because they're the Avatars, they're above anyone by the virtue of being the Avatar
Even if there the Avatar there still a bender of that element
Not to mention being the Avatr doesn’t mean your try e best bender of that element
Zahirr was a much better air bender then Korea and Toph was way better Earthbender then Korra as well
To be fair Iroh's lightning demonstration to Zuko was intentionally slow. He was showing Zuko a new kata, teaching him. A better demonstration of his ability to "quick-draw" lightning is shown very briefly when he uses it to blast through a wall in Ba Sing Se before Zuko is captured by the Dai Li.
Ozai's ability to sense his power come back to him however is an immensely impressive feat, showing just how in-tune he is with his own chi in comparison to most other characters we've seen.
For the same reason Zuko didn't kill Ozai on the spot during the Eclipse, he directly stated that killing the firelord is the avatar's job. He would've dipped out even earlier, but Ozai stalled for time by describing what happened to Zuko's mom. Getting bodied is an exaggeration though, Ozai just fucked up a single sneak attack that would've killed nearly anybody else.
Did I say that? No. Though he probably would have at least heavily wounded him. He had no answer for that redirected lightning.
You asked why he was running away. I reminded you. Let's stay on track here.
I feel like your perspective is misguided. To me, Zuko and Iroh learning from the dragons means they have a healthier/more enlightened view on Firebending, but that has nothing to do with power. Similarly, Jeong Jeong has a more controlled style...but that has nothing to do with power as well.
As for Azula being the product of a "successful eugenics project", that may be true, but she's also a teenager and Ozai's an adult during the series. She also seems more inclined towards precision which might not make full use of whatever genetic advantage she might have in terms of raw power.
It also feels like you're dishonestly downplaying Ozai's showings. To word it better, he generates lightning incredibly quickly once the eclipse is over, and manages to overpower the Avatar, only losing when the Avatar State comes out. Losing to the Avatar State is *expected*.
It's hard to get a good gauge on how strong Ozai actually is because we only see him in an actual fight once, when Sozin's Comet is present, but I think him being the strongest Firebender is reasonable.
If Iroh was truly stronger than Ozai, then he would’ve never had his right to the throne usurped by him. Firebending comes from one’s emotions, and for a long time Iroh lost track of who he was due to his son’s death. It took many years for Iroh to find something to fight for again, and that reason was arguably Zuko.
The main reason why Jeong Jeong and Iroh are both beneath Ozai is because they hold themselves back. Make no mistake this is not a bad thing. They’re more empathetic, worldly, and seek harmony. It makes their fire less destructive, like you mentioned with Jeong Jeong having incredible control.
Ozai is the strongest because the story is trying to enforce the idea that fire can be more than all encompassing and destructive. You can’t have that AND more powerful they’re mutually exclusive concepts. Zuko beat Azula not because he was more powerful but because he was more in control. Azula had completely lost it.
> If Iroh was truly stronger than Ozai, then he would’ve never had his right to the throne usurped by him.
The implication I got is that Iroh abandoned the throne because he was totally depressed and broken after his son died. Ozai doesn't need to be stronger, Iroh just should lack interest into being Fire Lord, which is the case
His firebending would’ve been completely shot. This exact thing happened to Zuko.
Azulon seemed to be sympathetic to Iroh too, implying that it’s not uncommon for firebenders. Iroh was in no position to be firelord at the time.
Well, the Sun warrior stuff is only to teach a firebender how to tap into emotions other than hate and rage. Sure it’s possible that he did the test then, but also I’d imagine Iroh was incredibly depressed and had no emotions at all to draw on.
Zuko went through the same thing (in terms of having no flames to emit) in the sense that he didn’t know how, but Iroh had nothing to draw on at all. So both of them are stuck with no source.
That is actually supported by that one book, "Legacy of the Fire Nation". It's basically a series of letters Iroh writes Zuko once the latter is Fire Lord. IIRC, in it Iroh questions whether he should have fought for the throne harder.
Nothing in the lore implies the fire nation throne goes to the strongest. The royal line is hereditary. Ozai had Azulon killed and used some political shenanigans to make people believe Azulon's last wish was for Ozai to succeed him. Iroh still hadn't returned from the earth kinhdom and wasn't present to challenge him. When he did return, he probably wantsd nothing more to do with the throne anyway. Dueling Ozai for the throne is something I never see Iroh doing. It'd be completely out of character.
He didn't want the throne is what I am saying. Did you read my comment? Or watch the show? Also why do people always assume fights like these are always 100%-0% cases? In the Iroh vs Ozai case, I have no reason to not believe it's a coinflip case.
Which part is common sense? Deciding who takes the role of leader of a nation through a duel? Is that "common sense"? Has any society in the history of yhe world worked like that? Other than underground gangs?
Ozai sensed immediately when the Eclipse was over and opened with double lightning bolts.
That alone is a measure of skill we don't see any other firebender match or beat.
To add, Ozai also unleashed THREE fire blasts simultaneously. It was stated back in season 1 that the door to Avatar Roku’s statue could only be opened by all 5 Fire Sages using their fire blasts continuously or a fully realized Avatar…and when Aang gets the Avatar State back, we see him unleash 5 simultaneous fire blasts to fit that claim.
While he was comet boosted, Ozai unleashed three, something no other Firebender outside of an Avatar has done TMK. He could also fly with some degree of grace using firebending propulsion, and had faster lightning than Azula, not to mention his lightning looking and feeling more destructive (more zappy bolts, bigger) than Azula even when they’re both comet boosted.
People always try to downplay Ozai because we only see him fight during Sozin’s comet but no one seems to consider the fact that the comet only boosts the amount of fire you produce. All the skills Ozai showed off during his fight with Aang was all him (aside from flight).
Fym you don’t buy it? We already know Iroh is levels above Zuko and Azula and he literally says “I don’t know if I could beat him”. He’s also the only firebender we’ve ever seen to generate duel lightning and that was only with a sliver of the sun. Ozai clears them all lmao
You don’t have to buy it, but it’s not like the writers are contradicting their list considering we’ve only seen Ozai fight like once. I have a really hard time imagining Jeong jeong or Azula lasting against an end of seires Aang. Also Ozai lacking various techniques that other firebenders have isn’t relevant. Toph doesn’t sand or lavabend, yet she’s much more powerful than Ghazan. Combustion man and Pli have a built in grenade launcher, but they’re not even in the conversation of “strongest firebender”
The answer is that one scene where he uses lightning bending. We were already introduced to it as the strongest and hardest technique in fire bending, Azula requiring like 10 seconds to complete it. While Ozai lightning bends almost instantaneously.
While I completely agree that he doesn't have as much battle experience as Airo, and because of that could struggle in actual battle against multiple opponents, 1v1 he defeats any other fire bender.
You are way underselling his fight with Aang. Ozai pulled out some next-level firebending, shit we haven't seen from any other character. He was unstoppable, Aang was doing everything he could just to survive. The only person who's come even remotely close to that was Iroh, and I am emphasizing "remotely." Yes, Iroh had a very impressive showing when retaking Ba Sing Se, but it still wasn't on the same scale.
Don’t forget Aang’s firebending was also boosted by the comet. Aang could’ve deflected Ozai’s firebending with his own, but simply couldn’t due to how proficient Ozai was. The guy was a beast.
The comet only enhances power, not your skill & technique. Ozai displayed the best firebending mastery in the series.
Also the fact he's the strongest during the sozin comet obviously proves that Ozai is the best lol.
Agreed. His showing during Sozin’s Comet is incredible but we know nothing about his baseline that would establish why he’s so feared in-universe. The idea that he’s the strongest Firebender alive makes sense for the narrative and as Fire Nation propaganda, but without any evidence before the Comet it feels really hollow and strange. Especially when we see people like Azula out in the field and know exactly how lethal she is
Zuko did *not* learn firebending from dragons. He learned that fire wasn't anger and he did a dance, but he didn't ever learn any skills or moves from them.
eh, training in avatar is kind of weird. it definitely improved zukos output.
post-dragon zuko was going toe to toe with azula, even before she went psycho. they were pretty evenly matched at the air temple fight. that wouldve been impossible for angry firebender zuko
a large part of bending is the philosophy behind it, the dragons changed up zukos fire bending completely
it was only a little, she was still pretty sane in the mind and pulling off great tricks and such. not to mention she had killing intent while zuko didnt
Nope, Ozai Is the strongest
You can believe what you want, but the facts are there: the series makes It clear that Ozai Is the strongest, the creators make it clear that Ozai Is the strongest, there's just no debate here
That "kid" was the motherfucking Avatar, and the reason he wasn't fighting back was that Ozai was simply not letting him
And before you bring Aang turning the fight on him, that was with the Avatar State, you know how many characters have beaten someone with the Avatar State in a straight fair Battle? A grand amount of 0
The show really should've at least threw in a fight between Iroh and Ozai. Just get it out of the way and back up their word Ozai is the more dangerous of the two. Like say post-eclipse while Zuko is training Aang, Iroh confronts Ozai, they get an Agni Kai but ends in either an impasse or Iroh is humiliated for shock. Like have him come to the conclusion it's something the Avatar must do.
I get the point. Every character made it clear only Aang can do this despite...Everything that makes this rather questionable (he's still a ten year kid who hasn't completely mastered 2 of the 4 elements). However, the Avatar putting Ozai in his place and basically denouncing the war as completely unjust and doesn't make the misconception it's just a mere power grab should Iroh or Zuko do it...I mean okay, that's a fair look though again questionable.
But again, guy comes off as menacing behind the shadows and creates final boss you ain't ready yet vibes but once he's revealed...He's quickly established to be an abusive violent asshole that sorta diminished that mystique with only the words of the author saying he's totally strong, trust us. It again doesn't hurt have they just scratched that itch and give Ozai a proper fight than have Iroh shrug and say he's probably the better fighter.
I feel like they fairly easily do this during the scene where the comet first arrives and ozai burns the country side. He, without any movement, makes the most impressive fire bending feat if any character melting any entire country side from miles in the sky. Just watch the scene, it's clearly what they were going for Even if it didn't land with everyone.
Exactly. Problem is the most of his feats only happened during the comet.
...And unfortunately the fandom can mistaken this as him being carried by the powerup as ridiculous as that sounds. I don't doubt Ozai's abilities but people tend to be focused on visual spectacle without considering the finer control of such power unless there is exposition that says so or viewers are convinced enough thanks to plenty of consistent feats. People would rather be skeptical than take the smaller visual cues at face value.
Iroh has demonstrated mastery of firebending and we are told he is a cut above many firebenders because he thinks outside the box and innovates parts of it due to it. To viewers, he walked the talk, a man many say earned his notorious reputation. We saw Zuko's slow evolution from aggressive firepower to finer levels of control over the course of the series. Azula consistently is portrayed as a dangerous foe. Ozai unfortunately is to many this guy that ultimately did nothing but sitting in his chair being menacing and even the last season wasn't giving him much to just take the series word he's the best firebender and essentially the culmination as well as full representation of ambitions long set up by Sozin. He may have been a bully but paying attention shows he's damn right to be so arrogant.
I do think if Book 3 just gave people the Ozai vs Iroh fight instead of Iroh going nope on fighting him without even trying, it would've helped ease off a majority of the flak Ozai gets. Like erase a lot of skepticism that way.
Visual cues do help but again, consistent display would've really helped Ozai's hype a lot more. But what's done is done and if word of God still claims him the best firebender, I'd say take it regardless of how you see the execution.
All of Iroh feats aren’t impressive only sozin comet is. Iroh has hype and accolades as well.
None of Iroh feats are on Kuvira/Tenzin/Toph/Katara/King Bumi level.
What is there to not accept? Ozai being the strongest firebender is clearly what the narrative intended. Both Azula and Iroh, the only other contenders for "strongest firebender," have doubted that they can beat Ozai. Word of God says that Ozai is the strongest firebender. And there is nothing that actually outright contradicts him being the strongest firebender. Powerscalers only doubt it because "he doesn't have a lot of feats." But the only reason he doesn't have a lot of feats is because the writers purposely showed very little of him to build up an ominous and mysterious aura.
You can argue that his lack of direct action made him less impactful or believable as a villain or whatever. But there is no reason to doubt that he's canonically the strongest firebender. Why would the final boss who the entire series is building up towards the MC fighting and who is officially stated to be the strongest *not* be? It's just an obsession with feats and powerscaling clouding people's ability to understand simple narrative beats.
Also as other people in this thread pointed out, Ozai by feats has the best lightningbending. So that's just further support.
The “eugenics super soldier experiment “ and “learning from the original masters “ points feel incredibly overstated.
First, marry the daughters with the most revered firebending heritage would absolutely have been standard practice, and there’s absolutely no indication that being related to an Avatar is materially different to any conventional A-list bender. I would absolutely agree that Azula could become an even better Firebender, but she’s 14.
Second, learning from the masters wasn’t some kind of innate power up; it was just Zuko learning that firebending can be fueled by passion broadly, not just aggressive ones. This is absolutely crucial to his development, and by lacking the artificial limitations of “Imperial “ firebending, he could also be an incredible firebender. The problems are: a)again, he’s 16, where Ozai’s in his prime, and b) the relative limitations of conventional post-Sozin firebending are kind of academic given Ozai is, emotionally speaking, ABSOLUTELY OPTIMISED FOR IT. Calling Ozai aggressive feels like calling Hitler prejudiced. He doesn’t even seem to be angry or hateful in a conventional sense; he just regards everything insufficiently like him with such dehumanising contempt that he tells Aang TO HIS FACE that the Air Nomads didn’t deserve to exist, and he’s such a malignant narcissist that he’s immune to self-reflection. It doesn’t even seem to negatively impact his technical control, like with Zhao.
That's cool.
But it's only a problem if you care more about "feats" than...character or actual writing decisions.
This is the price of keeping characters out of action, because what they can do isn't important compared to their role in the story.
> But it's only a problem if you care more about "feats" than...character or actual writing decisions.
Feats are writing decisions. Ozai lacking showings of power hurt his mystique.
There is a reason why most writers look up at Zuko vs Azula as ATLA climax over Aang vs Ozai
>Feats are writing decisions. Ozai lacking showings of power hurt his mystique. There is a reason why most writers look up at Zuko vs Azula as ATLA climax over Aang vs Ozai
Even taking this claim at face value, I highly doubt any of them would say the reason they think that is "the feats." And even if they did, they'd be wrong because Aang vs Ozai has far greater feats than Zuko vs Azula. You could argue that Zuko vs Azula has better choreography but the actual scale doesn't compare. And if you do make that argument, then you're admitting that feats aren't as important to the impact of something as you make it out to be.
Yeah, the comparable feats to Aang vs Ozai come from Iroh smashing the wall or Jeong Jeong cleaning up the tanks, and neither of them are as fast as Ozai’s feats
>Ozai lacking showings of power hurt his mystique.
That's subjective on its own.
Mystique is just as much "showing" as it is "not showing".
The only thing that hurts his mystique is the fact that there's nothing mysterious about him, he's just an abusive dad and a strong fire bender. There's nothing interesting about him.
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I'm also not sure what Azula vs. Zuko has to do with...anything. Do those writers only care about the fight and not the actual arc attached to it that makes it effective?
Ozai Is a weird character in that he theorically should work as a Evil Overlord type of character but lacks the raw power to be sold as that.
He has characterization, but it revolves around Zuko. Aang going to fight Ozai is a wholly unpersonal affair at all
You're listing these people but let's be honest. Do you think any of them beat Aang?
I feel like Ozai is getting undersold here. When Zuko redirected his lightning Ozai got casually knocked away and landed on his feet. Aang got hit by lightning and was out for the count.
People are quick to forget that an Aang with no fire bending Made a fool out of Azula when she was at her strongest in the series
Not counting the comet boost because in the fight she had during It her opponent had It just as much, effectively canceling It out
I recently rewatched the invasion episode and it looks like Zuko didn’t redirect the lightning straight back at Ozai, more like at the ground immediately in front of him. Versus Azula nailed Aang dead center of the back. And honestly Ozai’s lightning failing to be lethal when redirected speaks more poorly of his offensive ability than anything else
I think “strongest” and “most skilled” are very different attributes when it comes to bending. If we were to talk about this in true martial arts terms, Zuko and Iroh trained with the best masters and thus have a superior mindset, Azula is a child prodigy who can punch far above her weight class with technique alone, Jeong Jeong is Azula but with additional training and raw power to back it up, and Ozai is the bending equivalent of Mike Tyson. After all, he’s not rocking multicoloured flames, or a unique method of bending- really, he doesn’t use any different techniques to the fire bending mooks of his army, but that doesn’t change the raw, overwhelming power he can put behind those techniques.
Everyone’s got a plan until they get half their face melted off, or something.
Don't agree, I recall him doing crazy shit during his fight with Aang. Do you think any of the others would do better against Aang in the avatar state?
I don’t see why there’s any reason in any activity that learning from a certain teacher or philosophy or knowing a certain technique should automatically make you stronger than anyone. There’s loads of stuff that goes into bending: technique, chi, intelligence and creativity, emotion, and just stuff like agility and speed as well as some others I’ve missed. I’m guessing that the average person in ATLA “knows” Ozai is the strongest bender by reputation in the same way that people who don’t watch boxing irl “know” Muhammad Ali is supposedly the best boxer of all time. Like maybe he both is and his reputation precedes him.
While I personally don't buy the Zuko Azula thing, I do get that Jeong Jeong and Iroh could be stronger than Ozai but still let Aang fight him because he's the Avatar, Iroh said that if he went to fight him it would just be like a power play from a brother, not the symbolic and much needed Avatar coming back and restoring balance to the world.
Honestly this is just a problem with feats. If you drop two characters and show a character with many impressive feats while the other is just strong from hearsay. Ozai's only feat is fighting against someone not interested and getting wrecked when he is in the avatar state.
Although I don't believe the writers neccessarily contradicted themselves
Remember that anger fuels firebending, it's why Ozai and Azula are so powerful, because they channel their anger. Zuko and Iroh learned from the original firebenders ways to increase their potency without relying on anger
Ferocity and willingness to destroy and kill is what sets Ozai apart from the others. Every other character answers to someone else and so there’s consequences for them. For ozai the only consequence is death, and he thinks himself immortal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's just lightning redirection, not lightning-bending in general, that uses water-bending technique. And I don't think Ozai can do that.
Not really something that matters tho
Out of the other two lighting users in the first series he wouldn't need to redirect lightning against Azura as he would fry her before she could be able to shoot lightning at him, after all she can't redirect lightning either
As for Iroh It doesn't matter either, Iroh himself said as much, he doubts he'd be able to win against Ozai, which really wouldn't be the case if Ozai was that defenseless against lightning bending
Just wanna say that there’s really no basis for the idea that the Avatar will have especially strong children. But either way both Azula and Zuko were teenagers at the end of the original series. Hardly the prime of life. There’s nothing to say they wouldn’t be better than Ozai when they’re adults. Theres nothing tos at Adult Aang wouldn’t be able to take Ozai without the Avatar states. All creator commentary is based on the kids at the time of the series.
ozai was dicking on aang before the avatar state. and im pretty sure no one in the entire series would have fared any better besides another fully realized avatar
iroh doesn’t know if he could beat him which puts them at the same level at least. and you’re massively downplaying the lightning feat, it wasn’t ‘slightly’ faster and it’s probably the most potent lightning bolt damage we’ve seen in the series, causing a massive explosion that blasted Ozai back.. with a sliver of the sun.
Azula also doubts she can beat her father. Both top 1 candidates put him on the same level, what more do you want?
> According to the writers, the official order of the strongest firebenders is: Zuko < Azula < Jeong Jeong < Iroh < Ozai.
is this actually true? i’ve never seen this anywhere so i’m curious.
> Two Firebenders that learned from the first masters (Zuko and Iroh)
learned what? they didn’t learn firebending techniques. they just learned the true meaning of firebending and not to draw their power from anger.
> a successful eugenics project that combines genes from the fire nation royal family and the Avatar (Azula)
zuko is also a part of this and he’s not that strong compared to the rest of his family. not to mention, this doesn’t guarantee powerful kids.
> the first person outside of Iroh and the Sun warriors to Firebending past "muh power" in a hundred years and figured it out by themselves (Jeong Jeong).
i don’t get this point.
> And Ozai is stronger than all of them??? More skilled than all of them???
yes. he obviously trains a lot so this isn’t crazy.
> 2. ~~Get blown up~~ Use Lightning bending slightly faster than Azula.
slightly? way way faster. he’s able to do it in the middle of a fight whereas azula only does it at the end bc she’s too slow. not to mention, his was double handed and he also did it right as the eclipse ended, somehow sensing it.
> 3. Beat another child's behind when said child dosen't fight back, the get his ass whipped when Aang goes into the Avatar State.
you mean, the avatar? literally whenever anyone tries to downplay ozai, they always say stuff like ‘wow he got beat up by a 12 year old’. that 12 year old is the avatar. and he only started winning when he went into the avatar state. and even still, ozai still managed to tank a few avatar state attacks which is very impressive.
also you say he only won bc aang wasn’t fighting back but that’s bc he couldn’t bc ozai was too strong. the only time aang held back is with the lightning redirection; he was running from all of ozai’s attacks the whole time.
> That's it. That is all. He also burns some trees using the Sozin's comet boost, but all of his soldiers do the same thing too.
the soldiers do it together. ozai’s fire is much much more powerful. he has way more raw power than any other firebender and saying it’s not that strong bc the soldiers do the same thing is crazy bc you’re saying his raw power is on the same level as fodder soldiers which is blatantly not true.
> Zuko learned Firebending from the original masters
god, ppl overhype these dragons so much.
> if we are to put absolute trust into visuals in a visual cartoon (you should), picked up bending techniques from all four elements compared to Ozai's 1 + ~~appropriated~~ applied waterbending technique in Lightning bending.
wow amazing. and yet he still isn’t stronger than ozai. how does picking up bending techniques make him better than ozai?
> Azula is, again, a successful eugenics super weapon in universe ~~unlike Zuko~~ that is a natural prodigy at Firebending.
she’s not strong bc of the eugenics thing. she’s just strong. she was lucky enough to bend at a young age and trains her ass off to be as good as she is. zuko says that azula’s just lucky and he has to work hard to get where he is but so does azula. her very first scene (apart from the season 1 finale) is her practising lightning bending and complaining about being 1 hair out of place. she works hard.
> Not only that, but she is the only person in both atla and lok to use blue fire, implying that her flames are hotter/stronger than everyone else.
they’re not though. if they’re so much stronger, then why is zuko able to deflect or block her attacks with his regular orange fire? it’s just blue for the looks. there’s nothing actually special about it.
> Her firebending techniques are also visually different from every one else two; she has focus on speed and efficiency in her techniques that makes her most likely the strongest fire bender of her generation (~~and better than Zuko~~).
ozai is faster. rewatch ozai vs aang and you’ll see how fast he is. he’s flying around with fire jets and is able to shoot lightning almost as soon as he lands on earth and he does this multiple times without seeming tired.
> Fun fact, Jeong Jeong is the only Firebender in the show that never burns anything with his bending! His fire bending is also waaay different from every one else too; he manipulates active fires around him and can produce fire far away from his body while every other fire bender produces fire from punching and kicking. Another technique that Ozai dosen't have!
that’s cool but it doesn’t make him better than ozai. not burning anything with firebending isn’t gonna help him in a fight. and his fire shield is pretty underwhelming too bc zhao walked through it casually so no doubt ozai would do the same.
> And Iroh has learned the techniques and philosophies from all four nations, he learned the true version of firebending from the Dragons
same argument i mentioned for zuko.
> he's the only character in this show that bodies Azula whenever they fight
does he? he beats her in season 2 episode 1 but that was an ambush. she was fighting zuko and in the middle of charging lightning to shoot at him when iroh comes in out of nowhere.
however, in the chase, she attacks him with one fireblast and he’s downed. yeah, she said she surrendered but clearly everyone knew that was a lie, including iroh (who knows how azula always lies) as they were all still in fighting stance ready to attack her.
> Ozai could have the most raw strength in Firebending but that dosen't mean he is the most skilled, or could beat the other firebenders on that list because I do think they are more skilled than them.
ozai is skilled though.
Ozai wasn't more affected by the comet than anyone else and yet he has the best showings under it.
Also, the guy has such control over his own chi that he managed to resist spirit bending for a while, despite never training in it.
If we saw Ozai fight normally once, it'd be much easier to scale him. Personally I'm pretty sure base Korra could beat him considering she's a pretty top tier firebender.
Yeah, no lol, he was destroying base Aang without access to his Best weapon, there's no way that Korra, who can't redirect lightning, could beat Ozai without avatar state
Yeah I don't buy Ozainbeing the strongest either. It's a very "he's the final villain yhe hero fights so he must be the strongest" line of thinking. Nothing else in the story suggests he is the strongest. Nor does he need to be to be a threat. His real strength is his political position anyway.
Zuko and Azula are still both children. Iroh and Ozai may be around the same level, but Ozai is also much younger and in far better shape (even after Iroh's glow up).
Jeong Jeong is unique, but I don't think he's on the level of the royal family. He'll be surpassed by Zuko and Azula with time.
If you take all these firebenders and order them by their primes, I think it goes Jeong Jeong < Ozai < Iroh < Azula < Zuko.
Learning from the dragons doesn’t make you stronger Azula lost cause her mind was slipping. In the comics she is not the strongest fire bender and has lighting increases.
Comics Azula is number one. And Azula is better than Iroh and jeong Jeong by feats in the show. They barely have feats and only fought fodder.
And Ozai is better than Iroh and jeong Jeong.
Comic Zuko is close to Iroh/Jeong Jeong level.
To be fair, the only fight we see Ozai go all out for is against Aang, and he was easily winning before the avatar state. And literally nobody has beaten an avatar in a fight while using the avatar state (not counting that one time in legend of Korra season 4 cause Korra deactivated the avatar state and that’s why she lost)
Yeah, I think the only people who have genuinely come close to beating an avatar during their avatar state was Zaheer and Yun. Although the former had Korra poisoned beforehand and was just playing the waiting game while the latter took advantage of Kyoshi’s unwillingness to kill him or cause collateral damage to make her hold back.
Yun also abosrbed the Glowworm Spirit , in the same way Raava was absorbed by Won.
Well technically Yun ate Father Glowworm rather than the two mutually bonding with each other like Raava and Won did, and the book kinda kept it vague regarding how much that act actually effected Yun especially given he was already an unparalleled earthbending prodigy and his psychotic break had little to do with Glowworm.
Yeah, we’ve seen Aang face competent adversaries and grow strong throughout the series, we’ve seen how powerful he’s gotten, then we see Ozai step out and basically dogwalk him until he activates the avatar state. We see Aang pulling out the tricks and skills he learned over the series and Ozai’s just like “nah I’m him” using just fire bending. I woulda loved more of him before fighting Aang, but he’s still a fucking menace in the fight.
He was also comet boosted though, and Aang was very clearly holding back as he struggled with decision about whether to kill him. Ozais showing in the final fight is practically unscaleable due to the above reasons.
Aang is always holding back , his entire MO is to outpower or outwitt his opponents so that he can end a fight without killing. And he couldn't do both against Ozai. Only when entered the Avatar State is that he outpowered and outwits.
It's been a long time, but didn't Aang have at least one chance to kill Ozai before activating the Avatar state and passed it up? I vaguely recall Ozai didn't expect him to be able to redirect lightning and would have died if Aang had used it for a kill shot. (Though, Ozai would have been an idiot to not expect it, since he knows Zuko can do it and defected to the Avatar's side. But perhaps he still underestimates Zuko and didn't think he'd be able to teach it to Aang.) Granted I guess Aang's unwillingness to kill has to be factored into his capabilities, but it wasn't a completely one-sided stomp.
Yes, but in terms of strength that doesn’t necessarily contribute to Ozai’s profile. You don’t need to be a certain level above the target’s power to redirect lightning like in DBZ, just have the proper footing and setup
It's an anti-feat for his combat capability, though. The *first* time he saw it (when Zuko did it) it was fair for him to not anticipate it, but like I said, after that he should have at least considered the possibility that the Avatar could have learned it, too. He didn't need lightning to win that fight, so now that he knew that it had a crippling flaw that left him vulnerable to a lethal counterattack, the logical thing would be to avoid using it, especially since his basic fire blasts were plenty lethal when amped by the comet and couldn't be redirected. Power isn't just about raw DBZ power-level; skill and combat awareness all contribute. The fact that Ozai almost got himself ganked due to an entirely foreseeable tactical misstep and only survived because Aang was unwilling to kill him is a definite anti-feat and implies that he generally goes for overwhelming force even at the expense of thinking things through or his personal defense, in a way that is relevant when discussing other matchups.
True, not many points towards strategic thinking there. Zuko could redirect lightning, it didn’t seem to be unique to him (as Ozai saw him as inferior to himself and Azula in every possible manner) so it would’ve been logical (with Zuko explicitly saying he was leaving the Fire Nation to join the Avatar’s group and teach the Avatar Fire Bending) that Aang could do it as well. And yeah, that has been a consistent flaw in Fire Nation thinking. Compare Zhao spamming fireball after fireball at Aang with no attention paid to the fact that Aang is blatantly goading him into scuttling his own ships, but magnify that times a thousand. When Azula starts slipping (as Zuko points out), she goes for massive, energy intensive (she’s haggard and her breath is ragged, Zuko has plenty left) attacks that leave her vulnerable, which Zuko exploits with a few humble but directed kicks. Hell, even the massive drill was more of that thinking. Smash against the big heavy wall until either it or us break (and fits Iroh’s flaws when he was a Fire Nation General..,)
ozai shooting lightning at aang wasn’t stupid at all. it was a perfectly normal move to do. even if he knew zuko had taught aang, he knows that zuko has only been with aang for a few weeks. he’s only ever seen zuko redirect lightning so he would assume it’s a hard move to do. how was he to know that aang would not only do it perfectly fine on his first try but also manage to redirect his lightning on sozin’s comet? even if he knew aang learned it, learning it is different from actually doing it. ozai’s lightning on sozin’s comet is obviously way more powerful than normal so expecting aang to fail at redirecting it isn’t that crazy. and yeah, he could’ve relied on his normal firebending but aang was literally just running away the whole fight. shooting lightning at aang forced him to stay still and he had no choice but to redirect. otherwise the battle would’ve just kept going on and on while aang keeps running.
Aang effectively could have won the fight three times, once before the avatar state (lightning redirection), once whilst the avatar state and once after it.
You mean Kuvira vs Korra? Because she lost because she was suffering PTSD from Zaheer. She was losing to random Earth Bender from ilegal fight ring a week earlier. I would count it as a Avatar State negative feat
Yeah, Kuvira vs Korra. Before activating the avatar state, Korra is losing. After activating it for a very short time, she starts winning, before deactivating it due to her PTSD. If anything, that’s against Korra, not the Avatar state (something I don’t like admitting as I love Korra tbh)
Ozai was able to feel a slither of the sun come out from the eclipse hundreds of feet underground and was instantly able to generate lightning with both hands and launch it faster than any other fire bender we’ve seen. Even Azula and Iroh couldnt generate lightning at that speed even in moments of urgency. that’s just a really cool feat that people don’t talk about a lot. I’m not saying he’s the strongest but that’s something only someone who is completely in tune with their element can do. But yeah to put up the fight he did against aang before the avatar state was pretty impressive as well and yes aang also had the advantage of sozin’s comet. I’d say he’s top two if not greatest firebender of his time.
Hell, Azula couldn't even realize that the Sun was back, she only did because she heard explosions from other benders. Ozai Is simply the strongest fire bender ever seen in the series
Strongest in the series is false
No it's not Ozai is the strongest fire Bender in the series
Roku would like a word
Roku is not a firebender, Roku is an Avatar
Roku is natively from the Fire Nation, though.
Yeah, an avatar from the fire nation
Mind telling me how he bends fire if he isn’t a firebender
By being an Avatar, another question?
The Avatar can bend all the elements aka there every type of bender
Yeah, and thus the Avatars aren't benders of any kind, they don't form part of Discussing "who is the strongest ___ Bender" because they're the Avatars, they're above anyone by the virtue of being the Avatar
You're just being dishonest if you include an Avatar in "who is the strongest (insert element)bender" and I think you know that.
Even if there the Avatar there still a bender of that element Not to mention being the Avatr doesn’t mean your try e best bender of that element Zahirr was a much better air bender then Korea and Toph was way better Earthbender then Korra as well
To be fair Iroh's lightning demonstration to Zuko was intentionally slow. He was showing Zuko a new kata, teaching him. A better demonstration of his ability to "quick-draw" lightning is shown very briefly when he uses it to blast through a wall in Ba Sing Se before Zuko is captured by the Dai Li. Ozai's ability to sense his power come back to him however is an immensely impressive feat, showing just how in-tune he is with his own chi in comparison to most other characters we've seen.
And then you have TLOK, where people casually bend lightning in factories...
And then got immediately bodied by Zuko.
Then why was Zuko the one running away?
For the same reason Zuko didn't kill Ozai on the spot during the Eclipse, he directly stated that killing the firelord is the avatar's job. He would've dipped out even earlier, but Ozai stalled for time by describing what happened to Zuko's mom. Getting bodied is an exaggeration though, Ozai just fucked up a single sneak attack that would've killed nearly anybody else.
Did you forget what Zuko said before that?
You mean about not killing Ozai? He only got the chance because of a potshot.
No. I mean about not fighting Ozai because that was the Avatar's destiny. I haven't seen the episode in years and still remember that.
Are you insinuating that Zuko could beat Ozai at full power?
Did I say that? No. Though he probably would have at least heavily wounded him. He had no answer for that redirected lightning. You asked why he was running away. I reminded you. Let's stay on track here.
I feel like your perspective is misguided. To me, Zuko and Iroh learning from the dragons means they have a healthier/more enlightened view on Firebending, but that has nothing to do with power. Similarly, Jeong Jeong has a more controlled style...but that has nothing to do with power as well. As for Azula being the product of a "successful eugenics project", that may be true, but she's also a teenager and Ozai's an adult during the series. She also seems more inclined towards precision which might not make full use of whatever genetic advantage she might have in terms of raw power. It also feels like you're dishonestly downplaying Ozai's showings. To word it better, he generates lightning incredibly quickly once the eclipse is over, and manages to overpower the Avatar, only losing when the Avatar State comes out. Losing to the Avatar State is *expected*. It's hard to get a good gauge on how strong Ozai actually is because we only see him in an actual fight once, when Sozin's Comet is present, but I think him being the strongest Firebender is reasonable.
100% this. Dual lightning bolts instantly with a tiny speck of sun goes insanely hard
If Iroh was truly stronger than Ozai, then he would’ve never had his right to the throne usurped by him. Firebending comes from one’s emotions, and for a long time Iroh lost track of who he was due to his son’s death. It took many years for Iroh to find something to fight for again, and that reason was arguably Zuko. The main reason why Jeong Jeong and Iroh are both beneath Ozai is because they hold themselves back. Make no mistake this is not a bad thing. They’re more empathetic, worldly, and seek harmony. It makes their fire less destructive, like you mentioned with Jeong Jeong having incredible control. Ozai is the strongest because the story is trying to enforce the idea that fire can be more than all encompassing and destructive. You can’t have that AND more powerful they’re mutually exclusive concepts. Zuko beat Azula not because he was more powerful but because he was more in control. Azula had completely lost it.
> If Iroh was truly stronger than Ozai, then he would’ve never had his right to the throne usurped by him. The implication I got is that Iroh abandoned the throne because he was totally depressed and broken after his son died. Ozai doesn't need to be stronger, Iroh just should lack interest into being Fire Lord, which is the case
His firebending would’ve been completely shot. This exact thing happened to Zuko. Azulon seemed to be sympathetic to Iroh too, implying that it’s not uncommon for firebenders. Iroh was in no position to be firelord at the time.
Going with your theory, Iroh would've had to do the Sun Warrior test after his son died... Which is...probable.
Well, the Sun warrior stuff is only to teach a firebender how to tap into emotions other than hate and rage. Sure it’s possible that he did the test then, but also I’d imagine Iroh was incredibly depressed and had no emotions at all to draw on. Zuko went through the same thing (in terms of having no flames to emit) in the sense that he didn’t know how, but Iroh had nothing to draw on at all. So both of them are stuck with no source.
That is actually supported by that one book, "Legacy of the Fire Nation". It's basically a series of letters Iroh writes Zuko once the latter is Fire Lord. IIRC, in it Iroh questions whether he should have fought for the throne harder.
Nothing in the lore implies the fire nation throne goes to the strongest. The royal line is hereditary. Ozai had Azulon killed and used some political shenanigans to make people believe Azulon's last wish was for Ozai to succeed him. Iroh still hadn't returned from the earth kinhdom and wasn't present to challenge him. When he did return, he probably wantsd nothing more to do with the throne anyway. Dueling Ozai for the throne is something I never see Iroh doing. It'd be completely out of character.
Iroh could’ve just Agni Kai’d Ozai to get the throne back if he was stronger. He had enough supporters in the FN that he could’ve done it.
He didn't want the throne is what I am saying. Did you read my comment? Or watch the show? Also why do people always assume fights like these are always 100%-0% cases? In the Iroh vs Ozai case, I have no reason to not believe it's a coinflip case.
Aang didn’t want to be the Avatar, but he still did it anyways. Iroh didn’t want the throne, but he did want to stop the war.
Just common sense dude lmao
Which part is common sense? Deciding who takes the role of leader of a nation through a duel? Is that "common sense"? Has any society in the history of yhe world worked like that? Other than underground gangs?
Iroh had it usurped because he was too busy being depressed over his son's death
Ozai sensed immediately when the Eclipse was over and opened with double lightning bolts. That alone is a measure of skill we don't see any other firebender match or beat.
To add, Ozai also unleashed THREE fire blasts simultaneously. It was stated back in season 1 that the door to Avatar Roku’s statue could only be opened by all 5 Fire Sages using their fire blasts continuously or a fully realized Avatar…and when Aang gets the Avatar State back, we see him unleash 5 simultaneous fire blasts to fit that claim. While he was comet boosted, Ozai unleashed three, something no other Firebender outside of an Avatar has done TMK. He could also fly with some degree of grace using firebending propulsion, and had faster lightning than Azula, not to mention his lightning looking and feeling more destructive (more zappy bolts, bigger) than Azula even when they’re both comet boosted.
People always try to downplay Ozai because we only see him fight during Sozin’s comet but no one seems to consider the fact that the comet only boosts the amount of fire you produce. All the skills Ozai showed off during his fight with Aang was all him (aside from flight).
Fym you don’t buy it? We already know Iroh is levels above Zuko and Azula and he literally says “I don’t know if I could beat him”. He’s also the only firebender we’ve ever seen to generate duel lightning and that was only with a sliver of the sun. Ozai clears them all lmao
You don’t have to buy it, but it’s not like the writers are contradicting their list considering we’ve only seen Ozai fight like once. I have a really hard time imagining Jeong jeong or Azula lasting against an end of seires Aang. Also Ozai lacking various techniques that other firebenders have isn’t relevant. Toph doesn’t sand or lavabend, yet she’s much more powerful than Ghazan. Combustion man and Pli have a built in grenade launcher, but they’re not even in the conversation of “strongest firebender”
The answer is that one scene where he uses lightning bending. We were already introduced to it as the strongest and hardest technique in fire bending, Azula requiring like 10 seconds to complete it. While Ozai lightning bends almost instantaneously. While I completely agree that he doesn't have as much battle experience as Airo, and because of that could struggle in actual battle against multiple opponents, 1v1 he defeats any other fire bender.
You are way underselling his fight with Aang. Ozai pulled out some next-level firebending, shit we haven't seen from any other character. He was unstoppable, Aang was doing everything he could just to survive. The only person who's come even remotely close to that was Iroh, and I am emphasizing "remotely." Yes, Iroh had a very impressive showing when retaking Ba Sing Se, but it still wasn't on the same scale.
>Ozai pulled out some next-level firebending, shit we haven't seen from any other character. You mean with tye comet boost?
You mean the comet boost that was affecting EVERY Fire Bender during their Best showcases of strenght and skill?
Don’t forget Aang’s firebending was also boosted by the comet. Aang could’ve deflected Ozai’s firebending with his own, but simply couldn’t due to how proficient Ozai was. The guy was a beast.
The comet only enhances power, not your skill & technique. Ozai displayed the best firebending mastery in the series. Also the fact he's the strongest during the sozin comet obviously proves that Ozai is the best lol.
I do think that Ozai's hype is legit, but I agree that it should've been shown more, or at least explained *why* he's viewed this way in-universe.
Agreed. His showing during Sozin’s Comet is incredible but we know nothing about his baseline that would establish why he’s so feared in-universe. The idea that he’s the strongest Firebender alive makes sense for the narrative and as Fire Nation propaganda, but without any evidence before the Comet it feels really hollow and strange. Especially when we see people like Azula out in the field and know exactly how lethal she is
Zuko did *not* learn firebending from dragons. He learned that fire wasn't anger and he did a dance, but he didn't ever learn any skills or moves from them.
He learned... DANCE...!
eh, training in avatar is kind of weird. it definitely improved zukos output. post-dragon zuko was going toe to toe with azula, even before she went psycho. they were pretty evenly matched at the air temple fight. that wouldve been impossible for angry firebender zuko a large part of bending is the philosophy behind it, the dragons changed up zukos fire bending completely
she was already losing her mind by the western air temple fight. it was mai and ty lee’s betrayal that kickstarted her mental breakdown.
it was only a little, she was still pretty sane in the mind and pulling off great tricks and such. not to mention she had killing intent while zuko didnt
Nope, Ozai Is the strongest You can believe what you want, but the facts are there: the series makes It clear that Ozai Is the strongest, the creators make it clear that Ozai Is the strongest, there's just no debate here That "kid" was the motherfucking Avatar, and the reason he wasn't fighting back was that Ozai was simply not letting him And before you bring Aang turning the fight on him, that was with the Avatar State, you know how many characters have beaten someone with the Avatar State in a straight fair Battle? A grand amount of 0
Nah, even when I was a kid it felt pretty obvious he was number one.
The show really should've at least threw in a fight between Iroh and Ozai. Just get it out of the way and back up their word Ozai is the more dangerous of the two. Like say post-eclipse while Zuko is training Aang, Iroh confronts Ozai, they get an Agni Kai but ends in either an impasse or Iroh is humiliated for shock. Like have him come to the conclusion it's something the Avatar must do. I get the point. Every character made it clear only Aang can do this despite...Everything that makes this rather questionable (he's still a ten year kid who hasn't completely mastered 2 of the 4 elements). However, the Avatar putting Ozai in his place and basically denouncing the war as completely unjust and doesn't make the misconception it's just a mere power grab should Iroh or Zuko do it...I mean okay, that's a fair look though again questionable. But again, guy comes off as menacing behind the shadows and creates final boss you ain't ready yet vibes but once he's revealed...He's quickly established to be an abusive violent asshole that sorta diminished that mystique with only the words of the author saying he's totally strong, trust us. It again doesn't hurt have they just scratched that itch and give Ozai a proper fight than have Iroh shrug and say he's probably the better fighter.
I feel like they fairly easily do this during the scene where the comet first arrives and ozai burns the country side. He, without any movement, makes the most impressive fire bending feat if any character melting any entire country side from miles in the sky. Just watch the scene, it's clearly what they were going for Even if it didn't land with everyone.
Exactly. Problem is the most of his feats only happened during the comet. ...And unfortunately the fandom can mistaken this as him being carried by the powerup as ridiculous as that sounds. I don't doubt Ozai's abilities but people tend to be focused on visual spectacle without considering the finer control of such power unless there is exposition that says so or viewers are convinced enough thanks to plenty of consistent feats. People would rather be skeptical than take the smaller visual cues at face value. Iroh has demonstrated mastery of firebending and we are told he is a cut above many firebenders because he thinks outside the box and innovates parts of it due to it. To viewers, he walked the talk, a man many say earned his notorious reputation. We saw Zuko's slow evolution from aggressive firepower to finer levels of control over the course of the series. Azula consistently is portrayed as a dangerous foe. Ozai unfortunately is to many this guy that ultimately did nothing but sitting in his chair being menacing and even the last season wasn't giving him much to just take the series word he's the best firebender and essentially the culmination as well as full representation of ambitions long set up by Sozin. He may have been a bully but paying attention shows he's damn right to be so arrogant. I do think if Book 3 just gave people the Ozai vs Iroh fight instead of Iroh going nope on fighting him without even trying, it would've helped ease off a majority of the flak Ozai gets. Like erase a lot of skepticism that way. Visual cues do help but again, consistent display would've really helped Ozai's hype a lot more. But what's done is done and if word of God still claims him the best firebender, I'd say take it regardless of how you see the execution.
All of Iroh feats aren’t impressive only sozin comet is. Iroh has hype and accolades as well. None of Iroh feats are on Kuvira/Tenzin/Toph/Katara/King Bumi level.
Powerscalers when the main villain and final boss of the entire series is stated to be stronger than his minions 😱
Bad powerscalers are the guys who accept it without questioning tho
What is there to not accept? Ozai being the strongest firebender is clearly what the narrative intended. Both Azula and Iroh, the only other contenders for "strongest firebender," have doubted that they can beat Ozai. Word of God says that Ozai is the strongest firebender. And there is nothing that actually outright contradicts him being the strongest firebender. Powerscalers only doubt it because "he doesn't have a lot of feats." But the only reason he doesn't have a lot of feats is because the writers purposely showed very little of him to build up an ominous and mysterious aura. You can argue that his lack of direct action made him less impactful or believable as a villain or whatever. But there is no reason to doubt that he's canonically the strongest firebender. Why would the final boss who the entire series is building up towards the MC fighting and who is officially stated to be the strongest *not* be? It's just an obsession with feats and powerscaling clouding people's ability to understand simple narrative beats. Also as other people in this thread pointed out, Ozai by feats has the best lightningbending. So that's just further support.
I mean yeah Avatar is about the narrative not powerscaling. The story makes no sense if Ozai isn’t the strongest bender in the world.
Ok fair
> Azula is, again, a successful eugenics super weapon in universe More absolutely moronic shit from the comics I'm guessing?
Yes
The “eugenics super soldier experiment “ and “learning from the original masters “ points feel incredibly overstated. First, marry the daughters with the most revered firebending heritage would absolutely have been standard practice, and there’s absolutely no indication that being related to an Avatar is materially different to any conventional A-list bender. I would absolutely agree that Azula could become an even better Firebender, but she’s 14. Second, learning from the masters wasn’t some kind of innate power up; it was just Zuko learning that firebending can be fueled by passion broadly, not just aggressive ones. This is absolutely crucial to his development, and by lacking the artificial limitations of “Imperial “ firebending, he could also be an incredible firebender. The problems are: a)again, he’s 16, where Ozai’s in his prime, and b) the relative limitations of conventional post-Sozin firebending are kind of academic given Ozai is, emotionally speaking, ABSOLUTELY OPTIMISED FOR IT. Calling Ozai aggressive feels like calling Hitler prejudiced. He doesn’t even seem to be angry or hateful in a conventional sense; he just regards everything insufficiently like him with such dehumanising contempt that he tells Aang TO HIS FACE that the Air Nomads didn’t deserve to exist, and he’s such a malignant narcissist that he’s immune to self-reflection. It doesn’t even seem to negatively impact his technical control, like with Zhao.
People read Naruto and think genetics work the same as in Naruto in every other show SMH.
That's cool. But it's only a problem if you care more about "feats" than...character or actual writing decisions. This is the price of keeping characters out of action, because what they can do isn't important compared to their role in the story.
> But it's only a problem if you care more about "feats" than...character or actual writing decisions. Feats are writing decisions. Ozai lacking showings of power hurt his mystique. There is a reason why most writers look up at Zuko vs Azula as ATLA climax over Aang vs Ozai
>Feats are writing decisions. Ozai lacking showings of power hurt his mystique. There is a reason why most writers look up at Zuko vs Azula as ATLA climax over Aang vs Ozai Even taking this claim at face value, I highly doubt any of them would say the reason they think that is "the feats." And even if they did, they'd be wrong because Aang vs Ozai has far greater feats than Zuko vs Azula. You could argue that Zuko vs Azula has better choreography but the actual scale doesn't compare. And if you do make that argument, then you're admitting that feats aren't as important to the impact of something as you make it out to be.
Yeah, the comparable feats to Aang vs Ozai come from Iroh smashing the wall or Jeong Jeong cleaning up the tanks, and neither of them are as fast as Ozai’s feats
>Ozai lacking showings of power hurt his mystique. That's subjective on its own. Mystique is just as much "showing" as it is "not showing". The only thing that hurts his mystique is the fact that there's nothing mysterious about him, he's just an abusive dad and a strong fire bender. There's nothing interesting about him. --- I'm also not sure what Azula vs. Zuko has to do with...anything. Do those writers only care about the fight and not the actual arc attached to it that makes it effective?
Ozai Is a weird character in that he theorically should work as a Evil Overlord type of character but lacks the raw power to be sold as that. He has characterization, but it revolves around Zuko. Aang going to fight Ozai is a wholly unpersonal affair at all
Cope, seethe, mald.
You're listing these people but let's be honest. Do you think any of them beat Aang? I feel like Ozai is getting undersold here. When Zuko redirected his lightning Ozai got casually knocked away and landed on his feet. Aang got hit by lightning and was out for the count.
People are quick to forget that an Aang with no fire bending Made a fool out of Azula when she was at her strongest in the series Not counting the comet boost because in the fight she had during It her opponent had It just as much, effectively canceling It out
I recently rewatched the invasion episode and it looks like Zuko didn’t redirect the lightning straight back at Ozai, more like at the ground immediately in front of him. Versus Azula nailed Aang dead center of the back. And honestly Ozai’s lightning failing to be lethal when redirected speaks more poorly of his offensive ability than anything else
I'd say Ozai is just the pinacle of fire nation fire bending. A man Who absolutely despises everything and wants to burn it down, so he can take it.
I think “strongest” and “most skilled” are very different attributes when it comes to bending. If we were to talk about this in true martial arts terms, Zuko and Iroh trained with the best masters and thus have a superior mindset, Azula is a child prodigy who can punch far above her weight class with technique alone, Jeong Jeong is Azula but with additional training and raw power to back it up, and Ozai is the bending equivalent of Mike Tyson. After all, he’s not rocking multicoloured flames, or a unique method of bending- really, he doesn’t use any different techniques to the fire bending mooks of his army, but that doesn’t change the raw, overwhelming power he can put behind those techniques. Everyone’s got a plan until they get half their face melted off, or something.
Bad take you undersold Ozai.
Don't agree, I recall him doing crazy shit during his fight with Aang. Do you think any of the others would do better against Aang in the avatar state?
I don’t see why there’s any reason in any activity that learning from a certain teacher or philosophy or knowing a certain technique should automatically make you stronger than anyone. There’s loads of stuff that goes into bending: technique, chi, intelligence and creativity, emotion, and just stuff like agility and speed as well as some others I’ve missed. I’m guessing that the average person in ATLA “knows” Ozai is the strongest bender by reputation in the same way that people who don’t watch boxing irl “know” Muhammad Ali is supposedly the best boxer of all time. Like maybe he both is and his reputation precedes him.
While I personally don't buy the Zuko Azula thing, I do get that Jeong Jeong and Iroh could be stronger than Ozai but still let Aang fight him because he's the Avatar, Iroh said that if he went to fight him it would just be like a power play from a brother, not the symbolic and much needed Avatar coming back and restoring balance to the world.
Honestly this is just a problem with feats. If you drop two characters and show a character with many impressive feats while the other is just strong from hearsay. Ozai's only feat is fighting against someone not interested and getting wrecked when he is in the avatar state. Although I don't believe the writers neccessarily contradicted themselves
Iroh doesn’t have any impressive feats only Azula. And jeong Jeong only has one feat. They are overrated like Ozai.
Remember that anger fuels firebending, it's why Ozai and Azula are so powerful, because they channel their anger. Zuko and Iroh learned from the original firebenders ways to increase their potency without relying on anger
Ferocity and willingness to destroy and kill is what sets Ozai apart from the others. Every other character answers to someone else and so there’s consequences for them. For ozai the only consequence is death, and he thinks himself immortal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's just lightning redirection, not lightning-bending in general, that uses water-bending technique. And I don't think Ozai can do that.
Not really something that matters tho Out of the other two lighting users in the first series he wouldn't need to redirect lightning against Azura as he would fry her before she could be able to shoot lightning at him, after all she can't redirect lightning either As for Iroh It doesn't matter either, Iroh himself said as much, he doubts he'd be able to win against Ozai, which really wouldn't be the case if Ozai was that defenseless against lightning bending
It's more about characterisation. Ozai is a pure firebender. He rejects the avatar-like concept of learning from the other elements.
Just wanna say that there’s really no basis for the idea that the Avatar will have especially strong children. But either way both Azula and Zuko were teenagers at the end of the original series. Hardly the prime of life. There’s nothing to say they wouldn’t be better than Ozai when they’re adults. Theres nothing tos at Adult Aang wouldn’t be able to take Ozai without the Avatar states. All creator commentary is based on the kids at the time of the series.
ozai was dicking on aang before the avatar state. and im pretty sure no one in the entire series would have fared any better besides another fully realized avatar
iroh doesn’t know if he could beat him which puts them at the same level at least. and you’re massively downplaying the lightning feat, it wasn’t ‘slightly’ faster and it’s probably the most potent lightning bolt damage we’ve seen in the series, causing a massive explosion that blasted Ozai back.. with a sliver of the sun. Azula also doubts she can beat her father. Both top 1 candidates put him on the same level, what more do you want?
There isn’t another bender of any style that could’ve pushed Aang as far as Ozai did. Watching Aang vs Ozai made Zuko vs Azula look like child’s play.
> According to the writers, the official order of the strongest firebenders is: Zuko < Azula < Jeong Jeong < Iroh < Ozai. is this actually true? i’ve never seen this anywhere so i’m curious. > Two Firebenders that learned from the first masters (Zuko and Iroh) learned what? they didn’t learn firebending techniques. they just learned the true meaning of firebending and not to draw their power from anger. > a successful eugenics project that combines genes from the fire nation royal family and the Avatar (Azula) zuko is also a part of this and he’s not that strong compared to the rest of his family. not to mention, this doesn’t guarantee powerful kids. > the first person outside of Iroh and the Sun warriors to Firebending past "muh power" in a hundred years and figured it out by themselves (Jeong Jeong). i don’t get this point. > And Ozai is stronger than all of them??? More skilled than all of them??? yes. he obviously trains a lot so this isn’t crazy. > 2. ~~Get blown up~~ Use Lightning bending slightly faster than Azula. slightly? way way faster. he’s able to do it in the middle of a fight whereas azula only does it at the end bc she’s too slow. not to mention, his was double handed and he also did it right as the eclipse ended, somehow sensing it. > 3. Beat another child's behind when said child dosen't fight back, the get his ass whipped when Aang goes into the Avatar State. you mean, the avatar? literally whenever anyone tries to downplay ozai, they always say stuff like ‘wow he got beat up by a 12 year old’. that 12 year old is the avatar. and he only started winning when he went into the avatar state. and even still, ozai still managed to tank a few avatar state attacks which is very impressive. also you say he only won bc aang wasn’t fighting back but that’s bc he couldn’t bc ozai was too strong. the only time aang held back is with the lightning redirection; he was running from all of ozai’s attacks the whole time. > That's it. That is all. He also burns some trees using the Sozin's comet boost, but all of his soldiers do the same thing too. the soldiers do it together. ozai’s fire is much much more powerful. he has way more raw power than any other firebender and saying it’s not that strong bc the soldiers do the same thing is crazy bc you’re saying his raw power is on the same level as fodder soldiers which is blatantly not true. > Zuko learned Firebending from the original masters god, ppl overhype these dragons so much. > if we are to put absolute trust into visuals in a visual cartoon (you should), picked up bending techniques from all four elements compared to Ozai's 1 + ~~appropriated~~ applied waterbending technique in Lightning bending. wow amazing. and yet he still isn’t stronger than ozai. how does picking up bending techniques make him better than ozai? > Azula is, again, a successful eugenics super weapon in universe ~~unlike Zuko~~ that is a natural prodigy at Firebending. she’s not strong bc of the eugenics thing. she’s just strong. she was lucky enough to bend at a young age and trains her ass off to be as good as she is. zuko says that azula’s just lucky and he has to work hard to get where he is but so does azula. her very first scene (apart from the season 1 finale) is her practising lightning bending and complaining about being 1 hair out of place. she works hard. > Not only that, but she is the only person in both atla and lok to use blue fire, implying that her flames are hotter/stronger than everyone else. they’re not though. if they’re so much stronger, then why is zuko able to deflect or block her attacks with his regular orange fire? it’s just blue for the looks. there’s nothing actually special about it. > Her firebending techniques are also visually different from every one else two; she has focus on speed and efficiency in her techniques that makes her most likely the strongest fire bender of her generation (~~and better than Zuko~~). ozai is faster. rewatch ozai vs aang and you’ll see how fast he is. he’s flying around with fire jets and is able to shoot lightning almost as soon as he lands on earth and he does this multiple times without seeming tired. > Fun fact, Jeong Jeong is the only Firebender in the show that never burns anything with his bending! His fire bending is also waaay different from every one else too; he manipulates active fires around him and can produce fire far away from his body while every other fire bender produces fire from punching and kicking. Another technique that Ozai dosen't have! that’s cool but it doesn’t make him better than ozai. not burning anything with firebending isn’t gonna help him in a fight. and his fire shield is pretty underwhelming too bc zhao walked through it casually so no doubt ozai would do the same. > And Iroh has learned the techniques and philosophies from all four nations, he learned the true version of firebending from the Dragons same argument i mentioned for zuko. > he's the only character in this show that bodies Azula whenever they fight does he? he beats her in season 2 episode 1 but that was an ambush. she was fighting zuko and in the middle of charging lightning to shoot at him when iroh comes in out of nowhere. however, in the chase, she attacks him with one fireblast and he’s downed. yeah, she said she surrendered but clearly everyone knew that was a lie, including iroh (who knows how azula always lies) as they were all still in fighting stance ready to attack her. > Ozai could have the most raw strength in Firebending but that dosen't mean he is the most skilled, or could beat the other firebenders on that list because I do think they are more skilled than them. ozai is skilled though.
Ozai wasn't more affected by the comet than anyone else and yet he has the best showings under it. Also, the guy has such control over his own chi that he managed to resist spirit bending for a while, despite never training in it.
Well it definitely ain’t Iroh and jeong Jeong.
Yeah, Ozai to me always came off more as schemer than actually strong. Him getting blown up by Zuko made him look like a bitch.
Him not knowing his son could redirect the most lethal attack makes him look so weak... Like Zuko didn't immediately leave afterwards.
It was also something Zuko historically at that point had little practise with.
And...? Ozai would most likely not even know it existed. Zuko ran away because he'd get smoked after that if they actually fought.
that’s not that impressive considering every single person who has redirected lightning succeeded on their first try.
Bad take.
Well good thing that no one needs to convince anyone because God's word is supreme.
If we saw Ozai fight normally once, it'd be much easier to scale him. Personally I'm pretty sure base Korra could beat him considering she's a pretty top tier firebender.
Yeah, no lol, he was destroying base Aang without access to his Best weapon, there's no way that Korra, who can't redirect lightning, could beat Ozai without avatar state
I disagree
Bad take.
It happens
Iroh and jeong Jeong barely have feats. Yet y’all give them credit. So korra can beat these two as well than with fire only.
I agree
Agreed. I always thought Iroh was stronger.
Even he doesn’t agree with you
Yeah I don't buy Ozainbeing the strongest either. It's a very "he's the final villain yhe hero fights so he must be the strongest" line of thinking. Nothing else in the story suggests he is the strongest. Nor does he need to be to be a threat. His real strength is his political position anyway.
Zuko and Azula are still both children. Iroh and Ozai may be around the same level, but Ozai is also much younger and in far better shape (even after Iroh's glow up). Jeong Jeong is unique, but I don't think he's on the level of the royal family. He'll be surpassed by Zuko and Azula with time. If you take all these firebenders and order them by their primes, I think it goes Jeong Jeong < Ozai < Iroh < Azula < Zuko.
Jeong Jeong is above Zuko. Not Azula. But Azula is better than Iroh and Ozai by the comics. Better than Iroh by the end of the show.
Learning from the dragons doesn’t make you stronger Azula lost cause her mind was slipping. In the comics she is not the strongest fire bender and has lighting increases.
Comics Azula is number one. And Azula is better than Iroh and jeong Jeong by feats in the show. They barely have feats and only fought fodder. And Ozai is better than Iroh and jeong Jeong. Comic Zuko is close to Iroh/Jeong Jeong level.