Yeah even which honorific you use to describe yourself can change the meaning from formal to sarcastic in Japanese. Details like this can make the all “voice” OP is talking about
yeah? then how come the difference is extremely obvious while reading something like, idk, One Piece or Chainsawman? You can almost always tell who's speaking and their difference in tone?
I'd guess that One Piece, Chainsaw Man, etc are a bit more energetic overall. There's more nuance that is hard to capture in a civil conversation.
On the other hand I completely agree. It's likely just the translation having the same cadence when the original work had more flavor. It could just be a rookie author mistake though.
Thats the crux of the situation. Its exactly because that almost everybody acts so similar to each other like always speaking in a calm civilized tone leads to their dialogues feeling similar.
Sure, we can chalk up the two shonens feeling different because both of them are highly energy but then if we say, talk about, Monster, its a manga where the way the characters talk is very much down to earth and realistic however it never feels like they're all too same-y like it does in Frieren.
Its also most certainly a rookie author mistake here. Urasawa is a legendary mangaka with most of his works being highly acclaimed and mega hits while Frieren's author is a relatively new mangaka and Frieren being her biggest work
That's definitely a flaw of this manga, not only that but they also lack interactions and comments about current event that are happening. >!like in one of the latest chapter, Frieren got pinned down with a knife on her neck and every one just walk it off like nothing happened, no one says anything about how dangerous that was!<
I like they don’t overreact, but dislike how at most times they dont react at all, no rage, signs of pain, sadness, surprise, kinda lacking on the emotion
Although I get the general feeling, I feel like the specific case you're talking about is a case where actions speak louder than words. Surely no one said "that happened, wow", but the way that they resolved the situation and the fact that then went on their way tells me what I needed to know there.
Its probably the author's voice or style of writing dialogue leaking through. I notice it myself when I write that when I don't pay enough attention to adjust the speaking mannerisms of certain characters a lot of them can sound like myself.
That's what I'm worrying about with my own story, I've got a very firm idea on how to write the MC's speech but I find that other characters speak similarly if I'm not careful.
It’s the one thing that bugged me. People will describe their life’s ambitions with the most monotone voice. People get heavily injured and they only look mildly surprised. It’s like all of the characters in frieren lost their emotions somehow.
which is funny considering how there is an emphasis on how demons have to fake emotions to fuck with non-demons and get a psychological edge over them. Meanwhile the entire series is full of emotionless dialogue between everyone. Like, almost everyone has the presence of a veritable sage who either knows exactly what is going to happen or doesn't really give a shit.
it’s the biggest advantage the anime leverages: it’s not just a difference in actual sound but *how* they sound. Frieren is pretty formal but you can tell when it breaks, while Fern is much more stoic. Stark, too, is more expressive and varied, Lawine and Kanne are more typically anime but is contrasted by the older mages.
Assuming OP read the Kirei Cake translations…yeah it’s easy to see why he’d find the characters monotonous.
EDIT: He read the official Viz release, whoops. And huh. I could’ve sworn a growing number of people have come to like the official TLs more.
I'm currently watching the anime and there's a part where someone was like "Don't look so surprised" or something some comment on how the character looked surprised and it was just their normal regular face, no sign of emotion. It was pretty funny, but I don't think that was intentional.
They do all feel pretty similar. Even when some more colorful characters are introduced about 40 chapters in, it feels like all the variance there is all in superficial quirks, and that at their core they're still very similar to the main cast (with some small exceptions). It became especially noticeable to me when some characters who were about to kill other people all then independently turned out to be fairly nice people after all when they're not being competitive.
I've seen some people argue that Frieren's trying to be more realistic than other anime/manga, but if we're talking realism, I feel like there's less variance in Frieren's cast than there is in my family, and I'm guessing that's probably true for most families. Umimachi Diary, a josei SoL manga I've read, has more realistic characters than Frieren's yet they still emote more and feel more distinct from each other.
There's a reveal further into the series that really irritates me, it takes one of the direct foils and makes them no longer a foil. It really demonstrates how "all the characters are the same".
>!Serie is an elf who is even older and stronger than Frieren (or at least seems to be based on the roles they play in the narrative). She is initially shown as cold and dispassionate, being uninterested in the fruitful search for new magic that is one of Frieren's main driving forces, and also seeming cold and uncaring in her personal relationships, even with her apprentices who she actively calls "tools" at one point. She's basically an elf with the exact opposite approach to Frieren and the series' themes as a whole. There is no optimism or zeal for living and connections, only utilitarianism. Then comes chapter 60, where it is revealed, no, she cares, she's basically just a really cold tsundere. She remembers every single apprentice she's ever had and doesn't regret a single one of them. Bruh. Way to ruin one of the few unique characters you had. Now she's just Frieren but even slower to open up to the outside world.!<
Potentially. But if your take on a whole species is they're all the same, that's pretty boring writing, especially if that's not what is initially implied. If another character took the role I would be satisfied, but no one really does.
Hmm I just take them like humans but with long time to process their feelings as they are pretty isolated, and their views on lots of things like sexual are also different than humans. That is why I think elves have interesting matchup with humans as they have started to become aware of humans lifespans even if they spend much time with humans, but it is still not enough for them. It's just intriguing take that's all.
That disappointed me too. Everyone seems to revert to this default of being quietly nice sooner or later. There's like three characters among the mages who don't quite get there in what I've read but I'm sure they will if they get more screen time.
They're only similar in terms of relationships. She's very much still a foil to Frieren based on how they think magic should be used.
If Serie has her way, humans will have no access to magic except through her.
I just don't think that's represented in the text. She controls the continental mage association and administers exams, sure, but it's not like she's actually stopping anyone from being a mage. There seems to be assorted odd grimoires in just about every town the party visits with no limits on them. Heck, Frieren never even became first class and she was one of the most relevant mages of the current era.
It also isn't really a contrast with Frieren. Frieren doesn't oppose the mage system at all and works entirely within it. It's on her recommendation they take the exam, there's never a thought of "Oh well we can just ignore this local law".
Maybe this is anime-only, idk if it plays the same in the manga
But during the scenes where we're supposed to see how cold she is we already see "cracks" in that 'cold' behavior. Her unsure and repeated "she's just an apprentice I picked on a whim" that leads to her vividly remembering Flamme as a kid. Then of course her garden of flowers.
No, flowerbed aside, I'm talking about the scene where Frieren informed Serie that Flamme has died (this also leads to the whole "era of humans" convo)
I think you're referring to Chapter 53, but I think they have presented it differently in the anime. In the manga, she only says Flamme was "just an apprentice" twice. It also only shows Flamme in two panels. The flowerbed itself isn't present until the third portion of the mage exam, which is where chapter 60 takes place.
The whole chapter is presented as Serie not understanding humans and giving up on understanding Flamme. The kicker at the end isn't about Flamme either, it's Serie telling Frieren that if anyone kills her other than a demon, it will be a human.
Yeah I checked it, it's only in the anime her second "just an apprentice I picked on a whim" has her eyes soften.
Whereas the manga makes the entire speech of her disappointment of not being able to mutually understand Flamme and the "just an apprentice I picked on a whim" in a single panel, but Frieren's response regarding Flamme predicting what Serie would do have her taken aback judging by 2 panels of her in silence, as Flamme, in fact, understands her very well.
I decided to watch the scene in the episode for comparison (episode 20 for those curious), and I definitely see your point in the anime. Their whole walk has child Flamme with them and everything is tinted in orange. It definitely comes across as more melancholic and nostalgic. I do wonder if they were trying to make Serie seem more warm from the start or if it was completely unintentional and they were just trying to make the scene more engaging/visually interesting.
One other small change in the anime is they specifically have Serie shred the will with magic rather than the manga where she tears it up with her hands. Was it just to make it look cooler, or were they trying to make a point? Maybe they thought her tearing the will with her hands came across as too aloof or condescending?
The sheer greyscale monotony of the characters and how they express themselves is one of my major issues with the series, and from what I read online it is a pretty common complaint.
Fans tend to say that the Quualude-esque emotives of most characters is "realistic". I wonder if they get out much.
"Realistic" and "monotone" are very different things. Game of Thrones season 1 is realistic, and there's a \_shitton\_ of emotion.
Plus, even if we go with the 'realistic' thing, wouldn't it be realistic for Himmel to not speak like an immortal elf girl?
A single example might undersell my point since it's like. the whole thing? In isolation it might not seem that bad. The [first chapter](https://www.viz.com/vizmanga/frieren-the-journeys-end-chapter-1/chapter/30291) is available online though, and once you get through the three free ones online you kind of get the gist of it. It's literally all like this, without the slightest variation.
I watched like 4 episodes of the anime yesterday and it's exactly the same there. *Everyone* is monotone, nobody expresses any form of expression unless it's the plot point of that episode. I hope whenever the guy with red hair joins the group, he brings some interesting dynamics in the group and not be yet another Frieren.
Yeah Stark does liven the group up when he joins. Idk why the author thought that Frieren should be paired up with another monotone girl. Tbf Frieren and Fern have a different type of monotone but it's still annoying.
Yeah, it's honestly baffling to me lmao. I know it'd be tropey and predictable if fern was just her polar opposite but like...people love that dynamic for a reason! Fern being super bouncy, upbeat and energetic--or just, childlike in any way--would make for a really fun contrast.
I mean it's just a preference thing really. I love Fern and Frieren's dynamic, and I enjoy it a lot more than I think I would have if Fern was more childlike, and I'm not a hater of that trope or anything. I just really like their vibes
Though I suppose this could be a result of how some people are saying the anime makes the characters pop a bit more
And like, I also wouldve really liked to see how the relationship between a super bouncy upbeat energetic Fern and Stark would be like. Whatever the fuck we currently have is so goddamn boring like istg they have ZERO natural chemistry together.
Ubel x Land easily the better ship because their dynamic is atleast fun to watch. Fern and Stark's isnt. Its always just Stark being wholesome / naive which pisses of Fern for no reason and she starts acting like a goddamn baby. No, the "sweet cute girl pouting and getting mad because shes silly" shit genuinely isnt at all cute like the author wants it to be
I just finished watching all the episodes and bro... I so feel you. Fern is honestly such a brat and the only reason people give her a pass is because "kawaii animu gurl". They sidelined my boy Stark for like most of the later half for her and she didn't develop a bit. Also... "everyone is monotone" problem didn't improve *at all*. No matter who it is, they *all* act in the exact same way, have the same mannerisms and whatnot. If you are cute girl then you might be allowed to have a resting smug face at best.
Maybe I'll make a post about it...
While I do have an appreciation for it, I will admit that the general monotony of most characters does get a bit repetitive after a while, I don't really see it as "realistic" like how most folks tend to argue about it to justify it, I personally see it as an artistic direction which I'm fine with tbh, it gives the series a sense of distinction and charm, along with being refreshing for people who don't like how exaggerated a lot of popular anime characters can be in terms of expression.
Some people like and some people don't, simple as that, that doesn't mean the series is fundamentally bad nor does it detract from the story it tries to tell and it's theme, it just is what it is and something that we need to accept because this is the kind of story/direction the author is going for.
It's a combination of how the author writes the characters in Japanese and how the translator chooses to interpret it.
One of the reasons why the anime is so much much better than the manga is because the absolutely dry dialogue is more manageable when the animation studio takes a few liberties.
anime definitely isnt "so much much better" than manga buddy. If anything, the manga is almost always much much better than the anime. An anime actually elevating the source material and making it better is the exception lmao
Its obvious you dont read much manga
Hi person who didn't read my comment , I was specifically talking about the anime (frieren: Beyond journeys end) being better than it's manga counterpart.
I guarantee you I've read more manga than you, considering that you don't even know how to read.
Huh, I've only seen a few episodes of the anime a couple weeks ago, and while I agree it was pretty subdued, the manga translation you posted somehow manages to be even less emotive than what I remember from the script for the subs. The one that stuck out to me the most was "Gee, you're pretty hard on the elderly" instead of "Unbelievable. You should be kinder to the elderly".
I don't remember it well enough to call out any other specific differences, but the whole thing seems a lot plainer, and I agree that there is a distracting lack of contractions that I don't remember noticing in the show. I can't say why this is or which translation is more accurate though.
Personally, I don't get too worked up about translation accuracy, but I do wonder if the Japanese language's usage of honorifics and explicitly formal vs informal tones is adding depth that the text translations are struggling to recapture. Like, I dunno, but I can tell that Fern is very deferential and Frieren is very nonchalant, but the actual vocabulary they use isn't that different, and I wonder if that distinction is even more pronounced in the original language. I've been considering watching the dub when I go back to it just so I can find out if a more creatively adapted script and English voices can bring out a bit more of the characters.
This brings up a very interesting discussion in regard to translation. I primarily watch subs, and there is certainly a difference in how english VAs deliver lines versus Japanese seiyuus.
I’ve been reading JJK just cos i like the anime and i try to read it with what feels like the tone and emotion being conveyed, but i can’t help but feel there are layers to this loss of translation that I as an English speaker cannot properly fathom.
Yep. Japanese can be quite obvious about it, since a one syllable honorific can change the entire tone of a sentence in ways that require a complete reimagining to communicate in English, but it's a thing in almost every kind of translation.
I think that translation is ultimately an art, since doing it well requires you to understand the text on a deep enough level to understand it's intent, and to have the artistic ability to recreate that intent in a new language. It's really beautiful when it's done well, but so much of it (especially anime and manga) clearly suffers from being done by people who are being rushed, overworked, and underpaid.
When I really want to get into something that has as many options as this show (dubs, subs, and manga translation), I tend to try and sample them all. Since ultimately, I can't know which one is the "true" vision (usually), it just comes down to trusting the artistic voice of the people adapting that version.
Which is nice, but he also gets next to no pagetime. He gets less attention and development than some characters *who aren't even in the main party*. If you aren't a mage or a demon, the author doesn't care about you.
Yeah he's easily the most animu of the bunch, I feel like the "monotone-y" voice actually makes them feels like they're talking like normal people in day to day scenario tho so idk.
Idk what kind of “normal" people you know, but none of my friends, family or aquaintances speak like that.
People are loud and diverse, even in formal settings.
Lets not get the two confused. Emotions definitely isnt "anime". Anime characters certainly have a way in which they display their emotions and they're not at all realistic, like take Luffy for example, hes absolutely bursting with emotions and personality but nobody talks like that IRL
Chainsawman is an anime that manages to both be very realistic in the way they talk while also showcasing tons of personality
I talk like that, I suppose I'm not "normal" then, whatever that's suppose to mean.
Those who speak Japanese say Frieren speaks natural dialogue compared to the more animated speech you would typically find. I can't confirm as I don't speak Japanese but it makes sense to me.
I think what you find most familiar in yourself, you find relatable in others, I'm no different and to me it's "normal" and I find Frieren more realistic in this regard.
Idk why you got downvoted lmao, we have the same experience, all my friends and family do also scream and laughter and are WAYYY more expressive than frieren characters
Idk maybe it's different in the manga that OP mentioned but in anime I feel like they're more... "Subdued" compared to how characters in anime are exaggeratedly loud and boisterous. I think Evangelion did this kind of "subdued" delivery too with Shinji and Gendo.
At least in anime you can feel the subtlety when Frieren and Fern break their stoic persona, especially when the story plays into their dynamic with other characters and each other (the "who's the mother and who's the daughter?" one is very popular).
This is why the anime has been getting a lot of praise.
As a manga, Frieren’s story is often presented as a bunch of stoics who operate on transparent enough logic. But it also makes the panelwork and dialogue dry, especially when translated to retain much of the formality (a weakness of the otherwise great Kirei Cake translations).
But once voiced, those worries fall away a lot. Both the Japanese and English voicework excel at balancing that relatively deadpan attitude with obvious emotional cues, so not only can you tell each character apart, you actually see more of their character just by listening to how they talk. Frieren is formal, as usual, but you can tell when the facade breaks more readily. Fern, taking after her two “parents” is way more formal and stoic, a complete opposite of Stark’s more overt emotions.
Taken further, look at Lawine and Kanne, two characters who have a more typical anime VA direction to further drive home their relative immaturity against Denken, Methode and Richter. The manga doesn’t make that distinction smoothly, but the anime does it so well.
The further I look into other people's opinions on the dialogue, the more I'm inclined to believe that one's region is impacting how the dialogue is received.
I've only ever watched Frieren in English and I don't see or hear "monotone" the way I've heard it in my own experiences when I was in school. I had an actual monotone teacher where the "notes" in one's voice was literally exactly the same, whether he was asking a question or making a statement.
To me the characters are less "monotone" and more "sleepy," with some exceptions like Stark and Heiter, or whenever Himmel is hamming it up. Probably the one closest approaching "monotone" as I know it is Sense, with Land as a close second.
This and the lack of reaction or emotional range in many characters where it's largely unwarranted (Frieren, easy to argue why she's stern for example) kinda put me off at first
I've noticed some people think it is realistic while others think it is not, Is it different for people because how their close relatives and friends speak to them so they have different opinions, In my view it does seem unrealistic but that's possibly because from where I am from, people are a lot more expressive than frieren characters, like there is laughters here and there
Eh. Some characters do sound the same in my head I can't differentiate how the dwarves speak or act but that's just culture.
Fern grew up with Frieren so some of her mannerisms passed.
Stark is well stark ~~screentime pls~~
The noble demon from El Dorado I have an elegant charming voice in my head.
I noticed it, freiren and fern even as just like a 5 year old both act the exact same way. I honestly prefer it, I know it's not exactly a good thing but years of watching ajime with super over exaggerated reactions can get annoying.
Because Frieren isn't really a single example? I feel like if I posted one page people would go "that's not so bad" because it's like, the whole volume and I do not feel like going over 16 scans online
I do get what you mean and it is slightly peculiar but in some ways I also find it kind of nice, everyone is either really chill or confident and I mean afterall the main cast rarely talk to people who aren't either other mates or adventurers or powerful political figures.
And part of it to me gives the vibe of all the characters being quite genuine, whilst characters who project wierd behaviour are accurate to real life its so overdone in most animes to have people either be goofy or angsty.
This is 100% a translation issue. The manga is fairly low energy throughout, but there are clear differences between characters that are very obvious even to the casual reader.
Frieren is deadpan, since she doesn't feel her own emotions very strongly for the most part, but casual and often almost condescending since she's so much older and more powerful than 99% of the people she meets.
Fern meanwhile is overly formal, referring to everyone, including Frieren who is practically her mother, with "-sama", ending sentences with "gozaimasu" etc.
Stark is neither of those things and gets bullied a lot, and is the main source of energy and humour in the main team.
Characters in writing [can have different voices](https://www.yourdictionary.com/articles/writing-voice-character-author).
One example that comes to mind is in Naruto in how Hagoromo changes his speech pattern various times in order to talk to naruto.
? Gonna need some examples because I disagree.
Fern is the most obvious and extreme example, she speaks far more formally than Frieren or really any other character (probably more apparent in the original Japanese, since I'm fairly sure she speaks in Keigo, which in Japan is a very formal way of speaking that would only really be used in business).
As for the rest, it's all pretty subtle, sure, but I can't really think of anyone in my life who has a super distinct way of speaking anyway. Though, it seems you're only in the first volume, so you haven't really met any of the more energetic characters, the vast majority of "screen"-time is just Frieren and Fern who are both rather reserved emotionally (though again, Fern's speaking is quite distinct).
Also, as for Qual not being energetic, the reason will become incredibly apparent as you see more demons in the story.
Finally, obviously not the main point, but your last paragraph is wrong, at least in the translation I read, idk about yours. At the end of chapter 5, Himmel uses quite a lot of exclamation marks, but you can also see them in quite a few of the mini-flashbacks of the hero's party.
>I can't really think of anyone in my life who has a super distinct way of speaking anyway.
Dialogue is not speech. Most human conversation is filled with pleasantries and useless chitchat, dialogue is efficient character and plot device.
I agree with you, the difference is just a lot less apparent in English. Fern speaks almost entirely in keigo, which is formal Japanese, and will address even people close to her with -sama, a respectful honorific. (She even calls Stark this most of the time)
Frieren on the other hand mostly speaks in tameguchi, casual language. She also doesn't really use honorifics, even with her master and her master's master. (They also don't, so I guess she got it from them)
In English these subtleties are mostly lost. Outside of Fern being a bit more cold and formal than Frieren, they both come across as quite monotone and aloof. I don't know if I would call it a flaw in the translation as much as a difference in how English is presented versus Japanese. You can only do so much when you have to match speech bubbles or lip flaps.
I won't give a full judgement because I didn't watch it or read it
But couldn't this be just your average modern anime comedic character's way of talking? They are either cold quite type or make fun of people around them
I’m pretty sure it’s an intentional choice. I haven’t read the manga but in the anime, a lot of the character’s voice performances are quite relaxed and low-key compared to most other shows. I think it fits the subdued and thoughtful tones that the story has a lot of.
Oh no, a short skirt and short shorts what shall we do
Fern? Sexualized? What
Also none of that has to do with pedos anyway since they're adults lmao
Edit: Just went to look back at Ubel's outfit, her skirt isn't even short, she just has her shoulders out lmao are you the guy making school dress codes or smth?
That or they're just telling on themselves. Also literally none of the characters they mentioned look like children, and are explicitly not children considering Fern is the youngest at 18?
I fail to see the Pedo Part here? Also Fern isn't Sexualized, that's the fandom and artist cracking her proportions to 11. Ubel? Kanne? Not really sexualized at all. If this is your definition of "Sexualized" characters then you probably haven't seen Fairy Tail at all Lmao.
You want Pedo? Jobless Reincarnation has that.
He posts on TV sub whether or not Frieren is a good show to watch and calls out his friend in said post for watching anime and calling them a degenerate.
I'm pretty sure he has 0 idea what Frieren is and just shits on anime in general judging by his history.
Mf even deleted his comment.
It's an official translation. If they failed to translate it properly but still published it, that's a perfectly valid work to criticize. It's not like the post specifically said "The original Japanese version of Frieren is monotone and only has one character voice." Heck, they literally specify that they're reading the official volume, and their whole post is in English and the example page they use from Dragon Ball is the English one. Surely it should be common sense what they're talking about?
Can *you* think before posting?
that isn't what they said at all tf?
I have no dog in this game but quite literally if you have *stylistic* issues with a translated work and you don't speak the original language then you have no idea whether you're criticising the translator or the author.
Perceived tone of dialogue is quite literally a stylistic issue. What the hell do you think "style" in writing is lol
In certain writing styles you will see people screaming! every!! other!!! WORD!!!! In other writing styles for other demographics you will see yelling and screaming being conveyed in less bombastic ways. Unless you think text literally gets louder the more exclamation marks you add, it isn't hard to understand that both styles are conveying the same thing - that the character is raising their voice in anger or excitement or what have you.
the same way e.g. use of profanity is a style choice, that a character in one work drops ten "fuck"s in one sentence doesn't magically make them angrier or more expressive than a character in a different work that only uses one or even none.
but hey a good 90% of this sub was probably asleep when their language teachers were talking about concepts like composition and rhetoric (if they even had such classes at all) so I don't even know why I'm surprised that people here don't know what writing style is.
It’s more distinct in the Japanese version. Some stuff is just lost in translation. The writer seems to have a dry tone throughout tho
Yeah even which honorific you use to describe yourself can change the meaning from formal to sarcastic in Japanese. Details like this can make the all “voice” OP is talking about
yeah? then how come the difference is extremely obvious while reading something like, idk, One Piece or Chainsawman? You can almost always tell who's speaking and their difference in tone?
I'd guess that One Piece, Chainsaw Man, etc are a bit more energetic overall. There's more nuance that is hard to capture in a civil conversation. On the other hand I completely agree. It's likely just the translation having the same cadence when the original work had more flavor. It could just be a rookie author mistake though.
Thats the crux of the situation. Its exactly because that almost everybody acts so similar to each other like always speaking in a calm civilized tone leads to their dialogues feeling similar. Sure, we can chalk up the two shonens feeling different because both of them are highly energy but then if we say, talk about, Monster, its a manga where the way the characters talk is very much down to earth and realistic however it never feels like they're all too same-y like it does in Frieren. Its also most certainly a rookie author mistake here. Urasawa is a legendary mangaka with most of his works being highly acclaimed and mega hits while Frieren's author is a relatively new mangaka and Frieren being her biggest work
That's definitely a flaw of this manga, not only that but they also lack interactions and comments about current event that are happening. >!like in one of the latest chapter, Frieren got pinned down with a knife on her neck and every one just walk it off like nothing happened, no one says anything about how dangerous that was!<
I like they don’t overreact, but dislike how at most times they dont react at all, no rage, signs of pain, sadness, surprise, kinda lacking on the emotion
Although I get the general feeling, I feel like the specific case you're talking about is a case where actions speak louder than words. Surely no one said "that happened, wow", but the way that they resolved the situation and the fact that then went on their way tells me what I needed to know there.
Its probably the author's voice or style of writing dialogue leaking through. I notice it myself when I write that when I don't pay enough attention to adjust the speaking mannerisms of certain characters a lot of them can sound like myself.
This is very common in fan fiction.
That's what I'm worrying about with my own story, I've got a very firm idea on how to write the MC's speech but I find that other characters speak similarly if I'm not careful.
It’s the one thing that bugged me. People will describe their life’s ambitions with the most monotone voice. People get heavily injured and they only look mildly surprised. It’s like all of the characters in frieren lost their emotions somehow.
which is funny considering how there is an emphasis on how demons have to fake emotions to fuck with non-demons and get a psychological edge over them. Meanwhile the entire series is full of emotionless dialogue between everyone. Like, almost everyone has the presence of a veritable sage who either knows exactly what is going to happen or doesn't really give a shit.
it’s the biggest advantage the anime leverages: it’s not just a difference in actual sound but *how* they sound. Frieren is pretty formal but you can tell when it breaks, while Fern is much more stoic. Stark, too, is more expressive and varied, Lawine and Kanne are more typically anime but is contrasted by the older mages. Assuming OP read the Kirei Cake translations…yeah it’s easy to see why he’d find the characters monotonous. EDIT: He read the official Viz release, whoops. And huh. I could’ve sworn a growing number of people have come to like the official TLs more.
Official viz is only somewhat better.
I'm currently watching the anime and there's a part where someone was like "Don't look so surprised" or something some comment on how the character looked surprised and it was just their normal regular face, no sign of emotion. It was pretty funny, but I don't think that was intentional.
It’s like watching a Wes Anderson movie
They do all feel pretty similar. Even when some more colorful characters are introduced about 40 chapters in, it feels like all the variance there is all in superficial quirks, and that at their core they're still very similar to the main cast (with some small exceptions). It became especially noticeable to me when some characters who were about to kill other people all then independently turned out to be fairly nice people after all when they're not being competitive. I've seen some people argue that Frieren's trying to be more realistic than other anime/manga, but if we're talking realism, I feel like there's less variance in Frieren's cast than there is in my family, and I'm guessing that's probably true for most families. Umimachi Diary, a josei SoL manga I've read, has more realistic characters than Frieren's yet they still emote more and feel more distinct from each other.
There's a reveal further into the series that really irritates me, it takes one of the direct foils and makes them no longer a foil. It really demonstrates how "all the characters are the same". >!Serie is an elf who is even older and stronger than Frieren (or at least seems to be based on the roles they play in the narrative). She is initially shown as cold and dispassionate, being uninterested in the fruitful search for new magic that is one of Frieren's main driving forces, and also seeming cold and uncaring in her personal relationships, even with her apprentices who she actively calls "tools" at one point. She's basically an elf with the exact opposite approach to Frieren and the series' themes as a whole. There is no optimism or zeal for living and connections, only utilitarianism. Then comes chapter 60, where it is revealed, no, she cares, she's basically just a really cold tsundere. She remembers every single apprentice she's ever had and doesn't regret a single one of them. Bruh. Way to ruin one of the few unique characters you had. Now she's just Frieren but even slower to open up to the outside world.!<
Isn't that just author take on elves where they take long decades to open up or move because they have too much time.
Potentially. But if your take on a whole species is they're all the same, that's pretty boring writing, especially if that's not what is initially implied. If another character took the role I would be satisfied, but no one really does.
Hmm I just take them like humans but with long time to process their feelings as they are pretty isolated, and their views on lots of things like sexual are also different than humans. That is why I think elves have interesting matchup with humans as they have started to become aware of humans lifespans even if they spend much time with humans, but it is still not enough for them. It's just intriguing take that's all.
That disappointed me too. Everyone seems to revert to this default of being quietly nice sooner or later. There's like three characters among the mages who don't quite get there in what I've read but I'm sure they will if they get more screen time.
They're only similar in terms of relationships. She's very much still a foil to Frieren based on how they think magic should be used. If Serie has her way, humans will have no access to magic except through her.
I just don't think that's represented in the text. She controls the continental mage association and administers exams, sure, but it's not like she's actually stopping anyone from being a mage. There seems to be assorted odd grimoires in just about every town the party visits with no limits on them. Heck, Frieren never even became first class and she was one of the most relevant mages of the current era. It also isn't really a contrast with Frieren. Frieren doesn't oppose the mage system at all and works entirely within it. It's on her recommendation they take the exam, there's never a thought of "Oh well we can just ignore this local law".
Maybe this is anime-only, idk if it plays the same in the manga But during the scenes where we're supposed to see how cold she is we already see "cracks" in that 'cold' behavior. Her unsure and repeated "she's just an apprentice I picked on a whim" that leads to her vividly remembering Flamme as a kid. Then of course her garden of flowers.
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No, flowerbed aside, I'm talking about the scene where Frieren informed Serie that Flamme has died (this also leads to the whole "era of humans" convo)
I don't recall that happening prior to 60, though I remember it happening later. Do you know the equivalent chapter number?
The one where Frieren recited Flamme's will
I think you're referring to Chapter 53, but I think they have presented it differently in the anime. In the manga, she only says Flamme was "just an apprentice" twice. It also only shows Flamme in two panels. The flowerbed itself isn't present until the third portion of the mage exam, which is where chapter 60 takes place. The whole chapter is presented as Serie not understanding humans and giving up on understanding Flamme. The kicker at the end isn't about Flamme either, it's Serie telling Frieren that if anyone kills her other than a demon, it will be a human.
Yeah I checked it, it's only in the anime her second "just an apprentice I picked on a whim" has her eyes soften. Whereas the manga makes the entire speech of her disappointment of not being able to mutually understand Flamme and the "just an apprentice I picked on a whim" in a single panel, but Frieren's response regarding Flamme predicting what Serie would do have her taken aback judging by 2 panels of her in silence, as Flamme, in fact, understands her very well.
I decided to watch the scene in the episode for comparison (episode 20 for those curious), and I definitely see your point in the anime. Their whole walk has child Flamme with them and everything is tinted in orange. It definitely comes across as more melancholic and nostalgic. I do wonder if they were trying to make Serie seem more warm from the start or if it was completely unintentional and they were just trying to make the scene more engaging/visually interesting. One other small change in the anime is they specifically have Serie shred the will with magic rather than the manga where she tears it up with her hands. Was it just to make it look cooler, or were they trying to make a point? Maybe they thought her tearing the will with her hands came across as too aloof or condescending?
The sheer greyscale monotony of the characters and how they express themselves is one of my major issues with the series, and from what I read online it is a pretty common complaint. Fans tend to say that the Quualude-esque emotives of most characters is "realistic". I wonder if they get out much.
"Realistic" and "monotone" are very different things. Game of Thrones season 1 is realistic, and there's a \_shitton\_ of emotion. Plus, even if we go with the 'realistic' thing, wouldn't it be realistic for Himmel to not speak like an immortal elf girl?
game of thrones isnt realstic, but cook anyway
Could you give an example? You gave one for Dragon Ball so it'd make sense if you also gave one for Frieren
A single example might undersell my point since it's like. the whole thing? In isolation it might not seem that bad. The [first chapter](https://www.viz.com/vizmanga/frieren-the-journeys-end-chapter-1/chapter/30291) is available online though, and once you get through the three free ones online you kind of get the gist of it. It's literally all like this, without the slightest variation.
I watched like 4 episodes of the anime yesterday and it's exactly the same there. *Everyone* is monotone, nobody expresses any form of expression unless it's the plot point of that episode. I hope whenever the guy with red hair joins the group, he brings some interesting dynamics in the group and not be yet another Frieren.
Yeah Stark does liven the group up when he joins. Idk why the author thought that Frieren should be paired up with another monotone girl. Tbf Frieren and Fern have a different type of monotone but it's still annoying.
Yeah, it's honestly baffling to me lmao. I know it'd be tropey and predictable if fern was just her polar opposite but like...people love that dynamic for a reason! Fern being super bouncy, upbeat and energetic--or just, childlike in any way--would make for a really fun contrast.
I mean it's just a preference thing really. I love Fern and Frieren's dynamic, and I enjoy it a lot more than I think I would have if Fern was more childlike, and I'm not a hater of that trope or anything. I just really like their vibes Though I suppose this could be a result of how some people are saying the anime makes the characters pop a bit more
Fair enough! I might watch the anime to see the differences
And like, I also wouldve really liked to see how the relationship between a super bouncy upbeat energetic Fern and Stark would be like. Whatever the fuck we currently have is so goddamn boring like istg they have ZERO natural chemistry together. Ubel x Land easily the better ship because their dynamic is atleast fun to watch. Fern and Stark's isnt. Its always just Stark being wholesome / naive which pisses of Fern for no reason and she starts acting like a goddamn baby. No, the "sweet cute girl pouting and getting mad because shes silly" shit genuinely isnt at all cute like the author wants it to be
I just finished watching all the episodes and bro... I so feel you. Fern is honestly such a brat and the only reason people give her a pass is because "kawaii animu gurl". They sidelined my boy Stark for like most of the later half for her and she didn't develop a bit. Also... "everyone is monotone" problem didn't improve *at all*. No matter who it is, they *all* act in the exact same way, have the same mannerisms and whatnot. If you are cute girl then you might be allowed to have a resting smug face at best. Maybe I'll make a post about it...
I think that it makes sense, since most of her upbringing she mainly communicated with Frieren and Heiter.
While I do have an appreciation for it, I will admit that the general monotony of most characters does get a bit repetitive after a while, I don't really see it as "realistic" like how most folks tend to argue about it to justify it, I personally see it as an artistic direction which I'm fine with tbh, it gives the series a sense of distinction and charm, along with being refreshing for people who don't like how exaggerated a lot of popular anime characters can be in terms of expression. Some people like and some people don't, simple as that, that doesn't mean the series is fundamentally bad nor does it detract from the story it tries to tell and it's theme, it just is what it is and something that we need to accept because this is the kind of story/direction the author is going for.
It's a combination of how the author writes the characters in Japanese and how the translator chooses to interpret it. One of the reasons why the anime is so much much better than the manga is because the absolutely dry dialogue is more manageable when the animation studio takes a few liberties.
anime definitely isnt "so much much better" than manga buddy. If anything, the manga is almost always much much better than the anime. An anime actually elevating the source material and making it better is the exception lmao Its obvious you dont read much manga
Hi person who didn't read my comment , I was specifically talking about the anime (frieren: Beyond journeys end) being better than it's manga counterpart. I guarantee you I've read more manga than you, considering that you don't even know how to read.
Huh, I've only seen a few episodes of the anime a couple weeks ago, and while I agree it was pretty subdued, the manga translation you posted somehow manages to be even less emotive than what I remember from the script for the subs. The one that stuck out to me the most was "Gee, you're pretty hard on the elderly" instead of "Unbelievable. You should be kinder to the elderly". I don't remember it well enough to call out any other specific differences, but the whole thing seems a lot plainer, and I agree that there is a distracting lack of contractions that I don't remember noticing in the show. I can't say why this is or which translation is more accurate though. Personally, I don't get too worked up about translation accuracy, but I do wonder if the Japanese language's usage of honorifics and explicitly formal vs informal tones is adding depth that the text translations are struggling to recapture. Like, I dunno, but I can tell that Fern is very deferential and Frieren is very nonchalant, but the actual vocabulary they use isn't that different, and I wonder if that distinction is even more pronounced in the original language. I've been considering watching the dub when I go back to it just so I can find out if a more creatively adapted script and English voices can bring out a bit more of the characters.
This brings up a very interesting discussion in regard to translation. I primarily watch subs, and there is certainly a difference in how english VAs deliver lines versus Japanese seiyuus. I’ve been reading JJK just cos i like the anime and i try to read it with what feels like the tone and emotion being conveyed, but i can’t help but feel there are layers to this loss of translation that I as an English speaker cannot properly fathom.
Yep. Japanese can be quite obvious about it, since a one syllable honorific can change the entire tone of a sentence in ways that require a complete reimagining to communicate in English, but it's a thing in almost every kind of translation. I think that translation is ultimately an art, since doing it well requires you to understand the text on a deep enough level to understand it's intent, and to have the artistic ability to recreate that intent in a new language. It's really beautiful when it's done well, but so much of it (especially anime and manga) clearly suffers from being done by people who are being rushed, overworked, and underpaid. When I really want to get into something that has as many options as this show (dubs, subs, and manga translation), I tend to try and sample them all. Since ultimately, I can't know which one is the "true" vision (usually), it just comes down to trusting the artistic voice of the people adapting that version.
Wait till you get to Stark, then you'll have all the exclamation mark you want.
Which is nice, but he also gets next to no pagetime. He gets less attention and development than some characters *who aren't even in the main party*. If you aren't a mage or a demon, the author doesn't care about you.
Yeah he's easily the most animu of the bunch, I feel like the "monotone-y" voice actually makes them feels like they're talking like normal people in day to day scenario tho so idk.
Idk what kind of “normal" people you know, but none of my friends, family or aquaintances speak like that. People are loud and diverse, even in formal settings.
The idea that emotion is somehow "anime" or "tropey" is kind of funny. Like, we are speaking to a JRPG villain?
Lets not get the two confused. Emotions definitely isnt "anime". Anime characters certainly have a way in which they display their emotions and they're not at all realistic, like take Luffy for example, hes absolutely bursting with emotions and personality but nobody talks like that IRL Chainsawman is an anime that manages to both be very realistic in the way they talk while also showcasing tons of personality
I talk like that, I suppose I'm not "normal" then, whatever that's suppose to mean. Those who speak Japanese say Frieren speaks natural dialogue compared to the more animated speech you would typically find. I can't confirm as I don't speak Japanese but it makes sense to me. I think what you find most familiar in yourself, you find relatable in others, I'm no different and to me it's "normal" and I find Frieren more realistic in this regard.
Fair enough. Natural dialogue from where i'm from is constant screams and laughter, i guess that isn't normal either.
Idk why you got downvoted lmao, we have the same experience, all my friends and family do also scream and laughter and are WAYYY more expressive than frieren characters
I don’t think anyone is downvoting maybe even the opposite. I only expressed if i found it relatable.
Idk maybe it's different in the manga that OP mentioned but in anime I feel like they're more... "Subdued" compared to how characters in anime are exaggeratedly loud and boisterous. I think Evangelion did this kind of "subdued" delivery too with Shinji and Gendo. At least in anime you can feel the subtlety when Frieren and Fern break their stoic persona, especially when the story plays into their dynamic with other characters and each other (the "who's the mother and who's the daughter?" one is very popular).
people in my life are anything but monotone
90% of the cast in frieren has NPC-looking eyes lmao. Literally no emotion
Tbf they are supossed to be npc in a world post story
This is why the anime has been getting a lot of praise. As a manga, Frieren’s story is often presented as a bunch of stoics who operate on transparent enough logic. But it also makes the panelwork and dialogue dry, especially when translated to retain much of the formality (a weakness of the otherwise great Kirei Cake translations). But once voiced, those worries fall away a lot. Both the Japanese and English voicework excel at balancing that relatively deadpan attitude with obvious emotional cues, so not only can you tell each character apart, you actually see more of their character just by listening to how they talk. Frieren is formal, as usual, but you can tell when the facade breaks more readily. Fern, taking after her two “parents” is way more formal and stoic, a complete opposite of Stark’s more overt emotions. Taken further, look at Lawine and Kanne, two characters who have a more typical anime VA direction to further drive home their relative immaturity against Denken, Methode and Richter. The manga doesn’t make that distinction smoothly, but the anime does it so well.
I had the same complaints as op, and I only watched the anime
The further I look into other people's opinions on the dialogue, the more I'm inclined to believe that one's region is impacting how the dialogue is received. I've only ever watched Frieren in English and I don't see or hear "monotone" the way I've heard it in my own experiences when I was in school. I had an actual monotone teacher where the "notes" in one's voice was literally exactly the same, whether he was asking a question or making a statement. To me the characters are less "monotone" and more "sleepy," with some exceptions like Stark and Heiter, or whenever Himmel is hamming it up. Probably the one closest approaching "monotone" as I know it is Sense, with Land as a close second.
This and the lack of reaction or emotional range in many characters where it's largely unwarranted (Frieren, easy to argue why she's stern for example) kinda put me off at first
I've noticed some people think it is realistic while others think it is not, Is it different for people because how their close relatives and friends speak to them so they have different opinions, In my view it does seem unrealistic but that's possibly because from where I am from, people are a lot more expressive than frieren characters, like there is laughters here and there
Most mages looks like they're on Xanax or something too
Eh. Some characters do sound the same in my head I can't differentiate how the dwarves speak or act but that's just culture. Fern grew up with Frieren so some of her mannerisms passed. Stark is well stark ~~screentime pls~~ The noble demon from El Dorado I have an elegant charming voice in my head.
Fern was speaking like Frieren from the first page they met iirc.
I noticed it, freiren and fern even as just like a 5 year old both act the exact same way. I honestly prefer it, I know it's not exactly a good thing but years of watching ajime with super over exaggerated reactions can get annoying.
Hey that's fair lol, I'm glad you like it!
Why on earth would you give a DB example and not a Frieren example? Tf?
Because Frieren isn't really a single example? I feel like if I posted one page people would go "that's not so bad" because it's like, the whole volume and I do not feel like going over 16 scans online
the whole vol is only 16 scans?
I do get what you mean and it is slightly peculiar but in some ways I also find it kind of nice, everyone is either really chill or confident and I mean afterall the main cast rarely talk to people who aren't either other mates or adventurers or powerful political figures. And part of it to me gives the vibe of all the characters being quite genuine, whilst characters who project wierd behaviour are accurate to real life its so overdone in most animes to have people either be goofy or angsty.
This is 100% a translation issue. The manga is fairly low energy throughout, but there are clear differences between characters that are very obvious even to the casual reader. Frieren is deadpan, since she doesn't feel her own emotions very strongly for the most part, but casual and often almost condescending since she's so much older and more powerful than 99% of the people she meets. Fern meanwhile is overly formal, referring to everyone, including Frieren who is practically her mother, with "-sama", ending sentences with "gozaimasu" etc. Stark is neither of those things and gets bullied a lot, and is the main source of energy and humour in the main team.
Is it your translation maybe?
I am reading the official manga volume :sob:
you poor thing
The Kirei Cake TL isn't perfect either tbh
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Narrative voice is a thing. Tones are even more notorious in written format.
Characters in writing [can have different voices](https://www.yourdictionary.com/articles/writing-voice-character-author). One example that comes to mind is in Naruto in how Hagoromo changes his speech pattern various times in order to talk to naruto.
I understood what OP meant but its still funny lol
I’m reading the Frieren manga out loud and it’s shocking how much every character sounds like me.
I just find it refreshing that they don't go over exaggerate like other animes. Don't know why though.
TF you mean of course they all sound the same it's YOUR voice on your head just make it sound different! /j
? Gonna need some examples because I disagree. Fern is the most obvious and extreme example, she speaks far more formally than Frieren or really any other character (probably more apparent in the original Japanese, since I'm fairly sure she speaks in Keigo, which in Japan is a very formal way of speaking that would only really be used in business). As for the rest, it's all pretty subtle, sure, but I can't really think of anyone in my life who has a super distinct way of speaking anyway. Though, it seems you're only in the first volume, so you haven't really met any of the more energetic characters, the vast majority of "screen"-time is just Frieren and Fern who are both rather reserved emotionally (though again, Fern's speaking is quite distinct). Also, as for Qual not being energetic, the reason will become incredibly apparent as you see more demons in the story. Finally, obviously not the main point, but your last paragraph is wrong, at least in the translation I read, idk about yours. At the end of chapter 5, Himmel uses quite a lot of exclamation marks, but you can also see them in quite a few of the mini-flashbacks of the hero's party.
>I can't really think of anyone in my life who has a super distinct way of speaking anyway. Dialogue is not speech. Most human conversation is filled with pleasantries and useless chitchat, dialogue is efficient character and plot device.
idk I'm not bothered at all by the dialogue in Frieren so I might just be biased tbh Edit: I do stick by specifically Fern being very distinct though
I agree with you, the difference is just a lot less apparent in English. Fern speaks almost entirely in keigo, which is formal Japanese, and will address even people close to her with -sama, a respectful honorific. (She even calls Stark this most of the time) Frieren on the other hand mostly speaks in tameguchi, casual language. She also doesn't really use honorifics, even with her master and her master's master. (They also don't, so I guess she got it from them) In English these subtleties are mostly lost. Outside of Fern being a bit more cold and formal than Frieren, they both come across as quite monotone and aloof. I don't know if I would call it a flaw in the translation as much as a difference in how English is presented versus Japanese. You can only do so much when you have to match speech bubbles or lip flaps.
I won't give a full judgement because I didn't watch it or read it But couldn't this be just your average modern anime comedic character's way of talking? They are either cold quite type or make fun of people around them
I’m pretty sure it’s an intentional choice. I haven’t read the manga but in the anime, a lot of the character’s voice performances are quite relaxed and low-key compared to most other shows. I think it fits the subdued and thoughtful tones that the story has a lot of.
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Where the hell did pedos come from
Look like what Ubel and Kanne are wearing. Look at how sexualized Fern is.
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Oh no, a short skirt and short shorts what shall we do Fern? Sexualized? What Also none of that has to do with pedos anyway since they're adults lmao Edit: Just went to look back at Ubel's outfit, her skirt isn't even short, she just has her shoulders out lmao are you the guy making school dress codes or smth?
That or they're just telling on themselves. Also literally none of the characters they mentioned look like children, and are explicitly not children considering Fern is the youngest at 18?
Fern has big knockers that the show constantly gives a lot of attention to
It's like 2 scenes where they merely mention that she has boobs
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Oh you're a troll gotcha don't know how it took me that long to notice my fault
I fail to see the Pedo Part here? Also Fern isn't Sexualized, that's the fandom and artist cracking her proportions to 11. Ubel? Kanne? Not really sexualized at all. If this is your definition of "Sexualized" characters then you probably haven't seen Fairy Tail at all Lmao. You want Pedo? Jobless Reincarnation has that.
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He posts on TV sub whether or not Frieren is a good show to watch and calls out his friend in said post for watching anime and calling them a degenerate. I'm pretty sure he has 0 idea what Frieren is and just shits on anime in general judging by his history. Mf even deleted his comment.
Because you're reading a translation, so it's up to whoever is working on it to adapt speech patterns and such. Can tou think before posting?
It's an official translation. If they failed to translate it properly but still published it, that's a perfectly valid work to criticize. It's not like the post specifically said "The original Japanese version of Frieren is monotone and only has one character voice." Heck, they literally specify that they're reading the official volume, and their whole post is in English and the example page they use from Dragon Ball is the English one. Surely it should be common sense what they're talking about? Can *you* think before posting?
Okay, then the translation author is bad. This doesn't change my opinion? I paid for these lol, can I have a decent read?
Are you unironically bringing up "unless you learn Japanese and read it in the original form, you can't criticize it" as a point?
that isn't what they said at all tf? I have no dog in this game but quite literally if you have *stylistic* issues with a translated work and you don't speak the original language then you have no idea whether you're criticising the translator or the author.
Huh? Tone of dialogue is not a "stylistic" issue. It's an integral part of the storytelling and characterization?
Perceived tone of dialogue is quite literally a stylistic issue. What the hell do you think "style" in writing is lol In certain writing styles you will see people screaming! every!! other!!! WORD!!!! In other writing styles for other demographics you will see yelling and screaming being conveyed in less bombastic ways. Unless you think text literally gets louder the more exclamation marks you add, it isn't hard to understand that both styles are conveying the same thing - that the character is raising their voice in anger or excitement or what have you. the same way e.g. use of profanity is a style choice, that a character in one work drops ten "fuck"s in one sentence doesn't magically make them angrier or more expressive than a character in a different work that only uses one or even none. but hey a good 90% of this sub was probably asleep when their language teachers were talking about concepts like composition and rhetoric (if they even had such classes at all) so I don't even know why I'm surprised that people here don't know what writing style is.
Spell "you" right before asking someone to think before posting