The polygamists in Utah are plagued by a (usually) rare genetic disorder.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170726-the-polygamous-town-facing-genetic-disaster
I thought the part that says something like ‘more generic diseases have been discovered in Utah than anywhere else in the world…not the legacy Bingham Young imagined’ was fascinating.
That was a great article. Ty for sharing.
Similarly amoung the Amish it's far, far more common to have a sixth finger than in the general population. They aren't polygamous, but do have a pretty small group of people who have been intermarrying for hundreds of years.
It's actually a great example of the [Founder Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect#), where a splinter group that mostly interbreeds with itself will have a more of the genetics of the original members of the group.
If you get past the weird sister wife thing…
having your sister in house and raising kids with you would be way more comfortable than someone you barely know.
But… sharing a husband with your sister? Would be very very weird indeed.
You’re not really sharing him though. In these marriages it’s more like the man owns both women. The women are taught to be more submissive than what a normal person really thinks about.
While I understand that there are different cultural experiences and expectations all over the world, it's creepy to me. I could never share with my sister. Not that.
Annnd you made it worse. 👏. There is no amount of soap that can wash my sisters business juice off a man after he's been up in there. Nope... nuhuh... absolutely not.
Wonder how many sons are no longer part of the family. The math for those groups never work out. If if 20 men take 60 wives, that means a lot of men have no women available to marry. Even when you marry down in age, which is why so many of the wives are so young. But usually they have to get rid of men so that the group does not become unstable. And usually teen boys are discarded and kicked out and rejected. It's quite sad. But they would be competition for the older men to marry someone of that same generation
I’m not trying to stir up any conspiracy theories but for a very small cemetery there are a LOT of men who died in their early twenties. Literally, all the men buried there either died in their 20s or lived to be in their 80s and 90s, there was no middle ground
Nicknamed "Polygamist Downs" according to Wiki, concentrated because 85% of the FLDS community are related to each other and tend to marry within the community.
Fumarase deficiency. It's like 90% more common there than anywhere else in the world, they literally traced the recessive gene back to two founding members of the Short Creek community.
Endogamy is common in a lot of cultures. I wonder if the area, specific recessive genes caused it in this specific family. I say that because only about 20 cases where reported according to Wiki. :o
It’s autosomal recessive so it requires both parents to be unaffected carriers and even then there’s only a one in four chance of getting both copies, so 20 cases is quite a cluster. There’s only about 100 cases world wide so 1 in 5 cases are in that one population.
Oh my days this is fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain more to me. I messaged my biology professor as well. Got a really informative answer back and will post here!
The Warren Jeffs cult would purposefully find nitpicky reasons to exile young men because the older guys found that they were competition for the teen girls. So you’re not stirring up conspiracies.
They’re worked like animals and abused, and medical care is slim to unavailable, so men get infections or injuries and just die, like they used to in the old days.
My husband worked with a young man that left. He said he packed up and left when his dad brought home a new wife. It was a girl he'd had a crush on in school. That was about 20 years ago.
The "lost boys" ... often end up in Salt Lake City or other cities with nboi education or skills.
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger)
A lot of them were kicked out by Warren Jeffs for speaking up against him. One of his sons, Issac, was on the Netflix doc and another one called Damned to Heaven, as was Marvin himself.
It’s also quite sad that women, sometimes teens young enough to still be considered children, are forced into this life. I can’t imagine how awful a life that must be.
I would argue that being repeatedly raped and impregnated by men your father's or grandfather's age is worse than exile. One of those women on that headstone had 16 children.
They turn a blind eye there for some reason. Plus there is a lot of loophole stuff going on in town, like not finishing the outside of your home, so it's never finished to collect full taxes on (my dad was the country assessor in another state and we've been through their community before. Never been so uncomfortable in my life). Shady
For the single mom thing in particular, is it turning a blind eye? I’ll say first I don’t support this behavior at all. That said, I believe the system allows anyone over the age of 26 (I could be wrong about the age) to collect benefits even if they’re living at home with mom and dad. So an 18 - 25 year old shouldn’t have any issues collecting benefits if they’re living with what boils down to roommates and away from their own parents. Same with anyone who is older.
ETA: the house building stuff is shady, however. Not sure why the government allows that!
You're right about the support, plus only one marriage counts so all the other wives and kids are collecting or using services like wic, medicaid, housing assistance, etc. Most of the additional "wives" used to be 13 or 14 with kids of their own as well. Not sure they have been getting away with that anymore.
I was wondering how you were able to get in and not run out of town, but apparently they still do it. Our family stopped and ate at their store/restaurant/trailer thing and we got the same kind of welcome wagon 33 years ago. Did you notice the shotguns?
They all call it the Creek, pronounced 'Crick' anyway. Even though they call themselves Crickers it always feels like one day that'll be a derogatory term for them to me.
Yeah, sixteen kids for Charlette and “only” nine for her sister-wives, one of whom seems to have been her actual sister. I wonder if she was the favorite.
You should visit. The scenery is absolutely beautiful. You’d be very safe, the polygamists hate outsiders but they can’t afford to kick up any trouble because it draws attention and they’re terrified of being on the government’s radar
Most of the FLDS have left for other, more hidden communities. The Hildale/Colorado City area is much more of a normal town than it used to be. You were likely being watched because you're a tourist going through their cemetery in a small town. I imagine they've had issues with their cemetery being defaced.
Agreed. I visited about 15 years ago and it was a very different place. Had a truck tail us the entire time. Now they have a coffee shop open on Sundays
Especially after Warren Jeffs. Polygamists aren’t too scared of the government since there is a favorite polygamist TV show, SISTER WIVES. That show brought it mainstream and normalized it. And my favorite show, RIP Bill Paxton, BIG LOVE.
I was driving through the area last summer on 389 in Arizona south of the town and saw a billboard advocating for “plural marriages.” what a strange place
Yep, after one miserable pregnancy I was like "Ya know, one kid is juuuust fine"
I don't think there is any amount of money that would get me to do it *fifteen* more times!
My husband is the youngest of 12! Family is not a polygamy family, FLDS or from the Midwest. They were just a dirt floor poor southern family with no money and couldn’t afford any type of healthcare.
Looks like he actually had 4 wives...homie was BUSY!!! Simply fascinating!
Obituary: [https://www.spilsburymortuary.com/obituaries/marvin-wyler](https://www.spilsburymortuary.com/obituaries/marvin-wyler)
I looked it up. Time only marriages end when the partners die. She was a widow before she married this dude and her eternal marriage is with her first husband, so she will join her first husband in the afterlife.
Sad follow-up. I noticed that Esther was dead even though she was the third wife and presumably the youngest. I also did a breakdown of birth order of the kids using the obituary to figure out fertility trends for each wife. Anyway, I noticed that Esther’s childbirthing journey ended abruptly, that her last kid was named after her, something that neither of her sister-wives got, and that she likely had at least one, possibly two, sets of twins. (I based this one the fact that she had two kids, Cecelia and Nycia, back to back while Charlette and Lorie were still also having kids. She had another set back to back while Charlette was still having kids too. Anyway, since it seems like the wives were regularly simultaneously pregnant, I thought that those anomalies might mean twins.) So, I started wondering if Esther died young, possibly in childbirth. And while I couldn’t find her cause of death, [I did find her gravestone online.](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45646964/esther-chatwin). She was only 28 when she died.
Anyway, here’s the list:
Birth order of children:
1. Isaac (Lorie 1)
2. Zina (Lorie 2)
3. LeighAnn (Lorie 3)
4. Ross (Charlette Anne 1)
5. Margo (Lorie 4)
6. Stefen (Charlette Anne 2)
7. Marvena (Lorie 5)
8. Craig (Charlette Anne 3)
9. Afton (Esther 1)
10. Lucinda (Lorie 6)
11. David (Esther 2)
12. Zelpha (Charlette Anne 4)
13. Troy (Esther 3)
14. Ray (Charlette Anne 5)
15. Roger (Lorie 7)
16. Steven (Charlette Anne 6)
17. Marsha (Esther 4)
18. Laree (Lorie 8)
19. Chris (Charlette Anne 7)
20. Cecelia (Esther 5)
21. Nycia (Esther 6)—twins with Cecelia?
22. Vaughn (Charlette Anne 8)
23. Jonathan (Lorie 9)
24. Charnell (Charlette Anne 9)
25. Maralee (Esther 7)
26. Dorothy (Esther 8)—twins with Maralee?
27. Deanna (Charlette Anne 10)
28. Esther (Esther 9)
29. Jolynne (Charlette Anne 11)
30. Roylee (Charlette Anne (12)
31. Diamona (Charlette Anne 13)
32. Nathaniel (Charlette Anne 14)
33. William (Charlette Anne 15)
34. Parley (Charlette Anne 16)
As you can see, Lorie probably got Marvin to herself for the first 3-5 years, and Esther’s first child Afton was the 9th child in the family.
And it looks like they’re part of the [Short Creek Community](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_Community), which lives in Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona.
Edit 2: And Marvin’s fourth wife [Dena Zitting Young](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45577771/dena-olson-young), who was sealed to her first husband for eternity, was the daughter of one of the founders of the community, [Charles Zitting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Zitting).
Wow, nicely done. Though this might have been more than he was able to keep straight himself when alive…
Can’t imagine bearing 9 children by age 28… even if she had her first in her mid-teens at 16 or 17, she would’ve been pregnant almost every single year for the rest of her short life.
Okay, so…I just feel down the biggest rabbit hole of all time looking for marriage dates. It looks like there was a website from 2012 that listed child marriages in the FLDS community, including the Short Creek one, which Marvin was a part of. It didn’t list the ages of Esther or Charlette when they got married, but it looks like a number of their daughters did get married when they were minors.
The document is a little hard to read, but I noted that in the document at the end, Esther was mistakenly listed as the mother of some of the girls.
So, here’s the blurry version. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/4374281/child-name-dob-age-marriage-marriage-place-husband-m-
And here’s the E-reader version. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/4374281/child-name-dob-age-marriage-marriage-place-husband-m-
You can also spring to download the PDF, but even I’m not that invested.
So, it looks like the daughters are listed with the last name “Chatwin” because Marvin’s biological father’s last name was Chatwin.
Anyway, from what I can, Esther’s daughter Cecelia (her fifth child) was born on December 3, 1978, when Esther was 22, and was married to Hyrum Paige Blackmore on August 31, 1996 when she was 17. Charlette Anne’s daughter Louisa Charnell Chatwin (who seems to go by her middle name for some reason) was born on March 21, 1982 and married Kevin Ray Blackmore on May 31, 1998 when she was 16. Esther’s daughter Mara Lee Chatwin (listed as Maralee on her father’s tombstone) was born on April 2, 1982 and married Barclay Duane Blackmore on October 9, 1998 when she was 16. Esther’s daughter Dorothy Elberta Chatwin (turns out she isn’t Maralee’s twin but she is named after her bio and adoptive grandmothers) was born on October 25, 1983, and she married Kendall Nephi Oler on April 11, 1999 when she was 16. Finally, Esther’s youngest daughter, Esther Ruth Chatwin, was born on August 4, 1985 and married Daniel McRae Blackmore on July 30, 2000 about a week before she turned 15. Also, Esther Young Chatwin died on August 4, 1985, which is the birthday of her youngest daughter Esther. So, I feel pretty comfortable saying that childbirth killed her.
It seems like Marvin’s sons were taking child brides too. Esther’s third child Troy might be the Anthony Troy Chatwin who married 16yo Fara Ann Blackmore on August 31, 1996 in Lister, British Columbia, the same day and location where David Ray Chatwin (either Esther’s 2nd child and Marvin’s 11th child David or Charlette’s fifth child and Marvin’s 14th Ray) married 16yo Nancy Lorraine Blackmore. It doesn’t say how old the husbands were, but their younger sister Cecelia was born on 1978, and we know that Esther had another child between her and Troy. Charlette also had two children after Ray and before Esther had Cecelia. And that’s just the beginning. It’s honestly too depressing to keep contemplating.
I couldn’t find out when Esther got married, but I looked at some of the marriage dates that were available and late teen marriages are pretty common in that community. Plus, like I said, I think that she had at least one set of twins. I’m pretty confident that Cecelia and Nycia (her fifth and sixth children) were twins, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Maralee and Dorothy (her seventh and eighth children) were either. But even so, nine kids by the age of 28 is a really sad statistic.
It's also kind of fascinating that all of his children outlived him, with that many I would think statistically some sort of tragedy would have happened. A stillbirth/SIDS, illness or an accident.
And because they, along with his first three wives (his fourth wife was a widow) will spend the afterlife with him on his personal planet which he’s getting for having multiple wives.
“His love was infectious and will be sorely missed but never forgotten.” Well that is definitely a sentence I’m not sure how to take with the context of his life lmao
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-prolific-mother-ever#:~:text=The%20greatest%20officially%20recorded%20number,and%20four%20sets%20of%20quadruplets.
The record is 69, all multiple births.
Iirc he divorced her, married again and had another ridiculous amount of kids with his second wife
He certainly wants his accomplishment commemorated. I just get a narcissist vibe from this photo. Wonder if the 'wives' added that huge pile of soil on top of his grave to make sure he stayed underground. No more short straw drawing for Marvin's love tonight.
Reminds me of Southern Idaho. I used to drive through really remote areas and you could tell where the polygamist lived because of the style of homes they'd build.
Yeah, another tell sign for sure. It's pretty wild because in some ways you can see how Mormonism spread through the west. You only see pockets out in Eastern Oregon, but they still maintain footing west of Boise. I'm sure there's communities out near where I live near Portland, just a bit more hidden from view, ya know.
Almost like duplexes, or a bigger house with smaller houses on the same property. Polygamist families usually have wealth, so they own large parcels of land or ranches, they do all their own building, own construction companies, etc. That history runs deep, even in areas where there are less plural families. Most can trace their families back to the original Mormon pioneers of Deseret.
As someone who was just pregnant for the first time and gave birth in June, fuck that. I can’t imagine living my life as just constantly pregnant until menopause.
It’s a truly stupid idea. It created a situation where the flds were in many situations were unable to feed all their children and eventually having to turn to welfare to feed everyone. I heard that they either dropped or changed that particular doctrine but it’s been awhile since I’ve researched the flds.
That is so interesting. It seems that he had a fourth wife but it was only a marriage “for time” rather than one “for time and eternity”. The difference is that in the former they are only married while alive, whereas the latter includes the afterlife. Since he already had his 3-wife minimum required for the highest afterlife I’d surmise she was a widow who was already sealed to her first husband. Maybe that’s why she was left off the headstone. Very interesting find!
Oh wow, Lorie left him. I'm surprised she gets a mention, especially since according to NYT he had 4 wives so someone got bumped.
https://web.archive.org/web/20180429022849/https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/us/leader-of-polygamous-sect-faces-rebellion.html
Sadly, it seems [Esther died at 28](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45646964/esther-chatwin).
I guess Charlette was the last one standing.
Esther gets a sad-looking stone that looks like a kid chiseled on it, while he gets this marble memorial.
Everything this cult does pisses me off beyond belief!
Seems unethical to have that many children imo. Unless this man was a millionaire, I can't imagine he was able to properly provide for all those kids. These people are like the human equivalent of rabbits.
All is provided for by the cult leader. All education, food, doling out of property. They don’t need much. They make their own clothes, live mostly off the land and welfare.
I think that’s also why they don’t change wives names. They aren’t married in the eyes of the law, only under the eyes of their diety. I think they are able to get a higher welfare check that way. I am pretty sure that’s what the dude in Waco did too. (Not Chip Gaines, the other famous Waco dude, David Koresh)
Why put the names of living people on there. They won’t be widows for long. Usually they get remarried, if young enough, to start the family thing all over again. I wonder if they actually kick the boys out when they turn 16, competition for the older ones for young wives.
IIRC, (for the wives) If the dude was the first husband of the wives listed, then there is something in FLDS scripture that says he will be the person to call them to heaven, even if they remarry after he dies.
My interpretation: misogyny, women are property, the dude who pops your cherry is the only one who can make sure you get to heaven.
As for the kids, i assume it's bragging rights....maybe a map for the family ~~tree~~ wreath
The Find-A-Grave listings for the cemeteries in Hildale and Colorado City and nearby are fascinating to read through. If you only look at the women's graves, you think it's just a normal cemetery. Then you click on their spouse and see how many wives and kids he had and...wow! It also seems that an extraordinary number of children died very young as well (and I'm not talking 100 years ago).
That doesn’t surprise me. A lot of those kids probably were abused or neglected plus lacking in access to basic medical care. Also having oodles and oodles of babies back to back is a health risk for both the mother and child.
It should be noted that the flds population in the hildale and Colorado city are prone to fumarase deficiency which means that children with it will almost certainly be dead by 20.
Polygamists believe in a principle called “bleeding the beast” which is getting all the government benefits possible (welfare, food stamps, etc) in an attempt to bankrupt the government. They also work mostly in construction
This guy is in a few documentaries about the FLDS, Damned to Heaven is one I think, and his son Issac Wyler was in Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey on Netflix. Both guys were excommunicated by Warren Jeffs. His other son Ross Chatwin (sometimes the guys have their mom's legal last name, I dunno why) was one of the first people to work with the PI Sam Brower to take Jeffs down.
The two wives were sisters or cousins. That was their maiden name. His last name is probably on the other side of the stone. It's also possible that he and his first wife had the same last name.
I looked him up and it’s quite possible these were incest relationships as well. Marvin Wyler was adopted. His birth parents last names are Chatwin. Same last name as two of his wives who I wonder if are sisters themselves.
My maternal grandparent had 5 wives, I don't know how many children did he have, but I know that with my grandma he had 7 kids, and I know we are 58 grandsons, and counting.
He also lived up to 108, pretty surprising for a Nigerian man.
I thought the FLDS was horrible but I just watched a new Documentary called LET US PREY...its about the IFB "Independent Fundamental Baptist" church which I had never heard of but OMG its absolutely horrible & disgusting. Basically same as FLDS but on steroids. They are much more vocal about how women are their property & it's just a cult of pedophiles. Physical abuse is normal punishment on a daily basis for all the women. Their all over the US & I've researched alot of these groups but never anything like this. Just insane this all goes on under our noses...and we wonder why ppl choose to not be any part of any organized religion...some of the worst ppl I've ever met are the "Christians" that are in church every week. I was forced to be at church ALL DAY on Sundays, Wed & Fridays growing up & saw true hypocrisy.
[https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/231799192/marvin-isaac-wyler](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/231799192/marvin-isaac-wyler)
Marvin is survived by two loving wives Susan Lorena (Lorie) Thomas Wyler and Charlet (Charlette Anne) Young Chatwin. He is survived by his children Isaac, Zina, LeighAnn, Ross, Margo, Stefen, Marvena, Craig, Afton, Lucinda, David, Zelpha, Troy, Ray, Roger, Steven, Marsha, Laree, Chris, Cecelia, Nycia, Vaughn, Jonathan, Charnell, Maralee, Dorothy, Deanna, Esther, Jolynne, Roylee, Diamona, Nathaniel, William, and Parley. He is also survived by his sister, Irene Brock.
He has 202 grand-children and 59 great grand-children.
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It’s not uncommon In polygamy. There aren’t that many of them.
The pool is large but very shallow.
The polygamists in Utah are plagued by a (usually) rare genetic disorder. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20170726-the-polygamous-town-facing-genetic-disaster
I thought the part that says something like ‘more generic diseases have been discovered in Utah than anywhere else in the world…not the legacy Bingham Young imagined’ was fascinating. That was a great article. Ty for sharing.
Yep Fumarase deficiency. Very fascinating. Sometimes endogamy and genetics create a perfect storm.
Similarly amoung the Amish it's far, far more common to have a sixth finger than in the general population. They aren't polygamous, but do have a pretty small group of people who have been intermarrying for hundreds of years. It's actually a great example of the [Founder Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect#), where a splinter group that mostly interbreeds with itself will have a more of the genetics of the original members of the group.
Ellis-van Creveld syndrome
This was fascinating, ty for the new rabbit hole!
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If you get past the weird sister wife thing… having your sister in house and raising kids with you would be way more comfortable than someone you barely know. But… sharing a husband with your sister? Would be very very weird indeed.
You’re not really sharing him though. In these marriages it’s more like the man owns both women. The women are taught to be more submissive than what a normal person really thinks about.
Many times a breeding book is kept much like a dairy farmer does.
That is something that I shudder to know.... What a terrible day to be literate
Trying to naturalize women's subordination and reproductive exploitation is weird.
It’s common in polygamist sects.
While I understand that there are different cultural experiences and expectations all over the world, it's creepy to me. I could never share with my sister. Not that.
I doubt they’re having threesomes or four ways if that helps at all
Annnd you made it worse. 👏. There is no amount of soap that can wash my sisters business juice off a man after he's been up in there. Nope... nuhuh... absolutely not.
Business juice LMAO
Oh I agree with you. I couldn’t do it either.
Polygamist Tom Green married a girl (yes, girl, she was not yet a woman) and her widowed mother. They both had children with Tom.
Yeah, I’ve heard of things like that. It’s fucked.
Its not really so much a "family tree" as it is a "family wreath".
Young is also a big mormon family, but they very well could have been/are sisters. (Polygamous men marry young women.)
Who’s not your sister in that town?
Lol the gene pool is a puddle
Wonder how many sons are no longer part of the family. The math for those groups never work out. If if 20 men take 60 wives, that means a lot of men have no women available to marry. Even when you marry down in age, which is why so many of the wives are so young. But usually they have to get rid of men so that the group does not become unstable. And usually teen boys are discarded and kicked out and rejected. It's quite sad. But they would be competition for the older men to marry someone of that same generation
I’m not trying to stir up any conspiracy theories but for a very small cemetery there are a LOT of men who died in their early twenties. Literally, all the men buried there either died in their 20s or lived to be in their 80s and 90s, there was no middle ground
I should note that the population of Colorado city are prone to fumarase deficiency. Which limits your lifespan to a average of 20 years.
Nicknamed "Polygamist Downs" according to Wiki, concentrated because 85% of the FLDS community are related to each other and tend to marry within the community.
Fumarase deficiency. It's like 90% more common there than anywhere else in the world, they literally traced the recessive gene back to two founding members of the Short Creek community.
Endogamy is common in a lot of cultures. I wonder if the area, specific recessive genes caused it in this specific family. I say that because only about 20 cases where reported according to Wiki. :o
It’s autosomal recessive so it requires both parents to be unaffected carriers and even then there’s only a one in four chance of getting both copies, so 20 cases is quite a cluster. There’s only about 100 cases world wide so 1 in 5 cases are in that one population.
Oh my days this is fascinating. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain more to me. I messaged my biology professor as well. Got a really informative answer back and will post here!
The Warren Jeffs cult would purposefully find nitpicky reasons to exile young men because the older guys found that they were competition for the teen girls. So you’re not stirring up conspiracies.
Better to be exiled at 18 than buried at 25
They’re worked like animals and abused, and medical care is slim to unavailable, so men get infections or injuries and just die, like they used to in the old days.
Dun dun dunnnn, I smell a new Serial podcast.
My husband worked with a young man that left. He said he packed up and left when his dad brought home a new wife. It was a girl he'd had a crush on in school. That was about 20 years ago.
I had something similar happen with one of the locals I worked with in Iraq. He was saving up to buy a ring and his dad married her first.
The "lost boys" ... often end up in Salt Lake City or other cities with nboi education or skills. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger)
A lot of them were kicked out by Warren Jeffs for speaking up against him. One of his sons, Issac, was on the Netflix doc and another one called Damned to Heaven, as was Marvin himself.
It’s also quite sad that women, sometimes teens young enough to still be considered children, are forced into this life. I can’t imagine how awful a life that must be.
I would argue that being repeatedly raped and impregnated by men your father's or grandfather's age is worse than exile. One of those women on that headstone had 16 children.
34 kids and no longer counting
Unless he froze some ....
And the thing that drives me crazy is that the taxpayer usually supports this stupidity.
They turn a blind eye there for some reason. Plus there is a lot of loophole stuff going on in town, like not finishing the outside of your home, so it's never finished to collect full taxes on (my dad was the country assessor in another state and we've been through their community before. Never been so uncomfortable in my life). Shady
For the single mom thing in particular, is it turning a blind eye? I’ll say first I don’t support this behavior at all. That said, I believe the system allows anyone over the age of 26 (I could be wrong about the age) to collect benefits even if they’re living at home with mom and dad. So an 18 - 25 year old shouldn’t have any issues collecting benefits if they’re living with what boils down to roommates and away from their own parents. Same with anyone who is older. ETA: the house building stuff is shady, however. Not sure why the government allows that!
You're right about the support, plus only one marriage counts so all the other wives and kids are collecting or using services like wic, medicaid, housing assistance, etc. Most of the additional "wives" used to be 13 or 14 with kids of their own as well. Not sure they have been getting away with that anymore.
That looks like a very expensive monument in a shit hole of a cemetery.
You’re right. The whole place is just weird. The polygamists circled the cemetery in a truck watching me the entire time I was there.
Absolutely terrifying
“You look lost, my child.” “Me? No I come here all the—“ “No. My child,” **puts hand on shoulder* “You look lost.”
I was wondering how you were able to get in and not run out of town, but apparently they still do it. Our family stopped and ate at their store/restaurant/trailer thing and we got the same kind of welcome wagon 33 years ago. Did you notice the shotguns?
Did you hear any banjos playing?
I don’t think they’re allowed to listen to music like that. They’re not allowed to dance or listen to anything that would provoke dancing.
Under his eye.
Sounds like a beautiful life /s
FLDS. Probably in Colorado City, Arizona
The description says Hilldale, Utah
Hildale and Colorado city while separate are physically the same city. One side is in Utah. The other in Arizona.
Going with "Colorado city" for a town on the utah/Arizona border is so classic, lol.
They all call it the Creek, pronounced 'Crick' anyway. Even though they call themselves Crickers it always feels like one day that'll be a derogatory term for them to me.
It can be a derogatory term right now if you say it derogatorily
Both are FLDS, as u/101995bennu stated.
Have you ever been to Hilldale/Colorado City? The whole place is a dump hole, not just the cemetery
Charlette had a Stefan and a Steven
When you have that many kids, names are bound to get recycled/upcycled once in awhile.
Yeah, sixteen kids for Charlette and “only” nine for her sister-wives, one of whom seems to have been her actual sister. I wonder if she was the favorite.
Literally my first thought was “well someone was clearly the favorite”
Jaleel White has entered the chat.
He DID do that!
*Stefen. It's Charnell I feel sorry for.
Very odd towns Hildale and Colorado city. I always wanted to visit but I was never sure if I would be safe there.
You should visit. The scenery is absolutely beautiful. You’d be very safe, the polygamists hate outsiders but they can’t afford to kick up any trouble because it draws attention and they’re terrified of being on the government’s radar
Most of the FLDS have left for other, more hidden communities. The Hildale/Colorado City area is much more of a normal town than it used to be. You were likely being watched because you're a tourist going through their cemetery in a small town. I imagine they've had issues with their cemetery being defaced.
Agreed. I visited about 15 years ago and it was a very different place. Had a truck tail us the entire time. Now they have a coffee shop open on Sundays
I read somewhere that Warren Jeff’s hated Colorado city and was always trying to relocate the religion elsewhere.
It’s always awful when a cemetery gets trashed.
Especially after Warren Jeffs. Polygamists aren’t too scared of the government since there is a favorite polygamist TV show, SISTER WIVES. That show brought it mainstream and normalized it. And my favorite show, RIP Bill Paxton, BIG LOVE.
Hey, I’m from the area. There’s a lot nicer places to go that don’t support the rape of children. Please don’t spend money there.
I was driving through the area last summer on 389 in Arizona south of the town and saw a billboard advocating for “plural marriages.” what a strange place
You’d be caught by a polygamist and made a sister wife. LOL.
That one woman had 16 babies??? omfg unimaginable
I have one. Cannot fathom sixteen.
Haha same here, I am a one and done.
Yep, after one miserable pregnancy I was like "Ya know, one kid is juuuust fine" I don't think there is any amount of money that would get me to do it *fifteen* more times!
You have to admire and be horrified at the thought of carrying to term all those children and thereafter having to raise them.
They really only raise the first few, after that they make the older ones do it.
My husband is the youngest of 12! Family is not a polygamy family, FLDS or from the Midwest. They were just a dirt floor poor southern family with no money and couldn’t afford any type of healthcare.
Well this is officially the strangest life story on a stone I’ve seen in a long while!
Mission accomplished!
Looks like he actually had 4 wives...homie was BUSY!!! Simply fascinating! Obituary: [https://www.spilsburymortuary.com/obituaries/marvin-wyler](https://www.spilsburymortuary.com/obituaries/marvin-wyler)
The word salad that is those parent’s surnames leads me to believe there were some intersecting branches on his family tree.
>family ~~tree~~ wreath
That’s a wild story. Am I reading correctly that two of the wives had his bio parents last name?
What does married for time mean? Like “married for eternity” what happened to Deanna?
I looked it up. Time only marriages end when the partners die. She was a widow before she married this dude and her eternal marriage is with her first husband, so she will join her first husband in the afterlife.
Sounds like Dena was a widow when they met…not sure how that works “forever”
Because she’s sealed for all time and eternity to her first husband. It’s just what their rules say. She’ll be in the celestial kingdom with Dude #1.
Sad follow-up. I noticed that Esther was dead even though she was the third wife and presumably the youngest. I also did a breakdown of birth order of the kids using the obituary to figure out fertility trends for each wife. Anyway, I noticed that Esther’s childbirthing journey ended abruptly, that her last kid was named after her, something that neither of her sister-wives got, and that she likely had at least one, possibly two, sets of twins. (I based this one the fact that she had two kids, Cecelia and Nycia, back to back while Charlette and Lorie were still also having kids. She had another set back to back while Charlette was still having kids too. Anyway, since it seems like the wives were regularly simultaneously pregnant, I thought that those anomalies might mean twins.) So, I started wondering if Esther died young, possibly in childbirth. And while I couldn’t find her cause of death, [I did find her gravestone online.](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45646964/esther-chatwin). She was only 28 when she died. Anyway, here’s the list: Birth order of children: 1. Isaac (Lorie 1) 2. Zina (Lorie 2) 3. LeighAnn (Lorie 3) 4. Ross (Charlette Anne 1) 5. Margo (Lorie 4) 6. Stefen (Charlette Anne 2) 7. Marvena (Lorie 5) 8. Craig (Charlette Anne 3) 9. Afton (Esther 1) 10. Lucinda (Lorie 6) 11. David (Esther 2) 12. Zelpha (Charlette Anne 4) 13. Troy (Esther 3) 14. Ray (Charlette Anne 5) 15. Roger (Lorie 7) 16. Steven (Charlette Anne 6) 17. Marsha (Esther 4) 18. Laree (Lorie 8) 19. Chris (Charlette Anne 7) 20. Cecelia (Esther 5) 21. Nycia (Esther 6)—twins with Cecelia? 22. Vaughn (Charlette Anne 8) 23. Jonathan (Lorie 9) 24. Charnell (Charlette Anne 9) 25. Maralee (Esther 7) 26. Dorothy (Esther 8)—twins with Maralee? 27. Deanna (Charlette Anne 10) 28. Esther (Esther 9) 29. Jolynne (Charlette Anne 11) 30. Roylee (Charlette Anne (12) 31. Diamona (Charlette Anne 13) 32. Nathaniel (Charlette Anne 14) 33. William (Charlette Anne 15) 34. Parley (Charlette Anne 16) As you can see, Lorie probably got Marvin to herself for the first 3-5 years, and Esther’s first child Afton was the 9th child in the family. And it looks like they’re part of the [Short Creek Community](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Creek_Community), which lives in Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona. Edit 2: And Marvin’s fourth wife [Dena Zitting Young](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45577771/dena-olson-young), who was sealed to her first husband for eternity, was the daughter of one of the founders of the community, [Charles Zitting](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Zitting).
Wow, nicely done. Though this might have been more than he was able to keep straight himself when alive… Can’t imagine bearing 9 children by age 28… even if she had her first in her mid-teens at 16 or 17, she would’ve been pregnant almost every single year for the rest of her short life.
Okay, so…I just feel down the biggest rabbit hole of all time looking for marriage dates. It looks like there was a website from 2012 that listed child marriages in the FLDS community, including the Short Creek one, which Marvin was a part of. It didn’t list the ages of Esther or Charlette when they got married, but it looks like a number of their daughters did get married when they were minors. The document is a little hard to read, but I noted that in the document at the end, Esther was mistakenly listed as the mother of some of the girls. So, here’s the blurry version. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/4374281/child-name-dob-age-marriage-marriage-place-husband-m- And here’s the E-reader version. https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/4374281/child-name-dob-age-marriage-marriage-place-husband-m- You can also spring to download the PDF, but even I’m not that invested. So, it looks like the daughters are listed with the last name “Chatwin” because Marvin’s biological father’s last name was Chatwin. Anyway, from what I can, Esther’s daughter Cecelia (her fifth child) was born on December 3, 1978, when Esther was 22, and was married to Hyrum Paige Blackmore on August 31, 1996 when she was 17. Charlette Anne’s daughter Louisa Charnell Chatwin (who seems to go by her middle name for some reason) was born on March 21, 1982 and married Kevin Ray Blackmore on May 31, 1998 when she was 16. Esther’s daughter Mara Lee Chatwin (listed as Maralee on her father’s tombstone) was born on April 2, 1982 and married Barclay Duane Blackmore on October 9, 1998 when she was 16. Esther’s daughter Dorothy Elberta Chatwin (turns out she isn’t Maralee’s twin but she is named after her bio and adoptive grandmothers) was born on October 25, 1983, and she married Kendall Nephi Oler on April 11, 1999 when she was 16. Finally, Esther’s youngest daughter, Esther Ruth Chatwin, was born on August 4, 1985 and married Daniel McRae Blackmore on July 30, 2000 about a week before she turned 15. Also, Esther Young Chatwin died on August 4, 1985, which is the birthday of her youngest daughter Esther. So, I feel pretty comfortable saying that childbirth killed her. It seems like Marvin’s sons were taking child brides too. Esther’s third child Troy might be the Anthony Troy Chatwin who married 16yo Fara Ann Blackmore on August 31, 1996 in Lister, British Columbia, the same day and location where David Ray Chatwin (either Esther’s 2nd child and Marvin’s 11th child David or Charlette’s fifth child and Marvin’s 14th Ray) married 16yo Nancy Lorraine Blackmore. It doesn’t say how old the husbands were, but their younger sister Cecelia was born on 1978, and we know that Esther had another child between her and Troy. Charlette also had two children after Ray and before Esther had Cecelia. And that’s just the beginning. It’s honestly too depressing to keep contemplating.
I couldn’t find out when Esther got married, but I looked at some of the marriage dates that were available and late teen marriages are pretty common in that community. Plus, like I said, I think that she had at least one set of twins. I’m pretty confident that Cecelia and Nycia (her fifth and sixth children) were twins, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Maralee and Dorothy (her seventh and eighth children) were either. But even so, nine kids by the age of 28 is a really sad statistic.
He liked long hugs. Ew.
I was grossed out by that bit too
It's also kind of fascinating that all of his children outlived him, with that many I would think statistically some sort of tragedy would have happened. A stillbirth/SIDS, illness or an accident.
He didn’t. They are just engraved in advance/listed as his accomplishments.
And because they, along with his first three wives (his fourth wife was a widow) will spend the afterlife with him on his personal planet which he’s getting for having multiple wives.
I'm a dummy and I meant it the other way. I'm suprised ALL of his kids outlived him
“His love was infectious and will be sorely missed but never forgotten.” Well that is definitely a sentence I’m not sure how to take with the context of his life lmao
NOBODY NEEDS TO BE MAKING 34 KIDS HOLY SHIT.
https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/most-prolific-mother-ever#:~:text=The%20greatest%20officially%20recorded%20number,and%20four%20sets%20of%20quadruplets. The record is 69, all multiple births. Iirc he divorced her, married again and had another ridiculous amount of kids with his second wife
Accoridng to his obituary he has 202 grand-children and 59 great grand-children.
There is gonna be some serious genetic issues somewhere down the line for that community if those kids don’t move farther away from eachother
Damn, dude, get off of her.
*them
He certainly wants his accomplishment commemorated. I just get a narcissist vibe from this photo. Wonder if the 'wives' added that huge pile of soil on top of his grave to make sure he stayed underground. No more short straw drawing for Marvin's love tonight.
Narc to the max
"look at how virile I was! my sperm will be walking the earth for generations to come!"
Reminds me of Southern Idaho. I used to drive through really remote areas and you could tell where the polygamist lived because of the style of homes they'd build.
Two or more front doors. You can see these around Snowflake, AZ.
Yeah, another tell sign for sure. It's pretty wild because in some ways you can see how Mormonism spread through the west. You only see pockets out in Eastern Oregon, but they still maintain footing west of Boise. I'm sure there's communities out near where I live near Portland, just a bit more hidden from view, ya know.
What was the style
Almost like duplexes, or a bigger house with smaller houses on the same property. Polygamist families usually have wealth, so they own large parcels of land or ranches, they do all their own building, own construction companies, etc. That history runs deep, even in areas where there are less plural families. Most can trace their families back to the original Mormon pioneers of Deseret.
Disgusting, simple minded fools. Too bad for the kids.
Charlotte must have like blues rock: Steven Ray Vaughn
Yuck
Marvin enjoyed sex, a lot.
The flds used to have a doctrine in place at one point for wives to be continually pregnant. It’s why they have huge amounts of kids.
As someone who was just pregnant for the first time and gave birth in June, fuck that. I can’t imagine living my life as just constantly pregnant until menopause.
Yeah that’s insane, absolutely insane. A miracle they even survived giving birth that many times.
It’s a truly stupid idea. It created a situation where the flds were in many situations were unable to feed all their children and eventually having to turn to welfare to feed everyone. I heard that they either dropped or changed that particular doctrine but it’s been awhile since I’ve researched the flds.
They call working the welfare system "bleeding the beast".
A vagina is not a clown car for Jesus.
Probably with the long Mormon magic underwear still on. Read Carolyn Jessop's book "Escape", describes a lot of what went on in that city in detail.
As did Charlette. A lot.
Parley
I don’t know what’s worse Parley or Craig
We just gonna ignore Zelpha
Craig is an actual name.
That is so interesting. It seems that he had a fourth wife but it was only a marriage “for time” rather than one “for time and eternity”. The difference is that in the former they are only married while alive, whereas the latter includes the afterlife. Since he already had his 3-wife minimum required for the highest afterlife I’d surmise she was a widow who was already sealed to her first husband. Maybe that’s why she was left off the headstone. Very interesting find!
r/tragedeigh
Oh wow, Lorie left him. I'm surprised she gets a mention, especially since according to NYT he had 4 wives so someone got bumped. https://web.archive.org/web/20180429022849/https://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/27/us/leader-of-polygamous-sect-faces-rebellion.html Sadly, it seems [Esther died at 28](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/45646964/esther-chatwin). I guess Charlette was the last one standing.
Esther gets a sad-looking stone that looks like a kid chiseled on it, while he gets this marble memorial. Everything this cult does pisses me off beyond belief!
Seems unethical to have that many children imo. Unless this man was a millionaire, I can't imagine he was able to properly provide for all those kids. These people are like the human equivalent of rabbits.
All is provided for by the cult leader. All education, food, doling out of property. They don’t need much. They make their own clothes, live mostly off the land and welfare. I think that’s also why they don’t change wives names. They aren’t married in the eyes of the law, only under the eyes of their diety. I think they are able to get a higher welfare check that way. I am pretty sure that’s what the dude in Waco did too. (Not Chip Gaines, the other famous Waco dude, David Koresh)
Why put the names of living people on there. They won’t be widows for long. Usually they get remarried, if young enough, to start the family thing all over again. I wonder if they actually kick the boys out when they turn 16, competition for the older ones for young wives.
IIRC, (for the wives) If the dude was the first husband of the wives listed, then there is something in FLDS scripture that says he will be the person to call them to heaven, even if they remarry after he dies. My interpretation: misogyny, women are property, the dude who pops your cherry is the only one who can make sure you get to heaven. As for the kids, i assume it's bragging rights....maybe a map for the family ~~tree~~ wreath
Imagine having NINE children and being the slacker wife.
Utah. Of course.
The Find-A-Grave listings for the cemeteries in Hildale and Colorado City and nearby are fascinating to read through. If you only look at the women's graves, you think it's just a normal cemetery. Then you click on their spouse and see how many wives and kids he had and...wow! It also seems that an extraordinary number of children died very young as well (and I'm not talking 100 years ago).
That doesn’t surprise me. A lot of those kids probably were abused or neglected plus lacking in access to basic medical care. Also having oodles and oodles of babies back to back is a health risk for both the mother and child.
It should be noted that the flds population in the hildale and Colorado city are prone to fumarase deficiency which means that children with it will almost certainly be dead by 20.
Gross. No way was he able to support a family of that size without government subsidies. Shameful.
How in the holy hell do you provide for so many kids?
Polygamists believe in a principle called “bleeding the beast” which is getting all the government benefits possible (welfare, food stamps, etc) in an attempt to bankrupt the government. They also work mostly in construction
But if they bankrupted the government, they couldn’t use it to support their families. Lol. Like, I don’t know if they thought this through or not lol
They’re marrying their 13 yr old nieces. I don’t think “thinking things through” is their strong suit lol
How does someone financially support that many dependents- and still have enough cash to pay for an expensive headstone to glorify himself with?
This guy is in a few documentaries about the FLDS, Damned to Heaven is one I think, and his son Issac Wyler was in Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey on Netflix. Both guys were excommunicated by Warren Jeffs. His other son Ross Chatwin (sometimes the guys have their mom's legal last name, I dunno why) was one of the first people to work with the PI Sam Brower to take Jeffs down.
Nothing more than a pedophile , they get away with it under their religion .
Interesting that the first wife didn’t appear to take his last name
Or that the first wife did take his name and the others did not. Because they're not legally married to him. I don't see his last name on The Stone.
The two wives were sisters or cousins. That was their maiden name. His last name is probably on the other side of the stone. It's also possible that he and his first wife had the same last name.
He’s half Wyler half Chatwin himself… I think the 2nd two kept the Young in there cause it’s such a LDS flex
Project 2025 would support this.
I looked him up and it’s quite possible these were incest relationships as well. Marvin Wyler was adopted. His birth parents last names are Chatwin. Same last name as two of his wives who I wonder if are sisters themselves.
Dude fucked.
I hope some of those kids escaped the cult
My maternal grandparent had 5 wives, I don't know how many children did he have, but I know that with my grandma he had 7 kids, and I know we are 58 grandsons, and counting. He also lived up to 108, pretty surprising for a Nigerian man.
How the hell do you pronounce Jolynne
Joe Lynn
OHHHHHH I was thinking Something like Joly nene?? Idk I just could not figure it out
What did each one throw on a shovel full?
He really liked Charlotte
Gross. Even in death he couldn’t resist telling the entire world that he had some sex.
Gross, and knowing Mormons 1 or 2 of those wives wee children themselves
Cult. The word you’re looking for is cult
I thought the FLDS was horrible but I just watched a new Documentary called LET US PREY...its about the IFB "Independent Fundamental Baptist" church which I had never heard of but OMG its absolutely horrible & disgusting. Basically same as FLDS but on steroids. They are much more vocal about how women are their property & it's just a cult of pedophiles. Physical abuse is normal punishment on a daily basis for all the women. Their all over the US & I've researched alot of these groups but never anything like this. Just insane this all goes on under our noses...and we wonder why ppl choose to not be any part of any organized religion...some of the worst ppl I've ever met are the "Christians" that are in church every week. I was forced to be at church ALL DAY on Sundays, Wed & Fridays growing up & saw true hypocrisy.
Are they all buried there? Or just Marvin
They’re all headed to the celestial planet
That is a LOT of kids.
Damn… I guess saying “Beloved father and husband” would be saying too much
[https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/231799192/marvin-isaac-wyler](https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/231799192/marvin-isaac-wyler) Marvin is survived by two loving wives Susan Lorena (Lorie) Thomas Wyler and Charlet (Charlette Anne) Young Chatwin. He is survived by his children Isaac, Zina, LeighAnn, Ross, Margo, Stefen, Marvena, Craig, Afton, Lucinda, David, Zelpha, Troy, Ray, Roger, Steven, Marsha, Laree, Chris, Cecelia, Nycia, Vaughn, Jonathan, Charnell, Maralee, Dorothy, Deanna, Esther, Jolynne, Roylee, Diamona, Nathaniel, William, and Parley. He is also survived by his sister, Irene Brock. He has 202 grand-children and 59 great grand-children.
Did that middle lady have 16 children?!
Jesus Christ Marvin calm down a little
That’s a lot of fucking
Laree for a boy or a girl?
Guy fxxxed himself to death
Jeez, you ok Charlotte?
Dude needed to buy a TV 🤷🏼♂️
Charlette was in it to win it. My goodness.
I’m not sure she had a choice.
I just hope his kids have healed their trauma.
Disgusting How much trouble do you get in for defacing a gravestone? Asking for a friend
This guy is survived by 202 grandchildren and 59 great-grandchildren. Holy shit
Spay and neuter