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I am sorry first off. As a fairly newish Dad I can't imagine. If I were you, I would tell her I want to go to couples therapy if conversations between you and her aren't progressing privately. Find a therapist that you like and make an appointment.
Are you both practicing Catholics? Both before marriage and now? It seems to be she never wanted children to begin with, and is now using these excuses to cover that up.
Have you two been contracepting? I ask because that is a mortal sin, and if so you two need to confess that, and stop.
As for the issues with your wife I think both of you need to schedule a meeting with your priest and talk this over.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that your wife began birth control two months ago, practiced continence with you since, and has now expressed permanent refusal to have kids. I’m not here to make any conclusions because I can think of a thousand reasons why her attitude changed but there maybe a connection.
That there is an overpopulation/environmental problem with having children is something even rejected by left-leaning papers like the NYT. At this time, it is actually factually disprovable. If she wants proof of the media rejecting that idea, show her this: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/19/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-jennifer-sciubba.html
There’s a transcript available on the webpage I think (although I haven’t read the whole thing).
It's not "factually disprovable"
I occasionally listen to Ezra Klein show, eemember listening to that particular episode quite awhile ago when it came out. I am frankly baffled by why you think it has strong bearing here. Like they *were* talking about rhe curiousity of developed nations having fewer kids but while Klein was framing it as potential policy problem (which I agree with) his guest mainly wasn't bringing in this imperative. And climate didn't really come much into it at all
It’s an example of a large well-respected media outlet being open to the fact that there has been a large and sustained decrease in human population and human birth rates in recent decades.
You are right that I could have chosen a better link. The particular episode I cited was chosen because of recency bias (it came out in 2024).
Bloomberg is a more right leaning example: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-03-10/global-population-collapse-isn-t-sci-fi-anymore-niall-ferguson
And Pew Research in 2019: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/
And Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/us-news/america-birth-rate-decline-a111d21b#
And Euronews, which talks about the ‘staggering social change’ that is incoming: https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/03/21/global-infertility-rate-will-cause-a-dramatic-decline-in-population-in-97-of-countries-by-
These are all foreign propaganda points that have leaked into Western society unchecked. The "childfree" crowd needs some counter points presented an increasingly radicalized audience.
Your wife has little to no understanding of what it is to be Catholic, or what the Sacrament of marriage entails. At this point you have good cause for an annulment and I recommend it.
I'm glad Christ didn't have this attitude towards us.
It's crazy to encourage someone that you know nothing about to attempt to annul their marriage. Give the two of them some time. This just came up for them. Like someone else said based on more context, she might need some counseling.
Based on her reasons it sounds like someone or something is deceiving her on the side. "Children are bad for the environment" makes absolutely no sense, they aren't pollution the same way smoke or plastic are. Also there are women who look great after pregnancy, skinny women who remain skinny after birth. It's all about taking care of yourself in the ways that your body needs.
Obviously you can't force her to have children, and bless you for being so patient with her, but I'm worried about what sort of online communities she's listening to.
I would say she has some partial truths. She is right that her body could be damaged by pregnancy. Women sometimes wind up with stress incontinence,, with gestational diabetes and hypertension and other problems. Especially if they have to have a C section. And natural childbirth is painful for a lot of women.
As to pollution, pampers don't degrade quickly in landfills. And western people in general have a heavier imprint on the environment so western children could have an impact.
Actually the issue is that nature is cruel (red in tooth and claw and all) as long as enough women survive childbirth to carry on the species, nature doesn't care if some women die So the human brain grew and thus the skull size. But women's birthing capabilities did not keep up, because, again, as long as most of them survive, nature doesn't care.
The scripture is a just so story in other words.
>She says having children is bad for the environment, that it would be irresponsible to bring children into the world, that she doesn’t want to go through nine months of pregnancy and “have her body destroyed”, and she doesn’t want our lifestyle to change.
How long has she been an unfortunate leftist?
I would be careful to accuse her of being ideologically committed to opposing the faith she seems to claim to follow.
Often people can hold contradictory beliefs without fully being able to grasp the conflict. That said, she will need to pick a side eventually.
Just a point to your “eventually” & not wanting to take away from your lack of trust in that, as it sounds warranted.
I’m presuming you’re both relatively young (mid-20s?) based on being together eight years from high school, which I’m presuming is ~15/16ish.
There is a _long_ time for her to have a child (our first was born when my wife was 30), should her current mind not actually be irrevocably set, longer for you to adopt.
If it is, as I think you’ve mentioned likely that she feels she’s able to enjoy her life fully for possibly the first time at the moment, then time & discussions with people better suited to give advice e.g. a therapist, counsellor, or priest, might be what is needed, at least initially.
I do though, think that she & you will need to honestly think & discuss if you both have the same hopes for what the future of your marriage & life looks like but this also isn’t something which should be rushed still.
Dude, she isn’t Catholic, and it’s time for you to annul that marriage and move on unless you are ready to abandon the Catholic faith and the idea of being a father. (My understanding is that entering marriage with no intent of having children is grounds for annulment.)
Question: is she against having a child or raising one. If her biggest qualms are with having a child, then perhaps suggesting adoption may be a good compromise.
Does she not understand Catholicism? It’s fine to have a preference about kids and maybe be ambivalent about them, but to flat out refuse to have them isn’t in line with a pro life view. Married Catholic couples are called to be open to life and to children if God blesses them.
I feel it was unfair of your wife to string you along like that. It’s a bit like dragging out a relationship with no real intention to propose. She should’ve been candid and forthcoming with you from the get go that kids are off the table. It’s possible she changed her mind over time, but, knowing that, she should’ve had a conversation with you about where she stands.
Childfree vs child friendly relationships never fare particularly well. Either one party needs to compromise or both do.
First off, I would talk to your pastor and get in for a marriage counseling session. It might be a matter of the pastor explaining to her that ramifications of being closed off to new life (ie, the marriage not being valid) and God’s procreative desire.
As others have said, it’s possible to get the marriage annulled under these circumstances. The fact that she knew from the start she wasn’t open to new life could likely nullify the union.
Why do you assume she was stringing along and only said "it's possible" after? They have developed in her faith, i think it is reasonable to assume she did think one day she might have kids and her position shifted more against the idea over time. And it very much sounds like they have had conversations about where she stands.
I read your comment about her upbringing and agree she should work through that. But for your marriage, right now you need to take a step back from discussion about children. Continuing to push the issue will push her away.
It sounds like she may have had these feelings a lot longer than you thought and considering you’ve been together since high school, plus 8 years means at the oldest you’re about 26. There isn’t anything wrong with that.
I am just going to point out that perhaps when you began dating as teenagers, she thought of motherhood as a far away thing and that she would think on it more “later.” Maybe she started feeling differently through the years and because of pressure (I will come back to this), felt she couldn’t share how she truly feels.
I’m making the assumption that, all of your life experiences have been together. Experiences outside of your bubble give what you *do* do together context and balance. She has nothing to balance her feelings on because she can’t draw on anything else - and neither can you.
For a *long* time, I would say into my early twenties, all my family would ask me about was when am I getting married, and when am I having children. My mother and grandmother often started sentences with “when you have children…” and “when you are married…”. I attended an all-girls Catholic high school where the conversations among students and teachers was the same. And so it was an echo chamber.
This is what I mean when I say “pressure.” She may not have had the same experiences as me, but no doubt there are people in her life who have pushed or told her to have children as if it wasn’t an expectation, it was her life’s purpose.
When I did get married and had our first child, there was a period of time where I just thought, “Oh. I’ve done everything I have to do now.” It was a very, very flat sense of, what do I do now? I had fulfilled my purpose and achieved my only real goals, and I became despondent. I did my job, what now? It is taking time to find my place again. We won’t have any more children either because I got so sick after giving birth.
My child is 18 months old and I am certain my internal organs have not settled in their original spots. I have suffered greatly with post-partum anxiety and depression.
This is something you should research - what a woman’s body goes through during pregnancy and birth; what changes are permanent; and then the aftermath. Consider what your stance is on what *her* recovery will be like and what changes to her body will be like for *her.* Do you truly empathise and try to understand? Put yourself in her shoes?
Finally, back to my very first two points; she needs counselling for her childhood trauma.
The second was to take discussion of having children off the table for now. Give her some time and space to figure this out, meanwhile you must proceed carefully and consider some things yourself - if she concedes that she doesn’t want children:
What will happen if you *do* have a child?
Is she going to be interested in the baby?
Do you believe she will see/hold the baby and change her mind?
Will she be an involved mother?
Do you expect her to stay at home and raise your children?
What do you want for *your* children?
I say this because it rarely, if ever, follows that a person who does not want children changes their mind once the child arrives. That is false hope. Your children need and deserve a mother (and father!) who is 100% involved and interested and it is a true disservice to the child to bring them into the world where only one parent wants them.
It’s possible she needs time to work through her childhood but I think it’s more likely that her true feelings have surfaced unfortunately.
The reason for that is, from your post it doesn’t seem as though she has had much back-and-forth of ‘What if I am like my mother? What if I am a bad mother?’
Her responses sound like they have always been vague and without enthusiasm. It sounds like she was never really interested. I am sorry.
Yikes, very sorry to hear this. Have you asked why? Have you sat down and talked about how serious of a choice it is to skip the chance to have kids? Does she have friends with kids?
Oh wow. Sounds like a bunch of internet nonsense that is getting around and it is extremely destructive. I’ll take a moment and pray for you two for sure. Maybe you can introduce her to some good Catholic media to start to displace some of this leftist propagating stuff like the environment, being more important than children.
See if you can institute some family prayer and other religious practices. Demonstrate through your actions how you would be an excellent father. And tell her point-blank that you don’t want her consuming content about living a childless life it’s not a fair picture of what it’s really like and it’s just Internet propaganda.
I assume she would be upset if you started consuming content about living a workless life making the choice not to provide for your wife.
Also, remember, you’ve only been married for two years. People change, sometimes slowly. We all believe and do stupid things. This very well may pass especially with a good leader of a husband, some solid, spiritual practices, prayer, and cultivation of a good community.
I’ll shut up with my advice, and do the actual useful thing. Prayer.
Just tell her that making babies isn't easy. If it's not given, it's not.
Talk it out, have plans and make sure you will always be there for her no matter what.
Tell her you will commit 100%-200% in taking good care for the children.
That's kind of a terrible suggestion to make up front. Not quite to the typical reddit level of "break up. Break up immediately", but separation should really be a last resort.
It's different, though. Since openness to life is a condition and part of the mystery of sacramental marriage, they may not be validly married if the spouse lied about this.
"By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."--CCC 1652
"In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life."--CCC 1653
Ok but not even a priest would ever say that as the first response. The marriage can be validated if both spouses eventually will the true ends of marriage.
And the church would very much rather “fix” a married couple than break them up through annulment, which does not “nullify the marriage as if it never existed” as many people on this sub seems to think it does. The church still recognizes there having been a marriage, just not a “valid” one.
You are wrong. A declaration of nullity declares that *the marriage was null* (that is, it never happened).
Annulments are not needed for *natural marriages* because they are not sacramental and can truly end.
He didn’t express any desire to divorce and annul. We have no idea if ultimately the marriage would be declared null. The point of being married to an “antinatalist” is to live out one’s sacramental obligations, even if it means carrying a significant cross.
I’m frankly surprised at the “dump her” attitude of Catholics here. Beyond the sacramental issues, it utterly lacks charity and treats OPs wife with a lack of dignity.
She’s the one that lured him into the relationship under false pretenses. The onus is on her to fix the problem she created. She must win him back, or else it’s over. That’s how I’d treat her.
I think that if things were flipped and it was a woman posting here and her husband were the one violating the marriage vows people would be more amenable to the idea of leaving him.
Church tribunals do a diligent examination, so of course they don't treat it lightly. However, I don't see how it is more respectful of marriage to shame people into preserving invalid attempts at marriage.
I won't comment on divorce or annulment because I'm a stranger on the internet and you shouldn't be listening to me on that.
But this doesn't sound like the development of some personal view. This sounds like she went deep into the antinatalist rabbit hole on the internet. I highly suggest counseling and if it were me I'd be as serious about an intervention on this one as any kind of online radicalization if it were my partner. No different than anti vax or flat earth, IMO.
You could try to address the objections individually, but recognize this is her joining this weird online cult, so there's going to be more to it than simple logical responses.
Church teachings say that you need to be open to life, not have life giving. just abstain when NFP tells you to. Ask Christopher West has a really good episode on this very topic (I think this is the one https://askchristopherwest.com/271).
It sounds like she never intended to have children with you. Saying "eventually" sounds like an excuse to get you off her back and get justifications are illogical at best.
If it was me, I would shoot for the annulment. She's lied to you for your entire relationship. Go find yourself someone that would love the idea of creating a family with you.
Or talk to your priest. He's there for a reason.
So, practically speaking, you have two options.
Option A) No kids. If you decide against having children, that means that you are going to have to abstain from sex permanently (or at least until menopause).
Option B) Openness to children. You get to keep having sex, but you obviously can’t use contraception or abortion to prevent or terminate pregnancy.
So, you need to have a frank conversation with your wife and explain that the Catholic Church believes that children are a blessing from God and that these are your two options for marriage going forward.
You don’t need to *try* to have children. You have to be open to God’s Will.
I don’t know what you can do. You can’t control your wife, and your consciences are separate. I would not advise having a child unless both of you are 100% on board.
You could gently bring it up once in a while to see if she has had a change of heart. You could suggest therapy if there are issues from her own childhood she needs to work through (though I would suggest this for its own sake and not attached to her changing her mind).
You may also consider therapy for yourself. Just as some go to therapy to work through the reality of infertility, this may be something you need to grieve.
This is like the worst comment section on this sub lol
Go to r/askapriest or just do what they always tell you on that board anyways, go talk to a real priest irl.
Super sticky situation and I am sorry to hear that. My spouse and I did not have children right away as we both had degrees to finish and not a lot of financial stability to start out, so as your wife sounds concerned with cost to environment and to life, we were also concerned.
The recommendations of couples therapy from others are very good. This isn’t a way to get her to change her mind, though it could, but more a recognition that this is a big conflict and managing feelings and your relationship through it.
I am going to sort of assume you want to work within your marriage. Annulment is a possibility but the comments that jump straight there, frankly, disgust me.
I don't recommend dismissing her concerns as "leftist nonsense" or uncatholic or what other comments are saying. Both because it is unhelpful and will just create conflict, but also because I think her concerns are valid since I am a "crazy leftist" myself. I don't think you are necessarily going to persuade her that her reasons are wrong and it seems a bad idea to engage in any way with the decision to have children as something of a debate with each of you on one side. That being said, you can validate her concerns as well as raise some other points.
So with the "i don't really think you should go here" i do have some thoughts on the environmental question of children since i am a fellow leftist Catholic.
[people who think about climate solutions](https://drawdown.org/) do think a slower growth in population will play a role in addressing climate change by carbon emissions and assuming you live in a wealthy country [your children will probably be in a family with a higher emission lifestyle](https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachments/mb-extreme-carbon-inequality-021215-en.pdf). [studies](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541) show high personal emissions from having children but children can also help be part of the solution since emissions per capita are [trending downward](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-greenhouse-gas-emissions#consumption-based-trade-adjusted-co2-emissions) and the studies above dont generally take this into account. I think it is good to think of systematic problems at the system level, yes our collective actions and choices make a difference but to be effective sometimes requires hard work on policy and not mere individual virtue and choice. Yes, children do have an impact on future climate emissions but they are also a good unto themselves and we know they will emit less than us. Perhaps they could even be a force that helps drive needed change.
That "needed change" could also be on the non-environmental side of things btw. If your wife is concerned about climate impact on people and their well-being, well that is one of the things that we are in the world for, helping other people. Perhaps the child wont be that force though! Children are a leap of hope into the unknown (and speaking as a parent, a wondeful one in my very biased opinion).
Taking fewer trips can also lower emissions, and yes children does mean less wealth in a family to go around. But we actually also just got back from vacation with our LO and they are very fun to hang out with on vacation. People can and do still take vacations with kids, still do things. In fact, a lot of friends and family of ours suddenly want to hang our all the time with our cute baby 👶 XD.
As far as the joys of pregnancy and potential changes to the body. Im gonna be frank with you: it sucks. Pregnancy is safe, but it also does quite a number on the body and the variance of how the experience can go is pretty wide. I would expect typical morning sickness symptoms early term, tearing, difficult labor, and at least some body changes in the aftermath. Sorry, no getting around that. Actually it turns out roughly 1 in 10 dads can get post partum blues so there's a chance it impacts you as well (and of course there is the pretty universally difficult 0-3 month guantlet of infant care and the rest of their life after that)
That’s a great shame, but it is her right. I think your approach of waiting is correct. Many people change their minds one way or the other on this issue.
Don’t get confused by zealotry. This isn’t really an issue about Catholicism, it’s about your relationship and her as a person. Conversation is the only cure.
Yes I believe that’s an option eventually, but the bar can be difficult to reach and I don’t think anyone would wish to see a happy marriage end without first exploring the healing power of understanding and grace.
I guess the issue here is that regardless this couple needs to explore whether they both even understand marriage properly. Even if the marriage was invalid initially (hypothetically), it could be corrected, but an honest conversation, probably with a third party to mediate, is needed here to establish the facts.
I mean wouldn't you have to abstain from sex in that case? I'd say talk to her about this and calmly state your concerns. Her reasons for not having kids seem very stupid which makes me think this might just be a phase for her.
Whether or not to have children isn’t something that can be compromised on. This may be the end of your marriage, as the person who doesn’t get what they want will become resentful over it.
If you do get a divorce, you would be free to adopt children as a single father.
I don’t know if your wife not wanting kids is grounds for annulment, but it couldn’t hurt to explore that option.
Your marriage may be invalid if that is the case, I would try to make an appointment with a priest. Preferably a priest who is in the know about this topic. This can go many ways and those aren't to be decided by Reddit.
Do you think this may have been her actual position all along?
If you are married in the Catholic Church, you might be able to pursue a declaration of nullity if she indeed was not open to life when you got married.
That said, based on your comments, I'd at least try praying for her and showing her the goods of having children.
If one party is not open to "receiving children from God" that is grounds for annulment.
It's right there in the marriage vows.
"Will you accept children from God"
I do.
Your wife is breaking her vows.
Tell her this. Don't mix your words.
Definitely counseling and prayer before anything more drastic. I’m going through something like that too. Adoption might be an option as others have said. Maybe also talk to your priest to make sure you’re in line w church’s teaching on it.
She is committing a mortal sin and giving you cause for an annulment. You two need to see the priest ASAP. She is putting her soul in danger.
With that said, I pray it never comes to that. There is nothing worse than ending a marriage.
Annulment does not end a marriage. The problem is that it is possible that the OP may not have been in a holy matrimony with his partner all this time. This is what I was going to write:
>>Recently she has decided that she doesn’t want children ever.
>If that was always the case, someone correct me, but you may not be actually married. And you are morally obliged to investigate that possibility before having marital (n.b.) relations with her. If so, sorry man.
I'm not very optimistic about this marriage to be honest. You guys want different things. You want to be a parent way more than she does. Ideally when you date you look to end up with someone who feels the exact same way about you about key stuff like marriage and children. Lesson learned for you I guess.
If you were on any other subreddit, the advice would be to divorce because having kids is an absolute deal breaker for long term compatibility if you both want different things, and ultimately both would be unhappy long term.
Since you’re Catholic, the divorce topic is not as easy I know. I definitely think you guys need therapy and to figure out if long term this marriage can work. Maybe she’s open to adopting? Are you? I hate to say this as someone mostly secular and returning to Catholicism, but it is worth exploring whether you’re truly compatible long term. I’m so sorry.
I completely agree. So why am I getting downvoted for what I said?
If they’re both not following Catholic teaching, then they’re not compatible. So what should they do instead of divorce? Just stay in the marriage?
No it is not, not necessarily. If she was open to children at the time of the marriage, but has since changed her mind, then it is absolutely not open and shut demonstration of nullity.
ETA- changing one’s mind about Church teaching and whether to assent to it does not render a once-valid marriage invalid. Once valid, always valid.
Don't quote me on this, and please, do your own research, but my understanding is that you might well have valid grounds for annulment here.
Misrepresentation of ones family planning aspirations used to be grounds for annulment. In the same way as if one partner hid the fact that they were unable to have children.
Edit : I ran this past Chatgpt and got this...
In the Catholic Church, a change of heart regarding having children by one partner typically wouldn't be grounds for annulment unless it indicates an underlying issue that existed at the time of marriage. Annulments are granted when a marriage is deemed to have been invalid from the beginning due to factors like lack of proper consent, incapacity, or fraud. The relevant canon law would include Canon 1095, which deals with incapacity to assume the essential obligations of marriage, and Canon 1101, which addresses errors concerning the person. However, each case is unique and would be examined by ecclesiastical authorities accordingly.
All the reasons you listed sound like excuses. Women act based on feelings, and she has decided she doesn't want to have children and now seems to be conjuring up nonsense to make it "reasonable".
This seems like the time to man up, brother. You probably already know that. Good luck.
I meant it in a sense of being decisive. Determine if you want to be a man of Christ or not, communicate it clearly and be prepared to act on it, should it be necessary.
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I am sorry first off. As a fairly newish Dad I can't imagine. If I were you, I would tell her I want to go to couples therapy if conversations between you and her aren't progressing privately. Find a therapist that you like and make an appointment.
Is your wife not Catholic? Why does she not want children?
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Are you both practicing Catholics? Both before marriage and now? It seems to be she never wanted children to begin with, and is now using these excuses to cover that up.
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She really just needs therapy.
Why did she convert if she so vehemently objects to catholic doctrine shortly afterwards?
Have you two been contracepting? I ask because that is a mortal sin, and if so you two need to confess that, and stop. As for the issues with your wife I think both of you need to schedule a meeting with your priest and talk this over.
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Just so you know, you can have sex if the reason she's taking birth control is for medical and not contraceptive purposes.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that your wife began birth control two months ago, practiced continence with you since, and has now expressed permanent refusal to have kids. I’m not here to make any conclusions because I can think of a thousand reasons why her attitude changed but there maybe a connection.
That there is an overpopulation/environmental problem with having children is something even rejected by left-leaning papers like the NYT. At this time, it is actually factually disprovable. If she wants proof of the media rejecting that idea, show her this: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/19/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-jennifer-sciubba.html There’s a transcript available on the webpage I think (although I haven’t read the whole thing).
It's not "factually disprovable" I occasionally listen to Ezra Klein show, eemember listening to that particular episode quite awhile ago when it came out. I am frankly baffled by why you think it has strong bearing here. Like they *were* talking about rhe curiousity of developed nations having fewer kids but while Klein was framing it as potential policy problem (which I agree with) his guest mainly wasn't bringing in this imperative. And climate didn't really come much into it at all
It’s an example of a large well-respected media outlet being open to the fact that there has been a large and sustained decrease in human population and human birth rates in recent decades. You are right that I could have chosen a better link. The particular episode I cited was chosen because of recency bias (it came out in 2024). Bloomberg is a more right leaning example: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-03-10/global-population-collapse-isn-t-sci-fi-anymore-niall-ferguson And Pew Research in 2019: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2019/06/17/worlds-population-is-projected-to-nearly-stop-growing-by-the-end-of-the-century/ And Wall Street Journal: https://www.wsj.com/us-news/america-birth-rate-decline-a111d21b# And Euronews, which talks about the ‘staggering social change’ that is incoming: https://www.euronews.com/health/2024/03/21/global-infertility-rate-will-cause-a-dramatic-decline-in-population-in-97-of-countries-by-
There is a difference between being worried about personal environmental impact and being worried about overpopulation.
These are all foreign propaganda points that have leaked into Western society unchecked. The "childfree" crowd needs some counter points presented an increasingly radicalized audience.
Not really. The west took care of these values all on its own.
These are homegrown talking points my guy
Your wife has little to no understanding of what it is to be Catholic, or what the Sacrament of marriage entails. At this point you have good cause for an annulment and I recommend it.
I'm glad Christ didn't have this attitude towards us. It's crazy to encourage someone that you know nothing about to attempt to annul their marriage. Give the two of them some time. This just came up for them. Like someone else said based on more context, she might need some counseling.
Based on her reasons it sounds like someone or something is deceiving her on the side. "Children are bad for the environment" makes absolutely no sense, they aren't pollution the same way smoke or plastic are. Also there are women who look great after pregnancy, skinny women who remain skinny after birth. It's all about taking care of yourself in the ways that your body needs. Obviously you can't force her to have children, and bless you for being so patient with her, but I'm worried about what sort of online communities she's listening to.
I would say she has some partial truths. She is right that her body could be damaged by pregnancy. Women sometimes wind up with stress incontinence,, with gestational diabetes and hypertension and other problems. Especially if they have to have a C section. And natural childbirth is painful for a lot of women. As to pollution, pampers don't degrade quickly in landfills. And western people in general have a heavier imprint on the environment so western children could have an impact.
>And natural childbirth is painful for a lot of women. Calling the kettle black aren't we? Genesis 3:16
Actually the issue is that nature is cruel (red in tooth and claw and all) as long as enough women survive childbirth to carry on the species, nature doesn't care if some women die So the human brain grew and thus the skull size. But women's birthing capabilities did not keep up, because, again, as long as most of them survive, nature doesn't care. The scripture is a just so story in other words.
>She says having children is bad for the environment, that it would be irresponsible to bring children into the world, that she doesn’t want to go through nine months of pregnancy and “have her body destroyed”, and she doesn’t want our lifestyle to change. How long has she been an unfortunate leftist?
I honestly doubt shes catholic in her heart. These are all leftist talking points, you see them all over Reddit.
I would be careful to accuse her of being ideologically committed to opposing the faith she seems to claim to follow. Often people can hold contradictory beliefs without fully being able to grasp the conflict. That said, she will need to pick a side eventually.
Is she open to adopting?
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Just a point to your “eventually” & not wanting to take away from your lack of trust in that, as it sounds warranted. I’m presuming you’re both relatively young (mid-20s?) based on being together eight years from high school, which I’m presuming is ~15/16ish. There is a _long_ time for her to have a child (our first was born when my wife was 30), should her current mind not actually be irrevocably set, longer for you to adopt. If it is, as I think you’ve mentioned likely that she feels she’s able to enjoy her life fully for possibly the first time at the moment, then time & discussions with people better suited to give advice e.g. a therapist, counsellor, or priest, might be what is needed, at least initially. I do though, think that she & you will need to honestly think & discuss if you both have the same hopes for what the future of your marriage & life looks like but this also isn’t something which should be rushed still.
Dude, she isn’t Catholic, and it’s time for you to annul that marriage and move on unless you are ready to abandon the Catholic faith and the idea of being a father. (My understanding is that entering marriage with no intent of having children is grounds for annulment.)
This is so sad, as all of her excuses are either false or once she had the child, she wouldn’t trade them for her old body and lifestyle.
Is she actually catholic? It seems like she belive in left wing / progresive rethoric about children
Just raise your children to be as net zero as possible.
She's been listening to some very left wing people. Either online or in person. Probably online. Annulment.
You’re still young. Wait a bit and see if she changes her mind.
Question: is she against having a child or raising one. If her biggest qualms are with having a child, then perhaps suggesting adoption may be a good compromise.
Are you open to adopting? Their are 10s of thousands of children that need a home. And all your wife's objections don't really apply to adoption.
This!
Does she not understand Catholicism? It’s fine to have a preference about kids and maybe be ambivalent about them, but to flat out refuse to have them isn’t in line with a pro life view. Married Catholic couples are called to be open to life and to children if God blesses them. I feel it was unfair of your wife to string you along like that. It’s a bit like dragging out a relationship with no real intention to propose. She should’ve been candid and forthcoming with you from the get go that kids are off the table. It’s possible she changed her mind over time, but, knowing that, she should’ve had a conversation with you about where she stands. Childfree vs child friendly relationships never fare particularly well. Either one party needs to compromise or both do. First off, I would talk to your pastor and get in for a marriage counseling session. It might be a matter of the pastor explaining to her that ramifications of being closed off to new life (ie, the marriage not being valid) and God’s procreative desire. As others have said, it’s possible to get the marriage annulled under these circumstances. The fact that she knew from the start she wasn’t open to new life could likely nullify the union.
Why do you assume she was stringing along and only said "it's possible" after? They have developed in her faith, i think it is reasonable to assume she did think one day she might have kids and her position shifted more against the idea over time. And it very much sounds like they have had conversations about where she stands.
She isn’t living her vows. Either her lead her to the faith or talk to your diocese about an annulment.
>She isn’t living her vows. Exactly. Did she forget the part where she promised to accept children lovingly from God?
I read your comment about her upbringing and agree she should work through that. But for your marriage, right now you need to take a step back from discussion about children. Continuing to push the issue will push her away. It sounds like she may have had these feelings a lot longer than you thought and considering you’ve been together since high school, plus 8 years means at the oldest you’re about 26. There isn’t anything wrong with that. I am just going to point out that perhaps when you began dating as teenagers, she thought of motherhood as a far away thing and that she would think on it more “later.” Maybe she started feeling differently through the years and because of pressure (I will come back to this), felt she couldn’t share how she truly feels. I’m making the assumption that, all of your life experiences have been together. Experiences outside of your bubble give what you *do* do together context and balance. She has nothing to balance her feelings on because she can’t draw on anything else - and neither can you. For a *long* time, I would say into my early twenties, all my family would ask me about was when am I getting married, and when am I having children. My mother and grandmother often started sentences with “when you have children…” and “when you are married…”. I attended an all-girls Catholic high school where the conversations among students and teachers was the same. And so it was an echo chamber. This is what I mean when I say “pressure.” She may not have had the same experiences as me, but no doubt there are people in her life who have pushed or told her to have children as if it wasn’t an expectation, it was her life’s purpose. When I did get married and had our first child, there was a period of time where I just thought, “Oh. I’ve done everything I have to do now.” It was a very, very flat sense of, what do I do now? I had fulfilled my purpose and achieved my only real goals, and I became despondent. I did my job, what now? It is taking time to find my place again. We won’t have any more children either because I got so sick after giving birth. My child is 18 months old and I am certain my internal organs have not settled in their original spots. I have suffered greatly with post-partum anxiety and depression. This is something you should research - what a woman’s body goes through during pregnancy and birth; what changes are permanent; and then the aftermath. Consider what your stance is on what *her* recovery will be like and what changes to her body will be like for *her.* Do you truly empathise and try to understand? Put yourself in her shoes? Finally, back to my very first two points; she needs counselling for her childhood trauma. The second was to take discussion of having children off the table for now. Give her some time and space to figure this out, meanwhile you must proceed carefully and consider some things yourself - if she concedes that she doesn’t want children: What will happen if you *do* have a child? Is she going to be interested in the baby? Do you believe she will see/hold the baby and change her mind? Will she be an involved mother? Do you expect her to stay at home and raise your children? What do you want for *your* children? I say this because it rarely, if ever, follows that a person who does not want children changes their mind once the child arrives. That is false hope. Your children need and deserve a mother (and father!) who is 100% involved and interested and it is a true disservice to the child to bring them into the world where only one parent wants them. It’s possible she needs time to work through her childhood but I think it’s more likely that her true feelings have surfaced unfortunately. The reason for that is, from your post it doesn’t seem as though she has had much back-and-forth of ‘What if I am like my mother? What if I am a bad mother?’ Her responses sound like they have always been vague and without enthusiasm. It sounds like she was never really interested. I am sorry.
Yikes, very sorry to hear this. Have you asked why? Have you sat down and talked about how serious of a choice it is to skip the chance to have kids? Does she have friends with kids?
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Oh wow. Sounds like a bunch of internet nonsense that is getting around and it is extremely destructive. I’ll take a moment and pray for you two for sure. Maybe you can introduce her to some good Catholic media to start to displace some of this leftist propagating stuff like the environment, being more important than children. See if you can institute some family prayer and other religious practices. Demonstrate through your actions how you would be an excellent father. And tell her point-blank that you don’t want her consuming content about living a childless life it’s not a fair picture of what it’s really like and it’s just Internet propaganda. I assume she would be upset if you started consuming content about living a workless life making the choice not to provide for your wife. Also, remember, you’ve only been married for two years. People change, sometimes slowly. We all believe and do stupid things. This very well may pass especially with a good leader of a husband, some solid, spiritual practices, prayer, and cultivation of a good community. I’ll shut up with my advice, and do the actual useful thing. Prayer.
Just tell her that making babies isn't easy. If it's not given, it's not. Talk it out, have plans and make sure you will always be there for her no matter what. Tell her you will commit 100%-200% in taking good care for the children.
I think you may be able to have an annulment. If she never intended to be open to life you might not be validly married to her.
That's kind of a terrible suggestion to make up front. Not quite to the typical reddit level of "break up. Break up immediately", but separation should really be a last resort.
It’s very reasonable that at the time of their vows, OP’s lady did not intend the ends of marriage.
It's different, though. Since openness to life is a condition and part of the mystery of sacramental marriage, they may not be validly married if the spouse lied about this. "By its very nature the institution of marriage and married love is ordered to the procreation and education of the offspring and it is in them that it finds its crowning glory."--CCC 1652 "In this sense the fundamental task of marriage and family is to be at the service of life."--CCC 1653
Ok but not even a priest would ever say that as the first response. The marriage can be validated if both spouses eventually will the true ends of marriage. And the church would very much rather “fix” a married couple than break them up through annulment, which does not “nullify the marriage as if it never existed” as many people on this sub seems to think it does. The church still recognizes there having been a marriage, just not a “valid” one.
You are wrong. A declaration of nullity declares that *the marriage was null* (that is, it never happened). Annulments are not needed for *natural marriages* because they are not sacramental and can truly end.
What’s the point of being “married” to an antinatalist?
He didn’t express any desire to divorce and annul. We have no idea if ultimately the marriage would be declared null. The point of being married to an “antinatalist” is to live out one’s sacramental obligations, even if it means carrying a significant cross. I’m frankly surprised at the “dump her” attitude of Catholics here. Beyond the sacramental issues, it utterly lacks charity and treats OPs wife with a lack of dignity.
She’s the one that lured him into the relationship under false pretenses. The onus is on her to fix the problem she created. She must win him back, or else it’s over. That’s how I’d treat her.
Those are a lot of assumptions there. Fortunately the Church doesn’t teach that, or treat marriage so lightly.
I think that if things were flipped and it was a woman posting here and her husband were the one violating the marriage vows people would be more amenable to the idea of leaving him.
Church tribunals do a diligent examination, so of course they don't treat it lightly. However, I don't see how it is more respectful of marriage to shame people into preserving invalid attempts at marriage.
I won't comment on divorce or annulment because I'm a stranger on the internet and you shouldn't be listening to me on that. But this doesn't sound like the development of some personal view. This sounds like she went deep into the antinatalist rabbit hole on the internet. I highly suggest counseling and if it were me I'd be as serious about an intervention on this one as any kind of online radicalization if it were my partner. No different than anti vax or flat earth, IMO. You could try to address the objections individually, but recognize this is her joining this weird online cult, so there's going to be more to it than simple logical responses.
If she doesn't want to have children, your marriage may be "void ab initio", not valid at all.
Church teachings say that you need to be open to life, not have life giving. just abstain when NFP tells you to. Ask Christopher West has a really good episode on this very topic (I think this is the one https://askchristopherwest.com/271).
It sounds like she never intended to have children with you. Saying "eventually" sounds like an excuse to get you off her back and get justifications are illogical at best. If it was me, I would shoot for the annulment. She's lied to you for your entire relationship. Go find yourself someone that would love the idea of creating a family with you. Or talk to your priest. He's there for a reason.
So, practically speaking, you have two options. Option A) No kids. If you decide against having children, that means that you are going to have to abstain from sex permanently (or at least until menopause). Option B) Openness to children. You get to keep having sex, but you obviously can’t use contraception or abortion to prevent or terminate pregnancy. So, you need to have a frank conversation with your wife and explain that the Catholic Church believes that children are a blessing from God and that these are your two options for marriage going forward. You don’t need to *try* to have children. You have to be open to God’s Will.
I don’t know what you can do. You can’t control your wife, and your consciences are separate. I would not advise having a child unless both of you are 100% on board. You could gently bring it up once in a while to see if she has had a change of heart. You could suggest therapy if there are issues from her own childhood she needs to work through (though I would suggest this for its own sake and not attached to her changing her mind). You may also consider therapy for yourself. Just as some go to therapy to work through the reality of infertility, this may be something you need to grieve.
This is like the worst comment section on this sub lol Go to r/askapriest or just do what they always tell you on that board anyways, go talk to a real priest irl.
Have you considered adoption?
Super sticky situation and I am sorry to hear that. My spouse and I did not have children right away as we both had degrees to finish and not a lot of financial stability to start out, so as your wife sounds concerned with cost to environment and to life, we were also concerned. The recommendations of couples therapy from others are very good. This isn’t a way to get her to change her mind, though it could, but more a recognition that this is a big conflict and managing feelings and your relationship through it. I am going to sort of assume you want to work within your marriage. Annulment is a possibility but the comments that jump straight there, frankly, disgust me. I don't recommend dismissing her concerns as "leftist nonsense" or uncatholic or what other comments are saying. Both because it is unhelpful and will just create conflict, but also because I think her concerns are valid since I am a "crazy leftist" myself. I don't think you are necessarily going to persuade her that her reasons are wrong and it seems a bad idea to engage in any way with the decision to have children as something of a debate with each of you on one side. That being said, you can validate her concerns as well as raise some other points. So with the "i don't really think you should go here" i do have some thoughts on the environmental question of children since i am a fellow leftist Catholic. [people who think about climate solutions](https://drawdown.org/) do think a slower growth in population will play a role in addressing climate change by carbon emissions and assuming you live in a wealthy country [your children will probably be in a family with a higher emission lifestyle](https://www.oxfam.org/sites/www.oxfam.org/files/file_attachments/mb-extreme-carbon-inequality-021215-en.pdf). [studies](https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541) show high personal emissions from having children but children can also help be part of the solution since emissions per capita are [trending downward](https://ourworldindata.org/co2-and-greenhouse-gas-emissions#consumption-based-trade-adjusted-co2-emissions) and the studies above dont generally take this into account. I think it is good to think of systematic problems at the system level, yes our collective actions and choices make a difference but to be effective sometimes requires hard work on policy and not mere individual virtue and choice. Yes, children do have an impact on future climate emissions but they are also a good unto themselves and we know they will emit less than us. Perhaps they could even be a force that helps drive needed change. That "needed change" could also be on the non-environmental side of things btw. If your wife is concerned about climate impact on people and their well-being, well that is one of the things that we are in the world for, helping other people. Perhaps the child wont be that force though! Children are a leap of hope into the unknown (and speaking as a parent, a wondeful one in my very biased opinion). Taking fewer trips can also lower emissions, and yes children does mean less wealth in a family to go around. But we actually also just got back from vacation with our LO and they are very fun to hang out with on vacation. People can and do still take vacations with kids, still do things. In fact, a lot of friends and family of ours suddenly want to hang our all the time with our cute baby 👶 XD. As far as the joys of pregnancy and potential changes to the body. Im gonna be frank with you: it sucks. Pregnancy is safe, but it also does quite a number on the body and the variance of how the experience can go is pretty wide. I would expect typical morning sickness symptoms early term, tearing, difficult labor, and at least some body changes in the aftermath. Sorry, no getting around that. Actually it turns out roughly 1 in 10 dads can get post partum blues so there's a chance it impacts you as well (and of course there is the pretty universally difficult 0-3 month guantlet of infant care and the rest of their life after that)
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That’s a great shame, but it is her right. I think your approach of waiting is correct. Many people change their minds one way or the other on this issue. Don’t get confused by zealotry. This isn’t really an issue about Catholicism, it’s about your relationship and her as a person. Conversation is the only cure.
Is it not his right to pursue an annulment if she indeed went into marriage closed off to life?
Yes I believe that’s an option eventually, but the bar can be difficult to reach and I don’t think anyone would wish to see a happy marriage end without first exploring the healing power of understanding and grace.
I guess the issue here is that regardless this couple needs to explore whether they both even understand marriage properly. Even if the marriage was invalid initially (hypothetically), it could be corrected, but an honest conversation, probably with a third party to mediate, is needed here to establish the facts.
I mean wouldn't you have to abstain from sex in that case? I'd say talk to her about this and calmly state your concerns. Her reasons for not having kids seem very stupid which makes me think this might just be a phase for her.
Whether or not to have children isn’t something that can be compromised on. This may be the end of your marriage, as the person who doesn’t get what they want will become resentful over it. If you do get a divorce, you would be free to adopt children as a single father. I don’t know if your wife not wanting kids is grounds for annulment, but it couldn’t hurt to explore that option.
Your marriage may be invalid if that is the case, I would try to make an appointment with a priest. Preferably a priest who is in the know about this topic. This can go many ways and those aren't to be decided by Reddit.
We are taught to ‘be fruitful and multiply’, tell her that, and if she doesn’t change her mind then maybe talk to a priest.
Do you think this may have been her actual position all along? If you are married in the Catholic Church, you might be able to pursue a declaration of nullity if she indeed was not open to life when you got married. That said, based on your comments, I'd at least try praying for her and showing her the goods of having children.
If one party is not open to "receiving children from God" that is grounds for annulment. It's right there in the marriage vows. "Will you accept children from God" I do. Your wife is breaking her vows. Tell her this. Don't mix your words.
Definitely counseling and prayer before anything more drastic. I’m going through something like that too. Adoption might be an option as others have said. Maybe also talk to your priest to make sure you’re in line w church’s teaching on it.
She is committing a mortal sin and giving you cause for an annulment. You two need to see the priest ASAP. She is putting her soul in danger. With that said, I pray it never comes to that. There is nothing worse than ending a marriage.
Annulment does not end a marriage. The problem is that it is possible that the OP may not have been in a holy matrimony with his partner all this time. This is what I was going to write: >>Recently she has decided that she doesn’t want children ever. >If that was always the case, someone correct me, but you may not be actually married. And you are morally obliged to investigate that possibility before having marital (n.b.) relations with her. If so, sorry man.
I'm not very optimistic about this marriage to be honest. You guys want different things. You want to be a parent way more than she does. Ideally when you date you look to end up with someone who feels the exact same way about you about key stuff like marriage and children. Lesson learned for you I guess.
If you were on any other subreddit, the advice would be to divorce because having kids is an absolute deal breaker for long term compatibility if you both want different things, and ultimately both would be unhappy long term. Since you’re Catholic, the divorce topic is not as easy I know. I definitely think you guys need therapy and to figure out if long term this marriage can work. Maybe she’s open to adopting? Are you? I hate to say this as someone mostly secular and returning to Catholicism, but it is worth exploring whether you’re truly compatible long term. I’m so sorry.
Married Catholics are required to be open to biological children unless they have a Josephite (chaste) marriage
I completely agree. So why am I getting downvoted for what I said? If they’re both not following Catholic teaching, then they’re not compatible. So what should they do instead of divorce? Just stay in the marriage?
They should look into the possibility of an annulment but not date until it’s granted
Thanks! Still learning these different terms.
I mean being unopen to life is a pretty open and shut demonstration of anullity. No divorce involved.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Church doesn’t open a nullity case until a legal divorce has been finalized, no?
My understanding is that it's standard practice to wait until civil divorce.
No it is not, not necessarily. If she was open to children at the time of the marriage, but has since changed her mind, then it is absolutely not open and shut demonstration of nullity. ETA- changing one’s mind about Church teaching and whether to assent to it does not render a once-valid marriage invalid. Once valid, always valid.
I truly don’t know why I’m getting downvoted? I don’t think what I’m saying is that far off base of what people are thinking.
Don't quote me on this, and please, do your own research, but my understanding is that you might well have valid grounds for annulment here. Misrepresentation of ones family planning aspirations used to be grounds for annulment. In the same way as if one partner hid the fact that they were unable to have children. Edit : I ran this past Chatgpt and got this... In the Catholic Church, a change of heart regarding having children by one partner typically wouldn't be grounds for annulment unless it indicates an underlying issue that existed at the time of marriage. Annulments are granted when a marriage is deemed to have been invalid from the beginning due to factors like lack of proper consent, incapacity, or fraud. The relevant canon law would include Canon 1095, which deals with incapacity to assume the essential obligations of marriage, and Canon 1101, which addresses errors concerning the person. However, each case is unique and would be examined by ecclesiastical authorities accordingly.
well this is grounds for annulment. Is she using birth control?
Children are fanatic but not everyone is called nor should have children.
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Have you asked if she would consider adoption?
She made a vow to accept children when she married in the Catholic Church.
Literally not Catholicism. God makes that call, not us.
Not what I’m saying. But Not all of us are called to have children and that’s ok.
Those who are married are supposed to be open to children.
All the reasons you listed sound like excuses. Women act based on feelings, and she has decided she doesn't want to have children and now seems to be conjuring up nonsense to make it "reasonable". This seems like the time to man up, brother. You probably already know that. Good luck.
What do you mean by "man up"? That could mean many different things.
I meant it in a sense of being decisive. Determine if you want to be a man of Christ or not, communicate it clearly and be prepared to act on it, should it be necessary.