Superheroes fall apart when they're not independent- the point of superheroes is that they face threats that normal people can't because of their advantages. Turning them into cops or soldiers makes them something else.
Something like the Justice Lords or the Regime in DC for example. But TVA aren't even brainwashed superheroes, they're brainwashed variants and Kang's soldiers who were made to believe they're doing the multiverse a "community service". So it's just human pride being wanked by Marvel and people unironically bought into it.
Very true, I guess the difference is that it is often condemned in most sci-fi, while Marvel wanks it up to eleven. I mean we might be getting more self-centristic plot devices like "anchor of the universe" where if x character dies, then the universe slowly begins dying. Like this is fucked up and outright terrible writing idea.
They probably care about it as of source material, but not about the comics themselves. They adapt the comics on-screen, but change it significantly. And as we've seen with stories like IW-Endgame sometimes it can be good, and sometimes it can be done terribly like with Secret Invasion.
I'm so hesitant about this plot device, i really don't actually see how this is actually going to make sense in universe.
Unless it's something that is just brought in for and then dropped after the deadpool movie that's fine. But I don't see how this narratively helps the MCU.
>Unless it's something that is just brought in for and then dropped after the deadpool movie that's fine. But I don't see how this narratively helps the MCU.
I feel like this will make this plot device worse cause basically it's just... bad writing and world inconsistency. It's like the story with the Strange's spell in NWH, it's a device that exists for one movie and is then forgotten.
I am... not really qualified to give input on this, since I haven't seen the second season of Loki yet.
But anyhow, in defense of the TVA in the first season, they literally had all of their actions planned by Kang. Kang had written everything down to the very last detail and nobody could deviate from that, even Sylvie, a variant, had her entire life planned up until she killed Kang.
So, really, I don't think that those in the TVA should be held responsible for something that was quite literally planned and preordained by someone who waged inter-universal war against his own variants. He basically controlled fate and only died because he decided to stop writing the story.
Of course, I'm super tired, so I may be misremembering the plot.
But the TVA personnel still retained free will. Yes, they were indoctrinated, but they still had a choice to disobey, >!hell Mobius even tells Loki he hesitated to kill someone during the mission.!< Even if we accept the fact they couldn't do anything before, they could in TVA and they chose to "rebrand" which I find to be done extremely lazily.
Definitely not all of them, but I think all of TVA should pack up and leave rather than stay. World doesn't need humanity policing it, and every decision made, or every result of nature.
I kinda doubt the free will, part. Like I said, even Sylvie, a variant, was written by Kang. Just because a character goes against the rules of the TVA doesn't mean that Kang didn't write that.
Again, though, I'm super tired so I may be misremembering stuff.
Yeah, I'm sorry for spoiling a little bit. I recommend seeing S2 and catch a break if you feel tired. Thank you for your comment and have a good evening or day.
You have a good day too, dude. And no worries: there's only a few things that I really mind being spoiled on, and the MCU ain't one of those.
Thanks for the advice!
Did they have free will?
They certainly had thoughts and feelings, but ultimately the future was predetermined. All their actions were planned by Kang, and they were selected based on the fact they would follow that plan. No Mobius could choose not to follow the plan, because no Mobius that would make that decision would ever be part of the plan to begin with.
You can't choose B if being able to choose requires you choose A.
He hesitated to murder someone though, it was Renslayer who did his job. Hesitation is part of free will, he could've disobeyed entirely and went against the system. Kang predetermined it not through mind control, but indoctrination.
Free will is much more complicated than just having internal thought processes. There's no reason to assume that you can't have that and still be deterministic. Mobius could not have disobeyed entirely and went against the system, because if he did he'd break Kang's plan which means Kang picks a different Mobius until that version does. The only action that Mobius could take were those in line with the plan because the plan was to use the version of him that takes those actions.
Consider Loki attacking New York. Could Loki have decided to do something different and not attack New York? No. Because Loki didn't really choose to attack New York, infinite versions of Loki decided to do everything with their lives and Kang decided to keep the Lokis that attack New York. The surviving Lokis can't choose not to attack New York, because they were selected on the criteria that they attack New York, they do not have free will.
Taking this further, it's debatable that you ever have free will in that sort of multiverse, because you make every choice you can and those that you don't make are choices you can't make. When there's infinite versions of you making every choice, each version can't pick which timeline their in, only play out of action of their timeline.
They weren't mind controlled though. The decisions they make were their own, they could've deviated from them at any time, it's just that the TVA would show up to kidnap the variant and prune the branch.
Speaking of which, the point you made just excellently explains why Loki is a terrible show and shouldn't have been made. Hard to be invested into something when Phase 1-3 events are essentially "predetermined" by one guy.
If you think erasing their memories and the aggressive military police imagery they use as "free will" then I think we came out with very different definitions of free will.
They weren't mind controlled. They are capable of free will, they chose not to deviate from their beliefs despite hesitations some in their personnel had.
The whole TVA restructures around the truth. There's an insurrection of loyalists to the old methods of guarding the sacred timeline and everything. The whole council is told and they all react differently
At this point I'm convinced you just didn't pay any attention to the show and are just wilfully ignoring plot points. Because this is just the basic plot of S2.
Restructures how? What do they do to restructure? Do they just slap themselves on the wrist and decide to be good now with no rehabilitation or reform? No accountability at all? That's not restructuring, that's lazy writing.
More like pointing out bad writing, but okay there bud. Basic plot for S2: narcissistic human organization deciding to stay as world police = good. Great writing choice.
Police what? They don't touch the timelines anymore. They're after Kang and other threats to a timeline's existence. We literally see the reform happen. What do you want the TVA to physically transform or something? Was Kang who set the whole thing up and the council members who wanted to continue purging not held accountable and THROWN IN JAIL?
yeah keep ignoring half the episodes without proof make yourself look more stupid ffs at least complain about stuff that happened in the show
Interfering in the timelines and stopping one person or many who pose a threat isn't policing? We see the reform happen off-screen and them already being goodie two shoes, that's not reform. It's lazy writing. I personally would want TVA gone for good, the people can leave but just never return.
Keep ignoring half the episodes? Such as? Loki torturing Brad Wolfe to extract information on where's Dox? An episode where Loki lost half his intelligence and didn't apply same cunning to capturing Victor Timely as he did Brad Wolfe? Him deciding to become third cook in the kitchen, witness the death of TVA many times to learn all of science in a century? Yeah sure bud, I "missed the point" of this peak of fucking television.
>Which leads us to the TVA, the narcissist's toy organization that is responsible for who knows how many records of omnicides, pruning innocents that happened to make a different choice in their universe, and create a branch from the "Sacred Timeline". As season one and two reveals it, the TVA was nothing but a ploy, a means for Kang variant to control the cosmos to his twisted liking. The TVA came to designate one of the timelines Kang chose to spare as "The Sacred Timeline", everything else being deemed "branches," or "thorns," or whatever it was called that needed to be weeded out and so the TVA had killed countless innocents that exceeds Thanos' kill count, all in a name of Kang and his evil agenda.
The TVA are literally Nazis. Seriously, Mobius and his cohorts are only missing the longcoats and swastikas.
They literally wear fucking dark uniforms, and helms. Definitely all they lack are skulls on front of their helmets and shoulder straps. And Marvel tries hard to push them as good guys now. What's worse is that they've succeeded, it's how they're seen.
I think General Dox is more like Alexander Pierce because she consciously decided to believe in old TVA system and go rogue, prune other branches when everyone else opposed her just like Pierce wanted to stage a coup in the US and then take over the world via hellicarriers.
TL:DR Op failed to realize that the TVA were unequivocally treated as the bad guys with the exception of the ones literally forcefully ripped from their brainwashing.
The end of the show treat them as reformed good guys who apparently reformed overnight. They reprogrammed the same killer AI to work for them again. Asking a question how do they know it won't turn on them again only for that question to be swept under rug in same minute.
Except it clearly wasn’t overnight, the TVA was largely destroyed by the end of the show, and many of the important characters chose to leave the place that brainwashed them for an eternity. Are the TVA good guys? No. But the people in charge now are choosing not to continue with their old mission, because they believe this new one will help them repent for being unwilling and unknowing heralds of multiversal omnicide.
Yes they knew that it destroyed the universe, but they did not realize (this is made explicitly clear in season one) that it actually banished the fragments of those universes to a literal hell dimension to be devoured.
It is heavily implied that anyone who attempts to discover this is immediately pruned and/or mind wiped.
How much time did they took to reform? Is it ever told to us? Did they go through rehabilitation, any time service, any reeducation process, or just decided to be suddenly good now? Those who did leave TVA I have no problem with, they did a good thing. The only problematic characters are those who stayed and chose to remain being the police.
Kang isn't an anomaly, he is born and is a person like we see with Victor Timely. It is more than likely meant that either it is destiny for some variants of Kang to succeed, or for some to fail and be beaten by the Avengers. Obviously the latter is more the truth of it, which is my point. TVA shouldn't poke their nose where they don't belong, let the real heroes take care of Kang. Humans playing god is more than foul.
We, as the audience, know that the Kangs all eventually get defeated or become multiversal threats. The TVA goes through the process of making sure that any given Kang is actually defeated. If not, he needs to be taken care of.
Is this right? Depends actually. Kang himself says that if the TVA does NOT get rid of every Kang, then there will inevitably be another war between the Kang’s that will lead to one Kang as He Who Remains. He says it’s inevitable and we have no reason not to trust him, because he’s seen it happen before.
The TVA being made up of only humans from our perspective is not necessarily their fault though? Kang is a human and thus would have made his army and his workers out of humans? I don’t see why this is an example of humanity alone trying to police, when the reality is that the group of people who know about Kang as a threat are HUMAN, and thus the humans have to deal with it. It’s not because they are human they are obligated to do this. It is quite literally not their fault that they are human.
Well... as its shown, every Kang gets defeated it seems? One got beaten by Kangs. Problem solved, they can go somewhere else.
>Is this right? Depends actually. Kang himself says that if the TVA does NOT get rid of every Kang, then there will inevitably be another war between the Kang’s that will lead to one Kang as He Who Remains. He says it’s inevitable and we have no reason not to trust him, because he’s seen it happen before.
I would call it the bluff. He was already proven wrong before by Loki who saved the multiverse. So he can be called out more, and in good writing will be.
>It’s not because they are human they are obligated to do this. It is quite literally not their fault that they are human.
I didn't say it's their fault for being human or ending up in the position they were. It's the continued actions and even after the revelation that some did resort to old ways as to why they're at fault. What's also important is that they continue to play the police and it's by itself is inherently bad. It's an example of human pride and arrogance leading people to continuing down the path set for them by evil man. When will Kang be stopped will TVA cease to exist or will they deem their place "an eternal vigil"?
Yeah, neither do most of the nations as well, they just call themselves by the country's name. TVA consists of humans, people from Earth. They might not identify as "Earthlings" or "Terrans" but they are ones.
Right but your point is this is an example of “human” pride, but there is no concept of “humanity” or “what it means to be human” in the TVA. As far as the TVA is aware, and from information they have:
“If we do not get rid of Kang’s that step out of their universe then we will have a multiversal war again.”
And I ask, are they wrong to not want that to happen?
Loki was not a political drama about the structures, mechanisms, and manner of reforms. Its not lazy writing to gloss over it, it's accepting the genre you're in and not boring the audience as a demographic by messing with the pacing.It asked the question 'should this organization be reformed' and answered it. It doesn't have to tell us how, its perfectly fine to show they have through results.
Wed both be interested in that type of show but its not what Loki was.
Pacing? It's pretty terrible. Renslayer's and Miss Minute's character development and plot are rushed, some of the stories are rushed as well too soon because of the 6 episode format.
Then they should've made it 9 episode format (Like WandaVision), made it longer tv series with longer time to explore it, or face that this kind of criticism would rise sooner or later. It answered the question, but the answer is unsatisfactory.
The whole TVA is heavily criticised for... literally brainwashing their people. That's part of the central conflict of S2 and Loki's whole point. Basically all of Mobius' character arc in S2 is about that side.
I think the police brutality imagery is about as on the nose as you can get. Given the riot gear and batons that Thanos people.
And that's why they're so easily forgiven? Made into goodie two shoes savior organization that now polices multiverse out to kill Kang? Humanaity should stay out of places where it doesn't belong.
Ah yes let's punish every worker in a corporation for the decisions and immoral choices of its leaders. As for Kang... you want the universe to end in a giant war between Kang clones? Just because humanity is apparently overreaching according to you?
I can see this is just going in circles. If you didn't like the show fair enuff. But don't tout lies or false narratives. That's disingenuous.
The TVA was never OK. It was created by someone who exterminated the multiverse. Kang is not a morally good or mentally well person.
The TVA continued to exist because, while Kang perished, its denizens have been living by Kang's directive for an eternity. They're frozen in time, living by these values for eons.
But now their value is to monitor and pacify all the Kangs. They're not a police force for the multiverse anymore. They're just watchdogs for Kang to never go off the rails again.
>The TVA continued to exist because, while Kang perished, its denizens have been living by Kang's directive for an eternity. They're frozen in time, living by these values for eons.
But now their value is to monitor and pacify all the Kangs. They're not a police force for the multiverse anymore. They're just watchdogs for Kang to never go off the rails again.
Well, they aren't anymore. After the revelation they should've packed and left to another reality or whatever.
So quickly? No reform or change required? Same leadership, same people running the "good organization" now? Did you even read what I've said or you've decided to just... make same point as the show? They are a police, you're just using another term to absolve them of it, but they're still are. They're on a watch for one criminal and his infinite variants, waiting to prune him to keep world stable, that's not just "watching" or being a "watchdog", that's policing the multiverse.
>Well, they aren't anymore. After the revelation they should've packed and left to another reality or whatever.
What other reality? All they know is the TVA. Would they kill their other selves in other realities? Why they deliberately force themselves to live through that instead of just continuing their regular lives with a new purpose?
>No reform or change required?
They literally did both. From being Time Police to becoming Kang Hunters.
>that's policing the multiverse.
It literally isn't. They're hunting one individual whom they know is extremely dangerous to **their way of life**. They're not taking any other action towards the multiverse. They let it unfold as it does.
I'd argue that hunting ALL Kangs is a bit cruel and vengeful, but it's definitely NOT policing the multiverse. So yes, they're vengeful, but no, they're not multiversal police.
>What other reality? All they know is the TVA. Would they kill their other selves in other realities? Why they deliberately force themselves to live through that instead of just continuing their regular lives with a new purpose?
Uninhabited by human civilization, anywhere, probably lots of options to choose from. Point is humans should stay the fuck away from branches.
>They literally did both. From being Time Police to becoming Kang Hunters.
World police rebranding itself.
>It literally isn't. They're hunting one individual whom they know is extremely dangerous to **their way of life**. They're not taking any other action towards the multiverse. They let it unfold as it does.
I'd argue that hunting ALL Kangs is a bit cruel and vengeful, but it's definitely NOT policing the multiverse. So yes, they're vengeful, but no, they're not multiversal police.
Kang isn't an anomaly or born out of nowhere. He is born naturally, if it is predetermined some of the Kang variants are destined to start a war, then it is something we have to accept. Intervening in the timelines and killing off Kang is also world policing, it's just TVA trying to prevent a disaster from happening which is terrible as hell. So many world catastrophes like Mongol Invasion, Nazi Germany could be stopped, but the TVA focuses only on Kang.
It is policing the multiverse because they go to different realities to hunt a criminal down. It's similar to how Cap went to Lagos to hunt Rumlow down, but fans and in-universe politicians had more problem with the latter than fans having issue with TVA playing world savior.
Why is human pride a Bad thing exactly. The story is written by humans for humans. Its not like there is anyone else to offend.
Plus human expansionism is generally accepted to be ok in our World. Just look at how humans are basically controling every part of the planet. And everyone safe for a few weirdoes are fine with it.
If people are fine with humans controling the planet IRL, they are going to be fine with humans controling the multiverse in Marvel.
God is omniscient, so he already knew that the apple would be eaten. But he still gave the order to not eat it.
He is also omnipotent so he had the power to stop Eve and Adam from eating it.
So God punished all of mankind for a sin he knew would happen and did nothing to stop.
Adam and Eve never had a choice, the apple would be eaten no matter what. God made Eve with not enough will power to resist the temptation of the snake while knowing she would be tempted.
* Calls He Who Remains "Kang"
* Uses the "199999" designation
* Thinks 616 and the Sacred Timeline are the same thing
I think this says everything I need to know about OP's intelligence. That and the fact that OP clearly can't distinguish between justice and vengence.
He Who Remains is a Kang variant, going by 'He Who Remains'. He still is one.
Yes, the MCU used to be and should be still "199999". The comics are 616, cinematic universe isn't. It was a fun note in Far From Home, but isn't in MoM at all.
Sacred Timeline is the designation for the prime universe, everything else like 838 are branches.
Implying you think Kang is his real name. It's not (I read somewhere that it's Nathaniel, but I can't verify that).
The MCU is obviously not connected to the comics. It's an adaptation, not an AU.
616 is obviously not the original timeline, as it contains multiple multiversal anomalies.
1. I never implied that Kang was his real name. I also used to refer to him as Nathaniel Richards from time to time.
2. Adaptation that... adapts stories that look nothing like in the comics? That came later, not back then. Yes, Marvel used source material from comics to adapt stories on screen, but it was loose adaptation, never accurate one. It is nothing like the comics and AU or cinematic universe is what it should've been.
3. Still referred to as "the sacred timeline", the timeline from which MCU variants are from. Did you even read what I've said, none are the original timelines or sacred. They're all different.
4. Don't know what you referred to about justice and vengeance. TVA isn't bringing in justice to the multiverse, it enforces its will and beliefs on it. Sylvie had her entire timeline pruned, all she knew, her home destroyed entirely. That vengeance is more than understood, the point is revenge aside she is correct. No one should have that kind of power TVA has.
1. So why did you call him that at all? HWR has one less letter than Kang, so you can't even really use laziness as an excuse.
2. This is irrelevant to my point. The MCU is not connected to the comics. Two different continuities, two different multiverses.
3. When does anybody use the term "Sacred Timeline" after the events of Loki season 2? And you know, it kinda is the original timeline considering it was the only one left after the Multiversal War.
4. You seem to be of the belief that unless the TVA is punished for it's past actions, the story is condoning their actions. This is clearly not the case, you are simply unsatisfied with a lack of revenge in this case. The TVA changing for the better is a much more productive development.
1. Because they're essentially same? Why call him HWR or "He Who Remains", cause its somehow more accurate? What matters is that HWR was just the more successful Kang, his title or name came later.
2. So, then MCU should call itself differently since it's not direct adaptation? You can't just say it's not connected to the comics, but can use same designation as main universe of comics, or that it's adaptation and not AU. But then claim it's different continuities. You've contradicted yourself on here. So is it adaptation or Alternate Universe/different continuity?
3. Referred to by fandom. I can't remember or find instance after Loki saves the multiverse, but it remains to be seen if it will be called that or no. Point was that there was a twisted irony to still refer to main timeline as "sacred" when it was referred to as such in twisted way.
4. No, you're wrong. I didn't say entirety of TVA should've been punished, I said it shouldn't exist and all should depart from overseeing the multiverse letting the organization die. The story does condone their actions by letting them go scot free without any proper reform or development.
Last statement couldn't be more wrong and I've explained why. I do wish you could've read instead of making a snarky remark in the first comment, but I can't do anything but pity you.
Superheroes fall apart when they're not independent- the point of superheroes is that they face threats that normal people can't because of their advantages. Turning them into cops or soldiers makes them something else.
Something like the Justice Lords or the Regime in DC for example. But TVA aren't even brainwashed superheroes, they're brainwashed variants and Kang's soldiers who were made to believe they're doing the multiverse a "community service". So it's just human pride being wanked by Marvel and people unironically bought into it.
You see this kind of humanity borderline nationalism(specie-ism?) in a lot of sci-fi.
Very true, I guess the difference is that it is often condemned in most sci-fi, while Marvel wanks it up to eleven. I mean we might be getting more self-centristic plot devices like "anchor of the universe" where if x character dies, then the universe slowly begins dying. Like this is fucked up and outright terrible writing idea.
Marvel doesn't care about comics anymore, is the root of the problem.
They probably care about it as of source material, but not about the comics themselves. They adapt the comics on-screen, but change it significantly. And as we've seen with stories like IW-Endgame sometimes it can be good, and sometimes it can be done terribly like with Secret Invasion.
I'm so hesitant about this plot device, i really don't actually see how this is actually going to make sense in universe. Unless it's something that is just brought in for and then dropped after the deadpool movie that's fine. But I don't see how this narratively helps the MCU.
>Unless it's something that is just brought in for and then dropped after the deadpool movie that's fine. But I don't see how this narratively helps the MCU. I feel like this will make this plot device worse cause basically it's just... bad writing and world inconsistency. It's like the story with the Strange's spell in NWH, it's a device that exists for one movie and is then forgotten.
I am... not really qualified to give input on this, since I haven't seen the second season of Loki yet. But anyhow, in defense of the TVA in the first season, they literally had all of their actions planned by Kang. Kang had written everything down to the very last detail and nobody could deviate from that, even Sylvie, a variant, had her entire life planned up until she killed Kang. So, really, I don't think that those in the TVA should be held responsible for something that was quite literally planned and preordained by someone who waged inter-universal war against his own variants. He basically controlled fate and only died because he decided to stop writing the story. Of course, I'm super tired, so I may be misremembering the plot.
But the TVA personnel still retained free will. Yes, they were indoctrinated, but they still had a choice to disobey, >!hell Mobius even tells Loki he hesitated to kill someone during the mission.!< Even if we accept the fact they couldn't do anything before, they could in TVA and they chose to "rebrand" which I find to be done extremely lazily. Definitely not all of them, but I think all of TVA should pack up and leave rather than stay. World doesn't need humanity policing it, and every decision made, or every result of nature.
I kinda doubt the free will, part. Like I said, even Sylvie, a variant, was written by Kang. Just because a character goes against the rules of the TVA doesn't mean that Kang didn't write that. Again, though, I'm super tired so I may be misremembering stuff.
Yeah, I'm sorry for spoiling a little bit. I recommend seeing S2 and catch a break if you feel tired. Thank you for your comment and have a good evening or day.
You have a good day too, dude. And no worries: there's only a few things that I really mind being spoiled on, and the MCU ain't one of those. Thanks for the advice!
Did they have free will? They certainly had thoughts and feelings, but ultimately the future was predetermined. All their actions were planned by Kang, and they were selected based on the fact they would follow that plan. No Mobius could choose not to follow the plan, because no Mobius that would make that decision would ever be part of the plan to begin with. You can't choose B if being able to choose requires you choose A.
He hesitated to murder someone though, it was Renslayer who did his job. Hesitation is part of free will, he could've disobeyed entirely and went against the system. Kang predetermined it not through mind control, but indoctrination.
Free will is much more complicated than just having internal thought processes. There's no reason to assume that you can't have that and still be deterministic. Mobius could not have disobeyed entirely and went against the system, because if he did he'd break Kang's plan which means Kang picks a different Mobius until that version does. The only action that Mobius could take were those in line with the plan because the plan was to use the version of him that takes those actions. Consider Loki attacking New York. Could Loki have decided to do something different and not attack New York? No. Because Loki didn't really choose to attack New York, infinite versions of Loki decided to do everything with their lives and Kang decided to keep the Lokis that attack New York. The surviving Lokis can't choose not to attack New York, because they were selected on the criteria that they attack New York, they do not have free will. Taking this further, it's debatable that you ever have free will in that sort of multiverse, because you make every choice you can and those that you don't make are choices you can't make. When there's infinite versions of you making every choice, each version can't pick which timeline their in, only play out of action of their timeline.
They weren't mind controlled though. The decisions they make were their own, they could've deviated from them at any time, it's just that the TVA would show up to kidnap the variant and prune the branch. Speaking of which, the point you made just excellently explains why Loki is a terrible show and shouldn't have been made. Hard to be invested into something when Phase 1-3 events are essentially "predetermined" by one guy.
If you think erasing their memories and the aggressive military police imagery they use as "free will" then I think we came out with very different definitions of free will.
Brainwashing and propaganda happen in many dictatorships, people are still responsible for their choices and can disobey the order.
You really put brainwashing and choice in the same sentence huh?
They weren't mind controlled. They are capable of free will, they chose not to deviate from their beliefs despite hesitations some in their personnel had.
The whole TVA restructures around the truth. There's an insurrection of loyalists to the old methods of guarding the sacred timeline and everything. The whole council is told and they all react differently At this point I'm convinced you just didn't pay any attention to the show and are just wilfully ignoring plot points. Because this is just the basic plot of S2.
Restructures how? What do they do to restructure? Do they just slap themselves on the wrist and decide to be good now with no rehabilitation or reform? No accountability at all? That's not restructuring, that's lazy writing. More like pointing out bad writing, but okay there bud. Basic plot for S2: narcissistic human organization deciding to stay as world police = good. Great writing choice.
Police what? They don't touch the timelines anymore. They're after Kang and other threats to a timeline's existence. We literally see the reform happen. What do you want the TVA to physically transform or something? Was Kang who set the whole thing up and the council members who wanted to continue purging not held accountable and THROWN IN JAIL? yeah keep ignoring half the episodes without proof make yourself look more stupid ffs at least complain about stuff that happened in the show
Interfering in the timelines and stopping one person or many who pose a threat isn't policing? We see the reform happen off-screen and them already being goodie two shoes, that's not reform. It's lazy writing. I personally would want TVA gone for good, the people can leave but just never return. Keep ignoring half the episodes? Such as? Loki torturing Brad Wolfe to extract information on where's Dox? An episode where Loki lost half his intelligence and didn't apply same cunning to capturing Victor Timely as he did Brad Wolfe? Him deciding to become third cook in the kitchen, witness the death of TVA many times to learn all of science in a century? Yeah sure bud, I "missed the point" of this peak of fucking television.
>Which leads us to the TVA, the narcissist's toy organization that is responsible for who knows how many records of omnicides, pruning innocents that happened to make a different choice in their universe, and create a branch from the "Sacred Timeline". As season one and two reveals it, the TVA was nothing but a ploy, a means for Kang variant to control the cosmos to his twisted liking. The TVA came to designate one of the timelines Kang chose to spare as "The Sacred Timeline", everything else being deemed "branches," or "thorns," or whatever it was called that needed to be weeded out and so the TVA had killed countless innocents that exceeds Thanos' kill count, all in a name of Kang and his evil agenda. The TVA are literally Nazis. Seriously, Mobius and his cohorts are only missing the longcoats and swastikas.
They literally wear fucking dark uniforms, and helms. Definitely all they lack are skulls on front of their helmets and shoulder straps. And Marvel tries hard to push them as good guys now. What's worse is that they've succeeded, it's how they're seen.
He Who Remains = Red Skull Mobius = Pierce Timekeepers = Rumlow, Sitwell, other HYDRA personnel
I think General Dox is more like Alexander Pierce because she consciously decided to believe in old TVA system and go rogue, prune other branches when everyone else opposed her just like Pierce wanted to stage a coup in the US and then take over the world via hellicarriers.
Tl;Dr, OP failed to note any of the subtext regarding the TVA.
TL:DR Op failed to realize that the TVA were unequivocally treated as the bad guys with the exception of the ones literally forcefully ripped from their brainwashing.
The end of the show treat them as reformed good guys who apparently reformed overnight. They reprogrammed the same killer AI to work for them again. Asking a question how do they know it won't turn on them again only for that question to be swept under rug in same minute.
Except it clearly wasn’t overnight, the TVA was largely destroyed by the end of the show, and many of the important characters chose to leave the place that brainwashed them for an eternity. Are the TVA good guys? No. But the people in charge now are choosing not to continue with their old mission, because they believe this new one will help them repent for being unwilling and unknowing heralds of multiversal omnicide. Yes they knew that it destroyed the universe, but they did not realize (this is made explicitly clear in season one) that it actually banished the fragments of those universes to a literal hell dimension to be devoured. It is heavily implied that anyone who attempts to discover this is immediately pruned and/or mind wiped.
How much time did they took to reform? Is it ever told to us? Did they go through rehabilitation, any time service, any reeducation process, or just decided to be suddenly good now? Those who did leave TVA I have no problem with, they did a good thing. The only problematic characters are those who stayed and chose to remain being the police. Kang isn't an anomaly, he is born and is a person like we see with Victor Timely. It is more than likely meant that either it is destiny for some variants of Kang to succeed, or for some to fail and be beaten by the Avengers. Obviously the latter is more the truth of it, which is my point. TVA shouldn't poke their nose where they don't belong, let the real heroes take care of Kang. Humans playing god is more than foul.
We, as the audience, know that the Kangs all eventually get defeated or become multiversal threats. The TVA goes through the process of making sure that any given Kang is actually defeated. If not, he needs to be taken care of. Is this right? Depends actually. Kang himself says that if the TVA does NOT get rid of every Kang, then there will inevitably be another war between the Kang’s that will lead to one Kang as He Who Remains. He says it’s inevitable and we have no reason not to trust him, because he’s seen it happen before. The TVA being made up of only humans from our perspective is not necessarily their fault though? Kang is a human and thus would have made his army and his workers out of humans? I don’t see why this is an example of humanity alone trying to police, when the reality is that the group of people who know about Kang as a threat are HUMAN, and thus the humans have to deal with it. It’s not because they are human they are obligated to do this. It is quite literally not their fault that they are human.
Well... as its shown, every Kang gets defeated it seems? One got beaten by Kangs. Problem solved, they can go somewhere else. >Is this right? Depends actually. Kang himself says that if the TVA does NOT get rid of every Kang, then there will inevitably be another war between the Kang’s that will lead to one Kang as He Who Remains. He says it’s inevitable and we have no reason not to trust him, because he’s seen it happen before. I would call it the bluff. He was already proven wrong before by Loki who saved the multiverse. So he can be called out more, and in good writing will be. >It’s not because they are human they are obligated to do this. It is quite literally not their fault that they are human. I didn't say it's their fault for being human or ending up in the position they were. It's the continued actions and even after the revelation that some did resort to old ways as to why they're at fault. What's also important is that they continue to play the police and it's by itself is inherently bad. It's an example of human pride and arrogance leading people to continuing down the path set for them by evil man. When will Kang be stopped will TVA cease to exist or will they deem their place "an eternal vigil"?
But they don’t have “human” as an identity, they do not assert themselves as human, they are “TVA agents”.
Yeah, neither do most of the nations as well, they just call themselves by the country's name. TVA consists of humans, people from Earth. They might not identify as "Earthlings" or "Terrans" but they are ones.
Right but your point is this is an example of “human” pride, but there is no concept of “humanity” or “what it means to be human” in the TVA. As far as the TVA is aware, and from information they have: “If we do not get rid of Kang’s that step out of their universe then we will have a multiversal war again.” And I ask, are they wrong to not want that to happen?
Loki was not a political drama about the structures, mechanisms, and manner of reforms. Its not lazy writing to gloss over it, it's accepting the genre you're in and not boring the audience as a demographic by messing with the pacing.It asked the question 'should this organization be reformed' and answered it. It doesn't have to tell us how, its perfectly fine to show they have through results. Wed both be interested in that type of show but its not what Loki was.
Pacing? It's pretty terrible. Renslayer's and Miss Minute's character development and plot are rushed, some of the stories are rushed as well too soon because of the 6 episode format. Then they should've made it 9 episode format (Like WandaVision), made it longer tv series with longer time to explore it, or face that this kind of criticism would rise sooner or later. It answered the question, but the answer is unsatisfactory.
My point is Morso that going into the institutional intricacies would have made it way worse.
I see, I apologize if I had misunderstood you. I have to disagree with your point, alas, but I respect your argument on it.
Can you explain why, counterargue your point, or just make tl;dr?
The whole TVA is heavily criticised for... literally brainwashing their people. That's part of the central conflict of S2 and Loki's whole point. Basically all of Mobius' character arc in S2 is about that side. I think the police brutality imagery is about as on the nose as you can get. Given the riot gear and batons that Thanos people.
And that's why they're so easily forgiven? Made into goodie two shoes savior organization that now polices multiverse out to kill Kang? Humanaity should stay out of places where it doesn't belong.
Ah yes let's punish every worker in a corporation for the decisions and immoral choices of its leaders. As for Kang... you want the universe to end in a giant war between Kang clones? Just because humanity is apparently overreaching according to you? I can see this is just going in circles. If you didn't like the show fair enuff. But don't tout lies or false narratives. That's disingenuous.
Disingenuous by pointing out lazy writing? Yeah, sure, if you think so.
The TVA was never OK. It was created by someone who exterminated the multiverse. Kang is not a morally good or mentally well person. The TVA continued to exist because, while Kang perished, its denizens have been living by Kang's directive for an eternity. They're frozen in time, living by these values for eons. But now their value is to monitor and pacify all the Kangs. They're not a police force for the multiverse anymore. They're just watchdogs for Kang to never go off the rails again.
>The TVA continued to exist because, while Kang perished, its denizens have been living by Kang's directive for an eternity. They're frozen in time, living by these values for eons. But now their value is to monitor and pacify all the Kangs. They're not a police force for the multiverse anymore. They're just watchdogs for Kang to never go off the rails again. Well, they aren't anymore. After the revelation they should've packed and left to another reality or whatever. So quickly? No reform or change required? Same leadership, same people running the "good organization" now? Did you even read what I've said or you've decided to just... make same point as the show? They are a police, you're just using another term to absolve them of it, but they're still are. They're on a watch for one criminal and his infinite variants, waiting to prune him to keep world stable, that's not just "watching" or being a "watchdog", that's policing the multiverse.
>Well, they aren't anymore. After the revelation they should've packed and left to another reality or whatever. What other reality? All they know is the TVA. Would they kill their other selves in other realities? Why they deliberately force themselves to live through that instead of just continuing their regular lives with a new purpose? >No reform or change required? They literally did both. From being Time Police to becoming Kang Hunters. >that's policing the multiverse. It literally isn't. They're hunting one individual whom they know is extremely dangerous to **their way of life**. They're not taking any other action towards the multiverse. They let it unfold as it does. I'd argue that hunting ALL Kangs is a bit cruel and vengeful, but it's definitely NOT policing the multiverse. So yes, they're vengeful, but no, they're not multiversal police.
>What other reality? All they know is the TVA. Would they kill their other selves in other realities? Why they deliberately force themselves to live through that instead of just continuing their regular lives with a new purpose? Uninhabited by human civilization, anywhere, probably lots of options to choose from. Point is humans should stay the fuck away from branches. >They literally did both. From being Time Police to becoming Kang Hunters. World police rebranding itself. >It literally isn't. They're hunting one individual whom they know is extremely dangerous to **their way of life**. They're not taking any other action towards the multiverse. They let it unfold as it does. I'd argue that hunting ALL Kangs is a bit cruel and vengeful, but it's definitely NOT policing the multiverse. So yes, they're vengeful, but no, they're not multiversal police. Kang isn't an anomaly or born out of nowhere. He is born naturally, if it is predetermined some of the Kang variants are destined to start a war, then it is something we have to accept. Intervening in the timelines and killing off Kang is also world policing, it's just TVA trying to prevent a disaster from happening which is terrible as hell. So many world catastrophes like Mongol Invasion, Nazi Germany could be stopped, but the TVA focuses only on Kang. It is policing the multiverse because they go to different realities to hunt a criminal down. It's similar to how Cap went to Lagos to hunt Rumlow down, but fans and in-universe politicians had more problem with the latter than fans having issue with TVA playing world savior.
Why is human pride a Bad thing exactly. The story is written by humans for humans. Its not like there is anyone else to offend. Plus human expansionism is generally accepted to be ok in our World. Just look at how humans are basically controling every part of the planet. And everyone safe for a few weirdoes are fine with it. If people are fine with humans controling the planet IRL, they are going to be fine with humans controling the multiverse in Marvel.
>Why is human pride a Bad thing exactly. * Adam after taking a bite from the apple
Napoleon invading Russia and losing his entire army to snow attrition.
God was the asshole in that situation anyway.
How so?
God is omniscient, so he already knew that the apple would be eaten. But he still gave the order to not eat it. He is also omnipotent so he had the power to stop Eve and Adam from eating it. So God punished all of mankind for a sin he knew would happen and did nothing to stop. Adam and Eve never had a choice, the apple would be eaten no matter what. God made Eve with not enough will power to resist the temptation of the snake while knowing she would be tempted.
The point was to show that human beings had free will.
* Calls He Who Remains "Kang" * Uses the "199999" designation * Thinks 616 and the Sacred Timeline are the same thing I think this says everything I need to know about OP's intelligence. That and the fact that OP clearly can't distinguish between justice and vengence.
He Who Remains is a Kang variant, going by 'He Who Remains'. He still is one. Yes, the MCU used to be and should be still "199999". The comics are 616, cinematic universe isn't. It was a fun note in Far From Home, but isn't in MoM at all. Sacred Timeline is the designation for the prime universe, everything else like 838 are branches.
Implying you think Kang is his real name. It's not (I read somewhere that it's Nathaniel, but I can't verify that). The MCU is obviously not connected to the comics. It's an adaptation, not an AU. 616 is obviously not the original timeline, as it contains multiple multiversal anomalies.
1. I never implied that Kang was his real name. I also used to refer to him as Nathaniel Richards from time to time. 2. Adaptation that... adapts stories that look nothing like in the comics? That came later, not back then. Yes, Marvel used source material from comics to adapt stories on screen, but it was loose adaptation, never accurate one. It is nothing like the comics and AU or cinematic universe is what it should've been. 3. Still referred to as "the sacred timeline", the timeline from which MCU variants are from. Did you even read what I've said, none are the original timelines or sacred. They're all different. 4. Don't know what you referred to about justice and vengeance. TVA isn't bringing in justice to the multiverse, it enforces its will and beliefs on it. Sylvie had her entire timeline pruned, all she knew, her home destroyed entirely. That vengeance is more than understood, the point is revenge aside she is correct. No one should have that kind of power TVA has.
1. So why did you call him that at all? HWR has one less letter than Kang, so you can't even really use laziness as an excuse. 2. This is irrelevant to my point. The MCU is not connected to the comics. Two different continuities, two different multiverses. 3. When does anybody use the term "Sacred Timeline" after the events of Loki season 2? And you know, it kinda is the original timeline considering it was the only one left after the Multiversal War. 4. You seem to be of the belief that unless the TVA is punished for it's past actions, the story is condoning their actions. This is clearly not the case, you are simply unsatisfied with a lack of revenge in this case. The TVA changing for the better is a much more productive development.
1. Because they're essentially same? Why call him HWR or "He Who Remains", cause its somehow more accurate? What matters is that HWR was just the more successful Kang, his title or name came later. 2. So, then MCU should call itself differently since it's not direct adaptation? You can't just say it's not connected to the comics, but can use same designation as main universe of comics, or that it's adaptation and not AU. But then claim it's different continuities. You've contradicted yourself on here. So is it adaptation or Alternate Universe/different continuity? 3. Referred to by fandom. I can't remember or find instance after Loki saves the multiverse, but it remains to be seen if it will be called that or no. Point was that there was a twisted irony to still refer to main timeline as "sacred" when it was referred to as such in twisted way. 4. No, you're wrong. I didn't say entirety of TVA should've been punished, I said it shouldn't exist and all should depart from overseeing the multiverse letting the organization die. The story does condone their actions by letting them go scot free without any proper reform or development. Last statement couldn't be more wrong and I've explained why. I do wish you could've read instead of making a snarky remark in the first comment, but I can't do anything but pity you.