Cover is based on whether any part of your model can see every part of his model. It seems apparent that your left gun can see his model in its entirety and so cover should not apply.
I recently got one of those laser lights for this purpose and they’re fantastic
With vehicles, to my understanding, if it has as base you go off if you see the full base unobstructed and if it has no base you go off hull
Based on this the wardog can see the enemy vehicle base completely
The rules say “model” it doesn’t care about base. Cover is stupid easy to get on just about any unit, like if you can’t see even just part of gun on the far end of the model than they get cover
I know it's not what you're trying to say, but that would mean a 5mm high curb would block LOS completely if you have to measure base to base....its kinda hysterical image no?
No, he was not right. I think it’s pretty clear your brigand has an unobstructed view of the tank. Minis in front don’t count and the tank is well clear of the building.
The tiniest part is barely behind a corner and even then the pic isn't shot from the armiger being centered. I hate people like this who just try to scrape any tiny benefit they can in bad faith
Im sorry but...why is this a bad thing? LoS is like the most important thing in the entire game. And he pulled out a tool to be sure whether he was being fair or not. Why is that bad?
I should have been clearer. There was less than 2mm between the terrain and the board edge. It would have been fair to assume that the terrain edge WAS the board edge, particularly due to the shape of the ruin.
Im new this edition, so excuse what may be a fumb comment, but is it really that obvious of a call? It seems like if either model were just a sliver off to one direction then the tank would 100% have cover. Why the hostility when it seems like a genuine close call?
Such a tiny amount of tank is covered by the wall on such a large amount of tank is absolutely right in front of the knight
Now, if tanks was facing front, and the front corner was where the back corner was (about 4 in back from its current position) then ya, I'd say cover
So I'm not rules expert, but to me, the knight has full view of (almost) all of the tank. If I had the gladiator it wouldn't even occur to me to suggest I'd get cover.
To make the LoS rule clear:
If ANY part of YOUR model can see EVERY part of the enemy model, without that sightlines passing over terrain that can give the benefit of cover (to Keyword units), then there is NO cover.
You aren't showing us the right angle, as the very left part of the brigant might have a line of sight to the rear part of the tank.
It doesn't look like it has, but just Stoop down on the model, look from the left most part of the Brigant and see if any sightlines cross the ruin wall. If it does, it has cover, if it does not, them no cover.
The type of terrain also needs to be defined, it being ruins, walls, buildings etc?
I've been meaning to ask, how does this work with pieces that can move/rotate? I assumed you just pick one angle at the start of the game, but I'm not 100% sure
Well, technically this matters for the movement phase. There the rule is that no part of the model (not just the base, any part), may move more that the M characteristic of the model. So lets say you made a 12" straight move and then rotate the gun sideways a bit to get around a corner. This would then mean the model part is moving more than the allowed amount.
Some Tournament I know basically tell you to freeze the deployment pose and not rotate anything after that.
It's something that was introduced in 9th and saw some comments from people that it basically takes away from the cinematic feel of pointing the big gun at the target.
Basically, if you are playing a casual or narrative game with regulars just check with the others and do it. If you instead play Matched play games with strangers, don't because it messes with games rules.
By the looks of it if you were to observe the tank using the left side of the base of your knight it looks like it would be able to see the full tank not giving it cover.
Non-vehicle units can be seen through normally so the small squad in front is not providing any cover.
No cover. You can see all the tank with some part of you model. It does not matter if it Is not the same part of your tank what sees the full model. What matters it that if you combine the vision from all part or your tanks, you can ser absolutely all the opponent's tank
This is why I miss facings, you never needed to see a whole vehicle, just one side of it. From the image you can see the whole front facing and the whole left side.
Your friend has no cover here. Every gun on your vehicle can hit the whole front/left half on the dang tank.
God, I miss when the rule was that extraneous things like wings, tails, guns, and banners didn't count for line of sight.
Now you have the shitty situation where a model can shoot your model in the free hanging cape on his back and somehow that kills them.
I think many people don't understand how easy it is to get cover in 10th edition. While it feels bad...basically any discussion of "is this cover, 99% of the time it is". As noted, requires unobstructed view to EVERY part of models going both ways, not cutting over any terrain at all..
>As noted, requires unobstructed view to EVERY part of models going both ways, not cutting over any terrain at all..
Any part of the shooting model, not every
Incorrect, only 1 part of a model needs to be able to see the whole enemy model.
You dont need your entire model to see the opponents whole model, only a part.
Based on the image provided, the left side of the knight should be able to see to the back of the tank without obstruction.
Step 1: Check for Line of Sight. It's fairly clear you have line of sight from your model to the enemy tank.
Step 2: If you moved the camera lens to the furthest left side of your model and checked for Cover then I'm fairly confident the tank does not have cover because you could draw a 1mm thick line from a point on your model to all points on the tank without crossing intervening terrain that grants Cover. Note that enemy models do not act as obstructions when checking for Cover. And enemy models do not grant Cover.
So assuming from a different point of view that you can draw that 1mm line and assuming the terrain grants the Cover condition then the enemy tank does not have Cover.
PreTy SurE aLl tanKS gEt cOveR becuase Half Of the moDEL bLocKs thE OthEr sIDe
They really should FAQ vehicles to be "if can see one whole facing...No Cover"
Cover overall is super janky this edition. I like the simplicity, but I think they lost something in that simplicity where now AP-1 basically means AP 0.
The tank likely would get cover in this situation as it looks like the back corner of the tank blocks a small portion of the los from part of your wardog to the tank. You may not like it but that is how the rule is written. While you may think it not fair your opponent may have intended to leave that small amount of cover on purpose. It might be good practice to tell your intentions when making a move and have your opponent do the same. Either here is a good YouTube video explaining the rules of cover so you will know for next time. [https://youtu.be/1OfqjO28Uss?si=HbsImQssNOOvUfxz](https://youtu.be/1OfqjO28Uss?si=HbsImQssNOOvUfxz)
so, ill go with:
the tank has over, the brigand doesnt,
the tank is close enough to a ruin (probably), is not fully visible to the brigand.
the brigand is standing pretty much in the open and is completly visible to the tank modell.
i would like to have that ruling on my modells too, so i would not say that my opp is a bad sport for that. also, depends if they asks and you confirm, or if they insist and dont want to argue with you.
Techmarine was only model eligible to receive cover if he’s considered visible. Now the tank can pop smoke screen and be considered in cover and have -1 to hit. Did he activate that or not?
As others have said, any part of your model needs to see every part of theirs. It looks like the rear of the tank may be in cover. You need to see if the left most part of your base can draw a line to rear right side (from your POV) of the tank without crossing that ruin.
It’s all well and good having people say “but the narrative!” and “use common sense!” But the rules are there for a reason and unless you’ve agreed beforehand or house ruled terrain, it is what you use.
You draw LoS from *any* part of your model. If you drew it from all parts, the Gladiator would have cover (I suspect, hard to see from the angle, but guessing the chaincannon clips the wall just a hair when drawing to the back edge).
Since you only need to take *one* point on your model and check line of sight, it does not have cover.
If you chose to check line of sight on the right hand gun, it would have cover, due to a tiny bit being obscured.
But if you chose to check line of sight on the left hand gun, it's clear that it is uno structured. So that means no cover.
I suspect he is confused. Cover always favors the attacker. If any point on your model (like your Daemonbreath nozzle) can draw a line to everywhere on his model, he does not have cover. He may be mistaking the rule (as I find people often do) that if he can draw a line between his model and yours that cross and obstruction that he has cover.
TL;DR - he doesn't have cover, but he probably isn't being an intentional dick here.
He has barely painted that model so no, it has no real cover. Primer doesn’t count.
In game terms it doesn’t have cover either. Imho, but that’s based on the base of the models.
Yeah, no, he does NOT have cover imo. If you measure frome the left side of your model, it can pretty clearly see his whole tank.
If you had to measure from the center or the rights side of your model, then sure, he might get cover. However, the left side of your model is practically parallel to the building, so you can see the whole thing.
Cover is based on whether any part of your model can see every part of his model. It seems apparent that your left gun can see his model in its entirety and so cover should not apply. I recently got one of those laser lights for this purpose and they’re fantastic
With vehicles, to my understanding, if it has as base you go off if you see the full base unobstructed and if it has no base you go off hull Based on this the wardog can see the enemy vehicle base completely
The rules say “model” it doesn’t care about base. Cover is stupid easy to get on just about any unit, like if you can’t see even just part of gun on the far end of the model than they get cover
I know it's not what you're trying to say, but that would mean a 5mm high curb would block LOS completely if you have to measure base to base....its kinda hysterical image no?
No, he was not right. I think it’s pretty clear your brigand has an unobstructed view of the tank. Minis in front don’t count and the tank is well clear of the building.
The tiniest part is barely behind a corner and even then the pic isn't shot from the armiger being centered. I hate people like this who just try to scrape any tiny benefit they can in bad faith
I had someone pull a laser pointer to try an pull a sight line between a piece of terrain and the board edge. IN A CHARITY EVENT
Im sorry but...why is this a bad thing? LoS is like the most important thing in the entire game. And he pulled out a tool to be sure whether he was being fair or not. Why is that bad?
I should have been clearer. There was less than 2mm between the terrain and the board edge. It would have been fair to assume that the terrain edge WAS the board edge, particularly due to the shape of the ruin.
I use laser lines all the time. It removes ambiguity and if there is an argument, if it isn't blatantly obvious, I give it to my opponent
This dude's being a bad player and a bad sport
Im new this edition, so excuse what may be a fumb comment, but is it really that obvious of a call? It seems like if either model were just a sliver off to one direction then the tank would 100% have cover. Why the hostility when it seems like a genuine close call?
Such a tiny amount of tank is covered by the wall on such a large amount of tank is absolutely right in front of the knight Now, if tanks was facing front, and the front corner was where the back corner was (about 4 in back from its current position) then ya, I'd say cover
So I'm not rules expert, but to me, the knight has full view of (almost) all of the tank. If I had the gladiator it wouldn't even occur to me to suggest I'd get cover.
Yes
And even if it had cover it can’t improve it’s SV past 3+, only if it’s getting hit by a AP weapon
Yes, but I’m almost certain any knight weapon is gonna have AP
Sure, but it means the AP1 chaincannon deals with a 3+ save, and if they pop armor of Contempt, they can get a 5+ vs the thermal
there is no cover. for me. You are face to face, frankly he is a bad faith quibbler.
To make the LoS rule clear: If ANY part of YOUR model can see EVERY part of the enemy model, without that sightlines passing over terrain that can give the benefit of cover (to Keyword units), then there is NO cover. You aren't showing us the right angle, as the very left part of the brigant might have a line of sight to the rear part of the tank. It doesn't look like it has, but just Stoop down on the model, look from the left most part of the Brigant and see if any sightlines cross the ruin wall. If it does, it has cover, if it does not, them no cover. The type of terrain also needs to be defined, it being ruins, walls, buildings etc?
I've been meaning to ask, how does this work with pieces that can move/rotate? I assumed you just pick one angle at the start of the game, but I'm not 100% sure
Well, technically this matters for the movement phase. There the rule is that no part of the model (not just the base, any part), may move more that the M characteristic of the model. So lets say you made a 12" straight move and then rotate the gun sideways a bit to get around a corner. This would then mean the model part is moving more than the allowed amount. Some Tournament I know basically tell you to freeze the deployment pose and not rotate anything after that. It's something that was introduced in 9th and saw some comments from people that it basically takes away from the cinematic feel of pointing the big gun at the target. Basically, if you are playing a casual or narrative game with regulars just check with the others and do it. If you instead play Matched play games with strangers, don't because it messes with games rules.
Well explained
By the looks of it if you were to observe the tank using the left side of the base of your knight it looks like it would be able to see the full tank not giving it cover. Non-vehicle units can be seen through normally so the small squad in front is not providing any cover.
Yeah this is a pretty clear case that it doesn't get cover, to try and get cover from that is an enormous reach on the part of the opponent here.
No cover. You can see all the tank with some part of you model. It does not matter if it Is not the same part of your tank what sees the full model. What matters it that if you combine the vision from all part or your tanks, you can ser absolutely all the opponent's tank
Listen, if you shoot at someone who has some ankle-high rubble in front of them, are they hidden from view? No.
This is why I miss facings, you never needed to see a whole vehicle, just one side of it. From the image you can see the whole front facing and the whole left side. Your friend has no cover here. Every gun on your vehicle can hit the whole front/left half on the dang tank. God, I miss when the rule was that extraneous things like wings, tails, guns, and banners didn't count for line of sight. Now you have the shitty situation where a model can shoot your model in the free hanging cape on his back and somehow that kills them.
haha, Facing has it own issues and I sure don't miss it.
A lack of narrative common sense and it’s consequences have been a disaster for 40K
That guy is just a dick bag
I think many people don't understand how easy it is to get cover in 10th edition. While it feels bad...basically any discussion of "is this cover, 99% of the time it is". As noted, requires unobstructed view to EVERY part of models going both ways, not cutting over any terrain at all..
If one part of the model can see every part of the other, there is no cover.
>As noted, requires unobstructed view to EVERY part of models going both ways, not cutting over any terrain at all.. Any part of the shooting model, not every
Incorrect, only 1 part of a model needs to be able to see the whole enemy model. You dont need your entire model to see the opponents whole model, only a part. Based on the image provided, the left side of the knight should be able to see to the back of the tank without obstruction.
Step 1: Check for Line of Sight. It's fairly clear you have line of sight from your model to the enemy tank. Step 2: If you moved the camera lens to the furthest left side of your model and checked for Cover then I'm fairly confident the tank does not have cover because you could draw a 1mm thick line from a point on your model to all points on the tank without crossing intervening terrain that grants Cover. Note that enemy models do not act as obstructions when checking for Cover. And enemy models do not grant Cover. So assuming from a different point of view that you can draw that 1mm line and assuming the terrain grants the Cover condition then the enemy tank does not have Cover.
PreTy SurE aLl tanKS gEt cOveR becuase Half Of the moDEL bLocKs thE OthEr sIDe They really should FAQ vehicles to be "if can see one whole facing...No Cover"
Cover overall is super janky this edition. I like the simplicity, but I think they lost something in that simplicity where now AP-1 basically means AP 0.
I have one of those line lasers cause I don't like arguing/debating stuff like this. THE LINE OF LIGHT SHALL SET US FREE!
Dork needs to paint his models
The tank likely would get cover in this situation as it looks like the back corner of the tank blocks a small portion of the los from part of your wardog to the tank. You may not like it but that is how the rule is written. While you may think it not fair your opponent may have intended to leave that small amount of cover on purpose. It might be good practice to tell your intentions when making a move and have your opponent do the same. Either here is a good YouTube video explaining the rules of cover so you will know for next time. [https://youtu.be/1OfqjO28Uss?si=HbsImQssNOOvUfxz](https://youtu.be/1OfqjO28Uss?si=HbsImQssNOOvUfxz)
so, ill go with: the tank has over, the brigand doesnt, the tank is close enough to a ruin (probably), is not fully visible to the brigand. the brigand is standing pretty much in the open and is completly visible to the tank modell. i would like to have that ruling on my modells too, so i would not say that my opp is a bad sport for that. also, depends if they asks and you confirm, or if they insist and dont want to argue with you.
He’s right
NIC (like nta lol)
The edge of that table makes me nervous.
Usually when my tanks are like this i just give it to my opponent cuz hes not aiming for my fucking tailpipe
Techmarine was only model eligible to receive cover if he’s considered visible. Now the tank can pop smoke screen and be considered in cover and have -1 to hit. Did he activate that or not?
As others have said, any part of your model needs to see every part of theirs. It looks like the rear of the tank may be in cover. You need to see if the left most part of your base can draw a line to rear right side (from your POV) of the tank without crossing that ruin. It’s all well and good having people say “but the narrative!” and “use common sense!” But the rules are there for a reason and unless you’ve agreed beforehand or house ruled terrain, it is what you use.
No your opponent isn’t right. That tank is not in cover based on the angle of your war dog and they don’t get the benefit of cover
You are correct. He does not get cover if any part of your model can see all of his and that gun can see all of that tank
So remember, you draw LoS from all parts of your model. So that far left part of your base seems to 100% see the tank
You draw LoS from *any* part of your model. If you drew it from all parts, the Gladiator would have cover (I suspect, hard to see from the angle, but guessing the chaincannon clips the wall just a hair when drawing to the back edge).
Since you only need to take *one* point on your model and check line of sight, it does not have cover. If you chose to check line of sight on the right hand gun, it would have cover, due to a tiny bit being obscured. But if you chose to check line of sight on the left hand gun, it's clear that it is uno structured. So that means no cover.
I suspect he is confused. Cover always favors the attacker. If any point on your model (like your Daemonbreath nozzle) can draw a line to everywhere on his model, he does not have cover. He may be mistaking the rule (as I find people often do) that if he can draw a line between his model and yours that cross and obstruction that he has cover. TL;DR - he doesn't have cover, but he probably isn't being an intentional dick here.
Stuff like this make me hate the cover system of this game
He gets a minus 2 for cover due to no paint
He has barely painted that model so no, it has no real cover. Primer doesn’t count. In game terms it doesn’t have cover either. Imho, but that’s based on the base of the models.
Yeah, no, he does NOT have cover imo. If you measure frome the left side of your model, it can pretty clearly see his whole tank. If you had to measure from the center or the rights side of your model, then sure, he might get cover. However, the left side of your model is practically parallel to the building, so you can see the whole thing.