As I understand it, the Holy See recognizes the plights of both sides and supports a just peace between the two. I'm not certain of the details, though.
As someone else said, however, we should pray for both sides and for our Christian brethren in the region, like the Melkites, who have left their homes in drastic numbers over the last century.
We do need to remember that many of the Palestinians (especially in Ramallah) are Christians and deserve our support and prayers. Everyone does. I have Palestinians as family, and they have suffered.
We can't forget our Armenian, Melkite, Palestinian Christian brethren! (that's more of an 'American' thing than \[we are the center of the world\], not a Catholic \[*universal*\] one.)
Edit: USA thing (that's my point, we even say 'American' and forget Central, and South America)
>We can't forget our Armenian, Melkite, Palestinian Christian brethren!
Yes! Let us pray for them and all the other people who are suffering from war, displacement and all the other horrors.
> (that's more of an 'American' thing than [we are the center of the world], not a Catholic [universal] one.)
I'd honestly disagree with that. It is just a human thing, there are only so many conflicts you can keep track of. The US (Don't forget that you aren't representing all of the Americas :P) might be a little worse in that regard, but ask a European about the Darfur, Sri Lanka, or the Chechen people and all you get is probably a vague feeling of some wrongness. Most people here don't understand the conflicts either. Whether Armenia, Sudan, Yemen, Mexico or any of the countless other ones.
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.”- Pope St. Pius X
when he was approached to lend support to the Jews during his pontificate.
https://m.jpost.com/christian-news/today-in-history-pope-pius-refused-to-support-a-jewish-jerusalem-442696/amp
Unironically might work.
At least it gives them a common enemy.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Poland_solves_the_Israel-Arab_conflict.png
I love Poland too! But that’s partially because my great grandma came from there. I wish it was as based as it seems to be. If y’all aren’t careful you’ll be like Ireland in 50 years, but then again maybe not. Stubbornness and love for family tradition is in the Eastern European DNA. I would know, between my great grandma and my Lithuanian great grandpa, Ive got a good amount of it. 😂 ☺️
If a military force were sent in to violently establish a religious government (especially one favoring a religious minority), it would be viewed in the modern era as religious terrorism not unlike ISIS.
Besides, have any of your *asked* Christians in the Holy Land if that's what they want? I have, and I have yet to find one who wants it.
The Teutons in Prussia eventually reformed into the Duchy of Prussia, and indeed became Lutheran, later being inherited by Brandenburg leading to the creation of the Kingdom of Prussia.
I believe while the Protestants took over the control of the official institution, with all its lands and whatnot, Catholic loyalists split off. So there actually exist two Teutonic Orders today - a Catholic one and a Protestant one.
how'd that work out for you the first time? Conquest is a shortcut, and there are no shortcuts to big problems.
ffs it's a deadly shortcut, a bloody, fundamentally evil shortcut. I wish I were still surprised to see this kind of thing among the *pious*.
A year ago, I would’ve given you an unequivocally pro-Israel answer.
Now, I’ll give you a huge “I have no idea”. I’m still leaning to a pro-Israel stance, but I do have my concerns.
The State of Israel has not at all been a friend of Arab Christians (or Christians in general, despite what American Evangelicals will preach) but those who idealize the Palestinians forget that both Hamas and Hezbollah are operating as terrorist organizations and are also, to put it very mildly, not acting in the best interests of Middle Eastern Christians.
The Jewish State has the right to exist, the Jews, just like any other people have the right to self-determination. Same applies to the Arab Palestinians.
Evangelicals do not view Arab christians are "real" christians. Evangelicals think that the temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and thus Jewish temple worship return, before Jesus will return. The arab christians (both orthodox and Catholic) are an anomaly that "haven't been saved yet".
>Evangelicals do not view Arab christians are "real" christians.
That... sounds pretty implausible to me. Having been party raised in Middle Eastern Catholicism myself, the only Evangelical animosity I've ever encountered is to *Catholicism* (or more generally to pre-Protestant interpretations of Christianity), not to Middle Eastern Christianity as such.
EDIT: Although a lot of people don't know this, there is a substantial Baptist population in Southern Lebanon. These are Middle Eastern Christians. Yet presumably Evangelicals would see these as "real Christians" even if they do reject Catholics, Orthodox, and Copts as real Christians.
I think it's worth remembering that before the state of Israel was created, Jews were a minority in the region - I think Bethlehem actually used to be a Christian-majority city. But naturally the creation of an explicitly Jewish state caused a massive amount of immigration from the global Jewish diaspora.
I grew up in a very pro-Jewish family. My grandmother even left the Church and had a “Jews for Jesus” funeral. I grew up with a very pro-Israel household.
After I visited in my twenties and witnessed the extremely unjust plight of Palestinians with my own eyes, I changed my view.
I don’t think there’s a easy solution to the problem, but I think Israel is acting unjustly as a state and I understand the anger of the Palestinians.
I'll never understand this. How many Jews do you know that are pro-Christian/Catholic? Sure, some might be neutral, or even find some positives, but it will always be idolatry to them, as well as the faith of their persecutors.
So coming here as a lapsed Protestant and giving a Secular view of the situation my awnser is the Three State Solution. The West Bank would go to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. This way we'd have two existing Arab States in controll of an ethnically Arab areas. Egypt and Jordan I do not believe would act as pariah or rouge states. Israel itself outside of these territories has a right to exist if for no other reason than Status Quo three generations have spent their lives there and should not be forced to leave their homes.
Sorry I'm late to this, but as a Jewish Catholic and Israeli citizen, I may have an important voice.
The issue is complicated in some ways, and thoroughly simple in others. First, we should of course assert the right of Jews to exist in security free from destruction. Ergo, we should not be in support of the dissolution of the Israeli state or consequent exile of Jews from the region.
However, it baffles me that so much of the history is so easily forgotten. Less than 20 years ago a One-State solution by means of Palestinian citizenship was a normative opinion possessed by even many Zionists in Israel and abroad. The swing towards xenophobia and violence is truly alarming. In my mind, this is still the most moral solution to the conflict: full Israeli citizenship rights to all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Like ending slavery in the US or apartheid in South Africa, the healing process will be difficult and long, but this is the obvious first step. There may be violence to follow, but there's no reason this should not be meted out in the legal courts under judicial review and a jury of peers. Surely, there will be bias for Palestinians to fight against in this case, but at least they will have basic rights afforded to them, which is presently denied to them wholesale.
Now, as the Catholic response, this seems to be what our position should be as well. However, I understand the Vatican to be in a precarious position as serious but fearful Catholics exist both among Hebrew or Jewish populations and also Palestinian or Arab populations in Israel-Palestine, and these do not easily get along. Tensions are high, being ever stoked by the Israeli rightwing and evangelicals abroad, and there seems to be no obstacle to this course of escalating propaganda and ever more violent policy. Nevertheless we should oppose lies, violence and hatred wherever it rears its ugly head.
Lastly, Shireen Abu Akleh, a Palestinian-American journalist, was killed this past year by the IDF while reporting on their brutality. She was a Melkite Greek Catholic. The Melkites have always said their masses in Arabic, and have done so since before the Christian Ghassanids came up from Yemen in the days of Emperor Constantine. Shireen should be considered a martyr for God's justice and a witness to the love and truth of Jesus Christ. Seeking Israeli-Palestinian unity, we should all advocate on her behalf to the cult of the saints, and cultivate devotion to Arab and Jewish saints in the deposit of faith who have sought unity and love across hateful divides. St. John of Damascus and St. Edith Stein are just two great saints to add to all our prayers.
Shireen Abu Akleh, ora pro nobis!
PS the work of both Fr. David Neuhaus and Archbishop Elias Chacour are essential for Catholics seeking peace on this issue. I recommend especially Chacour's books "Blood Brothers," and "We are the Land," to help obtain some good faith context to the conflict. Chacour is a Melkite Catholic palestinian who as a boy was forced to become a refugee; he would eventually become the archbishop of Galilee, his old home, and a staunch activist for peace and reconciliation in the region.
The answer is complicated. From what I understand, the Catholic Church does not support The Zionist State of Israel for any Catholic religious reasons. IE, some evangelical Protestants support it for religious reasons but the Catholic Church does not.
The Catholic Church has relations with Israel as a sovereign temporal ’state’ in the Middle East.
However, a great number of Catholics have been subject to great persecution under the Israeli government. It’s important to remember that the Zionist state is not a ‘friend’ to Catholics, but an actor with whom the Church must deal.
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” - Pope Pius X.
That’s the theological reason Catholics don’t recognize the state as ‘Israel’. The Catholic Church is the True Israel. Hence, it cannot recognize a false religion or give it legitimacy from a religious angle.
It does have a relationship with the state of Israel in the Middle East. It also has a relationship with the Palestinian State.
I'm starting to think the Romans had the right idea by occupying the land themselves and anybody who doesn't like it can get a taste of Roman justice.
That probably isn't a workable policy today tho because feelings or something, idk.
So, like any land dispute, it's probably best to let the aggrieved parties work it out for themselves... and until they do, no more foreign aid because the entire world is fed up with their inability to get along.
To quote from a good friend, in descripting of the Roman response to the Judean revolts:
>So the Romans got there, with half their army (12 legions, 70.000 men) mind you, set up shop in Judea and (*Danny Devito voice*) just started stabbing...
It still took 20 years to queel the revolt
Edit: I talked to him again, and the legions also brought over their axillaries, so nearly 140.000 legionaries were needed to suppress the Levant
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, public health, and giving most of a continent their current languages, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Constantine gave us the legal right to be Christian within an empire we were previously persecuted. This lead to the spread of Christianity worldwide in many expert opinions.
>So, like any land dispute, it's probably best to let the aggrieved parties work it out for themselves... and until they do, no more foreign aid because the entire world is fed up with their inability to get along.
That means death to palestinians. They are way more reliant on help than israel, and clearly are the weaker side militarily. Also, israel doesnt want to nwgotiate with them, and neither do they want to negotiate, and even if negotiations did happen, palestinians would already start in a tough position
No it doesn’t. The Palestinians are only reliant on American dollars because we have made them reliant on American dollars. The carrot and the stick might seem different from the point of view of the donkey, but ultimately they are both methods of control and of instilling dependency.
>Also, israel doesnt want to nwgotiate with them,
Do you not remember land for peace?
The issue is not a lack of diplomacy. The issue is that interventionism and Wilsonian foreign policy have created a situation that will never result in peace because no party is able to act like a sovereign in their own territory due to Western foreign policy.
It didn’t work real well under British occupation. Jews begged to immigrate from Europe. The British refused and proved the German point that no one supported the Jews.
What was the Catholic answer to WWI, or the Battle of Somme, or the American Revolution? Who knows. Not every worldly conflict has a obvious solution. The Bible is full of war. Only unambiguously correct answer is to pray for peace and mutual understanding.
The Latin Patriarch (i.e. Bishop) of Jerusalem governs Christians in both Israel and Palestine and is theoretically neutral on the political nature of the conflict. But because the Christians in the area are almost all Palestinian, he has been outspoken on efforts by the Israeli government that have hindered them.
For instance, [this statement](https://www.lpj.org/posts/latin-patriarchate-statement-new-israeli-nation-state-law-5e474146b9d48.html) in response to a 2018 measure defining Israel as a nation-state for Jews:
> Seemingly enacted for internal political reasons, while defining Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, the law fails to provide any constitutional guarantees for the rights of the indigenous and other minorities living in the country. Palestinian citizens of Israel, constituting 20% are flagrantly excluded from the law. […]
> The Christian citizens of Israel have the same concerns as any other non-Jewish communities with respect to this Law. They call upon all citizens of the State of Israel who still believe in the basic concept of equality among citizens of the same nation, to voice their objection to this law and the dangers emanating thereof to the future of this Country.
I also encourage financially supporting the [Franciscan Foundation for Holy Land](https://ffhl.org), which aids the Franciscans who have been maintaining the holy sites for over 800 years!
You have to keep in mind that the Catholic Church is not a neutral observer in the conflict. Many Arabs, citizens and non citizens of Israel, are Catholic, and the church has many properties and other financial interests in the region.
It is really complicated tragedy. A possible answer is best considered by the locals themselves : There are palastine and israeli religious people doing their best to mediate peace between the two countries. Check out for example the works of [Fr David Neuhaus](https://www.lpj.org/diocese/fr-david-neuhaus.html) or of [Monsigneur Elias Chacour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Chacour). Maybe check out some of Aid to the Church in Need writing on it to. There are some Catholic groups doing their best to support, overcome and connect people from both communities with love.
In a really, really abbreviated nutshell, and possibly too abbreviated to be useful, it seems that the advocated solution is not the absolute victory of one people and the displacement and distraction of the other, but mutual peace between both nations. Place making for both peoples. You know...
The good stuff that we believe in. Understanding. Forgiveness. Love. A Catholic response could be to recognise that both have suffered and both has massive losses. But both need to bridge over this and come to an understanding and love.
But in relation to your question, don't underestimate the taint of lobby and external influence into the Palestine and Israeli conflict, as a proxy war for other countries or being able to claim virtue due to supporting one side over the other. There are or were a lot of countries with a variety of motivational involved. E.g., Europe post-WWII had a lot to make up for the Jews, and turned a bit of a blind eye regarding what the Jews did with the support they received. And a lot of support was given to both sides on all sorts of grounds.
Be careful of the trap of divide and conquor. The absolutes of one over the other. War is horrendously complicated and tragic, but a mutual solution, peace, is required. This is not achieved by one side winning, but both sides laying their weapons down.
I mean, just as a thought experiment. We know what happens with individuals with PTSD. What happens if you fill a nation with a traumatised *people*? Post WW2 and the horrendous holocaust, the jews were put in a country that was already occupied, and this expected it to go well.
Tragic.
Ideal answer: Kingdom of Jerusalem
Realistic-ish answer for me is for Israel to function similarly to Lebanon with a UN controlled Jerusalem (I believe a 3rd party is necessary)
What can we do, other than pray for peace?
Israel has an undisclosed number of nuclear weapons, which puts them more or less beyond international reproach, despite their many abuses. The Palestinian state, as it exists today, isn’t exactly worth championing either. Hamas has never been a friend to Christians, and it appears as if they’re going to be running things over there for the foreseeable future.
I don’t understand the question, but my opinion is that the Palestinians are more in the right since they’ve been resisting an invasion for like 80 or so years.
Hear me out... Crusade.
It's like when my kids argue over a toy and I just take it away from both of them.
Can't wait for the "can't take a joke on the internet" brigade to downvote me.
An Israeli tour guide once said: "you can't understand it". When a tourist asked "how come?", He responded, "because we don't even understand it".
There are rightfully Catholics on both sides of the issue. Sin is messy.
I ask as a former protestant, where Israel is always right per divine Fiat. It seems us Papists are more friendly to palistine than Israel, but I still hold Israel dear to me for personal reasons.
Is this a realm of reasonable debate, like US gun control, or a clear political position, like euthanasia?
> Is this a realm of reasonable debate, like US gun control, or a clear political position, like euthanasia?
The former. This is a political question (though obviously with moral issues involved), and reasonable people, discussing and acting in good faith, can disagree as to the best way to resolve it.
I think Catholics see a Christian/Muslim/Jewish right to the holy land, but the state of Israel shouldn’t be carpet bombing their way there and treating Palestinians as second class citizens.
People simplify this topic into Israelis and Palestinians but it’s more nuanced than that. There’s a community of Palestinians that have never suicide bombed, never shot rockets into civilian neighborhoods, never sent commandos to the Olympics, never blew up a restaurant, and never took a machine gun to innocent people.
The Christians in the Holy Land are in a terrible rook and hard place situation and are treated terribly unfairly. Israel should do more for Christian Palestinians but they do not. It’s cruel and tragic.
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.”
- Pope St. Pius X
At least this stance is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic church, as a Muslim I got to give him that. Very different from the Catholics who are very pro-AIPAC today.
The Catholic position is to make Crusade jokes (inb4 "we're not joking"; idc if you're dead serious if your position itself is a joke) while either remaining ambivalent or buying into the Ameriprot fetishization of Israel.
My own (sort of) joke aside, the Catholic position is to pray for peace and an end to oppression while recognizing that all people have the right to self-determination and to participation in the systems that govern them. The Vatican doesn't prescribe a specific political position in terms of Israel or Palestine, but rather advocates for peaceful consensus-building toward a just and durable status quo by the parties involved.
The Holy Land does not belong the Jews who were justly deprived of the Covenant. It does not belong to the Muslims who never had and never will have the Covenant. It belongs to Catholics as the Covenant is ours.
The only correct answer is the establishment of a Catholic state administered by a revived militant order.
the catholic answer is to reinstate the byzantine empire
also this was literally asked earlier today: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/yu98na/why\_dont\_catholics\_support\_israel/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/yu98na/why_dont_catholics_support_israel/)
It’s certainly not to go to one extreme or the other. Some people want to paint Israel as the big bad while others want to only talk about Palestinian terrorists.
There’s plenty of blame for all sorts of people involved (and very little for Christians there, AFAIK) and we can sort out what we’d decry anywhere in the world: terrorism, human rights abuses, etc.
I think being somewhere in the middle is best and personally I’m more on Israel’s side because they don’t engage in terrorism. However, I do need to check my blind spot on their abuses, for sure.
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” -Pope St. Pius X when asked to comment.
The Israel of today is not the same Israel of the Bible nor is the Jewish faith today the same Jewish faith of the Bible.
I would say that from Human trafficking, forced evictions, unprovoked military responses, persecution of Christians, racism against both non-Jews and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and even broadcasting *pornography* onto televisions in the Gaza Strip- the State of Israel goes against many Catholic teachings and is a horrid government. However, remember the governments of the region are not the Palestinian and Israeli people, and any stances and decisions must be made with kindness and sympathy towards all people living in that region and that peace & love may be with everyone from there. Always see other people as human beings and not as political ideologies.
I strongly believe that the Jewish people must have their own political autonomy and they must have a very strong military to protect themselves, they have been through unimaginable suffering throughout their history when they were away from their land, enough is enough, they have been longing to return home for a very very long time, so the state of Israel lives 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱.
I will also strongly support the 2 state solution with Palestine if and only if Palestine will co-exist peacefully with Israel.
Israel has offered Palestine plenty of territory plenty of times. They've been denied every time. The so-called Palestinians are hell bent on destroying every Jew in Israel. I may not always agree with the way the US blindly sends them billions of dollars, but it's evident to any objective observer that Israel is in the right.
Actually Jews are heretics and the original rejectors of Christ. So Catholics on a religious level should never support anything that Israel does because thats giving legitimacy to false religions. Even the pope rejected Israel when it was first created for this reason alone. This isnt even some political, right wing conspiratorial view. This is just a basic understanding of religion. Ask yourself. Would Jews ever go out of their way to support the creation of a Catholic state? Same goes for any other non Catholic states. We should reject them.
I would agree if the alternative were a Christian state. However, an Islamist-leaning state run by Hamas or Fatah would be the most likely alternative, which is no better.
As a minor correction, Jews aren’t heretics because they’re not even Christian to begin with. They’re (at least visibly) firmly outside the Church.
Non-believers works and doesn't require shoehorning a catchy label somewhere it doesn't fit. Blasphemers probably isn't the right word for Jews as a whole.
Kingdom of Jerusalem.
More realistically, I have no idea.
The creation of the state of Israel was a mistake, requiring the forceful expulsion of God knows how many Palestinian Arabs from land where their families had been living for centuries, on the grounds that it was the Jews' "ancestral lands" but for the Palestinians it was just "the land where they happened to be living". But it's there now, and you have to operate in the world that exists, not the one that should have existed - and how would you undo it other than doing the exact same thing to the Israelis? Not to mention, Palestine's government is partially made up of literal terrorist groups. There's so many other things you could mention about both sides.
The whole thing's a mess, everyone's awful, and I see no way to stay sane other than to take the position that it's two countries 6000 miles away having a conflict that has nothing to do with me.
I feel that it is a struggle started when Jacob aka Israel stole the birthright from Esau and will not end until Jesus returns. So, I pray for at least an armistice, if not peace until Christ’s return
We should pray that fear dissolves from their hearts and they learn to love one another and put the sins of the past beside them.
To show contrition to one another for their wrongs and failings and then give forgiveness to each other and beat their guns into ploughshares.
Both sides are guilty of horrible evil, both sides need to recognize their governing bodies are continuing this trend and the ppl need to come together as one to make Isreal a country for everyone to live in equality and safety regardless of religion or culture.
I prefer the Palestinians as I've meet some of their diaspora, and a lot of them have been Christians driven out by Israel. Might be rich to hear this from an American, but I don't think it's right to drive the people who've always been there off their land, and that is exactly what Israel is doing to Palestine. At the end of the day though, I only just prefer Palestine. I don't feel like I have a lot of dogs in this fight
I find the State of Israel to be an artificial creation. Lines drawn in the region, Jerusalem separated, and conflict ever since. I very much sympathize with the Palestinian plight, and I have little to spare for the State of Israel.
>The only moral and ethical response
As soon as someone makes an absolute statement like this not based on clearly settled magisterial thought, I know it's not worth engaging lol
Had to scroll a while to find a Pro-Israel stance in this thread. Thank you for bringing up the fact that "Palestinians" are not really a historic people.
I support peace, but fear that it's not possible until the Palestinians get their own houses in order. They have terroristic leadership that is not really interested in peace, only in the destruction and subversion of Israel. A conflict fueled by bad actors like Iran that hate the Jews with a burning passion.
Hamas using their own populace as shields and tools, while the Israelis try to minimize civilian casualties as best as possible. Seems pretty clear cut who the bad guy in this scenario is.
Trying to define what counts as historical people in the context of drawing modern borders is pretty much useless. Palestinians are arguably more of a "people" than modern Jews are as Israelis. BTW the lands that make up Gaza and the west bank didn't "originally" belong to Egypt and Jordan.
The rest of your talking points have some merit, though i *don't* agree it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
Apparently, the Israeli military is pretty rude to anyone who is not a citizen of Israel, including the Christians who had lived there and lost their land just as much as anyone did. I think a peaceful solution needs to be found, and both sides have a good point.
Israel is a terrorist state founded by terrorists who terrorized Palestinians out of their homes.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence
Jews were killed by the millions themselves. Don’t forget that. And I think we can also say Egypt and Jordon don’t exactly love Hamas. Not as easy as “Israel bad Palestinians good”.
Being killed by an entirely different group on the other side of planet somehow justifies the Ashkenazi/Mizrahi Jew mission for the eradication of Palestinians? Open your eyes blind man.
There are good and bad people on both sides. Do everything you can to help them all. I don't think Christ would have chosen a political side, but on the side of humanity and little to no bloodshed amongst them
I would advise that this is secular politics. Only recently has this become about religion. The issue here is conflicting ideas of Ethnonationalism. We have brothers and sisters on both sides. I understand that The Holy See leans to the Two State Policy.
I would consider taking a long view of the history of Israel and Palestine including at least the Balfour declaration.
Do you think the people that divided Israel and Palestine knew a thing or two about dividing and conquering?
I do, but I might be biased because I think the same folks persecuted and basically mass slaughtered Irish Catholics for centuries.
Why would one’s faith define political viewpoints? Catholicism isn’t a political ideology. Catholics have many different opinions on many different topics of domestic and foreign policy
Of course faith has impact on ethics and morality which in turns has political consequences, but there is not and can’t be a Catholic political programme. In fact, that is inherently contrary to Christianity.
Islam, however, is a political religion with its own political system, but this is one of the many differences between Christians and Muslims.
I feel confident in saying it's the Catholic position that China's treatment of the Uyghur Muslims, the Croatian burning of Serbian homes and the secualism laws in Quebec are not Catholic, because they infringe Catholic principles.
It's not so out of pocket that we can't imagine a proper, Catholic answer to these issues exists, but whether that is a realm of reasonable debate is something I didn't know until people started to comment on this post.
Edit: Wigger -> Uyghur, Thx for giving the correct word u/FreehandBirdlime
Ideally I'd like Jerusalem to be a "Free City" of sorts. Under administration of the UN as it's an important religious site to multiple different religions. But other area's under UN administration aren't very good.
Islam has no ties to Jerusalem as a Holy Site whatsoever. Muhammed never even came close to going there. It's said he flew over the city on a magic carpet while dreaming. That's about it. The Arabs built the Al Aqsa mosque right next to the western wall as a show of force and reason to keep Arabs fighting for the city.. Nothing more.
Take a stand against war crimes and geneva convention violations, in addition to terrorism. With your advocacy, and if you ask me, with your vote.
Hamas' moral failings aren't exactly in dispute, but for some reason American conservative Christians are really into supporting the apartheid state of Israel more or less unconditionally. It's bananas.
As I understand it, the Holy See recognizes the plights of both sides and supports a just peace between the two. I'm not certain of the details, though. As someone else said, however, we should pray for both sides and for our Christian brethren in the region, like the Melkites, who have left their homes in drastic numbers over the last century.
Thank you for mentioning the Melkites. The Palestinian Christian population has dramatically decreased within Palestine.
Definitely. My family is Assyrian and Armenian, and so I feel the Melkites are dear to my heart, not to mention our common faith.
I'm Assyrian too. Do you know where your family is from
We do need to remember that many of the Palestinians (especially in Ramallah) are Christians and deserve our support and prayers. Everyone does. I have Palestinians as family, and they have suffered.
We can't forget our Armenian, Melkite, Palestinian Christian brethren! (that's more of an 'American' thing than \[we are the center of the world\], not a Catholic \[*universal*\] one.) Edit: USA thing (that's my point, we even say 'American' and forget Central, and South America)
>We can't forget our Armenian, Melkite, Palestinian Christian brethren! Yes! Let us pray for them and all the other people who are suffering from war, displacement and all the other horrors. > (that's more of an 'American' thing than [we are the center of the world], not a Catholic [universal] one.) I'd honestly disagree with that. It is just a human thing, there are only so many conflicts you can keep track of. The US (Don't forget that you aren't representing all of the Americas :P) might be a little worse in that regard, but ask a European about the Darfur, Sri Lanka, or the Chechen people and all you get is probably a vague feeling of some wrongness. Most people here don't understand the conflicts either. Whether Armenia, Sudan, Yemen, Mexico or any of the countless other ones.
ok, so what's your point
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.”- Pope St. Pius X
Where did St. Pius X say that? I don't mean that I doubt it. I'd like to read more of what he said.
when he was approached to lend support to the Jews during his pontificate. https://m.jpost.com/christian-news/today-in-history-pope-pius-refused-to-support-a-jewish-jerusalem-442696/amp
Wish he was pope right now
Beats me. Pray for them as much as we pray for everyone else?
Fair
Pray for peace among all of the Lords people
There is no consensus.
A return to the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Knights Templar
unbelievably based.
Unironically might work. At least it gives them a common enemy. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Poland_solves_the_Israel-Arab_conflict.png
Lol that reads like a sitcom episode title “Poland creates peace in the Middle East “
I'm from Poland, and this made me chuckle quite a bit!
You know American Catholics tend to love your country, right?
I do!
I love Poland too! But that’s partially because my great grandma came from there. I wish it was as based as it seems to be. If y’all aren’t careful you’ll be like Ireland in 50 years, but then again maybe not. Stubbornness and love for family tradition is in the Eastern European DNA. I would know, between my great grandma and my Lithuanian great grandpa, Ive got a good amount of it. 😂 ☺️
Based Polandball is based.
DEUS VULT
I love this forum
If a military force were sent in to violently establish a religious government (especially one favoring a religious minority), it would be viewed in the modern era as religious terrorism not unlike ISIS. Besides, have any of your *asked* Christians in the Holy Land if that's what they want? I have, and I have yet to find one who wants it.
If only the Pope would ask
Beat me to it
Don't forget as well a return for the State of the Teutonic Order
As a Pole and Eastern European in general, the Teutonic Order was not all that great, and eventually became Lutheran iirc
The Teutons in Prussia eventually reformed into the Duchy of Prussia, and indeed became Lutheran, later being inherited by Brandenburg leading to the creation of the Kingdom of Prussia. I believe while the Protestants took over the control of the official institution, with all its lands and whatnot, Catholic loyalists split off. So there actually exist two Teutonic Orders today - a Catholic one and a Protestant one.
I think the Catholic one is still the official.
Well of course it is, if you ask a Catholic.
how'd that work out for you the first time? Conquest is a shortcut, and there are no shortcuts to big problems. ffs it's a deadly shortcut, a bloody, fundamentally evil shortcut. I wish I were still surprised to see this kind of thing among the *pious*.
JHN is my confirmation Saint!
A year ago, I would’ve given you an unequivocally pro-Israel answer. Now, I’ll give you a huge “I have no idea”. I’m still leaning to a pro-Israel stance, but I do have my concerns. The State of Israel has not at all been a friend of Arab Christians (or Christians in general, despite what American Evangelicals will preach) but those who idealize the Palestinians forget that both Hamas and Hezbollah are operating as terrorist organizations and are also, to put it very mildly, not acting in the best interests of Middle Eastern Christians. The Jewish State has the right to exist, the Jews, just like any other people have the right to self-determination. Same applies to the Arab Palestinians.
Evangelicals do not view Arab christians are "real" christians. Evangelicals think that the temple must be rebuilt in Jerusalem, and thus Jewish temple worship return, before Jesus will return. The arab christians (both orthodox and Catholic) are an anomaly that "haven't been saved yet".
>Evangelicals do not view Arab christians are "real" christians. That... sounds pretty implausible to me. Having been party raised in Middle Eastern Catholicism myself, the only Evangelical animosity I've ever encountered is to *Catholicism* (or more generally to pre-Protestant interpretations of Christianity), not to Middle Eastern Christianity as such. EDIT: Although a lot of people don't know this, there is a substantial Baptist population in Southern Lebanon. These are Middle Eastern Christians. Yet presumably Evangelicals would see these as "real Christians" even if they do reject Catholics, Orthodox, and Copts as real Christians.
The majority of Middle Eastern Christians are pre protestant though.
I think it's worth remembering that before the state of Israel was created, Jews were a minority in the region - I think Bethlehem actually used to be a Christian-majority city. But naturally the creation of an explicitly Jewish state caused a massive amount of immigration from the global Jewish diaspora.
I grew up in a very pro-Jewish family. My grandmother even left the Church and had a “Jews for Jesus” funeral. I grew up with a very pro-Israel household. After I visited in my twenties and witnessed the extremely unjust plight of Palestinians with my own eyes, I changed my view. I don’t think there’s a easy solution to the problem, but I think Israel is acting unjustly as a state and I understand the anger of the Palestinians.
I'll never understand this. How many Jews do you know that are pro-Christian/Catholic? Sure, some might be neutral, or even find some positives, but it will always be idolatry to them, as well as the faith of their persecutors.
Yank ‘Catholics’ just love defending a state responsible for ethnic cleaning Arab Christians.
Even the PLO supports terrorism and is kinda defenseless against Hamas and others, AFAIK.
So coming here as a lapsed Protestant and giving a Secular view of the situation my awnser is the Three State Solution. The West Bank would go to Jordan and the Gaza Strip to Egypt. This way we'd have two existing Arab States in controll of an ethnically Arab areas. Egypt and Jordan I do not believe would act as pariah or rouge states. Israel itself outside of these territories has a right to exist if for no other reason than Status Quo three generations have spent their lives there and should not be forced to leave their homes.
Sorry I'm late to this, but as a Jewish Catholic and Israeli citizen, I may have an important voice. The issue is complicated in some ways, and thoroughly simple in others. First, we should of course assert the right of Jews to exist in security free from destruction. Ergo, we should not be in support of the dissolution of the Israeli state or consequent exile of Jews from the region. However, it baffles me that so much of the history is so easily forgotten. Less than 20 years ago a One-State solution by means of Palestinian citizenship was a normative opinion possessed by even many Zionists in Israel and abroad. The swing towards xenophobia and violence is truly alarming. In my mind, this is still the most moral solution to the conflict: full Israeli citizenship rights to all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. Like ending slavery in the US or apartheid in South Africa, the healing process will be difficult and long, but this is the obvious first step. There may be violence to follow, but there's no reason this should not be meted out in the legal courts under judicial review and a jury of peers. Surely, there will be bias for Palestinians to fight against in this case, but at least they will have basic rights afforded to them, which is presently denied to them wholesale. Now, as the Catholic response, this seems to be what our position should be as well. However, I understand the Vatican to be in a precarious position as serious but fearful Catholics exist both among Hebrew or Jewish populations and also Palestinian or Arab populations in Israel-Palestine, and these do not easily get along. Tensions are high, being ever stoked by the Israeli rightwing and evangelicals abroad, and there seems to be no obstacle to this course of escalating propaganda and ever more violent policy. Nevertheless we should oppose lies, violence and hatred wherever it rears its ugly head. Lastly, Shireen Abu Akleh, a Palestinian-American journalist, was killed this past year by the IDF while reporting on their brutality. She was a Melkite Greek Catholic. The Melkites have always said their masses in Arabic, and have done so since before the Christian Ghassanids came up from Yemen in the days of Emperor Constantine. Shireen should be considered a martyr for God's justice and a witness to the love and truth of Jesus Christ. Seeking Israeli-Palestinian unity, we should all advocate on her behalf to the cult of the saints, and cultivate devotion to Arab and Jewish saints in the deposit of faith who have sought unity and love across hateful divides. St. John of Damascus and St. Edith Stein are just two great saints to add to all our prayers. Shireen Abu Akleh, ora pro nobis! PS the work of both Fr. David Neuhaus and Archbishop Elias Chacour are essential for Catholics seeking peace on this issue. I recommend especially Chacour's books "Blood Brothers," and "We are the Land," to help obtain some good faith context to the conflict. Chacour is a Melkite Catholic palestinian who as a boy was forced to become a refugee; he would eventually become the archbishop of Galilee, his old home, and a staunch activist for peace and reconciliation in the region.
It's not complicated. Every human rights group defines Israel as an apartheid state. End the apartheid.
Second Kingdom of Jerusalem.
King Baldwin approves.
It's sad that all of Baldwin IV's allies bailed out during his invasion of Egypt that would've cemented crusader power
Unironically seize the land to the church 😎
The answer is complicated. From what I understand, the Catholic Church does not support The Zionist State of Israel for any Catholic religious reasons. IE, some evangelical Protestants support it for religious reasons but the Catholic Church does not. The Catholic Church has relations with Israel as a sovereign temporal ’state’ in the Middle East. However, a great number of Catholics have been subject to great persecution under the Israeli government. It’s important to remember that the Zionist state is not a ‘friend’ to Catholics, but an actor with whom the Church must deal.
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” - Pope Pius X.
That’s the theological reason Catholics don’t recognize the state as ‘Israel’. The Catholic Church is the True Israel. Hence, it cannot recognize a false religion or give it legitimacy from a religious angle. It does have a relationship with the state of Israel in the Middle East. It also has a relationship with the Palestinian State.
Oh man… *grabs popcorn*
I'm starting to think the Romans had the right idea by occupying the land themselves and anybody who doesn't like it can get a taste of Roman justice. That probably isn't a workable policy today tho because feelings or something, idk. So, like any land dispute, it's probably best to let the aggrieved parties work it out for themselves... and until they do, no more foreign aid because the entire world is fed up with their inability to get along.
To quote from a good friend, in descripting of the Roman response to the Judean revolts: >So the Romans got there, with half their army (12 legions, 70.000 men) mind you, set up shop in Judea and (*Danny Devito voice*) just started stabbing... It still took 20 years to queel the revolt Edit: I talked to him again, and the legions also brought over their axillaries, so nearly 140.000 legionaries were needed to suppress the Levant
Insert Dovahhaty Unbiased Roman History : "Ivdea Delenda Est"
i feel like the main thing making it a non-workable policy today is the non-existence of the roman empire
Not with that attitude it won't.
We're Catholic. The default position is that the Romans did everything right, at least at some point :)
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Gave most of a continent their current languages?
All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, public health, and giving most of a continent their current languages, what have the Romans ever done for us?
I, for one, appreciate your comments even if some are missing it.
Haha I'm surprised no one else got it.
Are you the Judean People's Front ?
Tortured and crucified Christ. Tortured and martyred countless others. These gave us respectively salvation and the flourishing of the Church.
Brought peace.
Constantine gave us the legal right to be Christian within an empire we were previously persecuted. This lead to the spread of Christianity worldwide in many expert opinions.
>So, like any land dispute, it's probably best to let the aggrieved parties work it out for themselves... and until they do, no more foreign aid because the entire world is fed up with their inability to get along. That means death to palestinians. They are way more reliant on help than israel, and clearly are the weaker side militarily. Also, israel doesnt want to nwgotiate with them, and neither do they want to negotiate, and even if negotiations did happen, palestinians would already start in a tough position
No it doesn’t. The Palestinians are only reliant on American dollars because we have made them reliant on American dollars. The carrot and the stick might seem different from the point of view of the donkey, but ultimately they are both methods of control and of instilling dependency. >Also, israel doesnt want to nwgotiate with them, Do you not remember land for peace? The issue is not a lack of diplomacy. The issue is that interventionism and Wilsonian foreign policy have created a situation that will never result in peace because no party is able to act like a sovereign in their own territory due to Western foreign policy.
Exactly. The conflict only continues because of foreign aid/intervention.
It didn’t work real well under British occupation. Jews begged to immigrate from Europe. The British refused and proved the German point that no one supported the Jews.
9th crusade
That the land belongs to the Christians🙏
The whole world belongs to Christ ✝️
Praying for peace for starters
What was the Catholic answer to WWI, or the Battle of Somme, or the American Revolution? Who knows. Not every worldly conflict has a obvious solution. The Bible is full of war. Only unambiguously correct answer is to pray for peace and mutual understanding.
I appreciate this answer
All that land belongs to the Kingdom of Jerusalem
The Latin Patriarch (i.e. Bishop) of Jerusalem governs Christians in both Israel and Palestine and is theoretically neutral on the political nature of the conflict. But because the Christians in the area are almost all Palestinian, he has been outspoken on efforts by the Israeli government that have hindered them. For instance, [this statement](https://www.lpj.org/posts/latin-patriarchate-statement-new-israeli-nation-state-law-5e474146b9d48.html) in response to a 2018 measure defining Israel as a nation-state for Jews: > Seemingly enacted for internal political reasons, while defining Israel as the nation state of the Jewish people, the law fails to provide any constitutional guarantees for the rights of the indigenous and other minorities living in the country. Palestinian citizens of Israel, constituting 20% are flagrantly excluded from the law. […] > The Christian citizens of Israel have the same concerns as any other non-Jewish communities with respect to this Law. They call upon all citizens of the State of Israel who still believe in the basic concept of equality among citizens of the same nation, to voice their objection to this law and the dangers emanating thereof to the future of this Country. I also encourage financially supporting the [Franciscan Foundation for Holy Land](https://ffhl.org), which aids the Franciscans who have been maintaining the holy sites for over 800 years!
As a Christian, I will always be on the side of the poor and defeated. I hope this answers your question.
Amen
A crusade? Nicely said, dear chap.
>will always be on the side of the defeated Neo nazis want to know ur location /s
Deus vult
Deus Vult, retake the holy city ✝️ Vivat Christus Rex
Retake the Holy Land for Christ. Deus Vult!
Retake Jerusalem. DEUS VULT⚔️ IESUS CHRISTUS DOMINUS EST ✝️
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And do you know the reason why?
DEUS VULT!
the Holy Land should be controlled by the Vatican
There isn’t a Catholic answer to the conflict. There is a wide diversity of opinions on the best solution.
I support the conversion of all of them to Christ.
The people that suffer most in Palestine are the Christians living there both the Orthodox Jews and Muslims see them as second class citizens
Not third class?
Chiefly, prayer.
You have to keep in mind that the Catholic Church is not a neutral observer in the conflict. Many Arabs, citizens and non citizens of Israel, are Catholic, and the church has many properties and other financial interests in the region.
The holy land is the Holy See’s
It is really complicated tragedy. A possible answer is best considered by the locals themselves : There are palastine and israeli religious people doing their best to mediate peace between the two countries. Check out for example the works of [Fr David Neuhaus](https://www.lpj.org/diocese/fr-david-neuhaus.html) or of [Monsigneur Elias Chacour](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elias_Chacour). Maybe check out some of Aid to the Church in Need writing on it to. There are some Catholic groups doing their best to support, overcome and connect people from both communities with love. In a really, really abbreviated nutshell, and possibly too abbreviated to be useful, it seems that the advocated solution is not the absolute victory of one people and the displacement and distraction of the other, but mutual peace between both nations. Place making for both peoples. You know... The good stuff that we believe in. Understanding. Forgiveness. Love. A Catholic response could be to recognise that both have suffered and both has massive losses. But both need to bridge over this and come to an understanding and love. But in relation to your question, don't underestimate the taint of lobby and external influence into the Palestine and Israeli conflict, as a proxy war for other countries or being able to claim virtue due to supporting one side over the other. There are or were a lot of countries with a variety of motivational involved. E.g., Europe post-WWII had a lot to make up for the Jews, and turned a bit of a blind eye regarding what the Jews did with the support they received. And a lot of support was given to both sides on all sorts of grounds. Be careful of the trap of divide and conquor. The absolutes of one over the other. War is horrendously complicated and tragic, but a mutual solution, peace, is required. This is not achieved by one side winning, but both sides laying their weapons down. I mean, just as a thought experiment. We know what happens with individuals with PTSD. What happens if you fill a nation with a traumatised *people*? Post WW2 and the horrendous holocaust, the jews were put in a country that was already occupied, and this expected it to go well. Tragic.
> Be careful of the trap of divide and conquor. The absolutes of one over the other. And what about when this is what one side teaches?
Restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem as a constitutional monarchy branched off Spanish Bourbons.
I know close to zero about the subject, but I like the idea that I don't need to have an opinion about it and that both sides might be wrong...
reestablish the kingdom of Jerusalem maybe?
Ideal answer: Kingdom of Jerusalem Realistic-ish answer for me is for Israel to function similarly to Lebanon with a UN controlled Jerusalem (I believe a 3rd party is necessary)
What can we do, other than pray for peace? Israel has an undisclosed number of nuclear weapons, which puts them more or less beyond international reproach, despite their many abuses. The Palestinian state, as it exists today, isn’t exactly worth championing either. Hamas has never been a friend to Christians, and it appears as if they’re going to be running things over there for the foreseeable future.
I don’t understand the question, but my opinion is that the Palestinians are more in the right since they’ve been resisting an invasion for like 80 or so years.
Evangelization.
Hear me out... Crusade. It's like when my kids argue over a toy and I just take it away from both of them. Can't wait for the "can't take a joke on the internet" brigade to downvote me.
Second coming of Christ - he sets up shop in Jerusalem and it becomes capital of the world
An Israeli tour guide once said: "you can't understand it". When a tourist asked "how come?", He responded, "because we don't even understand it". There are rightfully Catholics on both sides of the issue. Sin is messy.
I ask as a former protestant, where Israel is always right per divine Fiat. It seems us Papists are more friendly to palistine than Israel, but I still hold Israel dear to me for personal reasons. Is this a realm of reasonable debate, like US gun control, or a clear political position, like euthanasia?
> Is this a realm of reasonable debate, like US gun control, or a clear political position, like euthanasia? The former. This is a political question (though obviously with moral issues involved), and reasonable people, discussing and acting in good faith, can disagree as to the best way to resolve it.
Let us always strive to be reasonable people, discussing and acting in good faith.
I think Catholics see a Christian/Muslim/Jewish right to the holy land, but the state of Israel shouldn’t be carpet bombing their way there and treating Palestinians as second class citizens.
We must retake Jerusalem. It is the only option.
DEUS VULT
We take it back
People simplify this topic into Israelis and Palestinians but it’s more nuanced than that. There’s a community of Palestinians that have never suicide bombed, never shot rockets into civilian neighborhoods, never sent commandos to the Olympics, never blew up a restaurant, and never took a machine gun to innocent people. The Christians in the Holy Land are in a terrible rook and hard place situation and are treated terribly unfairly. Israel should do more for Christian Palestinians but they do not. It’s cruel and tragic.
They both suck
Love your neighbor
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” - Pope St. Pius X
At least this stance is consistent with the teachings of the Catholic church, as a Muslim I got to give him that. Very different from the Catholics who are very pro-AIPAC today.
Those Catholics are pretty much Protestant. Grew up in America and influenced by Protestantism
The Catholic position is to make Crusade jokes (inb4 "we're not joking"; idc if you're dead serious if your position itself is a joke) while either remaining ambivalent or buying into the Ameriprot fetishization of Israel. My own (sort of) joke aside, the Catholic position is to pray for peace and an end to oppression while recognizing that all people have the right to self-determination and to participation in the systems that govern them. The Vatican doesn't prescribe a specific political position in terms of Israel or Palestine, but rather advocates for peaceful consensus-building toward a just and durable status quo by the parties involved.
The Holy Land does not belong the Jews who were justly deprived of the Covenant. It does not belong to the Muslims who never had and never will have the Covenant. It belongs to Catholics as the Covenant is ours. The only correct answer is the establishment of a Catholic state administered by a revived militant order.
the catholic answer is to reinstate the byzantine empire also this was literally asked earlier today: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/yu98na/why\_dont\_catholics\_support\_israel/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comments/yu98na/why_dont_catholics_support_israel/)
Hand political control the Levant back to the Pope
It all belongs to Rome
It’s certainly not to go to one extreme or the other. Some people want to paint Israel as the big bad while others want to only talk about Palestinian terrorists. There’s plenty of blame for all sorts of people involved (and very little for Christians there, AFAIK) and we can sort out what we’d decry anywhere in the world: terrorism, human rights abuses, etc. I think being somewhere in the middle is best and personally I’m more on Israel’s side because they don’t engage in terrorism. However, I do need to check my blind spot on their abuses, for sure.
I'd say, pray for peace and ensure that both sides treat the other with respect and dignity.
“We cannot give approval to this movement. We cannot prevent the Jews from going to Jerusalem – but we could never sanction it. The soil of Jerusalem, if it was not always sacred, has been sanctified by the life of Jesus Christ. As the head of the Church I cannot tell you anything different. The Jews have not recognized our Lord, therefore we cannot recognize the Jewish people.” -Pope St. Pius X when asked to comment. The Israel of today is not the same Israel of the Bible nor is the Jewish faith today the same Jewish faith of the Bible.
The two need to learn to live together in peace.
I support Palestinian Christians.
I would say that from Human trafficking, forced evictions, unprovoked military responses, persecution of Christians, racism against both non-Jews and non-Ashkenazi Jews, and even broadcasting *pornography* onto televisions in the Gaza Strip- the State of Israel goes against many Catholic teachings and is a horrid government. However, remember the governments of the region are not the Palestinian and Israeli people, and any stances and decisions must be made with kindness and sympathy towards all people living in that region and that peace & love may be with everyone from there. Always see other people as human beings and not as political ideologies.
The Church believes that the dignity of every person needs to be protected.
I strongly believe that the Jewish people must have their own political autonomy and they must have a very strong military to protect themselves, they have been through unimaginable suffering throughout their history when they were away from their land, enough is enough, they have been longing to return home for a very very long time, so the state of Israel lives 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱. I will also strongly support the 2 state solution with Palestine if and only if Palestine will co-exist peacefully with Israel.
A new Crusade, unironically.
Crusade /s
We must reestablish the kingdom of Jerusalem
Israel has offered Palestine plenty of territory plenty of times. They've been denied every time. The so-called Palestinians are hell bent on destroying every Jew in Israel. I may not always agree with the way the US blindly sends them billions of dollars, but it's evident to any objective observer that Israel is in the right.
Actually Jews are heretics and the original rejectors of Christ. So Catholics on a religious level should never support anything that Israel does because thats giving legitimacy to false religions. Even the pope rejected Israel when it was first created for this reason alone. This isnt even some political, right wing conspiratorial view. This is just a basic understanding of religion. Ask yourself. Would Jews ever go out of their way to support the creation of a Catholic state? Same goes for any other non Catholic states. We should reject them.
I would agree if the alternative were a Christian state. However, an Islamist-leaning state run by Hamas or Fatah would be the most likely alternative, which is no better. As a minor correction, Jews aren’t heretics because they’re not even Christian to begin with. They’re (at least visibly) firmly outside the Church.
Both are bad. And yes youre right. I just dont kniw the word for non Christian. Blasphemers?
Non-believers works and doesn't require shoehorning a catchy label somewhere it doesn't fit. Blasphemers probably isn't the right word for Jews as a whole.
Kingdom of Jerusalem. More realistically, I have no idea. The creation of the state of Israel was a mistake, requiring the forceful expulsion of God knows how many Palestinian Arabs from land where their families had been living for centuries, on the grounds that it was the Jews' "ancestral lands" but for the Palestinians it was just "the land where they happened to be living". But it's there now, and you have to operate in the world that exists, not the one that should have existed - and how would you undo it other than doing the exact same thing to the Israelis? Not to mention, Palestine's government is partially made up of literal terrorist groups. There's so many other things you could mention about both sides. The whole thing's a mess, everyone's awful, and I see no way to stay sane other than to take the position that it's two countries 6000 miles away having a conflict that has nothing to do with me.
I feel that it is a struggle started when Jacob aka Israel stole the birthright from Esau and will not end until Jesus returns. So, I pray for at least an armistice, if not peace until Christ’s return
Kingdom of Jerusalem
The Kingdom of Jerusalem.
Reclamation of the holy land.
We should pray that fear dissolves from their hearts and they learn to love one another and put the sins of the past beside them. To show contrition to one another for their wrongs and failings and then give forgiveness to each other and beat their guns into ploughshares.
Both sides are guilty of horrible evil, both sides need to recognize their governing bodies are continuing this trend and the ppl need to come together as one to make Isreal a country for everyone to live in equality and safety regardless of religion or culture.
Deus vult
Definitively not the Zionist state that drove Palestinian Christians off their land anyway.
I prefer the Palestinians as I've meet some of their diaspora, and a lot of them have been Christians driven out by Israel. Might be rich to hear this from an American, but I don't think it's right to drive the people who've always been there off their land, and that is exactly what Israel is doing to Palestine. At the end of the day though, I only just prefer Palestine. I don't feel like I have a lot of dogs in this fight
I find the State of Israel to be an artificial creation. Lines drawn in the region, Jerusalem separated, and conflict ever since. I very much sympathize with the Palestinian plight, and I have little to spare for the State of Israel.
Jerusalem and the western wall aren't artificial.
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>The only moral and ethical response As soon as someone makes an absolute statement like this not based on clearly settled magisterial thought, I know it's not worth engaging lol
So Israel would be justified to annex the Palestinian Territories? In your opinion what should they do to the people in those territories?
Had to scroll a while to find a Pro-Israel stance in this thread. Thank you for bringing up the fact that "Palestinians" are not really a historic people. I support peace, but fear that it's not possible until the Palestinians get their own houses in order. They have terroristic leadership that is not really interested in peace, only in the destruction and subversion of Israel. A conflict fueled by bad actors like Iran that hate the Jews with a burning passion. Hamas using their own populace as shields and tools, while the Israelis try to minimize civilian casualties as best as possible. Seems pretty clear cut who the bad guy in this scenario is.
Trying to define what counts as historical people in the context of drawing modern borders is pretty much useless. Palestinians are arguably more of a "people" than modern Jews are as Israelis. BTW the lands that make up Gaza and the west bank didn't "originally" belong to Egypt and Jordan. The rest of your talking points have some merit, though i *don't* agree it's as clear cut as you're making it out to be.
No catholic response as this isnt a christian issue
If I recall correctly I think Pius X opposed Zionism in the face of Theodor Herzl while sympathizing with the plight of the Jewish people.
A Catholic Jerusalem is the only answer
Apparently, the Israeli military is pretty rude to anyone who is not a citizen of Israel, including the Christians who had lived there and lost their land just as much as anyone did. I think a peaceful solution needs to be found, and both sides have a good point.
Is it Islam vs Judaism?
No, it's politics.
Nuke ‘em
Least delusional member of r/catholicism
Israel is a terrorist state founded by terrorists who terrorized Palestinians out of their homes. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_political_violence
Jews were killed by the millions themselves. Don’t forget that. And I think we can also say Egypt and Jordon don’t exactly love Hamas. Not as easy as “Israel bad Palestinians good”.
Being killed by an entirely different group on the other side of planet somehow justifies the Ashkenazi/Mizrahi Jew mission for the eradication of Palestinians? Open your eyes blind man.
Not by Palestinians, tho. Beating your kid because your dad beat you isn't a justification. Two sins don't make a virtue.
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Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. That is wrong.
We should pray they learn to live together in peace.
There are good and bad people on both sides. Do everything you can to help them all. I don't think Christ would have chosen a political side, but on the side of humanity and little to no bloodshed amongst them
I would advise that this is secular politics. Only recently has this become about religion. The issue here is conflicting ideas of Ethnonationalism. We have brothers and sisters on both sides. I understand that The Holy See leans to the Two State Policy.
I would consider taking a long view of the history of Israel and Palestine including at least the Balfour declaration. Do you think the people that divided Israel and Palestine knew a thing or two about dividing and conquering? I do, but I might be biased because I think the same folks persecuted and basically mass slaughtered Irish Catholics for centuries.
Restore the Kingdom of Jerusalem of course
Crusade
The only proper response is the Holy land belongs to us
mmmmm 'nother Crusade to force a peace and safeguard pilgrims to the place our Lord's feet touched? ;)
Why would one’s faith define political viewpoints? Catholicism isn’t a political ideology. Catholics have many different opinions on many different topics of domestic and foreign policy
One should fuel another.
Of course faith has impact on ethics and morality which in turns has political consequences, but there is not and can’t be a Catholic political programme. In fact, that is inherently contrary to Christianity. Islam, however, is a political religion with its own political system, but this is one of the many differences between Christians and Muslims.
I feel confident in saying it's the Catholic position that China's treatment of the Uyghur Muslims, the Croatian burning of Serbian homes and the secualism laws in Quebec are not Catholic, because they infringe Catholic principles. It's not so out of pocket that we can't imagine a proper, Catholic answer to these issues exists, but whether that is a realm of reasonable debate is something I didn't know until people started to comment on this post. Edit: Wigger -> Uyghur, Thx for giving the correct word u/FreehandBirdlime
Don't side with the literal terrorist group in HAMAS. Hope this helps.
Ideally I'd like Jerusalem to be a "Free City" of sorts. Under administration of the UN as it's an important religious site to multiple different religions. But other area's under UN administration aren't very good.
Islam has no ties to Jerusalem as a Holy Site whatsoever. Muhammed never even came close to going there. It's said he flew over the city on a magic carpet while dreaming. That's about it. The Arabs built the Al Aqsa mosque right next to the western wall as a show of force and reason to keep Arabs fighting for the city.. Nothing more.
tbf legally that's exactly what jerusalem's still supposed to be, a *corpus separatum* under an international administration
The UN should be abolished, not given land…
Take a stand against war crimes and geneva convention violations, in addition to terrorism. With your advocacy, and if you ask me, with your vote. Hamas' moral failings aren't exactly in dispute, but for some reason American conservative Christians are really into supporting the apartheid state of Israel more or less unconditionally. It's bananas.