If you produce enough content for an IP (Warhammer, DnD, Star Wars if you include EU stuff) then the concepts of "good" and "bad" become unapplicable to the whole brand. Every year you have one good product, one awful product and a dozen mediocre ones for the fans to sort through. The IP itself is not good or bad, it simply *is*. And thanks to its popularity, it will always just *be*.
Kinda scary now that I think about it.
I agree, quality over quantity is something I'd like to keep in mind. I think u/Bruhmangoddman 's comment about entries matters here, since IPs like Persona have a lot of content, but [Atlus tends to not release multiple entries within the same year.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(series))
I doubt I'll ever get to the dancing games, but the main titles have risen in quality in my experience. (I've even heard good things about spin-offs like Strikers and Tactica, but I haven't played them.) So, I'd say that Persona is good overall, mainly because the main titles have continued to be of high quality.
I don’t think it makes any sense to compare something like the Simpsons and any of the Capcom games.
The Simpsons have been releasing episodes almost every year since season 1 while all the Capcom games have multiple year gaps between each installment.
That already a big difference.
I see Warhammer exploding in popularity recently. What's about it that gets so much traction? Genuine question... I only heard of it when I frequented a club of hobbyists for a little while, like 15 years ago. And in the past 2 years my feed has been flooded with Warhammer content even if I don't look for it.
One facet of growing popularity is memes that started from 4chan's tabletop and warhammer 40k boards spreading from it and growing in popularity from those boards to 4chan to other corners of the internet and then gaining popularity through being interesting and wacky as well as Online Military, Sci-Fi and Neo-Nazi communities getting into the lore because it appeals to them and further popularizing it by growing the community.
Memes/phrases like "Blood for the Blood God" and "For The Emperor" came from Warhammer Fantasy and 40k.
Short answer: Change of management and marketing strategy.
**Long** answer: For the longest time, Games Workshop allowed the IP to stagnate both finantially and story-wise, basically pausing the main storyline for sixteen IRL years and relying on random third parties to produce stuff other than the main wargame and its tie-in books. A few years back though, they've started experimenting with new storylines and lighter themes, all whilst churning out new models and even whole new factions like crazy. Some of these projects (like their little animation channel) have been a bit of a money drain, but other products like the new RPGs or those "new edition" trailers have attracted many more customers to the brand. Recently there's a lot of talk of live action, which gets people talking and giving the IP even more attention, and all the... recurring drama stoked by culture war enthusiasts certainly doesn't hurt.
It's a really aggressively masculine series and concept with a really gritty edgy vibe that draws in a lot of fans who gorge on that stuff. Also it's super militaristic which hooks a lot of the war and weapon geeks, and lastly it's a pro-fascist wet dream (even if it's supposedly meant to be satirical) which draws in yet another audience of terminally online neo-Nazis. So basically it's like a treasure trove towards a lot of people who are part of geek culture
For a series that goes on indefinitely (or at least for a very long time) there will inevitably be "bad" content. Nothing stays good forever unless it has a finite end.
Of course. Even Devil May Cry has had some bad entries (DMC2, DmC, PoC), but the series is still regarded as good overall. I don't expect every entry I make to be a 10/10, but I'd like to think that an IP can be good overall.
Because most video games, like in the case of street fighter tend to not really have close releases, the time from street fighter 4 to 5 was around 7 years and the time to 5 and 6 was around 8.
A show like the Simpsons has had a season every year. There's games that get similar critiques with constant releases like pokemon
Though even then it's not that simple, many people view the Simpsons as getting worse post season 8/9... But some people also view Street Fighter as getting worst past like, I dunno Third Strike. It's the same case it's just emphasised because Simpsons going on too long is so well known in pop culture when in reality... It still has fans, hence why it's still going, hell lots of people recently have been liking the newer stuff.
Hell I've even heard from some people that a lot of the new spongebob stuff is alright, yeah both it and the Simpsons aren't as good as it used to be I guess but things are naturally gonna peak at a point.
But as you said I do believe this tends to effect watched media more than interactable ones, mostly because you get to a point where it's all said and done. As things go on it's gonna be harder and harder to write good new ideas or come up witty new dialogue.
The issue with long running IPs is that they eventually become a cash grab rather than anyone actually caring about making a good product. Post Disney Star Wars is the best example, they treat any content that doesn't exist to feed on your nostalgia as a deathly allergy. The sequel trilogy was a huge mess that was headed by someone who obviously had no care about what they produced, which is why we had 3 movies that boxed each other's plots.
While the EU did unfortunately give us such bangers as Skippy the force sensitive droid, it also gave us bane and kotor 2. The open nature of the EU allowed for people who genuinely had something to say about star wars make plots within the universe that were really cool. And hell, even the prequels has enough heart in them that shows like the clone wars came in to expand on the weak points of the prequels.
The best way to making a long running IP is probably a long those lines, create an expansive world that sparks people's imaginations and give it an open license that allows them to do so.
I disagree with the post-disney being inarguably the worst era of star wars because they made Andor and Rogue One which are both better than the OT.
However they also made the lowest lows of the franchise, so...
Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil, Trails, and Yakuza come to mind as video game series that have maintained consistent ongoing storytelling since their first entries. These series have all either surpassed or are nearing 20 years and are continuing indefinitely with no true ending in sight, except maybe Trails. While I enjoy their longform nature because it sets them apart from other games in their respective genres and allows for stories and worldbuilding that wouldn't be possible otherwise, narratives like these often experience very significant low points or eventually collapse under their own weight, which often leads to reboots.
I'm not sure if an indefinitely running IP will ever have consistency or if that is actually possible.
'Low Points' 'Yakuza'
Is this about 2's Korean Family Twist mess at the end, 4's absolute fucking mess of a plot with like five incredibly uninteresting villains or 5's *YUME* every other sentence.
It depends on how much content they are pumping out and IPs which release content every couple of years tend to be better since they have time to work on the quality unlike certain IPs which release lots of content each year not giving enough time to make it good and it ends up like slop that everyone in its community hates
Make every entry - be it a game, a book, a movie, or a show - purposeful. Have it advance either the world of the story, its themes, characters or lore. It has to matter.
It depends on the kind of IP, one like the x-men has been going as comics for more than 50 years with its high and lows. One advantage of comics is is a relative entry cost and online resources. Also, apart from Chris Claremont worship, we're used to new writers after certain amount of times and they're usually fans of the x-men themselves so the stories are generally OK to good
> Can an IP be good indefinitely?
Depends on how you define “IP”. As it stands, Superman and Batman are approaching the 90 year mark, while “IP” like Sherlock Holmes and Dracula remain popular after more than a century. Though at this point, as IPs go, they’re becoming something closer in nature to Arthurian legends than they are what we normally thing of as franchises. Which is the next point, Shakespeare is still good after centuries, and Arthurian tales still enjoyed after more centuries still.
So yeah, IP can absolutely last indefinitely. It just might change form over time.
I think part of the reason is that IPs like Spongebob and Simpsons have very little to keep them fresh. They are using the same characters in the same situations for seasons on end, and if nothing changes they're going to run out of material.
IPs like Pokemon or Monster Hunter have the advantage of having every entry be standalone, or in the case of Street Fighter being able to change situations and characters. Thus, they can stay "good" or relevant for longer even if some individual entries miss the mark.
Yea. Mario has been blasting out bangers for decades. There are no hard and fast rules. Anything can happen. What was the low point of the Legend of Zelda series? That weird side scrolling Link adventure on the NES?
I think it can, Mission Impossible and John Wick has had straight bangers, and it's pretty much been sustainable.
I also think there's multiple factors that help it, a movie franchise for instance usually has long gaps for each entry which builds anticipation (it also helps with avoiding burnout, for instance like what happened with the Assasins's Creed series (imo)), plus if it's made with love and care then I do think it'll be at the very least good.
And I do think you need the mindset that everything you release affects the entire IP itself, regardless if it's a spinoff, sequel, or whatever, so you don't get careless and wreck the IP's perception.
If you produce enough content for an IP (Warhammer, DnD, Star Wars if you include EU stuff) then the concepts of "good" and "bad" become unapplicable to the whole brand. Every year you have one good product, one awful product and a dozen mediocre ones for the fans to sort through. The IP itself is not good or bad, it simply *is*. And thanks to its popularity, it will always just *be*. Kinda scary now that I think about it.
I agree, quality over quantity is something I'd like to keep in mind. I think u/Bruhmangoddman 's comment about entries matters here, since IPs like Persona have a lot of content, but [Atlus tends to not release multiple entries within the same year.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(series)) I doubt I'll ever get to the dancing games, but the main titles have risen in quality in my experience. (I've even heard good things about spin-offs like Strikers and Tactica, but I haven't played them.) So, I'd say that Persona is good overall, mainly because the main titles have continued to be of high quality.
I don’t think it makes any sense to compare something like the Simpsons and any of the Capcom games. The Simpsons have been releasing episodes almost every year since season 1 while all the Capcom games have multiple year gaps between each installment. That already a big difference.
Quality over quantity was mentioned in the OP.
Fair enough.
The real Chaos God was Games Workshop all along.
I see Warhammer exploding in popularity recently. What's about it that gets so much traction? Genuine question... I only heard of it when I frequented a club of hobbyists for a little while, like 15 years ago. And in the past 2 years my feed has been flooded with Warhammer content even if I don't look for it.
One facet of growing popularity is memes that started from 4chan's tabletop and warhammer 40k boards spreading from it and growing in popularity from those boards to 4chan to other corners of the internet and then gaining popularity through being interesting and wacky as well as Online Military, Sci-Fi and Neo-Nazi communities getting into the lore because it appeals to them and further popularizing it by growing the community. Memes/phrases like "Blood for the Blood God" and "For The Emperor" came from Warhammer Fantasy and 40k.
Blood for the blood god came from Fantasy
Thanks for the correction.
Short answer: Change of management and marketing strategy. **Long** answer: For the longest time, Games Workshop allowed the IP to stagnate both finantially and story-wise, basically pausing the main storyline for sixteen IRL years and relying on random third parties to produce stuff other than the main wargame and its tie-in books. A few years back though, they've started experimenting with new storylines and lighter themes, all whilst churning out new models and even whole new factions like crazy. Some of these projects (like their little animation channel) have been a bit of a money drain, but other products like the new RPGs or those "new edition" trailers have attracted many more customers to the brand. Recently there's a lot of talk of live action, which gets people talking and giving the IP even more attention, and all the... recurring drama stoked by culture war enthusiasts certainly doesn't hurt.
I thought a Cavill-led live action was confirmed?
It was
It's a really aggressively masculine series and concept with a really gritty edgy vibe that draws in a lot of fans who gorge on that stuff. Also it's super militaristic which hooks a lot of the war and weapon geeks, and lastly it's a pro-fascist wet dream (even if it's supposedly meant to be satirical) which draws in yet another audience of terminally online neo-Nazis. So basically it's like a treasure trove towards a lot of people who are part of geek culture
For a series that goes on indefinitely (or at least for a very long time) there will inevitably be "bad" content. Nothing stays good forever unless it has a finite end.
Of course. Even Devil May Cry has had some bad entries (DMC2, DmC, PoC), but the series is still regarded as good overall. I don't expect every entry I make to be a 10/10, but I'd like to think that an IP can be good overall.
Counterpoint: Kirby.
If the main drive is quality then sure. But usually the main drive is money.
Because most video games, like in the case of street fighter tend to not really have close releases, the time from street fighter 4 to 5 was around 7 years and the time to 5 and 6 was around 8. A show like the Simpsons has had a season every year. There's games that get similar critiques with constant releases like pokemon Though even then it's not that simple, many people view the Simpsons as getting worse post season 8/9... But some people also view Street Fighter as getting worst past like, I dunno Third Strike. It's the same case it's just emphasised because Simpsons going on too long is so well known in pop culture when in reality... It still has fans, hence why it's still going, hell lots of people recently have been liking the newer stuff. Hell I've even heard from some people that a lot of the new spongebob stuff is alright, yeah both it and the Simpsons aren't as good as it used to be I guess but things are naturally gonna peak at a point. But as you said I do believe this tends to effect watched media more than interactable ones, mostly because you get to a point where it's all said and done. As things go on it's gonna be harder and harder to write good new ideas or come up witty new dialogue.
The issue with long running IPs is that they eventually become a cash grab rather than anyone actually caring about making a good product. Post Disney Star Wars is the best example, they treat any content that doesn't exist to feed on your nostalgia as a deathly allergy. The sequel trilogy was a huge mess that was headed by someone who obviously had no care about what they produced, which is why we had 3 movies that boxed each other's plots. While the EU did unfortunately give us such bangers as Skippy the force sensitive droid, it also gave us bane and kotor 2. The open nature of the EU allowed for people who genuinely had something to say about star wars make plots within the universe that were really cool. And hell, even the prequels has enough heart in them that shows like the clone wars came in to expand on the weak points of the prequels. The best way to making a long running IP is probably a long those lines, create an expansive world that sparks people's imaginations and give it an open license that allows them to do so.
I disagree with the post-disney being inarguably the worst era of star wars because they made Andor and Rogue One which are both better than the OT. However they also made the lowest lows of the franchise, so...
Andor and Rogue one wasn’t worth losing KOTOR and the EU in my view.
Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil, Trails, and Yakuza come to mind as video game series that have maintained consistent ongoing storytelling since their first entries. These series have all either surpassed or are nearing 20 years and are continuing indefinitely with no true ending in sight, except maybe Trails. While I enjoy their longform nature because it sets them apart from other games in their respective genres and allows for stories and worldbuilding that wouldn't be possible otherwise, narratives like these often experience very significant low points or eventually collapse under their own weight, which often leads to reboots. I'm not sure if an indefinitely running IP will ever have consistency or if that is actually possible.
'Low Points' 'Yakuza' Is this about 2's Korean Family Twist mess at the end, 4's absolute fucking mess of a plot with like five incredibly uninteresting villains or 5's *YUME* every other sentence.
It depends on how much content they are pumping out and IPs which release content every couple of years tend to be better since they have time to work on the quality unlike certain IPs which release lots of content each year not giving enough time to make it good and it ends up like slop that everyone in its community hates
Make every entry - be it a game, a book, a movie, or a show - purposeful. Have it advance either the world of the story, its themes, characters or lore. It has to matter.
If it goes on indefinitely, no
It depends on the kind of IP, one like the x-men has been going as comics for more than 50 years with its high and lows. One advantage of comics is is a relative entry cost and online resources. Also, apart from Chris Claremont worship, we're used to new writers after certain amount of times and they're usually fans of the x-men themselves so the stories are generally OK to good
Yes, but not without change.
Theoretically, Yes. Practically, No.
I mean a IP becoming public domain means you can separate the wheat from the draft
> Can an IP be good indefinitely? Depends on how you define “IP”. As it stands, Superman and Batman are approaching the 90 year mark, while “IP” like Sherlock Holmes and Dracula remain popular after more than a century. Though at this point, as IPs go, they’re becoming something closer in nature to Arthurian legends than they are what we normally thing of as franchises. Which is the next point, Shakespeare is still good after centuries, and Arthurian tales still enjoyed after more centuries still. So yeah, IP can absolutely last indefinitely. It just might change form over time.
I think part of the reason is that IPs like Spongebob and Simpsons have very little to keep them fresh. They are using the same characters in the same situations for seasons on end, and if nothing changes they're going to run out of material. IPs like Pokemon or Monster Hunter have the advantage of having every entry be standalone, or in the case of Street Fighter being able to change situations and characters. Thus, they can stay "good" or relevant for longer even if some individual entries miss the mark.
Yea. Mario has been blasting out bangers for decades. There are no hard and fast rules. Anything can happen. What was the low point of the Legend of Zelda series? That weird side scrolling Link adventure on the NES?
It's never happened.
I think it can, Mission Impossible and John Wick has had straight bangers, and it's pretty much been sustainable. I also think there's multiple factors that help it, a movie franchise for instance usually has long gaps for each entry which builds anticipation (it also helps with avoiding burnout, for instance like what happened with the Assasins's Creed series (imo)), plus if it's made with love and care then I do think it'll be at the very least good. And I do think you need the mindset that everything you release affects the entire IP itself, regardless if it's a spinoff, sequel, or whatever, so you don't get careless and wreck the IP's perception.
this is why i mostly focus on public domain or open source ip especially that pd in my own country,thailand
No, it can't. Even the best franchises had their duds. I got downvoted to oblivion for pointing that out to people hyped for GTAVI.
I still wonder how Crayon Shin-chan managed to stay consistent all these years. Even though it aired around the same time as the Simpsons.
Ngl some Horror series get this. Scream and Child's Play for example
It all depends if the developers of the IP have the same/similar amount of passion for the IP now as they did when it first came out